Transcript of The Sorsby Saga (feat. Albert Breer) New

The hell is going on? I thought after Memorial Day and up until August nothing was supposed to happen in football. Au contraire! We have our pal from Sports Illustrated, Bert Breer, coming up in just a second to fill us in on everything, including Jackson Dart, Brendan Sorsby, the state of the Steelers, all the rest of it. Plus there's basketball, there's hockey. Let's get into it. Let's start the show. Yes, hi and hello, my fellow football Americans. Welcome to Football America, presented as ever by DraftKings. DraftKings, the crown is yours. And like I said, Bert Breer in just a second. I want to talk about the Knickerbockers. They're in the finals. Who they're going to play, TBD. Stanley Cup Final, poor people in Buffalo. Oh, those poor souls up there. In the meantime, It's episode 66. Let's do it. The episode, as we do with every episode, we honor the player in football, nay, sports history, who wore it best. 66, Gino Fuentes, welcome back after a week away. How are you? And tell us, who is that person?

Well, we got some Steelers here. We got Alan Faneca is number 66. We got Ray Nitschke. How do you say Nitschke? How do you say that? There's like 5 consonants in a row.

Nitschke.

Nitschke. Ray Nitschke, 5-time NFL champion. Ethan had one that sort of—

yeah, from baseball.

56, bald-headed guy, also was in, uh, uh, you know, with the, the, the movie with, um, Burt Reynolds, Mean Machine. They remade it with Adam Sandler.

Longest Yard is the name of the movie.

Longest Yard. Sheesh.

There's a baseball one too, right?

I don't remember the name of the movie, but I know, I know the name of the guy who plays middle linebacker who Burt Reynolds throws the football into and his balls 2 plays in a row. And his name is Ray Nitschke.

Dave, we've got some really good ones from baseball too. We've got Don Zimmer, famously thrown to the ground by Pedro Martinez. And of course, how can we not remember Yasiel Puig? That's the only one answer, right? He's the guy who wore 66.

He used to live a couple of blocks away from me, but that's not the correct answer.

I think that's it, right?

That's the only one I can think of. That's the only one I can think of.

Let me name for you the individual who has meant more to his franchise than any other human being has ever meant to any other franchise. It's Mario Lemieux, obviously. Number 66, the greatest hockey player in the history of people. Good news there too for the Pittsburgh Penguins. Geno Malkin inks a year-long deal, so he's back. Remarkable stuff. We're so cynical as sports fans these days, but I think we can all take a minute to say man, especially in free agency or any other time really, that there's not one guy who's going to make it 21 years with one franchise, but 3— Geno Malkin and Sidney Crosby and Kris Letang— teammates, sat wearing the same uniform for more than 2 decades. Remarkable stuff. But like I've said before, you need to look no further than the headlines to realize that most people are too cynical, um, to acknowledge greatness. We're watching Shohei Ohtani, and I say greatest in the history of people Shohei Ohtani is in fact that in Major League Baseball. Do we agree on that? Is that hyperbolic or is that settled at this point? On Wednesday night, 6 scoreless— not scoreless innings, but 6 innings.

He gets the win as the pitcher, 7 strikeouts, plus he hit a home run. Why isn't this what we're talking about about 80% of the time we're talking about sports right now? This is the lore of baseball is pretty heavy from Babe Ruth to Willie Mays and Barry Bonds and all that. None holds a candle to this cat.

This might be his most impressive year for me just because I turn around and he's got the lowest ERA in baseball after having a 50.

It's under 1. It's, it's, it's under 1. His ERA is under 1 this season. It's unbelievable. I didn't even realize it, Dave. I'll be honest. Haven't tuned into baseball quite yet. Still waiting for the hockey playoffs to be over. But once I do turn into baseball, wow, you're telling me Shohei Ohtani has an ERA under 1? What the hell are we talking about here?

It's kind of like, you know, basketball doesn't start until after the All-Star break, because that's when— that's when football's over. Yeah, then all right, here we go. Oh, Super Bowl's over? What, basketball's been going on? That's crazy.

Yeah, I guess in another week or two, if he can continue this level both on the hump and in the— at the dish, then maybe basketball and hockey fans will start paying a little bit more attention. Um, I want to talk about the Knickerbockers and the meaning of that in New York and, uh, to the sports world at large. And Jackson Dart is making noise up there as well. But first, I want to dig in on all the NFL news, and there is a surprising amount of it, with one of the best in the business, our old pal from NFL Network. Here comes Bird Breer.

I'm the most disorganized person on the planet.

Everything takes a lot of guts to say that. Takes a lot of guts to say that, and that's why we're bringing him back. He is the bear of the crown jewel of Sports Illustrated's NFL Kingdom, the ruler of Monday Morning QB, the best pal of Connor Orr, his producer is one Kent Bryan from Wilmerding, PA. That's right. And he is an Ohio State guy trying to figure out where his Buckeyes go in Curt Signetti's Big Ten empire. It's our old pal from the NFL Network, Bert, nay, Albert Breer. What's happening, fella? How you been?

Well, enjoy that while you can, uh, because I don't know how much longer it's gonna be Curt Signetti's Big Ten, but right now it certainly is.

Hey, Bert, first things first. You and I started at the NFL. I'm pretty sure it was the same year we did, and you were doing a remote and I was at home base, and I referred to you. They said, let's get it out to New England, to Foxborough, where Albert Breer is standing by. And I said, hey, Bert, what's happening? And when the segment ended, everybody went crazy, like, how dare you insult Albert like that? And I said, I'm trying to do him a solid. I think Bert Breer sounds like a mid-century gumshoe or something. It's Bert Breer over here. Are you okay with it years later? Were you offended at the time I first called you?

No, that's what my childhood friends call me. Sure, that— I thought you knew that. Like, I thought you had some inside sources on that. Like, that's what my childhood friends call me. So I— my thing is I just never correct anybody. So some people call me Bert, other people call me Albert. I'm fine either way. I just— I don't know, I never— you know, I hear people get offended when you refer to them the wrong way. Like, I love Matthew Stafford, but I heard Kelly Stafford got offended by people calling Matthew Stafford Matt. Like, I just never have. Like, I don't— I really, like, don't correct people. So maybe I should, I don't know, and clear up any confusion on that.

I just think it sounds cooler. Like I say, I just think this, this helps you. You could, uh, you could appear in a Billy Wilder, uh, movie if you, if you play your cards right. Um, yeah, I mean, I've told, uh, I told Rich Eisen, like, you know, Rich Eisen, you're doing well. Dick Eisen, even cooler though.

That's— I like that. Yeah, that sounds like sort of like old school, like 1930s radio announcer, like the guy who called, the guy who called like Babe Ruth games. Could definitely be that guy.

He's the bee's knees, everybody, don't you know? Here he comes, everybody, Bert Breer, everybody's ace reporter. He's covering Deflategate. Yes, I want to show you the respect you deserve as somebody who stood out there in that sweltering heat during the scandal of our times, Deflategate and all of that. But now let's move on. To a more recent one. You're talking about it in your most recent pages, which you can find wherever you find Bert Breer's great work— Sports Illustrated digitally and otherwise. Brendan Sorsby. Now, we're not talking about Fernando Mendoza. You sounds like you're familiar with the season. He—

I am. Yeah, he had a nice year.

Another IU guy, though. Brendan Sorsby went on and wore the red and black in a couple other places as well.

Now, is that the one Kurt Cignetti ditched then? Didn't he ditch?

I think so. I think so.

And maybe he knew the trouble was coming.

Well, I mean, it did kind of indicate on the side that, uh, that Coach Seig— right, let's see if he, if his empire can exist beyond Fernando. I think the early returns indicate that they probably have a chance of surviving this and bridging the gap. We'll see about that. But Brendan Sorsby was a ne'er-do-well, apparently putting some bank down, although it's a little bit of the Pete Rose as manager of his team. At least as long as you're betting against your team. That's the real problem. But either way, um, how big an issue is this? Let's say, okay, supplement— a supplemental draft, he's available to you, you really like him as a football player. How many teams will it be, all 32, that say we can't have a guy that's engaging in gambling on the games that he's playing in, so it's a non-starter for us?

No, I, I think there's going to be a bunch that'll consider him, and obviously a lot of it's relative to your own quarterback position and and who you have at that spot. Um, but I, I think this is as high-end a quarterback prospect that's entered the supplemental draft probably since the '80s. You know, you had, um, Steve Walsh in '89.

I remember the Steve Walsh experience, and a lot of people forget that Jimmy Johnson at least sort of kind of hinted that he liked Steve Walsh better than Troy Aikman in the moment.

Yep, that's right. And then, and then, and then Bernie Kosar before that, of course, in '84 when he steered himself to Cleveland. And so Um, you know, I, I think it's, it's interesting because I've talked to people that I think, you know, if you heard their names, you'd really respect, um, Dave, that view him as a potential top 5 pick in the '27 draft, who think that he's up there with Arch Manning and C.J. Carr and Dontay Moore among the guys that are going to be competing to go at the highest end of that draft. And, you know, so I think what's in front of teams now, if you can get past the gambling issue, is, you know, an opportunity again if he doesn't get his injunction on Monday in Lubbock. You know, we'll see how that goes. But if he doesn't get his injunction, probably declares the supplemental draft. And then the opportunity in front of these teams is maybe I can take care of my quarterback situation now. You know, maybe I can take a guy that would be up there with an Arch Manning, with a Dontay Moore, with a C.J. Carr in 2027, get him in my building early.

and start working with him now. And maybe I don't even have to spend a first-round pick to do it. So I think a lot of it's going to be relative, like how you, how you see him versus the other guys. And, you know, I can tell you for a fact, teams are already digging in on him and studying him and preparing for the contingency that he does wind up becoming available in the supplemental draft. Now, the gambling issue is another piece of it. And that, that I think, you know, a lot of that's going to come down to how the league rules on this. There is the Terrell Pryor precedent from 2011. And I think a lot of people forget that the NCAA actually suspended him first and the NFL was matching that suspension. So it was a 6-game suspension from the NCAA. The NFL didn't want to provide safe harbor for guys who are in situations like Terrell's, so they matched the suspension. You can't really match a banishment, you know. So, you know, I think the first piece of this, of course, is the NFL accepting him into the supplemental draft. If he doesn't get that injunction.

And then the next piece would be, okay, is the NFL just going to let him in, or is the NFL going to make him serve some sort of suspension, going to—

well, as far as that goes, sorry to, sorry to interrupt you, but do you get a sense that maybe the league considers Brendan Sorsby, where he is, sort of a great sacrificial lamb to send a message to all future, um, players who— the answer into this situation?

Yeah, the answer I think is, to at least some degree, yes, because The NCAA is treating this as a precedent setter, which is why they're fighting the way they are. You know, this is— I mean, look, like, we've seen horrible things happen in sports, right? Things that from a human perspective are much worse than this. But betting on your own team is sort of a cardinal sin in sports. And it really calls the entire construct of the sport into question. And so it becomes an existential thing for for, for, for the big sports leagues and the NCAA. So the NCAA has set the precedent here. We're not going to allow this in our, in our, in our organization and in our schools. We will not allow this. So they drew that line in the sand and we'll see how the courts rule going forward. The NFL is in an interesting spot here because this didn't happen under their watch. And so how do they handle it? And that's where you need to pay attention to who Brendan Soaresby hired. It's Jeffrey Kessler, who's like a boogeyman for the pro sports leagues. You know, he has represented the big unions in almost every sport in strikes and lockouts.

And so does the NFL want to get into some sort of legal fight with Jeffrey Kessler? And, you know, and I think what Jeffrey Kessler's argument here would be, well, it didn't happen under your watch. And the NFL, you are a trade association. It is up to your companies to determine whether or not this guy is employable. And once he is in our— in your trade association, then you can punish him for things that happen while he's in the trade association, but you can't do it before that. So it's a fascinating case. And my guess would be that Sorsby's camp will probably work to come to some sort of resolution with the NFL. Before you get to any of that. So at least everybody knows the landscape going forward.

Super interesting stuff as we have Fernando Mendoza and Kirk Cousins landing in Sin City and Brendan Sorsby going— we'll see somewhere else in pro football.

But I would tell you this on that, like, think about this though. Like, not to cut you off, Dave, but like the Jets, the Dolphins, the Cardinals, the Browns, all those teams for the most part kept their powder dry. and not taking a quarterback all that high. Like, the Cardinals took Carson Beck in the 3rd round. The Jets took Cade Klubdig in the 4th round. But for the most part, those teams kept their powder dry on drafting a quarterback high in 2027. So I think those teams all become teams to watch when it comes to—

well, yeah, those are not high-end teams. If I followed the list you just said, there's another team that probably should be QB desperate that plays on the banks of the Three Rivers. We'll get to them on the other side of that Ohio-Pennsylvania border, though. Some intrigue around Miles Garrett. I thought it was weird that you said a week ago that Todd Monken and Miles Garrett have never met each other. I mean, it's May, man. What gives here? That— is that something that we should be shrugging off as fans, or, or, or is that— or are you struck by the face of the team not having met the new coach who's been around?

I wouldn't shrug it off. I mean, I can think you just judge them on their actions. Like, they had a a roster bonus or an option bonus that was like to be executed in March, and they moved that back to September. Now, that doesn't really affect the payment of the, of the $29 million much. It just affects the Browns' ability to trade the contract, because if they execute that option bonus with the deferred payments in March, they can't undo that. That money's gone. But if it's pushed to September, now they can still trade that chunk of the contract along with the rest of it. So there's that piece of it. You know, there's the June 1st date, which is a big one coming up on Monday. And look, like, I think from a timeline perspective, if you look at where the Browns are, they've tried to get a lot younger in the wake of the Travis Hunter trade last year. And they did a good job of putting together a rookie class last year to serve as the foundation of that with guys like Carson Swessinger and Mason Graham and Harold Fannin and Quinshon Judkins.

Um, and you know, this year they come back and, and they add Spencer Fano and Casey Concepcion and Denzel Boston. And so my question would be, do the timelines match up? Do the timelines of those guys match up with the timeline of Myles Garrett, who's going to turn 31 at the end of this year? And if you say to yourself, well, maybe their quarterback isn't on the roster yet in Cleveland, right? The real quarterback of the future isn't on the roster. Well, then that means maybe you're not a real contender till '27 or '28 when Garrett's going to be 32 or 33. And now if you try to trade him, then the value isn't close to the same as it would be right now. So whether it happens next week, um, in a month before the trade deadline, I think this is going to be something we're all going to be following. And I do think that there are a lot of teams that would be interested in acquiring him. And I do think the Browns could still get a pretty massive return. Which I think would, you know, supercharge the— it's hard to replace Miles Garrett, don't get me wrong, but, um, you know, having a couple more first-round picks, maybe a young player, um, coming in would help to, to really, you know, put a jet pack on that youth movement they've got going.

Well, I mean, just imagine, I mean, you can— it's not hard to tick off the teams that feel real close but lack primarily, above all other needs, probably a difference-making guy on the edge there. Bills and Ravens, that's an easy list to to, uh, to go through right at the top there.

Yeah, I mean, the Bears have been looking for a guy opposite Montez Sweat. To me, the Rams are really interesting. Yeah, I mean, they just drafted, um, they just drafted Ty Simpson in the first round, which means they don't need to worry as much about where we're going to get our quarterback in '27 or '28 to eventually replace Matthew Stafford. I think those picks become more movable for them now, and they could give you a young edge rusher back because they've got a couple of those, you know. The Eagles are always in these things. Their cap situation is a little tighter, so I'm not sure about them quite as much. But there are definitely teams there that I think would, would be in the mix. And again, like, I would, I would look at it this way, Dave. Like, if you're Cleveland and you can get, say, 2 ones and a young player for him, whatever the, whatever that is, right? What's that going to look like in 2 years if you try to trade him 2 years from now? You know, and I just think of. Like Khalil Mack, like what he was traded for when he was traded from the, uh, from the Bears, from the Raiders to the Bears, and then how much less it was when it was the Bears to the Chargers.

You know, what Stefon Diggs was traded for when he went from the Vikings to the Bills, and how much less it was when it was from the Bills to the Vikings, or from the Bills to the Texans. Like, I think those are the things that you have to consider when you're looking at something like this and you're considering what the Browns' strategy might be.

Well, listen, what you also describe, a more recent example that should maybe spook the Browns about what happens in 2 or 3 years, is the Pittsburgh Steelers and the deal they made with TJ Watt. 13, 14 months or so ago, I was saying that whether it sounds disloyal or whatever, the Steelers really like the one uniform thing. Me as a Pittsburgh dork also loves that the legends, its greatest legends, spend their entire careers wearing only black and gold. And that's not just in football. I love that with all the, with all the guys. But it was unwise to ink TJ Watt, and there are at least rumors that they're open to trading him. I think that that's probably a non-starter based on exactly what you're describing, because he is 32. He is what Miles Garrett— I mean, they're not the same player, but, uh, but you're picking up what I'm laying down. He is in fact unmovable, correct?

I think he'd be hard to move. Yeah, I mean, like, I, and I, I, I think the world of TJ Watt as a player. I know there were teams, I know there were teams that like, like by the end of last year felt like Alex Highsmith was more of a, of an issue for them when they're game planning against the Steelers defense than Watt was. Just sort of what it was by the end of the year last year, you know. And I, and I think that that's, it's an interesting strategy the Steelers have taken because To me, the hire of Mike McCarthy was ownership saying, we do not want to sink to the bottom of the league. We do not want to go through a rebuild. I think most of us on the outside looked at it and, you know, you see some of the older pieces, Jalen Ramsey, Cam Hayward, TJ Watt, you know, even DK Metcalf's got a lot of mileage for a guy who's going to be 29 years old. And you look at it and you say, okay, like, this is probably the time with Mike Tomlin gone to rip the Band-Aid off.

And go and hire a young coach like you always have, whether that be like, you know, a Chris Shula or an Isidoro Evero, whoever it is, like bringing in a young coach that would sort of fit the mold of what you've always had there. And instead they turn around and they hire a guy who, and I love Mike McCarthy, but did you know that the, on his first day of work, he became the oldest coach in Steelers history. Isn't that incredible? On his very first day of work. And I think a lot of Mike McCarthy as a coach, but that's the reality of it. Like it was a let's win now. And then you see their actions, right? They got older. They signed Ja'Mell Dean, who's almost 30, to play corner. They signed Michael Pittman, who I think is going into his 8th year to play receiver. They signed a running back, Enrico Dowdle, who's going into his 8th year. And so like I, you know, you could see the wheels turning on Aaron Rodgers coming back, but also You know, with guys like TJ Watt, I, I, you know, you do, you can feel the reluctance to let go of that core.

And, you know, I thought last year was going to be the last swing, and that's why I thought it was such a, I thought it was a really good idea to bring in Rodgers, because if you're going to take the last swing, like, swing hard, you know. But it seems like they, you know, that last swing is now becoming the second to last swing with these guys.

Well, it's silly, and they continue to go into the, you know, it's not trying to, as I always say, fuel the jet at 30,000 feet that I resent. In fact, I support that, especially in a year-to-year league. The idea that, um, that you should take a season off— first of all, look at the teams that have intentionally tanked entire seasons. Did it work out for those teams? No, largely it hasn't. But beyond that, yes, year to year. My misread, or based on what you're saying, is, was, and remains McCarthy is there even though he's older than the other QB whisperers out there. He's a guy, you know, a quarter century into developing quarterbacks and getting the best version of those guys. It makes sense to me to bring him in to develop one of the young guys, or a few of the young guys. The Rodgers thing is where it gets sideways to me, and I'm disappointed that they're kind of— it, you know, there are some— there, there's a sentiment going around that this is ownership saying we're not taking a season off, and that's— we're the ones who want Aaron Rodgers in there to sort of grease the skids instead of doing the, as they pull the Band-Aid off and sort of start a kind of soft start, a new era with one of the young guys.

The problem is that they let all those options come and go. And I, you know, you're an Ohio State guy. I think most football fans know that at this point, that Bert Breer is a diehard with the Buckeyes. So, you know, Will Howard on a couple of levels here. I think the thing that Steelers fans need to understand is Will Howard might work out, Drew Aller might work out. But both of them are big long shots. Mike McCarthy might be able to develop one or both of them, but it's highly unlikely. The swings to take— you say swing big on Rodgers. No 40-plus guy besides Tom Brady has ever gotten to a Super Bowl, so I think it's sort of delusional to think that that guy's going to be the one to offset 60 years of Super Bowl era history. Um, but I also think, you know, taking swings on Jackson Dart, who's in the news if you haven't heard. Um, but you know that, you know, there were a number, you know, Kyler Murray and, uh, and, uh, Malik Willis and otherwise could have been options for the Steelers. Instead, they leaned in here.

Do you think— it's to me, you look at the Rams, who are legit Super Bowl contenders, they have the reigning MVP, and then underneath him, they're developing Ty Simpson. Pretty sorry version of that going on in Pittsburgh. You have a 43-year-old man who doesn't like a pass rush and these longshot guys that people are looking to, like maybe Will Howard can develop. Do you buy that on any level, bouncing off of McCarthy and other—

well, I mean, like part of the way this all worked out, I will say they do want to get a look at Will Howard. Um, you know, it doesn't mean he's going to become anything, but like I do know that part of the setting of the date that he was going to show up on the first day of OTAs was Mike McCarthy wanted to run basically like a 100-level of his offense to the players, you know, early on and wanted to get a good look at Will Howard and see, you know, where the team stood at the position. They drafted Drew Aller in the third round. So like, I think the hope would be that Will Howard beats out Mason Rudolph and then your depth chart is Rodgers, Howard.

But there's no way. But they can't let Mason Rudolph. I mean, again, I'm talking about what their mindset is. Is.

Then you carry 4, then do you carry 4? Because like, then Aller's on the team. Aller was a 3rd-round pick. They're not cutting Aller.

So they're definitely not cutting Aller. That's right. And they're not going to cut Mason Rudolph if they think of themselves the way they operate. And again, we're in a new era here with Mike McCarthy, but still, given, you know, the Steeler way, as much as that is a thing in 2026, I, I don't buy that if they perceive themselves to be viable Super Bowl contenders that they are going to risk the season with Will Howard.

So would you keep 4?

No, I think that they have to say goodbye to Will Howard.

Yeah, and that could be— and look, like, you're right. I mean, everybody points back to Tom Brady going 199th or Russell Wilson going in the 3rd round. Like, those are extreme outliers. Like, the, the last 4 quarterbacks standing last year were, you know, Drake Maye, who's the 3rd pick in the draft, Bo Nix, who was the 12th pick in the draft, Matthew Stafford, who was the first pick in the draft, and Sam Darnold, who was the third pick in the draft, you know. So even the reclamation project in there, right? Sam Darnold went third overall. Like, at that position, the way that position is analyzed, guys just don't slip through the cracks the way they used to at all, you know. The way it's developed, the way guys can transfer around, all the different like safety nets that there are here and there for guys who might slip through the cracks at some point. Like, I it, it's become harder and harder to find a really good one outside of the first round. So I would agree with that, um, but I don't mind the approach of, of throwing darts at the dartboard, you know what I mean?

Like, I think you just have to keep taking swings. I disagree with what you just said, as a matter of fact. Brock Purdy is, you know, Mr. Relevant.

There's one.

I don't think Brock— but I also always say you have to put the asterisk next to it. Brock Purdy doesn't work in any football situation. He's with Kyle Shanahan. And so if you buy that broad logic, then if you— then Mike McCarthy should be able to get the best version of someone viable out there. Well, the issue is, is there any— are any of those 4 guys in Pittsburgh real guy, difference-making guys? And my answer is probably no.

Yeah. And that's why, I mean, again, like, you know, it's, it's interesting. Like, Russell Wilson in Seattle was a 3rd-round pick, right? How many people do you hear talking about how the Seahawks traded for Charlie Whitehurst or um, or, or signed Matt Flynn. Like, the Seahawks threw a lot of darts at the dartboard, you know. They brought back Matt Hasselbeck for a year. They had Tavaris Jackson there. Like, they, they, they swung and swung and swung, and then in the third year they hit. So I, I don't mind the idea of continuing to swing at the position. Um, you know, I think that that's, you know, worst-case scenario, especially with the guy who's not a first-round pick, as the guy becomes a long-term backup for you. And you wind up saving, you know, a few million dollars a year because, um, you have the guy on a rookie contract.

Okay, two more real quick for you and then you go. You mentioned the Browns. I, you know, a year ago again, people were making fun of them. They took Dylan Gabriel and Shedeur and they already have Watson and Flatt. They're taking swings. It's the quarterback league. Until you solve that, you're not a, you're not a real contender. So I credit them. But in the here and now, Does money play in Cleveland this year? Is it Watson?

I think, yeah, I think my guess would be Watson starts the season and you will probably see Shedeur get extended time too as they figure out where they're going at the position. Um, because barring them taking Brendon Sorsby in the supplemental draft, this is obviously going to be a pretty big decision point for everyone in that building after this year, whether you have one in-house Who you're going to take if you don't in the '27 draft, which I think everybody expects to be pretty good at the position. So here's the thing with Watson. I mean, to me, it's much easier to go from Watson to Sanders whenever you need to do that than it would be to go from Sanders back to Watson. Right. So I think that's number one. Number two, Todd Monken has made like offenses work with tons of different quarterbacks. If you want to go back into his history, you'll find David Garrard. In Jacksonville. You'll find Brandon Whedon at Oklahoma State. You'll find Jameis Winston, Ryan Fitzpatrick in Tampa. You'll find, you know, Stetson Bennett at Georgia. You'll find Lamar Jackson with the Ravens. So he's made it work for a lot of different types of quarterbacks.

And, you know, I think with Watson, what would be worse than just wasting the 3 first-round picks and $230 million would be not giving him a chance this year and seeing him go ball out somewhere else. So if I'm the Browns, like, I want to find out if there's something there. I want to find out. And maybe it takes me 4 games or 6 games or 8 games to find out, but I at least want to have a final answer given all of that time and all of that money that's been spent on him, you know. Your investment in him is still much greater than your investment in Shadur Sanders or Dylan Gabriel is. And so I think, you know, the first thing you do is you endeavor to get an answer on, on if there's anything there with Watson. And then you, you maybe get a look at Sanders. I, I think you probably are where you are with Gabriel, which I think Dylan Gabriel's got a chance to play in the league for a long time, but he's probably a career backup. Um, so, you know, you, you, you, I think, get— try to— you're going to try to get as complete an idea of what you have at quarterback going 27 as you possibly can.

Oh man, I see— to me, it's my— the rolling discussion that I think I lean into more than any other where pro football is concerned, and it is the guy at the trigger and then the guy coaching him up and the difference that that has made in pro football this millennium. Um, you know, Kyle Shanahan more valuable to the Niners than Brock Purdy is, and as we've now seen, Ben Johnson more valuable to the Lions than, than Dan Campbell is, or Jared Goff to that point. Who coached Matt Flynn again when he was in Green Bay? Oh yes, it was Mike McCarthy, which brings me back to my last question here. I believe in McCarthy as the better coach for right now, for this team, for this roster, and for developing the next quarterback who they get, whether it's Sorsby or they draft him next year or otherwise. The thing that I stumbled across last week all of a sudden was the realization, oh wait, Mike Tomlin's gone, and I always call him the greatest floor raiser in the sport. Should we not just be assuming that the Steelers meet their usual level of, you know, 9 wins or whatever?

Is that somehow in jeopardy because of this change? I definitely like McCarthy better than Tomlin, given that Tomlin felt outmoded, but I also think he, like I say, made sure that they, you know, they never had a losing season either.

So I did this blind test with people, um, and I had 4 coaches, and McCarthy was one of them. And his record, his career record over nearly 2 decades, was remarkably similar to the other 3 coaches. Do you know the other 3 coaches were? Tell me, huh?

I, I want you to tell me. I would guess Harbaugh.

Harbaugh.

Tomlin.

Yep. Right.

Who else is relatively consistent? I'm trying—

you got 2 of the 3. Shanny? Sean Payton. Ah, so I mean, I, I think sometimes optics play into this. Obviously there's a lot of like the back and forth with him and Rodgers back at the end of Green Bay. And I, like, I think sometimes Mike, Mike can come off— Mike's a really smart guy who sometimes, who doesn't, who can come off as kind of folksy.

You know, and like, it's that Pittsburgh accent.

And not really, yeah, but he has done down to earth. I mean, like, I think you'd surprise people if you told him, and this just happened, he just won 12 games 3 years in a row in Dallas. Like, I think most people would be surprised if you told them he did that. You know what I mean?

Because you're right.

And as a perception thing, you know what I mean? Like, most people don't perceive him that way. Like, If Jon Harbaugh came in and won 12 games 3 years in a row in Dallas, they'd be like, my God, what a great job he's done. And I, I don't know why it is. Maybe it's anti-Enzer. I don't know, maybe you should look into that, Dave.

But I've looked into it, Bert, and it's, it's well covered. Hollywood, I don't know why, hates Pittsburgh, PA, the city of champions. Maybe it resents it for all of our success, all of our titles all over the place. But the facts are the facts. Black Sunday is a terrorist attack on Super Bowl X featuring the Pittsburgh Pittsburgh Steelers in Heaven Can Wait. The Rams win in overtime. Warren Beatty installs himself as the quarterback as a ghost. He's a ghost. He jumps into the body of the Rams. Long story. Who do they beat in that Super Bowl? The Pittsburgh Steelers in overtime. Like I say, in, uh, in, uh, uh, sudden death. Terrorist attack at the Stanley Cup Final. Who's playing in it? The Pittsburgh Penguins. The natural bird. You remember the football field they call it Gotham? That's Pittsburgh, man. That whole thing when Hines Ward runs for the touchdown, that, that's Pittsburgh. And, and in the natural, when Hobbs hits a home run, who does he do it against? The Pittsburgh Pirates. And while he takes his glorious run around the bases and he's celebrating with his teammates, dangerous shards of glass are falling on Pittsburgh Pirates outfielders.

What, what's, what's, what, what gives you—

I want you to investigate this. I didn't realize this level of persecution was underway. Like, thank you for educating me.

Hey, uh, that's what you need to investigate, Bert Breer. I don't know if you heard Dan Lebatard said last week sports journalism is dead. I don't want you to go into a 5-minute thing here for your sake, but, uh, I, I— you're one of the people who legitimately is toeing that line. How does that hit you given the world in which we live in, two realities and all that? It feels—

yeah, I mean, thanks for saying that. Um, I, I'd say it's an interesting question because I know—

because by the way, I do need to say The reason I know how seriously you take it, I went to Indiana University, the School of Journalism and all of that. And I remember being struck by, man, the people. This is borderline religious, the, the, the, the importance of journalism in our society. And I remember being struck by that when you and I were in a New Orleans bar for that Super Bowl. And I remember you going into great detail about the meaning of your, of you coming up in Dallas and the influence that the guys learned learning at their knee and what that meant to you and all of that. So I sincerely know that you take it dead seriously.

Yeah. So I mean, like, I grew up reading like the Boston Globe that I grew up reading was like an all-star team, you know. And so Will McDonough was the guy that I looked up to the most. But you can go down the list of the guys that were there. I mean, Peter Gammons, Bob Ryan, Dan Shaughnessy.

Sure. You know, when I was in high school, Bob Ryan's getting a little bit too crazy with the Bill Russell as the greatest of all time.

But okay, it's a little—

okay.

But yeah, I mean, like, I think you can check Shaq, Bill. I think it's— I think on it, like, there's— look, like, I think, you know, it's our job to kind of create a record of everything that's going on. And, you know, I, I've always viewed my job as to have an idea of what's happening inside the league with all 32 teams and and be able to deliver the best information I can in as many mediums as I can. And I think one thing for all of us now is meeting the audience where they're at. And so whether that's on social media, whether that's through video, whether that's through podcasting or writing, there's ways to do it. You know what I mean? There's lots of ways to do it. I I think Pablo Torre is a great example of that. Like, what he is doing is journalism, you know? And I think most people listening to it probably wouldn't identify it as that, but it's journalism at its root, you know? Sure. So, you know, I think that that's sort of where I'm at on that. Like, I've been fortunate to work at some places that I, you know, I mean, the Boston Globe, the Dallas Morning News, we were together at NFL Network, Sports Illustrated now, that have great legacies, but I mean, it's not my job to do the job the way that guys in the '50s and '60s would have done it.

There's still fundamentals that I think we all should adhere to that they adhered to. And the important stuff, how you gather information, your ethics, all that's the same, you know, but how you deliver it's much different. And so I've got to do the job differently than those guys did. I tell you this, like, One of the most useful things for me was when I left NFL Network and went to SI, I sort of challenged myself to, to pay attention to what I'm consuming, because I think a lot of times people in our business, what they want to do and what they're actually consuming are two completely different things. And that helped. And the other thing that helped me was having—

I think that is such a great point, man, that it seems so obvious that I think a lot of people get away from. Right, right. You know, in comedy writing, they say write what you know.

Right, right. And then I think the other thing is like, it's— I just take a look at your kids and how they're consuming stuff. I mean, the way I did this was the way a lot of kids my age did it, was I'd go to the end of the driveway and pick up the paper and read the sports page cover to cover, you know what I mean? Like, how many kids are doing that now? Zero, you know?

So Wednesdays were the biggest day for me coming home from school because I knew Sports Illustrated was waiting in the mailbox for me.

It was on the COVID It was mine. It was mine on Thursday, and I would, I would devour that thing, you know? Like and they just, they, they don't consume it the same way. So just pay attention because, you know, I've got an 11, 9, and 6-year-old now, and they're going to be in the core audience before you know it, you know, like, so I think that's like the important thing is like the, the fundamentals are still the same. It's just how you deliver, um, the content is, is, is what's always changing and what you need to keep up with.

I gotta say, man, you struck me from the first time before I ever met you face to face, watching you do stuff. You always had an old-school presence, and that's why Bert Breer really did seem to suit you. But you have, over the last 20 years, transitioned pretty neatly in a tough environment. Things have changed so wildly that you now have landed clean on the other side, like I say, with our pal Kent Brown and Matt Verderame and, uh, and Connor Orr and all the other greats over there.

It's— Kent Brown was a good pull. I didn't know you and Kent knew each other, but it makes sense.

Oh yeah, dude, he's from Wilmerding. You go, you go over to Johnny's and tell him Kent Brown's mom sent you down there for the pork chops with the peppers, the cherry peppers.

Wait, say it again. What's the name of the place?

It's Johnny's in Wilmerding.

Johnny's in Wilmerding.

Okay. Yeah, get over there.

Yeah, they're Ken Brown pork chops from Johnny's in Wilmerding. Okay.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. Um, no, you're, you're, uh, you're doing great work. Keep up the great work, and we appreciate the time. And, uh, and best wishes. Maybe we can connect in season and check in on the Buckeyes in the, uh, in the conference that now belongs to the Hoosiers.

Of course. Uh, and I, I I don't have the date in front of me, but, uh, maybe we can— maybe we can circle that date on the calendar when the Buckeyes are in Bloomington and do something right around then.

No, you know what, if you want to meet me at the 50 and settle all hash right there, we can do it. Halftime, pregame, I don't care, whenever you want it.

10 paces and turn, right?

That's right, that's right. I was just talking fisticuffs, but if you want to have some gunplay, I'm open to all options here. In the meantime, like I say, keep up the great work, Bert Breer.

Thanks, Dave, appreciate you having me.

There he goes. What stood out to you? A lot of good info there. What about the Brendan Sorsby thing? Let's say it does work out that he is eligible in, you know, a couple of weeks here. Boy, all of a sudden an interesting name to consider, eh, Mike Fuentes?

Yeah, me and Gino were actually talking when you were talking to Albert about like what the supplemental draft is because it's always like a miracle.

I just made it Clarice Burke.

Well, Albert, like my dad's name was Albert, so I'm going to call him Albert.

Albert the alligator.

I don't think I called my dad Bert once in his life. Do you know? Did it? Did it? That's more like something for—

I don't think I ever called him anything but Dad.

Yeah, I think I called him Albert.

Do you think he's a Bert or an Albert? Is he—

seems like a Bert.

Breer. I can go with the Bert.

Is Bert always Albert? Like, is Bert Reynolds Albert Reynolds?

No.

When I think Bert, I think of like Bert and Ernie. So I think it's almost like insulting to call him Bert. Yeah, because that's like—

I think if you're Bert, B-U-R-T, I think that's it. I don't think you're Albert or anything. I think you're just Bert.

Well, anyway, supplementals.

Bert Reynolds was Bert. Maybe Burton Leon Reynolds Jr.

See, now you could be messing up Albert Breer because what if people think his name is Burton? What if his name is Burton Breer? That's terrible.

Although it rhymes.

Go ahead, explain. Go ahead. Tell everybody about the supplemental.

The supplemental draft. So it's something you always hear about. And you know that, like, Ethan Young, Ethan, he thought, hey, you just lose a pick. Pick, but the way it's actually done is it's actually 3 separate lotteries, Dave. It's the team with 6 or fewer wins in Tier 1, the rest of non-playoff teams in Tier 2, and then the 14 playoff teams in Tier 3. So what it actually is, is 3 separate lotteries to determine a draft order. So then you think, okay, well now we're just making picks. No, it's a blind pick. You have to submit the name and the round you would take the player, and then if you get outbid by another team, that team gets the pick. And then as we—

that's awesome.

They lose that pick in the upcoming draft, the next draft. So we were thinking, you know, let's do every draft that way.

Yeah, I, I agree with you. No, that does seem like a lot of fun, dude. That seems like a grand old time, right?

So we were thinking, you know, uh, it's funny that you, that you were talking about this because me and Gina were talking off mic. We're like, man, Cardinals, Jets, and Dolphins, they'd be in the same exact 3 teams plus the Browns that Bert Breer had said.

And then, I mean, I guess even the Steelers too.

Well, that's what— that was my next thing. Dave's eventually going to put the Steelers in Which, it all makes sense. And then Geno was like—

Of course!

Yeah, and then Geno's like, well, you can't really give up anything more than a second, right?

Well, I mean, the smart thing would not be to give up anything more than a third because then you can get a compensatory pick. You know, you can maybe make up for it in some way. But all these teams already have kind of a, you know, they kind of have some skin in the game in terms of a quarterback. You've got Carson Beck. They spent a third-round pick on him. I mean, even Pittsburgh spent a third-round pick on Drew Aller. So, I mean—

I should know this. I'm embarrassed to ask this question, but I'm going to do it for the good of the football-loving public. What round pick did the Browns have to give up for Bernie Kosar?

Let's see.

I think that if, uh, you know, that's why I started with the question to Bert about the issue, you know, the gambling question, and if that's just gonna, you know, be a non-starter for teams. Because if you like him as a football player, if you think he is on par with Arch Manning, then what's in the way of using your first round pick? I'll tell you right now, their quarterback of the future 8 months or 10 months before anybody else takes a swing at a QB.

If the Browns did what they did with Deshaun Watson, then this should be no problem. With the history—

I think people—

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I think, you know, if you think you're going to wind up with a top 3 overall pick, maybe that changes things.

But that's it, because a lot of these teams are in real dire straits. The Jets are probably going to finish up there. The Cardinals might be the worst team in the league. The Dolphins might be the worst team in the league.

I mean, Art and I both just said it. You got to take swings. You got to keep taking swings. This counts as taking a swing at a high-end talent, unless you think, well, we can't have him, he's a ne'er-do-well, he bet on his team, and we don't want to bring that into our building.

Well, the Browns took a big swing in the 1985 supplemental draft, Dave. They gave up their first and third round in 1985 and their first and sixth round, uh, to the Bills to get—

to get the first pick in the supplemental draft.

First round picks, a third round pick, and a sixth round pick.

So they made a bunch of trades just to get the number one pick. In the supplemental draft. Well, just assuming they had to give up compensation.

It was to land Bernie Kosar, that's all.

Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.

All right, I want to— listen, we have a lot to talk about now. We're, we're already out of time. Why? Because Dave doesn't shut his yap. Um, but as quickly as we can, I think this Knickerbockers thing reminds me of— I mean, I get it, it's the capital of the world, NYC, but it also takes on this thing, and I'm reminded of— because I guess New York has maybe been out of the limelight in terms of its teams playing for a championship of late, and so I gotten this feeling, but New Yorkers have a way of making it seem like nothing matters unless it's in New York. And that's— and that Amin El-Hassan declares that a title in New York is worth 100 anywhere else is a little bit of hyperbole.

No, I don't know about that, Dave. I think he's right.

I think he's right. But I'll tell you right now, okay? I'll tell you right now.

They perpetuate it that way. Yeah, I think New York has a bigger influence on the rest of America than the rest of us can see, especially, especially. But I'm allowed to be resentful of that, especially in the Rangers winning the '94 Stanley Cup was not— what's that?

Go ahead.

Especially in basketball when it comes to New York, like they're, they're known as like basketball town, like Basketball USA.

New York, New York would move like the earth would literally move in New York if the Knicks won a title. We've seen the Giants win 2 titles in, in recent memory and there were celebrations, sure. And when the Yankees won the title, there were celebrations, sure. But nothing would match the Knicks, especially since it's been since the '70s since they actually brought home a title. So yeah, this would be— Amin said it on the show on Thursday, like, the city will burn to the ground and they will not know— they will have nothing left.

What a tribute to their heroes. We're gonna burn the city down. I love the, the reflected powers that, that you become above the law for one night, at least if your team wins the title. Weird. Um, amidst all this Knickerbocker celebration is also the Jackson Dart stuff. He introduced the President of the United States at a rally earlier in the week and is catching a lot of flak and a lot of praise for doing it. Um, before I jump in, let me say I love free speech. It lets people tell on themselves. It's great. And I'm not saying Jackson Dart is doing that, but he's telling you where he stands on all of this. And you might remember a decade ago, like we talked about, Colin Kaepernick Kaepernick got himself into trouble for taking a knee, and then Malcolm Jenkins of the Philadelphia Eagles built on that and raised a fist in support of what Kaepernick was doing, and he caught a lot of flak in Philadelphia. And then his teammate Chris Long went over the next game and put his arm around Malcolm Jenkins. I asked Chris Long about that. Take a listen to his answer.

Everybody's heart was in the right place, man. You know, just trying to be decent. You know, that's all. And that's why some of the praise I got was a little uncomfortable for me because like I I'm, you know, I'm just being decent, you know. And I, I do think, like, you know, as you fast forward 8, 10 years later, we are less decent than we've ever been as a country. And, um, you know, I got two takes landing pretty well this week. I think one of them is that Tua wasn't a starting quarterback, and the other was that, you know, I didn't want to go to the White House to meet that, that individual, uh, twice. And, uh, I feel like a lot of people owe me apologies for some of the criticisms and the messages I got, because it really transcended politics. It is about decency. It's about patriotism. And I don't feel very patriotic right now. I don't think a lot of people do.

By the way, that's not to say that Chris Long definitely agrees with Malcolm Jenkins on everything that Malcolm Jenkins did. And in fact, I never asked Chris Long, do you agree with him? Like I say, he transcended politics as much as that. That's politics, and he was merely decent. And maybe that's the place we need to get to. The idea that you're not allowed to use your voice, you know, as a celebrity, and that's what you are if you're the starting quarterback of the New York Giants, is you can have some influence on things. To say that has no place in sports betrays the relationship that high-end athletes have had in American society for at least a century now. Now, do you fellas know that Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig campaigned for the Democratic presidential candidate Al Smith in 1928? Wilt Chamberlain campaigned with Dick Nixon. You know who else campaigned with Dick Nixon back in 1960? Jackie Robinson. Jackie Robinson then 8 years later campaigned against Dick Nixon when he figured out who Dick Nixon was. But again, the point is that, um, that free speech is free, kinda, but it does have consequences to it.

You know, Colin Kaepernick can tell you about that. Muhammad Ali can tell you about that. Bill Russell can explain it to you as well. I just think that maybe Jackson Dart doesn't— in our world in which all the movies now have multiverses, I think real life now we live in a multiverse. I think there are in fact two realities for us. I don't think it ever entered Jackson Dart's mind or Abdulkader's mind to say like, wait, people think that way? I had no idea. I thought everybody would be on my side.

Yeah, Dave, so I'm 41 years old now. When people ask me, hey, you know, like, who are you as a person, right? And I'm like, I didn't even realize who I think I was, so I was probably in my early 30s So I think we expect way too much of a 23-year-old kid who, let's, let's face it, has probably been handed everything to him since he was 15 years old, told he's the best at what he's doing his whole life.

He's a millionaire, you see his woman. He has not dealt with a whole lot of friction.

Exactly.

The biggest, probably the most sandpaper he's ever confronted in the last 15 years was like, I don't know if you're a first-round pick in the NFL, Jackson Dart.

We're just expecting way too much out of a 23-year-old, just turned 23 years old 3 months ago. So probably expecting way too much from that guy.

I— well, what I think it really comes back to is we can list off. I can say, well, here's why from the other side of things. Here's why Donald Trump is problematic or from the other, other side. Here's why I thought Joe Biden was problematic and go back and forth on all that. I think when you go at Jackson Dart and he should be made aware of the consequences. Be asked, why did you come to this? Did you arrive at your support of the president because of the poli sci courses you took while you were at Ole Miss? Or is it just one of those things like religion that you accepted in your household, that your parents were aligned politically or philosophically or religiously in a certain way and you followed suit? Because I bet you that that's the answer to all of this. He probably has not spent a ton of time considering that. And I think that's what Dan Lebatard and other people have gotten at this week. Week is you should consider it. And if you're going to use your platform, you should at least be able to explain yourself. But I am all for standing up and using your voice for whatever you want to.

You just need to understand, especially in the world we live in now, not everybody's going to embrace it, right? I think that's that. We've said it all. Um, I don't know if I made any sense there. I'm trying to make sense of this divided reality in which we live. Um, but I do appreciate, uh, Bert Breer for joining us for a little conversation amidst all that's going on here. Enjoy your NBA Finals, enjoy your Stanley Cup Final. Prayers up to the people of Buffalo. Next century, I don't know, hope it'll be better for you. Until then, thanks so much, my fellow football Americans. It's been a Thin Slice of Heaven.