Transcript of How did Heated Rivalry’s Producers Make Their Massive Hit?

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Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swischer. Today, we've got a special bonus episode, and it's not about anything terrifying or depressing. It's about the most addictive, delightful surprise cultural phenomena of the decade, heated rivalry. I'm joined today by the show's creator, Jacob Tierney, and executive producer, Brenda braided. Welcome, you two. You guys are a truth already. Thank you.

Thanks, Cara.

We've been beset by some tech issues, but nonetheless, the gaze will prevail. The success of the show is about so many things: queer joy, sex, inclusion. It's an amazing business story, and that's really what I wanted to talk about. But first, for the fans, are we getting a standalone episode before Season 2?

I love saying now, this is Brenda. I would say that much like the best parts of this show, Just enjoy the yearn.

Enjoy the year. Is that on your T-shirt?

No, soon. Trademark, trademark. We trademarked it.

Yeah. Okay, because that means no. That's a no.

We'll see here. This is Jacob speaking now. Here's the truth, and that nobody actually wants to hear, is that we just don't know yet. We actually only finished this show basically a week before episode 6 air. This has been a massive surprise and endeavor, and we didn't really have a moment to catch our breaths before answering questions like this. The truth is we're getting a plan in place. We will have more information for folks soon. We understand that there's an appetite for a lot of this, and we're just trying to figure out what we can physically accomplish in the next year.

In the next year. One thing, this show has been a giant PR boost in your entire country. Here's Prime Minister Mark Carny at a recent media event. You had to, speaking of feel the year, but go ahead.

The world knows that Shane and Ilia are rising hockey stars who fall for each other as they face off in one of the greatest rivalries the game has ever known. But they're also two young men who are terrified of being their fullest self.

We live in an increasingly dangerous, divided, and intolerant world. A fundamental Canadian value is that people should be able to be whoever they want to be, to love whoever they want to love.

The narrative has become that it was a little show out of Canada, obviously made in Canada because American distributors were afraid of the sex content. Why don't you start, Jacob, the reaction, first of all, and the what you think is happening here? I'm sure you've answered this question, but he articulates it rather well is that people are upset and divided, and this brings a respite. But I think it's more than that, in my opinion. But why don't you start, Jacob, then you, Brenda?

I think that what the show did in a unpreachy, untrying to teach you a lesson way is just present queer joy. I think that that's its soft power. That's the thing that I think people are surprised by and that has hit people, at least from what I'm getting. I think that while there are queer stories out there, I don't think there's a lot of joy. I don't think that the profound joy that you only find in romance, really, that heart-filling, fantasy-fulfilling, desire-fulfilling things that you get to see don't happen to queer people in media. I think that that is the whoosh of it all. Especially men, especially.

There's a lot of lesbian content out there, I can tell you. I'm not into the L-word.

I think especially men. I think that, yeah, we just don't... To have a story that chooses to not... Obviously, our queer lives are filled with trauma, and I get that, and I think we all knew that. But I think that this show's desire to not focus on that, to focus on other parts of the queer experience as fantasy, and I fully admit.

It's a romance. It's from a romance novel.

It's a romance novel. I think that that's partly the reaction to it. There's a lot I don't pretend I can explain, but I do think that it is that. That's the big difference.

Yeah, it's different experience for gay people versus straight people, I think, because I was always waiting for the hit.

Yeah, I think we all are. I think especially because they have sex so early. We are trained that if we have sex, we will be punished. If we cannot have sex, we might be able to be happy, but we can't do both. You don't get to have a sex life and be happy. If you want to have a sex life, get ready to die. If you want to be happy, get ready to not have sex.

I think the other part of this, which Jacob has talked about a lot, and it was how we were pitching this when we were going out to people, which is this is a story written by women, and it's consumed primarily by women. We don't take female desire and stories seriously in media a lot of the times. I think a show like this that came out of nowhere is when we pitching it, we were really crossing our fingers, hoping that we were right. We were like, there is a built-in audience. These books are consumed. There's so many readers of all types of romance novels. They're there, and they are yearning for for these stories to be told. I think that was the other secret sauce in this is just this is a massive fan base that have not had their stories taken seriously, and they got to see it taken seriously, and they loved it.

We'll talk about that because romance, I always say everyone's like, Well, it's so popular. It's a romance novel. Romance novels are popular. It's one of those genres that people don't realize how big it is, how big that particular- It's been around since the dawn of time.

It's as old as a detective story. It's as old as All of romance. There would have been a time when Jane Austen would have been considered romance. I mean, these are- That's fair. It's dismissed, I think to Brenda's point, it's dismissed despite the fact that the romance genre carries the publishing industry in terms of fiction. I think it's dismissed because of the misogyny that we all endlessly live with, because it's something that appeals to women, is often written by women and consumed by women. Why would any... I've said this before. I was like, if this show was about a boy with a gun, somebody would have optioned this book 10 years ago.

Well, a hockey player with a gun. That would be interesting. Anyway, talk about this, but getting it made. We talk on this success on what it symbolizes. The difference between Canada and the US, though, even how these productions are funded. Talk about this idea of it was made in Canada because American distributors. Let me play very quickly a part of Mark Carny's speech about that and how it was funded.

On behalf of Canada's new government.

Look, I'm a politician. I'm not above taking credit for the Canadian funding that helped you share this story with the world.

I might not have been here when the decision was made, but I'm here now. I made, I green-lit this thing. I stood up to the Americans. That's amazing.

That was an amazing speech. Yeah.

I think that this The speech that he gave was at an event called Primetime, which is hosted by the Canadian Producers Media Association, the Canadian version of the PGA. The point of this was to raise awareness of what's going on in our industry because the entertainment landscape is under attack right now. We've been trying to update our systems, and because of Kuzma, because of the US wanting to come and tell us how to run our country and how our cultural sector needs to be dictated, there's a lot of concern about whether or not we're going to have a system in place that has cultural sovereignty for Canada. And so for us, what was so amazing about this experience and getting to see Mark Carny there is our show was made in the Canadian system, and it is very different from the US.

We- Explain it for people who don't understand.

So basically, the Canadian film and TV system has subsidies and equity and grant systems that are propped up by the Canadian government. So when you go to a broadcaster like we did with Crave, which is the streaming platform in Canada that commissioned the show, they go and Okay, great. Here is a license fee. Typically, it'll run between 20 to 30 % of the budget. Then we have a tax credit, both provincial and federal, and that brings another 20 to 30 % of the budget. And then it's always that last little piece that you're looking for, right? So the benefit to us in Canada as producers is it's unfortunate that we don't get necessarily the whole budget out of our broadcasters, but we, as the producers, own all the underlying IP. I see.

That is a big difference. You don't sell it to a studio. Exactly.

We are the studio in this system.

But the limitations on that are you have to go then raise money. How we did this with our show is We ended up talking to a couple of studios, some of them American, some of them Canadian. Ultimately, it wasn't the right fit from a creative perspective. We understand where everybody was coming from. This was, on paper, didn't seem like an amazing massive hit right out the gate. Luckily, when we were going through this process, Crave's parent company, which is Bell Media. Bell Media is like, if Comcast and Disney were merged into one in our country, they own everything from telecommunications to internet to sports.

And they have divisions like Crave, which is a streaming platform. Is it their only streaming platform? They have others, right?

Yes, it's their only streaming platform.

So it's like a Disney, Hulu or whatever.

Exactly. But they're also... And they have CTV, which is their ABC. So they have a terrestrial channel and they have streaming.

They have cable channels, they have a streaming platform. And they had just acquired a distribution company called Sphereabicus out of the UK. And so we were looking for that last 30 % of the budget, and they came in for 20 more % on a distribution advance. So the last 10 % was Jacob and I putting our producer fees, and we put in almost all of our producer fees, less what we had to keep back because you still have to pay for taxes. So it was a big gamble for us, but ultimately, I can- So what you would earned for this, the fees that are standard, right?

That's exactly right. What was the total budget here?

So we were just under 3 million Canadian an episode.

Amazing. That's pretty low, which is what?

I don't know if you know what a big deal is, but Brenda is telling the truth. Yeah.

We've been always- Kara Swischer gets this because she gets the truth.

She gets the truth. This is exclusive.

That's right. We were just under three- Per episode. Per episode Canadian. Right.

Because it looks great, by the way. It didn't look on the cheap or anything else because if you don't have- Well, that's also...

That speaks to Jacob and his amazing abilities. He's directing over 100 episodes of television, so he knows what he's doing. It also speaks to a way in which we like to work, which we feel really is different than the US system or typical production.

That is an enormously low amount. For people who don't know, it's very low for a rec. Television shows, I mean, the salary of- It's low for a sitcom.

It's deeply low for a one-hour drama.

It's deeply low for Most of those are the salaries of certain people, depending. Obviously, these were not well-known people, but still, it's still an expensive thing. I think most US ones, I feel like 10 million is the lowest they make.

It depends. It's between $4 to $10 million an episode US is typical, depending on what your level is. But yeah, costs have really skyrocketed over the last decade.

Is it less expensive to make this in Canada from a production perspective?

No, we have an efficient model. And I mean, yes, it is because we don't have the same level of money that is being thrown around. So we, by necessity, have to spend less. But we also did something here where we shot all six episodes in 36 days. Jacob directed all six of them. We block shot them like one giant movie. We talk about this when studios, especially US studios, come and say, How do you guys do this? And we go, It's crazy. You have all of your episodes written before you go into prep, and that's typically when we lose people and they don't understand. Right, because they write it through.

They write it through. Although that's changing in the US.

It is changing. It has to.

It's crazy to do it the other way, especially when you're not doing 22 episodes anymore. Back in the old model, when you're doing this volume of episodes where it's not possible to have them all written.

Well, you have writers on staff.

Well, exactly. You have to just be writing all the time. But if the new model is 8-10 episodes, there's almost no reason why this can't be accomplished before you start shooting.

So you start shooting. Go ahead.

Yeah, we start shooting, and then we do 10-hour shoot days, primarily. I'm not going to say it's not every day, but we try to keep our hours low. And there's a couple of reasons for this. A, as soon as you get into 12, 13 hours with crews, you end up paying for an additional day by virtue of the overtime. But we also just feel that my wife is an assistant costume designer. She was the assistant costume designer on this show. She's five months pregnant. Congratulations. Thank you. The departments that get hooped are hair, makeup, wardrobe with these pre-calls a lot of the time. Who are those departments run by? Primarily women. We also just feel that in our business, we need to change this mentality of endlessly shooting 15, 16-hour days, which is where the costs balloon.

What are you, a lesbian? What's happening here? I know. Anyway, Jacob, talk about your production style. Besides being truncated, making it tight, keep it tight, thing, you call it antifascist. Explain what you mean by that.

Well, I guess what I mean about that is there's a desire often for perfection that is, I think, not only unachievable, but also insane and cruel to be even attempting. There's no reason to do... If you're doing 25 takes of a scene because you don't like the performance of the actor. I'm an actor. I've been doing this since I was four years old. The problem is the scene. It's not the actor. You haven't written it properly. If you're not accomplishing what you need to accomplish, there's a fundamental issue. And by torturing people into repeating and repeating and repeating, I don't know what you're gaining.

And so that's- I just did. It was all day. I was like, why? I didn't get to think, why?

Why is it all day? To do nine different sizes on a closeup is insane. All of this stuff is crazy. It doesn't add to anything except exhaustion. And to overworking people. What I like to say is I would rather be surprised by an offering from an actor than control every last aspect of their performance. I've used a scene as an example. On the day when we were shooting, there's a scene in the sixth episode in the cottage after the boys had been caught by Shane's dad, where Hudson and Connor have a scene together, and essentially, he decides that he's going to go talk to his parents, that Ilia is going to come with him. When we were shooting it, I thought... I I wasn't convinced that I was going to use what Hudson was doing in that scene. I thought it might be too much. He was reacting. He had a big reaction, which is interesting for Hudson because he's a very internal actor, especially when he's playing Shane. I didn't say anything. I just watched it and I was like, This is interesting. I think I can cut around this. I think I can figure out how to get what I want out of this scene.

Then when I got to the editing room and my editor put the scene together, she loved what he had done. I looked at it again with new eyes and I was like, Oh, I actually love this, too. I'm so glad I didn't insist on some idea that I had in my head because what he brought to the table was more interesting, and it was surprising, and it was full of life. It wasn't part of some insane jigsaw plan that I had in my head that needs to fit together or everything falls apart.

Well, it's a different way of creating, right?

It is a different way of creating, but also I do believe fundamentally that filming TV is an ensemble process. It is. Otherwise, go write a book, go paint a picture. There's lots of ways to be in total control. But as soon as you invite other talents in, as soon as you invite, you're in a medium in which that is a part of how it's going to have to happen, to ask these brilliant people to work with you and then not listen to them or not use their skills.

Although that's the director genre, right? Like the director gets to run everything.

Yeah, and I think it's a crazy system. I want to work with talented people, and I want to... What are they doing here if I'm not going to listen to them, if I'm not going to incorporate their ideas, if I'm not going to incorporate what makes them so talented, why I wanted to work with them in the first place. And so So antifascist might be a big statement, but it's a rejection of an idea that everything has to come from one person and the brilliant man idea.

Yes, it's very top-down.

I've had very little experience, but I've been on several sets because I am now- The idea of somebody taking your cell phone from you when you get to work because they want you focused on their art?

It's so fucking hard, my friend, so fucking male and boring and stupid to me. Why does the group, he can't text his wife about dinner because your genius extends that? It's just exhausting.

Yeah, it's also long. It's tortuous. I kept saying to people, I got things to do. Exactly. This is a job. When you talk about owning this intellectual property, what does that mean now for you all? Because I own all my intellectual property, just so you know, and I think it's important. Explain why it is for you, especially in this space, because that's something that's been an anathema to the industry.

Well, I'll tell you what it means is Jacob and I worked on a show called Letterkenny & Shorsey, and the producers of that show made it in Canada as well. They had a robust merchandise business. When we were in postproduction, we decided because we retained all the intellectual property behind the series, that we wanted to take advantage of that and make a line of merchandise, which we're doing, which is now incredibly... It's become this amazing part of our business that we're super excited about. But it also means that ultimately, when we made the decision to reinvest our fees, it was because we knew that if this goes really well, we're going to benefit for the next 25 years off of this. And that is the difference. I think people always ask about, I guess you look at the Canadian system versus the American system. The Canadian system, you as the producers, if you want to take advantage of being a really, truly Canadian show, part of the The offering is the broadcasters can't own the IP the producers get to. And some people will look at that. But the flip side in the US is you're making way more money up front.

I don't think that either is right or the other is wrong. I just think that our system is something to protect because what's happening in the US, you can look to and say, I mean, is this fully working right now? Can we really argue that this system is better than ours? No. But I can say that for a hundred years, this business was run on the idea that creators and the people who made it got to own and benefit from what they did for their entire lives. And I think that that's something worth fighting for.

I think so completely. At some point, I wasn't going to make something for someone. And I said, you just have to give me the IP. And they said, why do you have to have it? I said, it's none of your business because I want it. Yeah, exactly. Because it's mine. It's not yours.

You need to come up with it. It's like the old musician, right? It was like, own your own publishing, right? Because why would you let somebody else administer your work and take all the profit from it?

That's correct. We have opportunities and we will work in this system that doesn't have that, and it'll be fine as well. But I just think that when we talk about there's so many reasons why budgets have exploded, the economy of scale on TV has just completely fallen out because we don't make enough episodes. We don't keep contain them into certain locations. But also it doesn't matter if you have a massive hit or a middling hit, you seem to win no matter what at that level. I think that there is something to look at as we move forward in these systems of giving It's the same people back end again. These old ideas should be new.

Right, which they have changed. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll have a question from a big fan.

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Com/vox. We're back with Heated Rivalry's executive producer, Jacob Tierney and Brenda braided, the people behind this huge hit, Heated Rivalry. I'm friends with Eileen Chake and the executive producer of The L-word, Handmaid's Tale, and many other shows. Of course, The ground-breaking gay show in the United States was this one, which was many moons ago. She had a question we're going to play for you right now. Jacob, I love your show. Absolutely love it. Congratulations. Here's my question. Our mutual friend, colleague, Agent Al, I met Felker, shared with me the outlandish and stupidly familiar story of getting heated rivalry on the air. All the rejections that preceded your fabulous and well-deserved massive success. Do you feel vindicated, pissed, annoyed, smugly, satisfied, grateful, just enjoying the process, more determined than ever to tell sexy queer human stories, some other emotion that I didn't describe or perhaps haven't had even experienced?

That's amazing. That's a great question.

She's great. For people that don't know, Elword really was- Elword was a brilliant show. Ground-breaking. Yeah, absolutely. At the time was shocking and showed people happy.

Yes, it did. It showed a lot of complexity. I mean, yeah, that's a real thank you for the question, and thank you for being a fan of the show. That's so cool. I'm sorry that Matt Felker is both of our agents. It's a joke. I love Matt Felker. But I can't pretend there isn't a part of me that's slightly smug. I mean, a show like this, what we're experiencing here with this show is so like beyond the beyond in the land of you can have a successful show as I did with Letterkenny previously, and it does not explode in this way and this level of attention. I'm in therapy, and I try to not be toxic exteriorly. I think that the lesson that I want to take away from this experience is to continue to trust myself creatively, because that is the thing that paid off, is that I felt very strongly, and I luckily had enough backing and support, Brenda, primarily, obviously, and then My creative, Craved family, all these executives there. I did trust something inside me that was like, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing what these folks want me to do.

Just to be very clear, it wasn't just Americans. It was other Canadians, too. It was a lot of people. They all liked the lean in like, Oh, you have a gay hockey show with sex. They were like, That's not what we meant. Too much sex, too much hockey, too little hockey, too little sex. Whatever it was, it was all like, Why is it like this? Can it be different? I really was like, I don't think it should be.

I think it should be What was the craziest thing? My ex-wife started Planet Out, and then they merged with gay. Com, and one of the venture capitalists said, Couldn't they just be hip people versus gay people? She was like, What? Just him.

The thing that was the most, you don't get this note that we got, I think, was the idea of needing a female entry point into this show because women wouldn't watch this show if there wasn't a woman protagonist. I was like, Women Women read these books. Women write these books. Gay men don't even know these books exist. These are for women. So that gap in understanding. I do think there's a thing with TV. A lot of executives, it feels like they get paid by the note. So if they are not coming in with a big thought, what are they even doing in the room? Most of the best executives that I know are the people that actually speak the least and that trust in creators. And then when they do give a note, I take it because this is somebody that is rolling in the same direction as me. This is somebody trying to make the same show as me.

In Jarls, we call it drive-by editing. Yeah, there you go.

I think that there was such a misunderstanding of what the audience wanted out of this. And what I chose to trust with my gut and the IP and the audience that was already enjoying it. I was like, why would you change this when it's already being consumed and obsessed over to this degree? Why do you think you know more?

What about you, Rhonda?

I've also... Listen, the best thing that happened was we were friends with a couple of folks who ended up passing because their bosses wouldn't get on board and letting them come to us and be like, I told my boss, look what you missed out. That is the fun part of the smugness. But to be honest, this has been absolutely nuts, Cara. This has been so crazy. It's so much bigger than we ever thought. I I think the thing that- Now everybody's your friend, right? Yeah, but also I just feel that, and I'm going to sound a little Pauleanish here, but I mean it. We are trying to also stay grounded by being of service to people. Part of the reason why we were at the CMPA thing with Mark Carne was to raise awareness for our industry. We're just trying to figure out ways to stay grounded with the people and the things that make... We've got this incredible platform. We want to use it to actually promote positive issues. And we're hoping that that's what we can do. And that's been the most fun thing that we've gotten to experience right now is hearing from people how their lives are being changed and how we are now able to actually affect a modicum of change, even if it's just pushing everything in the right direction.

We're not going to change the entire universe here. No, of course not. But the specificity of the things we are able to change has been really positive lovely.

In that genre, I want to play something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan last month about how streaming has impacted the creative process, because a lot of it, part of it are people breaking free, like myself many years ago, or I have a lot of people coming to me. I'm like, It's great out here. You don't need all that stuff. But let's hear what he had to say, and this is a very successful actor and producer.

So you said Matt Damon? Matt Damon.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

He's talking about the business. I've heard of him. I think I've heard of him. You've heard of him.

For instance, Netflix standard way to make an action movie that we learned was you usually have three set pieces, one in the first act, one in the second, one in the third. They ramp up in the big one with all the explosions, and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your finale. Now they're like, Can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody? We want people to stay tuned in. It wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or times in the dialog because people are on their phones while they're watching.

You know what I mean?

Talk about that. He would, by the way, make an excellent gay hockey player. Too old. An old gay hockey player.

A retired one. Sure. Listen, I should be clear, I love Matt Damon. I've always loved Matt Damon.

Talk about that, what's happening now in the creation. Do either of you feel pressure?

We've yet to really experience that, if I'm being perfectly honest. Crave was not like that. I will say that part of the reaction to the show that has been so interesting to me is people saying, This is a show you have to pay attention to. If you're on your phone, you're not going to get it because it's so much about what is not being said, about catching looks between people. It is dialog as avoidance and obfuscation. The storyline is actually really simple. They're in love, they can't admit it. It's actually not a super complicated plot in that way, but so much of it is about the ways in which they're avoiding each other, the ways in they cannot speak. That's why the sex is so important, because that's when they're being honest. I think there is definitely a move towards oversimplification. That being said, I wouldn't want to make too much of a big deal about It's like, Everybody wants an opening that captures you. That's not new. That's been a note since the dawn of time with stories. Let me in. What's the first scene? Why are you capturing my attention? I don't think that's insane.

I think that that's I think that this thing, you can see it, I think, in a lot of streamers where you're like, Oh, boy, you just explained a thing to me that I already know. I get that that can be frustrating, but I would also add, I am on my phone when I look up and realize you've said it to me this for the third time. And I'm like, Yeah, you're not wrong. I did drift. And I think that there can be room for both. Popcorny fun stuff that I don't care. And then every once in a while, something comes along and you need to pay attention. And that's okay, too. And then it's up to you to choose, is Is that too much for you? That's okay. Move it along.

Yeah, I actually didn't look at my... I have a rule, like how many text looks. Is it in a movie? How good is it if I don't pick it up at all?

That's so funny. We have shows in my household with my boyfriend that we put on to be on our phones with. We're aware of this, and we think of them as visual podcasts.

The Grammys. Sure. Grammys was a good one. When you have the Netflix acquisition of Warner, does that affect it?

Yeah. Well, yeah. I think we have no actual information on that. I would say, again, we just want more competition in the marketplace. I think that this is part in Canada, in everywhere, everywhere, really. But I think it's to the point I was making about, is this system in the US working really well right now? I don't know. Is that good? Is this going to be good for creators? It's really hard to tell at this point, but I would say I don't love that there's less places to go because in Canada, what we have, the reason why we ended up on HBO around the world is because Crave and Bell Media have the exclusive rights to all of HBO's catalog in Canada. We don't have HBO. We don't have HBO. You have Crave, and that has HBO on it. If we don't have that on Crave, does that What happens to them? That's a big part of why people go there. I mean, now in heated rivalry, obviously. But I think that it's a scary time as we see more and more mergers happening. I, for one, would love to see just more competition because I think it's way better when we have more.

But what I would say, too, is that because we're an acquisition, HBO is not actually creatively involved in this show. I think they say nice things about it. They're Which is great. Exactly. I think that that part is not really going to change, at least in the foreseeable future.

But now that the show is blown up, they're not suddenly have an opinion about everything.

No, because they're still getting it for the same price. I think it's worked out great for them. It's worked out really great for them. This is a very successful acquisition. It's clearly working well enough that I don't think they feel the... I think that this is just like, Keep doing it, guys. That's at least what Casey has explicitly quite said to us is like, Keep going.

But it can go elsewhere, right? Around the world, correct?

It's been sold territory by territory or chunk of territory by territory, in general, picked up by HBO outlets, Sky in the UK and Ireland and in New Zealand, a couple of other exceptions to that rule. But basically what they do is they buy it for... And then they have an option on the second season and potentially third season. So it's a a right of first refusal. So with an increase, they get it. So it's not really even to be renegotiated. It's just like you You either want this or you don't. There's no input into the content.

I have a couple more quick questions. One is about, obviously, everyone here in the entertainment industry in LA seems to be in despair in many ways in terms of what's happening, including with competition, with AI and stuff. Is there a big fear from you all about AI? Because some of the big hits this year have been the most non-AI type of content, like sinners, weapons, yours. I will continue to be.

I think that- I want each of you to talk about it.

Go ahead.

Rhonda has more thoughts on this than I do.

Okay. Yeah, I think that, listen, there is going to be a place for AI in how we work in this business. I actually think that there are a lot of opportunities, but I think it is in that tool for creators, not as the creative engine behind things.

Costuming, storyboarding.

I think even scheduling and budgeting and prepping, those kinds of things where you take an immense amount of time trying to just input data. So much of our jobs are data-driven, just trying to get information. Totally. I do think... Exactly. I think that those are the opportunities right away that we will see, and where I would love for people to focus their attention, because we were experiencing this, and I'm sure, Cara, you have had this with your team. Those moments of friction when you're trying to explain something to someone and they don't get it, that is hard to replicate. That is hard to do with AI in a way that actually gets you to a place where you're like, Okay, cool. We have now communicated together, and we are on the aligned and you're now going to- Speaking of friction, your whole show is about friction.

Hell, yeah.

But yeah, I think I think it's hard. I think we underestimate the importance of friction in the creative experience.

Yeah, I would agree. That's exactly how I say it. I talk about it. The words tech people use are always seamless, frictionless, convenient. They're always using those words. I'm like, no, friction is critical for you being here. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. What about you, Jacob? Do you think about it all?

Confuses me. No. No is the answer. I don't think... Again, the way that Brandon speaks about it is that makes sense to me. I can imagine it helping me with some stuff, but it's not going to write for me. I don't want that either. I love what I do. I don't want someone... I don't need that help, is the way I would say. Yeah.

So Before we go, what would you want to do if you could do anything? You guys are now the world is your oyster thing. Obviously, you're going to do another season of this, maybe two, three, whatever, because there's lots of books for people who don't realize. What would you want to make? Would you direct, say, a point break remake with your hated story?

Another one?

Where they finally fuck. Where they finally fuck.

I don't know about that. I'm I'm very open to a father-son story with Hudson Williams and Keanu Reeves, however.

They do look alike.

We do. They really do. Keanu is Canadian. He can come home. We can do a fun thing together. I'm certainly being offered a lot of things, and I'm very excited about what's next.

Is there anything you're like, God, I have to do that?

I can't really say, but I can tell you that once I can talk about a couple of things, They are one of which in particular is a dream come true. I'm excited to be able to eventually talk about it, but I can't at this point.

But right now. We have a whole production company that we're running with a lot in development. It's about getting these projects, the projects that from a producer standpoint, what we really want to get made, we have a number of shows. The one that is about to go out is called The King is Dead, and I'm going to plug it right here because it's from an amazing Indigenous writer out of Canada named Tim Fonteyn. Crave is already signed on for development. We're looking for that other partner because it's basically a It's an action adventure comedy set in the 1700s. I know. Bear with us.

No, no. Hello, Outlander.

Yeah, 100 %. But it's a comedy about a group of Indigenous folks tired of all these white people coming to North America. They take a boat, traverse back to England in an attempt to kill King George III. Oh my God, it sounds hysterical. It's a revisionist history.

It's like Monty Pai John energy. It's Very funny, and we're very excited about that show.

Yeah. That's in development with Crave right now, and we're very excited about that one.

All right. Well, everybody loves you. The boys are getting a lot of attention, which they must be having a ball, it looks like, but you guys deserve equal amounts of Thank you very much. We think what you make is amazing. Thank you. In this time in the United States, it was just what was needed. So get that episode out. Get that special episode out.

We will do our best. And thank you for having us on your podcast.

Yeah, we really appreciate it.

Thank you, Cara. Thank you, Jacob. And thank you, Brenda. Thanks to the audience for listening to our special bonus episode of Pivot. We'll be back in our feeds on Tuesday, and I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin, Brandon McFarlon engineered this episode. Jim Macle edited the video. Nishad Kurwa is a Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag. Com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And Scott, eat your heart out. I got the heat of rivalry, guys.

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