Transcript of Why Most Remodelers Keep Paying for Demand They Could Be Creating for Free New

Many of them try to solve their marketing problems strictly in the checkbook. They try to Google ad campaigns, buy leads from lead aggregators, try to advertise in print media or television, radio. That, that's all they're doing. We're gonna continue to help contractors stick with the fundamentals, the stuff that's guaranteed and proven, going out and knocking on doors, working live home shows and events.

All right guys, welcome back to the Home Service Expert. Today I have a legend. In the lead gen door-to-door canvassing, home show and event sales team training, remodeling consultant industry. His name's Tony Hody. He's based out of Cleveland, Ohio. He's widely regarded as one of the foremost authorities on lead generation and residential remodeling industry. Tony began his career knocking doors as a part-time student at Ohio State and worked his way up to every channel of the business— canvassing, call centers, home shows, retail, in-home sales. Before launching his own remodeling company and eventually transitioning into full-time consulting. Tony and his team train individuals and companies nationwide and internationally to generate more appointments, handle leads more effectively, and grow their business through proven repeatable systems. Tony, I got so much more to read, but how you doing today?

I'm doing great, man. Thanks for the introduction. I appreciate it.

Yeah. So this episode, the thesis is most home improvement companies are leaving money on the table because they rely on one or two lead sources that don't have the systems to maximize any of them. In this episode, Tony's gonna break down how remodelers can diversify their lead generation, build high-performing canvassing and event teams, and convert more of the leads they already have without just throwing more money at digital ads. So let's just talk about the beginning, man. Walk us through what, you know, your, your personal story and, and what you're excited about.

Yeah, so my personal story, I got a part-time job for beer money as a student at The Ohio State University, and it was, you know, just supposed to be a part-time job, but I fell in love with it and really learned the business. I learned how to go door-to-door around job sites and generate leads. I learned how to work home shows and events, other live events like fairs and festivals. I sat in the call center in the wintertime sometimes when it was too cold and frigid to get out there and knock on doors. We would resurrect old dormant inquiries over the phone. And I even worked in retail stores like HQ and Builders Square. That was Home Depot and Lowe's before those transitioned over. So that was my start, you know, and I learned the business. I actually went back to my hometown in Cleveland and decided, you know, I was going to start my own home remodeling business. After my first short stint in the Fortune 500 world. I thought once you finished college, you were supposed to, you know, put on a suit and tie and go work for a Fortune 500 company.

And so I did that for a short spell and did well at it, but I just didn't enjoy it. And so I wanted to get back into the home remodeling industry. And so I did at the age of 23 and built up a multi-million dollar business pretty quickly on the principles I had learned in Columbus. And, but, you know, it didn't take long before I crashed and burned because it's not just skill that gets you where you need to go. I actually, you know, by the time I was 28, 29, I had filed bankruptcy personally and for the business. And my, you know, my character just could not withstand the, you know, the first big storm we came across, which was, you know, lending was backing out of the the home remodeling industry. We sold a lot of payments at that time, and, you know, 2008 was starting to start— starting to show its ugly face a little early in Cleveland and just couldn't, you know, weather that storm. And, you know, I went on the road for 10 years helping companies around the country with the one thing I was good at. I had no choice but to travel around because I didn't have the credit and the financial, you know, foundation to be in business in the home remodeling industry.

So I had to just go work as a trainer all over the country, and I learned what to do, you know, what not to do, some of the mistakes I had made, and decided, you know, after 10 years of doing that, I wanted to go back and, and open another remodeling business and this time do it right. And you You know, I've been doing that. We're about 10 years in business this year and do well over $10 million in sales in my retail business, Window Expo and Bath Expo. And so that's kind of my story in short. Obviously a lot of lessons, you know, learning from lessons and helping others. I actually helped myself.

Um, I really— Sean McGraw is a good buddy of mine, and he kind of plugged me into a lot of the home improvement space. And I'm just fascinated, you know, we're order takers in the home service space. Like, I dominate Google. I got one of the gals here, Joy Hawkins, she's in town visiting right now in the other room. I just, you know, whether it's PPC mailers, like We do a lot of TV, radio. We service 25,000 homes a month. But I was always jealous of Home Improvement because I met a guy named Matt Essler and he's like doing like well north of a billion dollars in windows. And he's like, yeah, I got the formula, dude. He's like, we don't have to rely— we go get the business when we want it because we can get as much business as we want. And I'm like, man, that must be nice to be able to go hunt versus I farm, at least. Sure, they come to me. And I just think it's fascinating, whether it's door-to-door events and just the way it runs. I mean, in a city like Phoenix, they could do an event every single day.

Sometimes they're at a high school football game, and I'm like, that's crazy to me. And it's, it's hard. It's way harder, in my opinion, than doing what I do. But we're booking a 92% booking rate. We got a high conversion rate, a good average ticket for our industry, and we control the lead cost. But I don't know how to get the demand.

And yeah, you gotta, you know, create it, you know, uncover it, get out there, you know, be proactive. Um, what your industry is based on, what we call on-demand, you know, when, when the, you know, the hailstorm hits, you know, the roofers, um, you know, chase the storm, follow that storm, because the demand already exists in that market. Um, and that's a little different, you know, when someone's garage door spring breaks and they need someone to call. And you guys have done a phenomenal job being that brand that they want to call, that brand they trust. But creating demand is entirely different, you know. And it's funny you mentioned Matt Essler, you know. I, I helped his brother John get started in the canvassing business a long time ago up in New England with the first Renewal by Andersen franchise. Um, and, uh, yeah, they've just done an incredible job dialing it in and taking it to another level since that time.

So, so where does somebody create Go ahead.

Creating demands, a different, a different story altogether. You know, it's about proactivity. It's about going to where your, um, where your target audience is. And in our case, they're— they live right next door to the job we're doing, right? And so it makes good sense just to knock on the door next door, on either side, across the street, and just have a conversation about, are you having the same challenges? Are you having the same problems that your neighbor was having? You know, whether it be a roof, whether it be replacement windows, garage door, bathroom, you know, just having a conversation and uncovering need.

So you just knock on the door and say, look, we're next door at John Smith's house, and you know, your houses were probably installed at the same time. He, you know, John's having these concerns and issues. What is that What does that conversation look like? Because when I answer my door, I'm kind of like— it's not like the '80s when we were excited to answer the front door. Now it's like, who's coming? Who's this solar or roofing company or the pest control or the window company coming?

Yeah. Sebastian Maniscalco does an incredible bit about what it's like to answer the door.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. He's like, ooh, somebody's at the door. The whole family comes up. Now you're like, Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking about.

Yeah, it starts early, you know, it starts with the dress code, believe it or not, you know, because you need to inspire people to come, you know, to the front door. And now with Ring doorbells and different things like that, they might be, you know, on the community page or the mom group letting everybody know you're coming before you come. Um, so, you know, you have to have the right dress, you know, we're big fans of the yellow construction vest for professionalism and to let people know that you're not hiding. And let's be honest, it also lends to that curiosity. Is this the sewer company? Yeah, is this the cable company? Are they cutting down a tree in my yard? You know, and so that helps a little bit, right? Um, having that big lanyard ID badge to let people know that, you know, you've got identification, that you've got all your credentials. That you're, you know, supposed to be there. And then, you know, as the old saying goes, how much does a polar bear weigh, Tommy?

Enough to break the ice.

You got it. Yeah. So a good icebreaker is important, right? So at the front door, we like to start with what we call a public service announcement, which is, hey, just want to apologize for any disruption or commotion we may have caused. I'm not sure if you saw the trucks. In the driveway or the big sign out next door, but, uh, we're doing some work for one of your neighbors, blah blah blah. You know, typically when we are working in the area, we have people stopping by asking for business cards. We have dog walkers, you know, people peeking through the blinds. And so as a courtesy to those folks, we're just leaving some information behind.

Where it's all about disarming Yeah, no, it's, it's— I see companies now. I had, um, David Royce. He built a business to $500 million strictly on door-to-door pest control, and he just had the magic formula. He got obsessive, and they did an hour meeting every morning. They highlighted the wins. They trained, they trained, they trained. It started out with summer programs. And I'm like, this could work for garage doors. I'm like, I know I've got 100 guys doing door-to-door. We're just putting a sticker in telling them, call us when you need us. You're going to need us soon because your neighbor needed us. I haven't done the lead turnovers very well yet, and they're a different type of sale because they don't necessarily— we're used, we're spoiled. We go in and there's something broken and they're inviting us in. Uh, and, and I know that's a program. What's that?

That's a big part of what I did when I traveled frequently to help people start canvassing programs. At first I would help them making the leads, right? And we would do a good job of that. However, part 2 is making sure the call center and the turnover from— of that lead is handled properly. And then part 3, of course, is the sales reps really understanding that this is a more nebulous lead, that you might encounter some resistance early on, and that, you know, you have to learn how to handle that if you're going to convert that type of lead. So getting the sales teams acclimated to you know, a lead that's manufactured is really important. A lot of them, um, kind of hit the panic button when they hear things like, well, the only reason we agreed to the appointment was because, you know, the kid at the front door was so pleasant, or the, you know, the person at the front door, you know, was— it was 90 degrees that day, I felt bad for them, you know. And that really isn't the case, you know. If they go all the way through the, uh, through the process of confirmation and everything else and you know, there's some legitimacy there, but it's a matter of taking that spark of an interest and fanning the flames and turning it into, you know, something more.

Oh my gosh, my brain is spinning so much right now. I just— I love when I get on a podcast and it's just ideas are flowing. And, uh, uh, I was just thinking, like, you know who Todd Peterson is? Have you ever heard of Vivint?

Yes.

They're like, look, we just want to give you this security system. All you got to do is pay for monitoring. So they give the equipment away, they put a 5-year contract on it, and that's like gold. I like— if you could take down all the guards and be like, it's free, I just think it's, it's a much— and what you do is just say it's an easy monthly payment. And, you know, I think that, uh, I, I'm proud to be a blue-collar guy. I think this day and age everyone's saying learn a trade. Even Jensen the CEO of NVIDIA said, get into the trades, you know.

Yeah, absolutely. No, it's— the opportunity is endless, and especially when you're creating your own leads, because there's, there's no limit, you know. That's the one difference, Tommy, that, you know, there's only so many people that are going to need a new garage door today in any given market, you know, no matter how big or small that market is. And, and that's a finite number, right? However, the number of people that, you know, eventually want to replace their windows or eventually want to remodel their bathroom is more people than we could ever get to. So it might as well be infinite.

And, you know, my mentality's changed over the years of going and owning a market. I think a lot of companies, they like to have kind of a popsicle stand in a lot of markets. And when you sit down with private equity venture VC, whatever it might be, they go, how much market share, how much of the total addressable market do you own? And it's like, man, you look at Groundworks, they own like 20% of certain markets of all the foundation repair. So like, I think that scalable systems And it's very hard to get to that level. I mean, it is very, very hard to really own— like, you recognize that name, and you could do like a study to show how many people actually recognize the brand. And what do you think about traditional TV, radio, billboards, bus stops?

Oh, I think it's fantastic, and I think it supports, you know, your, your ground game. You know, it supports, you know, all the hustle. You know, you have more credibility when they recognize your brand. You know, so I think it's a one-two punch that can really be unstoppable because, you know, you're getting those inbound calls. But however, when the phone doesn't ring for various reasons, you know, it could be economic reasons, could be something going on in the news that's distracted consumers, it could be seasonality. You know, whenever that phone stops ringing, you know, our bills keep coming. And so, you know, we have to find a way to get out there and create demand, uncover demand, and be proactive, not reactive. I mean, my whole philosophy as a, as a, as a human being is, you know, to be self-reliant, you know. And how can you be self-reliant when you're waiting for the phone to ring?

I mean, there's lots of searches, and when you get good really, really good at standing out in a busy world. Um, and it's, it's this omni-approach. And absolutely, but I'll tell you, the door-to-door guys, most of them, that's what they rely on. I mean, I work pretty close with Lenny Gray. He wrote Door-to-Door Millionaire. Uh, really cool guy. I really— we're like brothers, man. He stays in my house and, and he's just— I don't know why he's stuck with us because, you know, he's not making a bunch of money. Uh, He, he, you could get $500 grand to build a program. I mean, it, because it's the, it's amazing what can happen. But, um, there's, there's the door-to-door game. I don't think any of home service have really, really moved over to the home improvement methodology of running the events. And like, because in a summer there's so much demand for HVAC, you're working your guys already 14 hours a day, you're working them 7 days a week. But in the shoulder season, there's not much. So that's when that would probably make sense. But that's when they rely on their service agreements and they sell them for a little.

They got a programmatic price book that moves down.

You just kind of— you, you struck a chord with me there because, you know, whenever demand is not, you know, necessarily year-round and people try to, you know, create programs temporarily while they need it and they let it fizzle out when the demand comes back, right? There's just no urgency for them to maintain it.

It's very difficult because you're like, man, the air— the HVAC unit just went out. I need somebody out here right now. I got a family. It's hot or potentially cold in the winter. And they're— you— it's very difficult to have capacity planning. And that's the hardest thing that I explain to people. They're like, man, the home service industry is killing it. I go, I'm graduating right now, today, 48 students. Next month, 70. What does 70 students mean that are going out of the field? It means they need to generate 200 new leads the day they get back each day, right? 200 new leads. Try to— and not, not 300, not 150. And that takes a lot of planning. And because, look, you don't know what you're going to be up against. Maybe they're going to want a new door, maybe they need an overhaul, maybe they just need a simple fix. So kind of guesstimating the time and keeping their schedules full and the dispatch side of it it's pretty complicated. But what you guys do, I mean, bathroom remodels and kitchens and windows, and it's like, and those are some serious, those, but the ticket's so much bigger.

My blended ticket's $1,200.

Yeah, that makes a big difference. You know, I work with metal roofing contractors and, you know, their average ticket is north of $50K. And, you know, it corrects a lot of poor performance quickly. So, you know, you could go a week, you know, without a, as a door-to-door canvasser without much luck. And then all of a sudden, boom, you know, you've got a 6-figure sale that corrects everything quickly.

And that's what, I don't have that. That's why, I mean, I say this non-egotistical, but there's no really number 2 in our industry. And everybody's like, we're gonna get in the garage door industry. I'm like, this is 2 decades in the making. Like we've worked with the manufacturers. We got 70 new trucks gotta show up with 70 guys, 70 new iPads. We gotta train them from soup to nuts. We gotta have distribution in that market and we gotta have the leads. So I, I really think it's interesting. I want to pivot a little bit over to events. What do you— if you had to choose, which one do you like better? Like being at every event, at every major thing in a market, or would you rather be door-to-door?

You know, I'm a door-to-door guy at heart, but the truth is more people will adopt events into their culture. More companies are going to be able to create a culture around event marketing than they will be able to create a culture around door-to-door. It's just, you know, the path of least resistance.

What separates the companies that crush it at the events from the ones that walk away empty-handed?

Culture eats strategy for breakfast. And so, you know, when it comes down to it, the companies that have their pre-shift meetings and, you know, everything rises and falls on leadership. So, when you have your pre-shift meetings and you have your, you know, your morning huddles, and you have, you know, getting— giving people the opportunity to get the marbles out of their mouth and practice pitch before they get to the consumer, right? You don't want to be practicing on the consumer, you want to be practicing on your peers. And so that, that's consistent across both door-to-door as well as, you know, event marketing. You need to have that culture where these marketers are, you know, really celebrating yesterday's victories, learning from yesterday's losses, and, you know, getting pumped up from— for today's opportunities.

Do you— when you're hiring door-to-door, is it just a game where you just need to hire more and more and more and figure out who's going to be the— is it just a lot of attrition?

There is obviously quite a bit of attrition with door-to-door canvassing. However, you can certainly reduce that by really learning to seek out extroverts that are naturally going to do this, you know, and looking for people that, you know, you can role-play with them in an interview, people who are willing to do that sort of thing. You know, you can have shadow days where people come out and shadow you in the field to make sure this is something they want to do. Those are things that a lot of HR departments kind of, well, how are we going to pay for that? Do we have to bring them on board? And, you know, they'll cause a lot of speed bumps for that sort of thing. But, you know, in the end of the day, there is a way to, you know, really interview and profile and get a better candidate to reduce attrition.

I'm very interested in hearing more about that because the shadowing It is. It's like, what do you pay? What happens if they get hurt at the job?

Um, you know, you can use gift cards, you know, to let them know, hey, you're— we're not going to waste your time. Um, if you come in and shadow us for a shift or half a shift, um, you know, we're gonna give you a gift card as an incentive or a reward for completing that shadow day. But I think it's a wise thing to do so that you don't go through all the trouble of onboarding somebody and then find out when they actually get out in the field This isn't for me. You know, we have retail stores with showrooms inside them in some of the big box stores like Walmart, like Meijer grocery store, you know, Costco, all those types of things. And we love to have our interviews at those stores because we can say, well, this is what the job is. Um, you know, it's December. Let me see you hand out 3 candy canes and engage some people. Shopping. I want to, I want to see if this is something you feel comfortable doing, something you like. And, you know, go about it that way so that you're not just bringing somebody in talking about the job.

Give them the opportunity to see the job. Give them the opportunity to walk the walk.

I freaking love that. Do you find that, that I've heard of a lot of people working in Walmart. I just, I don't know if that's the right demographic versus a Costco. What are your thoughts?

So, you know, the bigger the ticket, the more likely you're going to want to be in Costco versus Walmart. But, you know, Walmart has some really nice stores depending upon where they're located. You just have to kind of do your homework, drive around the parking lot, check out the cars, take a look at the shoppers. Are they homeowners or are they tenants? You need to be fishing in the right pond.

One of your case studies showed a company going from $1.7 million to $8 million in event lead generation. What were some of the key levers that moved the needle that dramatically?

Well, leadership, number one. Um, you know, having good lead-by-example leaders that, you know, can train on how to do it, recognize when people are not doing it properly, people that have kind of grown up through the ranks, right? That's number one. Number two is, you know, having the ability to find good events. You know, you need to be able to profile events as well as you profile individuals. You know, you need to be able to look at this and say, you know, we just did a Senior Mind Challenge, for example, my team here in Cleveland. Not my idea, it was their idea. They found this opportunity with senior citizens that want to stay sharp, and they do trivia and other games that, you know, for entertainment and for, you know, just general wellness and vitality. And it's turned out to be an outstanding opportunity where customers who are ideal for bathroom remodeling— they want to stay safe, they want to stay in their own homes. They want to bathe with dignity. You know, that turned out to be a great opportunity, but they profiled that event. They were looking for senior expos, they were looking for things of that nature.

And so finding the right events, um, I think is important, and learning how to do that is another lever.

I wonder if there's a play there, being selfish here for Garage Door, is that like obviously Life Alert and other things, like someone's got access to the home to get in real quickly, like whether it's medication, because you could open, like if you got a kid, they could open your door if they're, they're got access to the MyQ. I just, I like to think differently, like go about things like, what's a way that no one's ever looked at this situation for your industry? That's why every time I go into, like, I go into a steakhouse and I'll learn something that I could apply to the company. I'll be like, wow, the manager just stopped at the table. They called me the next day. To make sure I had a good experience. Like, that kind— but that's why we paid $1,000 for me and my fiancée to go to eat there. You know, I paid for that experience, but I was glad to pay for it. And that's why they've got a 3-week, uh, you got to set an appointment to go there. You got to set a reservation. And people say this all the time, like, well, how much is it going to be?

And it's like, I was telling somebody earlier, I was like, you could buy a coffee pot, coffee maker for $29 at Walmart., or you could go buy like a Miele for $5,000 installed into the wall at your house that makes the best espresso. And how do we compare home service companies? Just with this— there's this guy that does this on Instagram, and he's like, uh, he goes to the fast food restaurant, he's like, yeah, I brought my own chicken nuggets for you guys to just put on the deep broiler, I bought my own. And he's like, I want just— I don't need a full cola, just no ice, and I just want to pay half for it. And like, I don't know why our industry— I guess there's a lot of competition and because it's blue collar, but so many people like, how much is it going to cost? Well, you want us to show up the same day. You don't want a felon in your house with your family. You want to make sure there's not a lot of warranty calls. And if there is one, we're going to show up. And you don't want us to show up every other year when something goes wrong.

I've bought the cheapest at my first house and everything needed to be replaced. And I don't think experienced shoppers— that's why the senior citizens are so good, because they're like, I've owned 5 houses. I know what happens the time I got the cheap one. So, and I don't think you got to be like super expensive either. You just got to give the options instead of ultimatums.

Yeah, I've seen that post that you're talking about, and, uh, you know, that's actually been going around for years. People have done different versions of it, but, you know, it boils down to the fact that we've trained the consumers that we're willing to negotiate. You know, they don't walk into doctors' offices and try to negotiate. They don't walk into attorneys' offices and try to negotiate. They do it with contractors because they've learned they can get away with it.

Yeah, I guess we've kind of built that into it. And I don't know why the, the vast majority— like, believe it or not, most home service, home improvement is still 80% fragmented. I mean, PEs, private equities here, but there's so much opportunity. And I, I see these Facebook posts about our company, they're like, look at that, it was $2,400 for a repair that should have cost $700. And I'm like, but you guys work from your house. Your wife answers the phones for free and you're still running the calls. Like, you don't own a business. Every time you go out of town, you lose money. You can't keep an employee and you can't afford to pay them six figures for sure. And like, they pride themselves on, on being able to charge less and not have any employees. I just, I never understood that.

Yeah, you see it on Facebook Marketplace every day, you know, where people are complaining about the fact that, you know, they gave a deposit and, you know, Someone got started on a bathroom and then, you know, they haven't been back. It's taking way longer than they thought. Problem after problem. And, you know, when you pay that much, you know, you're going to run into those problems. The contractors have the best intentions, they really do. They don't realize that they don't have the capacity to go from one side of town to the other to service their customers. They don't realize they're undercapitalized and they may have to tear something out and do it over again. Um, you know, so they have the best of intentions, but the homeowners need to be educated on the fact that, you know, the most expensive home improvement is the one you have to do twice.

Oh my gosh, I love that quote. I need to write this down. Most expensive home improvement is one you do twice. Um, you know, I, I hear this all the time. You know, we coach a lot of companies. We coach about 500 at the Home Service Freedom, and every single person I meet— and I meet them all the time— they're like, I need more leads. And then I say, what's your booking rate? What's your conversion rate? What type of leads are your money leads? Who's your avatar? And there's so much leakage in the company and they're not doing anything with their past customers. They're not checking in on them. That, by the way, 15% of any client you have in your database is probably moving or moved to a new home at any given moment. So, sure. I mean, what do you say to somebody that says, if I just had more leads?

Man, most people think they need more leads, and they need to handle the leads a heck of a lot better than they're handling them. You know, lead handling is, is an art form. And, you know, just A lot of contractors, remodeling businesses, don't understand how much leakage there is, how many holes they have in the bucket. You know, everything from that initial inquiry where, you know, they're just not fielding the initial inquiry properly. You know, common things that people ask, you know, "Can you give me a ballpark on a project like that?" You know, they just don't have a systematic approach for handling an objection like that, and it can kill a phone call instantly. And how often is that happening? In some cases, over and over again in a business in a month. And then, you know, when they call to reschedule, for example, no problem. You know, you know, they don't even necessarily— if they call to cancel, don't ask for a new date. Uh, when would be a better time for you? They don't have a basic form of just, uh, objection handling, you know. So is this something you're ever gonna do?

Well, yes. Okay. What type of timeframe do you have in mind? Let them kind of define that. And then, is that timeframe based on some estimates or expert opinions that you've had, or are you still kind of speculating at this point? Right. And just funnel them back down to, well, yes, we're definitely going to do it. Uh, we're definitely going to do it within a reasonable time in the near future. And no, we don't have any expert opinions or pricing information yet. Well, wouldn't it make sense for us to stop out and help you with that?

Yeah.

And it's all done with questions, right? So you're leading them and you're doing it their way.

We've got a little bit of a cancelation problem because if I'm more than a day out and you're stuck in your garage,, you could only cancel a certain amount of time. Like, I could reschedule the ones that aren't super needy, like, I need this done today. But we're like, it's busted, I need you out here. And so we're doing— right now we're working on a shift that starts at 6 AM, and then we got a shift starting at 2 that works to 10 PM, just to be available when the clients need us. So that way, we— instead of running emergency jobs, we could work till 10 on the schedule. We could get out there first thing at 6 AM.

And that's— yeah, I said earlier, it's an on-demand business.

And by the way, transitioning the culture to starting at 6 and working till 10 is not easy to do because when they're used— they're used to working 8 to 5, it's like— but now you get both decision makers there. Like, those are the best jobs after 5 and before dad leaves or mom leaves for work.

Yeah, Power Home Remodeling has been in the habit of running sales calls on Sundays for years and Top closing, top closing percentage any day of the week.

What are most of the common and costly mistakes companies make when following up with leads?

Well, first, they don't do it at all, right? Second, they— second, they don't have, you know, a database that's really well organized where they can sort and filter, you know, call maybe in one zip code so they can legitimately say, hey, we're going to be back out there and surprise tomorrow. We have several appointments with your neighbors. You know, we'd love to see you while we're there. There's a number of things you can do if you're organized, if you have that. And you know, you have to be timely. You know, the older the colder. You know, once these leads fall off, you know, you need to get back in touch with them quickly. Many of them don't even have a simple Constant Contact or a Mailchimp type of, um, you know, drip campaign that could, you know, without a human being could get some of these back onto the schedule.

Is there any special technology that you're using? So you got like a Mailchimp, which is— I mean, I was on Mailchimp probably a decade ago. I'm sure it's made a lot of advancements, but we're running 30+ softwares now. I mean, we've, we try to do the best of the best, and unfortunately there's not a one-size-fits-all. So we've got, we got the camera system, the vehicles, we got the scorecards, we've got Intact, we've got ServiceTitan, we've got LACE for the call center, we've got some follow-up stuff like Chirp. It's just like it goes on and on and on and on. And I always say we're a technology that has garage doors. Is there anything that you're like, you have to get set up?

You know, the way you described it is really the way most of the industry is doing it. They keep finding new solutions and they keep adding to that tech stack. The challenge is they're not always managing that change very well. They're not always, you know, preparing their team to handle it and maximize it. So in many cases, that additional technology becomes something else they can fumble over in the process. You know, I've joked with people often that, you know, my tech stack is a clipboard, a can of Red Bull, you know, my cell phone, and a pen., right? Because that's all you need to make a lead, right? But, you know, you have to really be careful about adding that. I know you guys do a great job with it. You're familiar with technology. You have, you know, a team of people that can help onboard, you know.

It's complicated. We do a damn good job though compared to most.

Definitely. Yeah, we see people struggling with it quite, quite frequently. They're just, they're not using it to its not even close to its full capacity. But there's just— there's so many good things. You mentioned a number of them, um, but it's a matter of finding that right mix for your business. You know, the— the— you mentioned it earlier, the home improvement industry and home service is fragmented. You know, I work with clients that just do roofing, some just do windows, some just do, you know, bathrooms, and then I work with some that do all of that, you know, and more.

There's, uh, you know, potentially in the future I'd like to own the garage, but we're so good at one trade. We've got the flywheel going. It's entrepreneurial to want to do more, but it's like, man, there's so much more market share. We own less than 2% of the market share in the United States. We could easily get to 10% and not change a thing. But then again, I'm like, cost per lead's going up. I get the customers through financing, which we call promotions, and they say, you know what, for an extra $20 a month, yeah, let's get the floors done, let's go ahead and do the epoxy on the floor, or you know what, let's go ahead and do the storage, we could really use the space in our garage. And it's very appetizing. And I think that's probably one of the biggest problems for entrepreneurs is they go— they haven't mastered their first trade, and— or they expand and they go, hey, I want to move into other markets like you. And I'm like, you better own your current market. Like, you think it's easier to grow the secondary market that you don't live in, your kids didn't go to school at, that you go to church at, that you know everybody and you've worked with everybody?

I'm like, but we're just so ambitious and we think we could take on the world, and then you fumble everything. I mean, how often do you see that?

Very common. You know, you have to get better before you get bigger. Um, you know, we've And I think it boils down to the fact that, you know, a lot of times we just don't want to do the difficult work, Tommy. We don't want to, you know, face the fact that, you know, I— what I need to do is start a canvassing program to really further saturate this market. What I really need to do is start an event marketing program to further saturate this market. What I really need to do is get my call center, you know, fine-tuned. It's easier to do the things that are, are forehand than it is to work on our backhand.

Yeah. Megan does a pretty good job with some of those things.

Yeah, she's an incredible coach and great partner.

So when did you guys meet?

I trained Megan.

Yeah.

So it's a pretty funny story. I was called in to help build a canvassing program at a company in West Michigan. She was there and had never done that before. She'd done a lot of other marketing but never gone door to door before. So You know, I was always the type of trainer that went out in the field with people and went door to door, had them shadow me at the front door, really like to lead by example. And she respected that. And, you know, so we built a really good rapport through that. And then on the way home in the canvassing van, we hit a deer. And it was a pretty funny story.

Yeah, she's a class act. What's one, uh, what's one thing most remodelers can implement tomorrow to immediately improve their lead conversion rate?

Get on a proven process, you know, a disciplined process. You know, a lot of people think, you know, if you look at the in-home sales process as one example, you know, you'll get people that say, well, I don't do all that stuff, I don't high-pressure my customers, I don't, you know, and what it really boils down nothing to do with that. They just don't want to be disciplined. They want it loose so they can't be held accountable, you know, and that's a problem. You know, it's the same thing with answering the phone, you know, oh, I don't follow a script, you sound like a robot. You don't have to sound like a robot. You know, you can, you can sound great and prepared and, you know, having a process that's defined. It's just a matter of being disciplined. And so it's, you know, they try to make it either or. You're, you know, you either, you know, either you're high pressure or you wing it. No, there's a way to be in the middle where you're not high pressure, but you're highly disciplined and you get results.

A lot of the guys that I work with, I'm writing a book all about A1, and it's more of a recruiting tool, and I kind of disprove this fallacy that I've got to do it this way and let the, let the top guys kind of come up with their own methodology because I'm like, if you just follow our 8-step process, it'll work every single time. Like, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. Tom Hopkins used to talk about this all the time, like, learn exactly how I say it, do it exactly like this. And I know some of the best trainers in the world, they're like, you run by scripts and you say it almost identical. And here, I'm going to hand you this, just like if you were auditioning. It's only a few sentences, and let's see if you could do it. And if you can't do it with a smile on your face and make eye contact and just feel comfortable in a conversation, very hard to want to hire that person. I think that comes a lot from hospitality background, just being able to kind of smile and have a conversation, build a relationship.

I don't ever ask my guys to build a relationship with a script. Like, if you're talking about, uh, the Harley-Davidson in the garage, there's no script for that, you know what I mean? So you're allowed to talk about anything and build a relationship. But do it with something you're interested in. Don't be a pretender.

You know, I was in a call center in Tennessee, and I was sitting next to an incredible seasoned call center agent, and this individual was scripted, okay? But because he knew the script so well, when the dog barked in the background, he said, "What kind of dog was that?" And they went off on a conversation about the breed Okay, for quite some time, built a heck of a rapport together with the homeowner. Then he said, let me ask you, do you let the dog in and out through the back sliding glass door, or how do you let the dog— he knew where he was going the whole time, right? He was an absolute pro. But it was the two ears, one mouth, you know, approach. And because he knew the script so well, and he knew he could get off it and get back on it, right? And that made him an absolutely dynamic player. And if you're winging it, you're never going to get the kind of results this individual got.

I love that. I think as well as we do, there's so much room. I get in a podcast like this. This is what I love. It really lets me learn and implement. I started the podcast in 2017 just because I wanted to hear more, not because I had something to say. And I was able to get guys like you on throughout the years and just take notes and say— I literally, since we've been sitting here, we've got one of the most amazing project managers probably in the world. She came from General Electric, massive, could handle 50 projects, keep them on time, on budget, get everything done, keep all the decision makers in the loop. And I'm like, I need somebody just for me under her, just with all the ideas I have, that it could actually get things to the finish line. Like little things, like the smallest little things, like putting the A-frames out in the front yard when we're working, like right in the street. You know, and then building systems to make sure it's happening every time. Because it's one thing to create a system, make sure everybody knows how to do it.

It's another thing to make sure people are adhering to it. That's why we've got tools like Rillo Voice and Ciro and FieldSpark that we can listen to the conversations in the field to create accountability and make sure we get coached properly. I mean, do you believe in those tools?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we use them, we use them in my business, and they are great. Accountability tools, but they're not a substitute, right? I still think riding along with a salesperson is a good idea. I think going out to stopping for a cup of coffee with them after an appointment or a beer and saying, hey, here's what happened on that appointment and how do you feel how it went? And do you remember when you said this and you might have said that? Because that's just good old-fashioned leadership and getting in, building into your, to your team. You can't always do that, you know, through the apps. So I like both. Um, I think the tendency is when new technology comes out, it's like the ride-along's dead, we don't ever have to do it again. Why not both? Why not take everything that's great from a ride-along and also use the technology so that you don't have to ride along every night?

Or technology doesn't fix much if you think about it. You could be recording every conversation, but there's no one-on-ones, there's no constructive feedback, there's nothing happening with that. And all of a sudden it's like we're paying for this software, but there's no results coming from it. I hear people all the time, yeah, we use that, but it didn't really move the needle. How many coaches do you have? How many one-on-ones are you having? What's the main thing you're focused on that month for that individual? And there's really no answers. They're like, dude, we're swamped. And it's like, then why'd you get the tool? What did you plan on? It was going to solve your problems? You think getting on the right CRM without a setup, right, without the price structure, right, without the reporting, right, it's going to solve your problems? And they just think, man, I got on this tool you talked about and nothing happened. I'm like, there's so much more to it than that.

Yeah, there really is. And that's what I was, you know, treading on earlier about, you know, that tech stack and keeping an eye on, on it, making sure you're maximizing what you have already and making sure that you are prepared for any new changes that come and your team learns to adopt change.

What is, uh, what's the vision for Tony Hody Trading and Consulting? What are you guys gonna jump into next? What's your vision for that?

We're going to continue to do what's not necessarily, uh, glorious, um, and help companies get into new facets of lead generation. Many of them, even in the home improvement space, even though it's not on demand, many of them try to solve their marketing problems strictly in the checkbook. They try to, you know, Google ad campaigns, they try to buy leads from lead aggregators, they try to advertise in print media or television, radio, and that's all they're doing. We're going to continue to help contractors stick with the fundamentals stuff that's guaranteed and proven, uh, that going out and knocking on doors, working live home shows and events, getting better in the call center so you don't have so many leaks, you know, helping companies get into retail stores and helping companies do a better job with their showrooms.

I love it. Showrooms, door-to-door. And events. Uh, what's one piece of advice you would give to a home service business owner who feels stuck and wants to grow but doesn't know where to start?

You know, I think it's all about self-improvement. I think that you have to find an area where you're challenged in, in your business, and you have to— the information's out there. Find the books, find the people, you know, they will. It is out there. You can make— build those relationships. You can read those books. You can attend those conferences. And you don't have to spend a bunch of money. You don't have to leave your family and go across the country. There are podcasts. There are webinars. There's just so much great information, way more than there ever has been before. But many of them are in their trucks and they're listening to sports talk radio instead of listening to something that could really benefit them long term. You know, there's a lot that they could be doing to get a little better every day with that kaizen approach. And they're just not doing it.

Is there a book that comes to mind that was a game changer for you along the way?

You know, there's so many, so many. And a lot of times they're like puzzle pieces. You know, a friend of mine used to send me a quote, BJ Worzen, owner of West Shore Homes.

Yeah, I was actually— wrote down BJ's name. He's got an awesome LiDAR tool. He's killing it.

Yeah, so I used to help BJ with lead generation back in the day, and, um, you know, when I would go there, he— one time he sent me a quote that said, the best things in life are on the top shelf. The only way you'll ever reach them is by standing on the books you've read. And there's a lot of truth to that.

It's brilliant. Tony, if somebody wants to know more about you, what's the best way to work with you?

You know, I was listening to one of your podcasts the other day with Carmine Gallo that was fantastic. And he said, you know, if you can find my name, you can find me. And that's certainly true for me. I got a pretty unique name, Tony Hody. T-O-N-Y-H-O-T-Y. The website's tonyhody.com. Email, tony@tonyhody.com. It's pretty simple. YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn. You can pretty much find me anywhere.

You know, after this podcast, and this is a good thing, I just feel like, you know what I love about this business is there's so much more to do. I don't ever feel like we've arrived. I still feel like it's such early stages and I just don't get bored. I'm like, tomorrow we're going to be way different than we were today and we're going to make changes and we're going to adapt and the future The future looks bright and AI's amazing and I'm not afraid of it. And I'm just, I'm just having fun. And the fact is, you know, it's a good podcast because I got note after note after note after note. Um, let's finish up here and just tell us something, final thought, something for the audience or just something on your mind or maybe something we didn't talk about.

Well, I am excited for Lead Gen Expo. That's June 10th and 11th in Cleveland, where we're going to be talking about all things lead generation. And tomorrow's May 1st, new month and new 24-hour showroom, which is a unique innovative concept for my retail business. We're all excited about that. Got a few more planning openings later this year. So a lot going on.

Fantastic, Tony. It's a pleasure. Thank you for jumping on today. Just a wealth of knowledge. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Tommy. I appreciate it very much as well.