Transcript of NBA Day One Reactions, Plus Blake Griffin and Peter Berg (Two Interviews!)

The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did It Follows, which I think is one of the best horror movies of the last 15 years. That's our 3rd horror movie of the month. You know what that means? We're gonna have to do a 4th one next week, next Monday, and we're gonna be doing it live on Netflix at 5 PM ET. I'll tell you the movie on Thursday. But we've done It Follows, we've done Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and we've done Friday the 13th. 3 signature horror movies for my favorite month, October. Because not only was it the month Michael Myers kept coming back again, and it's a horror movie month, and I love Halloween in general, but we also have football, we have the World Series, we have college football, and we have the NBA coming back, which I'm going to be talking about at the very top of this podcast. 3 NBA games. And all of them were interesting for different reasons. So I'm gonna open a 6-pack of thoughts on that. And then I have 2 interviews. Yeah, usually some, it's a rarity for me to do 1 interview, but there were 2 people that we got to do in person that I really like talking to.

Blake Griffin, we talked about the NBA season that's coming up. We did that today. We talked about youth sports. We talked about his new Amazon show, all kinds of things. And then Peter Berg, my old buddy, who I think the first time he was on this podcast, I was, it might even been pre-Grantland at ESPN. He's been on, A few times. He has a new movie coming out called The Mosquito Bowl, which is excellent. And we talked about that and we talked about a variety of topics. So a double interview pod for you. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna come back right after Pearl Jam, and I'm gonna talk about basketball. This is the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. Make every NFL week more rewarding with FanDuel Rewards Club. You heard me. Just bet like you normally would, earn points on eligible settled bets, win or lose. Keep collecting points, level up, and unlock bigger rewards. So keep an eye on your Rewards Club progress and see what you can unlock. This is your most rewarding season ever, and it's with FanDuel. 21+ select states or 18+ DC or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

All right, recording this part of the podcast right after OKC-San Antonio, the 3rd opening night game. Of a season that I think is the most anticipated one that we've had, maybe since LeBron's first Miami season, 2010-11. That season where a lot of young stars, a lot of subplots, just all kinds of things in motion. I'm gonna open a 6-pack for all the basketball I watched today. It's brought to you by Michelob Ultra. It's a special part of today's episode. We're gonna unpack 6 major things that I saw today, brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official— Sponsor. Beer sponsor of the NBA, and a personal favorite beer of mine. Okay, first thing in the six-pack. So I had OKC winning the title. I mentioned that last week or the week before, and I was debating about OKC versus Indiana or OKC versus New York in the finals. And I'm going to take OKC over Indiana is going to be my final pick, just because I like the 30 to 1 odds and. It'll be more fun to be like, the rematch, I called it. Okay. Nothing that I saw tonight changed my mind about that Finals pick.

And if anything, I felt strengthened mentally. I feel good about my OKC pick because you could tell they didn't have a year from hell last year, but not everything went right. And they really just didn't get much of Jalen Williams the way they thought they would get. And SGA had this weird thing with the Spurs that came outta nowhere. Wemby felt pretty confident against them last year. They lose a game, 7 at home. And this was a team tonight that just seemed like they had this game circled and this matchup circled all summer. You could see SGA in his gym in the bowels of Canada or wherever the hell he was over the summer, just pretending he was going against Cassell and all these guys. And Wemby probably had some guy holding a broomstick that he had to shoot over. But SGA was great tonight. I mean, that was about as well as he's played against San Antonio. And the big thing was they lost Dort, they lost Wiggins, they lost Isaiah Joe, which, you know, were not major pieces of their '25 title run except for Dort. But, you know, you always wanna know that you can replenish it.

And not only did they replenish it, like, Jess the Barrier texted about, or tweeted about, about the OKC pipeline, what a triumph just watching this game was, where you have McCain, who they trade for midseason last year, who now feels like he's more valuable to them than AJ Mitchell. who was awesome last year. And then Morrow is the big thing that he comes in, they draft him 12th. I had my doubts, but I thought it was the right range for him to go just 'cause of his size. And that, you know, you'd wanna take him 8th, but 12th is right around like, you know, glorified role player basically. And they take him because they need him for, for this. And watching him go against Wemby, he only played 10 minutes, but it was, it was 10 loud minutes. And it really felt like, you know, it felt important. It's weird. I try never to overreact during game 1 of an 82-game season. We're gonna talk about some other stuff later. But this Marin thing felt important because it reminded me of in the '80s with Andre the Giant, and the WWE would try to bring these people that, you know, villains that could fight him that would be realistic for, you know, that you would think Andre the Giant was in danger.

And they were never the size of Andre the Giant, but they'd kill Rikishi at one point. But then they brought in Big John Studd. And I remember when they brought in Big John Studd thinking, oh man, this is actually like semi-realistic. He might be able to battle the giant here. And Mara came in and, you know, he's not gonna shut down Wemby. I'm sure Wemby will have great games against him at various points over the next 5 to 10 years. Maybe Mara won't stay healthy. Who knows what's gonna happen? But it was the first time you saw somebody in OKC who was able to go toe-to-toe, height-to-height with him. and make Wemby at least think about what he was doing. So I— he looked great in the preseason. He's clearly gonna play. I thought the fact that he played in this game and played meaningful minutes was the second most meaningful thing about this game for OKC. The first thing was just Jalen Williams, who they didn't really have last year, being back to where he was. So I just think they have a better team than San Antonio, but I think it's like this much better.

and injuries could change it. Who knows how, how it's gonna shake out with the minutes on OKC. Kayson Wallace just signed. But everything I saw tonight reinforced what I thought going into the season, that OKC is the team to beat. And San Antonio caught 'em last year, and I don't think they're gonna catch 'em again. So that's where I stand in mid-October, game 1. We have 70— 81 games to go plus 10 weeks of the playoffs. But right now, Feel pretty good about OKC. The other thing, second part of the six-pack, no love lost. We don't get to say this that often with sports where it actually means something. And it means something that I don't know if you saw, I think a thing of spittle just flew out of my mouth. No love lost between these teams. This is not, these aren't teams that are gonna be going to the movies during off days. These aren't teams that are gonna be doing 5-step handshakes with each other. I think there's genuine dislike on both sides. In general, I don't think Wemby really wants to be friends with anybody on the other team. But you could feel it.

There was one classic NBA non-altercation altercation in this game where somehow all 3 Williams in the game got technicals on OKC. But no love lost. And in general, I think that's gonna be a theme for this season. I think there's— I think the days of everybody being too buddy-buddy seem like they're done. Yeah. It really feels like this year we're gonna have some rivalries. You could feel it in the Detroit-Boston game. You could feel it with whoever the Knicks are playing. LeBron has a lot of people that, a lot of teams that are gonna want to go against him for different reasons. We covered that in a podcast earlier. Minnesota is gonna be talking shit the whole season. Houston seems to annoy everybody. You go on and on. But I think this is gonna be a theme of this season. I think it's gonna be a testier season than usual. It won't be like the 1977 season when we had so many fights that everything crested when Kareem broke his hand, and then Kermit Washington sadly threw the most famous punch in NBA history. But it won't be like that. We're not gonna have— it's not gonna be like hockey.

By the way, what's happening with hockey this year? See, it feels like there's more fights and just people getting popped than I can remember. Or maybe that's just my social media algorithm. Algorithm. Um, I didn't— the hockey fighting scares me. It's like they're too good at hockey fighting now. I don't know if you've watched this, but they're really like— they're beating it. They kind of know how to have leverage, and they're really like swinging haymakers. And, um, I miss the old days when they just fought like 4-year-old kids. Anyway, OKC and San Antonio really dislike each other, and I had to mention that in the 6-pack. Not quite worthy of the 6-pack, but I did notice Billy Donovan on the San Antonio bench You know, I, I can't say that was like the greatest Mitch Johnson game tonight, but I do wonder if they started out a little slower than usual. I'm not sure I would've let Billy Donovan on my bench if I'm Mitch Johnson. Be like, no, no, no, I'm good. I'm good with having a famous coach kind of lurking if anything goes wrong here. Okay. Next thing for the Six Pack, the, the 2026-27 Philadelphia 76ers, who won tonight?

They won in New York, which was a given considering they had a long ring ceremony. You're not gonna believe this, but Ben Stiller was filming stuff with his camera. Yeah. You're not gonna believe this, but Fat Joe and Tracy Morgan and Spike Lee were there. Yeah. You knew they were gonna lose. I didn't bet it. I should have bet it. I kind of wanted to see what we were getting from the Sixers thing. But here's my big takeaway from this game. I felt this way before the season. I went slightly under on the Sixers for their over-under total because I didn't know how these guys were gonna mesh. I had a lot of concerns. We have some health stuff. We got to see all of them play together tonight. Just a really fun team to watch. I had a good time. There's a lot of subplots and plots and things happening during a Sixers game. Who's gonna have the ball for specific stretches? Embiid is just a rollercoaster at this point. He looks unstoppable one play, he looks like his career's about to be over the next play. He's all over the place. I didn't think he was particularly good or impactful today, and yet he was impactful.

He made a couple big defensive plays near the end. The Knicks are inexplicably trapping the Maxey high screen, and they're turning into a 4-on-3 with Embiid at the top of the key, and he's just killing them. He's either— or he could shoot. And so that whole experience was all over the map, but kind of in a fun way. LeBron, just in a different uniform, trying to figure out where he fits in. And, you know, sometimes he'll put his head down and he'll get like the fast-break layup, or he'll have a nice pass and he'll do LeBron stuff. Other times he was just standing in the corner. And I think he seemed okay with it, 'cause I think all he cares about is April, May, and June at this point. You had the Jaylen Brown piece where he's, you know, the guy on a 56-win team last year. And this, this year there in the first quarter, he's just in the corner a bunch. And I was like, oh man. And then very smartly, they figured out how to let everybody kind of drive the golf cart, right? This is like an 18-hole, 4-hour match where they have a fivesome and only 2 guys can drive the carts.

And everybody kind of takes turns who gets to, you know, drive for a hole. And they, you really felt that with the way they ran their offense. It was like, oh, here's a, Here's a 4-minute Jaylen Brown stretch here. Oh, here, this is gonna be the Maxey stretch. The big thing I liked about Philly, which I think you could have predicted, but it was interesting to watch, where Embiid came out and then they played this fast lineup near the end of the second quarter with— it was LeBron and Brown and 3 guards basically. And they started really flying up and down the floor. And I think they're gonna be able to do that with certain lineups. And I think LeBron at this point in his career actually really likes playing that way sometimes. Jalen has always been pretty good at it. And then Maxey's one of the best guys in the league at it. Edgecombe obviously wants to do that. Simons, who I really liked when he was on the Celtics last year, and I, you know, they, they, they dumped him for tax reasons. I don't know where the other contenders were for him because I think he's a legitimate 3rd guard.

But I thought he was good too coming off the bench. And, you know, Maxey, one of the 7, 8, 9, 10 best players in the league at this point. So You know, this was a good night for the Sixers. I think they're gonna be fun. I think they're gonna be really up and down. I think there's, there's gonna be nights when you could feel it. There were some defensive lapses. I think Embiid on defense sometimes just isn't gonna move. I think they're gonna get really hurt on rebounding, especially when they do those smaller lineups. And we'll see how often everyone is happy. Like LeBron had 13 points tonight. And if LeBron is, his stat line's gonna be 13, 8, and 7 every game, it's probably the best for them, but I don't know if he's gonna want that. So there's some stuff to sort out, and this is why you can't get excited about game 1. With that said, really fun team to watch, and I, I can't wait to watch them again, and I had a good time. Um, 4th one, Knicks got the rings. 4th one on the 6-pack. This was the number 1 hell has frozen over in sports moment that was available.

And now it is either the Bills, Vikings, Browns, or Lions winning the Super Bowl. I think those would be the 4, which, by the way, Tampa versus Milwaukee is gonna be our World Series. Neither of them have won the World Series, so one drought has to end. It also led to a joke my buddy Jacko and I have been making forever. Whenever there's a bad World Series and they had to promote it, one of us would call the other. Now we have texts, but we used to actually just actually call each other and do the joke about what the Fox— commercial would be for it. So he texted me today, Rays, Brewers, Caminaro, Mizerowski, it's the World Series on Fox. I actually am excited for this World Series, but Tampa Bay, Milwaukee, um, good luck, Fox. Rays +148, FYI. I'm picking the Rays anyway. Uh, the Knicks got the rings. We'll see. I went under on them for the season because After you climb the mountain like that, it's gonna be up and down the next year. We'll see what the health is gonna be. No Mitchell Robinson. Drummond came in, looked great in the first half, looked terrible in the second half.

That's gonna be the Drummond experience. They're a little bit deeper, and I just think they have a big bullseye on their, on their heads night after night. You saw it tonight with Philly. That was a huge game for Philly for a variety of reasons, but then the next time, the next play, it's gonna be a huge game for the next team. And that's just, How it's going to go. I think that's— I still think they're going to be in the high 40s, and I don't think they're going to have home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs would be my pick. But they're fine. I actually thought they're going to win the game today. Brunson missed that little 8-footer with like 3 minutes left. I think it would have cut it to 2, and that was kind of the moment you're like, ah yeah, they're not going to win tonight. But they're fine. I'm not worried about them at all. Fifth thing on the six-pack: the 3 p.m. Eastern time, first game, Detroit versus Boston. So I had Blake Griffin, who's coming up next, and we were recording at 1:30 Pacific time, which I agreed to last week.

It's like, sure, yeah, it's before basketball, that'd be great. And I forgot that the Celtics were gonna be playing. So I watched the first half of the Celtic game. They looked magnificent. Paul George got— it got to the point my dad is sending me, Paul George, I always liked him, Tex. Celtics look fantastic. And then Blake shows up. We do the podcast you're about to listen to after the break and watch, hopefully watch, maybe watch and listen to. Finish the podcast and, and my producer tells me the Celtics lost by 8. And I can't say I was shocked, but I was definitely bummed 'cause it was one of those things where it just would've been the perfect way to start the season. They trade Jaylen Brown. Paul George looked awesome. And Paul George was actually awesome the whole game. I mean, he had almost 30 points near the end of the third quarter. What did he finish with? Like 37, 40? I don't even remember. But Detroit came back. Duncan Robinson, Javonte Green hit a bunch of threes. And Detroit, who got nothing from John Collins, who was terrible in that game and was one of their big moves.

But some of the other guys stepped up. Cade and Duran looked great together. Yeah. And they really cracked down on defense. And it was kind of an alarming Jayson Tatum game. And this is why you can't overreact after game 1. But Jayson Tatum was terrible. I actually liked a lot of the shots he took. They just weren't going in. And then I thought in the 4th quarter, he kind of panicked for him. Maybe he didn't panic, but you know what I mean? He started really pressing and did some weird stuff. He only went to the free throw line once. He was 6 for 23. He had 11 assists. But, you know, you trade Jaylen Brown, which I'm sure— I don't think he told the team to trade him, but I don't think he was shedding tears afterwards. And you could see from everybody's reaction since that trade, it seemed like it had kind of come to an end for him and Jaylen. But this is a different level of pressure now for him because there's not a proven next guy on this team that, you know, can show up in a game in Detroit for 25 to 30 points.

This was Jalen last year. Jalen loved playing Detroit. And Jalen was guarding Cade and was doing all these things and brought a physicality and a confidence, which when that's gone, now you're leaning on Paul George, who again looked like 2019 Paul George today. I'm not sure how long it's gonna last. And then guys that you're, you know, finger crossed guys. I love Peyton Pritchard. Some, some nights he doesn't have it. I don't know what nights he's gonna have it. Derek White, great player. Everybody would love to have him. I don't know if he's gonna have it quarter to quarter. All the centers, the lob threats, the offensive rebounds, that stuff can come and go. The 3-point shooting, you never know. And none of this works if Tatum's gonna play like he did today. And I don't think he will. He's not gonna go 6 for 23 all season. But You know, I didn't need to go online after this game to know what the online discourse was like. I could look at my texts. All my friends who don't like the Celtics who were teasing me after about Tatum. Oh my God, this is so sad.

You know, like sarcastic texts. Anthony, I'm talking to you specifically. I kept receipts as I told you. But yeah, this is— Jaylen is the security blanket that is now gone. On the Jason Tatum superstar bed, and he's gonna have to figure out he can't have nights like he did today. Needs to get to the line. They need to get in the paint in general. The one thing again, game one can't overreact. The one thing that is a little bit alarming: you watch teams like OKC and even San Antonio, and they just have multiple guys crashing into the paint, slashing kick, creating shots. And it was hard for the Celtics to get in the paint in that game. Now they're playing Detroit, who has Thompson and Cade and Durant, like a really smart defensive team. And Thompson's fantastic, and Thompson was going against Tatum a bunch of the times here. But, you know, they, they really— Pritchard is their only guy who can reliably kind of create shots, get in the paint other than Tatum. So when he's not getting in the paint, now you're just shooting jumpers and 3s, which stopped going in the second half, and that's how you blow a 22-point lead.

I'm not sure NBA leads even matter anymore until there's like 3 minutes left. This game was 72 to 50 with 20 minutes left. This game was 99-89 Celtics with 8 minutes left. They lost by 8. Detroit had a 23-0 run at some point. I just, I, I, it would seem like if you're live betting, you could just live bet anybody that goes down 15 or 20, but. Big picture, Tatum, different kind of spotlight this year. He's never had this before. And I was a little concerned. I didn't feel like he was getting by people like he normally does. And again, that might've been Detroit. So that's the one thing I'm watching. The other thing I didn't like was Mazzulla's just— I like Mazzulla, but I don't know, he coached the game today like it was a hockey game. Yeah. I think we had like 420 lineups in this game. And it was never— there was never a rhythm of a lineup that felt like it was out there for more than like 4 or 5 minutes. And I don't know, I just don't know that you win 4 straight playoff rounds that way. OKC's probably the closest to be able to get away from it.

Like even today, McCain was the one that finished the Spurs game. But I still feel like you need to know who your 5 are. That's probably Philly's biggest advantage. Yeah. Like, whatever happens with the bench injuries, who's playing or not playing over the course of 6 months, ultimately they know those 5 guys are gonna be together at the end of games, right? That's— that was the biggest strength of the Knicks last year. Whatever they got for their bench was a bonus, but they knew who their 5 was at the end of games. And I think the Celtics, A, they don't know who the 5 is. They started Jordan Walsh today, who I think played one of the least out of any, any swing. But they They're— they need to figure out it's probably Pritchard and White, and it's Tatum, and it's a center, and it's Paul George. But then maybe it's not a center, and maybe it's Tatum as a small ball center, and maybe Shireman needs to be out there. Maybe Pritchard doesn't need to be out there. These are decisions that you're just making game to game. And I think it's good for the regular season, and I still think this team will be in the mid-50s.

I, I, that was, I think, my favorite bet, 50+ bets for the wins for the Celtics. But when we get to the playoffs, they better figure out who the 5 is at the end of these games. My money would be on Shireman having a bigger impact as the season went along. Hugo was terrible today. Hugo had the unbelievable preseason and I think he only played 9 minutes today. It wasn't about the offense. Cade kind of abused him a couple times. Like he went in specifically to guard Cade and couldn't do it. So. Um, open— opening the floodgates for everybody going, oh, that's the guy you wouldn't give up in the Giannis trade. That's not the actual story of the Giannis trade. Just to remind everybody one more time, they made one offer for Giannis. They did not make a second offer. And that's what happened. It wasn't like, we're not putting in Hugo, but here's our other offer. They made one offer, and I don't think they really wanted Giannis. I hate to break it to you, but that's how it played out. And I think they really wanted Paul George. And you saw tonight, maybe they were right.

But we'll see. Anyway, that's the Six Pack. I can't remember if that was 6 or 5. Can't wait to watch basketball the rest of the week. I think I'm most excited to watch the Pacers and to see Haliburton back with Zubac. They're playing in New Orleans. That's probably my favorite one. But, uh, the NBA is back. I'm pumped. The Six Pack was brought to you by Michelob Ultra. They're not just a superior light beer. Michelob Ultra also determined to bring fans closer to the game this year with a chance to win courtside tickets. Because nothing beats standing alongside your favorite players as they celebrate the wins. Enter now at micklobelcher.com/courtside. Mick Lobelcher Courtside, 26 to 27, no purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at micklobelcher.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna talk a ton of basketball stuff with Blake Griffin, who is great. And then, uh, we're gonna take a break from that. And Peter Berg. So Blake and Pete coming up next. The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel.

It's gonna be the most rewarding NBA season we've ever had. Thanks to FanDuel. Thanks to the NBA because we're headed for an awesome season. Do you like centers making 35-footers with 0 seconds left in the shot clock? I do. You like half-court shots before halftime? Sure. Let it fly, man. That's what we're gonna be doing for this NBA season. Look out for FanDuel Rewards Club, exclusive offers, surprises, much more. The Wednesday night games, I like the Pacers in New Orleans. I like them to just lay the smackdown, get it going. I like the Pacers in general. I actually even them with OKC as a Finals bet. I think it's like 30-to-1. Probably my favorite long-shot Finals bet. Anyway, every week, check the FanDuel app to see what's waiting for you, and it could be something like the Pacers. Make this the most rewarding season ever with FanDuel. Download the app to get started. 21+ select states or 18+ DC or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by 7Up. All right, they've summoned Conspiracy Bill. He's here. Ever notice lemon is everywhere?

From lemon recipes to lemon-scented cleaning supplies. When it comes to lemon-lime sodas, why is lemon always first? There's a reason. A shadowy organization called the Alemonade. It's been padding the stats, keeping Big Lemon in the lead for decades. We should be doing a Wait a Second podcast about this, but the sip is about to be flipped. 7Up. It's fighting back. It's swapping lemon-lime for their new lime-lemon soda. You heard me. Now lime comes first. 7UP, flip the sip. Blake Griffin is here, TV host, former NBA player. All right, the first time we did something Grantland, I'm gonna say 2012, we did some stuff for— All-Star? No, you came, you came into LA. Oh, that's right. And we filmed some videos, including I showed you my dunk video from when I was in high school and you roasted it.

I remember that.

And that was it. And we've known each other ever since.

I forgot about the All-Star.

Might have been. I don't even remember.

But we also did something at All-Star. I thought— I can't remember what it was.

And we did something last year. We did a, we did a failed attempt to—

Yeah.

I tortured you.

It's Hollywood, baby. Yeah. What'd you tell us?

Well, we did— it was like a Greatest Games idea. And it was me, you, and Zach.

Who was the game great for?

Well, that's what I guess— I guess we still had to hash stuff out. So we showed you the Clippers game when you guys blew the big lead against Houston, when James Harden got benched, and then somehow you lost the 20-plus-point lead. And you hadn't watched the game since. And part of it was like, we're gonna do this game like a pseudo-documentary, but also like your reactions as we're watching in real time. And you started out with your body language like that, and by the end, you were like

this.

It's like your girlfriend broke up with you in high school. high

school. That was tough.

You were traumatized though. Yeah, you had to watch that. You don't watch your own stuff.

I'd watch film. Yeah, but never sat and like watched the complete like meltdown since the day after, probably.

Yeah,

you know, and then you see clips every now and then on social media that you just can't help but see. But tough.

Would you get those every once in a while? I always get those with the Boston teams where I'm like,

ah,

yeah, if you're—

my whole algorithm is just sports, so it's like you're bound to see You know, it's a nice reminder of your past failures.

I want to talk Clipper stuff. We have to mention The Step Back with Blake Griffin premieres today on Amazon. New episodes dropping weekly, YouTube and Prime Video.

YouTube and Prime Video.

How many weekly is weekly?

We're doing 14 weeks.

Goddamn, that's like a real run.

Yeah, it'll take us through like mid-January and then, you know, start working on season 2.

And then NBA on Prime tipping off second season Friday, 6:30 PM ET. Knicks, Celtics, Rockets, Spurs. You start using your hands when you're on that?

Yeah, I'm a big, like—

Do this?

That's a great point, Steve. Thank you.

The one-hand, two-hand?

Yeah. And you gotta pivot, 'cause I usually don't sit on the end, so I've learned to, like, you know, make sure I include—

Middle seat's tough.

Udonna sits here. When it's 4 of us, Udonna sits here, me, Steve, Dirk, Taylor Rooks down there. So it's, like, a lot this way, and I have to— always try to remember to include UD. It's things you don't think about.

Well, it's like the dinner table where you're in the middle of like a 10-person table.

Yeah.

And you— and you— it's like the Curb episode.

The wor— yeah, the worst is when there's 2 conversations going this way and you're just kind of sitting there.

You're like, ugh.

Just trying to find eye contact with somebody to carry the conversation.

I thought the show was good though. I'd like— and obviously having done some of those shows, Taylor was the key because she's an actual point guard.

She's incredible.

She was setting everybody up. You guys were comfortable. She just wanted everybody else to win.

Watching good, really good hosts like herself work, they make it look really easy. But then you also are watching, being on the desk and watching her get us in and out of stuff, read the prompter, come to us, da-da-da. Like, you're like, oh, this is like a— this is a very particular talent, and they are so good at it.

It's basically point guard.

It's like running an

offense, trying to figure out when you have to

That's what we refer to her as, our point guard. She gets us in and outta everything.

Yeah, and the chemistry was good. But you also, you had Dirk and Nash who have known each other forever.

Yeah, yeah. They're just hanging out.

Do you ever feel like, 'cause you did this on The Step Back, I saw the episode I saw, which was excellent, was the sports journalism show. Sports journalism. And you're talking about take culture. But you're on these shows and you wanna have takes, but you're also a player and you have to, you're gonna have, at some point you're gonna have to be harsh a little bit on people. But then there's that line of how far do I go?

I mean, I had to do it last year. We had a Friday night, we weren't even covering the game, but Ja Morant was in Memphis miserable.

I remember that.

And was kind of, looked like he checked out. And I, the beginning when I was like, I don't know if I want to do this, like having to talk about guys, I realized there's a, there's a way to do it, right? Like if a guy goes 3 for 17, they, I don't need to come on and be like, this guy's horrible. Like, No one wanted to have a better shooting day than that guy.

Yeah.

So it's not, it's not about, it's not about harping on somebody who played bad. It's about pointing out things that maybe he could do better. And, and there's a, I think there's a way to do it. And we sort of found that a little bit last year.

Yeah.

But I'm not, that's not to say we're not, we're definitely not shying away from being critical. But when it calls for it.

Yeah. Because ESPN fell into the habit before they got Inside the NBA, they would go to halftime.

Yeah.

And the guys would just pick which guy needed to step up.

Yeah,

yeah. Like, Blake Griffin needs to step up. 2 for 8.

Yeah.

What are you doing, Blake Griffin?

Come on, you got— come on, you gotta catch and go. Step up. Shoot it.

That was like the entire show, just them telling people to step up. That's why you had higher aspirations.

Yeah, I did, I did. The, the bar was, the bar was kind of low. Not for the TNT guys. Those guys, probably the greatest show in sports. Not only sports, but comedy too.

Yeah.

But they are— they're in a different stratosphere. But I think in terms of sports analysis, live, in-game, pregame, halftime, post, the bar was— I don't want to say it was low, but I think a lot of people have come up to us and been like, man, it's so great that you guys talk basketball. And it's like, that should be the most obvious thing that you talk about. Like, why are you not breaking stuff down more?

The pregame's tough. I've done those shows. Pregame's tough because it's like, I think so-and-so's going to have a good game, but you're talking out of your ass. You have no idea what's going to happen.

Who's watching? Like, most people aren't really watching pregame.

At this point, no. Yeah. I think in different decades, probably more.

Yeah. I guess East Coast too. It also being shooting here in Los Angeles, starting pregame at 3:30 in the afternoon, it feels like, who's watching? But at least it's like 6:30 on the East Coast.

The postgame's better for you guys though, because then you can play off what happened.

Yeah.

That was always the piece ESPN never understood. Like that, it's actually, that's gonna be the best content 'cause we just watched the game. Now we have opinions.

Yeah.

Now we can interpret what happened.

And halftime is, goes by like that.

Oh my God.

It's like you, you, you know, you might have 30 seconds maybe to get your point across.

Well, you're 5 people too, so it's— yeah. The danger with those halftimes is it turns into you finish talking. Yeah. And now it's Udonis. Yeah. And nobody's listening to anybody and there's just like, I'm waiting for Blake to finish 'cause then I gotta say my thing.

Yeah.

And that's just kind of the show. But I didn't feel like you guys were totally doing that.

We try not to. I mean, it's also— the show evolved. I mean, Dirk, Steve, and I had never done a studio thing before. Udonis had done a little bit with ESPN. Obviously, Taylor's Taylor. But so we were literally figuring out how to make this show as we were making it. Yeah. And it got so much— like, the very first show we ever did, they're like, we're up there at the desk 30 minutes before. They're like, 30 minutes to air. And everybody's like, oh, like writing stuff down. Like, so not speaking to each other at all except for maybe little things. Then you cut to like the last, last show of the, you know, in the playoffs, me and UD are like talking. They're like, 5 seconds. I'm like, all right, hold on.

Like, right. You know, that's when you know you're in a good spot.

Yeah. So much more relaxed. So this, this year I'm excited to like go in with that mindset of like, all right, we know kind of what we're doing now. Yeah. You know what to expect.

The overpreparing is the big mistake people make.

Yeah,

I would— when I was doing Countdown, I would have like 24 points for

a

20-minute show, and I have like, I'm gonna say that, and then you realize halfway through, you're like, I just have 3 points. Yeah, you just really sell those 3 points hard and wing the rest of it.

If you know, like, if you are prepared, you don't have to really have any points, and it's almost better because you just like, you can just free, free flow like thought off of somebody. Yeah, but like pregame, sometimes a little bit more structured, right? You gotta like

The producers have to be like, we're doing this, we're gonna roll video here. Can you talk about Ausar Thompson for a second?

Yeah. And you kind of have to have your space and all that, which I understand. But man, the best conversations are— honestly, the best conversations are green room. Sitting there with Dirk, Steve, UD. Those are legends who played for— had unbelievable careers. And I'm just sitting in there, you know, you're just sitting in there listening to them talk. You're like, this is— I mean, I talk a little bit too, but—

We had— the first year I did it was with Magic. And Magic in the green room was the greatest of all time.

Was he just sitting watching games?

Locked in? And he would watch everything.

Wow.

And he was really in it. And we'd have the ATVs.

What year was this?

This was the '12-'13 season. Magic was still doing the series? The year after the lockout, he was still doing it. Yeah.

Wow. I don't really remember that.

Yeah. So he would— he was just awesome in the green room. And then on TV, he's Magic, so he had to be more careful. But it was like, man, if— so we were always talking about, how do we get green room magic? And we got closer to green room magic as it went along, but there was always lines he wasn't crossing.

How was his analysis of the game that far removed? I know he's a brilliant basketball mind, but was he— 'cause you can kind of tell talking to certain guys, their philosophy skews a little bit more old school. Was he able to see the pushing of the envelope the other way with run-and-gun?

Oh, it was interesting 'cause the year we did that, that was when the league was running really starting to shift. That was like Steph's first year.

Yeah.

And the, the big thing was the Rudy Gay trade that year. They traded Rudy Gay for like Tayshaun Prince, who was pretty old. Yeah. And, you know, it was like one of those—

Oh yeah.

3 quarters for a dollar trade. But Memphis got better.

Yeah.

And we were arguing about it. We had a great argument on the show about it. And the Magic Wilbon side was like, Rudy Gay, that's who you go to at the end of the games. You can't trade a guy like that. And I was on more of like, the analytics say they're better. He's— they're better when he doesn't play. And it, it just felt like this moment where the analytics were coming, the 3-point shooting was coming, like a different style.

Yeah.

Something was happening that was different than what met when Magic played.

Do you think we've swung too far?

I do.

Yeah,

I do.

I agree. But I, I, I also, I'm not like a get rid of analytics. I think, I think that there's, there is a perfect middle ground and some teams have found it. But

you know who found it? The Knicks who won the title. Like when they needed 2-point shots, they got Jalen Brunson, 10-footers.

Okay. What was— is Jalen Brunson an analytics, like, let's go get him, that's our guy? Is that an analytics move or is that somebody truly knowing basketball? Because he is both. He is—

Well, he did it in the playoffs though. Yeah. When on Dallas. So there was an actual track record of him at the highest level being able to get points.

Like applying the analytics.

But anyone who thought 28 a game and being the Finals MVP and I mean, I think he—

nobody, nobody.

It's insane.

If somebody says they saw this coming, they're, they're lying.

I loved it when they got him.

Yeah.

But I also didn't think he could be the number one guy on a, on a title team.

Yeah, I thought—

because he did it in the playoffs. I was like, well, we've seen it. It's not like they're crossing their fingers.

What he does with his, with his, like, his skill set and his— what he gets out of, like, his Not that he— I mean, shorter, that was the big thing. Like, how can a shorter point guard do this? What he gets out of his skill set and his ability is incredibly impressive.

Well, one thing I was thinking with him and just with hoops in general is this 8, 9-month season and how much harder basketball is to play now. And these kind of outlier guys, like Brunson just never got tired, right? Yeah. It's almost like when you watch Messi in soccer.

Yeah.

These guys that are lower to the ground, whereas like you played with Chris, I always felt like by, by the time we got to like round 3, both of you guys, you could feel the grind of the season. Yeah. As the playoffs went along. For some reason, I don't feel it with him in the same way. And I don't, I don't know what it is. He's just the way he's built to the ground, how he is used to contact. He doesn't seem to get tired.

I'll tell you what, rattling off however many straight And also sweeping second round, sweeping third round.

Right, they already played like 19 playoff games.

Yeah, and it's a testament to how good they were, but it's also, that also really helps, you know, when you're going into the Finals.

Well, when we did that game, when we did that pilot show, and you were noticing how tired you were by halftime, and you were like, see, you were like, rewind that. Like, that's, I'm just tired there. Like, I have no legs from this point on in the game. I know I don't. I can watch it. But for Brunson, it doesn't really—

No. And he— I mean, he's a workhorse. I mean, he's got the ball in his hands so much, but he's great.

Who was the hardest guy when you played? This is such, like, a lame podcast question, but who was— 'cause I always feel like when people are trying to guard Brunson, they're so confounded by him and his herky-jerky shit, and it's big guys, small guys. Who was the guy in your era that was like that?

Zach Randolph was super hard. Like, guys that I actually guarded. Zach Randolph was— you knew he was going left, but he was also so strong. He also had the little rock, and he had the little jumper. But then he'd just get left, and then you'd be with him. Like, he wasn't blowing by you, really. And then he'd just— little bump, you know, over the top. LaMarcus Aldridge was really, really hard to guard.

Zach Randolph, you guys didn't like each other.

Yeah, we went at it.

There was a lot of—

We went at it. I mean, the Memphis guys, Clippers teams were— that was the other thing too. It felt like every single— first year of the playoffs, we went 7 rounds to— or 7 games against Memphis, lost to San Antonio. Second round— or second year—

And that was the lockout season, so you guys—

Right.

Yeah, that was like an insane amount of basketball.

And then we went 7 games with Golden State, and then went to Oklahoma City, had that collapse. And then we went— 7 games with San Antonio, played Houston. So it was like almost— but we were just— I mean, we were just—

nothing was—

didn't have much. Yeah, but that's the playoffs.

What did you think the best team was? We talked about this the last time I saw you.

That we had?

The '14 team or the '15 team?

That— the year we lost to— that year we lost to Houston, I thought was our best shot.

Yeah,

we like— that was the— remember CP got hurt game 7, came back, hit the floater over Tim Duncan. Then we lost. We— he—

And you almost died on the follow-up alley-oop. I went to that game. You literally almost broke your neck on that.

And I also wouldn't have gotten the tip because there was no time left. But, like, you know, you just crash into it.

I honestly don't know what you were doing. You were 5 feet in the air.

Well, so CP was— I was rolling. CP was going down. He shot that floater. So I was going for, like—

But did somebody undercut you?

It was— I think it was Danny Green. Not really undercut. He just came in.

But not intentionally.

Yeah. I think it was Danny Green.

Yeah, because that would've been classic Clippers if Chris made the greatest shot of his career, but you, like, broke your collarbone on the same play. It's like, here are the Clippers. Here we go.

Yeah, I think that was our best. And then CP had to sit out 2 games, or— yeah, with his hamstring or groin. And we went to Houston, stole first game, lost the second. CP came back and we were rolling. And—

Well, we talked about the— it's just really one of those stupidest results of a game. The things that had to happen for you guys not to advance with Brewer, Josh Smith getting hot. You guys go ice, ice, ice cold. Yeah. All-time ice cold. And it's just happened so much.

And it wasn't even like we were just jacking 3s when ice cold. No. It was like nothing was working.

It was among the weirdest sporting events I've ever attended. 'Cause the crowd felt like it was coming the entire 4th quarter. Yeah. Because that's the fan base. Now that same fan base, now they have no first-round picks for the next

5 years,

basically 5 years starting in what, '29? Or 29 through 33 this

year.

And they don't have their picks these next 2.

Yeah.

But so why— you live here still, watching from afar, what were you, what were you thinking watching the Clippers just completely get decimated here?

Um, like, you know, I've said this publicly a couple times now, like, I feel very bad for the fans because it's just like, it's really, uh, it's hard to use the word not fair, but like you know, something that's out of their control. I also feel bad for the guys who are just getting to that team, you know, the guys that got traded for Kawhi, you know, like a Brandon Ingram. I know he's banged up, but like, he's 29.

Right.

And like, you know, those— like, that's a very pivotal time of like, you're either on a team that can get to that next level or you're not. And like, you're— a year, a year or 2 years wasted, like, can alter the course of your, uh, career. So, um, you know, you feel, you feel bad for that. I mean, it's not like they're going to a team where, like, they have no post— they can't play in the postseason. Like, they can still be good. Ty Lue's a good, great coach. Like, they'll—

You think he's going to be there?

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, if I was him, I mean, if you're him, I guess you'd, you know, maybe want to go do something else.

It's tough because after— if you've won the title, You can't be like, I gotta go chase the title, 'cause you haven't won the title.

Right.

But he has won the title. He's got a good setup. And he's got a good setup and he gets to live in LA.

And like Ballmer's like, I mean, you know, if you're a, even if you're like a Clipper fan, like at least you have an owner who's really trying. Right. Like doing too much, but trying.

Did you make up with him or no?

Excuse me, I haven't, I haven't spoke to him. I haven't spoke to him since I got traded.

That was tough. For the people listening who don't remember or watching, I guess we're watching at least these days, but you signed a pretty giant extension, then they traded you 6 months later.

Yeah. But that's not the— getting traded is not the thing that, like, I guess getting traded does kind of hurt if you expect to be there, but it's not— you understand that. The thing that you hope is that there's a mutual respect in how it's handled.

Right.

I think that's what sucks.

Even after they're like, new contract, huge commitment, you're a Clipper, and then they trade 6 months later. I'm like, what the fuck? We just were talking about this. We were just at lunch.

Yeah. I mean, if you decide to go in a different direction, I think the thing that I said to Lawrence Frank in his office, because I had heard some rumblings, I was going in for a workout and I had heard some rumblings. So I go up and I try to try to have a conversation with him, and his assistant walks up— or I walk up and his assistant's there, and he looks up like he'd seen a ghost. He's like—

Oh, and that's when you knew?

Yeah. And so, like, the writing was on the wall. And then I come in, you know, I was like, what's going on? You know, well, a player of your caliber. And I'm like, no, no, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't— just, I just want to know. And it was like, yeah, you'll be the first to know. And then, you know, you see the Woj tweet, So, like, you're not the first to know. Like, that was the thing that hurt. And Lawrence and I have talked since then. And—

So when you hear rumblings, who are you hearing rumblings from?

Are you on your deep Reddit? One of my best friends is an agent, and, like, you know, people are talking. Whispers are happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there was no, like, there was no internet or social media rumblings.

I gotta say, I'm usually fairly wired in with stupid rumors like that. That one took me by surprise. Nobody knew. I did not see that one coming. I mean, my agent didn't know. Yeah.

You know,

that really came, it was like, what happened?

Yeah.

And also, I mean, the Clippers are such a weird franchise. They move to, they basically move to San Diego in 1978. I don't think they have a retired number yet. Pretty sure they don't.

No, no, no, they don't.

And so there was a, when you and Chris were playing together, I would've said like 2014 range, whatever, like the 3rd year where it felt like you had a chance. It just, I would've been like, I'll bet anything these 2 guys get retired. And that might have to be the kind of stuff they have to do over the next 5 years. Like, hey, let's play Griffin night.

It's just like, we want it.

Come on, Lou Williams night.

Remember, remember Lob City guys?

Yeah. Anybody? DeAndre Jordan, he is right here. They might have to retire like 12 of 'em.

Have you ever seen that clip? I think maybe it was the last game in the old Boston Garden where all the legends are on the floor.

I was there. Yeah. They did the, they did the bounce passes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I imagine that, but like, it's just and it's like, I can't dunk anymore.

It's guys from the '80s and '90s who tore their ACLs when they were on the Clippers.

Yeah. Michael Olowokandi.

Right. When you got drafted, I wrote a piece about the curse of the Clippers.

I remember.

And I was like, don't take this lightly. And then you got hurt like 4 months later and people were mad at me. They were like, why'd you do that?

Yeah.

I was like, I'm pretty sure I don't have the ability to hurt Wade.

I thought you were— this was gonna be an apology for writing that.

Well, I did feel bad. I literally did feel bad.

That wasn't it, unfortunately.

But that was laying out at that point, 33 years of Clippers history.

Yeah. I remember it was like, like the idea was like, do pull a Manning. Don't let them draft you. Like, don't, don't let the Clippers draft you.

Honestly, you could have potentially didn't. You, OKC would have been fun for you. You're from there. But I think it turned out more fun to probably for you to live in LA and have other opportunities.

I don't even, I don't even like think about like those. Memphis was 2. Yeah. Memphis was 2. Oklahoma City was 3.

Yeah.

Hashim Thabeet.

That was a tough one.

Yeah. Nice guy.

And Curry was in that draft.

Curry, Curry

was, and Minnesota passed on him twice.

Yeah.

It's one of my favorite drafts.

Minnesota passed on him twice for Johnny, Johnny Flanagan and Ricky Rubio.

And then the Knicks thought they—

Jordan Hill was in that draft.

Yeah. The Knicks thought they might get Steph Curry and then the Warriors were like, no, no, we're actually gonna take him.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. We, we like this guy.

Yeah.

Yeah, one of the weirdest drafts. Yeah, it's been a while.

I always think about too, like, Steph's, like, remember his ankle issues early on?

Yeah.

And him, I remember, I remember he signed his deal and it wasn't like the max deal. He signed his deal. I remember we were playing that. It was like the preseason game. Yeah, it was something, something low. I remember playing him a preseason game and I like, I, I was like, hey, congrats, man. And I could, you could tell he was kind of like, I don't think he was like super happy about not getting like, you know, right, what he probably should have. But like that then led to— not saying that's the only reason, but like then they're able to go out and sign, you know, they get, they get Iguodala, that, you know, they can go, they can go get these pieces. So it's, it's funny how

it was like in NFL and they have the guy on the rookie quarterback contract.

Yeah.

And it allows them to do all these other things. But the reason they did it was because of Stephon Sancho, which is why it's so tough to compare the different eras because like I've talked about this before. If Steph's playing in the 1960s, his career's probably 5 years 'cause they never figure the ankle thing out. And in 2009 through '13, they could actually figure it out and be like, you gotta do this, you gotta strengthen these muscles, wear these sneakers.

Wear the giant plastic braces. Seriously.

Yeah. Like, you have one injury back then, your career was over.

I think about that all the time too. It drives me nuts to think that, like, guys back then couldn't play today or guys now would go dominate. It's evolution. Why has everything in the world evolved but not sports? If we played back then, we wouldn't have access to all the things that we have. We wouldn't be playing the same style. We wouldn't be working on our game from a young age the same way. The game is different, so we would have been different. Those guys back then, they would have had all this stuff that we have now. I mean, it's a fun argument.

You've seen the sneakers, right?

Yeah, they're like, they're playing in Chuck Taylors.

My favorite are the sneakers, the riding, riding on planes where they weren't even first class. They're in like coach.

I think about the treatment, like the, the trainers.

They didn't have trainers. It was like Red Auerbach was the Celtics trainer.

He's like, tape it up. He's like

smoking a cigar, like putting cigars all

over there. This will help, kid.

Yeah, but they had No assistant coaches. Now you watch these games and there's like 13 assistant coaches. It was when I did, I did my book and it came out in '09. It was so hard to figure out how to compare the eras, but at least we didn't have the 3-point shooting thing. And now I feel like from 2010 on, I just feel like it's a different sport at this point.

Yeah.

And if you put like one of these teams back in 1965, people would be like, what's happening?

Yeah. This isn't the way the game was meant to be played. We don't do that here. They just get banned from the NBA.

Well, and they didn't

break— It's like, what kind of wizardry? This is witchcraft, and it needs to be gone.

Some of the guys had, like, the one-handed shots.

Even the set shots, they're like, yeah.

Well, that's what's funny watching Russell, where he comes in, and it would be like putting you back in 1956, just blocking everything in sight.

Or watching Wilt, like the clips of Wilt.

Oh, my God. So, Wilt's one of those that I actually think he might have been able to— dominate every single decade. Because when you watch—

Just as he was.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, don't get— don't even give him like the, the, like the new, you know, everything we know now. Like, he really might have—

he might have been like one of the 4 greatest athletes of all time when you actually watch the footage. You're like, holy shit.

The stories of him, like the high jump and like him like running, like sprint, like—

Yeah.

The thing that his, his athletic feats, it's like him and Bo. It's like those type of stories like Bo Jackson where you're just like, He did what? Right. And like, you don't know. I don't know. I mean, are they— I, I choose to believe they're true because it's my son.

Some of the video seems realistic.

For sure.

First of all, he had like these long, long legs. His legs were like up to here. He was strong as hell and he had these long arms and could do all this like stuff with the— you know, he's amazing. Poor Russell was like 6'8.5 trying to—

Yeah.

Trying to battle him.

But he also—

But was also one of the great athletes.

Yeah.

Who is the best athlete you've ever been on a court with?

Man, like guys like Russ and D-Rose were like in their primes, man. It was like having to like switch out on a pick and like not even switch, like switch, switch, like contain switch.

Yeah.

And how shifty they were. Um, I'm probably, I mean, obviously LeBron too, just like his, that was one guy though that like, As good as he was and as talented as he was, you were able to play physical with him. So I'm not saying I was going to get the better of him, but at least you could bump and hit and try to slow him down. And he didn't get as many calls. But the D-Rose, those guards to me that were so quick and so explosive, and you kind of couldn't touch them as much.

Yeah.

That was like a nightmare to guard.

I remember when those guys really started taking off, which was probably like your first full season when you actually—

D-Rose was like— he was like—

When he was ascending and Russ was ascending, seeing those guys in person.

Yeah.

And you'd actually worry for them.

Yeah.

I'd be like, oh my gosh, they're putting so much torque on their lower legs, and they're going 170 miles an hour into traffic.

D-Rose would be going this way and stop and go this way, with the ball in the blink of an eye. But also, like, if you saw, like, slow-mo clips, he's like—

Right.

He's like this far off the ground. Like, his shoulder seems like it's scraping the ground.

Didn't make sense watching it live.

Yeah.

Those guys, that was like a crazy class of athletes. I

mean, think about that era of basketball. You had LeBron in that phase. LeBron is apex. This was like end of Cleveland. So Miami still had Kobe playing, like, Like, you had the old, you had the young.

Duncan's still there. Plus you have the KD, that generation's coming up. It's pretty great.

James was like coming out of— coming out like in Oklahoma City, you know, 6-man.

Yeah.

And then going to Houston, like Steph and the Warriors were doing their thing. It was like a— that was a wild—

The lockout really fucked stuff up too, I think.

Yeah.

I think the amount of games— if you go back and you look at the schedule, how they crammed all those games.

Yeah, 66 from like December— from Christmas to—

Guys got hurt. And I think— I do think there was— probably some collateral damage. I mean,

yeah.

When did you start having— you had the one knee injury your rookie year, but when did you—

I had the one knee injury my rookie year, and then—

But you were healthy after that.

I played 82 my—

yeah.

And then I think I put— I— oh, then I played 66, so all game the lockout year. And then I still played a good amount. And then I had my first, like, real thing. I, I, uh, my elbow— I had to get my elbow drained. It got infected.

Right.

So that was like— that was what was a real bummer, is because like that wasn't an injury.

Yeah.

I had to have surgery on my elbow to clear out this infection. I missed 6 weeks. And then after that, I had a knee, you know, knee, and then toe, and, you know...

Just kept going.

Yeah. Never stopped.

I remember watching you when you were young, and it was so much fun in those early years with— because the Clippers, I had those tickets forever, and they were terrible, terrible.

Yeah.

They had one good year. And then you show up and the Lob City thing, it was like you couldn't go get food.

Yeah.

You just didn't ever, and you just wanted to dunk on everybody. Like you were going around like you were like a fucking, like, who can I get?

Who's bullseyes on?

But I would watch you in the pre-games and you would be like dunking in the pre-games. And I remember thinking like, man, you only have so many jumps. Somebody needs to talk to Blake. Be like, save some of these.

Where was the article about that?

I should have just walked out and been like, yo Blake, You have 62,000 jumps.

You wrote the article about not going to the— being, being aware of the Clippers.

Yeah.

Don't— you should've told me not to trust you so much.

Well, you were aware. The other thing that was crazy was the draft diary I did of the '09 diary. They ran a fact for you when you got drafted, like that your dream was to, to, I think it was host Saturday Night Live.

Oh yeah.

And I was like, I'll put the odds on that at 300,000 to 1. Now you have a late night show.

Yeah. I mean—

I underestimated you.

Yeah. Well, yeah, I think it was, also, like, you know, it's— I think back then too, it was like a little bit harder for guys to show their personality, you know what I mean? It was like you had to do like an ESPN feature, and even then when you're young, you're just like so— I was just so like in a shell, you know? It was like,

guard, we didn't have social media yet.

No,

you're basically doing a Sports Illustrated feature.

Yeah,

a 9-minute SportsCenter segment.

And you're also like always taught to like be like, take the game seriously. It's not, not that you're taught not to show your personality, but you're just like, you're so focused on like trying to be great that you're not like— I don't know, I wasn't, I wasn't nearly as relaxed, you know.

I felt like Kobe was the first guy who really started looking at how to shape things because it was like near the— after he won the last 2 titles, that was when he started. And I was one of the people when he started reaching out to different media people and trying to talk to people. And I, I just felt like he was aware of,

yeah,

oh, I can actually tilt perception. Then after he retired, he did the Yeah, Kobe detail thing.

Yeah,

yeah. But something shifted in 2010s. Now I think we have too much access to all these guys.

Yeah,

I wish we had a guy who just wasn't on Instagram and just was mysterious. I guess Shai's probably the closest.

Yeah, yeah. I don't have a feel for him at all. I mean, no, no, Wemby's the, the most mysterious.

You think?

Right? Because I don't— I mean, does he— he doesn't like—

I think he's embraced being a villain now. He's anti— He has. I mean, he's our— the anti-American villain we needed. He just wants to race in the Olympics.

Yeah. I mean, he will do like interviews and stuff, but like, he— I don't know. Do you see him on social media, Dylan? I mean, you see clips of him, but you don't see him.

So the stuff he does is like he plays chess in Central Park.

Yeah, yeah, I guess that's like, you know, like—

So I'm like, all right, there's definitely more here. You're right though, I don't, I don't know that much about Wemby.

No.

Um, there's other guys I probably know too much of.

Yeah.

I mean, in Boston, you saw it with Deuce. Like, Deuce became a character on the team. It was just the son of a player.

Dude, Deuce was almost on the court more than me.

Seriously. I mean, invested in Deuce now. I want to see where his career goes.

God, I'd kill for his playing time.

Well, they— you were a beloved Celtic. I know it was the tail end, but I, I think they would have kept you for years and years and years if you wanted.

I thought about it. I thought about going back, but I was like, it was, it was time.

What was your year? Was it the Finals?

'22, '23. No, after the Finals game.

Oh, there's that 7-game Miami loss. Jesus.

I thought we— I legitimately thought we were going to win that game. And when JT went down, There was still a 2, 3 minute period where Miami had, I don't think he, they really realized how, how hurt he was. 'Cause he stayed, you know, he stayed in and then it like, you, you saw it flip for them. They're like, oh, they're out. They're, they're without, you know, one of their guys, like one of their—

I went to that game too. It was right in front of the Celtic bench. It was clearly bad.

Yeah.

And you could see, I felt the same way. You could feel the Miami confidence building as the first quarter when I was like, oh, he's fucked up.

Yeah.

And that was it, the crack, because the crowd was like ready to rip the roof off in that game.

Yeah. And if JT hadn't been like healthy going into that next— if we had won that game going into the Finals against Denver, uh, it would have been— Denver was firing, so I don't know how that would have fared either. But yeah,

I don't know. I'm so scared of Joker. I mean, I'm

like,

I don't know how that would have gone. I just feel like I never would expect to win a series against him, and he's always seemed really comfortable against the Celts, but It all worked out. They won the next year.

Although

you could, you could have been involved.

Yeah, I know. Al, Al Horford is just such a great defender for a guy like that. There's not a ton you can do to Jokic to make him uncomfortable, but in terms of like defenders, like if you're not talking like just put crazy length on him.

Yeah.

Like Al Horford is probably one of the guys you'd be like, oh, that's who, that's who you'd want to like just, just bother him. Try to slow him down. You know,

I'm asking this not for a clip that would be aggregated, but because I'm genuinely curious. I felt the whole time through when they won the title that Tatum and Brown were really good together. And I'm sure you felt the same way playing with them, right?

Yeah. When I got there, you know, you hear the whole, like, JT and JB. I got there and it's just like, oh, they're fine. They're just 2 different people.

Right. Which most people don't understand. You could be on a team with somebody that you're not—

There was never—

going away with them after this season.

There was never a thing in any moment of a game or locker room, practice, traveling, where I was like, oof, that's not good. You know? It was just like, they are two— I don't wanna say opposites, but they're two very different personalities.

Yeah.

You know?

Do you think that stuff about— it's one of my conspiracy theories— the Conference Finals MVP and the Finals MVP, I still feel like if they split those, I think they're still on the same team. I swear to God, I really genuinely believe that. I think they're on the same team.

But don't you think this—

I think winning both of those fucked the whole thing up.

I mean, well,

and then as you, as you did on your show, like, once take culture gets a hold of stuff and it's constant,

yeah,

I think sometimes it becomes hard.

Yeah, it becomes very hard once the narrative gets— once it gets put out there, then that like narrative grows and grows and grows. But I also think the thing that hurt last, I mean, last year, I mean, JB having such a great year and them having like regular season success, you know, but I also like, and they won already. Yeah. It's also, it's a, this is a second apron issue.

True.

Like it's not, I don't, this is what I don't, I also think JB was probably tired of hearing his name in trade rumors every summer for the past, but also that's not really, it's sometimes it's out of people's control. But I don't know. I don't know if I'm on board with the— I see what you mean. If those Eastern Conference Finals and Finals MVP are split.

I think it's fine.

But who knows? But I think it added— it poured fuel on that fire for sure.

They played together 9 years, which is a long time. Yeah. I mean, I remember being on TV when you were playing with Chris, talking about Clipper stuff. I'm like, I don't know. I don't think that team gets along. And then all the Clippers people would be like, fuck you. Why are you saying that? What's your evidence? I was like, I don't know. My evidence is I know people around the league and I go to the games and something feels a whiff off. And I think now that all the years have passed, I think it's safe to say maybe it wasn't perfect.

No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't perfect by any means. But I also think, I've said this a lot, like our Clippers teams were much closer than we ever got credit for. I think year after year of like, And first couple years, we lost. We just lost. You know? Yeah. Like, we— the Memphis-San Antonio stuff. But then, you know, the Oklahoma City collapse, then the Houston collapse. Then the next year, I got hurt against Portland, and we lost. Then the next year— oh, sorry, me and CP both got hurt against Portland, and we lost. The next year, I got hurt against Utah, and we lost. You know, like, year after year after year, it, like, starts to, like, starts to wear on you as a group. 'Cause we, we had kind of the same nucleus for the most part. Yeah.

You get baggage. You get team baggage.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then it's hard to come back from.

Yeah.

Yeah. 'Cause the, I mean, I, I think the Spurs would've won in 2014, but I also thought you guys were really good that year. And the, the Sterling stuff made that whole playoffs just weird. And I, I think you're just adding this crazy additional stress. to playoffs that are always stressful anyway. And I don't know, is that the reason the OKC collapse happened? I don't know.

Yeah.

But I don't think it helped.

That year was like, that year would've been, I mean, that would, we had to go through, so we Warriors, then Oklahoma City, then we would've had to go through San Antonio, then you would've seen Miami in the finals. Yeah.

Miami, I think would've been okay because they were running on fumes at that point. Dwyane was like—

2 straight championships. Yeah.

Um, but I think San Antonio would've been hard. That team was on a mission.

Yeah, dude, that, that's, that's why I also feel like that year was so good for us because going into that San Antonio series, I'll never forget the, the last game of the season. We had, we weren't playing the final night and we had dinner all as a team together. We're watching games and San Antonio loses, I think to like Memphis. Was it Memphis? And they dropped from, we were the 3 seed.

Yeah, they dropped to like 6.

They dropped to 6.

Yeah.

And we're just like, what? You know, because that was— San Antonio's obviously still very, very good. This wasn't San Antonio on the way. And we're just like, oh my gosh. And that, that—

So you just knew it's a heavyweight fight in round 1.

Yes.

I mean, it was one of the best round 1s ever.

We were so locked in where like, you know, you'd have a turnover, something would happen, and we were just like, boom, get back on D. You know what I mean? Like, they score, all right, we gotta go back at 'em. Like, we were just so locked in because you, that, the San Antonio Spurs brought that out of us and it brought it out of teams. Like, you know, you have to play as perfect a basketball as you can and the things that you can control. And that was like your reactions to things or like your resolve, your resiliency.

Yeah.

Uh, and that's why I felt like when we beat them, it was like, oh, like we locked in and we, like, we found another gear and then it all went away.

It's the greatest win in probably Clippers history, just beating that team in a series. I think it's gotta be number one. I also revere Duncan.

I mean, you, I do too.

You went against him most of your career. He was just on one leg. One of his legs just stopped working in 2009 and just didn't matter.

Yeah. He just put the giant brace on and was just like, yeah, it's all right. I'll just keep— and he also, it's not like he was just out there. He was like blocking. He was still playing defense at a high level.

He made first team All-NBA one of those years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He was, he was, I should have put him in really hard to go against, but I also didn't have to guard him a ton. Um, but he was, and he was, like you said, he was on one leg and he was still really, really good.

That's my biggest thing that triggers me with, uh, all-time discussions when he just gets dis— he gets discounted now because—

Not to me, but I agree. Yeah. He,

he, you, you get it.

He,

because people will go on his basketball reference and be like, eh, He's 20 and 10 for the second half of his career. It's like, okay, cool. When— if he needed to score 30, he would've scored 30. He totally understood how to win games.

5 championships.

Do you know that he never— I don't think he ever won less than like 54 games or something. There was some crazy—

Yeah, I remember seeing a stat.

Like a 730 win percentage.

Yeah.

And it's not like everyone's like, well, he played with all those Hall of Famers. All right, in 2003, like Manu and Parker were puppies.

2000— so '99 they won, 2003 they won, 2005 they—

'99 was Robinson.

Yeah.

Yeah.

2003, 2005.

Like, he, he didn't really have another All-Star on the team. But yeah, anyway, I'll defend him.

He was— he's, he's the best power forward of all time.

Basketball is back, and thank God. This year you can play on FanDuel everywhere. That's right, everywhere. This season, FanDuel is rewarding you wherever you are based. So we're gonna talk about a few hotspots and make some predictions. Prediction number 1, the team I am most excited to watch in the state of California is going to be— wow, I hate that this is true, but it's the Los Angeles Lakers. So I'm excited to see what kind of Luka MVP chase season that they, they launch. And, uh, they're gonna be a lot more fun to watch week to week, game to game, I think, than either the Clippers or the Kings or the Warriors or basically anyone in California. So by default, it's the Lakers. Team I'm most interested in watching in Texas? It's gotta be San Antonio, but I think Houston is gonna be the one that I have my eye on to exceed everybody's expectations. And then which Florida team will have a better season, Orlando or Miami? This was really tough. Their over-under was right around, right around the same number. I think I'm more interested to watch Orlando because I actually like the coach that they got this year and I like their players.

So I think I would rather watch them. than Miami. Also, who wants to watch the half-filled Heat arena? No thanks. Anyway, we have an amazing season ahead, and if you are in one of California, Texas, or Florida, make sure you check out FanDuel and you can get in the action. You know, at DeMora's Pizza in Malibu, which I think is still there—

DeMora's?

DeMora's Pizza on PCH. They used to have—

Down by like Point Dume?

Yeah, it's like closer to Cross Creek. They used to have this picture of Sterling, the white party Sterling, and you were in the picture. And I always thought it would be— I always thought about stealing it for you because I liked you. Just be like, let me get this off the wall.

People have seen that picture. Yeah, yeah. People have taken pictures.

You're in a white suit and Sterling's there. And, um, but yeah, you've seen some weird stuff in LA. And you were— you made friends with a bunch of different celebrities and comedians. Like, I don't know, you kind of bounced around different—

Yeah.

Different worlds.

Yeah. Well, LA was like such a, like, weird— it was also, it's the Clippers too. So it was like you weren't getting, like, you weren't getting like the Lakers celebrities, right? You know, we had, we had our Clippers celebrities.

Um, Billy Crystal.

Yeah, Billy.

Jim Goldstein, who's a celebrity for all teams.

Jim. Jim, man, the guy was so dedicated.

The creator of Will and Grace?

Yeah. Wow. David. Frankie Muniz, but he lived in Phoenix or Scottsdale, somewhere in Arizona.

It was tough. Wasn't a teaming group. Meeting him was cool. Yeah.

It was cool.

Um, but yeah, you then you got in the whole comedy scene.

Yeah.

And you got to know all those people. And at some point I was like, he's— something is going to happen with him after his career. I just thought it'd be a podcast.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, obviously I like podcasts, I consume podcasts, but I also felt like there's something— I don't know. I've always been a huge late night fan. Like I said, Saturday Night Live being the thing, any comedy. But there's something about that style that I just always loved.

So when athletes would get asked to host, you would just get pissed?

No, not necessarily. I don't get pissed. I just want them to do well so that it doesn't become a thing.

It's interesting because athletes are trained to not— you have a natural ability to calm yourself down. No, you, you can calm down your nervous system.

Yeah, yeah.

Playing in front of 20,000, but then you go on that, you walk out and you have cue cards and you've got to deliver a monologue. Like, I would imagine it's completely different pressure.

Well, the first time I did stand-up, I remember people being like, well, you know, even comedians were like, well, you mean you play in front of 20,000 people? Is it— and I'm like, this is, this is terrifying. This is— first of all, you're out there. This is a sport you've done your whole life. You're out there with teammates. Other people are on the court. There's so much to look at. You go up there, even in a— it was maybe a 120-person theater the first time I ever did it. Terrified.

I don't know how they do it. I've talked to a bunch of them about it. I just don't get it. It's like they need it.

Yeah.

It's like a fuel for them. They need the energy and the chaos of it.

The adrenaline you get. when you get off stage is— there's nothing I've done that's been comparable to like hitting a game winner. Like going up and crushing on stage and then getting off, there's nothing. I've never been able to feel like that same like adrenaline rush that you get from like hitting a huge shot at the end of a big game.

So your show that you decide to do, you want to do topics,

right?

A little modeled after the Jon Oliver show, but each show's about something. You can tape them ahead of time.

Yeah. I mean, eventually I'd love to get to like where it was— it's, it's a little bit closer, like shoot-to-air dates. Um, or like if it was like more weekly, it would still be like the whole idea why it's called The Step Back is because it's like, it's not, it's not reactionary to like what, you know, what just happened last night and we're going to talk about it.

Yeah.

There's so many shows that do that. So many podcasts that do that and do it really well. I wanted to like take some of these things that sometimes we don't think about as much that are affecting sports. And not even all sports. I think we have an episode on subsidized stadiums, and that's affecting taxpayers.

Right.

That is a situation that has never, not once, ever really worked out for taxpayers. Now, it works out if you're a huge fan of the team and you get to see games more often, but as far as the cost of living and expenses for everybody, that's That's a— it's a real thing.

I did a thing about that when I had my HBO show, The Promo, and I did make billionaires pay for their own fucking stadiums.

Yeah.

And it got cut out, and I was like, what's going on here?

Yeah.

It's like, I'm just trying to—

yeah,

I just don't want billionaires to—

Just trying to make a bunch of billionaires mad.

I'm just trying to— I mean, come on.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, those topics, having, having done a show like where you have to come up with, all right, what's our big thing? It's funny how there's less topics than you think, like those big picture ones that are really fun to dive into.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Like, I, I like the way you did that sports journalism one. I thought was really cool because it was coming from— it was way different if it's coming from me because I'm part of the whole world. Right. But for you, it's like you're an athlete, former athlete, but you're able to be— you just bring a different credibility. So when you're making fun of Stephen A.,

yeah,

I thought it was way I thought it was way more fun. If I'm doing it now, we're just having a rap beef, and we're going back and forth. But when you were imitating him and Tyrese Haliburton, I was fucking dying.

Yeah. It's, uh—

You know he's going to come at you now.

Oh, yeah. I know. I can't wait.

Blake Griffin.

I can't. I can't. My brother.

You're going to be doing this.

You didn't want to do this.

Yeah. I don't know what made you think.

I have been around for a long, long time, and you're not getting rid of me.

You're gonna be gone and I'm still gonna be here.

Yeah, he's definitely— I

know, the move for him, he should zag the other way and be like, that was really funny, I enjoyed what Blake did.

I know, if he did that, I'd be like, damn it.

God damn it, why did he have to do that? Shoot. Yeah, you would skip. But you were doing a whole thing about the embrace debate thing, which we've always, you know, from Grantland and then The Ringer, like trying to figure out how to talk about all this stuff, how to come up with angles, but also try to be fair, I think is always the test.

That's okay. So that's That's the real thing. There's nothing wrong with these. I watch them like debate shows. It's great. The problem is when you just start saying things and one, they're not true, or two, you're just saying them, you don't even believe what you're saying.

Saying them for the reaction. Yeah.

And it's like the thing, sure, your producer could come in here and say, hey, we want you to talk about this. And me and you could figure out a side. We could do it. It's not hard at all. And that's—

But what if we're on the same side? Then it's like, no, you have to take the shitty side.

Yeah, but that's the problem is if we are on the same side, one of us will take the other side. That's how those shows work. And to me, that's like— I don't want to say— I'm not trying to act like this is a massive problem and it needs to be corrected. It's fine. Those can still exist. But so we also need to keep a space for real sports journalism. Because it is, it's important.

Nash is one of the most— I've known Nash for a long time. Nash is one of the most measured— he's definitely not a take guy.

No, no, no.

He is kind of calculating all of the different pieces of a topic at the same time and is really smart with it. And I think especially like some of the stuff he had to deal with on those Suns teams, which is when I got to know him.

Well,

also different personalities, different styles of play.

Also coaching the Brooklyn Nets.

Well, and then you have that. He's been really diplomatic about that since.

Yeah. I mean, he's not the type to go scorched earth and throw people under the bus.

No, but he was scapegoated

for

a weird personality situation.

That is a— that was like, you go— that is a such a hard team to coach. Think about that roster. I mean, myself included. Like,

were you on— you were on the '22 Celtics or '22 Nets? You were on the '22 Nets.

'21-'22 Nets. Right, right, right.

So that was when the Celtics swept. Tatum just took it to KD.

Yeah, that was—

that was— Tatum was like— that was his arrival series, dude.

Watching that series was, uh, the first 2 games He's guarding KD. Yeah. He's scoring at a, I don't know what he averaged, but he was high 20s.

We're running our whole offense through him.

And, and guarding high level. Yeah. Like playing hard, playing every position, switching, taking it, you know, sitting down on, on Kyrie, like Kyrie's dribble. Like he was doing, I was like, oh my gosh, he, he is unbelievable.

Yeah. That's why I laugh when Tatum takes shit for anything. It's like, as a 2-way player, first of all, you make 4 straight First Team All-NBAs. That means something. But As a 2-way player, I don't think people realize. Since he's come in the league. Oh, and rebounds.

Yeah.

He has 10+ rebounds a game.

Has anybody been more scrutinized and also won a championship more scrutinized since he's been in the league? Guys get— I mean, you guys get a lot of scrutiny.

Honestly, I don't think so.

It's crazy. I mean, he's been so successful and like, not just—

Well, the Olympic thing didn't help.

Yeah.

That was— that's really the— the not winning the 2 awards and then the Olympic thing, and that just put the spotlight

in the same summer.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah,

yeah,

yeah. That, that— I don't know,

it's a weird one because it's, it's hard to just say this, but I really do think like that Game 7 Miami, I was watching him the whole warm-ups and my dad and I were there and we were like, my God, he's got like a look on his face like I've never seen him 100%.

And

he came out, and he was like guns blazing, and got hurt within a minute. But that game could have been like the game for him.

He caught in the corner and ripped baseline, which was like the— sorry, he turned baseline, and it was like, yes, he's not settling. He is like— and I saw the same thing that you saw. JB was the same way. Our team was the same way. Like, after we rattled off 3 straight, the D. Rose— I mean, sorry, the D. White tip-in, at the, at game 6 in Miami, it was like, I, I, I didn't, I wasn't like, oh, we are 1,000% winning this, but I was very confident going into game 7.

So, so just one of the weirdest series of all time just to have one team win 3 and then the other team in the next 3 is just so unusual.

Yeah.

For any of this stuff.

Yeah.

So what else do you wanna do with the step back?

See, like I, like I said, I want to get closer to Like being able to like have episodes going and be able to—

Are you going to do like interviews and stuff?

Not really. I mean, we might bring— if it works, if it adds to what we're doing, but it's not a— we're not basing episodes around, hey, we got to have a person come in this week and we have to have them talk. I love doing like the sketch at the end.

Yeah, but you could do this until the cows come home.

Yeah, I just— I don't know. Like for right now, what the show is right now, and we truly were we were making this— we were figuring out how to make this show. And there's our— just being, you know, an athlete, you are just taught to, like, self-evaluate immediately. And, like, now seeing all the clips and, like, even after every day we'd film, like, I was just like, okay, I could do this better. I gotta do this. And so I'm super excited for season 2 'cause I'm like, we can make this better.

You're good at reading the teleprompter.

Dude, that— well, that—

Teleprompter's intimidating.

I was on my iPad at home, like, just loading random things into my iPad. and I would put it right there and just read.

You had to take your time?

I did. Yeah, I did. I started out really slow. And then the big thing too, I would speed up too much when we were tossing.

You got to remember to pause.

You got to remember to breathe. I would just start going and just read all those words. And then we had to— in editing, we had to mute out some of my— because I would get going and then I would have to take a big breath. So, yeah, I don't know. That show for me is like, it was so much fun to do and it will evolve.

I like that you tried it. I don't feel like people try shit enough just in general.

So I'm glad you took a swing. Yeah, I think the easier thing as far as work, it's not easy doing a podcast, but as far as, I mean, it was like we wrote scripts and then we're editing and I'm doing teleprompter work. I feel like fulfilled from doing that, you know, like putting everything into this one thing. And if people like it, great. If not, I, I— it is one of those projects that I'm like super proud of.

What's your hottest take for the 2026-27 NBA season? I don't want to step on your Friday Amazon Prime,

but

do you have like a team you like either way less or way more than everybody else, or a player or a situation?

Well, I don't know everybody's— I, I, I'm So interested to see so many teams and how they work out. The Indiana Pacers.

That's my favorite team too. Are like really— Super team. Yeah.

Dude, like Zubac and Tyrese coming back. I, now it does depend a lot on like how Tyrese feels. Yeah. Especially early on. Um, but man, like Siakam, Nisqy, like they, they, they still have like some really good players. And I think Rick Carlisle—

Their over-under was 43.5. I, I couldn't, I didn't understand it. I thought to me they were like a possible 1 seed.

Yeah, but that, it also all depends. That, that 43.5 really depends on how they get out of the gate. Right. It's like, is Tyrese, like, is he back back? Is he, is it gonna take him? Yeah, it does. But like, also

you, like, 17 months for him since the injury, 16 months.

Preseason can be like, so, like, it can really be fool's gold sometimes. Not in terms of like, he looks good, but like that going from like playing every other day.

Yeah.

And like, I don't know their schedule. I haven't looked at their schedule, but like, the travel and this and that, he's going to be good. But is he going to be—

6 months consistently good to be a 50-win team?

You know what I mean? Because he's going to be what makes that team go.

Do you see— are you on the, I see problems with the Philly situation, or I see upside? Because I'm more on the problem side.

I honestly, I think I see more upside. I, I'm, I'm, I just, those other guys have to really figure out how to play with those guys. I don't think it's necessarily as much of this thing where it's like, well, JB wants, needs the ball in his hand. Tyrese, LeBron, they will hopefully figure that out. And if, as, as long as they're like, hey, like whatever it takes to win a championship. And then JB having won a championship, LeBron having several. Yeah. And being his career being what it is, like, It does sort of point to like, all right, like, let's just, let's get it done. Now, you know, knowing some of these players, you might, people might argue the opposite of that. But like, if, if LeBron's going there for the minimum, it's like that, that truly is your best chance to win a championship out of the teams he was looking at. Like, you'd think that like guys are gonna want to try to lock in. Now it's like—

Or he had nowhere else to go.

Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah.

But like, I mean, he might not have. You know, like, but that is other options fell by the wayside.

And he's not going to go to like San Antonio, Oklahoma City. He's not going to go to them.

Should have gone to San Antonio. That was what I was advocating this summer. I mean, they signed Tobias Harris and it's like, well, why didn't you get LeBron James?

That, that media circus would be—

Well, that's probably why San Antonio didn't want to do it. It's like, well, we had the Wemby circus and now we have the LeBron circus.

Yeah,

I, I said this already in my pod 2 weeks ago. I really worry about situations, and I don't really care. I'm a Celtic fan. Like, I wouldn't be more excited if they didn't do that great. But I, when situations where people are at weird points of their career for the situation, you know, that's when I, that's when I wonder. 'Cause like, Vijay Edgecombe's in his second year.

Yeah.

And he's gonna have to sacrifice on this team, right? And then you have Tyrese who's like about to become maybe one of the 7 to 10 best players in the league. But now he has to pull back. And you have Jalen on his own team. You have LeBron as LeBron. And then you have Embiid, who's this huge wild card. When he— I haven't seen him sacrifice anything. When he plays, he's gonna shoot.

Yeah.

So I just wonder how that all fits together.

I, uh, I, I— it's completely valid, and there's the— that's the reason people are questioning it. I also— then to play like the other side of it, it's like, well, Embiid hasn't gotten to the Conference Finals, and it's like, at the end of the day, especially the older you get, you want to get that monkey off your back. You don't want that to be the thing. And it's like, so why wouldn't he be willing to—

Well, what else is in there from a— I guess that would be a bigger question for me is, could he reinvent his game, not shoot as much, and just be like, oh, I'm going to be a defense rebounding guy? We've never seen him do that.

You wouldn't want him to be just a defense rebounding guy. You'd still want to be utilized. so skilled and he's massive. He's huge. So I don't know. All those things.

Somebody's giving up shots. I'm just interested to see who it is.

I just like, I don't know, maybe it's just like the optimistic part of me that I'd prefer them to— it'd be great to see them be good.

I would rather they were entertaining to watch than one of those, like what the Rams are like right now. You're like, oh man, this is depressing.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. I don't like this. You don't want that.

Yeah.

Especially like, I mean, as LeBron's like, you know, figuring out what he's doing next. Like, you don't, you don't want like, you don't want the last year to be depressed. If it is, who knows? He might play 5 more years.

I would say, I don't think this will be his last year.

No, but like, you know, so if this goes bad, like, then what happens?

Did you think about, oh, we have time. Did you think about like just hanging on for 2, 3 more years being like the greatest vet ever and getting in there every once in a while? Or are you just like, I know, I know I'm done?

No, I gave, I gave like real thought to it.

Because I know they wanted you to come back.

Yeah, had a chance to go back and I just like, I don't know, man. I like the one, for one, my kids being here, being, you know, being away from my kids and like they're just, we're getting to the ages of 2 of like those like

missing

games and like you're like, It's tough no matter what age. But, and then on top of that, it's just like, man, dude, I had, I had 9 surgeries in my career. You know what I mean? Like, it felt like I was— I would go, I would get to practice like 2 hours early and do all my stuff to be at, to practice. And then I would go home and like eat, take a quick break, and then I would be doing stuff for, you know, to like get ready for the next day, the next game or whatever it was. Yeah. It was like truly like, It was a grind, and I loved it. I loved my time there, but it was just like, I felt like it was my time.

Yeah, 'cause sometimes I think about that watching him be— like, watching you, 'cause I was lucky enough to go to a bunch of Clipper games. So I saw you when you could jump through the gym. I saw you when you could— your head could hit the gym, you couldn't jump through the gym anymore. And then you started the mid-2000s, your game started to change. You got the 3-point shot. You still had the athleticism. not the same, but you could summon it. You'd spurts, and then you could kind of see your body was starting to break down.

Yeah.

Like when you watch, it's like, oh, he's starting to really try to—

After that year in Detroit, man, I was just like—

The first Detroit year was the last year where you looked like mostly you. You were like 25 and 10 and 6. Like, you had a great year.

Yeah.

But then it could— it felt like, oh, there's a physical toll now from all this stuff.

Yeah.

And I wonder, we're close to that Embiid point. And I don't know if it's gonna be this year or next year, but I feel like we're really close now.

Yeah, that's what I mean. He's just so, he's so big and he's so skilled that like, if he's willing to, I mean, I think he can, he can.

I just wonder, is he gonna have the spring anymore? Is he gonna be grounded? If he's grounded, because even the offense—

Does he need the like spring spring?

Maybe he doesn't.

He needs his body to steal.

He needs that defense.

Yeah.

And he needs it for the rebounding where the guys are jumping twice and he's jumping once.

Yeah. But then again, man, I mean, it's certain bigs that he's playing against. Yes. But he, dude, he is, he is massive. Like seeing him in person for the first time, I was like, oh, oh, he's huge. Because at Kansas, it didn't look quite the same. And then he didn't play for his first 2 years. And then when he was like his rookie year and then his second year, you're like, my God, dude, this dude is—

And I did the draft, his draft. for ESPN, he was clearly had to be the number 1 pick. And then he got hurt like a month before and it fucked it up. But I even went to a workout. I was like, oh my God, this guy's gonna— I don't even know what this is. But it just like, he was snakebit from the get-go. But we'll see how many—

how

much he has

left through the process. That's huge. I mean, like, there's— that's what's— I can't remember a year where it's like kind of this wide open, but also like there's so many question marks. about so many different teams.

Well, you have 11 teams in the East that think they can make the playoffs, like, for real.

Yeah.

And then you have the OKC versus San Antonio thing.

Where are you on Charlotte?

I was in, and I didn't like the injuries to start the year 'cause it felt like— although apparently Khan and Coby White and those guys, like, started practicing again. But I feel like somebody in the East is gonna go 2-9 to start the year and be like, oh my God, we're 2-9?

Yeah.

And then you, like, almost can't climb out of it 'cause you're gonna need— 46 wins. I'm higher on them the most though, because of the 3-point shooting. Are you high on them or no?

I, I am. I, I also, I like, I just like everything they kind of have going. Like, they've really like made it clear that they're, they're getting a certain type of guy.

Yes.

And they are setting like a foundation. But it is, it's just with the East being the way it is this year, you're just like, I, that's the thought. It's like, man, if they start out slow, like, that's the difference in being

Could be Miami too. Like if Giannis misses 16 games and they go 2 and 14 in the 16, all of a sudden you're looking up.

I try to do this thing at the beginning of the season where it's like, okay, let's, let's take health out of it. Which like, because we just don't know. And we know it's going to be there. Like we know there's going to be health problems, but let's take health out of it. Like I like that Miami team. Like I—

A couple questions. Well, Klay, so I went over on them and I thought they were a playoff team. Clay was bad in the preseason, and 2 teams have given up on him, and that made me nervous.

Yeah, I also think a guy—

'Cause they need him, 'cause they need his shooting.

Yeah.

They don't really have a lot of shooting, so they actually kind of need him to be good, and I don't know what he has left.

Yeah, he's gonna be put in a lot of actions defensively too. And I think when you've gone through that many surgeries and injuries that he's had, like, I can't speak for him, obviously I haven't had But I, from personal experience, it's so like up and down with how you feel. And it's not like, oh, I feel terrible, I can't play.

Just wait till you hit your 50s, just in general.

Just getting out of bed, it's like, ah, I don't think I can play today. I can't, I can't record this episode today. Ow. Um, that's where it's like, for, you know, and he's an unbelievable shooter, but like, you know, when you, when you don't, when you can still play, but you just don't feel great. Yeah. Like that's when, like, I think that's like the volatility of like, you know, shooting percentages.

Yeah. If I had one do-over, I was under on Detroit and I had Miami higher than them. And I think I would flip that 2 weeks later because the, the big thing, and we're ironically recording during a Celtics Pistons game.

Yeah. By the way, can we, can we, can we get a—

I wonder, I wonder if we actually, I'm going to look at my phone.

It was a What?

They lost.

Celtics lost?

Lost by 8.

No.

Yeah.

They were up 14 when we walked in here?

Yeah.

Wow. What? Okay. All right.

I gotta go.

I gotta go. I'm gonna go.

It's really—

I'm gonna go back and watch them on my drive home.

Oh, great play. Um, but yeah, I was— I, I— so it turns out my instincts were correct. Like a half Clipper fan comes in, they're lost. I'll get to go home and watch that on demand.

Are you hot? So you took the under on Detroit?

I just thought, I thought just the rest of the conference was better.

Yeah. The rest of the conference.

And last year, the rest of the conference when everybody was tanking, it was a mess.

Yeah. I don't, I mean, they, they, I don't, I don't necessarily have them going number one or being the one seed, but I just think, first of all, Cade is unbelievable.

And they're tough. They're a good home team.

Yeah. JB has been believing.

They have the defense thing.

I wonder, I wonder what the exit of, of Isaiah Stewart does to their mindset. 'Cause he just, he's like,

yeah,

he's like, he would, he, he was like the, not the mascot, but he was like the, he was the guy that just got everybody going. So I, I just wonder if like that changes anything. Not that they're gonna be like soft now, but like, I don't know. That's a, that's an identity guy and he, He bought—

they had numbers before for any sort of altercation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's just less people in the group now.

Although the video that came out of him and Eubanks in the tunnel, I was kind of like, oof.

Yeah, that was—

lost a little bit of the, uh, lost a little bit of the lore.

He's gonna throw a harder punch to somebody else coming out.

Tommy, first game, he's gotta just go. Just, just knock somebody out. He's got to get that back. 20-game suspension. Yeah, just, just eat it and just get your cred back and let's go from there.

Who'd you have, OKC, San Antonio?

In the last—

No, just for this year.

Oh, this year.

If you had to pick one.

Oh, that's like—

Because that's the toughest debate of all this stuff.

I've been like saying—

I'm on OKC this year.

I've been saying Oklahoma City. I, I, I want to—

I wonder if we had the same reason.

Uh, were you, was it, was it, was your reason, well, first of all, I think if Jalen Williams, if J Dub can just be healthy.

They didn't have their second best guy last year.

He was, he was just in and out and in and out and just like inconsistent because of that, because of those injuries. If he was like half of what he was the year before, I think they beat Oklahoma City. I mean, I'm sorry, I think they beat San Antonio in the Western Conference Finals. And then to me, San Antonio, Dillon Harper. If Dillon Harper goes to like the, that next level.

But that goes into the situation discussion before.

Which one?

He's ready to play now.

Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's, is the team ready for what he's ready for? You know?

Yeah.

Like that, I compared it to the Kobe in the late '90s. Not that he's gonna be Kobe.

Right. Yeah.

But Kobe had this moment in the Lakers where it was like, whoa, we really have something here. And then by the third year, they're like, all right, we have to trade Eddie Jones. This is, we got, this guy now has to, he's our second best guy.

I mean, dude, if you're going, if, if this year and he's, he makes this jump and he's finishing every game, it's like you, you, you gotta give him the, the reins as far as like ball handler, finisher role.

I'm sure you've heard what the, I'm sure you've heard the same stuff I've heard about the Knicks were kind of relieved that he wasn't unleashed in the finals last year. Like they're like, dodged a bullet.

Screaming that at the end of games. Give Dylan Harper the ball.

Couldn't stay in front of him,

dude. And he, he also makes good plays. Yeah. You know what I mean? He's strong enough. He gets to the rim. Like, he reminds, like, his, his, like, there's like a little bit of Cade similarities and like, there's just the strength as far as like with the basketball and him being able to move, but his shiftiness is, is, I mean, he shot the ball pretty well. Uh,

he's got some 10 feet from the basket stuff for a guard, that's really unusual.

Yeah.

Especially how he uses the baseline and— it's just the way he sees the geometry of the court.

He knows basketball really well. And he's also, he seems like very fearless.

That was like when— so I hadn't really watched Chris Paul that much when he got to the Clippers. I'd seen him on League Pass. They had the one good Pelican season, but then watching him in person, And there was just stuff with him where things he saw and how he would always get to that one spot. And the other team knew. It was like what you said about Z-Bo before. He's like, I'm just gonna— eventually I'm gonna end up here and I'm gonna get a 12-footer. And the other team knew it and he would just get it. Like, how the fuck is he— that's what Dylan Harper has some of that too. It's like, how is he yo-yoing these guys like this?

But he is. And to be doing that in your first year is like, I don't know, it's impressive. I mean, his ceiling's high. I mean, he played unbelievable, but like, that's the San Antonio— if San Antonio Antonio, if he's, if he's that next level.

Yeah, I like Houston this year too. Houston and Denver were my other 2, but a little less bullish on Minnesota because I don't trust LaMelo.

I

just don't. I don't trust him to play 2,400 minutes. I just don't think it's gonna happen.

If you just give him like, hey, okay, this is your playground. Yeah, you play with inside this, but inside this you get to do what you want to do. Then like, I think that, that, I don't know. Finch has a better idea, but like, that is like kind of the way you have to let him play because you can't put him in this— and I don't see them trying to do that to him, but like, you can't put him in this— you can't make him something he's not.

I think they're going the other way. They're going to be like, let's— you and Ant, just balls to the wall, let's go take some bad shots.

Preseason was a good example. Knock yourself out. All right, have fun.

Um, let's do 5 minutes on sports parenting before we go.

Oh yeah.

So you're— how old are your kids?

Son's 13, daughter's 10.

All right, so you've been in it for a couple years now.

Yeah.

What— and what sports are they playing?

Son's playing football, tackle football.

Nice.

And he's playing basketball, and he's actually kind of like gotten into volleyball recently. Sand— he was doing some sand stuff this summer, and he's, he's just a— he just picks stuff up really quickly.

Multiple sports is good.

Yeah, yeah. I, I am, I am not— I am so against early sports specialization. I think it's killing youth sports.

I have a lot of regrets

with other things in youth sports.

My daughter was basically soccer only from other than school stuff. And I would—

but I

just wish I had made her play basketball. I know, but I wish I had made her play 2.

To me, I should have said this. If you are going to do one sport, then as a parent, I think you have to be very conscious of like, hey, we're taking time off. It's a good point. I'm sorry. You don't have to play multiple sports. I think it does help. But if you are going to play one, it's not going to be a year-round thing from the time you're 8 years old till—

That's what's happened with basketball.

It's happening with every sport.

Never ends. Basketball's the— these tournaments, you're just playing for 2 straight days.

Every sport. The thing that has gotten better in basketball, at least on the EYBL circuit, which was AAU when I was playing, but we would go to tournaments. I remember going— we'd fly to Memphis for a tournament, and we would play maybe 2 games Friday afternoon, Friday night. And then you'd wake up and you'd play 4 games on Saturday. And then if you kept advancing, you'd maybe play 4 on Sunday. So you'd come home and you played 10 games. And now with the EYBL setup, I think the max is like 4 games per weekend.

10 games.

You know what I mean?

Yeah. I wonder why people are having knee and Achilles issues.

Yeah. I wish I had known that.

And it's just crazy. Plus, like, who's running this stuff? It's all, you know, that, that's the other issue.

But yeah, exactly. On the flip side of that too is like, now you feel like you have to play year-round, or maybe you're playing less games, but now you feel like you have to train more. You have to get with this trainer, you have to do this. I think it's killing. And we're also pricing kids out of sports.

I mean, that's 100% happened in soccer.

Yeah,

basketball is a little easier because you just need a ball and you go to a park. Like soccer, you need a field, you need equipment.

I think baseball—

Sneakers are growing.

Baseball, hockey. I mean, tennis and golf are already— they've been— yeah, but like all these other sports, I mean, families are spending— I mean, I have an episode on this, so it's like—

Not to step on you too much.

Yeah, but like families are spending $1,200 on their kids' primary sport.

Yeah,

like that's especially today, like that's not something that people can sustain. multiple kids year and year over year over year unless you have, you have the luxury of just being able to afford it.

My daughter's team during COVID we would drive to Arizona because we weren't allowed to play here.

Really?

Drive to Arizona.

She's a senior in college now, so she was high school.

Yeah. So we would, uh, stay in hotels. Yeah, we couldn't play here, but everybody was doing it. Yeah, like, this is, this is even more insane than how insane everything else was. Now we're driving 7 hours to play games.

There's a whole thing around— it's called playcations. So, like, because they're putting on these big tournaments where everybody travels to them, and the hotels are benefiting, restaurants, it's bringing a whole— and so the playcation idea is like, you find these places that are willing to have a certain amount of hotels and have the venue, and you pay for parking at the venue. And if you can't go, you can also stream your kid's game, but you got to pay to stream your kid's game.

Yeah.

And like, there's— it's just now that we've figured out, you know, you can make— for youth sports is a $40 billion industry.

And climbing, you know, it's bad because the rich guys are coming in now and buying stakes and stuff from companies.

Yeah, whenever private equity gets involved, it's not for the— it's not for the heart.

Private equity owns youth sports shit. No, it's like you'd see soccer tournaments here, you'd— they, you know, one of the locations was Oceanside, or still is, right? Legoland's right there too. So now it's like, all right, now bring the whole family. You go to Legoland, you go to the game, and, you know, it's pretty expensive weekend for people.

Yeah. And she was doing clubs since how old?

8.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm in the home stretch.

Yeah.

The volleyball things, that one we were talking about before we started, like that one you would think, oh, I'm a good athlete, I'll just hop on. But it's actually not like that at all. You really need to be doing it probably, I would say, by age 10.

Yeah. I mean, my daughter's 10. She played— last year was her first year of club volleyball. And it's— I mean, honestly, dude, it's amazing how good they are. She's a good little player, but her teammates too. She's playing up, and her teammates— I mean, and you— so it's like a club, so where you see like the older girls, like the maybe 13s, 13U team.

Yeah.

And you're like, oh my gosh. Like, they are playing real volleyball.

And they're jumping like 200 times A day.

Yeah, that's— yeah,

you have to be in pretty sick shape.

Yeah. And it's honestly, women's college volleyball is so much fun to watch on TV. I haven't been to a game since I was at Oklahoma, but like, there's— that's a, that's a sport that translates really well to TV.

The 2 sports that you have to pick up early or you're in trouble are soccer and hockey, because soccer, there's a geometry with the field and how teams move and give and go stuff, that there's some of that in basketball too. But in soccer, like, you really need— it's just, you couldn't just waltz in as like a 16-year-old and be like, all right, I'm playing soccer now.

Yeah, yeah.

And then the other one's hockey. If you're not skating by age 4, you might as well. Yeah, age 4, age 5.

The soccer thing is really interesting too, because it's like, I played when I was young, but then having been away from it for so long, and then I, you know, I, I watched the World Cup, but I don't watch a ton of soccer, and it takes me a while Towards the end. Yeah. To the end of the World Cup, you're like, now you're on— you understand why guys are moving certain places. But the beginning, I'm like, why is— why does it— why does it look like that? Like, why— you're not seeing the angles and stuff. It's a good point. I didn't really, like, think about it.

I didn't get into it till late 2000s, and that was when I got to know Nash a little bit too. And he's a huge soccer guy and would talk about how similar soccer and basketball was and tell me to look for different, different players. And there was a guy that— on the team that he liked, Luka Modrić, that actually, it was like the Nash of soccer. And it was so funny that that was like Nash's guy because it was very similar to— really, you know. But, but the same thing, like the spacing. And after you watch enough of it, you kind of get it. Now I feel like I get it. I don't get it like I get basketball, but I get it, you know. But it takes— you just really—

Defensively in soccer is where I'm like, it's like the, the angles that guys play, it looks so off, but then they're there.

Yeah,

they like get to it and But it just— also, I don't really watch in person too, and maybe that changes it. I don't know.

Did you have hesitation with football for your son?

No, I wouldn't say real hesitation. He started playing— this is his 3rd season of tackle. And there's a lot of precautions now, especially like all of July, they're practicing just helmets. They're working on technique, tackling technique. And they're also not to the age yet where they're— Guys are like— there's kids that are super fast, but they're— and big, but like, they're not— they're not like— they haven't filled out where they're hitting really, really hard. Now this year, actually, there have— there's been some, like, some bigger hits.

Oh, no.

Yeah, not necessarily like— it's more so like, I would— I think like running backs more so, receivers less. My son's a receiver, um, but there are some stuff— there's some kids on my son's team this year that are massive. And they move.

What do you like during these games?

I just— I sit pretty silently. I actually record a lot for, like, my parents and stuff. But— and then I also sign up— my favorite thing is to sign up for chain gang, 'cause then I can just be away from everybody else. I can just be on the sideline. Oh, interesting. I just sit there, I have my hat on, and you just, like— I sit— I'm just— it's nice. So I prefer to be chain gang during the game.

Volleyball's a really good spectator sport.

So it was my—

when I was like a high school newspaper reporter, it was my favorite sport to cover. So it was like, it was just super understandable. Everything was fast. It was like quick attention.

Were you watching? Did you guys have men's and women's? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. See, yeah, men— like, there was no men's volleyball in Oklahoma.

Women's was obviously more, more fun for a variety of reasons, but basically the points were longer.

Yeah.

You know, and you could really, you know, not all the kids looked all different shapes and sizes, but it was good. It was fun to watch.

Yeah. I've enjoyed, I've enjoyed my daughter's, um, volleyball experience. It's been, it's been fun. Except the tournaments are a little, you walk into these gyms and it's like 24 courts and it's just screaming and whistles going. There's a whistle that starts every play.

Right. You're hearing whistles the whole time.

Dude, it's, it's chaos.

We walk in. I did a podcast about the best and worst sports for parents for youth sports. And the worst ones are that it's basically what you have for volleyball, but it's gymnastics or swimming.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Because those, you don't know when your kid's gonna go. You're there for 8 hours. Yeah, there's one meet at— there's one thing at 7 and there's another one at 3:30.

Do you consider like dance being one of those?

I don't, but I would, I would accept the case.

My daughter did like dance when she was like younger, and she, she hasn't, thank God. But like, I mean, if she wanted to, great. But dude, you, you go to And they don't just go like, okay, the young girls go now, and then they exit. No, they do one, and there's like every other age group, then the young girls go again, every other age group. So you can't come and leave. You have to stay for the whole thing. You're there for like 3 and a half hours, just like, oh my gosh.

How about the fact that at least we have phones though?

Yeah.

If you think about 2002,

Just nothing but

your thoughts. You're like flatlining. Yeah. Writing stuff down in a notebook.

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

It's probably better. That's probably why we were more creative back then.

Yeah.

All right, Blake Griffin, say hi to, uh, all your Amazon dudes. Good luck with the step back. Um,

thank

you. Good luck with everything. Sorry I wouldn't have you on the '24 Celtics.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

Would've been fun.

Those guys, I sacrificed myself.

You'll be fine. Good luck with everything.

Thank you, man. Appreciate it.

My friend Pete Berg is here. It's been years since we potted, 'cause you haven't directed in 6 years.

Well, I've directed some miniseries.

But not like a feature movie.

This is my first film in a minute. Did American Primeval and did something called Painkiller, which feel like movies 'cause it's 6 hours of constant filming, and it's a lot of work. But this is the first film I made in a bit, so...

Do you like that, the 6-hour? Or do you like the movie thing?

I like both, but after American Primeval, You know, I was thinking about my son, who's now starting to be a filmmaker, and his friends who all want to be filmmakers. And I was kind of thinking about movies, and I really wanted to make a movie. I wanted to put it in the theaters. And I think it's a good time for movies right now. There's a lot of really—

I agree.

Really good stuff out. And I just was like, I've enjoyed this stuff. I enjoyed American Primeval. I'm really proud of it, but I was super proud to make Mosquito Bowl and get back into the movie business.

So, our history, we go way back to the 2000s. You've been on this pod. At Grantland, we did pods. You did pods when I was at the old Ring Office.

Well, you kept Friday Night Lights on the air.

You always say that. I hope it's 100% true.

You did. You were certainly one of them. Friday Night Lights was challenged, certainly challenged with ratings. We were challenged to find an audience. And there were a couple of people I credit with just being in our corner, having our back. You were just, like, so open with your enthusiasm and support.

I wrote a timely piece, I remember, for ESPN Magazine, I think right as they were deciding. But you told me something interesting. We've talked about this before, but you were talking about the people who are in decision-making powers. They don't really see that many people during the day. I always remember this. This is one of the best things I've ever— anyone's ever said on a pod with me, that they go from like, they leave their place in New York City or wherever.

Yes.

Maybe they run into the doorman.

Yes.

They run to the guy who drives them.

Yes.

Their assistant, somebody in the elevator. And if you do something that will be mentioned during one of those interactions, it really sticks with them for some reason.

Yeah. We're talking about Zucker from NBC. Right. And it was in his hands. And he was a big shot who worked at 30 Rock back at the time. And I know that what happened is he was in his Fifth Avenue apartment, in the elevator, and the key to getting Friday Night Lights picked up was when he got out of the elevator, as he walked through the lobby, before he got in his car— It's

like 2 minutes.

Yeah, you have 2 minutes, and you need the doorman or someone that lives in the building to walk by him. and say, I love that show, Friday Night Lights. And those little moments I felt, um, could make all the difference and were underreported.

Every time we've done a pod, we've talked about the legacy of Friday Night Lights, but now it's 20 years. Um, the cast, it just continues to get crazier and crazier what's happened with some of the people that have been on there. MBJ just won an Oscar.

Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah. I just saw Jesse Plemons.

Jesse Plemons is one of the most respected under-45 actors in the world right now.

They're all doing well. And we just did, I don't know if you've seen the new NFL opening for the Netflix football games. Yeah. But I did one with Kyle and we brought Explosions in the Sky back. And I haven't, I've been kind of shy to be involved with anything that involves the phrase clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

Yeah.

But Gabe, who I like a lot at Netflix, kind of called me. He's like, would you think about doing it? And I called Kyle, and we did it, and the response was really great. So, there's little Friday Night Lights coming before each Netflix football game.

Well, you know what else happened? The binge era. These last— COVID. And people like my daughter, who's 21 now, where they just— you start watching it, and you're just plowing through it, which was the problem when it was on in '06. There was no binge. If you missed it, you couldn't jump back into it. And I told you the story about I got the Japanese DVDs on eBay, and I watched season 1 with Japanese subtitles.

Amazing.

'Cause they did— there was no other way to watch it.

I mean, I remember that one of the first moments that really indicated to me that Friday Night Lights was gonna have some bizarre legs was when I went to Hong Kong. This was— 12 years ago. Went to Hong Kong. I was doing some work in Hong Kong and checked into the Mandarin Oriental Hotel. It's one of those hotels where they, you don't check in there, they meet you and they bring you up to your room. It's a little fancy and they check you in in your room.

They give you a little hot, hot little towel.

A hot towel, some weird juice, tea, like very like royal treatment. And it was this young, 20-something girl, Chinese, and a young guy, similar age, Chinese. And they brought me up to my room, and we walked in the room, and it was all done up with, like, balloon footballs, and football cake, and pictures of the cast from Friday Night Lights. I'm like, what's going on? And they said, we love Friday Night Lights. I said, you're in Hong Kong? And they said, yes. I said, but you're Chinese. Yes, we are. And we love Friday Night Lights. And that kind of blew my mind.

It's so weird when that happens. Right now in Italy, Beverly Hills, 90210 is one of the biggest shows.

Really?

They just run that. The show's 30 years old. And people in Italy are like, this is amazing. It's the top-rated show.

I mean, I—

You just never know with the other countries.

You never know. how anything is gonna be viewed and how it's gonna last. And for Friday Night Lights to have stuck around as long as it has, for people asking us to bring it back, for new generations—

I mean, honestly, it's a huge miss. It should be back. I don't know what you're doing.

You think it should come back?

I do. Because I think you could do the modern version of it. I think you could reinvent it. There's all these different models in place now. I thought what Cobra Kai did was really interesting with the old Karate Kid movies, and they basically put everybody in now. I don't know if you'd do that with Coach Taylor and his wife, or you have like the kids or what, but I— it's such a good brand. I think it's grown. I think the brand's grown over the last 15 years.

No, it has for sure. So we have a plan, and if we did do it, um—

Oh, this is good. See, I'm nudging you now.

We're nudging. We have a plan. I mean, we're not— We're not stupid. We have a plan. I think if we did it, it would be a new cast. It would be a new story.

Has to be.

It would be relevant to the day that, you know, it was 20 years ago. And obviously, high school football has changed quite a bit. NIL has made things change.

NIL makes it really interesting.

Yeah. The internet makes it sort of relevant in a different way. So...

Yeah, but Friday Night Lights, basically, I think that was the first TV episode that ever hit what was going on with the internet. The slam page episode with Minka Kelly's character.

Your memory is incredible.

But I just, I remember that being like, thinking my daughter was like 1 year old or something when that happened. I remember seeing that being like, oh man, is this where we're going? And by the way, it's way worse than it ever could have been even predicted in that episode.

I think, you know, one of the things that some people, is that really the catalyst for me doing the TV series Friday Night Lights was an injury that I witnessed on a football field in Texas. This young football player from San Antonio Madison, David Edwards, was paralyzed at a playoff game against Austin Westlake High School.

And you were there?

I was at that game, and it happened right in front of me. And I got to know David, and his family, and my family got to be friends with their family. And this injury brought together 2 very different cultures in San Antonio and Austin. Mm-hmm. And it was this incredibly powerful experience. And we all got to know David. And he lived, I think, 5 years after the injury, and he passed away. But that experience, which was what led to writing the Jason Street injury, was so fueling me when I wrote that pilot. And that, you know, there would be no Friday Night Lights TV show if David Edwards hadn't, you know, come into my life.

Well, you also had the movie, which we did on Rewatchables, I think, 2 years ago, which I think has really gained steam as one of the better 20— the last 25 years, I think, one of the best sports movies.

Appreciate that.

And then you had your cousin wrote the book. So, you were kind of destined to do all 3 versions.

for sure to do the movie, but the TV show was like— there was just no way after I got to know David Edwards and saw that and went through that horror and that tragedy and saw what that did to the community. There was no way. I just— that's what fueled me to write it. So, I guess what I'm saying is if we do it again, obviously, I don't want anyone to get hurt, and that would be horrific. But there has to be kind of, for all of us involved, a real reason to do it, and that kind of exists inside the soul.

We did an episode, it's not out yet, but we did an episode of the Rewatchables for the first weekend in November for All the Right Moves with Tom Cruise, which we felt he was in the zeitgeist 'cause of Digger. I've always loved this movie, but it's 91 minutes. You just go into Pennsylvania, and it's this whole world, which was the same kind of thing that worked for Friday Night Lights, where it's like, I don't know anything about Texas. I don't know anything about high school football there. And you just brought us in there. And it's weird that it's been 20 years now, and no other show has been able to pull it off.

And it's weird that that Tom Cruise, who did, I believe, a pretty extraordinary dance scene in a locker room—

He did. Played a little cornerback.

—is the man and has the career that he has today. I remember that I loved the movie. Loved how Tom Cruise committed. I saw Digger last week, and I loved it. You loved it? Yeah, I don't understand why—

There's a big turn with Digger coming up.

People were shitting on it so much. And yeah, he's gonna get nominated for an Oscar, possibly win one. He's incredibly good in the film. And I thought the film was really good. And I'm not quite clear on why people are reacting to it.

Sometimes it's like in football games when they call it the sweep. Like when you like a team, it's like, it's the spot. They got killed last week. Sometimes movies are the same way.

Yeah.

Right? Like Hancock, which I think Bane was just talking about in the office. I think a movie that's gained steam over the last 20 years, but when it came out was considered disappointing.

Yeah.

But now you look back and it's a really interesting movie.

I think it is. Yeah. And I think it was so far ahead of its time in terms of being like a subversive, superhero, and Will Smith is this alcoholic mess of a man who just destroys the city stopping a drunk driver. And yeah, I mean, the challenge with Hancock is that the first, I don't know, 90 minutes was this just raucous, drunk superhero, and it was really fun.

Yeah.

And then there was a turn that tried to kind of hit a very tricky emotional sweet spot. And I'm really proud of that film. We tried to hit it, you know.

Well, the timing of it's funny because the next year is Iron Man and Dark Knight. And you do this at the tail end of this other era of superhero movies where it really wasn't going that well. Like, we had more busts than hits. And it was like, we didn't have the CGI right. We didn't have the right actors in these things. I always felt like Hancock was making fun of some of that stuff.

Dude, Will Smith, just sent me a script for a sequel to Hancock.

Hancock 2?

Yeah. And I don't know whether it's ever going to happen or not, but it is so good and so funny and plays directly into who Will is and everything that's happened with Will. And, you know—

Oh, it's like meta?

Well, a little bit. You know, it's about a guy who's beloved, who's struggled, and maybe had a few rough moments. and who is trying to move on with his life. But it's really—

Isn't that all of us? I guess not on the stage Will Smith was on.

Not quite as high profile. But yes, that's definitely all of us. But it's just— it's really funny and insane. So, I did read it, and I thought it would be an amazing film.

Well, I remember you and I knew each other at that point, and you loved Will Smith.

For sure.

You were like, Will Smith's the fucking best. Don't— Don't let anyone tell you differently. This guy's the greatest. So when you're watching, he has some bumps, and you're watching from afar, what are you thinking?

I mean, that was a rough, rough, rough moment. I think Denzel Washington had a line that he said too well that night, which is, when you're right at the edge of heaven, that's when the devil comes calling as loud as possible. And I think It was a bad moment, and we should not be defined by our worst moments. I think he's an incredible talent. He's a funny guy. He's brought a real life force to my world, to our business, and I'm rooting for him.

Who is the biggest star you've worked with where you're just like, goddamn, that guy's a huge star, or that lady's a huge star?

Will Smith. Yeah. I mean, I remember back when we were doing Hancock, we were in New York, and Will couldn't walk out of the hotel to the car, just across the sidewalk, without a small mob being formed. And he had been that famous for a long time. And those were the days when fame hit differently. Guys like Cruise and Will, were so wildly globally famous. I mean, he could— I was in China with him, I was in Korea with him, I was all over Europe and South America. And the power of that celebrity was, I mean, it exists today. And I'm sure that, you know, if Messi started walking around certain neighborhoods anywhere in the world, things would get rather hectic. But—

You know what's different about it though? Social media. 'Cause I feel like social media, you have more of a constant connection to celebrities. Whereas, like, even if you're going to when Hancock came out, it's '07. You don't really have a connection with Will Smith unless he's in an interview or he's in your city.

Right, right, right. And then—

But now you feel like, oh, I can see him on Instagram.

Well, then it was like the difference between a TV star and a film star. 'Cause a TV star, you just turn on your TV in your living room, and he's with you. A film star, you had to go to the theater. You had to invest. You had to drive and park and pay all that money. And then you had to come to them. And back then, there were film stars, and there was no social media, so you didn't get to see them that much. So when people made direct eye contact with Will, they just passed out.

Right.

I mean, literally, I saw people pass out and just completely lose their shit. And, um,

well, that's why I love—

so he was the biggest—

the YouTube clips from the '70s and '80s of like major concerts, wrestling, WWE events, or boxing. And you see how crazy the crowds are. And it was because it was like, oh my God, the Doobie Brothers are in Houston. This is unbelievable. I can't believe they're here.

It's crazy. And I was at a Raiders game 2 weeks ago in Vegas. And I was in a box, and James Hetfield from Metallica was sitting in the box. And I was with 2 younger, 20-something young men, and I was just locked in on James. And Alice Cooper played at halftime. Yeah. And James was, like, playing the guitar along with, like, School's Out, and, like, singing. And I'm like, you guys— they were not— You know, my son and his friend, they didn't care. I'm like, you don't understand. They're like, well, we don't. And I pulled up the Metallica live in Moscow. Have you ever seen that footage?

I don't think so.

Metallica live in Moscow. 1.5 million Russians showed up.

Oh my God.

And you've got to see the footage. Whenever I need to be hyped, it's over a million people. The Red Army, the Russian military is trying to do security, but they're dancing. There's military helicopters flying all over, and James is just playing Sandman, like, full out. And I showed, you know, these kids the video, and they were just speechless to think, you know, Taylor Swift, full respect, those concerts are electrifying, but Metallica live in, I don't know, '80-something?

Yeah.

In Moscow with over a million Russians and the military just going insane. And then to see him sitting there with his wife, watching a football game.

Having a hot dog.

Having a hot dog, air-guitaring to Alice Cooper. But yeah, those days, I mean, those were days.

Well, you don't get credit. You were probably the key moment for 30 for 30, season 1.

You guys had me do the first one.

Once you agreed, it made it possible to get other directors because you became the person— it was like throwing a party. Where it's like, well, who's coming? Who do I know? And it's like, well, Pete Berg's coming. They're like, Pete Berg's gonna be in this?

You came into my office and you're like, we want you to do a documentary on sports. Okay? Anything you want. Anything. I'm like, what? And you said, I know you love hockey. I know you know Gretzky. What about the Gretzky trade? And you aimed me at that.

I don't remember that, but I'll take credit for it.

And who else was in the room? Was it—

It was me and Connor.

Connor.

Yeah.

And I mean, I think you gave me some ideas, and that was one of them. And then, you know, I went and did it.

We needed to get, like, 4 directors to start.

Yeah.

And we got you, and we got Barry Levinson, and then we were— once we had you two, then Mike Toland came in, and it became easy.

I still get so many, you know, thank yous for doing that. And I remember I was filming Gretzky on the driving range out at Sherwood, And we were just hitting balls. And my plan was to take him on 18 holes and play 18 holes of golf with him and just talk about life and hockey and whatever. And we started talking on the driving range and we started talking about the legacy of Edmonton and how good they were and who that, you know, how many, I think 5 cups at Edmonton. Yeah. And how good that team was with Tikhonin and Messier and Grant Fuhr and that, The team was so good.

Gary Curry.

Curry. And then broken up and he gets traded and never wins another cup. And I asked him at the driving range, I'm like, well, how many do you think you would've won? He said 12. He said, if we had stayed together, we would've won 12 cups. And I said, how often do you think about that? I remember he was looking down and this big-ass teardrop just came out of his eye. hit the dirt on the driving range. And he looked up at me and he said, I think about it every day.

Wow.

And that's something I just think people don't talk about or think about enough, just how dominant that franchise would've been. More than the Bulls, more than the Patriots.

Yeah, they even won one after they traded him. They had so much talent, they won anyway. But yeah, at least 4 or 5 more. Yeah, so you signed on for that one. And it was a different era for documentaries too. Like, I look back to those season 1, I really— I love that those were an hour. It was like 50, 52 minutes max.

No, what you created with 30 for 30 was genius. It was evergreen.

I wasn't fishing for compliments.

Well, but it was.

I'm just saying it was a different era where it was like you could tell a story in 52 minutes. Now, I think if we did that, it would've been like, oh, the rise and fall of the Edmonton Oilers. and we have 2 bidders, and we have to get— and Gretzky's going to be a producer. And it's like, back then, you'd just be like, hey, we're going to tell this story. Wayne's in. Let's go.

Yeah. I mean, I'm not— it still was an extraordinarily simple but a brilliant idea because— and I don't know that you guys even knew. You never know going into something, obviously, what its legacy is going to be and how it's going to last. You couldn't have known that. You had an idea. It proved to be For me, one of the great things about it was it gave people like me, Barry Levinson, um, oh, who did the You? I love that one.

Billy Corbin.

Yeah. People who just don't have a voice, filmmakers who, you know, Hollywood guys or whatever, suddenly who love sports, who have these sort of obsessions, it was this incredible platform. And there was nothing like it. So people just rushed towards it, and you guys curated it well. And it

was good.

It was a good time.

HBO had this recently, this 40-minute documentary about when Dennis Miller was on Monday Night Football for 2 years.

Yeah, I forgot about that.

It's like a 45-minute documentary. They interviewed like 7 people in it. It just has a beginning, middle, and end, and it really felt like a 30 for 30. And I was like, I— 'cause I don't— I'm not doing sports documentaries anymore. I think I've run my course with them. But I would be interested again if it was more in those kind of things where you're just telling a start-to-finish story versus like, it's gotta be 4 hours. We have to have all these different people in it. I just— and the people who you're interviewing have to be EPs. I just can't do it anymore. In fact, you— I look back at the late 2000s and it's like, man, we really had it good back then.

I'm watching the Elon doc right now. Oh, yeah? It's a 4-hour doc, and it's not sports-related, but thinking about what you just said, that's a doc I could see you doing or getting attached to. It's not a sports doc, but it's just a long, really, really intense look at a complicated human being.

What'd you think of the Shanley doc that Judd did?

I loved it. I cried. I told him I cried. I mean, for me, Shandling was just a dear friend. And I knew him so well.

Like your legitimate friend.

Yeah, like a legitimate friend. He and I started a boxing gym together, which blows people's minds. And Garry Shandling used to love, love, love boxing. And he would be in our gym talking to Russian fighters or Mexican fighters or— Ukrainian fighters who had no idea who he was. And he would just be there talking and giving these fighters his opinions on what was working with their boxing and what wasn't. Talking to them. And they just knew him as G. They just called him G. And—

Unlikely boxing body, head, everything. Not somebody you would imagine seeing in the ring.

No, no. He was a horrible boxer. And I think we talked about the Alec Baldwin Gary Shandling interview series that he was doing? Did I tell you about this?

I don't— if you did, I forgot it.

So Shandling wanted— Gary Shandling was such an out-of-the-box thinker, and he wanted to do a talk show, but he wanted it to be different. So I think he did Jerry Seinfeld, where they just went and walked through Central Park, and Gary wouldn't talk. He didn't talk. He just allowed there to either be silence or force Seinfeld to talk. And it was so— just literally just being comfortable with 3 minutes of this.

Just intimidating people to say stuff?

Yeah. Like, say something. I'm not going to provoke you. And so he did that, which was not particularly good, by the way.

Yeah, I would imagine.

But it was just kind of weird. He did some other stuff with Tom Petty, and then he did one with Alec Baldwin, where he invited Alec Baldwin to fight him, and he was gonna interview Alec Baldwin while they were fighting, while they were boxing. So Alec Baldwin, who— and you can find this on YouTube— Alec Baldwin was not in great shape, gets into the ring, I think thinking that they were just gonna, like, you know, act like they were—

Throw a couple fake jabs. Yeah.

Fake punches and act it. And Garry just started swinging at him, and Alec started swinging back. And then they— I was there. It looked for a minute like they were both having— not about to, but having heart attacks. They both looked like they were having heart attacks. And then Garry started the interview. So it was, uh—

Oh my God.

That was the most interesting, the idea of like, let's fight and talk, either while we're fighting and bleeding, or after we're done fighting and bleeding. Let's talk about comedy, or let's— Let's talk about sports, but let's fight while we're doing it.

You don't still box, do you? A little bit?

I still go in. I don't let anybody punch me in the face anymore. Like, a year ago, I was light sparring with someone in our gym, and I got hit kind of in the back of the neck, and I just felt everything go numb and electrical current shooting through my body. I'm like—

That's it.

That's enough. So I'll spar with the pros because they're not really allowed to hit me back and I trust them. But like, I wouldn't spar with you or— like, back in the day, I sparred with Steve Nash, with Cam Newton, with Saquon Barkley. Nice. And like, I would play with those guys and like, they would— I knew how to box well enough and I'd— keep them calm so that we were just playing. But then, before I got hit and saw white flashes, I was sparring with Cam Newton, who's 6'6. Yeah, big dude. Very large guy. And he'd never boxed, and I was trying to show him how to box. And I lightly touched him in the chin, at which point he just saw white and started swinging. And he caught me hard and kind of knocked me back. And then he caught me again. And I knew it was serious because my son and all my friends were in there, and they wanted to see me sort of get, like, lit up by Cam. But then I heard my son and his trainer, Julian, scream, you gotta stop! And he just went like— he just went like he had no control.

It was like Incredible Hulk.

Yeah, he lost control. And I could have, like, really died. Jesus. And he was apologetic, and he's like, I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened. Like, he got hit, and he was like—

He was like 20 years younger than you too.

Yes. And much bigger. And so that was the beginning of the end. And then when I got caught a year ago at the gym and saw just like flashes of electrical current and white, I decided my fighting days, for the most part, are over. But I still love to work out.

Who was the best boxer you've seen in the gym? Just navigating the gym and hitting somebody on, like, a Tuesday afternoon? I mean,

there have been a few. Canelo? I think Canelo, yes. But the most impressive to me was David Benavidez.

Oh, yeah.

Who knocked Bivol down with a jab in our gym. They were sparring, and Bivol got put down by Benavidez. Wow.

He's a badass. Oh my God.

Benny Benavidez.

He's a top 5. You don't wanna fight with this guy, guys.

He's my favorite fighter out there right now. And I mean, it was just so cool to have the gym and see Bivol and Benavidez and Lomachenko and Tyson Fury and Canelo and Terence Crawford and all these guys just like suddenly in our gym working out or sparring. Crawford was there. coaching Conor Benn, trying to help him get around Ryan Garcia, which obviously did not go well.

Yeah, that did not go well.

It was—

Wait, tell the sewage story. You told this story, but I don't know if you said it on the pod. This is a great story.

So, I had an idea, like, 16, 17 years ago. My directing career was going well, but I kind of wanted a side hustle. And people were asking if I wanted to go in on a restaurant or a bar or something like that. And I'm like, well, yeah, I guess. But if I own a bar, Like, what good is gonna come out of that? Like, it'll probably go bankrupt, and I'll just drink myself senseless until it does. I'm like, I don't really wanna do that. I love boxing. I talked to Garry Shandling. I'm like, what if we start a real boxing club? Like a pro boxing club?

Yeah.

And he's like, okay, sure, why not? And we figured, like, it would be fun. It would be, like, probably lose money, but at least we'd, like, have to do something healthy. We'd exercise a lot, and we love boxing. So, we started the gym. And Gary was kind of not— was an inconsistent— a very loyal friend, but an inconsistent partner. Was sort of involved. So, most of it went to me. And opening a boxing gym is probably like— I would think maybe like next to opening a strip club is one of the stupidest things you can do.

It's kind of like buying a boat, opening a gentlemen's club.

Well, it's because you've gotta manage these complex people, and you've got rough guys, Lawsuits every 2 seconds.

So it's like a restaurant with violence.

Yeah, like a strip club with violence. Like, think about that. Like, that's kind of what it felt like.

With more violence.

Yeah, with more violence and threat of death, you know. So it was a nonstop headache, and I was constantly dealing with— you know, we'd have Santa Monica cops in there training, and the cops would come up to me and be like, those 2 guys got to get out of here now because we know who they are and there's about to Like, we had bomb threats.

Sounds fun.

We had lots of spice, and it was starting to be a big headache, and I was starting to think about closing it. I didn't want to, but I was thinking about it. And I was in New Mexico making Lone Survivor, and we were up on Ski Santa Fe Mountain, and Wahlberg was there, and Taylor Kitsch, and Ben Foster, and we're doing this big gunfight with bombs and... Like, I was in it, right up on top of a mountain. And I got a call from my assistant in LA that all of our sewer pipes in the gym had exploded, and there was just raw sewage everywhere. And she was having some, like, dissociative breakdown, screaming, I don't deserve this! I moved out to Los Angeles to be a star! I'm a princess! I am a princess!

Yeah.

And she was going— she was losing her mind, literally cleaning up.

It sounds disgusting.

Right? It was horrible. And, and I was empathetic, and I like— we finished work, it was a Friday, and I flew back to LA, and she, she was there. Um, God love her. Her name was Liz, and she was a great assistant, and she didn't deserve this. And, and together we cleaned it up, and it took about a day and a half, and it was like Breaking Bad, like, stuff, right? Like, you know, full jumpsuits, face hazmat stuff. We cleaned it up. She left. I've gotta leave to go back to New Mexico to keep making the film.

Yeah.

The gym actually looks good. We've cleaned it up. Still smells a little funny, but not bad. And I'm sitting by myself in the gym, and there's a big mirror in front of me, and I'm looking around, and I'm thinking, we had a good run. And I see this flash of red reflected in the mirror, and someone's in the gym. And I turn, and it's Canelo Alvarez, and he's just standing in my gym. And he's— this was—

He's like 20 or 21 at this point? Yeah.

Just coming up, but clearly, like everyone said, this is the face of boxing, and I knew who he was. He looked at me, and he's like, I'm looking for Peter. And I'm like, I'm me. That's me. I'm Peter. He's like, Freddie Roach told me I could come train, do my camp here. He was getting ready to fight Austin Trout. It was right around that time. And I'm like, you wanna do your camp here? I'm like, that's awesome.

And he's like, and I love the smell of raw sewage.

I don't know why—

I love the odor in here.

We're both kind of ignoring that. I'm just sort of— we're playing through, right? We're not acknowledging it 'cause the floors are clean. We've cleaned them. But I'm not sure whether he's detecting the aroma, but I don't think he is. He's like, Freddie Roach said I could train here. I'm looking for a place to do my camp. My name's Saul Alvarez. I said, I know who you are. He said—

Yeah, this was the future of boxing at this point.

And I'm like buzzing, right? But I'm trying to be cool. And he said, can I see the gym? And I said, well, this is pretty much the gym. Like, there's a bathroom over there. But this is the gym. He's like, okay, I like it. So, can I do my camp here? Like, we're making a deal right on the spot. I said, yes. We shake hands. He goes outside. There's 3 Suburbans full of his crew. So, his Eddie Reynaos and Chepo, his trainers. Yeah. And all his sparring partners and his handlers are all— like 20 Mexicans come flying into the gym, turn on the music, The gym, we don't— I don't close it. The gym holds on, takes off, and that became, you know, we've been going now for 16 years.

I remember you told— when you told me he was training there, I was like, Canelo? He's training? Like, I couldn't believe it.

I sparred one round with Canelo.

Oh, that was a mistake.

Yeah. So I— it was my birthday. I'd flown in from New York.

I didn't do that.

I'd flown in from New York. I knew he was doing a camp. I'd had a few drinks on the plane, my birthday, come into the gym, everyone's in the gym, uh, he's sparring. I look at him, I say, I'm next. Okay, I'm not drunk, but I'm not sober.

It's like one body punch, you're doubled over for a year.

But I'm like, I gotta like at least say that I did it, right? That's what my distorted thought process—

It's like the Ernest Hemingway in you.

Yeah, not like, is it a good idea? No. Yeah, I'm gonna do it like I've done I've done stupider things, right? I've done stupider things. I went to Iraq for a month and embedded with the SEAL platoon.

Yeah.

I've done stupid things. So, I go up, I get my stuff on, I come down, everyone's looking at me. He finishes his 3 rounds with whoever it is. These are world-class sparring guys. I'm somewhat drunk, and I've done a quick wrap job, and I'm not warmed up at all. I get in the ring, I go 3 minutes, 2 minutes and 48 seconds, I haven't been able to hit him. He hasn't thrown a punch. 2 minutes and 59 seconds of a 3-minute round, he throws one punch, a jab. And he hits me in a way that I've never been hit, but it kind of like, right above the nose, and it locks my head down, and my whole neck cracks. Like chiropractic adjustment cracks. But it was one punch, probably thrown 40%, and he kind of smiled at me. And I'm like, you didn't knock me down, champ. And I got out of the ring. But it was, uh, it was something I can say I did.

It cracked your neck?

Cracked my neck. It was the most— it was the most incredible punch. It was literally like a chiropractic adjustment. And it was so perfectly thrown.

'Cause it— you had— probably been in a couple scraps in your day.

But not with anyone like Canelo. And I mean, he could have literally killed me. And it's— you know, what I think people understand when they go to UFC or they go to, you know, a boxing match, they instinctively understand that these are athletes on another level. And like, to be able to get into a ring with Canelo and just try and hit him,

Yeah.

And just see how incredibly graceful he is, and how much muscle memory there is. And to realize that, you know, these are extraordinary athletes. What Ryan Garcia did, he used to come into the gym when he was much younger. What he just did to Conor Benn is, you know, for anyone that's following the athleticism of boxing, like, it goes without saying that these are extraordinary athletes. And I was like, you know, I'm joking about going around with Canelo. I didn't go around with Canelo. If he tried to, you know, it was just pure mercy on his part. But he knew that on my birthday, it would be fun for me to get in the ring with him.

And you'd have a good story.

And have a good story. But I didn't anticipate the jab that, like, literally cracked my neck in a great way. Like, it felt great. It was like an incredible adjustment. And then he smiled, and I said, thank you. And he's been an incredible ambassador for the sport, which is still as fucked up a sport as you will find on the planet Earth.

Better shape lately.

A little bit. But yes.

We've had more good fights.

It's sinking less quickly, and hopefully Dana can turn it around. And Eddie Hearn and Dana, 'cause I do like Eddie Hearn, We work with Dana at our gym at Soufa. I'm hoping that these guys can— I don't know if you're following all the shit they're talking.

I'm following literally everything. I watched Wardley this week.

Yeah. I mean, it's great entertainment having Oscar De La Hoya kind of clap back.

Yeah.

Which I think is the greatest thing on social media, Oscar's Clap Back Thursday.

He's a wild card.

Oh, God, you think?

When did you move to LA?

So I moved to LA in '80, right during the Olympics in '84.

Was, was that— who was your crew? I don't know if I've ever asked you this.

So my original—

Did you have like an actor crew? Because you were in the class like ahead of Damon Affleck.

My original crew, the only one I knew out here was an Italian named Sam Galetti, whose family ran the docks, the fishing docks in San Pedro. And they lived up in the hills in San Pedro.

It's like Sabaka in The Wire.

I had met him when I was in college in Minnesota. We went to the same entrepreneurial seminar that his family had sent him. And he was like Joe Pesci from Goodfellas. He's short, thick, Italian, and they ran Terminal Island. So, the first person— he invited me to stay with him in LA. And I went down there and stayed with the Galettis, worked down on the fishing docks, unloading rock cod fishing boats. And they would loan me one of the family Cadillacs. They had a fleet of Cadillacs.

Jeez.

And I would drive up to Hollywood and interview, trying to get PA jobs.

Yeah.

And that's how I got my first job. But it was Sam Galetti was my first hang. And then my best friend, Ari Emanuel, moved out, and Ari and I lived in a little apartment.

You were best friends before he moved out?

Well, we were—

I haven't read his book yet.

Ari and I were— we went to college together and became very good friends in college. And he graduated a year ahead of me, and he went to New York to work in an agency. I moved to LA and started working in production, trying to figure it out. He then moved to LA, and we lived in a rough little apartment in Hollywood.

Where was it?

It was Fairfax. Fairfax area. Like near Melrose and Fairfax.

Some Canter's.

We used to go to Canter's all the time when we could afford it.

Yeah.

And there was a pizza shop right across the street from Canter's. It's out now, but we would go there. But we— I was working as a PA on films. Ari was in the mailroom at Channel 4. CAA, he would steal the bagels from Mike Ovitz's conferences and the salmon and the bagels. And I'd steal M&Ms and candy and whatever I could get from the craft service tables. And that's how we lived for 2 years. And we just stole food and— Yeah, but that was

probably your favorite 2 years.

They were the best times. And we would never get invited anywhere. My break came from— I had been playing in a softball game, and I got hit in the mouth with a softball, knocked my tooth out, and busted my lip, like 80 stitches. So, they sewed me up, and I looked like the Elephant Man. I had this big, fat, swollen lip, missing a tooth, on painkillers. And Ari and I— it was a Saturday night, we went to Canter's, and I tried to get soup down. And he just kept making fun of me, and it hurt so much to laugh, I had to hold my mouth shut. And after soup, we did what we used to always do, which was just drive. We would just drive around, 'cause we were never invited anywhere. Yeah. We had no money, so we'd drive around, listen to music, and, like, go home. We're driving around, we're going down Laurel. There's a huge party. All the cars, all the valets. We're like, let's try and crash the party. We crash the party, get in, It's a party for the woman who produced One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I can't remember her name, but she won the Oscar.

Her party, big Hollywood party, there's security there. We somehow get in. There's a huge buffet. We get all this food, and we split up 'cause we don't have food. Like, we haven't seen this much food. So I go his way, he goes his way. I'm sitting trying to eat my food, but I can't get it in my mouth 'cause I've got— Yeah. 80 stitches, but I'm so hungry, trying to get the food in. And all of a sudden, I sense someone standing over me, and I hear, what are you doing? And I look up, and there's this woman. And I'm like, I'm sorry, we'll leave. She's like, no, you don't have to leave. I asked, what are you? What is this all about? I'm like, oh, my name's Pete, and I got 80 stitches, and my tooth is out. And she said, well, my name is Laurie, Laurie Rotkin. And I'm a manager. I want you to come meet with me.

Just 'cause she was watching you eat food?

She saw me, and she had an eye. And Lori Rodkin really is responsible for Brad Pitt's career, Robert Downey Jr.'s career, Virginia Madsen's career. Remember Judd Nelson? Of course you remember Judd Nelson. Judd Nelson's career. She was, at the time, like, if she saw you, And she put, like, she blessed you. You had a shot.

She saw something.

Something about me with my 80-plus stitches trying to get, like, stolen—

I

think it was a pig in a blanket I was trying to get in there. And without Laurie and Ari, and that was— Ari and I crashed the party. And people are like, well, how do you make it in a career? I'm like, well, I got all my teeth knocked out, 86 stitches, Had no money. We crashed a party, and Laurie Rodkin saw me trying to, like, stick a pig in a blanket in my mouth. And that was my big break. But Ari and I—

It's so crazy. That's like 80% of the stories for how something happened that was, like, life-altering. It's always some stupid, I ran into this person, or—

What would yours be?

I mean, honestly, the reason I'm in LA is 'cause I wrote a column about the Shack roast.

Yeah.

And Jimmy was in it, Jimmy Kimmel.

Yeah.

He was in the roast, and I was writing about how funny he was, and he contacted me, and I ended up moving out here to write for his show. So if he doesn't read the piece, am I out here? I don't know.

Probably. And that's the thing where—

Maybe at some point, but I don't know.

Yeah. But that is what it is. And it was like you put the effort in, and I still think it's just about effort. Well,

once the door's open, you got to plow through it. The thing that you and Ari spending that much time together is pretty nuts. I mean, he's in the news now. He just wrote a book. He's obviously incredibly successful. I know him a little bit too. But the fact that you were going to a party to try to get to—

We were nothing. We had nothing. And people have whatever opinions they might want to have about Ari because he's risen so high.

Yeah.

Like, truly, no— nothing given. No nepotism.

Yeah.

No contacts. Nobody rooting for you, you know?

Right. Even now.

For either one of us, nobody rooted for us. Like, you know, my parents— my father, with love, advised me that if I pursued my dream and tried to come to Hollywood, I would end up making gay porn. That was his final, good luck, Pete. And he was— that was— there was love in that comment. He was trying to scare me straight.

Yeah.

But it was like, thanks, Dad. Like, are you the same way?

See, you're gonna be in Pizza Delivery Boys 5.

No.

That's where it's gonna end.

Like, he went there.

Don't go. Yeah.

He went to the dark side. And it scared me. And it's still like a voice in my head. And like, I can be on the set like a mosquito bolt thinking of my dad's voice. in the back of my head saying, like, you better be careful. You better work hard. And I think Ari has the same voice.

But what I don't understand is you guys are both, like, legitimate alphas. I don't understand how you guys— it's almost like when the— like 2 dogs in the backyard who are just constantly fighting each other.

We used to fight, like, physically all the time.

Like you'd actually get in altercations?

We were on his birthday in Texas. We were getting ready to go play golf, and we played golf, And we're at the hotel getting dressed. There was like 10 guys, we're gonna go have dinner, and then we're in Dallas. I think it was Dallas. We're at some course where every hole is a different famous hole recreated. Yeah. It's like something from Turnberry, something from Spyglass, something from Augusta, and it was some gimmicky thing. And Ari wanted to go there for his birthday. So, we played that course during the day, and then it was at night, we're in some shitty hotel, And me and Ari were sharing a room. We were doubling up in rooms. And we're getting dressed and getting ready to put our ties on. We're gonna go out nice. And we're both sitting there, and we're talking, and we stop talking. We look at each other, and we just attack each other. We just attack, and we just start fighting. And Ari was a high school wrestler.

Yeah.

And he's hard, and he fights. And I was using animal strength, and we just started Destroy the room. And we finally stop.

Is this in his book?

Clothes are ripped, we've stopped fighting, and we're staring at each other like, what the fuck is wrong with us? And we're staring at each other, and we attack again. And we attack again and just utterly destroy the room, rip each other to— we're bleeding, we're snot, we're covered in sweat. And We just started laughing.

But I mean, he did just write a whole book about how—

Rage.

Using rage to succeed.

But like, yeah, I mean, I think we both played like we were not in the home court, that we were not popular, that nobody wanted us to win. And that friendship has been forged 40 years now. And it's hard.

And he's repped you the whole time?

No, there were times, like when he first started in WME— oh, no, it wasn't WME, it was Endeavor. He's like, listen, man, I don't know if this is going to work. Stay here. I'll tell you if it's going to work. And I'm like, okay. And I was at a different point in my career. I wasn't going to be able to make or break that agency. But very quickly, he said, come, we're gonna do it.

Mm.

So, he's either repped me or advised me. And when I first moved to LA and I was living with those Italians, I started writing little short stories about me living with the Italians. And I only sent them to Ari. And they had a housekeeper at the house who didn't like me 'cause it was like added laundry that she had to do at the Glady Brothers. And so I wrote these short stories about me and this cleaning lady just having this quiet war with each other. And she hated me and hated that she had to— It's

like War of the Roses, but with a cleaning lady.

Yeah, kind of. And Ari, I was working in New York at a law firm, or at an agency, and I would send him these little scenes that I was writing. And he's like, you got it right. You got it right. So he's been in my corner forever.

And that was it.

And ride or die is an overused phrase, but it's ride or die.

I like him, but I like all straight shooters. Oh,

he's a straight shooter.

He's the ultimate. He's just shooting this way the entire time. He will not bullshit. He will give you his opinion, which I kind of respect.

Every movie, when I do a film, Has he ever

told you, like, that movie

doesn't have it, it

sucks?

He's like, that sucks. That's awful. I'm not going to say the movie because I don't think any of the movies suck. I fall in love with all of them. Some a little more than others. But yeah, Ari has told me that some of my work straight out sucks.

But if he tells you it's good, then that means it carries a different weight, right?

He was a big supporter of my last film. And I know, like everyone else, Like, maybe they're telling the truth. I know he is.

Well, you told me something interesting when we were talking about Mosquito Bull. You thought it was the best movie you've ever done. Now, I don't know if you feel that way after every movie.

I felt deeply connected. When I say, like, I think it's the best film, what I really say— I'm saying is, like, I felt— tremendous inspiration when I was writing that film. I went to Okinawa and toured the site of that battle, which is arguably the worst battle, certainly involving Americans, in terms of loss of life and just the bloodshed that was experienced on that island. And I toured that island with current Marines. We have a huge Marine Corps presence in Okinawa now, which most people don't even know about. I mean, tens of thousands of Marines and aircraft carriers and subs, and there's a huge military presence there now because of China. But they toured me that island and I went inch for inch and saw where these Okinawans jumped off of cliffs with their babies, where Japanese soldiers blew themselves up with hand grenades in caves, where the Americans died, where their graves were marked. And that was powerful for me. My dad was a Marine. My dad served in Korea. Buzz Bisinger wrote the book. His dad served in Okinawa. Like, something was brewing. And then I went to Parris Island, where we— in South Carolina, where the Marines are trained, where the drill instructors do their thing and scream.

Yeah.

Pat McAbee plays a drill instructor in the film. And he went— I took him down there also. possible to not go down there and be incredibly inspired by these young men and women now who are entering this world.

Yeah.

And the drill instructors who train them in kind of— the time I spent loading myself creatively with Okinawa and these drill instructors, and thinking about the SEALs I know, thinking about what they go through when they're in, thinking about how hard it's been for them getting out. A good friend of mine, a SEAL who got out, Andrew Honeyman, killed himself several months ago. That, to me, was just representative of what we ask these young men and women to go through. And the quote in the beginning of the film is a quote by Hoover saying, old men declare war, but it is the youth who must fight and die. And that was all kind of boiling inside of me when I made this film. And so, when I say I think it's my best, I just— I've never, not since David Edwards was paralyzed and I wrote Friday Night Lights, was I kind of so locked in wanting to write something and wanting to bring a certain level of experience into a film.

Plus World War II. You probably always wanted to do something with World War II.

Well, people were telling me, like, I was scared, you know, 'cause we— there had been some really great work World War II film, Saving Private Ryan. It was a very good movie, and Spielberg did one hell of a job.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, we have combat sequences in our film, and

you have a long-ass combat sequence that actually reminded me of Saving Private Ryan when I was watching it. Really? Well, it's, it's long and it's intense, and like, when it's over, you kind of want to go have a cigarette. It's one of those.

I was, um, you know, people people ask me, why would you want to do another World War II film? Why would you want to do a beach invasion when they've been done well? And they clearly have. And my response, it was the same response when I did American Primeval. Everyone's like, well, why do you want to do another Western? There's so many great Westerns. I'm like, there are, but I never did one.

Right.

And I want to try one. I think we found our own language with the combat in the film. And just trying to capture the intensity of that visceral experience and what it must have been like. I mean, think about you're a 21-year-old, All-American college football player. You're Tony Butkovich, maybe the best running back in the country. You know, you wanna go play for the Giants, but the—

He was a first-round pick.

First-round pick. He wanted to play for the Giants. The Browns ended up drafting him. But you've just, you're living life and all cylinders are firing. You're an elite football player. You've got the coolest girlfriend. Young kids worship you. Your parents love you. And Pearl Harbor pops off and you're like, oh. I'm gonna stop this. I'm gonna join the Marine Corps. I'm just gonna go take care of this war thing. It's like a game. I'm just gonna go win this little game of war. Yeah. And you get there, and you're used to competing with certain rules of, like, etiquette. Like, you know, a referee, a whistle, a clock. I beat you. At the end, we shake hands. And you're fighting these Japanese kids who were kids, who were ordered by their emperor to never surrender. And so, I've got a gun on you, and I'm like, Bill, give it up. I got you, you won't surrender. You'll charge me, you'll use your— if you're out of bullets, you'll try and bayonet me. If that doesn't work, you'll club me. If that doesn't work, you'll pick up a rock, and you won't stop until you're killed. And if I can't kill you, you'll kill yourself.

So these young kids, these college football players, go over there and get introduced to this flavor of hell that I just felt— Like, very, very fired up to tell that story.

I watched it Friday night. My dad is in town, who loves World War II, everything. But I didn't tell him what it was about. I just told him, man, my friend Pete made a movie. We gotta watch it tonight. And he had no idea what was happening. He followed the whole thing. He really liked it. Like, he— and he— it was weird. At the end, he was like, it's kind of a feel-good movie. And I was like, it was? And he was like, He's seen so many of those, but he did feel, I don't know, he wasn't depressed afterwards.

Well, the football game in the middle of it is kind of why Bissinger wrote the book. The idea that there were, right before the Battle of Okinawa, there were 40,000 Marines on this island, Guadalcanal, getting ready to go invade Okinawa. And they knew that the death tolls were gonna be very, very high, which they were. And in general realized that there were 50 elite college football players in pro. And so these guys got to have this moment of play, and they got to play this football game. And that's why Bissinger wrote the book.

Yeah, I don't wanna spoil the movie, but it comes later than you think it does. And I'd kind of forgotten it was gonna happen. I was just in the World War II

part.

And then all of a sudden, We were having a football game, but it was really cool.

Well, I think that if your dad felt— I mean, maybe it's the Explosions in the Sky music. Those are my guys.

It's just really well done. I mean, it's obvious that you weren't zipping through this one.

No, I felt it.

I

felt it. So thank your dad for me.

Also, there's not a lot of war movies. We've gone in stages with war movies, but one where you're in an extended battle, and you start putting yourself in the position as people like, oh my God, like I was complaining yesterday because the fucking coffee, the coffee filter wasn't working right. And then you just feel like an idiot. Like, can you imagine being in this? And the fact that people felt like they would just drop everything to go defend our country because it was like, well, what else are we gonna do? Of course we're gonna do this. And I don't know, it brought in different feelings for me.

Well, I'm glad to hear that. And I think, One of my goals, especially with the combat, was to try and make it feel as immersive as possible so that you—

I thought you did.

You stop feeling like— I always feel like I do my best work when I feel like I've made something where the audience is not going to be a spectator. It's not a spectator sport, it's a participatory sport. And I don't want you anywhere near your phone. I want to own you, right? I want to own your breathing when you're watching those sequences.

Well, Friday Night's the movie was like that too. Like, there was a couple game scenes when you're just like—

You lock in. And that's, again, like when I say it's like, I think it's one of my better films. I do love all my films like I would love all my children. Some you might love a little bit more. secretly. But this felt like we were hitting that immersive experiential vibe. And if it means you stop for a minute and think, wait a minute, I think my life sucks right now. Oh, I'm like having trouble with whatever. Right. No, you're not on a beach at Tarawa watching your friends' throats get shot out as you catch on fire. and you've gotta go find a gun because you lost your gun in the water.

Pulling the tags off your friends so you have something.

So I don't think that's a bad takeaway. I think it's actually a really good takeaway. And you think about, if one's so inclined, like what's going on right now in Ukraine, right here, right now, where, you know, I've heard numbers up to 45,000 a month dying. Russia and Ukraine. It's trench warfare. It's young men being sent out to fight. And it's happening. Like, what you see in Mosquito Bowl is happening in this world right now. So, that was all kind of lurking in my brain when I made the film.

Probably a better movie theater movie than a home experience.

I hope so. So, Ted Sarandos, it's funny because You make a film at Netflix, and you never know, right? So I made a movie there, and it just stays on the platform.

You never know who's going to be working there the week your movie comes

out? You don't know. No, you don't know who's going to be working there. Shout out to Bella, who I think we both admire very much and wish all the very best. Not that she needs it. She'll get it.

She'll be fine, but she was awesome.

Yeah.

I thought she did a great job running everything for them.

She did. And this is the nature of Hollywood.

It is.

These jobs, someone says they're rented. All of our jobs are rented. I say, we are owed nothing, and things happen. But definitely a bummer. And for us this week, as we're getting ready to come out, we come out in 2 weeks, There's been, you know, some shakeups at Netflix, but Ted did say when he saw the film, this film should be seen in theaters.

Good.

And he gave us a real meaningful release. He gave us a 30-plus-day release. He brokered a truce with AMC Theaters because AMC and Netflix were like, fuck you, fuck you. We're not gonna show your movies. And so, we were able to broker a détente. I think is the word. And we're going to get the good theaters, so we're not just getting a BS little run in some shitty theaters that nobody wants to go to. And I appreciate Ted for doing that. I do think that movies are in an awesome spot right now.

I would say the best in 12 years.

I would too. And Please come. If you're going to see our film, see it in a movie theater. It's big and intense. And I think— I don't know, do you agree? Deserves to be seen in a theater.

In retrospect, I wish I had seen it in a theater, but we had the pod, and I wanted to— I was glad I watched it with my dad. And I have a good TV setup, so it wasn't lacking, but it would've been different.

You could imagine, like, big and loud, IMAX style.

You want the seat shaking and stuff.

And I think I want movies to live. I know you love movies. I mean, I watch tons of television shows, love it. Thankful for Netflix, all that. But man, come on. Like, I want movies. I want movie theaters.

Well, people are going again.

Yeah. And I think—

And by the way, if you're a creative person, like how much— how many— you did the 6-hour TV show. How much of your life was that?

Making it?

Yeah, it's 6 1-hour episodes. That's like a year, right?

So, American Primeval was like a 140-day shoot on the mountain. And like, making a 6-hour— but I don't mind that. I don't mind the work. And it's really kind of cool to have 6 hours to go really deep in character. And Bella gave us everything we wanted for American Primeval, you know, when I really started to respect her was on a primeval and let me do what I wanted to do. And I was super proud of that. But people watch it at home, and they're on their phones, and they're distracted, and they might—

That's the problem.

And

then they move to the next thing, and they finish that, and go to the next show that they have to watch.

Instantly forgettable.

It's the half-watch era.

Correct.

I do it too. I'm as guilty as anyone.

Same here. And I want—

right now, I'm watching Crystal Lake on Peacock, And if you quiz me on it, I think I would get like a D minus.

'Cause you're figuring it out.

But I've watched every minute of it. But I'm also like reading football and making picks.

But then like when something holds your attention, doesn't it? Does it like, what's the last thing besides Mosquito Bowl?

Where you just like throw the iPad and the phones away?

You're just like locked in and like, like I'm watching the Elon Musk doc now. Yeah. Locked in for whatever reason. You know, like you appreciate something that locks you in. you in so much more now because it's so hard to lock in.

It's, it's much harder.

Football, you know?

Well, football is definitely— yeah.

Like, this season, it feels like— does it not feel like we're like in some weird, rarefied year?

Because we don't have any good teams. We have a bunch of pretty good teams. And so every week, like, the Rams are 2-4.

But they're not a bad team though, right?

But everyone's kind of okay with which makes it a really fun football season 'cause we have no actual favorites. KC's 5-0. I don't feel awesome about them.

I heard you talking about my NFC East and my Giants and just how like—

8 wins in 6 weeks.

That stat, I heard that stat. Wasn't it like the worst, some like the lowest wins since the merger, did you say?

Yeah. No division has gone winless 2 straight weeks in a row.

Yeah.

Since 1970.

What's blowing my mind a bit too is like owning a boxing gym and seeing all these pro athletes, and we have a lot, and I see what they're doing as far as like recovery and the stuff they're taking and the saunas and the ice baths and the hyperbaric chambers.

Yeah.

And supplements, all legal as far as I know, but that are, you know, meant to enhance, and yoga and stretching techniques and all this stuff. And to see the injuries in football this year, I mean—

Yeah.

I mean, to see—

Basketball too. We had another Achilles injury today's game.

Dude, what is happening? Like, I really don't think it's doing any good. I think it's all bullshit. I think 90% of this recovery work that everyone's obsessed with— The only guy I've seen whose training really feels like it's on another level, who worked with our actors on Mosquito Bowl, is Christian McCaffrey. who came down and trained a bunch of our actors, 'cause some of them had no idea. They'd never played football. They were British. And so Christian—

Is that true?

Yeah. 2 Brits in a suite who I had— I'm like—

What was Tony Bukovich? He was British?

Tony Bukovich is Ray Nicholson. He played football. He was—

'Cause I thought he was the— I mean, he was my favorite character. I think he was supposed to be, though.

Yeah. And he was the best athlete. But Christian came down and was out. and he trained them. And what Christian does—

That's your fault for hiring British actors, jerk.

I know, but they were the best actors. They were the best actors.

See, you're part of the problem.

But I feel like if I was a GM, I would always just draft the best athlete, right? Like, just don't think about quarterback, don't think about, you know, skill position, go with the best athletes. I don't know whether that works or not, but I was—

Who was the best athlete Friday Night Lights? MBJ?

Oh, the TV show or the movie?

TV show.

Because the movie, it was Lucas Black, was a really good football player. Let me think for a second. The TV show, probably Michael Jordan. Yeah, probably Michael Jordan. Just very athletic. When I auditioned him, the first time I auditioned him, He went, he started improvising that he was a linebacker, and he just went off, and he tackled me into a wall, broke a lamp, like just went off and didn't apologize. He was like, yeah, that just happened. He's just like, Blue 80! Blue 80! Dog, dog, red! And he just tackled me.

He's an old-school Jersey athlete.

Yeah, he's a good athlete. And just had that like—

Convincing QB.

I mean, the 2 stories of Friday Night Lights, like, Michael B., looking back on it, no shock, right?

Yeah.

From the moment he auditioned and tackled me through a wall, I knew this kid was going to go somewhere. Jesse Plemons was basically an extra, had one line in the pilot, was a nothing role. Came in— when you're casting these shows, you spend so much time on the main roles, It's kind of a very exhausting process, and you read so many actors, and you put them through all these auditions. You spend so much of your bandwidth that once you've made those decisions, the smaller roles, it's like, hmm, let me see. Okay, you look good. Your nose is working. You got all your teeth. Okay, you're hired. Like, you just want to get it over with. Jesse was that. Like, I mean, he had all his teeth.

Complete fluke.

He said, yes, sir. Proud to be here. Great, you're hired. Totally forgot about him until the first day he was on set, and he was doing a scene with Saracen, with Zach Gilford. And it was really Zach's scene. He was just the nerdy little friend. And I remember he said something like, hello, Mrs. Saracen. And he— to match my— it was his line. And then she said hello and gave him a dirty look, and he just sort of like— snarled to himself, like he didn't like the fact that the mother was being mean to him. But I remember like, whoa, what was that?

Yeah.

What was that? That little thing.

You added it.

He did it.

Yeah.

And but it completely took the fall. He just was like, hmm.

Right.

Hmm. At the mother who was like dissing him. Like he was like trying to give it back to her, but he was scared to. He was respectful, but he was angry that this lady was disrespecting him. He made this little moment out of nothing. And I remember thinking, look a little closer at this guy. And then every day— Sorry. Every day—

It's Ari calling, wondering why I haven't called him back.

Every day we added a little bit more, a little bit more. And then, like, our super hot girl, like, our sex symbol, not Garrity, but Adrienne Palicki, who was Tyra, was like, you know, she was the hot girl in the school. And slowly, like, the writers start aiming Landry, Jesse Plemons, at Tyra, and they become a couple. And, you know, there was some dumb stuff that didn't work, like a murder, but we got off of that quick.

Now it's funny. Now it's funny for the legacy of the show, the whole murder section.

And like, when we did it, I'm just like, let's just do it.

Well, that was the NBC wants us to get the ratings up. We need murder.

Yeah, do a murder. Do a murder. Do more sex. Do a murder.

Love triangle, murder. Just going down the list of notes.

And to their credit, they were like, just pretend like the murder— 'cause our strategy was, let's— and for those that don't know, the ratings were horrible and we're gonna cancel it.

Well, you also had to do 22 episodes. Now you're doing that show, you're doing 8.

So maybe 10.

10, 8. Yeah, 10.

But yeah, the murder was— that was not our finest hour. But the lesson that Jesse Plemons came out of nowhere. Michael B., you knew, like, yeah, this guy had Denzel vibes. And it just—

We knew each other at that point. I remember you telling me about casting that second group, and we were talking about How the White Shadow screwed this up. And it was a whole long convo about, like, this is how it goes wrong.

And

then you were like, this kid, Michael B., and he was from The Wire. And it was like, oh, my God, that kid? He died in season 1. I know him. Wallace.

And so, that was the biggest shock. Jesse, for sure. Like, you knew Minkow was gonna have a good run. You knew Kitch was gonna have a good run. You knew Kyle had maybe a chance. and Connie were gonna, um, you know—

Well, you caught both of them where it was gonna happen for them and you just— it happened for you.

I didn't want Kyle Chandler. You know that, right?

I'm afraid I know this though. Who did you want instead?

I wanted Dwight Yoakam.

Right, that's right.

And I was like, Dwight Yoakam, he's the guy. And Dwight wanted to do it. And then his schedule, because he was touring, you know, as a musician, he needed all this time off. I'm like, let's just give it to him. We'll give him the time off. They were like, we can't do that, Pete. I'm like, but we can. They're like, we can't. She can't be in the show unless she stops touring, which she wasn't gonna do.

Make too much money from touring.

Yeah. And then someone was like, Kyle Chandler. I'm like, Kyle Chandler? And he was on that show, Early Edition, where he'd get the newspaper the day before.

He was kind of the Brad Pitt class of— how old is he now? Like late 50s?

Yeah.

Yeah. He was in Damon Affleck, kind of that vicinity. He never had the show.

No, I didn't see it. Like, from watching the show, I'm like, no. Like, nice guy, good actor? No. We met. They're like, just take a meeting with him. And he showed up, and he'd just come back from a bachelor party, and he looked like shit. He was hungover.

That was it.

Beard, messy, bags under the eyes. And he was so not what I thought he was gonna be. And I'm like, this? Just do this, and we'll be good. All

right, well, the important things we leave with are, See the movie in the theater if you can, but if you can't, it'll be great either way, 'cause it's a really good movie.

And

then Friday Night Lights is coming back. Those are my 2 takeaways.

If you say so.

And don't get in a boxing ring again.

Not with Kev Alvarez.

Just don't get hit anymore.

No. If you want—

We're too old. Don't get hit.

If you want to work out with me in the gym, we'll get a good workout in, but I won't punch you and you don't punch me.

Who owns the— would that be NBC Peacock owns it? Oh, Friday Night Lights.

Yeah, the rights are kind of all over the place right now. So yes.

Well, fortunately for you, your cousin wrote the book that it's based on.

It would be NBC and that crew.

What are we doing? Just do it.

All right.

Can you put it in a different city?

You mean, but probably keep it in Texas, or you think we should move it to Florida or Like Florida.

Now we're talking.

But there's so many states like Pennsylvania. You could do Friday Night Lights in Pennsylvania. You could do it in Florida.

That's all the right moves.

You could do it in Atlanta. I mean, you, you could literally do it anywhere.

Florida has my attention.

Kind of interesting, right?

Yeah. 'Cause then you could bring some other stuff in there too.

All right. You bring a lot of stuff.

Bring some things in there. Pete Berg, great to see you.

Proud of you, buddy.

Proud of you. Thank you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Pete and Blake. and Gahal and Eduardo and Chris and Jack from the Spotify side. Don't forget, I have new rewatchables— It Follows, which went up, and we have a live rewatchables coming Monday, 5 o'clock ET. 4th horror movie of the month. If you want more basketball content, check out Zach Lowe's podcast, The Mismatch, Ringer NBA Show, uh, Ringer Wise Guys, Zach's Substack that we just launched, all the great pieces on the, uh, ringer.com And I'm gonna be back with a big-ass football podcast. I already got a couple great emails for, uh, for House for Thursday, but I'll be back on Thursday with more stuff. See you then. Must be 21+ and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18+ and present in D.C. or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts. Or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.