Transcript of "Mark Hamill"

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Guys, let's just scooch in here real quick. Let's just wedge our way in here right before we're going to start a new... But I just want to scooch right in here, right before we start and just look at both of you in the eye.

Do like a little appetizer, a little audio appetizer.

A little appetizer, just get a little scooch in. Just like a quick little week.

Sean, let's just make it a twosome today. Okay, ready? Here we go. Nice. Welcome to Smartless. Yes.

I'm wedged in. Who's the other guy?

Who's that other guy? Still wedged in. Here we go. Smartlist.

Smartlist.

Sean, where'd you get that sweet smartless hat?

Isn't that cool? From the merch store, it's SiriusXM.

You go to H&M, you can just buy smart lists, T-shirts, hats, and what if I wanted leg warmers? Do they have those?

Why? Yes. You could do all that. Do we get any...

Does anyone ask you It felt like we talked about this before. Yeah, why did they send us that? I got one of those, too.

I don't know. Did you get it or no?

I did get it. Why did they send us one of those hats? They're particularly proud of it.

I don't know because they're new, I guess, in the store.

They're pretty sweet. Amanda stole mine immediately.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Who came up with those? Don, you had a hand in that particular hat, right?

No, I didn't. No, not at all.

Will's got notes. Hold on, hold on. Will's got a trucker hat.

This is like a baseball hat.

Yeah, but it's got a real curve on the bill. It is a trucker hat, I like, but it's got a real soft top to it. It rolls back. I like a high top to my trucker hat.

We call that. It's almost got a slouch, and I don't like it.

Yeah, I know. But you can find the high top trucker hats on the site there.

Yes, you can. Where is that, Sean? It's at the Sierra sixth. I don't know the link. Does anybody know the link? I don't know.

We'll put it in the chat. Yeah. Everyone's getting the chat. We should get...

Oh, yeah. People are jumping on the chat. Hang on, let me just take a look. The chat is blowing up.

Wait, Jay, did you make it to Maple This game?

I did. I saw the first quarter, and I was telling Will.

Basketball, right?

Yeah. She's got incredible ball skills, which is what I think Will's handle, maybe both of your handles. Ball skills? Coming up through high school. Ball. Oh, ball skill, Hayes.

Here he comes.

I love not even commentating and just watching you draw that one out. Finding the joke. I think that's what you want one of you, what you have.

That's how I felt all day today doing doing our sketches today.

Yeah, we were working on something today and chatting about something today that's to come that we keep talking about.

Not sure we got anything usable today.

I think we did. Absolutely. Oh, please. J. B, give me a break. Yeah, of course we did. Of course, of course, of course we did. It's all in the vein of this fun thing that we keep talking about that we're really excited about.

When are we going to talk more about that?

In a few weeks.

Pretty soon. When is the audience ready to hear?

In a matter of weeks, we're going to be able to talk about what it really is, and I think it's exciting.

I'm very excited to share it with our listeners.

I'm excited I do.

Super excited. I think it's something that they might like. They might use.

Guess what else I'm excited about.

What is it? Here we go. Your next guest?

This is what I like. I like a segue more than anything.

A smooth segue. Will, have you figured it out yet? Because I was talking to Will, giving him clues today.

I was trying to think, you were like, Oh, That's so me.

Give me a clue. I'll figure it out. I'm brighter than him.

Well, so I'll read it. You'll guess it by the end of this intro. Here we go. We'll have to add him to our smart list, legendary All-Star list. I just started. But dedicated to his craft, he trained with an Olympic fencer before becoming the thing I cannot yet mention. As a child, he often contemplated who he'd rather fly as, Superman or Peter Pan. His career started with a role on General Hospital, which primed him for the pilot of 8 is enough. John Stamos. As he patiently waited May 25th, 1977, when the world would come to know him as one of the most famous heroes in cinematic history. That role is Luke Skywalker, and he is Mark Hamill.

Mark Hamill.

Whoa. Whoa.

Whoa. Mr. Hamill. Now, Sean How are you even sitting? Well, at least you're sitting.

I'm not even kidding. Look, I'm shaking a little bit.

Yeah, I'm shaking a little bit. How did you get through the day? Sorry, we're going to give you in a second, Mr. Hamlet. This guy, Sean Hayes, lives and breathes Star Wars.

He said, When you see my guest tonight, you're going to be like, of course, that makes total sense. I was like, who could it be? It's not the mayor of Tattooine, but it's close.

It's close. Wait, just before we start, first of all, thank you for being on here. This is huge for me. Thank you.

All of us.

Billions of other people.

Oh, my God.

This guy's a national treasure, for Christ's sake.

You are, and I can't believe you. But before we start, I just want to read to you what you wrote on your Instagram about Stephen King. You wrote, It took every ounce of discipline I possessed to avoid freaking out and exposing myself as the weak need, slavish fanboy I truly am. Of course, I feel the same way about you as you wrote about Stephen King, because I've been waiting 50 years to talk to you.

Oh, my God.

This is crazy. It's so good. It's crazy that I'm talking to you.

It's not quite 50 years. It's 47. I mean, let's be honest, because the movie came out in '77. I saw A New Hope four times in a row. I know I give Sean a lot of shit for being a Star Wars. I saw the I was one four times in the theaters when I was a kid.

Well, so you were all like 12, 13, 14. I was seven.

We were both seven. Sean and I were both seven.

They both look much older than I do. Now, Will, did you pay four times for it or did you just-Yeah, I went four times.

I went, yes, of course.

He left the theater and reentered four times.

Nobody could believe it was a phenomenon that nobody could believe it. It changed everything.

We talk about it all the time on this show when we talk about movies.

We do. I give Sean a lot of shit just for being a nerd, Mark, but that's not the only reason he's a nerd. He's a nerd for a lot of other reasons.

Mark, how was it to continue being a part of that going forward on and on? Did you think it would go on this long?

Oh, of course not. No, not at all. Although when we were doing it, I remember the first couple of days we shot in North Africa, I went over with Guinness and the droids, and I hadn't met Carrier Harrison yet. I said to George, Why is this episode four? Why aren't you starting with episode one, he goes, Well, episode one, it's a lot of exposition and it's more political. This trilogy is much more commercial.

So he knew. Did he already have plans that he would go back and do those first three, or did he just jettison that from the very beginning and just like, Yeah, we're just going to not even do those stories?

Well, the way I understood it was that he originally planned four trilogies of 12. But when we were shooting, I asked him about the first trilogy, and he said, he explained, Well, this is more commercial. There's a lot of exposition, and it's political, and it's about taxation, and blah, blah, blah. So I wanted to... He wanted you to feel like you walked into a serial chapter play and you'd miss the first few episodes. That's why they had the crawl to bring you up to speed. But I mean, as actors, you must appreciate this. When I auditioned, it was an open cattle call. Brian De Palma was casting Stephen King's Carry, the horror movie set in high school, and George was casting Star Wars, and it was a cattle call. Like I said, you sat down, they said, Tell us a little about yourself, and you talked for five minutes, and they said, Thank you. They didn't talk the project at all. But here's the interesting part. My agent says, Okay, you've got a screen test. We're sending you the page. It was like a 10-page scene with Harrison as Han Solo in the cockpit of the Millennium Falcon.

No Woki, just the two of us. But there was no context. I'm reading this thing going, Wait a second, is this like a parody or a send-up of Flash Gordon? Is it like Mel Brooks or whatever? When I went to the audition, I went to Harrison because he had American Graffity. He'd known George. I said, Harrison, is this like a send-up? He said, Hey, kid, let's just get it done. He was absolutely know-how whatsoever.

I could listen to I'm going to imitate him all day.

Did he have to audition at all or he was already set in that part coming off of American Graffity?

Well, no, he'd already in American Graffity. When I did the screen test, I don't know whether he was set or not, but he did do a screen test with Kerry, so I guess George was fairly sure. There were two sets of three. And Marsha Lucas, George's wife, said when he was packing to go to London, he hadn't decided between the two. I mean, there was no mix and match. It was me, Harrison and Kerry, or Will Seltzer, Terry Nunn, and I forget now who was Hans Solo. She took credit. She said, I'm the one that suggests he go with you guys.

That's great. That's amazing.

But here's what's so interesting I went to George at the same audition, said the same thing I said to Harrison, Is this like a parody or are we serious? He went, Well, let's just do it and we'll talk about it later. Translation, let's just do it and we'll never talk about it later. You're sure.

Shut up and hit your mark.

Exactly. George is not like... He's not an actor's director. He comes alive in the editing room. He doesn't want to hear about backstory or motivation or whatever. Now, Irvin Kershner was the opposite. He was very much into that. He did Empire. But like I say, the moment my agent said, Okay, you got it, and they're sending the script over, I will never forget reading that script for the first time because it just blew my mind. I mean, even without John Williams' music or the special effects. So it was that good. Yes, it was all on the page, you guys. You really got the sense of-That amazing. Yes, it was-What about you realizing what part you had just gotten, too? Well, that's it. I have to tell you, Jason, it was weeks, maybe a month later. When I tested, I figured, Oh, Harrison's the leading man. I'm like the annoying sidekick, right? Because I'm badgering him and all this stuff. That's your story. I have to do this for you. I mean, my daughter is through this a million times. There was a line in the screen test that, thankfully, was not in the finished product.

We're going towards the Death Star, and Solos basically, Look, I've done my part. When we get to an inhabitable asteroid, I'm jumping you and the droids off. Here's my actual line, But we can't turn back. Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aqaly or Solace, and what there is is most likely directed towards a large scale assault. Now, try and make that sound like it's a spontaneous thought just coming off at the top of your head. You just did. I mean, you could diagram this sentence.

Well, whenever Scotty and I run out to the store, we say this line. This should be great. But I was going in a Tashi station to pick up some power converters, which here it is. Here it is.

I was going in a Tashi station to pick up some power converters.

There you go. People don't believe me, but I was trying to be as whiny baby as I could, so I had somewhere to go.

Yeah, for sure.

You had to be this kid who Yes.

You got to be as annoying and whiny as possible. But I still get garbage over that over the years because- I didn't even tell you this, Sean.

I just watched the New Hope again recently with the little kids, with my kids, and It holds up in the most crazy- It holds up?

How old is it? What is it? 1977?

He shot it in '76, and it came out in '77. You guys shot it in '76?

What is that? You shot it in '76? That's 48 years.

Yeah, I was 24. Four.

Almost 49. Wow. You shoot that thing in 1976 in London and in North Africa. By the way, I remember my friend, this guy I worked with Peter Cohn, who was a first assistant director on lots of big movies. But one of his first jobs, he was a PA on A New Hope, Peter was?

Yes. The thing was, he was not going to be able to go to... They weren't taking him to North Africa, but when they discovered he spoke French, he was in. He was like 19, and we became fast friends, and he's still one of my closest friends today. Wow. I love that.

He's a great guy. I worked with him on a couple of movies. He was the first AD on Blades of Glory. He was also first AD on With Nail and I, which is my favorite film of all time. Yeah, it's great. But I remember him telling me, and maybe, Mark, you can speak to this, telling me about, for instance, R2D2 is just this Because it was 1976, it was just this bucket, this metallic thing. It would fall over, they'd kick it.

Yes, exactly. It's a marvel of editing because- Sean, why are you crying?

Sean, on the verge. He's just kidding. On the verge.

No, but tell us.

Well, no, it was like you said. I mean, George called it the most expensive low budget movie ever made. What he meant by that was every single penny has to be up on the screen. The only people they actually had to pay decent salaries to would be Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing. All of us were unknowns. I think I got a thousand a week. I remember complaining to my agent, I make 8,000 to 10,000 on television a week. She said, Hey, get a grip. It's a movie. It's George Lucas. It's Alec Guinness. I went, Well, yeah. As you know, money is secondary. We do this because we love it. If you can get a nice salary, good for you.

But wait, what about Robert England? And for my Mr. Tracy, Robert England was Freddy Kruger, and he told you to audition for Star Wars. Is that true?

Well, in his book, he said, basically, if it weren't for me, Mark, wouldn't be Luke Skywalker. To be fair, I mean, I love Robert. But when he said that to me, he had just come back from an audition You know how it is. Once you've auditioned, you feel free to tell your friends, Oh, have you been out for this thing? Have you been out for this George Lucas thing? I said, No. And I went to the phone, I called my agent, and I told her about it, and she said, I'm all You've got an appointment next Wednesday. I hate to burst Robert's bubble. It makes for a better story.

Sure. It's a good sound bite, but we've put it to rest now and fucking… I'm just kidding. I was about to unload. I don't know the guy. No, it's great.

What was your work schedule like before Star Wars?

Were you-Yeah, you were in the pilot of 8 is enough. That's what I want to know. And then you got replaced.

But they changed It changed a lot of the people in the pilot. They changed the father. They changed three siblings, including me. Pick Van Patten. I was just doing... After the soap, I did TV movies. I don't know how many of 30 or something between '70 and '76 and lots and lots of FBI.

You were a working actor. This wasn't a huge shock to you, to the system when this thing took off. I mean, I guess, how can you be prepared for that exposure. You weren't right off a truck.

No. The way I felt about it, I thought, I didn't see any ads for it on television. I'd watch Saturday Night Live, and usually they'd place a movie, commercials there. I didn't see it. On the day it opened, the driver picked me up to go dub the 35 millimeter prints because it only opened in 16 theaters in 70 I said, Can you drive by Grammets Chinese? I want to see what it looks like up on the Marquis. Here's a fun fact. There was such disagreement on how to promote it at Fox that it opened with no poster. No.

Wow, that's crazy.

They just stabled the lobby cards up because they couldn't... Is this like that one faction was promoting it like an entertainment journey beyond your imagination, far beyond. The other one was pushing the more comedic aspects Little Rascals in Outer Space, but they couldn't agree. Anyway, I said, Can you drive by Grommas? Now, what I thought was, this thing's going to take a couple of weeks to get going because the hardcore sci-fi, fantasy, horror fans are all going to see it on day one, but it'll big word of mouth for it to spread and say, Hey, you know what? It's pretty funny, too. It's all these things. Anyway, we drove by and I couldn't believe my eyes. There were lines around the block the first day, so I couldn't figure it out. Yeah.

What was the promotion That's a question that got that amount of interest going? I was too young to really notice it, but how do you think they accrued that much interest in it without the posters instead?

Well, they did a poster, but I think Hildebrand was the artist, and they depicted Luke as like 6'2 and ripped with muscles and didn't look anything like me.

I didn't even audition, but yeah.

But you know what's funny, though? What a great example, once again, of how fucking lucky the suits got. They got in their own way and couldn't agree on a poster who were so quick to rush to take credit for shit and blah, blah, blah.

But it was the merits of it that gave it its legs.

It was the merits of the picture itself that got it to where and created this thing. How quickly do you think, Mark, those same people who decided that they couldn't figure out to put a fucking poster or whatever, how quickly do you think they took credit at dinner that night or the next week or at a lunch with other?

It's fucking absurd. Isn't that the way? Because they really didn't see any potential, and we didn't-Of course, they didn't. They were really prepared to dump it. But George had made it Graffity at Universal, and the head of Universal wanted to dump it on the second half of a double bill. It was only Francis Ford Coppola that went to him and said, Look, you've got to give this a chance, because they were mad because they spent so much money to get rights to all the music, all the vintage rock and roll. But to think that American graffiti could have been just thrown away, and they never learned. We'll be right back.

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Now, back to the show.

Hey, what had John Williams done before? He did Jaws before this. Oh, my God.

He did so much. Yes.

No, but before Jaws or This.

He did Lost in Space. He did-He was billed as Johnny Williams, and he did a lot of universal television shows.

I mean, we were so-He did Gilligan's Island. Aside from George, I think he's probably more responsible for the success of that film than any other single person. Because when I remember, Gary Kirst, the producer, picked me up to go to another dubbing session. He said, Oh, I just got the score from... I was over in London When he put it on, you guys, I'm telling you, I felt tears streaming down my face. I just couldn't... Exactly. I also wanted to finish the story about me reading it for the first time. Remember, I got it reading a script. I just had read that one.

Sorry, keep going.

Well, here's the thing. When I opened to the first page, it said, The adventures of Luke Star killer as taken from the Journal of the Wills, Naga number one, The Star Wars. And I'm thinking, wait a minute. Was that Luke? No, I guess Harrison was Luke because I figured he was a traditional leading man. He was 35 or whatever, and he was Harrison Ford. Come on. So I'm starting to read this thing, and in the very beginning, I realized, oh, my God, this is seen through the eyes of this teenage farm boy. I mean, that was unusual in and of itself. You'd think it'd probably be through the eyes of Han Solo. But I mean, that's the journey that- Give us a little bit of Harrison's reaction when he read the script.

By the way, Sean, I have to tell you, after I didn't say, oh, I'm going to go do an impression of Harrison Ford.

I was on Seth Meyers, and I was just relaying a story that happened to us when we were on the Death Star, we were midday, and I said, Wait a second, this scene takes place after we were in the trash compactor, which we hadn't filmed yet. Or maybe we had because I said, Shouldn't I have some schmutz and messy hair and polystyrene in my hair? And he He goes, Hey, kid, it ain't that movie. If anybody's looking at your hair, we're all in big trouble. And I went, Boy, is he right? He's so right. That's so great. I told him, I said, You really make a great director if you weren't so lazy because he knows his part and he knows everybody, and he'll give you suggestions. They're all cold. I just idolized him. When he walked in the door the first time, because I went back after he did this stuff in Africa, Harrison came first, and he comes on the sound stage in his Han Solo gear I just... I already liked him in the conversation and American Rafida anyway. But I mean, I just was... The relationship was real because I idolized him.

I looked at him as a mentor or an older brother and all that.

I love that. He was so fucking cool with the vest and shit.

When I read it, I thought, Oh, my God, why don't I ever get the part of the womanizing gambler and scoundrel? I'm just like, Oh, I'm going to touch your station. What?

I did a thing for Vanity Fairwise, and they said, you can do any character from a film, blah, blah, blah. I went as Harrison Ford from Star Wars. Oh, wow. Because I was like, yeah, he was a cowboy. You know what I mean?

Speaking of that, you must know, Mark, that these guys know Scotty, my husband, is as big a fan as I am.

How far off camera is he right now?

He might be coming on right this second. Oh, good. All right. Because he has a couple. Oh, boy. All right. He's dressed as Kyla Ren. Dressed as Kyla Ren.

Listener, we've got Scotty and the Kyla Ren.

More royalties for George Lucas. Very good.

He's got the lightsaver. Scotty's got a couple.

Hi, Scott.

He's been waiting.

I've been sitting here for like an hour.

She's just funny. My mom told me, she said, When you were born, I couldn't decide on a name. It was between Mark and Scott. They said, If you don't decide right now, we're just going to put Baby Hamel on the birth certificate. She literally flipped a coin. Of course, when she tells you that at age seven, you go, Oh, Scott's so much a cooler name. You should have named Scott. You always want what you don't have, right?

But I I'm a big fan, but Scotty's a mega, mega fan. All right, go, Scotty. He's got a couple questions. It's next level.

Hang on. First of all, welcome to SmartList, Scotty.

Yeah, I think this is Scotty's debut.

On the proper podcast.

On the proper podcast. I may have been seen in the background, but that's just an ogle. Mark, it's such an honor to meet you. Thank you. It goes without saying as such a huge fan I am. But I think my question really is, at what point when everything was done, the film was done, it was completed, and it was about to come out, and all of that, I know the typical question is, did you know it was going to be a hit? Of course, nobody knows it's going to be a hit. Anything's going to be a hit. It's not up to us. But when did you have that visceral reaction like we all had, or did you ever have it like audiences had, where you realized, Oh, this is something bigger than all of us.

This is un-There was a moment, and it was... They sent the three of us, Kerry Harrison and me, to promote it. We did Vancouver. I don't think it had opened. And then it opened, and when we came into Chicago, I looked outside the plane and I saw massive crowds. And I said, Hey, you guys, there's somebody famous on this plane. We were looking around to see if there was a big sports star or whatever. And then as we got closer, said, Hey, Gary, look, that girl has bonds on. She's got the It's this layman. Harrison, that guy's got the vest and everything. Somebody had made a Luke tunic out of the pillow because there were people dressed like us. We all looked at it and she was like, Whoa, that's above and beyond. I mean, you wanted it to be a successful movie, but when you see people then role-playing- Especially 50 years later, right?

It's like, Hey. Yeah, exactly. Like a grown man. Go ahead. Next question, Scotty.

Listen, I'm here to give Sean a break from the harassment. It's now for me.

Well, I love it. I have to tell you, it's a double-edged sword because what will happen is, and this has been happening for 20, 30 years, the kids that were little when it came out are now parents of their own, and you'll be in an airport or something. And a five or six-year-old, they think we made Star Wars two weeks ago. I mean, there's nothing to really date it in terms of models of cars or clothing or whatever. So they have no concept of time. And so The parents will gesture to a 55-year-old me and go, Hey, kids, look who it is. It's Luke Skywalker. And they look at me in horror. God, what happened to this guy? He really let himself go.

Great makeup artist in the movie. Yeah, exactly.

Wait, so, Scottie, do you have another question before you take off?

Jesus Christ. No, I didn't realize I'd be-No, you can hang out.

I didn't know if you wanted to.

No, I would love to. Hang on, hang on. Hang on, hang on one second. Let me just say, Scotty, I don't think that Sean meant that. I think that what he meant to say, he didn't know if you had more, Sean, I got this. Then Sean, look at Scotty and tell him what you meant to say.

What I meant to say was, I didn't know if you had to go somewhere and I didn't want to keep you on the podcast.

Where the fuck does he have to go? Be honest. What are you talking?

This is great. Now, Scott, how are you feeling? No, look at Sean and you tell him how you're feeling.

I'm feeling wonderful. Thank you for the This is great. It's a pleasure to be here.

Our hour is up.

Nothing else. I'm glad that Mark could be here for the two of the biggest Star Wars fans in the world, that Mark, you could see them work out. In couples therapy. In couples therapy.

We owe everything to the fans. If it weren't for them, we wouldn't be anywhere. That's right.

Wait, Scott, you have to have one last burning desire question. Yeah, something.

What about Norway with the Empire Strikes Back and the snow? Remember we were talking about that?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I could have this wrong, but wasn't there a thing where you guys were... Where you were in Norway, it was just absolutely treacherous with all the snow. I think you guys were scheduled to go shoot somewhere or whatever it was, but it was so bad. Then you just went out the back door and did stuff.

Exactly. Here's what happened. Our luck was terrible. We had rainstorms in Tunisia that caused us. We had to shut Then we go to Norway. It was like the coldest winter in, I don't know, 11 billion years, whatever it was. They had found a glacier, which was about an hour and a half from where we were staying. We would take We were meant to go on snow buggies because it photographed on camera, it photographed blue. I remember now, this is the days before a lot of CGI, everything was practical in those days. The day arrives for us to go to this blue glacier, and they said, It's impossible. I mean, even if we go there, it'll be whited out from the blizzard. Like you say, it was Han Solo rescuing Luke in the snow after getting hit by the Wampa. If you turn the camera around, there's people on the balcony sipping Coco watching us. Oh, wow. We're about 100 yards from the back of the hotel. That's crazy.

This is where you cut the belly open on the thing and you got inside? Yeah, exactly.

No way.

That is so They were all enjoying it. But it's funny now because in those days, there wasn't so much security. In other words, when I read Star Wars, I just blew my mind and I said, Oh, my God, I've got to get my friend Jonathan to read this. My best friend Jonathan worked down to the LA Art Museum, and I passed it to him and he read it. He said, Yeah, I don't know how they're going to do this or what it is really. He goes, Can I give it to Meredith? I said, Yeah, sure. So we passed it all around. All my friends read it. It was before everything was coded with your name on it. Where you have to protect it with your life. But it was just a different time. Like I said, I had a blast. One thing that hit me, I said, You know what I love about this is you can take from it what you want. In other words, it's effortlessly feminist. The Princess is anything but a shrinking violet. She takes over her own rescue, makes Han and Luke look like a couple of chums. You call it as a rescue?

Give me that gun. She's standing up to Vader nose to nose, and really giving him... What I'm saying is that is just accepted and it's- It's ahead of its time.

How long was the shoot? Do you remember that?

Yeah, It was like, I think it was scheduled for 10 weeks and we went 12. But that was Star Wars on Empire. It was crazy because it was scheduled for three months, four months. Everybody wrapped and went home, and I was still the only human being on the call sheet. There was a puppet, a robot, various snakes, and lizards, and one human being because they built Degaba on a sound stage at Elstry. It's amazing that we could get away with that because when I was reading the script, I said, How are they going to do Yoda? Is it going to be stop frame animation or whatever? I didn't know it was going to be a puppet. I'm telling you, Frank Auss is such an artist. When he puts that thing on, you're just there. It was so real to me. And he was always breaking down. The eyes would go cock-eye, the ears wouldn't work. So they had a stand-in, which was just a foam mold of his face with a piece of blue tape where his eyes are supposed to be. Every time you see me in a single talking to him, he's not there.

But I can be a Jedi. I'm saying to this foam, rubber, I'm saying. But again, Frank Oz. We're the best of friends. What is it all these years later? He's just one of my favorite people in the business and so talented. That's great.

It's so amazing. Scotty, before you go, now I'm saying before you go. Before you go, do you want to do your Yoda impression for Mark?

Oh, yes. Let's hear it.

Oh, boy.

Here we go. No, I'm kidding.

I'm sure it's never been done.

There you That was great.

That was great.

That was great.

That was good.

No, thank you guys.

Thank you so much. Thanks, Scotty. I'll see you.

Thank you, Scotty.

That happens all the time. I was on CNN and Jim Acosta did a Yoda impression. On air. Everybody reverts to their nine-year-old nerd self.

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Because it's unlike anything else, everybody on the planet has seen it and knows what it is. Think about that.

That's crazy. It's strange. I have to tell you, when I read it, I thought, I am so there. I mean, even if I had not gotten the part, I would be dying to see this movie. That's how I felt about it.

Do you remember, I love that story that you talk about on Empire where if the camera were to turn around, they'd see people sipping Coco on the deck. Do you look at certain scenes over the years, over all the movies and go like, well, I've done this before, but you go like, I remember I was really sick that day. You watch a take and you go, oh, yeah, that was the day I ate the bad fish.

Or that was the first scene we shot or the last scene we shot.

I saw them when they came out, but I don't go back and see them again. In fact, when they did the reissue with the special editions, when they called me and I said, Oh, yeah, if you can send me a copy, I'd like to see it. When my kids heard about it, they said, Are you kidding? You're not going to go see it in the theater? I said, Why do you guys want to see it? You've seen it a bazillion times on video, they said, But never on a big screen. I So I did. I saw Empire, the first one, Empire and Jedi once in the theater. But I haven't seen them again since. And the same with the sequels. You see them and then you just move on.

You've seen Star Wars, Empire and Jedi only once in the movie theaters and never again? No.

Yeah, I don't watch them on video, to tell you the truth. And there's a certain disconnect because the fans have seen them not only far more recently, but many, many, many, many, many, many more times than I have. So they'll ask me questions where I go, Wait a second, because this is great. Do we go to the ? They go, Well, it's not in a movie. It's in Splinter of the Mind's Eyes. It's a novel by Harry Dean Fox. They play the games, they read the books, and they know way more about it. I know I've disappointed people. I took a Star Wars quiz once and flunked it. Nathan said, It was multiple choice. What memorial?

They I was going to ask you when the last time was that you saw the first one, Star Wars.

Would have been '97 because it was the 20th anniversary of when it first came out. But the question is like, what was Hans Solo smuggling A, jewelry, B, units, C. It was spices. Who knows? The minutiae that these people have is really astonishing. I hate to disappoint people if I go to these.

Didn't they have spice Dune, too?

Yeah, they had spice on Dune.

What's with the spices in space?

Well, people like to be really spicy.

It's a real hot commodity in space. You get some taragon up in space and you're living up the... You're in the highest of cotton. Yeah, go ahead.

What is the craziest fan interaction you've had? Well, God. Do you have like, besides today with Scotty?

Well, number one, don't sign body parts. Oh, boy. Sure. No good can come from that.

Okay. Noted.

For the most part, what it's like. When it all happened and went crazy, we were in the center of the storm. So it seemed like everybody was going nuts around us. We weren't going nuts. But it was a different time. I mean, you'd have people just proposition you like, really? Yeah, come on back.

And we will be right back.

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And back to the show.

Somebody asked me recently, they said, If you had a time machine and you could go back to any time to live, what would it be? And I said, late '70s California. Because it feels It was like it was just like a unregulated, just a constant sunset. Just good time party. No rules, easy, breezy. It was great, man. Yeah, it was great, man. Well, you were nine. But Mark, you as somebody who Was it at the pinnacle of the film industry in that time, it must have been a lot of fun.

Yeah, it was. But you always try and say, I haven't changed. Everybody else is going bonkers, but you want to on to that. And plus, I immediately tried to throw myself into things because I wanted to do character parts. I wasn't getting them. You know how it is, guys, you do one thing well, they want you to do the same thing over and over again. So I went to New York and I was able to do character parts It wasn't until I discovered animation, I went, Oh, where's this been all my life? Because they cast with their ears, not their eyes. And you're able to play all these parts you'd never get on camera.

Yeah, you're like such a superstar voiceover actor now. It's incredible.

I'm too short to be the Joker. He's 6, too. I'm 5, 9 at best.

But wait a minute. This is you as the Joker, which is fucking crazy. It's incredible.

Because now there's a teeny little bit of me and you, too. You bats. Why aren't you laughing?

Wow. That's incredible.

That's from Arcom Asylum. I had done the role for however long the first iteration came in. There's so many good jokers after me, Kevin Michael Richardson and Jeff Bennett.

No, you're one of the most iconic ones now. It's incredible.

But what I'm saying is when we got to the video games, because I'd get mail in the original incarnation saying, why doesn't the Joker kill more people? And you have to say, it's a children's cartoon. There's these standards and practices. There was a list of things that you could not do. You could not punch someone directly in the face. You couldn't throw someone through a plate glass window. No nudity, no liquor, no drugs, et cetera. Somebody made a drawing, Bruce Tim made a drawing of Batman flying through a glass window with a gin bottle and a hypodermic needle and a girl bare chested. He broke all the rules in one. But by the time we got to the video games, which is, I don't know, I'm bad on time these days, but 10, 15, 20 years later, because Kevin Conroy was always my Batman.

Okay, that's what I was going to ask you, who your Batman was.

Yeah, When Kevin passed, I said, this is the time for me not to do it anymore, because I got to the point where my agent would call and they say, they want you for Joker, or I'd say, is Kevin doing it? If they said yes, I'd say, then I'm in. I wouldn't even have to read it. But what I couldn't get used to with the video games because they were for 16 and older, and people did die. I'm looking at it going, Can we say this? Much more sophisticated than the early stuff.

Yeah, for sure.

But I want to ask you a question, Sean, because one of the things I miss about living in New York, because we had an apartment there for 19 years, is seeing theater. I would have loved to have seen you play Oscar Levant because I could see it. I could see your face morphing into that character.

So long, Oscar was such a good... When I was a kid, in the summertime, I could stay up past my bedtime and watch twilight Zone and Dick Van Dyke all the shows I loved.

I used to watch Jack Barr and Steve Allen and Oscar Levant, fascinating me as a kid because he was effortlessly witty, but he had all these ticks and nervous ticks and the smoking and all of it. I thought, Oh, thanks. Well, I thought you did- I'm going to do it again in London next summer, but just for a limited time if you find yourself out that way. I'll keep that in mind. Yeah, I'll keep that in mind.

Sean, what a mind blow. If you go and you're doing a play that you wanted Tony for, which again, sorry, just a quick. You wanted Tony for, and then you get to go and you do it on the west end of London, and you've just invited Mark Hamel to come see you.

Mark Hamel, I know.

That is crazy. To come see you. No, it's true, Mark. This is big for him. This is a big circle. This is huge. It's big for anybody, but it's big.

I had a rule with a stageman, and I said, Don't tell me who's out front, because what happened was I came in and everyone said, You know who's in the audience? Jack Jackie Gleason. I thought, Oh, no, because Hargan and Hart had been pitched to Gleason and Carny in the '60s, and it didn't happen for whatever reason. But he's really familiar with that era and that music and all of it. It was something I wish I had not known because you want to be totally there. You don't want to be thinking, Oh, what did Jackie think of that?

Right, for sure. Sometimes you can't help it because other cast members will be like, Did you hear Meryl Streep in the audience?

Yeah, it's terrible. They would tell me when I would come off, they'd hand me a note and I'd see who was there. But that must have been probably easier for you to do Levant than doing someone as recognizable as Jerry Lewis, and you just killed him.

Oh, thanks. You know what? Let me put it this way. My review was Oscar Levant, just as I remembered him.

Oh, God. That's what my dad wrote. Okay, so anyway. I can't believe Do you remember that?

Did Will and Jason meet on Arrested Development? Is that where you guys met? Yes, we did. Yeah, we did. By the way, I'm still mad they canceled that. Everything I like gets canceled. I hold grudges for it. I'm still mad they canceled Square Pegs, and that was 1982.

Oh, my God, remember that?

Oh, my God.

Yeah, Buffalo Bill. Sarah, Jessica Park never would have done Sex in the City. There you go.

Buffalo Bill with Dabnie Coleman, he and she. Oh, boy, was that good? Caluci's Department.

Mark, I got a question for you. When you said you had done the pilot, you got fired from 8 As enough. Is that what happened? Or you got replaced?

No, they redid it with, like I say, a different father.

Well, we call that fired.

Okay. Yeah, sure. I was fired.

But what year? How soon after that did Star Wars happen?

Well, I think it was probably six months later or something.

What's crazy about it is, the reason I bring it up, and I've talked about this before, is six months before I got the pilot for the rest of development that changed my life, I got let go from a show. They replaced my character. Actually, they just wrote them out. At the time, I was like, Oh, it was a series regular on a sitcom. I was going to make money and all this shit. I got so bad. Six months later, I didn't know that the universe had made space for me to do the thing that would change my life. See? Now, I didn't become a global superstar in the way you did, but still, it was the thing that really propelled me and gave me a career.

I had a similar thing happen. I got a part on the Texas Wheelers with Jack Elam, that cockeyed character actor from Westerns. Now, when he did It's, support your local Sheriff, support your local gunfire. Then he got to show his comedy Chops. This pilot was an irreverent. It was like the anti-Waltons. Gary Bussi was the titular head of the family because Jack comes back in the pilot having been in jail for stealing a car or whatever. But my character, Duby, Duby Wheeler, was... What I loved about it was he was hilarious, but he was so serious about himself. He took himself very seriously, thought he was a womanizer, even though he was a virgin, all these things. It was really for its time, in 1974, I remember the New York Times said, possibly the finest buccolic comedy since Tobacco Road. And I said, Oh, man, not only is this a breakout part, but it's a comedy part, because on the most part, I was playing real straightforward high school students and that stuff. So I was really jazzed, and it came out We made 13 episode. It got canceled after four episodes. And I was devastated because I said, I'm not going to get another good part like this.

I just don't see it happening. I was really, really depressed. But the upshot is if that had run, then I wouldn't have been able to do Star Wars.

Exactly. That's my point.

We would have had Freddy Kruger out there swinging around a lightsaber.

I mean, and that would have been, imagine all the scratch marks on Vader's cape.

No, it actually would have been Will Seltzer.

Oh, yeah.

Terry Nunn, she was in a band. Oh, I can't remember. Yeah, Terry Nunn. Terry Nunn, she was in not Joy Division. I don't know. You Google it. But I mean, like I say, it who's cast as a set. There was no mixing and matching.

Right. You came as a package.

Berlin. She's the singer from Berlin.

That's it.

The band Berlin.

Thank you.

Mark, I have, as I always say with my guests that I bring on that I have 7,000 questions. But I wanted to... We got to let you go because it's been an hour and we promised we'd only have you for an hour here. All the stuff I wanted to ask you about just like, coming Going back to the Force Awakens and what was that with JJ Abrams. Anyway, we'll talk about that at dinner sometime, hopefully. But I watched the fall of the House of Usher. I thought you were incredible. You have the Life of Chuck coming out on Netflix, which looks so good. You have The Long Walk, that Stephen King movie that comes out in 2025, which is fucking... That looks incredible. You've been getting all these accolades for the Wild Robot.

I'm in the new Spongeb Square Pants.

You're in the new Spongeb Square Pants movie.

Have you seen Wild Robot? I mean, it's funny that we should bring it up now That is where we're wrapping up.

I have. I've seen it. It's so great.

I heard it's fantastic.

It's so great. Look, I read the book. This book by Peter Brown. There's a reason it was the number one best seller in the New York Times and won all these awards. It is so perfect that I thought, please don't mess this up. If they can capture even 20% of the charm of this book were on a winner, and they kept the illustrations the exact same as in the book, the cast is beyond great.

I was reading the book to the kids. It's amazing.

But it's so effortless and it's so meaningful in this time about tolerance and joining together for the greater good.

That's where they lost me. To be honest, if I'm being real, that's where they- It seemed very timely given what we're going through.

But it's a huge hit and it's getting recognized, which is great. It's massive.

It's really good.

I'm so lucky. Mark, I just say just for me, you're such a delight, and I'm so excited that you're such a delight because Because myself, like so many people my age, you're such a part of just who we are and who we wanted to be and the fact that you have maintained such a kindness and a warmth and a decency in your person.

A willingness to embrace it.

It's such a relief. Thank you for being in your body.

Thank you for saying that. But I have to tell you, these people, when they come up to you and talk about it, they put it in such personal terms that it helped me get through my mother's, my father's divorce or whatever it is. I never get tired of it. It's like, oh, no, let's not talk about that again. I want to hear what they have to say. I think at this point, since I'm soft focus on the details, because I haven't seen it that much. And really, Luke had a light presence in the sequels. He did a silent cameo in the first one and a cameo in the last one. So I only had that middle part. But what I'm saying is it's something that I don't take for granted. I think how lucky I am because people say, oh, aren't you sorry that you're remembered for nothing? But Luke, when in God. I never expected to be remembered for anything. I just wanted a job.

What an absurd thing. If anybody actually says that, what an absolutely absurd fucking thing to say.

It's the most famous film in the history of entertainment.

Like you said, it's that connection I'm going to echo what Jason said for a kid who grew up in Toronto and saw it the first time at the Pleasant Theater on Mount Pleasant in Toronto, in the city, for me to be here all these years later talking to you, the impact That what you did.

But that you're a good person, too.

It's just- Then on top of it, you're a great dude is really something.

And I appreciate Sean mentioning, Follow the House of Buster, because I'm used to doing really bizarre and atypical roles in animation. This is the first time Mike Flanigan asked me to do a character that would have been routine in animation on camera. Yeah, you were so great.

Because I thought, here's this guy who is this soulless evil sociopath.

Naturally, they thought of me. Sure. I'm so grateful to Mike Flanigan. But we watched it.

I just love that. You knocked it out of the park. I loved you in that part. It was so unexpected and absolutely thrilling to watch.

It was really one of those things where when I read it, I thought, How am I going to do this? I usually have a slight concept of what is required of your character to make the whole thing work. It was a huge ensemble. Mike does these wonderful Haunting of Hill House, Haunting of Blind Manor, Midnight Mass. I was a huge fan of his, and I thought, even though I don't know how to do this, if he thinks I can do it, then by gosh, I'm going to do it. But it was really scary because when I was flying up Vancouver, I still I had no idea. And little by little, his wardrobe helped me pick out his wardrobe. As I said to the hair people, this guy wants to get out of bed in the morning, just draw with one swipe of the towel, so cut it short enough so it just lays down. It doesn't stick up, just lays down. Then they found the glasses. They found the hat. The last thing that came, which was really interesting because we didn't discuss it, but we were doing a scene in the Rodrick and Madelyne Usher's office.

And I said, how do I convey that this guy is completely dead inside died. And I just started talking like this. Well, I called him. He didn't call us back. I got a guy looking out for him. I didn't discuss it at the time. And I didn't say, I'm going to go in and do this voice. I just end the moment, said, Should I do it? And I did. And after we did a couple of setups, later in the day, Mike walked past me and just said, Love the voice. Yes. And I said, I'm home.

Great. You became a completely different person. I love that.

Yes. And that's so rare. You know how exciting it is that someone thinks outside the box of what you're known for. And I'm really lucky. And then again, he cast me in a small part in the life of Chuck, which, again, he said, I'm going to send you the script based on a Stephen King novella, and there's a part for you in it, and blah, blah, blah. So I'm expecting, okay, you got Stephen King, you've got Mike Flanigan. This is going to be the horror epic of all time. I'm telling you guys, it is the sweet status, poignant, warm story of a boy named Chuck at four different stages of his life. He grows up to be Tom Hiddleston. But it's so atypical of both of them. And I said to them when we made it, I said to Trevor Macy, the producer, I said, I don't know how we're going to promote this because it's indescribable. I mean, you have to see it to get it.

I can't wait to see it.

It's amazing. And I saw it at his house once, just in a little room. But when I saw it at the Toronto Film Festival with an audience, it was a revelation because it wasn't in competition, but it was voted favorite film because the audience becomes such a part of it that things that you didn't expect to get reactions got reactions. They laughed, they applauded, people were in tears. I mean, it's really special. What's that one called? It's called The Life of Chuck, and it's told backwards. It's act three, Act Two, Act 2, Act 1. I'm only in Act 1 at the end of the picture. But Tom is great. This boy that plays him at age 12, Benjamin Payjack. Remember that name? Because this kid, he can sing, he dances, he played. He was the Ron Howard part in the revival of Music Man on Broadway, Hugh Jackman. And I'm telling you, I wish you were my real grandson. He's just phenomenal.

I love that. I can't wait to see it.

Yeah, that.

That comes out in May.

Fantastic. In May. And then The Long Walk, I can't wait because that's a crazy concept.

The Long Walk, and by the way, I read that, I'm thinking, because I always read the books before they even see the script. It's excruciating. It's so horrible.

Yeah, it's 100 teenage boys are forced to participate in an annual thing where they have to walk at a constant pace or they get killed, right?

Or something like that. Yeah, there's people ready to shoot them in the head. I mean, I'm telling you, it's so gross. I thought, there's no way. I mean, I'll watch it maybe, but I can't do something like this. Again, my son read and said, Are you nuts? This is fantastic. You got to do it. But just the gun violence alone. Now, luckily, it's now they do it's CGI where you don't have to do squibbs and everybody gets cleaned up after each take because the bug goes flying. But I mean, it is really gross.

I love that. I love it. Well, you got a lot of good stuff coming up. By the way, if you have any Star Wars memorabil, you want to get rid of, please send It's a bit over. When specifically are you going to do Oscar in London? July through September at the Barbar Can Theater.

July, August, September. Like three months?

Well, no, seven weeks. Okay, seven weeks. Seven weeks. The end of July, two weeks.

Sounds like fun. Summer in England.

Yeah. There we go.

Mark, it's been an honor and privilege to talk to you. I echo what these guys say. I just can't even believe I'm talking to you. This is crazy.

Well, When I listened to you guys do with Steve Martin and Martin Short, I said, Well, after this, I've got to be a let down. Nobody can top those two. It was one of the best episodes you've been on.

You've been such a joy.

You hit the peak, sir.

You're incredible.

Thank you for joining us, Mark. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Paul.

Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Mark.

Thank you, Mark. Au revoir. Au revoir. If you ever get hungry, call me. I'll have a meal. Goodbye.

Thanks, Mark.

What a kind man you are.

Bye, buddy. Bye.

Bye, hon.

Well, Sean, you're going to be all right? You need to mop You need to towel off? Yes, I do.

I was sweating a little bit the whole time.

I mean, my Lord, what.

Isn't that crazy? He was supposed to come on for a long time. Now what? I know.

I'm done. You said Marquemin. Now, I mean, I guess you can make your way through the cast. Of course, Harrison would be amazing.

Yeah, Carrie would be hard to book, I'm sure. She would like that.

You want to say, Cut that now? Or no, she would love it.

She would love that. She would love that. But I didn't even get to ask him about the fact that actors, we measure our lives in milestone of jobs. We all talk, I was talking about I was doing this at that time and this. For him, Star Wars never... There's no end to that milestone. He reprised Luke on Mondalorian with John Feveral.

Oh, yeah.

He is so open and willing to share, to not shy away from it and to embrace it, which I think is really important.

Yeah, he loves the legacy of it. He's not frustrated that that was then and this is now.

Yeah, I like that about him. Sometimes they play it down like, Yeah, I did. You're like, No, no, no. It's a great thing.

Yeah, he was the star of, is the star of the biggest film, most famous film in the history of our business. Totally. It's just a remarkable thing, and thank God he's proud of it.

I know. Incredible.

Which is your favorite film of all the films, Shani?

Well, the Empire Strikes Back is pretty special.

Yeah?

Yeah. I mean, I live for all of them, but like- What was the thing about Empire Strikes Back? It was just, I don't know, it was a little more sophisticated. It was a little more...

We'll turn it back into a buy here.

A little. There's a little more.

No, I was going to do a special one. No, because I know a lot of people felt like that was... Well, A New Hope is the first one, so it's the first time you see it, so it's amazing. Yeah, huge. Empire Strikes Back is an amazing cinematic feat, and people weren't... They didn't love as much, and this is a very special Return of the Genti.

Nein, Jedbi.

Jedbi, Jedbi, we will allow.

I know, but it's stars. It's allowed for you. All right, fine. Smart.

Loss. Smart. Loss. Ess.

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