Transcript of NBA Lie Detectors, Duren’s Future, Tomlin’s TV Splash, and a 2026 Sports Media Check With Kirk Goldsberry and Bryan Curtis

The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new Rewatchables on Monday. We did 13 Going on 30. We also premiered a hockey podcast. We've never had a hockey podcast, not at Grantland, not at the Ringer. Now we have one. It's the What Chaos Show. It's been around for a couple years. It is the best NHL podcast. Um, please go check it out. The season started this week. These guys are great. They feel very Ringer-y, and I mean that as the highest compliment I can give. I'm hopefully going on there next week or at some point this month to, to talk a little puck, 'cause we now have an 84-game regular season. Somebody decided the NHL season needed to be longer, apparently. WNBA playoffs in full swing. You can follow the Ringer WNBA Show as well. We'll be covering all the stuff, including the link's already out. Miles got hurt. The Liberty got healthy for a brief second. I think the fact that The league stopped for 3 weeks probably helped, but they knocked out the Lynx, so they're out. Fever beat the Aces tonight, and we have a Fever-Aces pivotal Game 3 coming up.

We'll see what happens. So baseball playoffs started today. You heard me talk to Sal on Sunday about how I was not optimistic about the Red Sox. I think he thought I was doing like a reverse jinx thing. The Red Sox offense died at some point in August. This team peaked in July and August with that incredible win streak. They won the city back. They ended up getting the manager. He had the interim manager removed. He became the full manager, Chad Tracy. The GM, Breslow, somehow got an extension through— he was supposed to go through '28. Now it's through '29 and '30. Still unclear why he got an extension. Because if you watch tonight, this team— Raffaella barely played in September. Contreras, who was hurt off and on and for different reasons the second half of the year and got hit in the hand 2 weeks ago, and he hasn't been the same. Trevor Storey died 5 years ago. Gasper carried the offense for 2, 3 weeks there and then got hurt, of course, right before the playoffs. So no, he's nowhere to be seen. Roman Anthony, who was hurt all year, came back, was a house of fire for a week, didn't look terrible, started to show signs of life here down the stretch this final week, and apparently got hurt again because he left halfway through the game, symbolically.

But the game was already over because the Yankees had already scored 2 runs, and there was no way the Red Sox were going to score 3 against Schlittler and the Yankee bullpen. Look, this was a pretty limited Red Sox team that couldn't score, and their only chance in this series were 1-0, 2-1, those type of games. And once the Yankees were able to put more runs than that, that was it. I did not agree with the Peyton Tolley decision to take him out in the 5th inning and bring in Miller, who has not pitched well all month. I don't know why they did that. I thought Tolley, especially in Yankee Stadium in a big spot, I just trusted him to come through. I thought he was gonna— come through and pitch at least 6 innings tonight. But Schlittler was amazing. He's— the 2 best pitchers that I saw this year were him and Cease on the Blue Jays. But Schlittler did everything he had to do. Ben Rice, who has turned into a Red Sox killer— they talked about it during the game— is from Cohasset, somehow is a Yankee fan. Um, seems like he hits the hell out of the Red Sox all the time.

So anyway, they won Game 1. They were supposed to win Game 1. I have no idea why they were only, I think, like -170 favorites for the series, because, um, again, the Red Sox offense is Effectively dead, especially Abreu, who I didn't even mention, who hasn't hit for a month either. So I don't know where the runs are supposed to come from. I said to Sal on Sunday, I probably trusted Anthony and Sogard the most of anyone in the lineup, and Anthony is now gone. And I do not have high hopes for the rest of this. But the good news is the Patriots are a disaster. Yeah. If you're doing the Boston sports, what team do I feel best about? I think it's the Celtics. Then we had the Pats playing in Buffalo this weekend. This is— you're not gonna feel bad for me. I don't expect your sympathy. But this was not, not a great Boston sports stretch, especially when you think Anthony and Drake Maye and Tatum were supposed to be the 3 people basically carrying those 3 teams and the, the, the young superstars all under 30. Anthony and Maye even younger than that.

And now I have serious concerns about 2 of them. Can Anthony stay on the field? Is Drake Maye, where is he mentally? I was driving around, my daughter had a game yesterday and I was driving, I was listening to WEI and they had their weekly Drake Maye interview, which for some reason he decided to do. I guess he had to contractually. And they asked him about his shoulder and he just gave a non-answer.

Yeah.

And then they were like, hey, can you answer this? And, and pivoted back and he just didn't answer it. So I, it doesn't seem like he's healthy. I've narrowed it down to his shoulder and, and, and his head are the 2 things to be concerned about here. And I don't feel great about either. They play Buffalo this weekend. We will talk about it on the podcast on Thursday. Coming up on this podcast, we're gonna talk to Kurt Goldsberry about a bunch of NBA Media Day opening. Opening topics, all kinds of things. And then Brian Curtis, every once in a while I have Brian Curtis on to talk about a bunch of sports media stuff. We wanna talk about football broadcasters, Mike Tomlin, best, worst playoff play-by-play and color guys and all kinds of— and we ended up talking about writing and had a typical convo that Curtis and I usually have, which I really enjoyed. Enjoyed the whole podcast. Enjoyed everything except for the Red Sox laying a stink egg in Yankee Stadium today. We're gonna take a break. Pearl Jam, and then come back with Kirk Goldsberry right after this. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by FanDuel.

The NFL is here and it's the most rewarding season ever on FanDuel with the all-time FanDuel Rewards Club. Every eligible bet can earn you points. Win or lose, you still get points. The more points, the bigger the rewards you can unlock. Head to fanduel.com/bs to start earning with FanDuel Rewards Club. 21+ select states or 18+ DC or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. Kirk Goldsberry's here recording this part of the podcast mid-afternoon Pacific time on Tuesday. You don't know this, but this is an all-Texas podcast 'cause Brian Curtis is the other guest. It's the 2 of you.

Hook 'em Horns.

Yeah, you went to a game together recently too.

We went to the Ohio State game, which was an incredible moment. I, I promised my students, Bill, if we won that game, I'd grow a mustache and wouldn't shave it until the Texas football team lost. So after a tight game in Tennessee, I still have this stupid mustache.

I thought you were just prepping for Movember, but no, it was, you bet your students. I love it. Okay.

Yeah.

Speaking of bets, Durant on the Pistons. Is, is betting that $200 million or whatever they offered is, is, uh, there's more out there. This is turning into one of the weirdest contract stories we've had. Um, I wasn't really buying in on this and, and Jaylen Duren actually pushing his way out. And yet now it feels like he might, there's a possibility he might push his way out. Are you, are you following this story and how real do you think this is?

Oh, it's incredibly real. I think when it gets to media day and this dude isn't there and he's not on the roster— and I have a take. Usually, I'm pretty nuanced on this stuff, but I think this young man, Bill, needs to take the money. 5 years, $200 million. He just had an awkward playoff run, to be kind.

To say the least. Yeah.

But I think he needs to take the money. The game has changed. The salary cap system has changed. In an era, Bill, where we have this hard cap— and let's call it what it is, a hard cap— the 2nd April, Overpaying top talent is a cardinal sin in the league. And I think some of the league's agents aren't doing a great job of updating their players, that this is just a different era. 5 years, $200 million at age 22, that's a great deal. Maybe I'm an old grumpy dude at this point, but I think he's gotta take it.

No, but you're talking about it realistically in a league where I think 6 centers outta 30 teams are making $35 million or more. Right?

Yeah.

And outta those 6, probably 4 of the teams regret the contract. I would say.

And one more thing. And the, and, and the guys that are making that money, Embiid, Wembanyama, Joker, what have they done, Bill? They've completely reinvented the position.

Yeah.

They dribble, pass, and shoot the heck outta the ball. And Durant is kind of old school. That's why I love his game. He's like a, a big that you and I grew up with. Right. But I think he's gotta take this money and move on.

Well, you look at the Celtics, right? They have Mitchell Robinson and they have KATa, who this year are gonna be making less than $18 million combined. Next year, KATa's extension kicks in and him and Robinson will be making $28 million combined.

Yeah.

And I really liked Durn, and I thought he was a huge part. I've talked about this before. I thought he was a huge part of the identity of that Pistons team. But I don't think you, If, if those 2 guys together are making $28 and I have to pay Duren and Paul Reed, you know, almost $50 million, I just don't think that makes sense with the way the NBA is. I don't think the position is valuable enough and it's too easy to be able to patch unless it's Jokic, right? If, if it's somebody on that level, sure.

Right.

Because now it's a superstar thing. I think it's hard with the centers 'cause you can play some of 'em off the floor. you have situations like you had in the playoffs last year. His age is the right age, but it, it feels like there's bad blood, which is sometimes doesn't go away. We've— this has been a legacy of the NBA where sometimes the staring contest that like 30 years ago, Shawn Kemp in Seattle, all of a sudden they were trading him 'cause he was so mad that Jim McIlvaine was making more money than him. And then they had just made the Finals a year earlier and they— and all of a sudden he is getting shipped out. So it makes me think he's gonna get traded.

Yeah, I think that's more real in the last couple weeks. Again, since it got to media day and the roster and it's, there's, there is a staring contest. It does feel like a trade is on the horizon.

And the Thompson extension who got less than what Durant wanted, but yeah, they took care of the teammate and it was a better deal than the Durant deal. But that, I don't think that helped either.

How many, how many players are worth 5 years, $200 million in this economy? In this economy, and I, again, he came, he, he went from a 20-point-a-game scorer in the regular season, everybody had him All-NBA, myself included.

Me too.

On my ballot.

Yeah.

In the playoffs against Orlando and Cleveland, not exactly the greatest teams we saw in the playoffs, this dude dropped to 10 points a game, and his on/off splits were terrible. Detroit was a much better team when he was off the floor. And look, he should be— I think he should be happy to get this offer, Bill.

The problem for them is the sign-and-trades become problematic. 'Cause in my head I was like, oh, they should just do a deal with Washington and get Anthony Davis back and picks. And that's short-term, that helps them. Long-term, they don't have to worry about this contract being an albatross and they're building around Cade and Thompson and other stuff they've done. The problem is Davis is at $58 million, right?

Yeah.

And so if you're sign-and-trading him, I assume you're sign and trading him to a team that is gonna offer more than $5,200,000. So the only team dumb enough to do that is Sacramento, who of course is in the middle of this and is obviously wink wink to the agent like, oh, we'd go higher than that. Which is the old Daryl Morey, James Harden move with the OKC extension in 2012. Well, we'd do 5 for 70, 5 for 80.

Yeah.

He said they're only offering 4 for 55. Like, Yeah, we're, we're at 580 right now if you can, if you can figure it out. Sacramento has to be Sabonis, and I'm just not doing that if I'm Detroit. I'm just not.

He doesn't seem to fit. And I do think like the Cade part of it is huge, right? They have a franchise piece that almost any other team in the league would, would say. So they want to get somebody on that timeline. I think Ausar Thompson fits that too.

Yeah.

But That's where the AD thing is, is sort of a hiccup. And the other thing is like Trajan Langdon, within 5 weeks of getting to New Orleans, was part of the deal that— part of the front office that traded AD to the Lakers. Yeah. So I'm not sure he wants to get back into the AD business.

It's not gonna work.

Exactly.

'Cause that, that it floated around yesterday with AD, then it's just the salaries don't work. Detroit would have to put another guy in the trade and it just doesn't make sense.

I like it from Washington's perspective. That's a team that's young and, and, and could get— could fit— could find their— the center of the future to match their age profile. But yeah, from the Pistons' perspective, remember, there's number 1 seed in the Eastern Conference, Bill. They won 60 games last year.

Well, they're not winning that this year.

Super awkward. I was gonna ask you if you could remember, you said Shawn Kemp, but it's like, I couldn't— I haven't seen something go this sideways this fast with a young All-NBA player like this. for a rising team in a long time.

Yeah. Usually it's, it's like a Vince Carter type of situation.

Yeah.

Where somebody's unhappy or T-Mac in Orlando. This happened a lot in the 2000s, but the guys already had the money at that point. This almost feels like the disrespect is such a huge piece of this. I look at them like, I don't think, I didn't think they had any chance of winning 60. I don't really like what they did this this offseason, right? Even, even like, I look at the lack of— they basically have one shot creator, right?

Yeah.

Tobias, who is now on San Antonio, who is always— everyone's glass half empty on him all the time. But Tobias, at least they could go to him and he could hit a shot, which especially in the playoffs, like when, when either Cade was out or Cade was struggling, like at least you had somewhere else to go. I don't know where they go now.

Yeah. And, and remember the, the bread and butter action was this Cade-Durant pick and roll.

Right.

It was one of the most spammed actions in the entire league last season. And you look at the most common pick and roll combinations, it's very, very close to the top, if not the top.

I don't remember.

But so even from Cade's perspective, like, this is very risky from the team, from the perspective of the Detroit Pistons. Like, that's his running mate. That is Cade's number one bread and butter action too. And so if this thing really goes sideways, Cade's gonna have to reinvent how he plays. And you mentioned the departure of Harris. You're gonna have a, a completely new look offense in Detroit.

And Stewart's gone, which, yeah, it seems like there was a lot of stuff behind the scenes, but I always liked Stewart. I thought he had a weird year last year and the fight definitely mixed it up in the wrong way. But they lost Harris and Stewart and LeVert, who I've never been a fan of.

Yeah.

Replace those guys with John Collins, Isaiah Joe, and Okorie. Corey's a rookie. Like, you're asking a lot. Isaiah Joe, I think we all like as a shooter, but never really has played significant minutes on a really good team ever. And then, I don't know, I watched Collins last year, some Clipper games. He's fine.

Yeah.

I, I, I personally think would rather have, would rather have Tobias. I know that like John Collins is an advanced stat people, there's a lot of, positive things behind it, but I don't know. Like, and they—

I don't like it.

I don't like what they did. So the, what the other trade, 'cause I was like, obviously Milwaukee just has too many guys and God only knows what they're trying to do, but there's some sort of framework of like Herro and Ware, basically some of the guys they got in the Giannis trade. And could they throw other stuff in? There's only one trade that I really like, and I don't know if you were focused on this one. But Atlanta.

Yeah, that's the one I was hoping you'd say. Tell me more.

I just think Okonkwo and Daniels for, for Durham makes a shitload of sense to me for everybody involved, especially when they got the Lou Dort.

Yep.

Adding him, he can just basically go in the Daniels spot as another lockdown defender for them. And now you're upgrading at center. And then if I'm Detroit, I get outta this, I've split up the contracts. Daniels is at 25 a year, which is probably fair. It's a little, it's a little high considering that he doesn't seem to be growing offensively at all. But that, that was the only one that made sense to me.

And if you look at the pattern in Atlanta over the last couple years, there's a couple of sort of things they're obviously targeting, which is size and strength and athleticism, which Jalen Duren, more than almost any other player in the NBA, checks those boxes, especially at his position, just one of the more physically imposing, dominant bigs.

Right.

In the league. And I think if that's what Quinn Snyder's going for in his lineup, it fills a big need there. And remember, this is a team that filled— finished last season before the playoffs about as hot as anybody in the league, and then was the only team in the East, or in the West for that matter, to take 2 games from the Knicks in the playoffs. So, you know, Atlanta is the team to watch in my opinion. Um, they've been active.

Do you like that crunch time 5? If it's Duran, Jalen Johnson, McCollum, Lou Dort, and Alexander Walker, and that's all I'm rolling with, with 6 minutes left in a huge playoff game, I kind of like it.

I kind of like it. I still think CJ is running on borrowed time a little bit. They drafted a point guard.

Well, they have his replacement ready to roll. Yeah. Yeah.

And so if that kid comes along And I, I think they proved it to me at the end of last season and in the playoffs. I don't know if I love it like I like the Knicks 5 or like when your team was really humming, that 5-man group.

Yeah.

But I think it's an upgrade for the, for the Atlanta Hawks in the front court.

Well, we'll see what happens. I do not think a center should make $40 million a year up in this current salary cap economy unless it's Jokic or Wemby. But what do I know? Uh, they also announced some rule changes that they're gonna be looking at.

Um, points of education. Now they're calling points of education.

Are we calling this the Jaylen Brown? Who are we naming that one after? It's basically, they're saying you can't use the stiff arm as you're driving. LeBron does it too. I mean, a bunch of people does, do, do this, but I'll be interested to see how long they stick to this one calling it.

I've heard trainers call it the paddle, the off arm, like, and they're training it now. Paddle. They're training it.

Yeah.

The paddle. Like you're dribbling with your right hand and you can't use your hand as much, but you can sort of maneuver your off arm like the Heisman Trophy a little bit, as long as you don't fully stiff arm. But yeah, that came out today, and I, I— count me among the people that are sort of happy that they announced this, a little bit cynical that they're going to enforce it, Bill. We've seen these kinds of points of emphasis, now called points of education, for years.

Yeah.

Sometimes they last a week, sometimes they last a month, sometimes they actually last. So I, as an old guy, Hand checks were part of the game. Now it feels like the offensive players in this attacking guard era, SGA, Jaylen Brown, Luka Dončić, are weaponizing that off arm and almost committing like reach-in fouls as an offensive player.

Right.

And I would love to see it go away. You don't see it in college basketball. You don't see it in women's basketball. You don't see it in European basketball. It's an NBA-specific issue that I think has arisen. in the last 10 years, uh, that has gotten outta hand, no pun intended, in, in, in the 2020s. And I associate with SGA. I'll go ahead and say it.

Okay. I still think Jalen, but it's 'cause I watched the most Celtic game. But you're right, SGA probably perfected it. I wonder who—

Well, Jalen was the example they used.

LeBron was sneaky good at it though, 'cause he could have—

You'd be a fool not to.

By the way, I'm not throwing shade.

If you can get away with that, you should do it. And I'm not insulting SGI. If you can get away with that, it's a brilliant play. I mean, but it's kind of the thing, if you were playing pickup basketball and you started doing this to people, they'd be like, dude, what are you doing? And it's just commonplace in the NBA.

It's funny in FIBA, that does not work in FIBA, and they call it and they get mad when you do it, and then they have to adjust. The other one I'm more excited about is the illegal screening. I thought the screening stuff was outta control the last 2 years and, and really more noticeable in person than anything. Where you could really see guys were just never set anymore. And it was becoming, A, harder to guard everybody 30 feet from the hoop. But then B, I, I think real potential for injury and knees knocking and all kinds of bad things. So I see them actually sticking with this.

I blame Steve Kerr and Draymond Green and David Lee and Andrew Bogut. And I say that lovingly.

The founding fathers.

The moving screen warriors. Uh, but I think they deserve credit. And I would always say to people in the 2010s, if you're not getting called for 1 or 2 of these violations—

Yeah.

Every game, you're not setting dirty enough screens. And they really put the onus on the officials. And to this point in 2026, Bill, I think it is fair to say that screens are dirtier than ever and breaking rules at a higher rate. They just haven't been enforced. And in the examples in the videos they show have a lot of guys pushing guys away, moving into the contact, and disrupting what they're calling freedom of movement on the defender trying to get around a screen. So like you, I think it's an ambitious one. I'm glad they're focusing on it. But my question back to you is, do you trust that they'll follow through on both of these going into the new season?

I think they'll follow through on the illegal screens. And I think they'll see how it goes with the stiff arms.

Right.

Because on defense, they're also doing stuff, right? So I, I don't know. It'll be a push and pull. The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel. Postseason baseball is here. FanDuel has something pretty nice for the Wild Card Series. With FanDuel's early win, you don't have to wait around to see how a game ends. If your money line, that the one you picked goes up by 2, 2 runs at any point, you win instantly. How about that? That's it. Up 2, you win. FanDuel's doing it every day of the Wild Card Series. I would stay away from Red Sox-Yankees with this because I think every game is gonna be like 1-0, 2-1, uh, 3-2, somewhere in that. I think the Houston-White Sox series is a good one for this, uh, 'cause I think there's gonna be, I know it's a best of 3, but there'll be a game where Houston Scores like 9 runs. So I would think about that anyway. Figure out who you like, make your moneyline pick. If they get that 2-run lead, you've got yourself an early win. Download the FanDuel app to get started. FanDuel, your home for home runs.

21+ select states or 18+ DC or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. I have, I wrote down, I was on a 6-hour flight today. I wrote down, I went through painstakingly and wrote down a bunch of quotes from media day, and we're gonna play a little game called, do you believe this? LeBron is the first one. He said, I didn't come here to lose in the second round.

Oof.

Felt like a slight dig at Embiid, like just a little. Embiid's never gotten outta the second round. Very pointed that it was the second round. Here's what I thought was interesting about this. Why didn't he say, I didn't come here to lose in the conference finals? Because the way this is phrased, I didn't come here to lose in the second round. So the conference finals, if he loses, that's okay. I just thought the second round thing was weird. Wouldn't he say, I didn't come here to not make the finals or something like that? But this second round I thought was odd.

Yeah. It was even weirder 'cause he said, I didn't leave my family behind, or something along those lines. Like, he was, it was very emotional. But I, yeah, I think he really thinks this is one of the best teams in the East, and I think it gives him the best shot.

Yeah.

Of winning. And, and ultimately, I think if we asked him, Bill, about why he chose Philadelphia, he thinks it's a superior place to win basketball games than Cleveland, which I think was the other big choice for him. I know he thinks very highly of Tyrese Maxey, Jaylen Brown.

Yeah.

Are personal friends of his. So I think he thinks this is a great team, and I, I don't read much more into it than that.

I don't think the Cleveland thing worked out 'cause they couldn't get rid of Harden. The Lakers didn't want him. San Antonio and OKC didn't want him. And the Knicks won the title, and Philly turned out 'cause of the Jaylen Brown thing.

I'll be—

I, I would love to know if Jaylen Brown, if that hadn't happened, would he have gone there?

But we'll never know.

Next one. Draymond Green on LeBron said he passed on the Warriors. He couldn't get over the past, quote, which is, I battled these guys over and over again. What is that gonna look like for me if I sign there? What type of beating will I get if I go there? That's why Draymond thought LeBron didn't go to the Warriors. So on a do you believe, I actually believe this. I think this was the reason he didn't go to the Warriors.

Yeah. I think that, and I think it stacks with the previous point. I don't think he thinks the Warriors are going anywhere. And, you know, Jimmy Butler is banged up. Stephen Curry, is he 37 or 38?

Whatever.

We saw the Porzingis news this week. You know, and this is a Western Conference that has 2 juggernauts sitting at the top.

That you're not passing.

And Nikola Jokic sitting there in 3rd or 4th. Anthony Edwards.

It's just a harder path.

As much as the East has improved, I still think he just didn't think the Golden State Warriors were gonna make a lot of noise come April and May.

It was notable— noticeable that Embiid is in much, much, much better shape too. I don't know if LeBron, how much he had to do with that, but look, Embiid looks like the guy from 8 years ago.

When he's good, as you guys saw, like the Boston Celtics fans know exactly what we're talking about. If he can put it together, he is still one of the top 5 players in the league. Like if he looks good, he looks incredible. And you know, he can't sustain it. So we'll see. I, I've, I've yet to see it. And you make this point better than anybody. How many games does he play every year?

Yeah.

You know, his body breaks down, he has bad luck, but—

Being skinnier will help him not get injured is my expert take. Do you, how about this? Just emulate what Tim Duncan did.

Well, I, let's do it. And I love what you said earlier this week. Just play once a week. Like, I don't know if they're gonna be able to get away with that sparse. But yeah, like with the depth they have with LeBron James, Jaylen Brown, Tyrese Maxey, Vijay Edgecombe, he can sit out back-to-backs. Yeah. They can still win games against decent teams if they program Joel Embiid's usage and load management. And I think that we could see the LeBron effect for Embiid actually being sustainability for that dude.

Next one is a tweet from John Krasinski, who does an excellent job covering the Timberwolves.

Yeah, he does.

Tim Connelly says he's, quote, super happy in Minnesota. He's entering the last year of his deal, but notes he's had opportunities to move and has stayed. Says he's focused on winning here. Do you believe him?

Uh, I think he wants to see what happens with this crazy LaMelo risk that he took. And I, for one, am very cynical. I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't think it's gonna work, uh, if for no other reason that LaMelo Ball's never gonna be healthy to play 82 games. I think it's the most sort of under— reported thing about LaMelo is his own injury history, his ability to stay upright. And again, in the context of a brutal Western Conference, you can't have any kind of mess-ups. Tim Connelly deserves a lot of credit for building a team, 2 teams in the Western Conference that have been very good over the last decade. So I could see him going elsewhere if this thing falls apart.

I didn't believe that tweet. He said he's had opportunities to move and has stayed. You stayed 'cause you were under contract and you couldn't move to the other opportunities. So I just don't believe it. And I think the LaMelo Ball trade was, was a Hail Mary to some degree where you're just basically trying to game the variance of a ton of 3-pointers and take some pressure off Ant.

Right.

And you're gonna cross your fingers and hope it works. I said it at the time, I thought it was an overreaction. I thought the reason that they didn't succeed like the way we, we maybe thought they would was 'cause they had a ton of injuries at the wrong time. Yeah.

Ant-Man was on one leg. Like, yeah, let's not forget it.

Yeah. And the Randle thing got weird 'cause they were trying to desperately trade everybody in February for Durant and whatever else. Next one, Tyronn Lue. Quote, I wouldn't want to be at any other place. This is my first, I'm a 0 out of 10. I don't believe this. There's no way you wouldn't want to be at another place. I'm gonna guess you'd be at 20 other places.

He hasn't been this happy since he was looking up at Allen Iverson's crotch when he was getting stepped over in 2001. That is the biggest baloney sandwich I think we heard at media day. And that's saying something, Bill. Like, this is such a bad situation. And now Brandon Ingram appears to have some really bad injuries.

Appears he has a partially torn Achilles. So there's— this is the— the Clipper fans I know are like, so they— is this why they got more than maybe it seems like they should have for Kawhi because training for a guy who was injured and has a partially— first of all, how do you have a partially torn Achilles?

Right. Yeah, I think it's like a small tear, but is that something that comes out in the physical that could have slowed down the trade? Is that what you're getting at? I don't know.

Or do you— the Raptors didn't know?

Yeah, I, I, I do.

They didn't know he had this injury. They just found— figured it out. He was— said at the end of the year he was hurt last year.

Yeah. Anyway, I mean that, but yeah, so I think I'd put Ty Lue with Tim Connelly, right? These are 2 really high-caliber— Ty Lue's a great coach. I'm not throwing any shade at him. And Tim Connelly too. Like, these are very marketable player or people in, in the NBA if they choose to go somewhere else.

I think they both will. Jason Tatum, quote, they're asking about what it's like to have your own team. It's not a simple thing like, this is my team. Now, it's not just saying it's my team, and I'm not gonna say that. I've got 14 other teammates I'm gonna lean on, and we all need each other. So this is gonna be his tactic all year being like, this is not the Jason Tatum show. This is not my team.

I haven't—

I have a little newsflash for Jason. This is your team. They built the whole thing around you and they traded Jaylen Brown to make it your team. So whether you don't wanna admit it or not, this is your team.

Well, as one, one of the joys of my summer, Bill, was to be a guest, I would say in the third chair of the Colonoscopy Pod.

Yeah.

And it was, it was just electric to be a part of that, that, that BS history. I, I'd turn it back to you. I know your fans wanna hear you riff more.

Yeah.

'Cause I know you've come around on Paul George.

Yeah.

What are your thoughts on Jayson Tatum finally being the alpha dog? I mean, I know you've talked yourself into this trade, but can he be an effective leader?

Well, I had no choice but to talk myself into the trade because they made it. I do understand why they did it. Um, and the Paul George, I don't know, he's kind of sucking me in with his quotes. This place is great. I wish I had gotten here sooner. I was like, okay, Paul George. Twist my arm. I understand why they did it. And I, I, we didn't have this information during the infamous colonoscopy pod, which I'm sure for you, the colonoscopy pod and the Ohio State game, being in person for those, probably your 2 highlights of 2026.

Yeah, definitely.

We didn't have this information, but Brad Stevens basically admitting we took that group as far as it could go and we had to do something. And that's, he said it in so many words in multiple interviews that I did not feel like this was sustainable anymore. And that's why they did it. And he had less value than they thought.

And I agree. I think the second apron, which we brought up earlier in the context of Jalen Duren, I think is a huge part of this. And Brad referenced it. The more I've thought about it, and he said it exactly something to the effect of, we can't have this much usage tied up in this much of our cap tied up in 2 guys. And I think that's fair in, in a league though, where depth is so important that you can't achieve depth if you have a Jalen-sized contract and a Jayson-sized contract stacked on each other. That's fair.

Yeah. You're looking at it.

That does—

oh, go ahead.

Yeah. That, it, it doesn't explain bringing in Paul George, who has basically the same amount of money due to him, but for 1 or 2 less years.

Right. That's why I don't know if it was a, I mean, it was a salary trade for that 3rd year. And he's an expiring next year. Yeah. So you're looking at this year only, plus he's an expiring. I think they looked at it and you add up the stats of those 2 guys and how much they'd have to both have the ball, what that comes at the expense of with the rest of the team. And they thought you move Paul George and Hugo and Shireman, you know, give them a lot of those minutes and you spread the rest of the stuff out. And Tatum's gonna do a lot of the usage stuff that Jayson did last year. And that this was the only way we were gonna have a happy situation, I think, is where they landed. I don't know if they're wrong.

Yep. And Paul George, one of the most underrated parts of his games is he is a knockdown catch-and-shoot player. He can play off the ball really well, and he's content doing so.

Switches on D. Yeah, he doesn't—

Smartest defender on the court. Maybe have lost a little step in his mid-30s, but even the Sixers were raving about this dude's defensive leadership and his ability to perform on that side of the court. So you can talk yourself into it. I'm happy. to sort of endorse that.

This is from anonymous from media day. Ben Simmons is cringe. Cringe. He's lucky he's fine. Zach LaVine is cute, but his personality fucking annoys me. It just seems like he's a prick. Hot mics, baby.

Oh man. Only the Kings.

If we did a draft of like, what team will this happen to? What team will have a hot mic controversy? The Kings somehow, even though there's 30 teams having a media day, you just would've assumed it was the Kings.

Electric group text moment that going around. And yeah, like, Zach Levine got, I think, thrown under the bus a little bit there by one of the media members who's anonymous. But I feel bad for anonymous Bill Simmons. I do not.

Oh, this is a good zag.

If the craziest shit I said were caught on a hot mic, it would be a terrible day in my career. We all say stupid things. Some of us get caught. And I feel bad for Anonymous. Shout out to Anonymous. As far as I'm concerned, you're forgiven.

Shout out to Andy Anonymous. JJ Redick, quote, there's a reason we wanted a lot of these new guys on our team. They offer something different, and we feel like the pieces really fit. Hmm. I'm gonna— I'm like a 3 out of 10 on that one.

Yeah, they sent a lot of resources to get Walker Kessler, another person with severe injury issues.

A lot.

Who's unproven.

They have a lot on offense, and now they are doing this with Matisse Thybulle. Can you please be our shutdown defender? Because if you're not, we're in a lot of trouble this year.

I think they're in a lot of trouble anyway at the point of attack. And we've talked about this on the show before, but if you look at the Western Conference guards, who you're playing on a nightly basis, the idea idea that Austin Reaves and Luka are both on the court. Well, you're talking about Stephen Curry or Anthony Edwards or Stephon Castle or Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. They're going to be able to pick on something there, uh, and that remains a, like, a bright red flag for the Lakers.

Ja Morant on starting, quote, I think winning is the most important thing for me. I'm gonna say he wants to start.

I think he wants to start. And yeah, I think he probably should start to start the season. I mean, he has a very high ceiling as a player, and there is a world— and you and I have been around this league a long, long enough time for a redemption arc here where this guy gets his shit together and starts being an All-Star, an All-NBA player, and Chris Vernon is losing his mind in Memphis. Yeah. But yeah, like, I think Portland, who showed some signs last year and has an awkward offseason story here where with Tiago Splitter leaving, the coach getting a 1-year deal from Minnesota. Yeah. To come over. It's just an awkward situation, but it could all click. We'll see.

We got a 1-year deal, but they, they gave him a food card apparently for like a $300 limit.

Free chicken tenders on game days.

$300 limit. He can take himself out to lunch every couple weeks. Oh man, this might be my favorite. John Horst, Bucks GM, on extending Gary Trent Jr. He's an elite shooter. I think one of 5 or 6 players to shoot and make the amount of 3s he has as a reserve over the last couple years. Only 27 years old. Was big for us in playoff moments. So there's a big belief in Gary for what we think matters, and that's elite shooting in the NBA. That's hard to find. John Horst.

Wow.

I'm gonna give this a 0 out of 10. Do you believe? Yeah, maybe a -1.

That is a CYA statement, I think would be the technical term. But yeah, some murky stuff at best in Milwaukee with the Gary Trent Jr. stuff. And if you look at the, if you look at the game the way I do, Gary Trent Jr. was a, that's the player he was describing 3 years ago at 24. I, I co-sign it, but it has been very bad the last 2 years. And in fact, his efficiency as a catch-and-shoot player When Giannis is on the court and those opportunities aren't gonna come anymore, was very disappointing over the last 2 years. So kind of a, I'll just say it was a surprising contract that Gary Trent Jr. got.

Not surprising if you knew they agreed to it a year ago. 36% shooting 3s last year for Gary. I'm pretty sure there's some guys that did better than that. John Horst is like, please, by the way, please don't suspend me for a year, please.

Well, here's my Bill Simmons question. I was talking to some students about this earlier. Are we— is the new kind of cheating— like, remember we went through the doping phase with Lance Armstrong and all the baseball players? It feels like we're in a new era of cheating, Bill, where we're just talking about financial crimes on the show all the time. And it came through like Manchester City today, just got absolutely leveled. Oh my God. So now we're talking more and more about freaking financial crimes, thanks to Pablo Torre, Manchester City, this cap circumvention story in Milwaukee. I'm already sick of it, but I feel like we're just warming up.

Yeah, but the thing is, everybody was doing this forever. The, the reason Joe Smith got caught was 'cause they found a contract that they all fucking agreed to and signed that— well, because the, because of the agent.

Yeah. The agents, like the, the agency he was represented by dissolved and they had discovery and that was the only reason they found that. Yeah, um, I'm not naive, but I'm just also like, don't wanna be doing podcast appearances where I'm talking about like the Securities and Exchange Commission and committees looking at financial fraud for the next 20 years.

To me, the joke's been made by everybody, but the punishment should be you have to pay Gary Trent 4 years, $64 million. Like, we've decided that's what you gotta do. Darius Garland, quote, the vibe is immaculate right now. That was his media day quote. I'm a 1 outta 10 on that one.

Yeah, that's, I'll go 0 outta 10. 'Cause this is the, on the heels of the Ingram news.

What is immaculate about the vibe? They've lost their owner, they lost their GM.

Yeah.

They traded for a guy who now has a partially torn Achilles. Their over-under in Vegas is 28.5 wins. And a big chunk of their fans are really disappointed slash despise everything that happened and can't believe they have to watch this team all season.

Yeah, I think, yeah, it's well said. And did you get an update on your season tickets? Are you able to get out of those? Everybody wants to know.

Not an update. And by the way, I have not heard anything for 2 weeks. And now I'm gonna have to, now I'm gonna have to pull some stuff.

I don't know what that means, but I don't think the vibes are immaculate.

The thing is, if they're not gonna take my tickets, then that means I will go to the games. I will just say that. Joe Dumars, quote, this is the Astro Dumars, why he didn't do a lot of moves this summer. I dunno if you noticed, but the Pelicans weren't good last year and then just brought everybody back. You can't be reckless with your aggression. I am not gonna do a deal just to do a deal so we could say, yeah, we did a deal. And it's not even something you really like. If it's not really that good for us, why do it? I'm like a 9 outta 10 on this. I think he actually believes this.

Right.

He's like, I'm not just gonna do a deal to do a deal. But the alternative is, well, you're bringing the same team back that sucked last year. You realize that, right? And the pieces don't match and you just gave Saddiq Bey $55 million for reasons that remain unclear when you have a bunch of— and then you also paid Ben Mathurin. What are you doing?

And he has very attractive trade pieces, to your point. We've talked about Trey Murphy for what, 2 years, 3 years in this context?

Herb Jones for $14 million a year or something.

Yeah, so I think a lot of us are bewildered at the state of the Pelicans, and I think we look at a team that has some talent, but clearly isn't going to make a lot of noise in the Western Conference. So it's almost a what do you have to lose situation here? Like what, what is Joe Dumars' like truth serum? What is the ceiling of this basketball team in his head, Bill? Do you, do you think Joe Dumars believes the New Orleans Pelicans could be a play-in team? Do you think he thinks they could be a 4 seed? Like what is driving his reticence to make some of these moves?

You probably talk like, If we were running the Pelicans, you'd probably talk yourself into Zion like it's Stockholm syndrome at some point. You do a lot of, if only, if we can just get Zion going. And, oh, Zion, he said that juicy— this quote he said. And you talk yourself in the reality of, if this guy has his head on straight, he could be a top 25 guy in the league. So we got that. We haven't seen it and he's been in the league since 2019. I don't think it's gonna happen. Yeah, I'm with you on that one. And I don't think he has the same athleticism that he had when he came in the league. So we'll see. Aaron Gordon, quote, when we have all our guys, we're still the best in the league. I admire that he said this and I admire his conviction, but even when they have all their guys, they're not the best in the league. So I'm gonna have to, I admire that he, would say this publicly, but I don't— deep down he can't believe this, right?

Can I respond with a stat?

Yeah.

So for the first time in NBA history, players 30 and over played less than 20% of minutes last year. It's something I've been thinking about. You actually got me onto looking at calf strains and hamstrings, which I think is very relevant to Aaron. I think every basketball nerd loves Aaron Gordon. Everybody roots for him to be healthy, but the combination of aging bodies and the way we're playing this game and how frequently the league is insisting on making these guys play— I agree with him. If everybody's healthy, that's a very hard team to beat. But you've been saying it for years. I've been coming around to it. It's like, I just don't— I just don't believe that this is gonna happen. Like, that's— show it to me. And it's been how many playoffs in a row where He just can't stay upright, and it's a bummer.

And then Murray ran out of gas last year in the playoffs.

And he's had catastrophic leg injuries too. I just, I think once you're snakebit, it's really hard in this grueling NBA schedule to sort of get back into your, your full capabilities, especially when you're on the wrong side of 30 like Aaron. But that said, I agree with what he said. If they have a perfect health team and you're playing one game to win a championship.

Yeah.

I might take the Denver Nuggets. That's a hell of a team. The problem is we play 100 of these things by the time we give out the, the, the, the title.

Right. Rui Hachimura on why he joined the Clippers. Quote, one thing everyone says about the Clippers is how well they take care of players. Technically true. I think I'm very glad I attended. I don't think he's lying. He also— this is a Law Murray tweet— Rui mentioned that he is looking forward to reuniting with former Washington Wizards teammate Bradley Beal. All right, Rui, you pushed your luck with that one.

Yeah, that's a, that's a lot of a reunion thing, but maybe it's true. Bradley seems like a great guy.

Wasn't Rui miserable in Washington? And then when the Lakers traded for him, they only had to give up a 2nd-round pick because nobody knew if he was any good or not.

And didn't he disappear for an extended period of time?

The Wizards didn't—

To Japan?

Yeah, and the Wizards didn't seem to have any fun during that stretch he was on the team. Um, oh, speaking of Zion, quote, I'm not where I want to be. I'm just not where I need to be, and I'm not where I want to be. We agree. Rudy Gobert, quote, the vibes are great. Sometimes I have to turn off the group chat because it's buzzing too much.

Hmm.

I think I believe that.

Yeah, that's an old guy.

Well, they went to Paris and he showed them around. I do think the vibes are good. And I think the Randle thing was bad last year. I think when he was really mad when they— he felt really betrayed when they tried to trade him and his name was in all the rumors. And I think from the moment that trade deadline happened, that team had a weird energy to it.

Counterpoint.

Yep.

Who did they also send away to get LaMelo?

Yeah, their guy Naz Reid. Yeah.

Yeah. Fan favorite culture driver.

Yeah.

I'm really worried about the absence of Naz Reid in that group, in that organization too. And I know a lot of Wolves fans and, and people around that team are too. So it's not just you got rid of Randle and you have this party vibe, you lost Naz Reid, who is what, the 3rd most popular Timberwolf player of all time.

Bill, my note to the T-Wolves fans is as follows, because I think we all wanna watch this team and we're all excited about it. Just take the regular season carefully. You're gonna have a couple nights in during the season when you score 152 points and you make 28 threes.

Mm-hmm.

And it looks awesome. And you're definitely gonna have a TNT night. Oh, they don't have TNT anymore. An Amazon night, a Peacock night where you just light somebody up who's really good. And the potential of the, the run and gun and the, the threes, and it's just gonna look great.

Yeah.

I just want to see, can LaMelo play 2,000 minutes?

No.

But is that, is that a lot to ask? 2,000 minutes?

It is for a guy.

And when you talk to people around Charlotte, they're like, wait, 2,200 minutes would be a miracle.

Yeah. So I think that's why they— Charlotte, one of the reasons they got off of him. It's not just the sort of—

I think it was the reason they got off of him. They didn't, they didn't feel like he could hold up.

I think that's right. And so same thing with Aaron Gordon. I don't like to say this, but the older I get and the more I analyze this league, like these dudes are, some of 'em are very fragile and you have to sort of factor that into your predictions and your analyses.

Luka Dončić said on Walker Kessler, I really wanted him. I do believe that's true. He also said on, on LeBron, It was kind of sad. Playing with LeBron was amazing. There's a lot of things I learned from him, and we all know who LeBron James is. We spent time together. It was amazing. I think that whole team was ready for LeBron to go. If you read between the lines of the media day thing, I don't think he was really happy for most of the season. And I think they were just kind of stuck with each other, and then they had to all jockey to pretend whatever. I think him, Reaves, JJ, they're all fired up for the post-LeBron era was my take. Yeah.

And the Mark Walter stuff. And they've had all sorts of craziness in that organization over the last few— I mean, getting Luka in the first place at a team where he— that wasn't really built for him was a whole sort of just big bombshell move. And then, yeah, the LeBron-Luka thing was never meant to work out. But I agree with that. I think I told Zach, like, I think Luka has a ton of promise. pressure on him now because this is 27-year-old Luka Dončić. You, I, Zach Mahoney, everybody thinks this guy— thinks the world of him, but he's 27. And you know better than anybody as a sports guy, like 27, 28, 29, those are the times.

Those are the years.

Those are the years. And now you're in LA, it's your team. What are you gonna do? That's a lot of pressure for Luka Dončić.

Luka, 36 points a game on FanDuel, 5-to-1.

Damn. Nobody's done that.

Only a couple guys that— Harden did it. I think Harden was the last one.

Did he get to 36?

I thought he got to 36. Yeah. 34 was like +150. Speaking of Luka, his teammate Austin Reaves talked about this year's team and said, we'll do different things we weren't capable of doing last year. We'll be able to play more free-flowing basketball. It's not going to have to be pick and roll every single possession. Huh.

Man, did they get a new coach? No, still JJ Redick.

Yeah, I wonder what's different. Um, Nikola Jokic quote.

One more thing on the Lakers. I just want to go on the record here in September before we get to the Jokic quote. The problem for Austin Reaves, it's not at the offensive end, buddy. It's on the other side of the court.

Nikola Jokic, I'm going to sign next year if they want me. That was his future with Denver.

I believe that.

I don't think he wants to go anywhere else.

I thought that was the biggest quote outta Media Day, Bill, 'cause people have been speculating. Yeah, he is a private guy. Everybody loves Nikola Jokic. Obviously Denver wants him to stay there forever. But there was real smoke starting and the, the gossip machine starting, and he's not somebody who just says anything. So there's no guarantees there. But knowing what we know about Nikola Jokic, I feel like that was the biggest news of Media Day and great news for Nuggets fans.

I 100% agree with you. The number 2 biggest news was Cade Cunningham said about Jalen Duren, that's my brother. Made me think of Stephen A. Smith and CR doing the Stephen A. Smith impersonation. That's my brother. Kawhi, Said he learned last year with the Clippers that, quote, he needs pressure and needs a winning situation.

Yeah, I think that's true. Kawhi, I mean, had the most interesting media day, I think, from the awkwardness. And he sort of was happy and in a vibe that I don't really associate with Kawhi, like grinning ear to ear, almost like Magic Johnson grin on his face. I was like, what is going on?

It's ridiculous. I don't know where it came from, and nobody can figure it out.

But I'll tell you this, dude, I think Toronto won 46 games last year. I think they're one of the best defenses in the league. They have a great coach. If Kawhi has a chip on his shoulder, and I know for a fact that dude loves basketball and he does want the bullshit to leave and he just wants to play basketball.

Yeah.

And if this move to Toronto really clicks and this dude can play 60 games, the Toronto Raptors are a very interesting team to watch in the Eastern Conference. So, I thought his media day was fine. It's just weird, right?

I'm not doing over-unders with Zach and House for 2 more weeks, but Toronto really jumped out to me. I thought it was too low. It was like 46, 46 or 47. It was somewhere in there. But to me, that's a 50-win team.

Yeah.

They just have too much length and too much defense. I don't know if it's gonna translate to, you know, winning 3 straight playoff rounds or anything, but they're gonna be an absolute bitch to play with all those dudes. That's a team on your calendar. You're like, oh no.

You and Mahoney had a great Nerd King Justin Herbert segment, and I texted you guys after the podcast last week, and I was like, we definitely need a Nerd King, um, for the NBA. And I think for me, I said it's Chet Holmgren, uh, but I also think Kawhi Leonard has a sneaky case here too, because the advanced stuff for Kawhi—

Yeah.

Is so insanely high. The same exact numbers that made Jaylen Brown look so bad in the, uh, in that discourse. If you look at Kawhi and things like estimated plus-minus, he's number 3 in the league, number 4 in the league. The nerdy stuff still points to this guy being one of the most impactful players in the whole league when it comes to winning basketball games. Obviously, he has to stay healthy, but when he is out there, he could be the best player in the Eastern Conference. Like, I know what that sounds like, but he is that good at, at this phase of his career.

Well, his old team, the Clippers, the acting GM, whatever he is, Trent Redden, he said, yeah, talked about Clipper fans. We hope to fulfill our promises to them and build their trust. Good luck. Ben Simmons, uh, had, had a really, like, got passionate about it. He said, quote, all these people talk about, I don't love the game. That's bullshit. I love this game. I know he's had some physical stuff, but the, the way he handled himself the year after the Atlanta series with the Sixers, I think speaks for itself. He should be—

Well, let's do this. Who loves the game? Like, I, I know when I think of guys, guys who just want to play no matter what, right?

Like guys who want to hoop. I feel like Durant loves the game.

Durant is number one.

Yeah. There's gonna be footage of Durant just playing in some parking lot pickup game when he's like 48. Shoot. Yeah, there's certain guys you love, you know, they love hooping. Yeah.

And I think, I think LeBron loves to hoop.

No question.

I don't think Ben Simmons likes to hoop.

I said it's a wrap on him until he proves everybody wrong who's coached or played with him. He doesn't like basketball that much. Bradley Beal on taking number 3.

Oh.

Quote, it's no disrespect to Chris, Paul. Chris and I are amazing friends. I asked the team if number 3 is available. They talked about it. They came back and said, we'll do it.

Have you talked about this on the show before?

If you're giving it up, you're not giving it up to Bradley Beal, is my take.

You're not giving it up. I mean, you're a Clippers season ticket holder. Who are the 2 or 3 greatest Clippers of all time?

He's one of them, but you know.

And what do we do with those numbers? This is not like—

He played there for 6 years, never made a Finals, had a lot of disappointing things. I can see both sides. I personally think his numbers should be retired, but what do I know? They don't have a retired number. They haven't retired a single number. I think Bob McAdoo, I would retire Bob McAdoo. I'd retire Chris Paul. I'd retire Blake Griffin. I would not retire Kawhi or Paul George.

Yeah. On the list of things the Clippers fucked up this year, like the Chris Paul relationship is somewhere in the middle of that long list.

Yeah.

And that, I for one, yeah, I mean, I, I think 6 years in this, in an organization that's starved for any kind of legacy like that, count me on the side of like, what are you doing giving that to Brad Beal? Like, that doesn't make any sense to me. I'm sorry.

Last one. Michael Porter Jr., quote, my goal is to definitely be the best off-the-ball player in the NBA. Thought that was the weirdest thing I heard at media day. I don't even know how he decided that was his goal. He realizes he's playing with Agor Demin and Mikal Brown and like, what does he think's gonna happen next year? Julius Randle? Does he realize what's gonna happen with Julius Randle?

He's another one like Paul George that I think the casual fan doesn't realize just how fucking good this dude is at catch-and-shoot Yeah. And he is off the ball, and that's why he was so great next to Jamal Murray and Nikola Jokic. But you're exactly right. I mean, Julius Randle's gonna be doing a lot of this. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But he's gonna have to be on ball too in that environment in Brooklyn, 'cause there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of options in that offense.

Brooklyn.

Okay. Kurt Goldsberry, anything else before we go?

No, that's it. I think that, uh, we should talk briefly about the Vegas thing, uh, because that came out.

Oh yeah, let's do that. Yeah, so they said between 12 and 13, which means 12. They also said the arena was involved, which is between 2 and 2.5. So the number is where everybody thought it was gonna be. It's gonna be 9.5. There's 3 groups. I, I learned nothing. They're gonna pick between the 3 groups. They staggered Seattle, hoping one of the 2 losers with the Vegas bid will then talk themselves into Seattle because the number's not nearly high enough. So yeah, and that's why I learned nothing today.

Yeah, well, we learned that they don't have the Seattle number, I think, which—

Not even close. We knew this for 2 months. They're not even close. So, so they're gonna go 31 teams, and, and I think staggered, I think, is how they're gonna go.

And, and Minnesota probably moves to the East.

Yeah, Minnesota moves to the East.

Maybe you have 16 East teams, 15 West teams for our Oh yeah, I don't know when they would do the move, right?

Because I guess, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.

But yeah, that's interesting. I know you've been following this Vegas thing for a long time. I remember when they first started talking about it, the number was like 5 or 6. So it just speaks to how quickly these valuations have changed. But yeah, the NBA obviously wants a new building there. For those who have been to the NBA Cup, the T-Mobile Arena's not— I don't get it.

To me, it's an insane number. And there has to be, there has to be, I'd never, I haven't studied the part of this where can you fill the arena for 350 days a year? And if you own the arena, is that just a crazy amount of revenue?

Right.

The Warriors did this when they built the Chase Center and it seemed crazy how much money they spent on it, but that thing's a cash cow for them. So they were obviously right. So maybe that's the feeling with Vegas too. It's not just the basketball team. It's you get all the other stuff too.

Yeah. And that's a city where they need that stuff. So yeah, it's a real estate play. I'm a little bearish on Vegas as a long-term sports city, but it's gonna be exciting. And I think the more interesting thing for me, Bill, is what will they end up doing with the expansion draft? As soon as next summer, we could see players being peeled off of the other 30 teams' rosters to go populate this new team, which, you know, is gonna be really fascinating for us to go through.

So if it's 9.5 just for Vegas divided by 30, that's basically like a $315 million check to every single owner. Matt Ishby's like, can you wire it to me? Any chance I can get that this week? Mark Walters is like, can I have that now? I'll drive to the office.

Yeah, it's not bad though, but that'll be interesting. Do you, do you have a preferred nickname for this team? Have we talked about that?

No. Um, I, I, I'm just assuming it's gonna be terrible and that they'll overthink it and they won't do something relatively simple. Do you have a preferred nickname?

I love the Knights. I don't think they can do it, uh, because the hockey team is, is that, but that, I think the hockey team did great there and they didn't lean into the cards or the gambling.

Yeah.

You know, whatever that sort of cliché might be. I don't know. I'll be a little more optimistic than you. I think it could be cool. Maybe they lean into the desert nature. But yeah, it's gonna be fun just to see a new NBA team pop up and brand and the expansion.

I like that they're moving into cities that clearly can support an NBA team. At least Seattle, we know we can. Vegas, hopefully. But I still don't think it solves the problem of some of the other franchises that they currently have.

I agree.

They're just kind of, Looking the other way with that stuff. Anyway, Kirk Goldsberry, good luck with the rest of the Texas season. I hope you have your mustache for the whole year. Uh, we're gonna take a break.

Oh yeah.

Come back with your guy Brian Curtis right after this. And now it's time for Sports Power Weekend presented by Mazda, which has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. It's true. All right, so what sports are we looking forward to? First of all, we're heading into October, which I think is the single best Sports month of the year. Sometimes I decide it's April, but usually it's October because of the World Series, college football, NFL, NHL's kicked off, basketball. There's always a good UFC thing. If you look toward the end of the month, um, I think it's October 24th, there's no football on a Saturday, but there's UFC, college, uh, all the other sports are in play, World Series. Anyway, uh, this week I am the most excited for the NFL. Because we have the London game going all the way through to the Sunday night game. It's 14 straight hours of football. I hope I can handle it. Anyway, there's driving, and then there's driving with peace of mind in the Mazda CX-50 Hybrid, which comes standard with a suite of proactive safety features. So confidence isn't an upgrade. It's a given. Mazda— move and be moved.

Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. Visit MazdaUSA.com. To learn more. This segment is brought to you by Uber Eats. My old, old, old friend and colleague Brian Curtis is here. We've known each other since the 1890s. Um, he hosts The Press Box on the Ringer Podcast Network. He writes pieces for us. Rumors of other stuff may be coming. I don't know if— maybe, who knows? Something down the road, maybe, possibly. Um, I have a lot of media stuff for you. And I wanna start with Mike Tomlin because this is the first time I've been excited about a football studio hire. You tell me, since when? When was the last time we were like, wow, halftime's coming? I shushed my wife at halftime of the Sunday night game and upset her, but I was like, Tomlin's talking. Just like, gimme 2 minutes here. And she's like, it's halftime. I'm like, no, no, Tomlin has good stuff. I wanna hear this. And then she got mad.

You didn't feel that way when CBS hired Russell Wilson?

I didn't.

Or Matt Ryan?

I didn't.

These are some of the most exciting people on the planet, Bill.

I don't feel this way really with anyone who does this, but yet with Tomlin— Tomlin, before that Rams game, Rams-Broncos Sunday night, like spelled out what was gonna happen. He is like, I think the Broncos are in trouble. Sean McVay, blah, blah. And they, they were up 16-nothing at one point, and he seemed like a genius. But he forgot to factor in the altitude. Anyway, they're using him really, really well, really, really smartly. And I'm— it almost, like Sal said Sunday night, it makes me mad he didn't do this sooner.

I agree. And I'll tell you what I loved, especially about halftime on Sunday night. 2 things. There was one person there with Maria Taylor. There weren't 4 people.

Yep.

We weren't doing the pregame pass the ball around the perimeter thing where everybody talks for 15 seconds. And as a viewer, you're like, what did you just say?

And nobody listens to anybody. It's just, you wait your turn and you say your 15 seconds. They're not like actually interacting.

You never have a conversation.

No.

You never get deeper into anything. And that's my second point too. What he did at halftime sounded like a football podcast.

Yeah.

If you remember, he was talking about Cowboys-Ravens and he was like, hey, end of the game, Cowboys are in this defense.

Umbrella coverage needed to be in it.

Yeah, exactly. And they were in man-to-man. And then he went to the Commanders and talked about their offensive coordinator and the plays he was calling in that great game down the stretch. And I was like, you know, the thing that has killed pregame shows, halftime shows, and everything is the football podcast. Because even normies like you and me, we're not crushing All-22 on Monday morning. But we know way more about football just by osmosis than we did 20 years ago.

Right.

But these shows never changed. They never met us halfway. And I'm watching Tomlin, I'm like, that's the kind of point we would make on the Ringer NFL Show on Monday morning. And you and I'd be sitting there listening and go, ooh, that's an interesting point. I learned something.

Yeah, it's weird. They try to keep the old infrastructure of how they used to do stuff, and they're just going to go down with the ship for the rest of eternity with it 90% of the time. I was on the East Coast on Sunday night, I mean, all weekend. And on Sunday morning, got up early. It's the first time in a while I'm like, fuck, the games don't start until 1:00. It's pouring rain out. I can't even go walking. I'm like, all right, let's put on the ESPN show. And it's just 5 guys interrupting each other, laughing at things that aren't funny and doing the whole thing. And I'm like, how are we still doing it this way? The cast just keeps changing, but it's the exact same show. And I agree with you, putting Tomlin alone with Maria Taylor on Sunday, we're like, we only have 3 and a half minutes here. We might as well just ride our best person. Everybody else clear out for Tomlin. Nobody does stuff like that anymore.

Nobody. We don't need to hear from Jason Garrett at halftime. We also don't need to hear from Jason Garrett in the pregame show either, by the way. Just throwing that out there. I also think this— I was watching the other day—

Or the pre-pregame show, or any show. Yeah, I'm with you.

Really, we don't need to hear from Jason Garrett in American life is what you're saying.

Yes.

I was thinking about that too. Remember when Jayden Daniels got hurt right before halftime the other day, and they go to the Fox guys, and they just look, like, completely discombobulated at halftime?

Right.

I mean, Howie Long, I mean, just could not get the words out. And you're like, my guy, this is a kind of a big moment in the NFL right now. You gotta gimme something. He's like, well, you know, they built the team around Jayden Daniels. Like, yeah, okay, thanks, man. I appreciate your help with that. It's just the whole thing is like, people don't watch games anymore. And so when you get a guy like that and you're like, oh, you watched this game, that's not even the game you're assigned to. It's not even the game you're at in Tomlin's case.

Right.

And you have like a nice, brief, smart take on it. That's all we want.

Yeah. You have to have the ability to ad-lib, but also center in on 2, 3 things during the day if you're gonna be on an NBC show, which they've, it's been a failure the entire time they've had it. You know, whenever they got football and it was always Dick Ebersol, he loves spending money, he's gonna go, he'll pay top dollar. But they never figured out the actual like surrounding shows. And I didn't, the only time I would ever watch it is if I was preparing for the Sunday night pod and I just wanted to remind myself what some of the highlights were.

Yeah.

But they're doing like the last couple years they've been doing FaceTiming people in the locker room. Who's that for? Hey, Brian Curtis, great win today. And then he's just, his face is taking up the TV. Thanks, Maria. Yeah, we had a good win. I, I just, I, I don't get it. I mean, last year was probably the nadir when they had those, those super brief Matthew Berry fantasy things where he's like, I like Jahmyr Gibbs over 9 yards. Back to you.

And it was recorded at some strange time, and you can't totally tell when.

And then it's going down to Jack Collinsworth. They have, like, 2 different shows at the same location. It's like, how about just pick 4 people or 3 people and let me know what's happening? So, is Tomlin too good is my next question, because sometimes when stuff is too good to be true with TV, it usually is. Yeah.

And this is always a problem with the coach.

Yep.

When you get a coach who is not Jeff Van Gundy, he always wants to coach again. He wants to get back in the game, and his TV stuff is an audition to get back in the game. And, you know, I was a little bit surprised when he took a shot at the Cowboys for the defense, 'cause sometimes coach doesn't criticize other coach.

It's coach-on-coach crime. Yeah.

Coach-on-coach crime. But I'm also like, hey, if you're auditioning for another NFL job, what better thing can you do than criticize another coach? You know, a coach isn't gonna hire you. A GM is, or an owner is.

Right.

Like, it's actually showing off how smart you are. And I mean, isn't he gonna be the number one free agent with all the coaches next year?

Well, he had the Browns gonna Browns thing, whatever he said that every week he said something where you're like, wow.

Yeah.

No, you're firing, you're firing shots here.

Absolutely.

It makes me think he doesn't wanna coach. And I'm sure he's having a great time. Yeah. He's working. He's probably getting paid around the same that he got to coach, right? They had to have overpaid him for the 17 Sundays, couple playoff games, whatever. I mean, I'm sure he's near the top of the salary stratosphere. He's working Saturday, Sundays. Like, he's flying in maybe on a Friday or Saturday. He's having lunch with the guys the night before. He's in a big booth with TVs watching the games on Sunday, and he's home Monday, right?

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I did hear, by the way, there wasn't quite the salary market for Tomlin that some people thought there would be. Just 'cause there wasn't really an opening anywhere.

Well, we didn't know about Romo yet.

We didn't know about Romo.

So, I get— that was my third question. What is the best use of Mike Tomlin? Because I think if you're NBC, and they always have— there's always one game where Collinsworth isn't there, or you have to do the backup crew, however it works out. You've gotta see what he's like doing a game, I think.

Wow.

And, and I think Collinsworth is as good as he's ever been. I'm not trying to push Collinsworth out, but I think you have to just test drive it or you have to put him in the booth with those guys, which I think would be awesome. And I think Collinsworth is a good enough broadcaster that if you put Tomlin in there, he'd be able to play off, you know, and Tirico would know how to handle it. And, but I, I think you have to see it at some point this season, right?

I completely agree. I mean, this is the Jason Garrett slot in previous years. He's been in the booth. This was the Drew Brees slot a couple years ago when he was there, had that all-time terrible playoff game, Bengals versus Ravens, which convinced everybody that maybe he shouldn't be in broadcasting. Had eventually come back and take the number 3 job at Fox just to get back in the game.

By the way, he's not bad.

That's the thing.

I think he's pretty good. I, I— he's been a revelation as not being bad.

This is the thing with Fox. They always say, bring him over here, we'll get you tons of reps, we'll get you really good producers, and we think we can make you into the announcer we want to make you into. And NBC, he just didn't do a bunch of games.

No. Well, we— and we've talked, ever since I've known you, we've talked about this, where they just throw these people into the fire, basically, with little— Jerome Bettis, the most famous example. I still think he should have been good at TV, but they just pushed him in, like, basically off a cliff. Like, learn how to swim! And they just shove you. But with Tomlin, I think I like him more in this role, but I also feel like we're not getting enough of him. And I think there needs to be a second piece of it. And maybe this is just how much he wants to work. But we've seen— like, Belichick tried this, right? Belichick's like, I'm doing media. And he was on 3 different things. And I felt like he played it very safely. You could tell he was holding back. All the shows were different. Inside the NFL was probably the closest to being interesting, but I didn't go out of my way to watch it. And I just felt like he was tiptoeing. Tomlin's the first one in a while that doesn't seem to care if he's gonna get another coaching job or not.

Maybe he doesn't wanna coach anymore. You know, he's done it for a long time. Maybe it's that— maybe that's just it.

Bill Belichick went on that tour because he wanted people to like him. He's like, I'm gonna convince you to like me. And he convinced absolutely no one to like him at all. People already like Tomlin. I think they would hire him if he was out there. But yeah, maybe he wants to be on the Cowherd track. I mean, how long has Bill Cowherd been— speaking of guys you don't pay attention to on Sunday mornings, right? How long has Bill Cowherd been on that CBS show? But I agree with you, I'd put him in the booth. I think the 3-man is actually the best idea.

Yeah.

Because as you said, Collinsworth is great. You don't really have that many games you throw him on unless you start throwing him on like college games, Notre Dame, that kind of stuff, which just doesn't seem like a very good use of Mike Tomlin.

Yeah.

But I would just like find a couple of occasions where you're like, yeah, I'm just gonna put you in here, even for a quarter. Just have some fun.

As you know, I hate 3-man booths and I'm morally opposed to them with very, with very, very few exceptions. This is one where even if he came in, second quarter's perfect for this, right? Before halftime, you know, you can feel it out for 10 minutes, have him talk about what he's seeing in the game and maybe he leaves. But This is— I can't believe this worked out. And then the other thing that's happened, Brady's now good. I don't understand how this happened either. He, he, he's letting it fly now. He's way more comfortable, and he's saying the meatball sub kind of stuff and the piss pistols.

That was great.

And just, it feels like we're closer to what it's like to hang out with Tom Brady. during a game. I don't think he's all the way there yet, but this is going better than I thought year one.

He's got interesting parts of a bunch of different announcers.

Yeah.

He's got Tony Romo's enthusiasm. Like, he sounds genuinely, I'm happy to be here. This is where I want to be in the world watching this game. But then he's got the Troy Aikman thing where when he sees crappy football, he's like, I don't like this.

Right. He's horrified.

Yeah. And you can always tell with Brady and quarterbacks, Like, show me a Brady-Jalen Hurts game, you won't find any compliments. You will find grudging compliments. You can tell exactly what— even when he won the Super Bowl.

Yeah.

You could just tell Brady being like, eh, eh, not my guy. Mahomes loves him. Jared Goff loves him. Justin Herbert, ooh, might be in the Hurts column after the other year. He's just like, you can just tell the way— and it's like, this is what we want to know, right? We want to know what Tom Brady really thinks of people.

Do you think it's weird that he's also owning a part of the Raiders and helping run that team?

Extremely.

Extremely. I talked about it last week. It violates basically one of the basic premises of things you're allowed to do in the NFL and media. And somehow everybody's decided it's fine 'cause it's Tom Brady. I like the, the listener mailbag I had was, it was a Deflategate, like kind of payback. We owe you because we screwed you over on this, so we're gonna look the other way. But It's definitely strange, but he's, I think, is, is at least in the top 3 now. Who do you have for the top 3?

So it's Collinsworth, Aikman, and Brady. That's my top 3.

So you wouldn't put Olsen in there? It's right there.

I don't know.

I, I think I, I think I'll go with those 2, those 3 as my top ones. I really do.

So I have Collinsworth 1, I think I have Brady 2, and I think I have Aikman 3.

And then Olsen?

Probably. JJ Watt, I need more of. That was another topic I wanna discuss 'cause I think Nance and Watt have been really awkward. And at some point, because once the play-by— this happened with Mike Breen too, who I don't think since Van Gundy and Jackson has really found his groove with any partner. in the same way when he was throwing 99 miles an hour with really carrying Van Gundy and Jackson in a lot of different ways. And I just don't think he's matched that since. But I think 'cause it's Mike Breen, we've already decided on Mike Breen. So anytime the broadcast isn't perfect, you always tend to blame the other people, right? And I think that might be the case here with Nance. Like, he— it's the really, really great ones would be able to pull out the J.J. Watt, but a lot of it still feels forced. It's a lot of like, whoa! It's like when we went to that Brazilian place last night, JJ, and, and you, you, the waiter finally tapped out. And it's just like almost like, like they went into AI to have some like fake exchanges to print out to execute or something.

All the Brazil stuff was so magical because we got steakhouses. Yeah, we got dancing and we got Christ the Redeemer. So I also played Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego as a video game and learned those exact facts about Brazil. Thank you guys for for filling me in.

So, so you're in Brazil, right? Is that—

We're in Brazil.

You're in Brazil. Okay.

There's some culture here.

You're in, you're in Brazil.

Got it. First time ever in Rio.

Yeah.

Well, they like, they like field goal kicking here, JJ.

I'm so glad you said Breen as a comp, 'cause that's exactly where I was gonna go. You got a guy who's in his 60s in Nance. He's 67. You're in the last decade of your career, at least at like that level of calling games, you know, being the lead guy. And all of a sudden they're like, you know what? Your analyst isn't your analyst anymore. We're changing things up. You felt you were in a groove. And, and with Nance, maybe it was twofold. Maybe Romo kind of collapsed on him and now he has to like have this new guy. And I'm just like, it just feels— how many times, by the way, did he say JJ Watt's name during that game? Did you notice that after every play? JJ, what'd you see on that play? JJ?

Well, as you know, that's my favorite broadcasting crutch for we don't have chemistry yet. When they— I remember writing about it in my book with— it was Costas, Isaiah Thomas, Doug Collins, just repeatedly just calling each other because nobody had— they had such little chemistry, they had to repeatedly just call out each other so they would know the other person was up next talking. So, you know, that's bad.

Did Costas call him Zeke? Remind me.

Probably, probably year 2, maybe.

Maybe that was when you're like comfortable enough to call him Zeke.

Yeah.

The Watt thing is fascinating because I love linemen. We need more linemen in big jobs like that. And if you listen to him, he's really sharp. He sees the field well. He's got a little of that big glute lineman in him.

Yeah.

And it's funny, a friend sent me a text today. It was like, it feels like he doesn't know how much to lean into that. You know, like, he had little moments where he almost sounds like Alex Karras did when we were kids. You know, it was like, I'm a big old guy, I play football. You know, I'm that kind of lovable lug. But I don't know, it all felt a little downbeat to me. He also started getting really shouty at the end of the game, if you noticed. When things got exciting, he was just— he didn't quite know emotionally how to get there.

Yeah.

The thing about Romo, you and I just have whacked Romo, you know, over and over again over the last couple years. But like, Romo to me understood the emotional parts of football announcing.

Yeah.

That was his great gift. All the, oh, Jim! Oh, here we go, Jim! Like, it was annoying, but that was his superpower. Like, he knew, like, hey, we got Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow coming down the field in the 4th quarter. This is a big deal. Like, I need to underline this. I need to jump on this. I need to, feel what the viewer at home is feeling.

It was the, here we go.

That's what Romo—

Here we go, Jim!

Here we go!

Here we go, Jim!

I know, and it sounds corny, but that's what Romo was really good at. And with Watt, you're like, hey, second-year broadcaster, he's still learning television, but he just doesn't have that sense of the medium that guys like Romo, Collinsworth do, where you just— you have to get a big moment, and you have to just make it feel really big.

Yeah, and even when Romo— I just don't think he worked as hard the last couple years, and you could feel it. There's just no question.

He didn't know the names of the linemen.

Yeah, it was— I mean, when they started saying the numbers, Herb Street does this too now because he's just doing too much, too many, too many games every week. But like, ah, 78 was there. It's like, all right, you know. By the way, I'd be a disaster because I wouldn't be able to remember anyone's number. It is a certain skill. But I think when you're, when you're doing a Thursday game and a Saturday game, it's a pretty tall task to begin with. But with Romo, like, I, I did feel That his superpower was the more invested he was in whatever the moment or the drive or whatever, it made me more invested. And with Watt, I think he has good stuff. Like, he did the Pittsburgh-New England game, and it was annoying because his brother's on Pittsburgh, right? And it's like, there's no way you're not rooting for Pittsburgh. I know you're trying to suppress it. So as a Pats fan, I'm like, fuck you. Like, wait, really? We have to have TJ Watt's brother do this game? But he did have good stuff. It's just, I— like, you wouldn't be able to do an SNL sketch about him.

And which I think is weirdly a part of how to be a great announcer is you have to almost be able to be teased, like, for whatever your character is. Like, and Brady already definitely has that. Romo had that in spades. Madden had that. And JJ Watt— and I think Greg Olsen fits into this too, where it's like, They're good at their job. They do perfectly fine job. But I wouldn't be doing, like, J.J. Watt impersonations on my podcast on Sunday night. I don't know if that matters.

What would you parody is what you're asking?

He's fine. He does a good job.

Yeah, right.

He's like a B or a B+.

These sound observations. And I was thinking about this at CBS, right? So Romo's in purgatory. He's in timeout.

That was gonna be my next question. Like, where is he? It's gonna be week, week 4 this week.

Week 4, you're David Burson and you're sitting there and you're like, part of this equation, as we know, is not just a moral equation. It's like, do I have a number 1 announcer that I can just put into that slot and feel good about for the next couple years, or at least the rest of this year?

Yeah.

And I look at Watt and I'm like, I can see it, I could project it, but I'm not sure he's the number 1 guy.

Or he's in a 3-man booth as the number 2 guy. I feel like he needs another person.

Yeah.

And again, I don't like 3-man booths, but it, it just feels like it needs a little more oomph. It, there's something to be said about seeing Brady, and especially seeing Brady these days, but seeing Brady and it just, it's like, that's Tom Brady. You know, Collinsworth has been in our lives for this entire century as an announcer, and it still feels like a big game when he's there. I think Tirico's the best he's ever been announcing football. Just in general. Like, he's still— I feel like he's still climbing as a play-by-play guy. His football stuff is fantastic.

He's leveling up in front of our eyes, which I didn't think was totally possible. Have you noticed, like, when there's a weird rules moment, before the referee can even talk, he's diving in to tell you, and there's not gonna be a 10-second runoff here.

Yep.

Because the clock was stopped. And just like, it's this command of small things.

Combined with the moment too. Like, he's— if it's a good play, he's by far the best guy on a big play. You know, and this was what Al used to be great at forever. But Tariko's on top of it. He's got the right amount of excitement. But then you're right, he also has that nerd side, which I felt like was holding him back for the first 10 years. He had to be perfect with everything, right? He had to, like— you know, he was like that batter at the batter's box who had to do his gloves 9 times and grab his cup. And now he— I think he lets it fly better. I think he's the number one football play-by-play guy right now. I don't think it's close.

I sat in a booth with him for The Ringer a couple years ago for a piece, and this dude came out for the Bengals. He was like a backup defensive tackle. And Tirico's calling the game, and he pulls out this iPad that he's written all these notes on, and he's calling the game, and he starts going like this through the iPad. This is— television is happening at this point. And he finds this note about this guy, about his usage rate, how many snaps he played in the last couple games, 'cause he barely played at all. And has the exact number of snaps, and just goes all the way, and then just puts the iPad away. And I'm like, how the hell did you do that? And just watching that, that's not something you— you can't remember everything.

Right.

So, you're reaching for things during the game, and looking over here, and all that stuff. And yeah, I feel he's really, really, really good. good and getting better, which is the scary part.

He's probably, I would say, this generation's Michaels for the ability to basically be thrown into anything and be really good.

And top of the line. I agree. And then the interesting part is also with Collinsworth, 'cause I asked him about this once. I was like, what's the difference between calling a game with Al and calling a game with Mike? And he goes, Al was a little more snarky, a little down here. And so, Consworth went way up. He felt like he needed to be Mr. Energy. Oh, you know, I can't do the Cousin Sal imitation, but he felt like he needed to be that Chris. Mike's way up here, right? He's an energy guy. So, I think that also allowed Consworth to come down a little bit. I mean, remember the great Caleb Williams throw in the playoffs last year? And Tirico calls the play perfectly, and then you just hear Consworth just laughing.

Yeah. He can pull that laugh out 5 seconds after the play now. He's got it on playback. He just lays out and then he laughs. It's great.

And that was— that to me is like the perfect pairing for them. Collinsworth can kind of relax and be Chris Collinsworth, who's been with us since 1990 on network television.

Yeah.

And Mike is calling the game superbly.

I thought Luke Kuechly was interesting, but unfortunately on Netflix, he doesn't get enough games. I almost wish he could get more reps calling stuff during this season. But that's another one where it's like the A-traditional— he was a linebacker, J.J. Watt's a defensive lineman. But I like the perspective of those guys. They always come up with a couple things where I'm like, huh. He did a lot of generic stuff too, but for the most part, I thought he was pretty interesting.

There was some generic stuff and some stuff that just sounded like, I'm supposed to talk for exactly 9.8 seconds here, and then I shut off. But he's another guy. Yeah, give him a full season on Fox or CBS, and he could really turn into something interesting.

So you noticed the Brees thing too? I didn't realize who it was, and I was flipping games around, and then whatever game he was doing, ended up with the sound. And I'm like, this guy's good. Who's this? And it was like, it's Drew Brees.

Wow.

I was pleasantly surprised, but I thought he feels feistier now.

He does. The Fox guys were always like, we felt like there was something there that didn't get used at NBC.

Right.

And mostly it's just doing games and do, hey, you're in the number 3 slot until you bring the sound over there. You're not focusing on Drew Brees like we would be if he had a big, big job.

Yeah.

Greg Olsen's gonna clearly go away, and he's gonna be the number 2 guy pretty soon. And that's interesting. Herb Street.

I've been watching a lot more college football this year. It's really been a Bill Simmons college football renaissance. Who are you scouting? Including the 4-0 UCLA, which is—

Oh, right.

Covering—

You got UCLA.

Covering my 5th— I've watched every UCLA game. I try to watch the big game of the week. I'm fascinated by the quarterbacks. There might, there might be some wagering as well to, to pique my interest. But yeah, put me in the camp of if it, if his name was Arch Lewis, I don't think he would be in the top 3. I like, I know other people have made that point. I think it's 100%. I don't, when I watch all these quarterbacks, they have flaws, they do good things, they do bad things, but I personally don't see it as a top 3 pick, but you— this is your team. You, you're a Texas guy. So do you see it? What am I missing?

When Kirk Goldsberry and I were there at the Ohio State game, when it was 94 degrees at kickoff at 6:30 at night, and we were like 2 old men in a sauna that are like talking to each other in towels. What are you doing here, Kirk? It's just like, he's the most incredibly frustrating guy I've ever seen. 'Cause I agree with you, if it weren't Manning, you'd be like, eh, I don't, I don't think this guy's it. He's just not consistent enough. And the funny thing about him being a Manning is I think maybe his best skill is using his legs. He's a really good runner.

So a traditional Manning. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. He's a great runner. And when he's more like a col— you know, a lot of college quarterbacks, like, is a good enough passer, but when you combine good enough passing with like a really dynamic runner who can just go to the house all the time, that, then you can win some games. Yeah, that's Arch to me. I don't see him as like a classic top 5 pick because, hey, you know, he's got great pocket awareness and I mean, he takes forever to get through his reads. He makes dumb throws all the time. How many times— he twice against Tennessee, if you were watching on Sunday, he threw balls past the line of scrimmage. You're like, what? His 4th year? You're a Manning, you're throwing balls past the line of scrimmage?

Well, with Herb Street, I just don't totally get it. What am I supposed to get?

That's college announcer we're talking about. We're not talking about Thursday Night Football.

We're not even going to NFL yet. For the college, because I think that's— he's the most respected college guy, right? Is there somebody more respected than him?

Joel Klatt's probably the 1B.

Okay.

On Fox.

And I'm not saying he's bad, but what am I missing? Because he seems pretty generic to me. And like, especially compared to the NFL guys we talked about, I just don't think he's in the same class.

As a college guy, his claim to fame is that he's a human computer. You got way more teams to worry about.

Okay.

You got way more players to worry about, and the players change all the time. So it's just a completely different job than the NFL when you're coming back year after— 10 years later, you're watching the same quarterback that you've— games you've called. Well, I will say this, when he does a Texas game, He'll say little things about the roster, and there are things that are not only just like correct, but are the, the really good take about it. I'm like, oh, that's the stuff I'm reading about on my message board.

Yeah. So he's incredibly well prepared.

There's a lot of really bad college announcers. So welcome to college football, first of all. And if you're watching UCLA and they don't have like the lead or the even like the 4th or 5th telecasts, it gets pretty bad. And you get guys that are like, man, did you read the program? Before you started calling this game. I've never caught Herbie in that situation ever.

Okay. Well, that, that's a good and compelling case. He certainly, I like, I, I haven't heard anybody that I thought was better with him in college, but I also don't feel like it's not like John Madden. I'd have no idea why he's doing these Thursday Night NFL games. Now maybe they just needed a name and it was like, just this was, oh shit, we have football this year. Who can we get? Who's available? And this is the biggest name and you do it. But I just think he's a college guy who also, like, on the side, kind of seems like he's following the NFL. And I don't really learn anything from him during the games. And then I don't— he says pretty basic stuff. It's not a great experience.

You remember when they were looking to fill that job, it was Sean McVay, I think, was choice one. Troy Aikman, they wanted. They wanted John Lynch.

Yeah.

They wanted all kinds of people for that job, and then everybody said no or was unavailable. And all of a sudden it was like, okay, Herbie, let's put him with Al. And they could have had Greg Olsen, by the way, for that job way back when. That was not somebody they pointed at. It's interesting. And this feels, I mean, this feels like maybe his last, his contract's up this year and maybe he just goes back and does it.

Well, now that he has the dog store, now he's, who knows where that goes?

That was, that was in Mississippi. Was that what it was?

Pop-up dog stores. As you know, I love dogs.

You're a dog guy.

I've never had less than 2 dogs since 2004. Love dogs. Wrote pieces about my dogs. The dog—

Very memorable one.

Dog store's a little much. Come buy a coffee mug with my dog's face on it. A portion of the proceeds goes to veterinarian clinics. What's happening? Like, that is just a heat check.

Yeah.

That is a classic, like, eh, nobody in your life tried to talk you outta that one?

I have not sat down on the couch, the psychologist couch with Herbie, but also when I see him now, like, this is a guy who got the GameDay job when he was 26 years old.

Ooh.

He got that 30 years ago. Like a child actor.

30 years ago.

Yeah.

He became the host of College GameDay on ESPN. And he's been calling the games for 15-plus years now. And it just feels like he's in this part of his life, part of his career where he's like, what do I do now? Do I just, you know, roll this out and go to Oxford? And I think he still loves that. Like, he still seems like with college, he seems like he is into whatever's in front of him. But also, there feels like there's a little bit of searching going on there, perhaps.

I think that sounds fair. Speaking of searching, Charles Barkley?

Oh.

He said on my podcast a few weeks ago that this was his last year. It wasn't even really a news story because he said this multiple times before. And I joked on the podcast that he was the Muhammad Ali of retirements, which he took exception to and claimed he had only tried to retire once. I let it go.

Fact check false.

He said it again this week that this is going to be his last year. Do you believe him?

I don't believe him. The only thing that made me think twice was the Ernie Johnson part of it. So let's say Ernie does retire, 'cause that's what Charles is saying, right? This is gonna be my last year on Inside the NBA and Ernie's last year.

Yeah.

Could he do that show with somebody other than Ernie? And here's the more interesting question. Who'd you put on that show as a host if Ernie does retire?

It is one of those things. Every time it's not Ernie, I'm bummed out.

Agreed. I mean, that's like Ernie's perfect place in the broadcast universe. Like, I don't know if you'd put him on— I think he would've been fine if you put him on like an NFL pregame show or something like that, but that show is where he belongs. And if he were to leave and you were trying to keep the chemistry, which has already been kind of threatened by the ESPN thing, and it's already, you know, everybody felt a little bit weird about it last year.

They gave them a lot of time in the playoffs though. I, I think my, my one fear about that, the time stuff would screw them up, was not really what happened.

ESPN rallied late and gave them time, which was good.

They did. It'll be different this year when McAfee's on the show.

Is he doing that too?

I don't know. It's funny that, you know, it seems like he gets written about a lot, and my, my attitude on all of it is I don't really care. Like, he's on a lot of stuff. They absolutely like him. Like, more power to him. He works really hard. I respect the work ethic.

When people freaked out about the NFL pregame show, I'm like, isn't this what you want Pat McAfee doing? Like, football talk, talking ball on the pregame show. He's one of your big stars. Of course you want him on here.

Yeah. I mean, and same thing with College GameDay. I think the Stephen A. Smith piece of it is fascinating though, that this was basically how they were treating Stephen A. Smith 2 years ago and putting him on everywhere to the point that people were getting pissed off. And then there's been organizational stuff behind the scenes at ESPN. There's new people in charge of this stuff who are, I would say, it's fair to say, pro-McAfee. And Stephen A., who got this new deal and is on 2 other shows that aren't on ESPN. And it seems like they've come to a little bit of a, okay, you're just gonna do First Take, maybe pop on a couple other things every once in a while, and that's gonna be his ESPN relationship. But that was not the case 2 years ago.

Things really flipped, didn't they?

Yeah.

Remember writing Stephen A. is the most powerful talent in ESPN history became such a cliché that we all stopped writing it? And all of a sudden you're like, ooh, I don't think he is anymore.

They kept him away from Inside the NBA. I don't— did he ever even go on that show? I don't think they had. I mean, they really—

I don't remember.

I thought that was interesting.

I thought so too. And now Pat McAfee can do anything he wants.

We have to be careful because I don't want him to start his YouTube show tonight saying, Bill Simmons, you and I have always gotten along, but my name was in your mouth and we have to talk about this. Stephen A. knows how that goes. We're gonna get down. Stephen A. knows how that goes. I don't know if you should be on 3 shows a day. I don't think that's sustainable. That's just a lot of work. I'm somebody who does shows. It's hard to research them and follow everything. To just do 3 a day, every day, I am just— I worry about him. I don't know if that's ultimately gonna be efficient for him, but I guess we'll see.

I agree. He has different things on different shows. First Take is still First Take, recognizably so, even if he didn't quite have the co-host, go-to guy that he did in past years.

No.

But then the politics thing just seems to be either him interviewing potential presidential candidates or him just calling out some journalist and getting into some huge fight. with somebody from his past, or— and I was like, what is this?

Yeah, there was a whole thing. I, I barely followed it, but he went on Jamel and Keri Champion's show and then didn't like— and then it just kept going for a couple days.

And, and then was doing post the full interview after it was over.

Every time I saw something about it, it was on my Twitter whatever, but I realized that was on the For You page. I'm like, no, no, this is not for me. And then you go to the people you're following. But yeah, it just feels like you could have a side career just intermittently doing these— they're almost like wrestling things. It's like what we grew up in the '80s where it's like, magnificent Morocco, you had your name in my mouth, but when we're at the Nassau Coliseum on Friday night, I'm going to show you. And that's kind of half of sports media now.

Yeah. Yeah. Our Undertaker voice. Carry champion.

Good luck to everybody. Charles Barkley. So you think he is coming back?

I think he's coming back. By the way, remember his retirement?

After this year? You think he's back after this year?

I think he's back. Okay. I think he's back forever. Okay. I still, I'm old enough to remember when he was going to retire to go to LIV Golf 4 years ago. People forget about that retirement. There was the whole, I'm going to retire when I'm 60, I'm going to retire when the Turner deal's over, I'm going to retire when Ernie retires. But there was also, I'm going to retire to go to the Renegade golf thing. Yeah, that just turned out to be completely bogus.

He's coming back.

A lot of money being thrown around. But the LIV was the all-time, wait, how much are you offering? And then some golfers took it.

Oh yeah. I mean, Barkley had that quote like, I, you know, hey, I have a price.

There, there is a price that I would go to LIV Golf. I mean, we've seen that with comics. We've seen that with all types of people. We have the MLB, we're taping this during the Phillies-Braves game, but we, we have the MLB playoffs, which is always interesting because it always reminds me that we've never been 100% satisfied with an MLB national color guy ever. Who came the closest?

Early McCarver.

Yeah, I think that's the answer.

ABC McCarver.

ABC. And then early with Jack Buck McCarver, probably till the mid-'90s. And then people started turning. He was one of the first announcers when I might even made fun of him in my college column. But when I had my website, just so easy to do McCarver material. And then we had him and Dierdorf at the same time, and plus Paul McGuire on ESPN.

Oh my God.

And all the basketball guys were terrible. It was like a smorgasbord for me, stuff to make fun of.

Whenever I'm reminded, like, whenever I complain about announcers now, I'm like, it used to be so much worse.

Yeah.

There were just always, like, guys who were like, man, that dude's doing a national game?

Right. Yeah. They'd surprise us over and over again, especially in the NBA.

And McCarver got cranky. This is the thing. Why do baseball announcers get cranky the longer they're in the seat?

Oh, that Joe Morgan, even a more famous example.

Smoltz has gotten crankier.

Yeah, I don't— it's not doing it for me. And it's another— there's something about baseball too where every fan base decides pretty early on that you hate their team. And I think Smoltz probably has the most of these. I don't know a single fan base who's like, yeah, John Smoltz has been fair to us. Everybody's, John Smoltz, fuck that guy, he hates us. Everybody thinks he's carrying on these grudges like he's Michael Corleone in these games. And, you know, I just think that we've never figured out how to move baseball announcing into the 21st century. You know, I think about it when I obviously watch a ton of Red Sox, and I think the Red Sox stuff is more on the higher end of some of these broadcasts, but it's still, it's a lot of filler. It's a lot of babbling. It's a lot of— Just trying to kill time.

Yes. Even with shorter games.

Yeah.

Killing time. It's funny, I texted a baseball announcer this morning 'cause I knew you and I were gonna talk, and I was like, hey, who's the color guy I should be really excited about to hear in the postseason?

Ooh.

'Cause I can't think of anybody. And the announcer wrote back, the reason you can't think of anybody is 'cause there's not anybody. How's that possible?

I— it's—

yeah. And I was just trying to think of names like, You know, and I was like, what, what is it? It's like, is it, you know, Ron Darling and Jeff Francour on TBS? Does that get you there? I mean, that, that's solid to me, right? That's not bad. Ron Darling, that sounds like baseball.

I think Pedro could have done it, but it's easier to do studio stuff. I think Pedro could have been really good. He's really smart with baseball.

Poppy's good in studio, I think. Like, but just in the booth, we haven't had that. We haven't had that guy. I mean, I think Lou Merlone's doing Red— the Red Sox-Yankees series, right? With Jason Benetti. On NBC?

Yeah, Lou's good. I actually think as a local guy, he's about as good as we've had.

That's not bad.

Yeah. But I'm surprised he's doing our series. Like, if I was a Yankee fan, I wouldn't feel great about that.

Oh, but it's also Joe Girardi's part of that too. This is the thing with NBC, right? They like the local flavor, get it in there. That to me is not a bad solution.

Yeah, it's not bad. It's just strange that we haven't had Somebody who mixes like the old school way of how we used to talk about baseball when it was just, we were all full of shit versus the new school way using the stats and launch angles and all these different things. Like you could, there's some really interesting discussions out there.

Do you think that this is just the networks not paying enough attention to baseball 'cause they've spent all their time thinking about their football stuff?

Probably. But the difference is I think the baseball audience is really gonna keep growing this decade. Assuming they don't have a lockout.

Coming off the most amazing World Series you can imagine.

Red Sox-Yankees best 2 of 3 is just amazing that that's happening, right? And then we have all these other teams that are in the mix, like the Cubs and the Phillies. I don't know.

Yeah, it's a weird mystery that they haven't developed, especially one big national guy you're like, I can't wait to hear that guy break down a game. 'Cause if this were the NFL playoffs, you and I would be excited about Brady and Aikman and Collinsworth and Olsen. We'd be like, oh, look, I can't wait to hear what he has to say. Like, that'll be a fun, a fun listen. And I'm just like, who is that in baseball right now?

I think it, with baseball podcasting, it's been a little similar. 'Cause there's almost 2 different conversations going on with baseball at all times. And nobody has figured out how to synthesize those for a larger audience. Whereas we have 50 NBA podcasts that could probably appeal to whoever. Like, even this hockey podcast we just added, the What Chaos guys, they're really good. And it's like, the reason we never had a hockey podcast at Grantland or at The Ringer is I just never heard one that I felt like could cover the sport the way, like, how fucking fanatical hockey fans are, but also would do it in an accessible way to casual fans. It's like the hardest thing to balance. And hockey and baseball and soccer, I think to some degree too, you really have to nail both demos. 'Cause if you don't hit both, they— one or both will go. And that's just how it goes.

Also goes back to what we were talking about with Tomlin. Like there's a bridge between baseball statistics and all the great data we have at our fingertips now, and then appealing to a general audience and being funny and relatable.

Yeah.

And emotional.

Right.

And it's got to be doable because there's so many football announcers that do it. Greg Olsen does that, right? He dignifies the X's and O's, and he's that guy. Chris Collinsworth is that guy. Chris Collinsworth used to own a data company, right? This can be done, but I just don't know why that person hasn't been found in baseball. And again, I just— I wonder how much they've even tried to develop that person, gone shopping for it in the way they would with the NFL.

Every time you think things are evolving, PTI is just cranking out another year as the best half-hour sports show. This format that was created in 2000.

Yeah. They got that award the other day. You know, there was like— what was it from? I can't remember which college was gonna give them an award. And I'm like, they're just winning— they're into just like, oh, great. We're honored to accept another award. Here we go.

Yeah, it's like The Pit season 12, just going up there, just getting more Emmys.

And that's because they're grandfathered in, right? We couldn't create another show on ESPN that would be that, right?

I didn't like when Wilbon gave the answer about if Tony retired, when he said the thing about, well, I would do it with Frank Isola then. I was really surprised he said that. I thought the correct answer would've been, It's my show with Tony. Like, I want to do this show with Tony for as long as he wants to do it. I'm not going to think about what's happening after. It was weird that he had somebody warming up in the bullpen. I was really, really surprised by that.

I agree. It would be really weird to see it just with one of them permanently. It's weird when one of them's gone, you know? It's weird. That's a show where, like, I know they do fill-ins and stuff, including Isola, who's good, but it'd be weird not to have Mike and Tony together.

Well, Tony's been retiring for 12 years and it's on the Charles Barkley plan almost at the end of 2026. So I'm so old, nobody wants to look at me. I just don't see him. And the ratings are fine. I saw it the other day. They had an hour-long show and that was like maybe like 3, 4 weeks ago, um, which Tony has resisted forever. He feels like that would be the death of the show. The moment it went for an hour, was it not interesting? Like they made the little 5 good minutes, those interviews were longer and they figured out a way to string it along. You basically have to do 42, 43 minutes of content instead of 22. But I wasn't against it.

No.

Part of the magic though. Sometimes you gotta evolve a little bit, you know?

I agree. The shortness of it though, back in the day was part of the magic 'cause it felt like the length of a column they would write in the Post.

Right.

Remember columns? Remember how short they were compared to everything now? It's not like a Substack that just goes on for hundreds and hundreds of words. It's like, oh, you know, nice and tight.

You remember those?

I do.

What do we think is the ideal sports column length?

I don't know the inches, but I think like around 1,000 words. Maybe, maybe, maybe you could talk me into 850.

Yeah, I remember when I was doing the magazine thing. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Don't read too much into that. But, um, Mm. But the, uh, I started out with 650, which was just basically putting myself in a car bomb. Like, there, I had no chance. I'm just blowing up every week. I couldn't barely say anything at 650 words. Then they gave me like, it was like somewhere around 810, and that was a little better. Like, I could at least have like, here's the premise and race through it, hit some bits and go. But then I finally ended up at 1,250, which was 2 pages. It was like between 1,225, 1,250. And I really felt like that was a pretty good length. So I personally think it's somewhere probably between 1,000 and 1,250. But, you know, I've seen some stuff I've written, like some of the, not even mailbag things, stuff I wrote that would be like 5,500, 6,000 words. I didn't even think twice. I'm like, people read this. I don't think anyone would read that now. I would have to spend like a month on it to make every single part of it perfect to even put that out because people are just— they're just doing this all day.

I don't know how you could capture their attention like that.

Yeah. And you're talking about with the magazine stuff that's written, you have some time to do or you're thinking about a little bit.

Yeah, 100%.

Where I'm talking about newspaper stuff that you're writing in a press box, you know how long you just A game just happened.

Yeah. Fair, fair, fair.

Yeah. Right.

Like the—

you got an hour.

A Turner. Shaughnessy. I gotta say Shaughnessy, who I've obviously had a lot of problems with over the years, he still cranks out those 850. I have an angle. Boom, boom. Same kind of thing. They, I mean, Sally Jenkins is probably still, I would say the best pure columnist for that, although she's not at the Washington Post anymore. But, but that there's still a couple people that still do it that way. Yeah.

It was such an art. It was such— I mean, just in terms of, like, having ideas and then having to react. You know, this thing happened right before me, and I gotta just sit down and write this baby, and it's gotta be great.

Those were all my favorite things I ever wrote when I had a limited amount of time to do it. Because I think that's when the degree of difficulty comes in on top of whether you wrote something good or not. But when you have some sort of obstacle, and you have to do it. Those are always— like, the best piece I ever wrote was after game 4, game 5 of the ALCS, when just coming home from that, having to stay up till 5 and write something that I thought ended up being really good. But trying to capture that, but having a limited amount of time, but also like starting to fade because I'd been up for 22 hours, you know? And I'm drinking like a Big Gulp Coke trying to get through it. Like, those are like— when you pull those off as a writer, those are the best.

And it's so immediate.

Yeah.

You're not— you don't get in your own head because you can't.

You can't.

It's just like, what's the metaphor? Okay, I'll take it. First choice, second choice, third choice. Let's go. You know? Well, that's a good lead. Okay, I'll take it.

That's what screenwriters will say, that, like, when they talk about, like, advice for screenwriters, and it's always like, don't slave over your script. Like, just try to bang out in 2, 3 days, the bones of the first draft of the thing, and then worry about filling in all the color later, but try to bang out the structure, all the beats. And you'll hear, like, people will write the first drafts of movies, like famous movies that we know about, in like 2 or 3 days, 'cause they're just like, I'm putting my head down and going, and I'm banging all of it out, and I'm gonna trust my fingers and see where it goes. And I have a general idea. I don't know, that became, as I got older, the part that terrified me, which I think happens to everybody, but not to you because you're still writing.

Well, and then we became podcasters, so it's all kind of— it's deadline podcast.

Because it's easier to podcast.

It is way easier to podcast.

It's way easier. And I still put a lot of the beats and the thoughts and stuff I would do, but it's not even remotely as I don't know, impactful as writing something that people could read that you're actually— I think the thing that worries me about some of the writing now is people— I think there's a sameness to a lot of this stuff. And I don't mean that in a bad way or a good way. It's just, I think people are so used to writing emails and texts and whatever that when they write, they're like, here are my thoughts. And they kind of put the thoughts and they structure them a certain way.

Yeah.

The stuff we grew up with, people would be like, here are my thoughts, they're over here. Now I'm gonna figure out how to tell you my thoughts, but I'm gonna use some sort of fun innovation or gimmick or thought, or I'm gonna take these thoughts and twist them, or I'm gonna take the way you thought I was going, I'm gonna zag the other way. And that was part of what we loved. All the great writers were, you know, that we loved, the sportswriters or culture writers or whatever, they all had that second thing. And now you kind of don't need it in 2026. It's like, here's my premise. Boom, I'm going.

It's almost a badge of honor to do the Axios thing. Like, here's some bullet points.

Yeah.

Let's forget all that fancy lead and a zag. Let's just go straight down the list.

Well, don't you think part of it is a fear of, if this doesn't work, I'm going to be made fun of tomorrow? And it's way easier for a writer to be made fun of in 2026 than really 2020 and 2016 and '11.

I guess so. I feel like I don't see the purple prose ridicule as much as I did maybe like—

The heyday of it 15 years ago.

Yeah. Yeah. Just 'cause maybe 'cause there's not that much of it at all. And by the way, what you're talking about, what we grew up with and we were doing when we were younger in this business, Bill.

Yeah.

Like sometimes you'd do that and you'd be like, wow, that was just, that was terrible. Like what? That gimmick I came up with was really stupid.

Yeah. But that's the thing. You're not gonna bat 100% on gimmicks.

No.

You know?

But, It would also sometimes unlock something and be like, ooh, that got to a different level than I could have gotten to if I'd just told it straight.

Yeah. One of the things I used to do on my old website, I used to have these characters, Murph and Sully, that I would talk about Boston sports through. And I would just write these dialogues of the way, and I would try to make it like a bunch of the way I was talking to my friends when I lived in Boston. I would never do that now. And I don't even know if it worked, but I really liked it. And some of them worked, some of them didn't. But I was like, fuck it, I'll do another Murph and Sully. And now I don't think I would— it would never even occur to me to do it. You would never do like a fake—

you're reading Mike Royko and Jimmy Breslin and like, what's my version?

Fake dialogue pieces. When's the last time you read one? But some of them ends up, but it seems like in general, especially in the Substack era now, you're writing for people who really like you. and you're getting that audience, but then how do you pull other people in is gonna be the big question, I think, over the next 5 to 10 years.

I think so too. And also, if you're writing for an audience that likes you, how do you challenge the audience that likes you? Right. They're there because you give them a widget. And what happens when the widget isn't something they want or something they like? I mean, the old way, you worked for a paper, you worked for a magazine, and part of it was just crossing up the audience sometimes. Just like, ah, you thought I was going to write this today, huh?

Right.

Bam!

Yeah, eat that.

Send your letters to the editor, jerk. And you just kind of live with it, right? And that was part of the way you made your reputation of being a little bit unpredictable and saying, I'm not going to do what you think. I got more pitches here.

Right.

And I do wonder now if the changeup is as common as it was, because, again, people expect a certain thing, you know, and, and, and challenging them in that way, you're like, oh, it's not like people are going to unsubscribe from the paper because you wrote that column, but they might unsubscribe from the Substack.

True. It's true.

If you piss them off enough.

Do you subscribe to Substacks more for information or for, um, the, the quality of the writing itself?

A little bit of both. I think what I do is I try to recapture what I liked about the old world in Substacks. There's Cowboys one that I just love because it's just like, here's the Cowboys column. Yeah. That I, that I, that I crave on. It's like this guy named Bob Stern, but it's like, you know, here's the, here's the one about the column about the offense, column about defense, the preview for the big game that's like really stat, stat driven, but also like well-written. And I'm like, yeah, this is what I want. This is what I need in my life. Right. You can go out and seek out the thing.

I like, obviously we have a lot of writing on theringer.com, which I'm very proud of. I get excited when I see, you know, all the, all the angles that people could come up with have been done at this point after we've been on the internet now for 30 years. But I, I always get excited when somebody executes the angle correctly. Like Austin Gale had a piece, he did the, uh, the take meter with the, with the different things going on. And I read one, I texted him, I was like, that was just really good. You should be proud of that. Like you, you had the right things, you wrote them correctly, you had good jokes in there. And like, that's— That's what we do. And sometimes that's the win with this stuff. But will it ever be like 2011 again? I don't know.

You mean when we launched Grantland?

No, just that era of how many writers were coming up, everybody, like, the energy behind it and all the different styles. And I wonder if we'll ever have that many writers again trying that many different things.

I, uh, I don't think so, because everybody was coming up as a writer.

Right.

Well, also— You weren't coming up as a podcaster yet.

Well, and also, people were reading back then.

People were reading.

Maybe reading will come back. Jesselneck Book Club's happening. You're keeping it alive on Instagram.

Movies are back. Baseball's back.

Why not reading? Reading's next. It's gonna be unbelievable. My wife would say reading never left because she loves audiobooks, and a lot of people she knows who get older, when they drive around, they either listen to podcasts or audiobooks. audiobooks.

So there's those people. Yeah, I think, I don't, I think my reading has bounced back. You know, my young parent years were, were pretty rough.

Yeah.

I could barely write and that, that was kind of my first priority, much less sit down and like read something I was interested in reading. But I've bounced back the last several years.

What was the Brian Curtis Book Club, what was your book of the year so far, 2026?

Oh, uh, Regime Change, probably Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. Just in terms of like a pure page turner, like, oh wow, I just want to read and I want to read this right now.

Remember books you just wanted to read right now? Right.

That was a time. Yeah.

Maybe it'll come back. Maybe a lot of stuff will come back, including Charles Barkley. All right, Brian Curtis, the Press Box. Follow Brian Curtis. Who knows? There might be more stuff under his sleeve. You never know with this guy. What's your final Texas prediction, by the way, for the football season?

I think 10-2 and in the playoff, and we'll see from there.

10-2.

Even that's, even that's pretty bold, 'cause man, the SEC, is loaded this year. It's gonna be a tough schedule.

All right.

Great to see you as always. We'll see you in the office.

Great to see you, Beau.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kirk and Brian. Thanks to Gehal and Eduardo and Chris from the Ringer side as well. I'm gonna be back on Thursday with an action-packed football podcast, but probably a little baseball too. So stay tuned for that. See you in a couple days. Must be 21+ and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18+ and present in D.C. or Wyoming. Opt-in required bonus issued as non-withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration, max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877-888- Hope NY, or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.