Transcript of You Hit $5M, Then $10M. Why It Never Feels Like Enough (& What Actually Does)

The biggest misconception is that success will lead to happiness. I always thought that success led to happiness, and what I realized is that it's the other way around. You increase levels of happiness even by a little bit, you become more creative and more innovative. You become more engaged, more productive. Companies that enhance levels of well-being of their employees actually perform better. So there's a direct relationship between well-being and, and profit margins.

Today I got Tal Ben-Shahar with me. Some fun facts about Tal is he taught the most popular course in Harvard's history, 1,400 students. Israel's, Israel's youngest ever national squash champion at the age of 16, trained with world squash champion Mr. Khan at 17. I'm just going to say that because that's a tough name. Uh, created the world's first master's and PhD in happiness studies, featured on 60 Minutes, Daily Show, CNN, uh, PBS, and Mel Robbins, who I'm a big fan of. Carries a podcast pad— carries a pocket pad everywhere for his daily gratitude journal. Uh, I love it, man. Uh, Tal, I'm, I'm really excited because I'm a business guy, 20 years in, we'll do $410 million this year. And every day I'm searching for the next thing as a normal entrepreneur. And, you know, they say more money, more problems. I agree with that. And a lot of people, they're always saying these things like, when this happens, I'll be happy. When this happens, when I get in shape, when I go on that trip. And I think that's more of the entrepreneurial thing, but I guess— Let's just start out by telling us your life story and just who you are, what got you into the study of happiness.

Yeah, so what got me into, um, the study of happiness is actually my own unhappiness. So I was, um, an undergraduate at Harvard studying computer science, and I found myself in my second year doing very well academically, doing well in I played squash, doing quite well socially, and yet being very unhappy. And Tommy, it didn't make sense to me because everything that I had learned until that point told me that in order to be happy, you have to succeed. You know, I have to check a few boxes, which I did. And then, you know, happiness would find its way to me. That wasn't the case. I was, you know, not depressed, But I was very unhappy. And I remember one very cold Boston morning going to my academic advisor, my sophomore year, going to my academic advisor and telling her that I'm switching majors. And she said, what to? And I said, well, I'm leaving computer science, moving over to philosophy and psychology. And she said, why? And I said, because I have 2 questions. First question, why aren't I happy? Second question, how can I become it?

happier?

And these are, um, you know, the questions that have guided me for over 30 years now.

Yeah, well, I think this is probably going to be one of the best podcasts ever because I think, like I was explaining earlier, that we think these things are going to make us happy, like doing more, getting in better shape, making more friends, becoming great. Especially social media makes it really tough because we see the best in everybody's life and they're acting and only recording the great moments. When you won Israel's national championship at 16, and you said you were only happy for about 3 hours, and then it just went away. Tell me about that.

Yeah, so that was actually my first encounter with, or my first recognition that something was off. So I had trained very hard from the age of 11, basically at the age of 6 or 7, I decided that I wanted to be a professional athlete. You know, sports was my life. At about the age of 8, I stopped growing. So, I gave up the basketball dream even though I'm watching, you know, the Knicks. Jalen Brunson now and I'm saying, well, maybe. But I— so, I started playing squash and I dedicated everything to it. I mean, hours and hours and hours a day, you know, sacrifice. And I wasn't happy. Not because of the sacrifice, just because I was constantly stressed because I just didn't find the groove, I guess. It was all done for a purpose, and the purpose was winning a championship. But what kept me going was the belief, the deep belief that when I win, then I'll be happy. And eventually, I did win, and I was extremely happy. for a few hours and then back to step 1. Again, the same stress, the same pressure, only this time saying, well, it's not enough that I won the Israeli national championship.

Now, I have to be the world champion. And again, and then I went off and turned pro and played with the world champion. I never became a world champion, but I did win tournaments and the same pattern continued. Extremely happy for a few hours, sometimes days, and then back to step 1. After I did get— I got injured and switched from sports to academics. And then again, I had to win the championship. And for me, winning the championship was getting into Harvard. And I said, when I get in, then I'll be happy. And I did get in and I was happy for a couple of weeks. And that pattern continued. And I realized that I named it later, but I realized that what I was experiencing was the arrival fallacy. What is the arrival fallacy? It's the mistaken notion that happiness depends on arriving, getting somewhere, achieving a milestone. That when I conquer this mountain, that when I win this championship, that when I get into this school, that when I make this amount of money, that when I have this kind of relationship, then I'll be happy. And of course, what we're doing is constantly living in the future and forgoing the present.

And, you know, I wish I had an easy answer. Okay, just focus on being present and then you'll be happy. It's not that easy. And therefore, you know, I've been doing this for, you know, 30-plus years, trying to, um, to figure out how I can help myself, how I can help others become happier.

With you, early on mentioned you weren't depressed, you were just unhappy. And I'm just curious because you think of, um, I've never had depression and I know it's a real thing. I know it's, it's something chemically imbalanced in the brain. But what, in your years of experience and studies, what's the difference between just being always unhappy versus depressed? Yeah.

So, a lot of it has to do with the action that we take or don't take. So, people who are depressed generally are passive. So, they would stay home for days after days or really find it difficult to get out of bed in the morning. And they often won't. So, I didn't have that issue. I worked hard. I invested in my studies and earlier in sports. I did see people. I went out with friends. But there was always this— you know Pink Floyd's notion of being comfortably numb?

Yeah.

Which was preceded by Henry David Thoreau back in 1840. He wrote about— he wrote that Most men lead lives of quiet desperation. So, in a sense, I felt this quiet desperation, not depressed, not— I was never suicidal, but it was like blind and thinking, this is what life is all about? And feeling somewhat dejected and disappointed. And I wanted more. I mean, we all do. We do.

Yeah, but you know what I've realized with, with drivers, and I'll call us visionaries, and very— it's about 4% of the population— is enough is never enough. And you, you climb this mountain and you reach the pinnacle and you look up and there's another mountain. And I, I've seen Gino Wickman wrote a book about it called Shine. He invented EOS. And he said he made more money than he ever thought possible, buckets of gold everywhere. He sold his company and all he felt was emptiness. And then I heard this other story from a friend. He made $3 billion selling his company. I talked to him 3 years later. He said, I'd give back all the money to get my company back. Uh, you know, because sometimes you feel lost. Sometimes you, you identify your business especially entrepreneurs, with their meaning. And so I'm always saying, enjoy the journey, enjoy the journey. But sometimes I find myself like, got to hit this goal, got to hit this next, got to make our budget, got to make sure— sometimes I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth.

Yeah. So, Tommy, there is something to enjoy the journey, but there is also something to have goals. And let me explain this because this is so important and it's very much the essence of what a happy life looks like. So, there are 2 schools of thought out there. The first school of thought says exactly what we were talking about now. Achieve that goal and then you'll be happy. Get into that school, make the $3 million, buy that home, have this car, relationship, whatever. win this tournament, and then you'll be happy. It's all about the milestones, the achievement, the arrival. Now, of course, we know that that's not the case. We know it from personal experience. We know it from observing others. If this was the case, then Harvard students would be ecstatic. Olympic medalists would be the happiest people in the world. And wealthy people would be the happiest. people. And we know that that's not the case. So, it's not about achieving the goal. But that's one school of thought mostly associated, not only, but mostly associated with the West.

Yeah.

Then, we have the other school of thought mostly, not only, but mostly associated with the East. It's all about the present. Forget the future. Enjoy the journey. Be in the here and now. And there is a lot to it. But there's a problem here as well. And the problem is that as human beings, we need goals. We're not like a grazing cow. We're not like my cat who just hangs and is content. We need goals. We need those objectives. So, what happens? How do we reconcile? These 2 worlds, you know, East and West, future and present. What we do is we turn goal theory on its head.

How?

You see, we perceive goals as the end. So my goal is to make again that $3 million or to write that book or to win that championship. And that's the end. That's the wrong way of looking at it. We need to look at it as a means. A means towards what? A means towards liberating us to enjoy the present moment. And let me give you an actual example. So let's say my goal is to write a book and I want to submit it by July 1st, 2027. So I have this goal. Long-term goal, an objective, a milestone that I strive towards. Once I have it, I can let go of it. In what sense? I know why I wake up in the morning. You know, when I wake up from, let's say, from 9 to noon, I sit down on this computer and write. Now, when I write, I don't have to think about what I'm doing. I'm just doing it. I'm being present in the here and now. Or If that goal is to make X amount of money or start this business, I have this goal, it's there. But once I have it, I let go of it.

What it does is it liberates me to enjoy the day-to-day because I know when I wake up, I'm gonna go into the office, I'm gonna meet clients, I'm gonna have 7 meetings with prospective customers and so on. So I can enjoy the present moment thanks to the fact that I have a long-term goal. In other words, the goal of goals is actually to enable us to enjoy the journey. Because a person without goals, very difficult to be happy. You know, even a professional meditator, they have goals. You know, they want a better world, they want to be calmer, they want, uh, you know, to spread serenity. Whatever it is, we need goals. But once we have those goals, we need to realize it's not that important whether or not we attain them. What's more important is that we journey and enjoy the journey towards those goals, whether it's writing the book, whether it's starting the business, whether it's studying for an exam, whatever it is.

So you talk about SPIRE, which is spiritual, physical, intellectual, Relational and emotional well-being. And then MVI is minimum viable interventions. Can you walk us through— I'm guessing that came a lot in the philosophy and psychology side of when you entered into that.

Yes, exactly. So, um, so the SPIRE model is, uh, the model of happiness. You know, there are many ways to define happiness. The way I define happiness is through 5 elements of well-being. The S of SPIRE stands for spiritual well-being. That's about a sense of meaning and purpose. That's about being present. So, when I'm present to whatever it is I'm doing, whether working on my book or in an interaction with a friend, when I'm present, I'm experiencing spiritual well-being. When I do work that I find meaningful, I'm experiencing spiritual well-being. So, that's the S of SPIRE. The P of SPIRE is physical well-being. That's about exercise. You know, regular physical exercise has the same effect on our psychological well-being as our most powerful psychiatric medication. In fact, it works in the same way. You know, it releases the norepinephrine, serotonin, dopamine, all the feel-good chemicals in the brain. It's about nutrition that matters a lot for happiness. It's about rest and recovery. The number one reason why companies call me up today is because of the rising levels of stress in their organization. And the way to deal with that stress is not to eliminate it.

We can't. Stress is part and parcel of every life. It's to incorporate recovery. Because think about this analogy. You know, you're in the gym and you lift weights. You're stressing your muscles. Not a bad thing. When is it a bad thing? When you stress your muscles and don't have recovery. That's when you get injured. So stress with recovery actually leads to growth, whether it's in the gym physiologically or in life psychologically.

In life.

So recovery is an important part of physical well-being, Which is an important part of the SPIRE model of happiness. So that's the P of SPIRE. The I of SPIRE is intellectual well-being.

Intellectual well-being.

Intellectual well-being is about curiosity.

Curiosity.

People who ask questions are happier. They are more successful. They also live longer. So curiosity may kill the cat, but it helps us humans live longer. Then there is relational well-being, number one predictor of happiness. Quality time we spend with people we care about and who care about us. It's about kindness and generosity, which are very important elements of a happy life. And finally, emotional well-being, learning to deal with painful emotions and cultivating pleasurable emotions like pleasure, like joy, like—

Happiness.

like fun, like gratitude. Now, these SPIRE elements, what's important about them, it sounds a bit overwhelming. What? So, I have to find meaning and I have to exercise daily and I have to continuously study and I have to cultivate healthy— it's a bit much. So, what I've introduced is what I've called MVIs, which derives from the idea of MVP, not MVP from sports, but MVP from business.

Minimum viable product.

Yeah. And minimum viable product is what you can actually get out there, which is good enough to put out there in the world. In the same way, minimum viable interventions are the smallest interventions, the briefest interventions that actually make a difference. So, you know, for example, if we think about physical well-being, yeah, going to the gym for an hour is great. But periodically taking a minute to climb up and down the stairs or do your push-ups just between meetings, that goes a long way in cultivating overall happiness. Or expressing gratitude, taking a minute to focus on what I'm grateful for, that can go a long way. In, um, in contributing to our overall well-being. So it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Small changes make a big difference when consistently applied.

And so tell the audience— I guess you just did— but what are something we could do in all 5 categories in the next 60 seconds after this podcast? Obviously, you could go up and down stairs for the physical.

For the physical. For the spiritual well-being, you know, if you can start a meditation practice and, you know, do 20 minutes in the morning and 20 minutes or 20 minutes in the evening, that's great. However, even if you take a minute twice a day, a mindful minute where you close your eyes and take deep breaths all the way down to your belly, you know, for 5 to 6 seconds and then all the way out, just focus on the air going in and out. 1 minute, that can go a long way in literally resetting the nervous system, triggering the parasympathetic, the relaxation response, and helping us with recovery. So that's in terms of meditation. In terms of intellectual wellbeing, Put quotes on the wall that inspire you, you know, quotes by people you admire, or put pictures of people you admire so that you think about positive things. Eknath Easwaran, who's one of the great spiritual scholars of the 20th century, said, we are what we meditate on. So if you keep on reading quality, stuff, things that inspire you as opposed to doom scrolling, for example. That can go a long way in cultivating intellectual well-being.

Also, read books. You know what the best self-help books are, Tomi? The best self-help books are not the ones that give you the 5 steps to happiness or the 3 things you need to do in order to become successful. They're not my books either. The best self-help books are biographies. Biographies of people whom you admire because that's where we learn the most. That's when we get the reality of it. That's when we cultivate intellectual well-being and by extension, long-term success. Relational well-being. You know, take a minute to send your best friend or your partner or your kid a text message just saying, I'm thinking about you.

Yeah.

Or when you get home, just hug for a minute. Yeah, of course, if you have 2 hours for passionate lovemaking, amazing. But an MVI sometimes is good enough. Acts of kindness. So, Sonja Lyubomirsky is a psychologist at the University of California Riverside, has shown that people who commit to 5 extra acts of kindness a week, little things, doesn't have to be anything major, are happier, healthier, better off. In other words, when we give, we receive. So that's acts of kindness. And finally, with emotional well-being, a very simple exercise that Oprah introduced us to 25 years ago, keep a gratitude journal. At the end of the day, write 3 things that you're grateful for. At the end of the workday, write 1 thing that you made progress on. This is research done by Harvard Business School Professor Teresa Amabile on the progress principle. These are small things, MVIs, that can make a very big difference if we apply them consistently.

Are you a fan of a vision board where you've kind of got pictures and images, and maybe it's a picture on the ocean of you and your wife or kids or your dogs, or what? Do you think that that is powerful or no?

Yes, very much so.

Why?

Because the external environment primes us. So, if we feed it with quality, inspiring material, we will enjoy a more inspiring, high-quality life. Unfortunately, today, most of what we're exposed to is the news. And that's unhealthy in large quantities. So, we need to limit our news consumption, and create an environment that's inspiring. What does that look like? It's pictures of your loved ones. It's, you know, your favorite book. It's quotes on the wall. It's a place that you went to and brings up positive memories. So creating a healthy environment and, and this is important, every month or 2, changing it around. Otherwise, we get used to it and we don't see it anymore. We habituate. We adapt. So, constantly change the environment, even if it's a little bit. Change the location of a picture. Put a new quote up on the wall. Again, small things make a big difference.

Yeah, I just told my fiancée I wanted to remodel my office. It's been the same for 7 years. And it's a beautiful office. I love my office. I just need a new setting. You know, it's like, um, my pastor last— it was not this past Sunday but 2 Sundays ago, big, big church. And it's funny because he called me out. He's like, Tommy, get off your cell phone. But, uh, but he said, hey, for 6 weeks we're gonna do this. And I, I didn't dive into this, but he said no more going on social media unless it's for business, no more watching the news No more drinking, uh, you know, and he's laid out all these things. And I'm like, well, you know, it's kind of like— I'm a big fan of Atomic Habits and just, you know, slow change and putting yourself in the right setting. And I agree with what he's trying to do, but he said 6 weeks you'll be a new you. And I do believe that praying more gratitude. But I think it's kind of a big step for a congregation to say we're not going to do anything. Obviously, you know, he said no porn and nothing, you know, which is, which is easy.

But then no, none of— like, it's— for me, I kind of like watching what's going on in Iran. I mean, it doesn't depress me. I'm actually just curious about the world and gas prices and whatnot. But what are your thoughts if, if someone said for 6 weeks You're not going to go on social media doom scroll. You're not going to have any bad habits. I mean, is that really doable?

Um, doable, yes, but very difficult and probably unlikely. Now, how do we know that? Just ask people, um, about their New Year's resolutions. How many people actually fulfill their New Year's resolutions? Close to zero. In fact, on average, on the 17th of January, all New Year's resolutions are gone on average. So, you know, going to the gym and, you know, not being on social media, eating healthfully, whatever. There's a long list. Nothing happens.

Why?

System overload. Too much. And in bringing about change, less is more. That's why I'm a big fan of the minimum viable interventions, of those small changes. So, what I do recommend is picking one change and going all in. Charles Duhigg, who has a wonderful book on the power of habit, talks about keystone habits. What are keystone habits? Keystone habits are habits that affect many other things. subsequently. For example, let's say I don't exercise regularly, but I decide to start. And every day, 5:00 PM, I'm in the gym. What will that do? Well, first of all, it will change my diet because I'm not going to eat without restraint, you know, 2 hours before. So, it's going to change my diet a little bit.

Right.

Also, as a result of it, I'm going to be in a better mood after, you know, because of the norepinephrine, serotonin, dopamine rush. So I'm going to be nicer to my partner or friend and they're going to be nicer back to me. It also means I'll sleep a little bit better because I've exercised. So it will have an upward spiral effect. Similarly, with simple things like gratitude. How is it that 1 minute or 2 minutes of gratitude, how does it contribute so much to our life? Why? Because it starts and initiates an upward spiral. So again, choose one thing, whether it's the exercise, whether it's no social media for, you know, between whatever, 5 PM and 9 AM. Create those what I've come to call islands of sanity throughout the day. You know, Tommy, I often ask When I speak to an audience, I ask people the following. I say to them, do you think you're addicted to the smartphone? And almost everyone says yes. Would you like to get over this addiction? And most people would say yes. I say, okay. Now, what is the first thing you turn to in the morning? Almost everyone says, my phone.

Not my lovely partner, not inside to meditate. It's my phone. Now, if you are addicted to alcohol, an alcoholic, would you go to bed with a bottle of whiskey right next to your bed?

Of course not.

You keep it as far away from you as possible. And yet, we go to sleep with our phone next to us. So, that's the first thing. No, we have a box right outside this room where before going to bed, we put our phones there so that the first thing in the morning that I turn to is my lovely wife. And so that I meditate in the morning instead of going online. And if the world comes to an end, someone will tell me. It's okay if I don't check the news at every moment.

I love it. I love this stuff. I really, really do. Um, you gave me a lot of ideas. I, um, I try to— whenever I'm on a stage, which I'm usually on 2 or 3 a month, I say, everybody stop and do this for me. Everybody take out your cell phone. And I say, you got to do this because most of you aren't, but just think about the person at home. Maybe it's your loved one, maybe it's a kid, maybe it's a relative, mom or dad, maybe it's someone holding down the fort for your work. But just think about this person for a minute. Really think. Close your eyes. Think about it. And just text them and say, I really, really appreciate you, and I don't tell you that enough. And I'm telling you, I get 50 people to come up to me afterwards and they say, oh my gosh, that— they're crying. I've never said that before. I had no idea the reaction. And I said, hopefully you become addicted to it.

Hopefully.

You just take the time. And by the way, my philosophy, it's got to make it onto the calendar. It's just because if it's not on my calendar, it doesn't get done.

Not going to happen. Yeah, absolutely right. And, um, and again, Tommy, so putting it on your calendar and one habit at a time. Now, when can you move on to a second habit? When you feel that the habit that you have introduced is automatic. In other words, do it for a month. Do it for 2 months. After 2 months of going to the gym daily or every other day, I feel like it's pretty much automatic. Now, I can move on to the next one, getting the phone out of my room. Once I do that and I feel comfortable with that, then I'm going to 3 times a week text someone I care about. And yes, put it in your calendar and have it created as Just as it's an important meeting when you meet your boss, you put it in your calendar. No less important to put your habits down in the calendar. It's where you meet yourself.

Why is it so easy? I mean, I'm sure you could relate. You get into a habit and everything is dialed, and then all of a sudden something falls off. It could be anything. It could be you go on a vacation. And it's so hard to develop a habit, but it's so easy to go back to your old way. And I know a lot of it's the setting you put yourself in. If you put yourself around alcoholic friends, it's going to be hard to stay quit drinking. But what else is the reason that we fall off so quickly and it's so hard to jump back on?

Yeah, um, we fall off so easily, especially in today's world, because we have so many distractions. Daniel Goleman, the psychologist who brought emotional intelligence to the masses, talks about this age being the age of distraction. You know, when we— I don't know, 5,000 years ago, you know, when kids went to play, they played, you know, they had one game, you know, they played outside, you know, ran around, or, you know, even when I grew up, you know, I went on my bike, you know, played, you know, soccer outside. Today, there are so many distractions, especially online distractions. And the people who create those distractions are very good. In fact, they're brilliant. It's the smartest people in the world dedicated to keeping your eyeballs—

Captivated.

on that screen. Very difficult to deal with that. And what we need to do is create artificial boundaries. And an artificial boundary is between 5:00 PM and 9:00 AM, my phone is in a box or whatever it is so that I don't have these distractions. And then, it's easier for me to go to the gym regularly because I don't have a competing A very powerful competing distraction. You know, a good friend of mine is a child psychologist. And she limits the time that her kids can be on the phone. And her kids would say to her, you know, sometimes, you know, but Mommy, I'm bored. And her response is always the same. She says, that's okay, sweetheart. Just be bored with dignity.

Be bored with dignity. I love it.

And being bored is important also for us adults because when we're bored, very often we think of creative ways of dealing with it. We do things that matter as opposed to go to the easiest, the lowest-hanging fruit, which is usually social media or newsfeed. And don't get me wrong, I'm not against social media. I'm not against the news. I too am very curious. In moderation, though.

Yeah, yeah, it's good to set boundaries. One of my ideas that I haven't perfected yet is I only get to watch the news when I'm on the treadmill.

Hmm.

That's like, uh, I went to the Masters in Augusta this past year, and you're not allowed to have a cell phone, you're not allowed to bring a camera, nothing. And, uh, at first I was like, you know, there's a little bit of unrest because you don't want to walk into 25 text messages. And I'm not worried like the world's gonna fall apart, but it's just, it's kind of like a little bit nerve-wracking. Like, I kind of like to keep up rather than catch up. And, uh, but within 3 hours I'm having the time of my life. I mean, it was like liberating. And, uh, but you know, I just need to make these boundaries. And you know, they say the most important decision is the person you pick. In life. And it's important to talk these things through and do it together, because it can't be one person says, I'm not going to eat junk food, and the other person says, I am, and there's junk food throughout the house. So what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, so 2 things. First of all, you know, you said that after 3 hours you were having the time of your life at Augusta. No phone for 3 hours. And that's an important statement.

Why?

Because in order to enjoy, to get that dopamine rush from the phone, it takes about 1 nanosecond. You switch it on, you get that rush. It's immediate. There is no startup cost. But to get the benefits of being without a phone, maybe going to the gym, maybe reading a book, maybe just spending time with a person, the rush doesn't come immediately. You have to invest. And that's why we go for the quick fix. It's easier. Again, the low-hanging fruit, zero startup cost, immediate gratification. And what we need to do is say, okay, let's be a bit patient. Let's be bored with dignity. Let's do something that will inspire, empower, that will contribute to my long-term well-being, not just to my immediate spike, immediate high, which is temporary. So, that's the first thing, startup costs. The second thing that you said about doing it with someone, there's actually research showing that people who try to introduce lifestyle changes, lifestyle changes can be, again, no phone between certain hours or regular exercise or eating certain food and not eating others, any lifestyle change. If you do it with someone, meaning an accountability buddy, and it can be your fiancé, it can be your, you know, your best friend, or it can even be someone who you interact with as an accountability buddy online.

But doing it with or having a personal coach, doing it with someone increases the likelihood of compliance with the change. by over 200%. Not 5%, 10%, 200%. So yes, it is very important who you choose to do it with.

You know, I got to know, and he became a good friend, and we still talk regularly, is a guy named Robert Cialdini. He is the psychologist that talks about influence. And one of my favorite forms of influence is commitment. And this wristband says, keep your commitment. A commitment means I wrote it down, I signed off on it, I showed everybody, I told everybody, I posted it online, I yelled from the rooftops, and it's obtainable. It's not a commitment that I'm gonna get down to 7% body fat because that's not realistic, but it's a commitment that I'm gonna better my best. And I— and then the things that I always tell the people that I work with, there's 1,400 people that I work with, I say, you're going to keep your commitment, right? You're a person that keeps your commitment. And when you commit to something, it means you're going to give it everything you've got. And so we've got these 15 minutes every week where we write down our commitments, but I still don't feel like we've mastered it.

Yeah. So one of the things about commitments is, again, Less is more. So, writing down those long lists, they become like New Year's resolutions, too much system overload.

One thing.

Yeah, one thing, 2 things at most. The second thing is, and you're doing it, wear a reminder. So, I often wear a bracelet as well. Well, and I learned this from Sarah Norum. She is the author of a wonderful book called Appreciative Coaching. And in Appreciative Coaching, Sarah Norum talks about Rory, who's one of her clients. And Rory just started a business. And he said to her in one of their coaching sessions, he said, Sarah, ever since I started the business, I'm always distracted. I'm not present. I'm not in the here and now. And she said, okay, here's what I'd like you to do. On your handwatch, he was wearing a watch, write the letter N, the letter N with a marker. Why N? Because N stands for now. So every time he looks, what time is it? Oh, it's now. And it's a reminder.

Reminder.

to be present. And ever since I read that, I started, you know, I don't wear a watch, but I started wearing a bracelet. And it reminds me of different things depending on what habits I'm trying to integrate into my life. So, for instance, recently I was wearing it and I wear it for 30 days at a time and then I take it off because the change is important. 30 days at a time, I wore it after reading James Nestor, book Breath. And in it, James Nestor talks about the importance of nose rather than mouth breathing. So, every time I saw that bracelet on my hand, it reminded me to shut my mouth, nose breathe. At other times, I wore it and I felt like I was impatient with my kids. I was traveling a lot. I was stressed, impatient. Not the kind of father I want to be, not the kind of father they deserve. So I wore a bracelet very simply to remind me to be patient, gentle, kind. Patient. Every time I saw the bracelet, patient, gentle, kind. And that reinforced that behavior. So having reminders, and again, a reminder, as I mentioned earlier, can be a picture on your wall.

It can be a screensaver.

Right.

It can be your smartphone reminding you to whatever, go exercise or, or write a text to a friend. But having these reminders is key to fulfilling our commitments because we forget.

I like what you said, uh, you could wear the bracelet but probably change it up every 3 months because it's a certain time it becomes— you become numb to it. I created this group of accountability partners. And I've always said you could make time for anything. There's 168 hours in a week. And I found myself planning a wedding, planning a sale of a business, building 3 houses, speaking on stages, doing 2 podcasts a week. And I said, guys, we're gonna have to do this on the weekend. And they said, dude, we have families. And I said, well, I can't do it during the week. And then all of a sudden it just started to get less and less and less. Now we made it. through April. But I just— it's like the commitment accountability partnership fell apart, and that's embarrassing. But I need to rebuild it and do a better job because I was the one supposed to hold it tight, right?

And, and, you know, Tommy, this is, you know, what I spoke about earlier, that the issue, the challenge in life is not the stress. The stress is fine. You know, I experience stress, you experience stress, You know, unless you go off to the Himalayas and meditate for 3 years, you'll have stress in your life. And that's okay. The thing though is that alongside this stress, we need periods of recovery, just like in the gym. You know, you work out in the gym, you stress your muscles, but you need a day off or you need 2 minutes between sets.

Right.

Or you need once a year a longer break. And so as long as we have those, those breaks, those recovery periods, those islands of sanity, uh, we're, uh, we're gonna grow, grow from stress rather than be harmed by it.

This is a trick question, but I'm sure, uh, you'll enjoy it. Does happiness lead to success, or does success lead to happiness?

Yeah. That is the question that essentially defined the first few years of my journey pursuing happiness. Because as I mentioned earlier, I always thought that success led to happiness. And what I realized through personal experiences, through research, is that it's the other way around. You increase levels of happiness even by a little bit, you become more creative and more innovative. You become more engaged, more productive. Companies that enhance levels of well-being of their employees actually perform better. So, there's a direct relationship between well-being and profit margins. There's a direct relationship between how much happier I become to how much more successful I become. whether we're talking about a 10-year-old student in school or, uh, you know, or a 43-year-old entrepreneur.

Oh, I love this. You know, we, we talk a lot about balance, and people talk about work-life balance and balance, and I always talk about my 6 Fs: family and friends, fitness, faith, uh, financial, fun, and future self. And Dan Thurman wrote a book, Off Balance on Purpose, and there's seasons of life. If I'm working, building a business at a younger age, I'm probably not working out every day, praying every day, and being the best dad. I mean, and I just— I'm curious your perspective of balance because it's like this buzzword for the last decade is, I just want to be balanced, I just want this balance, I want— And work-life balance, I'm like What, what, what, what? You're never gonna be— I'm always in the pursuit of, you know, I hate to lose more than I like to win. And I'm like, man, that's, that's tough that you want so much balance because no one's gonna— your kids aren't gonna get any of your great time if you're praying and working out every day. Like, I don't know, what do you— what is your take on it?

Yeah, so, so I think about this a lot because, you know, what, what I did when, um, when my kids were, uh, especially when the second one came, I realized that I wasn't getting everything done. Before that, I would work 14 hours a day. My wife and I would spend a lot of time together. We'd spend a lot of time with our friends. I would develop new businesses. So many things were— I was exercising regularly. I was doing yoga regularly. And suddenly, I have in no time, I have 2 kids, one after the other. One after the other. And suddenly, there is no time for everything. So, what I did was I actually sat down And did an exercise where I wrote what would my ideal life look like. And I wrote down, you know, I would do 90 minutes of yoga a day. I'm a big, big proponent of yoga. I would go to the gym, you know, 5 times a week. I would see friends, you know, at least 3 times a week. My wife and I would, you know, spend so much time together. I would spend so much time with my kids.

I would, of course, sleep 8 hours. You know, sleep is important. important, etc., etc., etc. Now, before I knew it, I would have had to fit 48 hours within 24 hours. Not realistic. Not going to happen. And then I said, instead of the ideal life, let me think of a good enough life. Now, to many people, good enough sounds defeatist. I'm compromising.

I'm compromising.

But if I could have an ideal life, then I would. I would do all these things, but I can't. So what is good enough? Good enough is 30 minutes of yoga a day. Good enough is going out with friends on a date once a week. Good enough, let's say, is 3 times at the gym. Good enough is 8 hours or 10 hours a day of work as opposed to 14. And I started to create this good enough and I keep on creating it because today, you know, when the 3 kids are essentially independent, I can change the balance to something else. But the key point here is that rather than looking for the perfect, looking for the good enough. And good enough by definition is good enough. And again, at some point, you know, good enough for me would be to focus mostly on family. At another stage, it's mostly on my work. So, it changes over time. But to change that mindset from perfect to good enough, that's important even though it does sound like compromise. But there's no choice because there are constraints in reality. There are 24 hours a day no matter how you turn it.

Uh, a guy I've got to know over the last year, his name's Rob Schneider. He's a comedian. He's in all the Adam Sandler movies. Funny guy. And he always talks about these, and I just started wearing it again. I've got a Whoop. Some people use a Fitbit, some people use an Apple Watch. And he said that's BS. Don't wear 'em. It's depressing. It's, it's like, you know, because you'll wake up after a day having a few martinis and it'll tell you you're gonna die. What are your thoughts on these? To kind of keep— I'm a big keep track type person. I like to know, like, me and my niece are having a step challenge. So after this, I got to go walk a mile, and she's beating me, but she's off school for the summer, so she's got an advantage. But what are your thoughts?

Yeah. So first of all, it depends. There are some people who swear by it, other people less so. In general, measuring is important because we know that people who measure their steps take more steps. We know that people who focus on the calories are more likely to lose weight. The thing, though, is that sometimes it's not fun. So what I recommend again is Use it, and then if you don't need to, stop. You know, so if you're walking enough without the stepper, stop using it. If you feel like you're regressing, you know, put it on again. But in general, there are many people who are getting their 7,000 or 10,000 or even 15,000 steps a day thanks to the measurement.

Well, I got 14,800. She got 18,000 yesterday. Uh, how do you build happiness? And this is like a really important question because I'm thinking about this and it's my job as the leader and I try to, um, act by example. Uh, but how do you build happiness into a team culture without feeling like it's forced corporate wellness program? You know, like, it's like—

Yeah.

I hate that when the HR gets up on one of my meetings and goes, we're gonna go over and do this, this. And it's like, man, nobody wants to do that shit. What are you talking about? It's so unfun. Like, breathing exercises don't sound fun, but when I guide them— because I'm a blue-collar guy, like, I'm getting up there. These guys are restless sitting in a chair for an hour. So how do you make it enjoyable for a company?

Yeah. So first of all, offer options because there are some people in the company who would love to do a 20-minute meditation over lunch. And for other people, they'd rather pull out their hair than sit still for 20 minutes. So have options. Second, and that's very important, and Tom, you said you run these sessions leading by example. So, You know, if let's say a CEO says, you know, it's really important to have time for recovery and I want you to all go home at 6 o'clock and spend time with your family. But that CEO stays until 9 PM.

Yeah.

Their words are going to fall flat.

On deaf ears.

As Ralph Waldo Emerson, the philosopher, said, what you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you're saying. So, Gandhi's idea, be the change you want to see in your organization. Lead by example. Go to the gym. Take employees with you to the gym if that fits. Yeah. But walk the talk, in other words.

I'm going to go through a speed round with you because I know we got to get going here. I've got Probably 7 questions. So what's the biggest misconception about happiness that you see in high achievers and entrepreneurs?

Yeah, um, the biggest misconception is that success will lead to happiness.

Yep.

Instead, what they need to understand is that having that goal is important, but once you have that goal, just focus on what you're doing in the here and now. And Tommy, let me add one more misconception. Another misconception is that a happy life means being happy all the time.

Yeah.

Not realistic. A happy life includes within it many unhappy moments. And what we need to do is accept and embrace painful emotions because they're part and parcel of every life.

Yeah. Let me ask you something. I hear this all the time. Live for today. What would happen if you were gonna die in 30 days? What would you do? Make the most out of today. Live like it was your last day. And I'm like, well, my 50-year-old— I'm 43. My 50-year-old Tommy wouldn't be very happy if I was living like that.

You know?

So I always ask myself, what would 50 or 60-year-old Tommy want me to be doing right now? I mean, I'm planning on living. I mean, I, I think that's the hope for everybody. So, and there's people that just live and die about that, that those, those quotes of just live it like it's your last day. And look, I, I enjoy that, but I mean, if it was my last day, I probably wouldn't be at work, right?

Yeah. So, um, one of my teachers, uh, Ellen Langer, she says that instead of live every day as if it's your last. Try to live every day as if it's your first. In other words, with freshness, and see if you can experience things as if for the first time. So this, I think, is probably better advice. You know, in life, it's about When are we happiest in the moment? When we're doing something that we deem meaningful. So again, for me, let's say, you know, writing this book. So getting up in the morning and writing a book for me is very meaningful. And this way I'm bringing together the moment, I'm enjoying myself, and I also have a future goal. So I'm not living just for the future and I'm not just living for the present. I'm synthesizing.

the two.

So working towards a meaningful goal that brings together present and future, pleasure and meaning.

You know, I'm the happiest when I'm laughing so hard that my abs hurt, uh, when I'm with the right people. I— and this is, uh, this doesn't have anything to do with this next question. I want to be very careful here, but how— what is your thought on psychedelics?

Yeah, that's, um, That's something I think about a lot. So, there is some research that is extremely compelling about the impact of psychedelics. So, for example, people who have had—

PTSD.

Post-traumatic stress disorder for literally decades suddenly go through a session with psychedelics, gone. So, we cannot ignore it. Psychology is not allowed to ignore such a powerful intervention. At the same time, It's a very powerful intervention, and therefore, um, we need to be careful about, uh, about how we use it. We're, we're just in our infancy. There's going to be so much more work on it and research on it, and, and it's a good thing that, uh, that there is. I want to add that in addition to psychedelics, I would also emphasize in research on breathwork because there's a lot of growth that we can experience through the old techniques of breathwork. And, you know, Wim Hof introduces it.

Yeah.

And, you know, pranayama in yoga, there is a lot on it. So yes, psychedelics. Yes, breathwork. Yes, find new ways of interventions. It's not just about, you know, talking about my troubles that will make me feel better. Sometimes it will. Sometimes that's not enough.

All right, let's do this real quick. This is random. I'm just gonna name a bunch of things, rate them 1 out of 10. Breathwork?

9.

Cold plunge?

9.5. I do every day.

Oh, 9.5, more than breathwork. Okay, what about sauna? Yes.

Sauna, 8. I do the sauna and then I go into the cold plunge. That's a daily routine for me. And, it's great. I mean, it's great. It calms me down, helps me sleep better after a workout, great for the muscles. Yeah.

Okay.

Definitely recommend.

Cardio? Cardio versus— and then I'm going to go into hard workout, like muscle workout. So cardio. Yeah, yeah.

Um, both, absolutely. When it comes to cardio, also HIIT, high-intensity interval training. Yeah, very important. So we need, we need that fluctuation.

What about, um, you know, this, this newest one is the, the chamber, uh, not the cryo, but the one that, that everyone's talking about for the cellular Regrowth. I was thinking about buying one of them. The, uh, they're always— it's the anti-aging chamber. I can't think of what the cryo— uh, I'll think of it in a minute. What about— not cryotherapy, it's— what about red light?

Um, yeah, you know, I read the, the research on it. Allegedly better than regular, uh, sauna. I don't think it's such a big— makes such a big difference. So the key here, the fluctuation in temperature, very hot, very cold. When we learn to deal with these fluctuations, we become more resilient, not just physically, but also psychologically. And therefore it's important.

I'll think of it. And then what about sleep? Where do you rate that?

Yeah, very, very important. Going to bed at the same time every day. Having said that, not becoming obsessed with it because becoming obsessed with sleep actually hurts sleep, actually stresses us. But yes, sleep is important. And if you can't sleep, you know, 8 hours a night, then, you know, 7 is good enough.

What about reading?

Personally, a big fan. And not just personally. I think one of the very unfortunate facts of modern life is that people don't read enough. Reading is a form of meditation, especially when you read with intention. By the way, similarly with prayer, reading a prayer day in and day out, focusing on the meaning of those words, that's a form of meditation. I go back to Eknath Easwaran. We become what we meditate on. If you meditate on high-quality reading, you will become high quality.

The first lesson in happiness is to give yourself permission to be human. What is so hard about that for leaders and entrepreneurs and business owners?

Yeah, it's tough for leaders, entrepreneurs. It's, in general, tough for high achievers. Because, you know, only recently we're beginning to see top athletes opening up about their mental health. It's not because athletes didn't have mental health issues. They always did. They just didn't open up about it because they needed to keep that facade of perfection. And we pay a very high price for that facade. Giving ourselves the permission to be human means giving ourselves the permission to experience sadness and anger and frustration and anxiety. and fear. These are natural human emotions. And the paradox is, Tommy, that when you do not give yourself the permission to be human, these emotions intensify. They grow stronger. So, if I say to myself something to the effect of, you know, Tal, don't be sad. You're the happiness professor. Immediately, my sadness will skyrocket.

Yeah.

Whereas paradoxically, when I say, okay, I'm sad. It's human. then it will leave just as it came. It will not overstay its welcome.

You've said rejecting our— well, you just kind of went into that, but, uh, you wrote The Pursuit of Perfect about how human perfectionism destroys people. And I think a lot of people are in the pursuit of perfection. Not me, but how should people I mean, look, I like to win, but no one's perfect. So how do people that are perfectionists handle that?

Yeah, so a couple of things. First of all, we need to reframe success, or specifically reframe failure. This is work done by Adam Grant in his book Originals. He shows that the most successful people are also the people who have failed the most times.

Yes.

They're the people who put themselves on the line the most times. And, you know, it makes sense. I mean, think about, you know, I'm watching the playoffs now in basketball. You know, how many times do these basketball players miss?

A lot.

So that they become better. One of the mantras that I repeat to myself, to business people, to my kids is learn to fail or fail to learn. And this is a very important mindset shift. Entrepreneurs know that. They understand that failure is, again, part and parcel of success. Second, that very simple exercise of appreciation, of saying thank you for the things that we have, that's critical for dealing with perfectionism because we learn to embrace rather than reject what we already have. We learn to, um, embrace it rather than take it for granted.

This is powerful. I got 3 questions that I ask every single podcast guest. Uh, what's one piece of game-changing advice you wish you knew in your 20s?

Um, The idea of the permission to be human. I was so hard on myself thinking that, you know, I need to figure it all out and I need to get to a stage where I'm no longer experiencing unhappiness. It's a futile, futile battle. Accept that painful emotions are part of life.

So, as far as habits go, what part of your routine sets you apart from most other people that you think make you successful?

Yeah, again, this is not something that, you know, I have a monopoly over. I'm not the— I'm certainly not the only one who's doing it because I learned it from others. But I'm very, very consistent about doing quality work in the morning. You know, so I draw on the work of Jim Loehr and Tony Schwartz from their book, The Powerful Engagement, where they talk about 90-minute sprints. So I would— I will sit for 90 minutes in front of this computer and write or create curriculum. And then I would take a short break and then I would do another 90 minutes. And I have 2 or 3 sessions a day, but every day, 6 days a week. And by doing that, you know, I get a lot done, you know, whether it's writing books, whether it's creating material for the courses or whatever it is. So the consistency of it.

And then finally, if you had to start over, you still got all your business contacts, all your associates, nothing else but $10 million. $10 million in your account, no investments, no, you don't own a house. What are you doing with the money?

Um, I like this question. Um, So, yes, I do. I would buy a small house, not a big one. I would create the Happiness Studies Academy, which is what I have right now. This is— I spoke earlier about meaning. This is what gives me a great deal of meaning, knowing that I teach hundreds and thousands of students around the world who then go and transform their families and their businesses. and their communities. So creating an organization that spreads happiness.

I love it. Well, I'm happier for being on here. I just— the final questions are, you wrote 8 books, I believe. Is there a book that if someone was listening, you'd be like, this is the book? And obviously I've read a lot of biographies and I love that advice, but is there a book that you just You're like, if you're gonna read a book, this is the one to read.

Yeah. So, can I give you 5?

Oh, I love it.

All right. Because I want to give you one for each one of the SPIRE elements. Okay. So, for spiritual well-being, which is about a sense of meaning and purpose, Man's Search for Meaning.

Great book.

Viktor Frankl.

Read it twice.

For physical well-being, it's the book by John Ratey, Spark, about the importance of exercise. For intellectual well-being, Cal Newport on Deep Work. For relational well-being, David Schnarch, Passionate Marriage. And for emotional well-being, I would go for Marva Collins, The Marva Collins Way. She's a schoolteacher who, if schools follow her lead, She'll Transform the World: The Marva Collins Story.

Tal, if somebody wants to reach out to you, you're a busy man, you're writing books, you're teaching, you know, what's the easiest way to, to find you?

Uh, the easiest way is, uh, on my website, talbenschahar.com, and I always respond. Not on the same day, usually, because I don't check my emails every day, but I always respond.

And then I'll just give you the opportunity. We talked about a lot of stuff here. I've got notes on, uh, and they're not the most organized notes, but, uh, I'm gonna allow you to, to close us out. Anything that we may have not hit or you want to leave the audience with?

Yeah, just, um, remember that, um, becoming happier is, um, very similar to cultivating any other skill. It takes work. So, people would often say to me, Tal, I bought your book. And I say, wonderful. Step 1. Then what? And some people say, I read your book. That's great. Step 2. Not enough. The question is, did you implement? Why? Because it's like saying, I read a book about tennis. That doesn't make you a good tennis player. You have to get on court and practice. It's the same with happiness. And with happiness, it's about introducing those rituals, those habits consistently in our life. Small things, they don't have to be major, but do them consistently. Whether it's the gratitude, whether it's the movement, whether it's the hugs or the acts of kindness, whether it's the reading and rereading the quotes, whether it's the deep breathing and, uh, and meditation. Small changes make a big difference when consistently applied.

Bravo. Well, this was amazing. I appreciate you spending your, your Friday afternoon with me, and, uh, it was absolutely phenomenal.

Thank you, Tommy. Had a lot of fun. One of your Fs.

Yes, yes, it was.