Transcript of An NBA Roundtable With Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine

Coming up more MBA. That's right. You're not going to bully me away from talking MBA. I'm going to do it on this podcast next. We're also brought to by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did before Sunrise, a '90s classic. You can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We have our friends at FanDuel who every Friday, 30 on 30, is happening. We have a 30 on 30 profit boost token on Fridays, where you can boost any 30 plus point score or 30 on 30 special bet on this Friday's slate on FanDuel. You know why this is good for this week? Because we have the All-Star snubs. We have people playing who didn't make the All-Star team, who then try to take it out on whoever their next game is. Like Philadelphia, playing Dever, Tyrese Maxi, ideal candidate. Toronto versus Chicago Zack Levine, he didn't make it. He's probably mad about it. Just try to match the anger and the resentment of the snub with the game, and you're good.

Be sure to claim the PBT and place your 30 on 30 bet for Friday. Just look for 30 on 30 in the FanDuel Sportsbook app. You know what else you can look for? We did that Trade by a Calm podcast with Bersillo on Tuesday, where we hashed out the final list. I got his help. I finally settled on the 85. Then we ran it on theringer. Com today, and I wrote an intro for it. The fingers actually worked. It was 1,200 words, but that's like 20,000 words for me. I mean, I can barely type. But anyway, I wrote an intro. I had fun. Then we laid out the whole list. It's got stats, it's got the money, all that stuff. Very excited about that. You can go read me on theringer. Com. Yeah, you can read me. Remember those days? Coming Justin Termine and Eddie Johnson, who I call into their show all the time on Serious, and they owe me one. They are coming on. We're going to talk basketball, and it's next. First, our friends from ProJap. All right, we're taping this late Thursday afternoon. I go on their show all the time, all the time, and they owe me, so they're coming on.

Eddie Johnson, just the term, you can hear them on serious NBA every afternoon. We're really here to talk about Eddie's finals pick, which was Minnesota versus Philadelphia before the season. I looked it up. That finals pick is three games under 500, Eddie. If it can't get over 500, do you just retire at the end of the year? What's your plan?

Well, my plan is I think Philadelphia is learning how to win without the best center in the NBA. I think they're learning to win without the best center in the NBA. One of the best small four was in the NBA, he's been injured, Paul George. If they're learning to win without them two, and those two come back, and they're in the play-in. I think we might see a repeat of Miami of a couple of years ago.

Justin, any comments on that one?

Well, Bill, this is what I deal with every single day. I say a lot of stupid things, and I still look like I'm rather intelligent because of things like this from Eddie. I mean, how many things did he get wrong there? Paul George, one of the best small forwards in the NBA, yeah, seven years ago. Joel Embiid, the best center in the NBA. Yeah, maybe if you took out what? Karl Anthony Towns, Joker. If you took out Wembeamma, if you took out Anthony Davis, maybe he's got a point. And Miami up a couple of years ago. Great point, Eddie. I think Cleveland, Boston, and New York are shaking in their boots.

That's amazing. When Embiid was basically the MVP two years ago and he got injured. And so you're basically judging Embiid based on an injury and saying that those guys are better than him. I'll give you Joketch. I mean, those are the two top players. But anybody else you're putting above MB. You're basically using the excuse that he's injured and saying he's not good anymore. So you can go kick rocks.

Are you in the matrix where Joel Embiid plays basketball games? Because we're living here on planet Earth when he's in street clothes every game.

Well, I've seen that. Well, I think they're doing the right thing with him right now, Bill. I think to sit them out. Let him get 100 % healthy. I think he's been trying to come back, and he hasn't been 100 % healthy. I don't think he started the season 100 % healthy, and he's paid a price. And I think what they're doing right now is the right thing. Sit them out. And guess what? If he can't play the rest of the year, I wouldn't play him. And I've said that on our show. And then that's when you have to suffer the consequences of having to wait another year. But for me, I think he needs to get 100 %. Some guys can get 90, he can't. He's got to be 100. And I think that's what they're doing with him right now.

Bill, when's the last time? I would say this to you. When's the last time, Bill, that a guy that was seven feet tall was having issues with his feet, was having issues with his knees, all of a sudden he ended up improving, right? And they're getting better as he age. In his 30s. Exactly. I can't think of one. And that's something Eddie and I agree on is I think Embiid loves to play, right? And there's some stars that maybe don't love to play. We've had that debate with Jimmy Butler, who's like, I don't take the regular season seriously. Until after the All-Star Game, he's always missing games. Like Eddie and I agree, he probably doesn't like playing the game that much. Embiid, I think, likes playing, but does Embiid like putting in the work that is required to play, to stay in shape in the offseason? And I think that's on him. You can't criticize him for being hurt all the time and having a bad body, but you can get on this case for not putting the work in in the offseason in order to condition himself appropriately.

I agree with Justin, which won't be the last time in this podcast Sorry, Eddie.

I was double-teamed a lot in high school and college, so it doesn't matter. At times in the NBA, so I can handle it. I'm fine. I guarantee you I won't throw the ball away like some guys.

Unlike Devon Booker, you're not going to complain about being double-teamed. Nice start to the You're hot here.

You mean not all-star, Devon Booker. Embiid, a lot of wear and tear, bad injury history of big men over seven feet who hit their 30s and have been in the automobile shop a lot, shall we say. I think If I'm Philly, I'm just terrified. One of the things I put up a trade value list today where I ranked the best trade assets in the league. I had 85 this year, and I had him be number 54 on the list. A couple of people reached out to me in NBA circles and were like, You I'm going to put him 254th. Nobody is trading for him in that contract. I'm not positive. I feel like it's gotten to that point. But, Justin, do you feel like is he even tradable at this point, or is it just like we have no idea what to expect with this dude anymore.

Yeah, I was talking about this the other day with Ryan McDonald, the former GM of the Suns, and he called it the worst contract in the sport. So he's thinking along the lines of view that nobody would deal for the guy. And I was talking about it in the show with Sam Mitchell. He was filling in for Eddie here today. We brought up like Jared Allen. I mean, you're in a position to win a championship right now in Cleveland. You think Cleveland's doing anything with Joel Embiid if it was for Jared Allen? No, they're going to stay with Jared Allen, even though he's nowhere as talented as Joel LNB. So, yeah, I think they're in a spot where who wants to be paying this guy 60 plus million dollars in 2029 when he's already got bad knees four years prior to that?

I'm on that line, Eddie, but you probably would bet on the talent.

Well, I would look at it more like this, and I said it. I said that these injured sit out and don't play. But if you all are telling me that a team worked out Joel Emby past his injury, and you all know that each team has his own ego. They always have. They think their trainers can get a guy right. Both of you all are telling me that if Joe Embi went to a potential trade team and worked out for them and looked good in his workout, that they wouldn't trade for him. Are you all crazy?

For 60 million plus dollars? I mean, get the Lakers turned down Bill Walton in the '80s.

I think it's teams out there right now. It's teams out there right now. If they worked him out and they saw that he was healthy, they traded for him in a heartbeat.

Now I went from... I agreed with everything you said, Justin. I also agree with Eddie. There's always a sucker out there who's going to talk themselves into it. We see it over and over again. I never would have thought the Clippers were going to give Kauai an extension after he just kept missing the playoffs. They're like, Here, take this. We see it over. I never thought Zion would be able to get any a multi-year anything, and he did.

Bill, you're right.

All the sons can make a trade under the second April. People didn't think that. Things can happen.

You're right. There is always a soccer, and Phoenix probably would be the sucker the way that they're going out.

I mean, that's a fair comment.

There you go.

Phoenix is the sucker at the poker table that all the other poker players are trying to keep at the I go a step further. No, stay two more hours.

I go a step further. If the Boston Celtics worked him out and thought he was healthy, they'd trade for him. In a heartbeat with who?

Do we not have a luxury tax anymore? I think Something's going the other way.

Hey, maybe they'll give up Jalen. They're not going to give up Tate him. But they trade for him. I hope that. If they worked him out and saw he was healthy, they'd trade for him in a heartbeat. Without a doubt, they would. Yes, they would.

I think if If I had to make my They'd be crazy enough to Trade For Him list, I think Golden State would do it just because I think Golden State right now... It's not Hale Mary time for Golden State, but it's third and 13, third and 15. I think they just need to do anything. Phoenix Definitely. If Phoenix could turn Beal and Embed, they would do that in five seconds.

No, we wouldn't do that.

What are you talking about?

We wouldn't do that trade.

Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Are you trading Beal for Embed?

That one, I actually agree with going after Embed.

No, we wouldn't do it.

For Bradley Beal?

We We wouldn't do it.

Did something happen with Bradley Beal, professionally, that I'm missing?

We wouldn't do it. I'm just kidding, man.

I'm just kidding. All right. Thank you. Speaking of the Phoenix Suns, the All-Star rosters came out today, and I had surprisingly very few quibbles. I would get to my one quibble. But I did notice that the great Devon Booker, who were on a lot of text with Eddie, where we have to hear about the virtues of Devon Booker and how great he is, did not make the All-Star team. Your defense, Eddie.

No, he did not. I think he should have... Look, put it this way. I think Norman Powell should have made it from the Clippers. Even on my pregame show for the Suns the other day, I didn't pick Devon. It wasn't that he wasn't worthy. It was a number of players that were out there that should have made it. Kyrie, obviously, Norman Powell. You had guards out there that were worthy of being picked. And I felt record is just a nose. I always lean toward record. And I thought Kyrie should have been the one picked. I do. I think based on what he's done without Luka, I think that's all-star level. Even though James Harden is playing in a selfish brand of basketball, and he's changed his game a lot. He's shooting what? Low 40s from the field. I just don't see how he made it over Norman Powell and over Devin Booker. I thought one of those two with Kyrie to me, and obviously I had Jalen Williams in that group because I thought people wouldn't pick him, should have made it. Look, I'm not surprised that Devin didn't make it. He got off to a slow start this year, and the record is right there in the middle of the pack of the West.

And so you're vulnerable when you're in that situation.

Yeah. And I actually, Bill, agree with Eddie on Norm Powell. I thought he should have made it. And listen, Eddie says a lot of crazy things that are absolutely ridiculous. Something I said at the beginning of the season that I owe an apology is to the Clippers because I killed them, as did a lot of other people. It's worked out perfectly. And Norm Powell, at the beginning of the season, said that it's addition by subtraction. Well, he's taking advantage of it. I think he should be an all-star. And then on the Devin Booker front, Eddie, I think broke it down fairly right there. He probably didn't deserve to be there. But it is a major knock on his legacy because this is a guy I feel like is talented enough where he should be there every single year. There's really no excuse for him not to make All-Star teams. And now it's two of the last three years where he hasn't made it. And you look at a guy like Eddie and myself and you fight about Jason Tatum, say what you want. Not only does he make the All-Star team every single year, he also makes First Team All-NBA every year.

Then you have Devin Booker who should be maybe in the same category as him or slightly behind, and he's missing out on stuff like this. I mean, that's a bad look, I think, for Devin Booker's resume.

So I go both ways, but first of all, I don't like the word snub. With the All-Star Game when we have a lot of good players. If you go back 20 years, which I wrote about in the Trade Value intro today, we didn't have a crapload of talent in 2007. If you got snub from the All-Star Game, you feel it. Now we have so many good players. The most surprising one was Kyrie, more surprising than Booker. I didn't like the thought of having two Suns All-stars when they're a 500 team, but I think Kyrie, what he's done without Luca, and the fact that he's just day to day, night to night, showing up, carrying them. I thought he They should have made it. That was the biggest snump to me. I don't understand why we had all these centers. I have no idea why Schengen, if you're going to have four centers, how does Schengen make it over Sabonis? But then, Eddie, the other side of it is I do like when they reward the guys on winning team, and it's like, Yeah, I get it. Houston should have an All-Star.

Yeah, and I've always said that. I've always said that.

So Schengen makes it over sub bonus. I get it. But I don't understand the Kyrie part, and I would have Kyrie overhearted.

Let me just say this about Kyrie real quick, Eddie, is don't forget who's voting for this stuff as well. How many times did Kyrie give coaches throughout the course of his career a hard time, bail on teams, get coaches fired? I wouldn't be shocked if some coaches look at that and they go, Oh, well, Steve Nash gets fired because of the attitude issue. He gives Brad Stevens a really difficult time. Just the different coaches that he's had run-ins with. I think that factors into some of this stuff as well.

I think a lot of stuff goes into it. I do. I think teams competing with one another, all of that. I think it does. When you just give the coaches to vote, attitude can come into play. So I'm not shocked by any of that. For me, I think, personally, Devon is going to... I I should focus him in the second half of the season. It's definitely a disappointment for him. I know he's not happy. Being not happy, you would like to think that he's going to just ramp himself up even more.

Yeah, there's long memories with the voting. I think that's a really good point about Kyrie. Kyrie was one of my least favorite basketball players. I really appreciate it the way he's turned his career around the last couple of years. It's got to hand it to him. I thought he acted like a pro last year. I thought he showed up, and that's all we ever wanted from him.

You know what, Bill? You know what? Really, what it is, is now we're seeing what his teammates have been saying, but we didn't believe it.

But he also wasn't showing. When you're not playing basketball, when you're You're acting erratically and giving away press conferences. But his teammates still loved him.

But his teammates still loved him. You didn't hear his teammates get on him. I think what we're seeing now is what the The whole beauty of Kyrie, without the stuff that was going on, because his teammates in the locker room, man, you talk, you listen, or you watch. I mean, do paying guys fines. It's just stuff like that that he does. Us that a lot of stars don't do.

I 80% agree, but even Kyrie last year was like, Yeah, I acted like a jerk. There's some things I would take back. He admitted it. No, I agree.

I totally agree. He did. I got on him. I mean, I got on him totally, doing the COVID situation and all of that. But what I'm saying is the things that I've heard about him is he's a great teammate. Now we're able to see it and not worry about the other stuff.

I wouldn't say that was all in the media. I mean, Jalen Brown gets along with him now. He didn't do that when he was in Boston. I thought one of the worst things that I saw from a teammate, and I think the worst thing on his resume is a game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals when he's hurt, and he's not sitting there supporting his teammates when he was claiming that he was a leader. That wasn't a good teammate. So, yeah, people are speaking of him highly now. I don't think it's been that way all the time because Jalen Brown didn't get along with him in Boston. Marcus Smart had his run-ins with him in Boston, as did other people.

Well, everybody has run-ins. Come on, but I just think that was more team-oriented attitude from Kyrie than his teammates. That's why Jalen Brown is friends with him again, because he understands that now. It wasn't personal with the players. It was more directed at the team, I believe.

What you just said about Kyrie and the teammates made me think of Westbrook and how Westbrook's teammates always loved them. Lakers accepted. I don't know. Although I do think a lot of the Lakers had him, but obviously it didn't work out well at all. But the teammates always swore by Westbrook, even when there was stuff about him stat padding, him trying to grab all the free throw rebounds, all that stuff. All his teammates love them.

Yeah. It's good to see those two guys.

Did you play with anybody like that? I He's like a beloved teammate guy?

What do you mean? Say it again now.

Like a star that you played with who was just everybody was all in and loved him?

Charles. Charles was unbelievable. You say what you want about Charles, and I know Scotty has something out there about Charles in regards to playing with him and all of that. But Scotty, he can't admit and say that Charles wasn't a great dude, man. He's one of the best teammates I've ever had, and had him for a short period of time. But I've had some great teammates Nate McKmillon. Gary Payton was a great teammate. Really? Oh, yeah, without a doubt. That was my guy, man. He was brash. He would say, But I love that about him. But no, he He was a great teammate. And so there's a lot of guys out there that were, but they never got the respect or the admiration because of things that maybe was outside the game with them. But Charles Man, that dude, man. I'm telling you, he's one of the best teammates I've ever had.

So the worst teammate you've ever had is Justin?

No, that's fine.

I didn't have any bad teammates, worst teammates, but I'll tell you this, and he's not here anymore. That's good. No, don't let me crap on the guy.

Stop listening.

No, I crapped on him when he was alive, and I even crapped on him to his face because he was just a surly guy. But Quintin Daily. Quintin Daily was an unbelievable basketball player. He'd scored 15 points in eight minutes. But he was just always in a bad mood. He was moody, and it just bothered me. And he and I, we butted heads all the time in Seattle, man, when he was there. But he might have been the surliest teammate I've ever been around. But you wanted them in the game because he could score quickly. That was fascinating about it.

On an unrelated note, by the way, Bill, he just surpassed Larry Bird as my favorite player in NBA history.

He butted heads of the '80s. Yeah. For the East Snubs, if you want to call them Snubs, they took four guards, three forwards, really no center. The one that jumped out to me was Maxie, but I also wouldn't have put him ahead of Garland, game Hero Arcade. So I was actually fine with the entire East team, the 12 guys they landed on, I thought were the 12 All-stars.

Do you have a counter? What about your guy, Jalen Brown? Now, I know it's hard to find another frontcourt guy, but I Here's why I think Jalen Brown is worthy, is I actually do think the year before, you got to take that stuff into account, reward winning from it. And I do that. People don't agree with it. I think it factors into the MVP race. How many times can you vote James Hard in the MVP when he falls flat in the postseason every year? Then he comes back, he dominates the regular season. So I see rewarding Jalen Brown for what he did last year. I don't think Jalen Brown's played in an all-star level this year. Do you?

I 100% do not. And I got to say, I was a little surprised he made it. But I also understand why they made it because of whatever the winning attitude was with how the selections happened this year. I think they wanted two Celts. I think if you weren't watching game to game and just looking at the stats and the fact that he's been durable. I think people like us that have watched a lot of the games like, Man, he hasn't played that well for a month.

Yeah. Eddie and I have done the stats on this, and it's something I don't have them in front of me. But if you go through basketball reference and look at all the numbers amongst the eight rotation guys, meaning the five starters plus Horford, plus Hauser, plus Payton Prichard. He's like dead last in a lot of the field goal percentages. He's dead last in the three-point percentages. He's dead last in all the advanced analytics. It's been a tough year. You just hope that it flips once in the whole season.

But here's the thing. Does it carry forward? Yes, it does. Do was MVP of the conference finals and MVP of the finals.

That's why I'm agreeing with you. He's making it.

I'm not He's making the All-Star team.

We've had some great players, didn't have great years, but he won a title last year. He's got those two accolades. It's going to be hard to keep him off the All-Star team now.

Well, the bigger thing is there was no guy that Oh, my God. I think if Jalen Johnson had been healthy the whole year and was healthy now, I think he would have a real chance.

Yeah, I would agree with you there. I think he would have given him a run for his money. I'm happy Garland made it. I think Cleveland deserve three on that, and I truly do. I think it was even between him and Donovan Mitchell, in my estimation, I'm happy for Mowbley because he could have been an odd man out.

I thought like Mowbley had to make it. To me, Mowbley and Jaron somewhere non-starters that had to be in the team. The two-way stuff they're doing on really good teams.

And I feel good for Hero because that's been a mess down there. He's on the trade market every year. Talk about Miami and the way they treat their stars and all these guys are pointed Paul pierce is pointing to the way they treat Jimmy Butler. How about the way they treated Tyler Hero? Every single year, he's on the trade market, and they're just putting them out. We'll trade you for Dane. We'll trade you for Donovan Mitchell. We'll trade you for Kevin Durant. And I never viewed him as an all-star. For him to make it, I think that's huge. So I feel good for him.

It helps Miami, too. It really helps Miami that Tyler Hero made it because it justifies that why they changed their offense and went away from Jimmy as much as they used to.

Especially at Crunchon, which I think was the thing with Jimmy. If you watch Miami, basically everything last three minutes was revolving on hero. I don't know if Jimmy was a giant fan of it.

And think about what that says about Bam. I don't even think anybody's looking at Bam and saying that he's a snob. He just hasn't been good this year at all.

I don't know. That's the big... I mean, that goes to the... You guys have talked about this a bunch, but the post-Olympics, what happened to some of these guys? Why did it take so much out of them? Bam's the weirdest one because his offense just went sideways. We had to take a break, and then I want to talk about the Butler trades and the Fox trades and what we think is going to happen. Sometimes in basketball, 30 points could be worth more than 30 points. Now, you can get a 30% profit boost from the Ringer with FanDuel's 30 on 30 during Friday's NBA That's right. The Ringer. Teeming up with America's number one sportsbook to give you a 30% profit boost. We either pick a player to score more than 30 points or bet on our new exclusive 30 on 30 special markets. Like any game, to have both teams to score 30 plus points in the first quarter. I talked to Fando about this. I thought we needed some gimmick, and it's been super fun. For this week, coming off the All-Star Game, you got to go with the Snubs. You got to go with Tyrese Maxi.

You got to go with Zack Levine. Anybody who even has a mild case they might have made the All-Star game and didn't make it, they always get revenge the next game. So ride with those picks, make your own. Look for 30 on 30 in the FanDuel Sportsbook app or head to fanduel. Com/bs for your chance to score a bigger payout this Friday. Don't miss your chance to find out how much 30 can be worth. The FanDuel 30 on 30 must be 21 plus present in select states or 18 plus in present in DC. Optin required. Bonus issue does We'll draw profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wage or amount. See terms at sportsbook. Fiendle. Com. Get in a problem call, 1-800 Gamble, or visit rg-help. Com. We talked about Jimmy Butler before, and it seems like Golden State. We're taping this. It's 6: 00 Pacific Time right now, Thursday. It seems like Golden State is going to be the team if there's a move, unless there's some surprise out of nowhere team. I was looking at Impossible Trades, and I think Wiggins has to be in it because there's got to be some fat salary, and it's either Wiggins or Draymon.

I just don't think they're going to trade Draymon. I just think that's Steph's guy. That's just like He's over here, you can't touch him. But it would have to be Wiggins. I think it has to be Schroeder because he's an expiring. Then there's a Kaminga piece to it where Kaminga, if Golden State doesn't want to pay him, and it could potentially be Wiggins Wiggins, Kaminga, and Schroeder, and maybe whatever else little small thing needs to come in. There's two separate questions here. Is that a lot to give up for a guy who has been unhappy for a year? Then also, if you're Miami, you might actually be pretty good down the stretch. If you turn a guy who's not really playing at all into Wiggins, who's looked really good the last couple of weeks and most of the season, Kaminga coming off the bench and then Schroeder at point guard?

It's a lot. I just think it's a lot. I think Jonathan Kaminga could be the next Butler. Who knows? I think he's just that good. I just think he's raw still. I think he sometimes gets out of character of what he is at this present moment.

But would you pay him? Because you're going to have to pay him next summer.

So what's he worth? Yes, I think he's that good, man. I do. I think from the... Look, think about it, from how he's had to evolve as a player, like with Steph and Clay. You're not taking shots early in the shot clock. You're not trying dribble it up on the break and be creative. You couldn't do all of that. You can get a little bit of it done now because Clay's not there. But just based on what I've seen from him this year, I just don't think they want to give him up. And if they do, I think it's going to pay a price because Butler is what? I mean, what, three years, maybe four at the most left? And you got a young player in Kominga. I think Miami, if they could do that deal, they jump all over that.

What's the point of keeping Kominga if you're not going to him or if you're going to yank him around like Steve Kerr's done. If he doesn't want him- Or if you're not going to pay him. Yeah, or if you're not going to pay him. Then the flip side with Wiggins, though, is I wouldn't want to enter Wiggins if I got to pay him $30 million this year. I got to pay him $30 next year. I got to pay him $30 after that if he picks up the option. I'm not crazy about Andrew Wiggins because to me, it's the same reputation he had when he came into the league. He just floats in and out of games outside of the 2022 title run. Steph doesn't have a number two. That's the other thing is I don't agree with what's going on, Bill, in Phoenix, but at least I don't think it's going to work. At least they picked a direction. At least they know what they want to do. Golden State is like, All right, well, we want to be in with Kominga for the future, but we want to compete right now with staff, either go all in or just blow the thing up and start the rebuild.

I don't agree with.

There's no blow up, though. Currie is the only real trade asset they have. I don't know what the other move is. They almost got marketing, they almost got Paul George, and they're probably thanking their lucky stars. Neither of those traits happen because they would have given up everything.

They're being fooled right now, I believe. That's what it is. I think they beat Oklahoma City, and then all of a sudden they think, Oh, man, all we need to do is just add something. So they have a conundrum right now. And the only reason they're going to keep winning games like that is because of the coaching of Steve Kerr, because of the greatness of Steph Curry. That's why. So they'll beat good teams, and you'll start to think, Oh, okay, maybe. Maybe we add somebody. I think it's a mistake. I do. I've said that. I think it's a mistake. I know Curry will never give in to being traded, but I just think it's a mistake. I think their run is over with this group. But again, I just think that they're going to win some games, man. They're going to beat some teams, and you're going to say, maybe they can do it again, because they did it a couple of years ago. So it's not like they don't reach back to something and say, We've done it before. And I think that's part of their problem.

Yeah, but the problem is in In 2022, when they did it, the league was completely different. I just don't think the league was nearly as good. There was some injury luck with some teams that went sideways, and they snuck in. They rode Curry, who I think was at a slightly different point in his career, too, in '22, versus down. I think that 22 team would not be able to do that in 25 with how deep the league is and how good it is. I agree. I'm torn on it because, Justin, you remember in the early '90s with the Celts when we had the big three and the question was always, How long do we keep these guys? Well, we got to keep these guys together. They won titles for us. The Celts were able to rebuild on the fly a little bit with Reggie Lewis, who was a godsend, Brian Shaw, D. Brown, they had Ed Pinkney. They had this cool young old thing, and it was pretty good. They weren't going to win the title, but they were in the mix. They had two really good seasons, and then Bird and Mikael South just couldn't hold up.

I don't even think the Warriors are close to that level. So if I'm them, it's either a question of, do we owe this to Curry because we're never trading them? If you feel that way, then you got to do the Butler deal and give up whatever and try to hope that you catch lightning in a bottle with him. Or you got to think about trading Curry, and I just don't think they're going to do it.

I got a question for you. I got a question for you, Bill.

Yeah.

Say if Golden State had two players in front of them to trade for, Derek White or Devon Booker, who Who do you think they want?

Well, Devin Booker is a better basketball player.

I saw something where you had Derek White being a better trade chip.

No, I had Devon Booker in the top 20. He was not. You saw the wrong thing. See, you get fooled by social media Well, I just wanted to know. Go on your Twitter, guys.

Explain to me.

Okay, all right. I had Devon Booker in the top 20.

Of course. Now, back to your other point before Eddie gave you some bad information. It's a classic fake news from Eddie.

Hold up, muscle nose. Hold Put the camera back on Justin Termine. How dare you say that? The only reason I brought it up is because somebody told me that's what was said.

That's not what I said. I told you where Devon Booker- Yes, it was. No, I didn't. I said he was behind Derek White. I might as well have just said Bill's a massive moron.

He said he was behind. He said he was behind a muscle nose.

I did not tell you that. Muscle nose.

I had him number 16. I did have him behind Jalen Williams and Cade Cunningham. I did have him behind Evan Mobley and Jaron Jackson. I think that's fair.

Jalen Williams, really?

Well, Jalen Williams is on a rookie contract. Would you rather pay Jalen Williams nine million a year?

That's the whole point of a trade asset. So it's not about talent.

No, it's about talent. It's about time of their career. It's about the salary. It's all those things. It's basically, you're telling me Phoenix wouldn't rather have Jalen Williams on a rookie contract than Devon Booker for 50 million a year. It would open up. There's no way.

It's the same exact thing between you and Eddie. Serious thinks you're more talented, obviously, but you would cost them more money, so they settle for Eddie because he's making a lot less money. Does that explaining it well?

What makes you think that you would be the host and he would be the analyst?

Well, I'm not because I'm a lot cheaper.

We're both cheaper. Hey, Bill, you see the ego on this crazed animal? He's putting you in the analyst seat.

When you're an analyst in this term, you can have an ego. That's fine.

It's the Waterbus show. It's the Waterbus. Exactly. Wait, I'm going to state really quick. Let's say Butler goes back there. Let's say they get 50 cents, 40 cents of the dollar. Let's say it's Wiggins, Looney, and Schroeder, and some protected pick, and that's a trade. Miami is like, Please take them, give them away. And Butler flips the switch. He's done a couple of times this year to show everybody he still has it. Does that team intrigue you at all, or is that just a- Only because I don't think the West- At least we'll make the playoffs.

No, it intrigues me a little bit, but Not necessarily just because they're great, just because who in the West is dominant. How much faith do you have in Oklahoma City? As good as they are, we've never seen them win more than one playoff series. Shane Gildas Alexander is still a young guy who, as great as he is, hasn't really given us anything tremendous in the postseason. Is Shaq going to be healthy? Teams with size have beat them up. Dallas has their number. The Lakers, I think, aren't as talented. They match up well. Anything is possible. But I think it's just because of the weakness of the Western Conference. I don't know what you guys think.

No, I think the West is wide open. I do. You got your talent at the top, but I think anything can happen. So that's why I think the teams in the West are going to be trying to be aggressive in the following week before the trade deadline to see if they can get that key player.

And Bill, you touched on this with Goldsbury a couple of weeks ago. This topic of the West being better than the East, that is not the case this year. The Eastern Conference is better because the teams at the top are better. Boston, Cleveland, New York are three of the top four teams, I think, in the entire NBA. There's one in the Western Conference, OKC. So Cleveland, New York, Boston have to go through each other. Okc doesn't have to do that. East is tougher than the West.

Yeah, I look at it like ceilings. Like your regular season ceiling versus your playoff ceiling. So I see a team like Houston, and I'm really impressed by them. A young team, a weird collection of assets. They barely have even one All-Star, but when you watch them, it makes sense together. I don't know if there's another gear for them. If they're playing the same team six, seven times in two weeks, I think they'd get easy. But when you think about Boston, Cleveland, especially the Knicks, there's another level I feel like they can go. The question for me with OKC, because I think everybody's going to defend them the same way. They're just going to trap Shay. They're going to send two guys at him. They're going to make Jalen Williams and some of these other guys basically have the ball in big moments, a lot like how people are defending the Celtics. The smart teams of the Celtics are trapping Jason at the top. They're sending two guys at him. They really want Jalen Brown to decide the games now because he's not playing that well. I just don't know if Jalen Williams can win four straight playoffs in a row for you.

How is Shea going to figure out how do I be regular season Shea when I'm just seeing this constantly? I think the West is open is my point.

I think Oklahoma City is vulnerable because they're small. Even if they bring Chad and they have hard and I still say they're small because they're going to play small ball. Even with those guys, they're going to rotate to small guys. And I just never see that really working in the finals. The Celtics people looked at them, they weren't small. No, we had length everywhere. Dylan Brown looks like a mini Hercules. People see these dudes up close, they'll see how big they are. And so it's a different animal. But you brought up Houston. I don't think Houston is getting out of the West to the finals, but I would bet It's funny that Austin wouldn't want to see them if they were on the other end of that. Because the one team I think matches up with them with physicality and a nastiness is Houston.

You doke it the other day, knows all the weaknesses I mean, they're Jalen Brown, and he knows what Brown can do. He knows how to defend Tatum. That's another thing in that matchup.

The Clippers game, I think, unfortunately, was a bad game for the Celtics long term because The Clippers' coaching in that game was so smart. They basically laid out the blueprint or reminded everybody the blueprint of what to do against the Celtics. Van Gundi was amazing in that, both of those guys. Now Houston was basically doing a lot of the same stuff that the Clippers did in that game. If you have big swings, you can protect the rim a little bit, and you just keep blitzing Tatum and making everyone else beat you. Basically, what it's going to come down to is, can Jalen Brown get back to where he was last year? Because last year, we were arguing about 1A, 1B with Tateum and Brown. That argument's over. It's 1, 2, and we need, can Jalen get back to 1B?

He will. I think that... I honestly believe, Bill, these guys aren't built to get deep and go repeat, repeat, repeat like it used to be. It's just something that the guys in the '80s and the '90s had that these guys just don't have. And it's not all their fault. They make a ton of money, man. Even guys in the '80s and '80s, they had to push because they needed more money. They weren't even paid highly. So they had a reason to go for it every year. They needed that playoff money. These guys don't need the playoff money. And so they have to be pushed. And I think what's going to happen with Boston is when it gets after April, I mean, not April, March, and they can see the end of it, we're going to see the Boston team that we saw last Last year. I think Jalen is going to wrap it up or Tatum is going to wrap it up because now they can see the end. So I am not down on Boston. I haven't been all year. I've made excuses for them because... And think of that, I'm making excuses for teams you all love.

We're not down on them either. I'm just- No, I agree.

We're concerned. As far as the fatigue, I don't even want to hear that as an excuse because I was so anti all those guys going to the Olympics. Then they had to do Abu Dhabi. So that's not shocking to me that they're struggling. But I hated the fact they went to the Olympics. That's why I can't stand the Olympics. And then I know you love them, Bill. I hate them because I think I don't care- I'm a Patriot, Justin.

I'm sorry. I care about my country.

Yeah, I care more about the Celtics or my NBA teams in Denver and Jokuj doing well. But no, it drives me nuts. Philadelphia fan should be irate that Embiid's not playing. Well, that's true. Yeah, but the thing that calms me the most is what other team can give you what Porzingas is doing right now. So as bad as other things are going, I was at that game last night, Porzingas Zink is 34 points. I think he had 29 in the first half. If he's playing anything close to the level he's played at the last couple of weeks and stays healthy, to me, they're still easily.

Keyword healthy. That's for every team. For him, I'm saying, if he's healthy, they are a major problem. For him, it's just staying healthy and how they use him.

Well, what if I said this to you? The 2025 champion will come from the East.

I can push back a little bit on that because what I can say is, as what you all used to say about the West, it was top heavy. They had a lot of talent. And so by the time they got to the finals, they were tired.

You got fatigue.

It happened in the '80s with the Lakers. I can say the same thing with the Lakers. With the East right now. And those three teams at the top. And just say, for instance, say, for example, Philly gets healthy, and they win a first-round series. And all All of a sudden, it's a problem.

We're back in the matrix.

It's a problem.

I'm just making a point, though. Don't say it win. No, what I'm saying is- Just say Philadelphia pushes Boston or Cleveland to six games when typically it would be a sweep in the first round. Then you got to go play- They don't even have to win a series.

Just they push them.

Say, for example, they end up playing the Celtics in the first round. Like, Boston plays Philadelphia. They got to go six games when typically that's four or five. Then they got to play New York. That goes six or seven. Then they got to play Cleveland, six or seven. Meanwhile, Oklahoma City's cruising through the West. They're a little beat up.

I mean, we've seen- By the way, what you just laid out was the reason the Lakers won all those titles in the '80s because they never had to play anybody. The East was just killing each other, and the Lakers were Wow, we got to play the Spurs in the Western Finals.

They had to play some things.

Stop.

Please, they didn't have to go through the Pistons, through the Sixers, through the next- Because they were talented.

The Lakers were a talented team. They were a dominant team. Just like the Bulls.

With the But then they had a hard road to get there.

Just like the Bulls were a dominant team in the East, but it was teams that were good in the East. They had to go through people. It was teams that were good in the East when the Bulls were running through the East. It was teams that were good in the East when LeBron was running through the East. You always don't want to give that. You don't want to give a credit because they're waiting.

You don't want to give a credit because they're waiting. That's your worst point.

That's your worst point you've made. Yes.

It was teams that were good because what happened- That was a runway to the finals.

Yes, it was.

Yeah, because he was dominant.

It was more impressive that the Celtics in the '80s went to four consecutive finals than LeBron in the Eastern Conference going to East in the 2000s. That's how he was in the Eastern.

He was dominant.

He dominated all those teams. That's what happened. Those '80s Lakers had two rivals, both of whom flamed immediately, the '86 Rockets, who were the absolute all-time kryptonite team for them, and that team implodes with drugs. Then the Mavs, that same era, get Roy Tarpeley stays healthy, and they actually have to go through those two teams. As you know, I hate the Lakers. The luck that they had in the '80s was unbelievable with their opponents.

How do you live in LA and you hate the Lakers? How do you live in LA and you hate the Lakers?

I've come to grips with it a while ago.

That's amazing. There's a lot to hate. That's like living in a 10,000-square-foot house, but you hate the girl and she looked like a team. I mean, he really... I mean, he come.

I would lean toward the East to produce our champion, but I'm also not tied to it for a bunch of reasons. One, all the stuff you laid out about how competitive it's going to be. But two, there's still some West teams. I'm not crossing up Denver at all. I know they've had a goofy year. I'm just not crossing them off yet because of how good your. I'm just not. I'm not.

I mean, I essentially... You know what? I'm a little higher than I was on them a couple of weeks ago, but everybody's making a big deal about Jamal Murray all of a sudden waking up. I mean, he's been better than he was at the beginning of the year.

He's been definitely 100% better We talked about him a month ago on your show, and I was terrified that he's better.

But he's also not a high level number two. He's playing okay.

No, but he's playing better.

He's playing better, but he still needs to be better. He's making a max contract. Okay, hold on.

All right, Justin Terman. You say he's not a high level But when they won the title, was he high level? Absolutely.

He's 27 again. I thought he was better during that run than Kyrie was during the run.

He could become high level then.

Hopefully, but we haven't seen it for a couple of years.

Well, but we're seeing it now. I think, again, like I said, I think- Not to a high level.

He's been better, but he hasn't been great.

But he's grown to it. He's been pretty good. He's got 30 plus games left. So my point is where he is right now and how he's trending, he's getting back to himself. I hope so. And Bill, I've never gotten off the bandwagon with Denver. He knows, Justin knows this. They have too much talent. You all a couple of years ago said they had the best starting five in the basketball, and they still got those same guys.

No, they don't.

They still got the starting Well, they turned Brown.

Brown is actually probably better than Calwil Pope.

I would say Brown is out playing a continuous- It doesn't matter.

They took away from the bench when they... People go like, Oh, they got rid of continuous- Now you're going back to the bench. Christian Brown is better. Well, Christian Brown has to go in the starting lineup to take somebody off their bench.

Justin, I hear what you say about the bench. I'm not arguing that. But Christian Brown is a better player than Contabius Calwil Pope, and he's showing it right now.

That's fine, but he was on the bench. So now the bench is Their starting five is just the same five and better right now.

The bitch has to get better, I agree. But the starting five that want a title, they're the same guys.

The league is better. I just think it's so admirable for the very small market Denver Nuggets to patch together this team when they have so many... Oh, no, that's actually Denver is a big city, my bad.

And they're owned by a very wealthy group.

They're owned by the guy who's married to the Walmart family. Exactly. And somehow they can't get a ninth or 10th man.

They're trading three second round pics just to get rid of the contract they signed Reggie Jackson to. So now they have no assets to get better. Even if Jokich was whining like Anthony Davis or LeBron, they couldn't do anything about it because they have nothing to trade. So congratulations.

All he needs. All Jokich needs is to get to the finals and does not have to play against Karl Anthony Towns, who owns his lunch.

Oh, stop it.

Yeah.

No, that's right.

He owns his lunch. He can't even score on Can't lock them down twice.

He locked him down twice. He got him found trouble yesterday.

He got him found trouble.

He took him out of the line.

He had pedestrian numbers. Karl Anthony Towns is locking him up.

Way to watch the game last night.

Can I ask you guys about one US team?

I'm going to whisper this one. Clippers? Is there something there? Is it a playoff team? If Kawhi can actually start to look like K.

I saw it the other Okay. I saw him the other day. He did a few things in that game that made me say, If he's back to back... I mean, he pushed the ball off the court, and he looked fast, just laterally. That's what I'm looking at. They're afraid to play him, and I get it.

They took about the full quarter. Is that a 28-minute limit?

It's like 20 minutes you're out. I was glad they did, because who knows? We might not have beat him the other night. But no, he looked good, man. That's all I'm going to say. But he's done this before.

Justin, they have Zubats, who's turned into not an All-Star center, but he was maybe in the borderline stuff list. Carded Justin Powell, Kawhi, all these role players. And I think they have a top three coaching staff. Exactly.

You mentioned just about everything. They can defend with the best teams in the NBA. Ty Lou to me- Really smart. You want to say Eric Spolcher is the best head coach? All right. Well, Ty Lou is right on his heels. I think he's the second or third best head coach in the sports. So you're right there. I mean, a lot of us in the media are going to look like absolute morons if they make a deep run because we crushed them. But yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if they made a run.

See, Justin cares about that more than... We're not going to bat a thousand. We're going to get some stuff wrong. There was no sign, none, that the Clippers were going to be a possible play-off team. You were worried about Kauai. It was Kawhi, but also they lost Paul George, who was important for them, and they replaced him with a bunch of dudes. Then when you watch them, the team makes sense. Derrick Jones is a really good ad for them. Yeah, he really is. Then you think, Kawhi comes in. All he's doing is taking Batum's minutes and some Terrence Mann minutes. It's like, this is legit. Even if he plays 25 minutes a game, Harden, I still feel like the right teams can take him out because he doesn't have the same burst that he did. If he's going against a Houston or a Memphis, teams with young big wings that they can throw at him, I think it's hard for him to get his shots. But I'll tell you another thing, and I've talked about it before, but they have... Eddie, have you done a game at Intuit yet?

Oh, yeah.

Two games, three games there. They have a borderline homecourt advantage now, which is nuts. They never had anything before.

They got off to a slow start, and I think it's just them getting familiar with their own court. But since then, they've been pretty good. I think they've only lost four games early, and they've only lost four games since. No, that is a tremendous advantage. That wall is ridiculous, man.

You did You did see LeBron airball a free-tour, I think, with the wall there.

Right. I think that team is really interesting to me. The Spurs, if they got Fox, which we should talk about, just I want to watch this next two Wemby months because they're 20 and 24 right now, and somehow they're only five games out of the five. Who did they give up, though? That's the problem. Well, that's the thing. It's probably a lot of picks. Actually, let's talk about that. We'll take one more break. Darren Fox. I was taping a pot on Tuesday with Versillo, and then all of a sudden this trade thing came out, and I was like, boy, that's weird. That's like, he has a specific team. And then it turns out he wants to go to the Spurs. I haven't talked about this on my pod. I know you've probably talked about it in your show, Justin. I had great career move by Dieran Fox trying to go to the Spurs. This is like trying to join the hit TV show that's going to be the number one show on TV for the next 10 years. I get why he He wants to do it. They need somebody like him. The question for me is, what is the timetable for the Spurs?

Do you even need to do this now? What's the point of it? You have no chance to win a title. If he wants to play for you this bad, why not just wait till he's a free agent? Why am I giving him stuff for him now?

He's trying to get out ahead of it, right? Because everybody's going to want to go there. So it's a smart decision by him if that's what he wants to do.

If Eddie could still play, Eddie would be like, I'm here. I'll stand in the corner.

Every single player in the league should want that. All the broadcasters like us, we should want to go down there and cover them and just be their play-by-play guys because it's going to be fun for 15 years where you get to watch that every single night. So it's smart by Dieran Fox. Now, The question is, is it smart by San Antonio to go out there and get him? What is he? 27? So by the time Wembenyama is ready, and I think Wembenyama, I guess, is ready right now, but I guess the other pieces because you need more than just boxing Wembenyama. They're pretty far away. But is he even the guy that you think fits in perfectly with him? I mean, he shoots in the low 30s in regards to three-point percentage. He's not a particularly high-level defender. He hasn't impacted winning in Sacramento. So I don't know if that's my first choice, De Aaron Fox.

You automatically become a better defender with that dude behind you. Oh, of course.

You would be a good defender with him behind you.

I got to do is stay in front of your man. I don't know about that. De Aaron Fox is so good at that. But here's where the fit is perfect. And I brought this up the other day. When Fox with Sabones was really good, but the problem is they're both left-hand. Now, you're coming off that screen with now Wimbanyama, Now he's going off to his right, and there, Fox is to his left. It's a better pass. It's an easier fluid pass. It's all of that. And I think Fox is looking at that as well. A lot of times, he and Sabona ran into each other a little because of that dynamic. But now, this dude coming off left, and you got to agree, he's one of the best guys in the paint in regards to being a guard, and now he's got that size to really initiate stuff to. I think that's one of the reasons why he's looking at it, and I think he's the perfect blend for him. And I think even Chris Paul, at times, has a tough time with that in regards to him. Because Chris is more like a right-handed guy as well.

So I think the nuance there, man, is going to be really good if he's able to get there.

Plus, Fox, they were a two seed two years ago. He was the best guy in that team. So it's not like teams haven't succeeded with him. I guess the way I'm looking at it, the risk would be, if we don't do this now, what if somebody trumps him? What if somebody else trades for him? What if we lose this opportunity? Then who are the other guys out there? Because they clearly need somebody like this. They need somebody, give them the car keys, let him run shit. It's like you start looking around the league, who else is it? Like, Garland's not leaving Cleveland. Garland was the guy to get last summer, and they probably should have tried to overpower them. Do you wait on Hope maxi, Hope Philly? He just goes so far sideways that maybe they would just want a complete rebuild. You go through all the rosters, and he's the best fit for what they need.

He probably will never leave because he's from Texas. So he wants to be in Texas. You want players on your team that want to be in a certain region, especially if it's San Antonio.

Why would you leave once you get there? I mean, you're going to be winning. You're going to be playing on national television every day.

Okay. But Penny Hardaway and Shaq broke up. Sephora Marbury left Kevin Garnett.

Well, that was the worst one. I'll never get over that one.

That's right at the beginning of their career. Fox is now to play in Sacramento, lose a bunch of games, then get hooked up for Wembenyama. Not if he chooses to go there. But you were rattling off names, Phil. Luca is a free agent in, what, two years? All you hear about is Miami. Why is it only Miami that can get these guys?

Oh, he culture. He culture is red hot right now.

But you hear that name linked to Miami. Why can't Luca be linked to playing with Wembenyama?

Because that makes Luca look like a loser. Honestly, he's just going to... This is the same shit we make.

I know, but think of it, LeBron took shit for that for eight years.

You need to stop there.

No, he went to Wade was one of the three best players in the league when he went there.

And LeBron was the best player on the team until Wade figured it out and stopped trying to do everything the next year, and they went two back to back. How dare you even bring that analogy up.

Wow. Wade was probably the third best player in the league?

And the best player on the team that year, at least in the finals.

Maybe second? In the 2011 playoffs, he was the best part of the team. Exactly. He wasn't chopped liver. He already had a title.

And Shaq wasn't chopped liver either. Wade, don't sniff a finals victory back then if it for Shaq and Alonso morning. So you all stopped.

I mean, we agree with that. That's fine. But he was still a top five player.

So if you're San Antonio and you can trade for Fox, keep Castle, because Castle is just... I'm not even discussing him. Not discussing Wemby. And you can potentially keep Vassell. And then you add Fox, and I don't care. Take your pick. What picks do you want? I would probably do it as long as it wasn't an insane amount of picks. I don't know what these teams are doing with all their picks.

If they can keep Sohan, they need to keep him. If they can keep him, man.

Atlanta. They have Atlanta's pick, right? The upcoming draft as well. So that's going to get more value because Jalen Johnson's hurt. So that gets even more value.

I really like that Atlanta team, too. I thought they were like a six-seed range sleeper, and then they just can't get healthy.

They beat the Celtics twice in Boston. They beat Cleveland. They're good. I think multiple times.

Because Trey is having a great year. He was a snub. Let's just put it where it is. Trey was a snup. Trey was a snub because the way he's played, he's changed his game. He realized he's not Steph. He stopped playing like Steph, and he started playing like a point guard. He's had a very good year, man. I think he's a snub in the East as well.

So is the league more fun if there's a Fox to San Antonio trade this year? I think it is. We basically sacrificed Sacramento as a playoff team and replaced them with San Antonio because I think they'd make a run.

What did they get Chris Paul?

Sacramento? Yeah. If Chris Paul was in the trade.

Yeah.

You think Sacramento could still patch it together? They'd have an older team, right?

They'd have the Derozen CP. I think anywhere Chris Paul goes, they're dangerous.

Why'd you try to trade him? Why'd you trade him from Phoenix? Why'd you sign How do you think you were laughing that deal?

I wasn't the GM.

Telling us how good Yusuf Nerkich was.

What do you mean me? Why are you blaming me?

Remember that year when Eddie thought Yusuf Nerkich was good? We had to like, kindly remind him over and over again.

That's Look, guys, obviously, you guys, I have to eat crow because you all can get on me based on what's going on. But I will say this. Do you honestly think that he was able to play the way that he can play? He's a rebounder. That's what he is. Nerkich? Yeah, he's one of the best rebounders.

He should be on a lottery team.

That's his destiny. He's one of the best rebounders in the game.

He might be on this year, a lottery team.

And that's what he is. I've never looked at him any more than that. The biggest problem for Nerkich, and I hope he improves it because it seems like he probably he will get moved, is he's just got to make... I don't know what it is. He's got to find out wherever a Pete Newell protégé is, and he just got to spend a whole summer with him.

Eddie, he's in his 30s. It's not happening.

Give up the ghost. But that's a ground. That's a ground game.

This is too much Nerkage talk already.

Does he talk to you, Eddie, or does he only not talk to Budenthalzer?

No, he doesn't. Are you still talking to him? He's already packed. He goes to the Suns games, and he has all his suitcases in case the trade happens.

Well, obviously, it's not good when you're not playing and you're not talking to the coach. I can't even run from that. It's not good. But I will say this, he's been very good on the bench over there. It hasn't been a negative.

Well, let's give him a medal of honor. Well, I'm just saying, 20 million years.

They said the bench. Out of a pass.

Other teams are watching.

He still takes more free throws than DeAndre's right.

Other teams are watching. In all fairness- So he's doing it the right way. He's doing it the right way.

In all fairness, even though he doesn't play, he still takes more free throws than DeAndre ate.

I saw that stat. What is he at? 1.

1 Well, no, he might go back to Portland.

The thing that ticked me off is, Eddie and I talked about that on the show two days ago, and then StatMues came out with that stat the day after we talked about it. They stole it from us.

Yeah.

Hey, he might be back in Portland, guys. You never know.

Eddie, can we go back to Webby for a second? What year did you enter the league? '85?

'81.

'81?

The Celtics smartly drafted Ames ahead of them.

Thank you, Red Arb. Hey, Bill, you know this. That was the worst draft the Celtics ever had. Really was. They had a chance to draft me.

I remember this story.

They messed up. They drafted Ames. She made an All-Star team.

You never- No, we messed up the other two picks, though.

Cost you all another title, too.

Oh, my God. Bird would have put Eddie in the Hall of Fame. He'd be like, Michael Cooper. How many in the Hall of Fame?

Without a doubt.

My God, how did this happen?

Bill, without a doubt, he would have.

He was on cancer. All right, so you've been in the week since 1981 in various capacities. Have you ever seen anything remotely approaching Wemby in person? No.

He's the biggest freak of nature I've ever seen. Now, I used to say that about Mark E. I used to say it about Manupo, who obviously not the talent that Wemby is. But when you look at a dude like that. I even said it one time about Joel Emby. Justin and I was in the summer league standing next to him, and I didn't realize how massive he was. But Wemby? No, I've never seen anything like that. I'm serious, Look, when you can dump, he's in the warm-up line, dunking flat-footed. I've never seen that.

When you're on the plane after a game, are all the Suns players and coaches just talking about him for the next half hour?

Is that one of those? Probably with our plane, they sit way up in the front. We fly one of them big giant monstrosity.

So you're not even near them.

Never even seen.

They're going to invite you for the poker games?

Never even seen. No. Never seen. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that amazing? You can a plane and you never see the player.

Jesus. Well, in your day, you're sitting in airports, you're connecting flights.

Oh, sitting there gambling with the players. I'm like, Please, yes. With the coaches. It was like everybody. Yeah, it's not like that anymore.

People are coming up to you in the gates. That was always such a fascinating era.

Yeah, it was.

Just eating McDonald's with a two-hour connection in Kansas City, trying to go somewhere else.

Hold on. Getting on a flight, flabbing in the morning, and some guy sitting next to you, and he wants to have a conversation. You don't even know who he is.

Right. So are you a basketball player? We should talk about the Suns. You'd Because you weren't on Justin's show today, so he didn't get the privilege, pleasure, honor of your reaction to the ESPN story about some of the Sun stuff. My take, and I've said this before, is I actually think the Suns, the team they built, is a team that really made sense in the 2010s, but the league is just way better now. That star system, which a bunch of teams have where they have the two really good guys, it just doesn't work the way it did. You really need seven to nine guys who can be good at all times, built around the two. I don't know how they... They're down this road down. I don't know how they fix it. I know they freed up some pics, but is this even fixable, in your opinion? You're at every game.

I think it is. I've said this time and time again, just watching them all year. They're the biggest problem. It's not the opponent, it's them. What I mean by it is if you look statistically at the numbers when they went, if they don't turn it over, and I mean, you're going to turn the ball over, but I mean 14, 15, you're giving up 18, 20 points off turnovers. The games, they don't do that, they win. The games, they rebound, at least stay close on the offensive glass. They win because they normally out shoot the opponent. We have lost a numerous amount of games this year where we've shot 49, 50 % and lost. Why? Because the opponent got 18 more field goal attempts. And that is the issue with them. It's so simple, and we see it. We've seen it over the stretch when they've been winning. We see it over the stretch when they don't turn it over and they rebound, they win. And they know it, but they just can't. It's just like last night. Last night, pretty much had the game under control. Start turning it over. It's that part that drives you nuts.

And I think that's fixable to me. That's fixable. Because say what you want about Bradley Bill, people say he doesn't fit and all that, dude, playing his butt off off the bench, man. He literally is trying to defend, and he's literally scoring the at will. And he's obviously one of our most efficient players. So it's that part that drives me nuts calling the game. And obviously, I can't go all crazy, but it's just like I'm watching it and I'm like, Dude, just take one more dribble to the right and throw it into the post. Why are you... It's just simple things that they get in trouble with. And it's just really it's like it drives you nuts to watch it at times.

What do you see, Justin?

Yeah. I think Eddie hit it on his head with the rebounding. They might have the worst center rotation. We've talked about this on the text. They might have the worst center rotation in the entire NBA, so they can't rebound. That's an issue.

So we can rebound now, though, Justin.

They nick Ritches. Yeah, now you got nick Ritches.

It's like getting Will Chamberlain in 1965. Exactly.

I mean, he almost gave you a 2020 game the other day, so it's improved a little bit. But yeah, rebounding is an issue. I mean, they're one of the five worst defensive teams in the NBA. And I, too, agree that it's fixable again because I don't have much confidence in the teams at the top of the Western Conference outside of Oklahoma City. I'm the moron that picked them to go to the finals this year. Eddie picked them to win the title like three straight years. Then he didn't pick them this year. I picked them to go to the finals and lose. So I think it's fixable this year. But the issue I have is long term. You don't win this year, like say, get Jimmy Butler and rectify it. It's not going to get better next year. It's not going to get the better the year after that, and you're stuck with what you have. So I think like this year, they could still make a pretty decent run. But after that, moving forward, they might the biggest mess in the NBA. And why did they make that trade for three different picks if they didn't have something lined up?

They turned a 2031 pick that's going to be valuable. I thought when they made that deal, okay, well, they know they're going to turn it into Jimmy Butler or some other big piece. They've done that They don't have anything lined up.

Trade that line at all.

Trade that. No, I know. But if they don't make a move bill, is that malpractice? It's pretty weird.

I had the same reaction. You don't do that because they basically turn the $2 bill into a dollar and two quarters. You don't do that unless you know you're about to do something. Then everybody's like, All right, can't wait to see what it is. A week past.

If you just wanted Zack Levine, you could trade, say, Bradley Beal and attach the 2031 pick. Now, he wouldn't go to Chicago, apparently, but the point It's like that would get it done, perhaps, because that pick is so valuable.

My guess is they're trying to use one of the picks to dump Nerkich on another team, right? Then maybe he's in a three-team or a four-team trade, whatever. But either way, once you dump him, you have more flexibility to do the next move. And I'm sure there has to be some master plan, but the sons have been- Me personally, I think that we're a physical player away from really being competitive this year in the play And that's at the forward position, whoever that guy can be.

I just don't think it has to be a guy that's high-level guy. I just think it's a guy that rebounds the ball. If we get more field goal attempts, then the opponent will win. I will put anything on that with the scores that we have. If we can rebound and don't allow second-chance points and get the same amount of field goal attempts, I think we'll win most games. I think that's their weakness right now is the rebounding. If they can shore that up, and I'm pretty sure that's what they're trying to do, then I think it helps. That's all.

Tough one for me because that was one of my best bets set into the air was Phoenix over 47 now. Eddie, you've watched the rant now for almost two years, up close, doing every game. Is there anything that stood out that you just had no idea until you're watching him night after night?

He's just relentless, man. When I tell you, he's just relentless. It's never an accident to be that good offensively. It's not an accident. I'll just give you all a story real quick. We had a large event, and it was at the practice facility about a month and a half ago. And everybody was dressed up and everything, and they had a little mingle thing going on with the fans and all that, and they had the baskets down. The whole entire night, he was shooting. I was blown away. The whole entire night, he was over there shooting. People come over and talk to him and all that, but he shot the entire night. And I'm saying to myself, Dude, Why do you have to keep shooting? We know it's ingrained in him.

It's like something he was doing from age six. That's just part of his life every day. Yeah.

The impact, I don't know. I've not mentioned it to him yet because I've been able to talk to him since then. But it's like that blew me away. It's like, that's why this dude is this good offensively. He understands his craft and he knows what he has to do. But no, the shot making, man, watching it from afar and all of that, yeah. But no, just to see it every day. It's ridiculous, man.

I keep waiting for signs of slippage with him because he's been in the league for 18 years now, Justin? Yeah. There's moments when he looks a little stiffer than maybe when you go back and you watch the early OKC stuff, and he's just such a crazy freak seven foot. It's a whiff, stiffer, but he has all the same shots, and he's so smart. It's almost like what was happening with LeBron near the end, when you just know where to go, where to be, you can read everything, and you know exactly what your best play is. I don't really see a lot of slippage. I don't know how much longer this goes.

The thing I don't understand is the talent from an individual perspective. I haven't seen a drop off. I just don't understand why it doesn't result in team success ever since he left Golden State. He goes to Brooklyn. You saw him play the Celtics in the first round. He did get outplayed by Tatum in all four of those games. That was the second year.

The first year, though, they had the bad luck with the injuries. That's the big what-if.

Exactly. With his foot on the line and all that type of stuff. They'd probably go on to maybe win a championship because they were facing Phoenix in the finals. They would beat Phoenix. Then he goes to Phoenix and they've been unable to get out of the second round. They get swept last year. It's like It's weird that it hasn't translated as a team success, even though he's played with talented players. I will add something just like an individual story because Eddie and I crushed him when he went to Golden State. I know you were a little bit easier on him. I go back and forth with him on Twitter, and I've been critical of aspects of his career and his decision making, even though he's an amazing talent. We interviewed him last year, and I've had a lot of stars who I'll be critical of. They won't even look at me like Durant comes up and jokes around about it. We laugh about some of the stuff that I for him in the past. Answers every question, jokes around, gives you a high five, says hello whenever you see him. I just love the way the guy handles himself.

This is something Eddie said about when we talk about LeBron once, when you think like when somebody gets to the league, did they maximize whatever the potential of what they could have been? I think LeBron is the best example of this. Whatever you thought the ceiling was and he had the most expectations, just about anybody, and then he hit all the expectations. I think Durant It's like that, too. And yet he's always going to have this thing about switching teams, and that's going to become part of the legacy. But what's interesting to me about legacy is just watching Vince Carter. He gets this Jersey retired in Toronto and in New Jersey. He's in New Jersey for four and a half years. I just don't think anybody gives a shit after a while. Even Toronto, where you would think at any fan base would be the maddest at a player who left. And even they were like, Yeah, we don't care. And I just think when Durant when he retires, everybody's like, Oh, what's going to happen? Who's going to retire his number? I think he'll get his number retired at OKC and Golden State. I think his legacy will be fine.

At the rate they do it, they'll probably do it in Brooklyn.

Brooklyn might. If they're going to do Vince Carter, maybe KD is next.

Exactly. The Vince Carter one really bothers me. Are they going to give Jimmy Butler a Jersey retirement? Are they going to put a statue of a Jimmy Butler? Maybe.

I'm not rolling anything out. The Vince Carter thing, I couldn't believe.

Paul George is upset because he never got a tribute I don't know if you saw that. He came out and ripped the face.

I saw that. He tried to force a trade out in Indiana for a year.

Exactly. You treat the organization that way. You leave them high and dry and you want to be honored. I just don't understand. There's a reward for handling yourself the right way in the city, and then you'll get the honor. If you leave in a wrong way, then you shouldn't get it.

I think people have a forgiving heart. I think we've had friends in our lives that we probably thought we'd never be friends with them again and years go by. We get a softer heart and we give in to the temptation of maybe.

So you're telling me I'll like you in 20 years? In 20 years, I'll like you then?

Well, you got a lot of people that's been divorced and they still get along. I just think fans, I think over a period of time, I think they just remember the good times and they forget.

It is funny. It is crazy how that works out. The Toronto thing really blew my mind.

It's like you can quit on a team and then you can get honored. I don't understand that.

Yeah, I get like there were some good times in it, too, but I guess there's a statute of limitations for all this stuff. But back to KD, I just think all that stuff washes away. He won two titles. He's one of the best either 15 or 20 players ever, depending on what your list is. That's It's just going to be the legacy.

But 100% because people only count stuff. You go back in the 1960s, all they do is count 1970s, 1970s. They just look at basketball reference. They don't look at the context behind anything. So, yeah, it's going to matter maybe to me and you how he won his championship. In 50 years, they're just going to count it on basketball reference with absolutely no clue.

But I'll just say this, and I've told him this, I was upset that he went there only because I wanted OKC to beat Golden State. That's why I was upset. And I knew him going to Golden State, he was going to win championships. But Golden State was not beating LeBron if he did not go there. And I think that's what he can carry. And I think Golden State fans know that. So I think, yeah, they're going to retire his jersey. They're going to treat him like a king there because they knew they were in trouble. They knew that they weren't going to beat that Cleveland team the next couple of years.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. They weren't. Golden State won 73 games. Curry was hurt in that 2016 playoffs. In Cleveland, the next two years, Kyrie, LeBron got rocky. Kyrie left. I don't know. Stuff got weird in Cleveland.

The other thing is, I always look at it, if you replace Durant with that. I mean, even go back to another Golden State, great. If you put Rick Berry on that Golden State team, they're definitely winning the title if you replace Durant with Barry. That's what bothers me.

Rick Berry in his '60s or Rick Berry went- Maybe Rick Berry in his '60s.

Maybe even then, but definitely during the prime of his career- I'm saying the same thing.

I agree. It was an automatic win, but they weren't going to have that automatic win because if he did not go there, they'd learn.

Maybe not. But it's just hard. If you took Jalen Brown, for example, and put him there, they're definitely winning as well. And he's not anywhere close to it.

And he had the big shots, too. Here's the thing. He had the big shots to steal those.

There were no big shots. They were winning the series in four or five games.

No, but he hit the big shots. I mean, he hit the big shots in that series. And so that's the difference.

But this is the thing. If you just go back to that Clay Thompson game, the sliding doors of it, OKC just beats Golden State. Then OKC plays Cleveland in the finals. It feels like the next nine years of the League is just different. I don't know how it plays out. What if OKC beats Cleveland? Then it's like, LeBron doesn't get the title in Cleveland. Does he stay in Cleveland until he gets the title? What happens? What happens to Golden State if Durant doesn't go there? It's probably the biggest what if of this century.

You view Durant completely different. Westbrook doesn't have to deal with any of the BS that he's dealt with his entire career.

Look, if Denver wins, it's going to be Westbrook leading Jokich, so don't worry about it.

No, of Of course.

This is finally we can all agree on Westbrook at the same time, which I don't know if it's ever happened. I love Westbrook and Jokich.

I never gave up on Westbrook.

I know you did. I got to hand it to you. You never gave up.

I said he should retire earlier this year, and I I just want to say that I'm glad that Westbrook found a teammate that was smart enough to understand how to utilize them. He finally found a guy who knows how to play the game.

That's the thing. It's weirdly bad for LeBron, Eddie. This is like in the Jokuj versus LeBron argument. This is an L for LeBron.

Bill, it's easy to I don't say that, but here's what I told Justin last week. It's like, Jokić was the best combination for Westbrook because with LeBron, LeBron handled the ball, Westbrook handled the ball. It wasn't a good mix. Down in Houston, Harding handled the ball. We could have told everybody that before the trade. Westbrook handled the ball. It was not a good mix. Even when he went to Washington and he played with Bill, Bill was wanting to handle the ball in Washington. Westbrook didn't take off until Bill got injured.

And Here was my response. Yeah. And so you're right, Eddie.

That is the best combination because Jokish plays differently than everyone else.

Yeah. And so you're right, Eddie. And LeBron should have been intelligent enough to understand that, that he needs the ball, Westbrook needs the ball. And that was LeBron's mistake because he wanted to play with it.

Well, no, the ball goes into the king's hands.

That's the one real nitpick with LeBron is everybody else has to fit towards him.

And that's the way it should be.

That's the way it should be. But some of the best players of all time fit to the LeBron made a mistake bringing them there.

I will say that, but the ball goes into LeBron's hands. I don't care who's on the floor with him. Other than this magic of bird, you can make that argument. Bringing the ball up, I'm saying. Not in the half Because then we can argue Yokey. But what I'm saying is, ball goes into LeBron's hands. That's just the way it is.

Also, the fact that Westbrook seems like he's 95% as explosive as he was 12 years ago. He's just an all-time He's a freak. It's ridiculous. Even LeBron slowed down and got bigger and changed some of what he did. Westbrook seems like he's just like...

I don't know. He's a freak of nature.

I don't understand it.

Even though I said he should retire, I'm happy that he is not because I do love his mental approach. It's awesome. We need a guy that cares every single night as much as he does.

But think about this, though. What about Presty? He had three MVPs, and all three of those guys were three of the best-condition athletes. Now, Harden had ups and downs. But the one thing about Harden, he played every night, and he had to bring the ball up against little dudes. He beat him off the dribble. So his energy level was high as well. But those three guys, Katie, Russ, and Hard on the same team, you can put them up there with the top energy guys in the history of the game. They persevere.

I flew to Oklahoma City at the end of 2010 because I just wanted to go to a game. I really liked watching OKC, and I just wanted to see them before they ascended to whatever was going to happen with them. I went to a practice, and at the end of the practice, they were running the wind sprints, and KD and Russ were beating everybody in the wind sprints. They're busting each other's ass trying to beat... Some random day in December in the middle of the season, and they're flying back and forth trying to beat each other. I really think all those early years where they're competing against each other and Harden's trying to compete against them, probably had some weird carry-on effect to the fact that we're in the mid-2020s, and all those guys are still on important teams doing their thing because now they're on their mid-2030s.

It's amazing.

Before we go, Quick game of do you believe. Do you believe in Cleveland as an actual title contender? Justin?

I do. We've had this debate because Eddie likes the Knicks more than the Caps. I like the Caps more than the Knicks. Here's what we do agree, though, on Cleveland, is we both love that Donovan Mitchell has taken a step back and involved his teammates a little bit more because I thought that was a major issue in Utah. I thought it was a major issue the first couple of years in Cleveland. The fact that his numbers have dropped a little bit. It shouldn't be an indication of his play getting worse. It's the same exact thing Boston did last year. You look at everybody in that rotation took a step back for the- Sacrifice. Sacrifice. That's what Donovan Mitchell is doing this year. I absolutely love it, and I take seriously as a title contender. The other thing that I love is people wanted to break up Mitchell and Garland, and there was even some thought, Bill, that Garland wanted out, remember last offseason?

I don't think it was a thought. I don't know if he was 100% happy.

Of course. Then same thing with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. Can they play together? They keep them together. I love continuity. I know you're big on this as well. The longer teams stay together, the easier... That's why Philadelphia, this year, I didn't believe in them anyway, because it's three guys being thrown together that you knew aren't going to play a ton. Continuity means something. And now they're at the point where they know each other inside and out. So I take them as a legitimate threat. I have them number two behind Boston and the East.

Yeah, no, they're a threat. They definitely are a threat. They're one of the biggest teams in the league. And I think Jared Allen, if he can stay healthy, I think he's the key.

Their wings are a concern. And I guess how they deal with size is a little bit concerned at the guard position, which is why Boston matches up well against them with Holladay. Yeah, and Karex Levert, I think, off the bench for them, whether he's off the bench starting.

He's going to have to be consistent, right? And so I think they got enough. Yeah, I do. I think they have enough to offset because they can bother Boston with their size. And then I think they just maybe have the same amount of experience as New York. So it's like almost a crapshoot with the two of them. So I think they do have a chance.

Right now in Fandil, they're plus 850. They have the third best odds for the title. The Celtics are plus 210. Okc is plus 230. Don't make a Terry Rozier joke.

No, I wasn't going to. I'll make a Terry Rozier joke. Would you bet on Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson? If you're Terry Rozier, would you put money on Jalen Brunson or Donovan Mitchell in a series? Because don't forget, Brunson's beat him twice, outplayed him twice. When Mitchell was in Utah, once he was in Cleveland.

I think the Knicks are really good, and you can see them getting better. You know they're going to get a buy-out guy, and they'll have an eight-man rotation. You know they're all going to play too many minutes, and somebody will probably get hurt. But I think the ceiling, I'm really impressed by them, especially offensively. I do wonder with the amount of stuff they're putting on Brunson, how sustainable that is for nine months. That would be my biggest fear if I'm a Knicks fan. It's not a big guy. We just haven't seen teams built around small guards be able to survive for nine months. The only guy that really did it was Isaiah.

Well, don't you? They killed Becky Hammond for saying the same exact thing, so be careful, Bill.

I think it's on Bronson, though. I think Bronson has to be honest with himself because I think he plays beat up a lot.

I don't think it's sustainable.

He plays beat up a lot. I don't think he needs to sit down at times. I think it's just that mentality of he shouldn't have to worry about it. But I think, if I sit down, something might happen. So take my minutes thought. That's not happening with him. I just think he's all wrapped up, man. To be a young player, he just always got something on his body. Yeah.

They got great crowds. But that's why I like Cleveland a little bit more. I like the way they've handled the regular season. They're winning. But you look at their minutes and everybody's like 30 minutes and below. They're really pushing toward wherever.

The Celtics played their guys a lot. The Knicks played their guys a lot.

The Austin's had to be good about that, too. Yeah, 36 minutes and up for the top two. Do you believe in Zion at this point, No.

How? I believe in his talent, but I don't believe that he is capable of keeping himself in shape. And I think that's part of the issue. I've seen a lot of basketball players in my life playing the NBA, and I always wonder, was that guy better off being a football player or a basketball player? And I still continue to say it. When I first saw Zion in high school and I saw him on on a basketball court, I said, that's a football player that's very good at basketball. I think his mentality is that of a football player, of like, alignment or something. We don't have to do a ton of stuff. For me, I just don't... Basketball seems to not have been his ticket. We all played sports, right? I played baseball. I played football a little bit, and I was pretty good at baseball. But I reached a point where I said, Okay, Eddie, you're 6'6. It's not too many 6'6 third basement. My arm is hurting from pitching. I need to play basketball. I don't know if Zion ever reached that point of having to make the decision. I think all Systematically, he played basketball.

To me, man, I just don't think mentally, he's in tune with what it takes to stay on the floor as a basketball player.

But what's funny about you laying that out, though, is that he came into the league as one of the best assets for the number one pick that we probably had this century.

We interviewed David Griffin and Alvin Gentry the night they got that pick. We were there at the draft lottery. Those guys were as happy as could be, and it might end up like it already cost Alvin Gentry his job, and it might cost David Griffin his job. They were ecstatic about it at the time, but now they might lose their job as a result to him. Gentry already did.

The one thing I've learned a couple of things, I guess, following sports and trying to come up with things to say and studying stuff. If the guy doesn't want it, there's not a lot else he can do. I think you could say that if you're a parent and you have a kid that's good at a certain sport, you can't force the kid to be awesome at the sport. At some point, they're going to have to give a shit. He says all the right things sometimes, but it just doesn't seem like he gets it. Now he's headed toward his mid 20s. At some point, it's either going to happen or it's not up here, and it just doesn't seem like it's there.

I tell this story real quick, and I've said it on our show. I once had this lady traveled all the way from Wyoming with her kid, and that's when I had a training academy. The kid, she shows up. The kid is 6'6. I mean, ripped. 14. 14 years old. And she says, he's going to be a great basketball player. He's going to grow. His dad was 6'10, and he's going to grow. So I work the kid out. He takes 25 jumpers in close, 10 feet around the rim, made one. Okay, I moved them out a little bit, five airballs. And so I sit them down on the side and I said, what do you like to do? And he started talking about all the things he likes to do, and he started talking about his instruments, and he likes to play in the band and all of that. And not one time did he mention basketball. I looked at the mother, I went, Oh, I said, Miss, I'm going to give you your money back. And I charged her like a grand. I'm going to give you your money back. And I am telling you, if you don't want to lose your kid, you need to let him be in the band.

I am telling you, he does not want to play basketball. She starts crying. I mean, literally.

Because she knew deep down.

I had to grab this lady. She was distraught. And I told her. And then I went over there, took over to him and I said, Son, what do you like to do?

Band.

To me, it reminds me of Zion. He was made to play basketball. They wanted him to play basketball. I just wonder at times, does he really want to play at a high level. I've said that about numerous guys. It's not just Zion.

Oh, yeah. Well, that contrasts that to your Durant story. Durant, probably ever since he could hit the 10-foot rim with the ball, he's probably been shooting jumpers for three, four, five hours a day. That's the thing. I actually think Tatum has this. I think Tatum and Brown has it, too. Maybe it's a good thing that they're a little competitive in a good way with each other. But I think they come in every year. This year, Jalen got too big, but at least there was intent behind it. He's like, I need to survive the nine months. Tateum always adds stuff year after year. I know. I want Jalen to lose a little just because.

That was my issue, honestly, with Jamal Murray. It's like, did he get paid? Did he win the Championship and then take his foot off the gas? To the credit of Jalen Brown and Jason Tateum, those guys have busted their rear ends. Jalen Brown, like again, you said, he got maybe too big, but the intention was good. So Jalen Brown wins a championship. He gets paid. The year before, Jalen Brown got paid. He didn't say, I get paid and I'm just fine now. Jalen Brown got the biggest contract in NBA has history, and then came back and had the best season of his career, want to find his MVP. That's credit to guys that do that because I don't think everybody can.

You can argue that's what maybe forced Jamal to not be in shape because he had not gotten paid yet. So So he held back.

This is a bigger issue with the league than I think people realize. Guys that have an extension coming and they're afraid to get hurt, so they stop working out all during the summer. There's a list of things like that.

It messes them up, Bill.

I think it just happened in Trey Murphy. I I think he started out the season shitty, and now he looks like Trey Murphy again.

Yeah. I don't think Devon would ever admit it, but the way that he changed his game this summer was a positive for the Olympic team. But I think that mentality cut down that killer instinct that he had for a short period of time thinking that, Okay, I'm going to try this on the Suns, too. I won't take a shot in the first five minutes, and I'll turn it on when I can. I think it got him in that situation. Lately, he's gotten back to Devon, being ultra-aggressive. A lot of times, they tell you, like Larry Brown used to always say, You F with the game. It's no F with you.

I agree with Eddie's point. I think that's a really good point that he carried that mindset that he had all summer into the season and it affected his game. Can somebody tell me somebody that actually benefited from the Olympics this year? Because I think everybody was going to be- Here comes the anti-patriot.

Yeah. I know. Boo America. Boo America. You play for your country.

I do think if I was the Tsar of our Olympic basketball program, I would go 25 and under for the team.

Yeah, so would I. I just wouldn't.

And we'll get our butt kicked every year.

I don't know if we would.

You almost got your butt kicked this year with the legends playing. Exactly. And Jokish almost teach you by yourself.

Exactly.

I want people like Ahmed Thompson on our 2020 Olympic team. Let's give them the experience, put them on that stage, and maybe have one or two people people over 25 as the adults.

I would love to see that. Bill, I'm with you.

Bill, I would love to see it.

Bill, I would love to see it. I like cheering for the underdog. Yeah. Because we need to get the underdogs again. That's exactly what it's going to be.

Which is why I cheered for Serbia.

Yeah. Why do you even acknowledge that?

Just get a dual passport and move out of here. You should get run out of Boston. Guys, thank you for all the time. This was great. Now, I'll feel better when I pop on your show out of nowhere when I'm driving around, I just text Justin.

Hold it. You never asked. It wasn't like we turned you down.

No, we're not. Well, you did last week, and he asked us last week, you said no.

No, but there was a reason you guys could do last week. I was traveling. I know. No, this was fun. I had a great time. I can listen to you guys every, what is it? 4: 00 to 7: 00?

Yeah, 4: 00 to 7: 00 Eastern Time, Monday through Friday. I think this is the longest we ever talk to each other for free. Typically, we just talk to each other on a day.

No way I talk to him for free. Trust me, Bill. So you're good. You're good time to it, Bill. Trust me on that.

All right. Safe travels. Great to see you guys. Thanks for coming up. Yeah, fairwell.

All right. Okay. Take care.

All right. That's it for the pod. Thanks to JT and Eddie. Thanks to Kyle, and Sourudi, and Gehow. As always, don't forget, you can watch the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can also watch Before Sunrise on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel, the latest rewatchables we did. I will see you on Sunday. We're not going live because there's no football game, but Cousin Sal and I are going to have a little Super Bowl props extravaganza. That's coming on Sunday, and maybe we'll do some basketball today. We will see. Enjoy the weekend.

Must be 21 plus in President Select States for Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President DC.

Gambling problem, call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help. Com. Call 1-88789-7777 or visit ccpg. Org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp. Org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma. Org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support, Massachusetts, or call 1877-8 Hope, NY, or text Hope, NY, in New.