Transcript of Charlie Munger Mailed This Author One Share And It Became $735,000

I've been in a lot of sales training programs and they say the number one rule of sales is get your customer to like you. That works, but it's not the number one rule. Here's the number one rule. Show your customer that you like them.

Yeah.

If you have a welcoming statement on the landing page of your website, you get significantly more conversions. Before, again, before they've ever read a word, All right guys, check this out.

I'm sitting down with the one and only Robert Cialdini, who, if you guys don't know who he is, uh, he's the godfather of psychology in my opinion. ASU professor, still hangs out on campus a lot. Uh, Influence, Getting to Yes, just some of the best, uh, influence books, ethical influence.

Yeah.

And I'll tell you guys, listen, I've got an opportunity. He came in and trained us today. One, I've been to a lot of his seminars. If you want to catch him, there's only 75 seats. It's December 5th and 6th. It's called Influence Unleashed, and, uh, it's going to be in Tempe at the Mr. Joe Polish, one of the best networkers of all time. And if you want to save some money, there's $500 off any ticket. It's just A1 Garage, capital letters. I'm not making any money. I'm not an affiliate here. I just support this guy. And his wife Babette that's sitting back there. What do you wanna tell us real quick, Robert? What can they expect from this event?

I don't know if any of your listeners, viewers are sports fans, but I've never tired of seeing after a loss, coaches or players saying, we had this great game plan and everybody understood it. but we didn't execute it. This event is about executing the practice of influence. It's not about just understanding those principles and practices and techniques that move people toward yes. It's about moving to their implementation and focusing on that, that link. And we're going to spend a couple of days drilling down on how you do it, not just what the principles are. But how, how you, uh, make them work for you.

I love it. Listen, guys, I can teach you how to get a 6-pack, doesn't mean you're gonna do it. I always talk about this. December 5th and 6th in Tempe, Arizona. This is a do-not-wanna-miss, limited seats, 75 seats. Use A1 Garage, capital letters, save some money, be at the event. We'll see you there. Yeah, you'll sell out of that.

That's Oh, we want— I mean, we usually do 200 seats.

Oh yeah.

But because we want to do this intensive and interactive implementation strategy—

That's so good.

That we're going to make it a lot more intimate.

Yeah, I know, it's killer. I think a lot of people understand the techniques, they just don't know how to do them.

That's right.

You want to get the ball rolling here?

Sure.

I'm excited. This is always fun. All right guys, welcome back to the Mellow Millionaire Podcast. Today's an amazing day because I got the one and only Robert Cialdini and his wife Babette in the studio. Uh, our guest today is one of the most influential psychologists of our time, Dr. Robert Cialdini, the best-selling author of Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, a book that sold over 5 million copies, been translated into 40 languages, and remains one of the most cited works in psychology and marketing. Today's research continues to shape how leaders, marketers, and everyday people understand the science and the ethics of influence. Robert, we had you on the, uh, you go by Bob sometimes. I don't know what to call you, but Bob, yeah, we've had you on Home Service Expert. I've read your books, I've gone to your seminars, and I just, every time I get pages of notes. But you're right, you know, it's hard to implement everything. It's hard to kind of ruthlessly prioritize what's the best lowest-hanging fruit to implement. And they've got all kinds of strategies, but, um, why don't we just talk a little bit about where you're at today?

You know, I know you taught at ASU. What got you so obsessed in the influence game? And, uh, what are you excited about?

I think that I'm excited about, um, taking this, uh, to a broader audience than we have done before, uh, making sure that the people Who have paid for my research, after all, with your taxes, with your donations to my universities and so— you've paid for that research. You're entitled to know what I found out about persuasion with your money. Right? So I want to get programs available to people to understand the practices and procedures that make people most likely to say yes to us. And that you can— how you can do it in an efficient and ethical way.

Yeah, the beginning of the book is just don't use these practices for unethical, 'cause it could easily go the opposite way. And we've seen that.

Yeah, we've got dynamite. And you can use dynamite to blow up a bridge. You can use dynamite to help build a bridge. We're gonna be on the building side.

I love it. Let's go through, I mean, listen, there's several core principles. Let's just start out with what is ethical influence? Let's start there.

Ethical influence is the ability to move people in your direction by informing them into yes, by educating them into assent so that they know the value proposition that you offer them. that is worthwhile to them, but you just haven't known how to properly phrase it or deliver it. It's about the presentation of your case, not the core merits of your case. I can't change that. I can change the way you deliver the merits of your case that makes people psychologically more attracted to it.

It's so much fun because there's a great book by Daniel Pink called The Sell Is Human, and selling is just normal. Like when you meet your fiancée for the first time or your wife or your husband, or you're getting your kids to make their bed, it's like we've gotta have persuasion. And it's not a bad thing. It's like getting your kids to do chores is not a bad thing, but if we phrase it in the right way, and I've learned so much from you, these little things like— Uh, I don't even want to go into it right now, but you talk about reciprocity, commitment, consistency, social proof, authority, liking, and scarcity. Um, let's just talk a little bit, like, like a rough overview of each of those.

Yeah, let's talk. It turns out that we've added one.

Yeah, I remember.

Yeah, called unity.

Yeah, unity right here, the 7th principle.

Yeah, and it's about It's saying yes to people because you feel a sense of togetherness or partnership with them. Not that you necessarily feel similar to them. You feel that you belong together. Let me give you an example from a study that was done, 'cause you were just talking about what do you say to somebody you meet for the first time who's a potential date or relationship partner or even an existing relationship partner? What do you say when the two of you difference of opinion and you just can't get past that issue. It turns out there's this study that was done in Texas where they take people who were together in a relationship for more than 2 and a half years.

Okay.

And they give them each, they say, we're gonna flip a coin. One of you, we're gonna ask you to persuade the other to come into line with you with You know, on a topic that you haven't been able to get resolution on together.

It could be religion, politics, anything.

It could be anything. All right? And then the researchers leave the room and they are listening in and they're watching through one-way mirrors. And they look at what people say to get their partner to say yes to them. And they found 3 kinds of people. One used coercion and said, if you don't do this for me, you'll be sorry. Not only didn't that work, it moved people in the opposite direction. You can relate to that, right? Any boss who does that to you—

Because I said so.

Yeah, because, right. The others were called the rational logical group. They said to their partner, if you'll just look at this situation, you'll see That I have the most rational, logical position on this. That didn't produce polarization. It just produced laughter.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, sure. No change at all. And then there was a small group of people, only 15%, the only ones who got change.

Empathy?

It was.

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The only ones who got change Empathy? It was. It was to say, to use the term we and say, you know, we've been together for 2 years. I really appreciate— I'd really appreciate if you do this for us. You see what— it's not me versus you. It's us. It's we-ness. And it's the The only ones who changed. Simply using the term we, you change the mindset from conflict to collaboration. The only ones who got significant change just used the word we.

I'm just trying to think about Bree and when I want to take her out to eat and she doesn't agree. is we both like chicken.

I'm going to learn this.

There's probably a lot of techniques I could learn, and I'm not trying to manipulate. I'm just trying to like figure— the problem is now I'm just like, pick 3 and I'll choose 1.

But see, here's the brilliance of it. Isn't it true that you and Bree are a we?

Oh, absolutely. We're a unit.

And what the researchers in this study did was take people away from that. They said, focus on this difference. Between you. And the 15% wouldn't have it. They said, nope, what we really are is a unit. I'm going to use the word we. I'm going to focus on the connection, on the togetherness of us. I'm going to bring that to top of consciousness, not the difference on this one topic. I'm going to say, We. That's all. You just bring to top of consciousness we-ness instead of difference.

Oh, I love it.

Made the difference.

I need to learn how to really implement these. I understand. So reciprocity, we do a very good job. Reciprocity is pretty simple. You know, do unto your— you know, you give somebody, you treat them With respect and like you come in to offer something if you want something in response. Commitment. Let's go over like an example of commitment.

People say yes to those requests that are consistent with what they have already said or done or valued.

Yes.

So here's an example from a restaurant. All right. Restaurants have a problem with no-shows, people who book a table and then they don't appear. All right. So there's this guy in Chicago, Gordon Sinclair, Gordon's Restaurant. And he read my book and he made one change to what his receptionist says when she takes a booking. Right? She used to say, please call if you have to change or cancel your reservation.

Right?

He asked her to add 2 words and to say, will you please call if you have to change or cancel your reservation? And then pause. Let them fill it with a commitment to do it. And no-shows, unannounced no-shows dropped at Gordon's restaurant by 62% that day.

Jeez.

And never went back up for 2 words because they engaged the power, the psychological power of wanting to be consistent with a public commitment that you have made.

I love that. You know, are you familiar with the guy Chris Voss?

Oh yeah. Yeah, I think he's great.

I was with him last week and I know him really well. I actually met him through Joe.

Yeah.

And one of the things he said is instead of asking people, hey, do you got a minute to chat, Robert? Or Bob. Yeah. He says, have you given up? Have you given up on looking for a garage? Have you given up on— he always wants to get no out of people.

Yeah.

To get rid of the no.

Get rid of the no.

Because people are really excited to say no.

Then they're committed to saying, I haven't given up. So what's the next step? Yeah. What's logically congruent with I haven't given up? Well, Brilliant. I've got a friend who's a Boy Scout leader.

Yeah.

He's got 2 kids in the Boy Scouts and he sells popcorn outside of supermarkets.

Okay.

And he sets up a desk and people come out and they sell them popcorn, right, as they leave. And he said to me, we're having a terrible time. We're only getting about 15% of the people who come out who wanna buy our popcorn. Well, I can understand why. If you wanted popcorn, you would've bought it in the shop and you already spent your budget. You're not— So I said, well, what do you say to them when they approach? We say, excuse me, would you like to buy some popcorn? It would help the Boy Scouts, right?

Yeah.

We only get 15%. So try this. Excuse me. Do you support the Boy Scouts? Everybody says yes. And then you say, would you like to buy some popcorn?

Order of operations.

And it goes from 15% to 52%.

Oh my goodness.

And here's the best part of it. People, some people say, you know, I don't really want your popcorn, but I support the Boy Scouts. So here's $5.

I've done that. I've done that all the time where I'm like, I don't really, I don't want popcorn. But here's something.

Because you committed yourself, in this case of these people, they committed themselves to favoring and being supporting the Boy Scouts. Now, what's consistent with that?

I love that. All right, social proof. Let's run over that one.

That's the one that says people say yes to you if you can show them that a lot of other people like them have been doing what you're recommending them to do.

So like right now I could pull up a map on my iPad and show you everybody in your neighborhood that's bought a new garage.

That's right.

That's a good example.

That's exactly right. Or just to say, look, a lot of your neighbors that we have good things to say about us, uh, you know, because we've been able to— oh, okay. Now I know that people like me who are comparable to me are having a good experience with you, right? So McDonald's does this study. You know, McDonald's sells hamburgers, drinks, and fries.

Yep.

But they also offer dessert. So we all have upscale, we all have upsells that we would like people to, add-on. So they're not getting a lot of people buying dessert, right? So my colleague, Stephen J. Marston in the UK does this study where he has the receptionist say, would you like a dessert?

Right.

For half of them. For the other half, he says, would you like a dessert? And then he tells them that the McFlurry is our most popular dessert here among the people who come here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they get 55% more people buying dessert.

I think Everybody I know, there's this new product we're getting ready to work with. And it says, so you got the options and it's most popular, top choice, top choice. And even if you could go further and put 977 customers have bought this choice versus, that's a simple thing of consistency. Or is that?

That's social proof.

Social proof.

Social proof. I mean, 900, and by the way, you know how, on your website, you can have 960— we have 967 4-star and 5-star reviews.

Yep.

Here's what you should say. We have 967 4- and 5-star reviewers, not reviews. What are you— what's in your mind when you say, oh, those are check marks on a Reviewers? Those are people just like me who have said this. That's what you want at the top of consciousness, that image.

I love that. Now, authority is pretty simple, but let's just talk about authority.

When people are uncertain, they don't look inside of themselves to decide what to do. And a lot of times people aren't sure they want to move in your direction.

Right?

But if you give them evidence that people who are legitimate authorities have praised your product or your approach, your business, whatever it is, all right, like Chris Voss or Joe Polish, right? If you put that at the top of your presentation, before they have seen one word of it, they're more likely to say yes because everything they see now is infused with the credibility of the experts who reduce their uncertainty. Oh yeah, if the experts say this is the way to go, then I believe it. Then I'm likely to go in that direction.

So selfishly, I'll ask you for garagers, you might put like the Property Brothers or Mike Rowe or somebody like somebody that's kind of like blue collar savant.

That's, I would say exactly right.

Okay.

The experts in that field, in that domain.

Okay, this is all, I just, I can't, I could do this all day. Liking is just, let's cover that.

Okay, so—

And I know this, it's just, you're better. You've made this up.

So people say yes to those they like, And here's the key, to those who like them. That's what gets— I've been in a lot of sales training programs and they say the number one rule of sales is get your customer to like you. That works, but it's not the number one rule. Here's the number one rule. Show your customer that you like them.

Yeah.

And now—

I learned that from you.

The defenses come down.

So what I say is there's 3 things that need to happen. And I coached 3 hours today on this during orientation. I said, number one, customer needs to like and trust you, right? I mean, they need to know that you're the expert. Number 2, they gotta love the company and believe that we're gonna back up everything. And number 3, they gotta feel loved.

They gotta feel approved.

And the way that we do that is we laugh at their jokes. We take notes when they talk. Simple little things like smiling. When they ask a question, you don't respond right away, you internalize it. You know, it's like Dale Carnegie probably said the same thing. It's like, let them talk, take a minute, tell them that was a really great question. And actually maybe even ask them another question on a question to like dig in deeper.

That's exactly right. And now there's some new research to show how do you get liking online? Those people don't know you. They're not familiar with you. They're—

I guess the same thing with TV or radio.

Yeah. So it turns out there's a study that was done that shows that if you have a welcoming statement on the landing page of your website, you get significantly more conversions. Before, again, before they've ever read a word of your offer, Or business, you've put them in a state of approval, that you approve of them. You've welcomed them. And you get significantly more conversion. Isn't it true? Again, it's ethical. Don't you welcome the people who come to your site? Don't you want to welcome them? Of course. You just didn't say it. It didn't go to top of consciousness.

And so give me the exact 'Cause you've done—

I do it on my website.

Yeah, I've looked at this.

Hello, I'm so glad, welcome. I'm so glad you decided to join us. I look forward to working with you. That's all. Welcome, the first thing you say.

And scarcity.

People want more of those things they can have less of, right? Okay, so If you can show people how what you have is unique or uncommon or rare, that they can't get it from your rivals, they want it more from you. And sometimes it's not any one thing. And here's what A1 does. You have a combination of strengths that nobody can match. And what you can do is put together that suite of strengths that nobody else can provide.

Yeah.

And it's, again, it's ethical because it's true. You haven't exaggerated, you haven't manufactured, you haven't counterfeited anything. But you've, you've pressed a lever that is psychologically meaningful for people.

Yeah, I love this stuff, man. I can't tell you. Um, okay, so let's jump into 2 questions. We're just, you know, you, Colin, tell me when we're running low because I got— I'm, I'm right here on 2-page. Um, so let's go back in time. You're in your 20s. you get to go back and talk to yourself. What's a few pieces of game-changing advice that you'd give young Robert Cialdini?

Okay. One is a quote from Benjamin Franklin who said, if you wish to persuade, speak not to argument, speak to self-interest of the recipient. You have to think, you have to— now here's where empathy comes in. You have to put yourself in that person's situation, the challenges that person is in at the moment, the circumstances surrounding this thing. And you tell them what they will benefit from the exchange with you, from being not Why it's good for you, but why it exactly will benefit them. And the things like scarcity and uniqueness that you can only provide and so on, and dealing with somebody they like and who likes them. Those are exactly the kinds of things you can say that aren't just, oh, you're going to save money here. No, you're going to get a partner who likes you. You're going to get a set of strengths that you can't get anywhere else. Those are the kinds of things. So that's one thing. That's the first thing I would say to myself from 20— and here's the other one. People don't sink the boats they're riding in. And your job as a communicator is to put the recipient of your communication in your boat with you.

We-ness. All right. I mean, togetherness. All right, so anything you can do. All right, so for example, the marketing practice that has been most successful over the last couple of decades is co-creation, where you ask your customers to help you create the next iteration, the next generation of your products or service, or to tell you the things that they would like you to most enhance and those things that they might like you to drop, whatever. You get them to advise you.

And then they're in the boat with you.

And they're in the boat with you.

I love that.

And they don't— now, when you ask them, here's the thing that the Cialdini Institute is doing now. We're looking for the smallest things you can change that produce these effects for each of the principles of influence, right? Like 2 words or a welcoming statement, the smallest things that don't cost you anything, right? When you ask them to help you and provide their input into the next generation, right? So to get them in the boat with you, don't ask for their opinion. When you ask for their opinion, you get a critic. You get somebody who steps away from you, who backs away, and literally they're not in the boat. They're looking at you, right? If you change one word and you ask for their advice, That's nice. You get a partner, you get a collaborator.

Yeah, collaboration.

And the research, it's pretty clear. It shows not only do they have more positive attitudes towards your brand, if you've asked for their advice, they give you better input and recommendations on what you should say because they're in the boat with you.

I need to change what I phrase because a lot of times I'm like, don't give me the good, just give me the bad and ugly. Because I don't need to be told everything we do well. I just want to go right to— I don't like meetings that I'm like, the first 25 minutes are what went well. Let's just, hey guys, great job. Records, awesome. We did well. Let's talk about the things we need to— because I think there's a lot of meetings that just go to waste. There's nobody taking minutes. There's no agenda. It's more of a brainstorming session.

Yeah.

But yeah, getting the advice and collaboration. I got a question about, you know, it's a money question, but I wanna divert this question 'cause I already know. You'd done something with Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett, and Berkshire. And I love that story. And I think you own a little bit of Berkshire Hathaway. Can you tell that story?

25 years ago, I went to my mailbox and there's an envelope legal size envelope. And I opened it up and it's a single share. It's on paper back in 25 years ago. That's, they were, you know, they weren't just digitally sent to you. There's a single share of Berkshire Hathaway A stock and it's worth $75,000. And there's a note attached. from Charlie Munger, who was renowned as the brains of Berkshire Hathaway. And that's a high bar because Warren Buffett is the other guy at the top.

Yeah.

Okay. And the note from Charlie says, the first chapter in your book Influence is about the rule for reciprocation. that we are obligated to give back to others who have given value to us. We have made so much money from your book that you're entitled to this $75,000. Okay? And I was in a chair with wheels on it. I read that and I was shocked. It knocked me back in my chair and I rolled into the wall behind me. But I kept that share, the paper share. I still have it in my filing cabinet. It's now worth $735,000 for one share because Buffett and Munger are such amazing influence. They're amazing influencers, but they're amazing financial investors.

Yeah.

And I just held it because, hey, that's from Charlie Munger.

That is so cool. The late Charlie Munger.

The late Charlie. He died one month before his 100th birthday. Babette and I were planning to go to his birthday party and we had our tickets and we had our hotel recommended and then he passed. And so it was a tragedy.

I love reading their books. I mean, they're like, invest in things you understand and you don't need to buy a lot of things. You get behind it. You think about Coca-Cola and some of the things they got behind early. You know, GEICO is their first business. It is. I just think this is a cool story about how waiters and waitresses can earn 23% by using the law of reciprocation. It's a cool story.

Yeah. And again, research, it's not just my hunch or speculation. If a waiter comes to the table with the bill on a tray, that's the control group, all right? How much do they tip? If the waiter puts a single candy, a mint on the table, Tips go up.

13%.

If the waiter puts 2 mints on the table, on the tray for each diner, and they say, 2? Really? 2 for us? 2? They go up 17%.

I love this walkout.

Now here's the— yes, you remember this. If the waiter puts 1 on the tray, And walks away and then turns around and comes back and uses approval and says, you know what, for you nice people, because you've been such good guests, gives them liking, right? And puts the second mint down in front of them. The tip goes up 23%.

Right.

So he's got reciprocity and liking in that combined and you get these gangbuster results.

I mean, you might— I, I actually want to ask you this to poke some holes in it. So we've got some things that are high value, low cost, like a surge protector and a magnetic Deco hardware kit. And so me and Luke have been talking about this and saying, look, Bob, you've been a great client of ours, second time we've come out here. I want you to pick whichever one you think would be the highest value because you've been such a great client, and then walk out to the truck and grab it. And, you know, we've been thinking about this, but we'd like to give you both. I want— would that—

That would.

I just, I want to make sure I get this right.

Wow, that's great. But I'm going to say, if you don't have the resources to have those kinds of gifts available, give them a list of tips they can use, not for their garage door, for their house. So you're not— this isn't something that you're selling them as a sales device. It's just because you want them to have better outcomes in their home, right?

Okay.

Or a card that you can put on, they can put on their door. Little tips for saving energy, little tips for fire safety, little tips, right? Give them that. As a starter anyway, before they ever decide to go with you. Go first. Give them something first.

That's the whole idea about why we offer. So one of the things I really worked on is, hey, Bob, and this isn't perfected yet, but we're stopping off, stopping off at 7-Eleven. Can I grab you a cup of coffee, soda, anything you'd like? Most people say, hey, I really appreciate it, but no. And then I'm like, listen, you come to my house, Bree's gonna feed you. Let me get you something. I really want to buy you something. And it's nothing crazy. I mean, we brought apple cider and donuts to a client in Michigan.

Yeah, yeah.

Exactly. But you just, I don't wanna show up with something like a Red Bull and you hate Red Bull. So it's like, I wanna call you to see.

Yeah, you know what has worked for us? A $25 Starbucks card. Or a $15 Starbucks card.

I love it. Everybody uses that. So let's talk about the power of being liked by you. You cited a study where only 55% of negotiators reached an agreement without any rapport, but 90% when they connected over shared interests beforehand. So how does that work? So like, that would be me walking into a garage and there's a fishing pole or a Or a set of golf clubs.

A fishing pole or a set of golf clubs or a football, whatever. But now we have an ally in the internet and people tell us about them and their interests and their hobbies, their backgrounds, Facebook and so on. They want us to know. It's not like, and again, you don't invent any of it. Where you hit the commonality, you like to fish too.

Yeah, that's essential, yeah.

Then you've got honest connection that you can, enjoy an exchange at, and those people love you for it.

Social proof is everywhere. Reviews, likes, followers, you know, it's everywhere now. Do you think the modern obsession with metrics strengthens or distorts the original psychology behind customer decisions?

Provided it's ethical, provided it's honest, it strengthens them. But here's the study. Again, we're always talking about a study. So if you wrote, if you have, let's say, 90% of dentists approve of our toothpaste, right? Okay.

Yeah.

If instead you said 89%, you get more conversions because you've shown them you're honest, And it's up there at 80, it's still up there like this. What you have to be sure of is that you don't, 'cause you know the worst was 9 out of 10. That just sounds like you pulled that off the top of your head.

Or what would even be better is 89.2%.

Exactly. I mean, they know, remember in school, your math teacher said, don't just give me the answer, show your work. If you've got 82, 89.2, you did your work to find the real statistics. They're gonna honest, you're gonna, they're gonna see your honesty.

Yeah, no, I love the idea. They just came out with a study that the garage door improves your home's value by 268%. And there was a massive double-blind study. Like they did it the right way is to share the research and just show them, show your work too.

Yeah, not just almost 290%, no, 268%. What was it?

268%.

Yeah.

And what we're gonna do, check this out, I think this is the coolest thing. Right at the end, whatever door you go, it's gonna show your house on Zillow before and after.

Wow.

Which is, I think, a pretty good idea, 'cause it's an investment into your home. Wall Street Journal just came out and said, Before you think about remodeling your bathrooms, it might not be worth it, but your garage door is.

You know what, Tommy? You're interviewing me, but I learn from you in these interviews too.

No, I—

Oh, absolutely. I learn stuff.

So you've worked with, I mean, literally influenced the workings of it, getting to, yes, all the books have been used by everyone from the Fortune 500 companies to political campaigns. What's one example where you've seen the principles brilliantly used and one where they were not being used the right way?

Okay, so I'll give you an example of, of the right way to do it, and in the same situation, not the wrong way to do it.

Okay.

Okay. In CEO reports to their customers, to their—

Team members.

Team members and shareholders, right? They tell you all the things that went right that year. They build themselves up. They tell you all the things. And then at the end, if at all, they tell you what went wrong, right? Why should you believe them? What's their credibility? Well, how have they established their credibility if they just like everybody else are pulling the positivity blanket over your face, right? Here's what Warren Buffett does on every letter to his shareholders. He first mentions something that went wrong that year, and he establishes his credibility as being an honest broker of information to them. And then he says, but, or however, or nonetheless, and then he goes into the strengths. I've been getting these, and I'm telling you, it works on me every time. Because now I'm I'm processing the strengths differently than before because I know they're coming from an honest person who's willing to talk not just about the strengths, but the weaknesses. And then give me evidence that wipes out the weaknesses. Here are the strengths, right? That just—

Well, plus there's the idea that your $75,000 share is now almost $800,000 over 10x.

That's right. But I'm telling you, That man is brilliant.

He is brilliant.

So I wouldn't mind having people say, you know, we're not the least expensive here in town or in our industry. But, right? Do you know what L'Oréal Cosmetics had a marketing campaign that said, we're expensive, but you're worth it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Increased market share by 300%.

Oh, wow.

Bring down the barrier of doubt. Should I believe this person? You tell them something that is true, but may not be all that great, that you're not the least expensive, but, but here's what wipes out that, because you're worth it. Oh, and I should tell you that the first version of that ad was, We're expensive, but we're worth it. And it didn't work.

You are, make it possess them.

Make it about them. Make it about self-interest.

Just thinking through that. You know, a lot of times people will say, wow, that's more than I thought it was gonna be. And a lot of times I tell the guys, say, yeah, it's an investment.

Because?

Yeah, because you're worth it.

Because you're worth it.

Because you look, you know, I never really bought anything That I like. I like nice things. Do you like nice things?

I do.

Yeah. So I've never really gotten a deal on anything that I really appreciated. But no, the right words matter, and then the way in which we deliver the message matters. And I think there's a lot of misconception, and you could follow the script, but unless you could actually internalize it, it's kind of like a mechanic that knows how to fix things because he sees it's broken, but the guy that knows how it all works It's so much more advanced.

Boy, I love that because it's the difference between being a short-order cook and a chef.

Yeah.

A short-order cook just follows the recipe over and over and over. And the chef thinks about the combination and what's the freshest and what's the season and so on, and puts together something based on the flavors and the circumstances. the person who wins the day.

So you argue that what happens before a message is delivered oftentimes determines its success. Can you explain what that means?

It has to do with another book I've written called Pre-Suasion.

Yeah.

Right? Which says that it's not only what you put in your message, and that's what the book Influence is all about. What are the psychological principles that you embed in the message to cause people to wanna move in your direction? Pre-suasion says, what do you put in the moment before you send your message to make it more likely that people will resonate to that message? And the answer is you have to put something in their minds that is aligned with the strength of the message that they have yet to receive. I'll give you an example from Norwegian Cruise Lines.

Mm-hmm.

One holiday season, they sent out a message to all of their previous customers that if you book a cruise during this holiday season, you will get a big, Discount, right? That was in an email, right? And when you open the email, you see a clock ticking down with fewer and fewer moments until the budget, the bargain goes away. So it's a limited time.

Yeah, limited time offer.

So it's scarcity, essentially. It's scarcity. If you don't do this, it'll be lost to you. Okay, half of the people got the email and in the subject line was—

Limited time.

Budget limit, no, it was budget or bargain fares. The other half got that same thing with 2 ticking down clock emojis. So they were primed for the concept of scarcity before they got to it. And 16% more of them booked the flight, booked the cruise, because you put in their consciousness a readiness to experience the strength of your message before they even got to it.

I love that idea. You know, it's— so one of the things I'm working on is, uh, getting the CEO of the garage door manufacturers to literally give us on a package, like, really include extra trim and do the extra strut in the op bracket. Like, they'll do that because we're a big client. And I want them to make the video and say, for this quarter and this quarter only, this is why we did this, because A1's one of the largest purchasers of garage doors in North America delivered from them. I just say, this is real. And I want to be completely real about it. Like, we're not making this up. This isn't limited. This is just last this quarter.

Yeah.

I don't know. I got to work on these things because I don't think they're perfect yet. But these are— I get all these ideas and I just need to craft them perfectly. I want to do a real-life demonstration of your methods of influence in real time. And so— and listen, I don't mean to put you on the spot. If this doesn't go well, we could try something else, but try to convince me not to read your book, do it in a way that actually makes me want to read it.

Okay. You know, that book is written for an audience of intelligent laypeople, people who are not trained in psychology, but who are interested in psychology. So if you're not interested in the psychology, I don't want you reading it. I don't want you wasting your time on persuasion if that's not important to you?

That's really good. I love it. Okay, this is the last one. Pretend that I don't believe in persuasion techniques that really work. I know it sounds ridiculous. And that I think people are too smart for your methods. How would you try to change their mind?

I show them the results. I show them the data.

The data. Everything's about the data.

Everything's about the data. You say it this way and you get this many people who say yes to you. You say it this way and you get this many. And I show them the bars. I show them the difference. Whoop, you say it this way. Whoop, you say it this other way that's consistent with the principles of persuasion. Whoop.

Man, so many opportunities.

Show them the data.

This is a personal question. So, you know, the first 4 letters of culture are cult. And it's called— it's a bad word, I guess, but call it a team. And you're getting people aligned. You could call it a brotherhood or a sisterhood. You know, we have going on 900 people here, and I believe I want the best things. I want to take care of our clients. More importantly, I want to take care of the people, but I need them to believe, and I need them to know they're doing the right thing for the client. But some of them think that's a lot of money, yet they live in an apartment and own a pair of— If you really feel like you're doing the ethical thing and you're doing the right thing by clients, How would you build more of a following? Especially I'm the founder and there's a lot of people that listen that are the founders of their business and they want to have people. And I know it goes both ways. I mean, listen, that means I'm taking the time to listen to them. I care about them. I care about their future, their dreams.

But what would be the best way to create that community?

Put them in the boat with you. Put them in the boat with you and show them The unity, the togetherness, the partnership, the value, and the self-interest of being in that strong, speedy, powerful boat with you. Then you get both Ben Franklin's self— give them self-interest, and you get the quote, put them in the boat with you. People don't sink the boats they're riding in.

I, uh, oh, I can't wait. I got a few people that I'm gonna give this to. We're just gonna go brainstorm at my house for a day. Um, I'm just gonna go through rapid fire, then we'll close it out. What do you think is the biggest misconception people have about human behavior?

Um, that it's cognitively based rather than emotional.

What's one book other than your own that you'd recommend to every high achiever?

Dan Pink's To Sell Is Human.

Okay. What's harder, changing minds or changing habits?

Changing habits is harder because again, you can change, you can get people to agree to do something, but that's not the same as getting them to implement that intention or that belief. That's the thing. Get them to engage in a habit that captures the belief.

And that's what you're focused on is implementation. What are some of the steps people take to really, instead of understanding and learning, how do they apply it?

This is what we have learned. Give them small steps, because if you give them these big changes that they have to make, It's just sometimes too much. They've busy days, busy schedule. They're not going to change the way that they have been doing things, especially if they've been somewhat successful. But you give them one word or you give them a welcoming statement to put on, then you get the steps. You get them to take those steps. And now that's a commitment in your direction.

I love it. What's one thing that never stops surprising you about people from a psychological perspective?

They think that they're less persuadable than they actually are. They think that this wouldn't work on me. Oh yeah, these principles may work on other people, but they wouldn't work on me. And it's just not true. It works. These principles work. And the evidence is they work in a general, universal way.

What? You know what? Why? So there's a book called Driven by Brackmann, is the guy's name. And 5% of the world is hunters, I guess 95% or more are farmers. And there's a lot more monkeys going on in here, and we're more subject to be— but enough is never enough. This is a personal question. It's like you reach the pinnacle of success. Could be faith, could be family, could be physical, could be even financially. But the goalpost always moves.

Yeah.

And I'm just curious, from your point of view, I'm sure you've seen these people. I mean, you still go to ASU, you still do massive research. I just, I never felt this feeling like I've arrived. And I think there's a lot of people out there that feel the same way. And we're more prone to be called dyslexic or ADHD and everything else. But yet Einstein was dyslexic and probably considered ADHD. And if you look at Elon Musk and some of the best brains out there, what do you say to somebody that, by the way, I need farmers around me. I can't get anything done without great people. But when you've met these people, and so what do you tell them? What are—

I value them. I value their differentiation from the other 95%. But I'll tell you something that I think they need to understand that makes it okay to be that driven person. I'm gonna go back to Charlie Munger. And he was a capitalist to the bone, right? But he was what I'll call an inclusive capitalist. He said to me once, the purpose of accumulating wealth is to be in a position to help people who are in peril.

Yeah. Well, that's what I think the Bible says that too.

Yeah. And so now you've got the resources to do that, to help in a broader way. And you don't have to blame yourself for collecting that wealth, accumulating that wealth, because it puts you in a position to be a helper.

I love that. You know, one of the things we've always said is you can't take it with you, right?

Right.

Uh, 2 more questions. Do you have any habits that have changed your life?

Yeah.

Research.

Here's the one that, that has worked for me all the, the most, I would say, in terms of pushing me ahead. And that is when I have Some task that is arduous or negative or bother, you know, it's just not a fun thing to do. There's a lot. I get rid of it by getting done with it. I don't procrastinate by diverting myself or displacing myself from that task. I mean, I don't do that. I get through it. And that makes it go away rather than putting my mind on something else.

Yeah.

Right?

I had a client and the first time in years I had to call. Bad experience. We fixed her door 4 times. She goes, we should have just offered me a new one. And this was Sunday and she only wanted to talk to me. So I went in a quiet spot and I said, hey Pat, how are you? It's Tommy. She goes, not doing so good. And I said, listen, let me just make sure I understand what went on here. And by the way, I was the guy in the truck for the first 10 years, and this whole situation is embarrassing, and we're better than this. And I'm so sorry we wasted your time. And so she went on and went on and went on. And I said, well, first and foremost, the 4 technicians that were out there are having a one-on-one with me this week. And I'm going to figure out a way to make this right. So I said, Pat, what do you think we should do from here? And what's fair based on the time that you've spent and wasted? And she's like, I've already talked to my friends, my neighbors. I'm retired.

She goes into her story. And I said, and I'm here to make it right. And she said, here's what I think we should do. And I said, then why don't we just do that then? And then she said, now all this is going to be in writing. And I said, it's going to be in writing. I said, I'm going to check on you tomorrow morning on Monday. And she said, and it's good, I'm not paying till I get paid and I get the warranty on the services. And I said, it's all gonna be in writing. We're gonna get it painted. She goes, now we got the windows? And I said, yes, everything. It's gonna be everything. So sometimes they're just like, we screwed up. Your time's worth something. Let's make it right. And that happens.

Well, what I love about what you said was, what can we— I mean, you brought her in. What can we do? do together to make this right? You tell us. So now she's in the boat with you.

Yeah, I didn't even think about that.

You use the word we.

I like that. I mean, these little subtleties.

Not, what can A1 do for you? What can the two of us do to make this right?

Yeah, no, it's genius. All right, last thing. And then we just closing questions, final thoughts, and then we'll get out of here and go to dinner. Um, when's the last time someone changed your mind about something and persuaded you? And, you know, it probably happens on a daily basis, so maybe something, a bigger thing. It could have been, you know, I, I don't know, it could be geopolitical, it could be anything, but not, not, not like got you to go to a different restaurant. I mean—

No, it was, um, Bobette and I saw a movie together, and then we talked about— and I didn't like it. And then we talked about it, and she started bringing up things I didn't even see. And I went from negative to wanting to see it again.

What movie?

It was called Anatomy of a Fall.

Oh my gosh, that is really cool. Man, your brain is just, it's like still wired perfectly. It's just, you're just on it. I can't believe you did the role-play thing. It's amazing. Yeah, well, listen, you've got so much going on. You know, what are you excited about here in the next few months going into the next year?

We've got a program coming up in December that I'm really excited about where we're gonna bring in a very small number of people, only 75 people, and really focus on Moving them from a level of understanding of the principles of influence to a level of knowing how to apply them optimally.

I, I for— I'm, I'm sending, I'm sending a couple guys. So we're, we're setting that up. Um, well, listen, I'll give you the final thoughts, close us out. I can't be at this event. It's December 5th and 6th. But I'm going to have a couple of people there on my team. So yeah, give us some final thoughts. I'll let you close us out.

Here's what I'm going to— my final thoughts. Select the right people for that event. The people who can articulate what they learned, not just to you, but to their peers.

All right. I'm on it. Well, listen, Bob, as always, It's a pleasure to have you. Always inspired, excited, kind of just giggle to myself, like, because these things are— they're simple, but they're— they at heart, you just got to do a little bit of the work. And I like the bite sizes. Yeah, I like that idea because you read the book and you're like, there's a million things to do, but just get a couple right and then watch it work, and then you're a believer for life. So thanks again for being here, and thank you, Bobette.

I enjoyed it.

Yeah, it's always fun.