Transcript of ABC Pulls Jimmy Kimmel, Pam Bondi’s Free Speech Mess, and Trump Sues The New York Times

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Hi, everyone. This is It from New York magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swischer, and I have not been canceled yet. What about you?

I think the keyword there is yet.

As if.

As if. Yeah, I'm Scott Callaway. I don't like Kara.

Yeah, still. Unless they rename you because they don't like that name.

I'm sitting here in Nashville, massively jet lagged. I was in London about 22 hours ago, and I'm in New York and now here. I'm watching across. I'm staying at the... Where am I? Grand Hyatt? No, I'm staring at the Grand Hyatt and the J. W. Marriott. Across the street is this parking lot being torn down by these two massive cranes. That's fun to watch. It's broadly relaxing. Yeah, it's fun. I've just been sitting here thinking a lot of metaphors with the US society. But anyways, I'm in Nashville. Where are you?

I'm back in DC. I was in Ann Arbor yesterday doing my class at the University of Michigan and also interviewing Pete Buttajage. Are you where your son is? Pete Buttajudge. Yes, yes, where my son is.

I'm sorry. What are you teaching in Michigan? Justin.

Scott Gallow, A 101. That's really. I just talk about you.

That's all I do. Baby, unlocking my heart is an enigma.

Will you come talk to the class? I think they would like that.

Oh, 100% no.

Remote. A remote?

Yeah, I would do remote.

You have to look at the camera so people look at your pretty face.

No, I'm sorry. I'm looking literally at this parking lot being torn down. Next thing you were going to want me to stop masturbating in the middle of our podcast. Leave me alone.

All right. Listen to Ben. Listen to it. I think I'm the only person who didn't care that he did that. I saw him recently at CNN.

You know, remote work is just going to have some externalities, folks.

I was like, Is that okay? Whatever. I mean, it was not in good taste, I would say, but I wouldn't have say fired him.

No, no, no, no, no, His taste immediately implies that he made a conscious decision to masturbate with a camera on. He didn't. He didn't realize. He was at home. I'm going to go out of a limb here and say he's not the first person to masturbate at home. I don't think he thought, I know what I'm going to do. I just thought he's like the lawyer. I'm talking about habeas corpus. I think I'll yank one out.

Those were the simple days. Those were the simple days. Those were such innocent times. Such a simple time. Such innocent times. Listen, you have to stop looking at the window and pay attention. You've got a lot to get to. I'm sorry. You've got a lot to get to. You know what? Saul has a video he watches of Diggers, and this is what it's like. You're like a three-year-old boy. It's amazing.

Anyway. Well, you know my favorite TikToks now? Have you seen these amazing mastive pitbulls? They have some guy lay out a raw turkey, a chicken bone, eggs, tomatoes, and a pineapple. They say, Okay, Brutas. And Brutas just eats all these things whole.

Scott, you're so weird. I'm like watching flour arranging and cooking, and you're like a guy who makes French onion soup.

Trust me, I've watched much weirder stuff.

I figured. I'll leave your video on so you don't masturbate today. I'm not in the mood.

I've watched much weirder stuff and then done my impersonation of Jeffrey Toobin as I watched it.

We're going to leave Jeffrey Toobin out of this because we got a lot of news to get to, as usual. I mean, Jesus. Okay, let's go. Abc is pulling Jimmy Kimmel Live off the air indefinitely after a comedian made a joke about the Charlie Kirk shooting, which is actually factual. Let's listen to exactly what Kimmel said. We had some new lows over the weekend with the Maggie Gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it.

In between the finger pointing, there was a grieving.

On Friday, the White House flew the flags at half staff, which got some criticism.

But on a human level, you can see how hard the President is taking this. My condolences on the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk. May I ask, sir, personally, how are you holding up over the last day and a half, sir? I think very good. And by the way, right there, you see all the trucks? They've just started construction of the new ball room for the White House, which is something they've been trying to get, as you know, for about 150 years, and it's going to be a beauty. Yes. He's at the fourth stage of grief, construction.

By the way, Kimmel posted on Social Media after Kirk was killed, sending his love the Kirk family into all victims of gun violence. Sec chair, Brandon Carr, who's got to be the most unctuous toady in a sea of them in the Trump administration, blasted Kimmel in an interview with right-wing podcaster, Benny Johnson on Wednesday, calling Kimmel's comments, The sickest conduct possible, which is inexplicable. He suggested ABC's broadcast license was at risk, threatening, We can do this the easy way or the hard way, which gives me every indication his penis is Very small. Next Star, the owner of several ABC affiliates and the company seeking FCC approval for its $6. 2 billion acquisition of rival media company Tegna. They need an out because they have over 39% ownership across the country, announced it would Kimmel's show, Sinclair Broadcast Group, which is also owned by Conservatives who also own ABC stations, followed demanding Kimmel apologize and make a personal donation to the Kirk family and Turning Point USA, Kirk's organization. Disney CEO Bob Iger and the company's TV chief, Dana Walden, then made a decision to take Kimmel off the air. Trump celebrated the move as great news for America and urge to NBC to pull the plug on Seth Meyers and Jimmy Fallon.

I don't know where to fucking begin here. Is Bob Iger the worst person on Earth at this moment? I think possibly, and I'm not really clear what happened here with them. Secondly, Necstar and Sinclair are now telling us what we can do and don't do that. They can take it off the air. They own the company. Fine, whatever. Brandon Carr, to me, should be the focus of this, and Donald Trump. This was a ship rolls downhill thing. He essentially threatened them. With We can this the easy way. I'm excited for the lawsuit that will ensue because of this. They are quashing free speech, and I'm not talking about Necstar and Sinclair. They're just horrible jodes. This is a problem with Brandon Carr, who's always been a problem, who has had millions of quotes saying, We should never do this. I can read them over and over again. Then, of course, it began with Donald Trump, who's been attacking Kimmel for a long time and predicting he be fired. Scott, initial reaction when you heard the news?

Well, I think Bob Iger is going to go down in history as Neville Chamberlain in a cashmere sweater, minus the dignity. Unfortunately, Neville Chamberlain was actually a pretty decent man and thought he was doing the right thing, and he's become a bit of a footnote in history as someone who defines the word appeasement. But one thing's clear. I doubt Bob Iger is really happy he came back. I think this is a terrible footnote on his legacy. When these people bent a knee, they broke the dam. Sherry Redstone paid basically a VIG to get her deal done. Iger did. Now you have this guy, Brenda Carr. We don't have a director of an FBI. We don't have an SEC chair. What we have is people who are acolytes of President Trump and are just enacting his will and hope that once they get out of office, he'll carve up, bite down for some other company and make them rich. This is full oligarchy now. It has nothing to do with the government. They control all three houses. They essentially have a very sympathetic Supreme Court. I admire. They're all about We're just going to do everything we want.

We're an autocrat. You said something that always struck me that I love the Washington Post statement, democracy dies in darkness. And you've always said, No, it's dying in full light of day. Look, I don't They could make an argument. I said this about Colbert. I don't think this is the same here. Let's just talk a little bit about Jimmy Kimmel. Disney is not losing a lot by canceling Kimmel. Only 12% of his viewers are aged 18 to 49. At an average of just 220,000 viewers within the demographic, and by the way, that's down 10% from the same period last year, it's down two-thirds by 2015. Overall, the show averages about 1. 8 million viewers a night. That means about 1. 6 of that, 1. 8 are 50 plus. Look, it's not... The show has probably a hundred- Sure, that's a different decision. It's 180 employees. Having said that, if Bob Iger had decided, I'm a billionaire, I've had a wonderful life in no small part because of the rights of free speech and appreciation for basic capitalism and appreciation for fidelity to the law. I'm already a billionaire. Maybe it's time I actually tried to do the right thing.

He decided not to do that. He wants to get the stock price up and I think just get the hell out of Dodge or get the company sold. I don't know.

He wants to sell it to Apple. That's what it feels like to me. I want to read some Brandon Cahr quotes because I think we should... Listen, Iger, I don't even want to speak to him again at this moment. I really like Bob Iger. We know each other very well. I've interviewed him dozens of times, but I am so embarrassed for him. I'm embarrassed for his wife, who runs a journalism school. I don't know what she's going to say to her students today. I don't want to drag her into it, but she runs a journalism school. She's got some explaining to do, I think, on behalf of her husband. It's not her decision, but nonetheless, it's awkward, I would say. Iger could have quit. He could make excuses all he wants about shareholders. I know he had some right wingers on his ass quite a bit, including Elon Musk, including, I think it's Ike Paul Mutter, et cetera. It doesn't matter. He had a duty to something bigger here and is one of the few people who probably could have done this and pulled it off correctly. I know he was very upset and worried about danger when Nazis were protesting outside of Disney.

I get all that. I get the shareholder thing. I get worried about safety. But at some point, stand up, man. This is just like, and he could do it. Let me focus on Brandon Carr, though, because This is really the real problem here. All the right is now saying, Oh, Sinclair can ask anything of anyone. Of course they can. They're terrible people, and they want to... That used to happen in the old days when television first started. But let me read some Brandon Carr things from 2019. Should the government censor speech it doesn't like? Of course not. The SEC does not have a roving mandate to police speech in the name of the public interest. Then he said in 2023, 2023, free speech is the counterweight and is the check on government control. This is why censorship is an authoritarian's dream. Then back in 2022, President Biden is right. Political satire is one of the oldest and most important forms of free speech. It challenges those in power while using humor to draw more people into the discussion. That's why people in influential positions have always targeted it for censorship. Jd Vance today. Everyone, please congratulate Marco Rubier, the host of ABC's new Late Night show.

I mean, whatever that alleged couch fucker says is always stupid. I don't think he did fuck a couch, by the way. Let me just be clear. This is what's the problem here. Then today, Carr also then said, FCC, he He said Sinclair has every right to demand that Jimmy Kim will donate to Turning Point USA. He needs to shut the fuck up. I honestly don't know what else to say about this guy. It's going to be lawsuits. He is crossing the line as a government official, making these threats due to his speech? I don't know. He's the one we need to focus on, despite the fact that Iger is such a disappointment.

Well, it's going to be easy to talk about how insanely hypocritical this is, and then we should try and move to, I've been going down a rabbit hole around what we can do about it. In 2023, Fox described cancel culture, driven largely by woke ideology. Tucker Carlson asked his audience, If you want to know how free your society is, just ask a really basic question. Am I allowed to make fun of people in charge. Can I mock them? Can I tweet? That not with violence, but with words. If you can, you're in a free country. If you can, it's not. That's Tucker Carlson. Representative Jim Jordan claimed in 2021, that cancel culture is the most dangerous thing happening in our country today. In 2020, Trump told the RNC, The goal of cancel culture is to make decent Americans live in fear of being fired, expelled, shamed, humiliated, and driven from society as we know it. In a 2020 campaign rally, Trump said, The unhinged left-wing mob is trying to vandalize our history and punish cancel and persecute anyone who does not conform to their demands for absolute and total control. Pam Bondi, targeting hate speech on the Katie Miller podcast.

We're going to play... This is attorney general Pam Bondi. It is cleaning up after the mess after remarks about free speech pissed off people on both sides. Let's listen to it, and then you can comment on it. She made this on the Katie Miller podcast. There's free speech, and then there's hate speech. There is no place, especially now, especially especially after what happened to Charlie in our society. Do you see more law enforcement going after these groups who are using hate speech and putting cuffs on people so we show them that some action is better than no action? We will absolutely target you, go after you, if you are targeting anyone with hate speech. Now, to be fair, as you know, Tucker Carlson was one of the ones on the far right who was pretty fired up about this, but in the way that It's different. Let's listen. You hope that a year from now, the turmoil we're seeing in the aftermath of his murder won't be leveraged to bring hate speech laws to this country. Trust me, if it is, if that does happen, there is never a more justified moment for civil disobedience than that, ever.

And there never will be.

Because if they can tell you what to say, they're telling you what to think, there is nothing they can't do to you because they don't consider you human.

They don't believe you have a soul. A human being with a soul, a free man, has a right to say what he believes, not to hurt other people, but to express his views. It could also hurt people with your speech. That's fine, too. I mean, anyway, we'll get to Trump in a minute, but go ahead, what your point was.

Well, okay, so hate speech. What Jimmy Kimmel said, I thought I had the wrong clip. That qualifies as hate speech. I mean, the First Amendment, it basically says, all right, it's not If you incite violence, if you defame people, that's not legal. But quite frankly, we said much worse things about Trump than what Jimmy Kimmel said. Okay, could hate speech be, President Trump should be incarcerated at a minimum and possibly executed while in prison? Is that hate speech? Well, Charlie Kirk said that about Biden. We're going to have The attorney general is now threatening to target people, and that's an authoritarian government. It's pretty clear what's going on here. Cbs has been sold to the Ellicons, and NBC and ABC are basically under threat of being silenced and potentially losing their business because the acolyte of Trump running the SEC is threatening to pull their licenses, and the nation's top cop is threatening to target people based on what appears to be a bar for hate speech that is the following: speech that disparages or that is critical or even mocks in a humorous way. We're going to spend the next few days distracting from Epstein, talking about invalidating what we all know.

This is a violation of law which may not be upheld or take a long time in court to be upheld with current The current Supreme Court. We know it's directly contrary to everything or one of the things that's been key around free speech in our country that makes our country great. We're going to spend a ton of time talking about it. What I want to talk about and what I've been researching Getting up at 3: 00 in the morning with jet lag is what we can do about it. I used to think, well, people will rise up, they'll vote in '26. Okay, I don't know how much damage will be done by then. People will be outraged. But the bottom line is the majority of people I'm here in Nashville, went out to get some coffee are just going about their lives and don't see a big difference. To call on them to think they're going to do something, yeah, you hope so, but so far... I mean, the markets are up today. What I think we need to think about, and I think the only thing that moves the needle here, I'm increasingly convinced, is some national economic strike.

I was going pretty deep into the rate cut yesterday and some of the economic reports. And get this, the top 10% income earning households now are responsible for 50% of the spending. Which basically says what we all know, income inequality is out of control and it's the rich people who have all the money. But the top three and a third % are responsible for 25% of all spending. I don't think consumers and people who have money realize how much power they have. They have more power now than senators, Warren or any comedian on the left. I think what we're going to need to do, and I've been thinking about this myself, or I was doing a ton of research this on this morning. I mean, there's the meaningful and there's the profound. The meaningful would be to, or the trivial, I should say, cancel your Disney Plus subscription. Okay, and then we're going to see a bunch of screenshots of people who have canceled their Disney Plus subscription. Oh, my God, the whole fucking parking lot just collapsed, Cara. I wish I had that on film. Anyway, Jesus, that's a metaphor. Did it just happen?

Did they just cancel Anderson Cooper? Anyways, what I'm beginning to think about personally, because I don't want to wait till '26, I have business relationships and capital With and in Silicon Valley Bank, J. P. Morgan, Bank of America, Northern Trust, Goldman Sachs. I'm contemplating transferring all of my assets to Lloyds or HSBC. I'm trying to figure out if there's someone we could call on who's a real leader who could rally the top three and a third % responsible for 25% of the spending to in, say, December, not buy Christmas presents, maybe stay at home, not go to St. Bart's, maybe try and reduce their spending by 10, 20%, which, quite frankly, really doesn't impact the top three and a % income earning households. That is literally pure consumption. Trying to take the economy... If you took the economy's growth down for one month by 1%- In protest, that's what you're saying. Say, Look, I'm not going to fund a move towards an autocracy.

Well, unfortunately, the people you're talking about feel very comfortable, and that's what they do. They keep those people comfortable. Before we get to that, I'll just note, the issue is this group of is not stopping. Before we get to fixes, you need to know what's coming. Trump kept up his litigious streak this week, filing a $15 billion defamation suit against the New York Times and four of its reporters, as well as Publishing House, Penguin random House. As you just noted, and as comedian Margot Chow put it, no matter what he cancels, he can't cancel himself off the Epstein list. Let's keep that in mind. Now, Bondi tried to walk it back a bit because she was getting so much flack, largely from Maga. Freedom of his speech is a sacred our country. We will never impede upon that right. But her comments came as the Trump administration officials, including vice President J. D. Vance, are calling on people to report Charlie Kirk critiques. These people are so hypocritical that they just don't even care anymore to even hide it. Let's listen to what Vance said while he was hosting the Charlie Kirk podcast.

Civil society, Charlie understood this well, is not just something that flows from the government. It flows from each and every one of us. It flows from all of us. When you see someone celebrating Charlie's murder, call them out in hell.

Call their employer. Oh, good Lord. This is exactly what Charlie Kirk said not to do. Like, that everybody there's evil speech is fine. He even said it in one of his speeches. He said, This is what greats our country. This is so ridiculous. Trump is also now designating Antifa, which means antifascist, as a terrorist organization, despite the fact that it's an ideology, not an organized group. That's another thing. But they are relentless. They will next go after NBC, presumably, because Trump puts a roadmap up. Ellison is trying to buy CNN, which should not be allowed, but under Brandon fucking Carr, it will be. Everyone who needs something from the government should realize they are a target. Everyone that needs them from the government, and even those that don't, hell, call your employer, that thing. Vice President, who is just so inadequate to every task he is given, that's what's going to happen. So one of the things you should realize is try to anticipate their next move. I think it'll be NBC, then CNN. They'll continue to go at the New York Times that they will lose, but it'll still take time and effort from the New York Times.

They've already got the Washington Post under the overly steroided-looking Jeff Bezos with some very bad facial changes he's made. But it It is. Come on. You'd think you were that rich. You'd have a better, just my opinion about that.

I don't like it. I don't like it. I think it looks good. I think it looks great.

No, I think he looks shiny.

He looks great.

He looks like one of those housewives.

I think the facial hair of Pete Buttish and the chest and the packs of Bezos, and I'm rethinking everything here.

I know you are. Listen, I know you like a train daddy. So any other thoughts on this? I understand what to do, but I think these people are going to be relentless they are stopped at the voting booth, and that is the only place.

I don't know if we can- We can wait.

It's another year.

I don't know if we can wait that long. First off, okay, so let's look what's going on.

Because that's what they're targeting next to, the inability of people to vote. Against them, which people want to do.

Normalizing the National Guard in cities. You have CBS, NBC, and ABC. Cbs has gone to Ellison, and NBC and ABC are now under threat of having their licenses pulled. Then you have... So What did we have? We saw that a concentration of power and consolidation of media in the media that counts, basically alphabet and meta, has led to a dramatic uptick in rage, a dramatic uptick in teen suicide, and basically a coursing of our discourse. Now we're seeing a concentration of what I call traditional media. Quite frankly, that symbolism is really dangerous because it symbolizes a move towards an authoritarian rule. It doesn't have that much impact because the reality is, These are declining businesses with less and less influence. In a weird way, it's going to help some of the new media properties that are a little bit more fearless. I mean, if NBC and ABC just become starked, whitewashed, scared. I mean, even MSNBC, when I was on there and I said, We elected an insurrectionist and a rapist, and Mika was compelled to say that he was actually found liable for sexual abuse. When they have to do that, all that's going to do is make these shows seem so fucking vanilla and boring that they're going to turn to some of the new media outlets online, and there's a lot of them, and it's going to put new wind in their sales.

The issue I have is I just am done We know this is wrong, and I'm frustrated that there isn't more thoughtful strategic economic pushback, because we know this is wrong. Look, this is pretty simple. That Kimmel clip was like, really? That's what got them removed? But let me ask you, what do we do? Other than wait for 26, what do you think we should do?

I do think just, I think, focusing in on media that can't be manipulated like this so easily. Of course, lawsuits are always hanging over the head of everyone in media. But look, CBS is dying, let's be clear. Like, away from all of this stuff, the fact that Trump is targeting the stuff that nobody watches anymore is interesting. And Jimmy Kimmel, late night. It's a whole plot on hacks that it's dying, right? It's already in the zeitgeist. So Late Night is too expensive and doesn't have enough audience. Cable, same thing. Networks, forget it. I would think these companies would get out of the broadcast business and say, Fuck you, Brandon Carr. Do whatever you want with this, because nobody's watching the TV. They're watching it on YouTube. They're watching it on Reddit. They're watching it on wherever kids, and not just kids, everybody's watching it. They're streaming. Are they going to try to regulate streaming now? They can't. They don't have that pull into streaming. So if I was Iger, I would have put Kimmel on streaming. Just put him. Okay, you don't like him here? Let's just put him on streaming and cut costs and work that.

Well, that's what he'll do.

Right. But if I were Iger, I would have said, let's- Iger won't do it.

Iger won't do it. Jimmy Kimmel will do it. Jimmy Kimmel has a big opportunity. He's going to take his 180 people. He's going to take his best 15, and he's going to start YouTube channel.

Same thing with Colbert. That's the thing. Let's just make our things and be very careful. Law seats will be their next thing. That's obviously. But there is way too much media that is growing for them to control all of it. I think, look, we got to just burn those ships and move on. That's the thing because this is how Trump lives. He lives in the '80s in his head. So CBS, ABC, and NBC are the be all and end all. But they're not. They're not influential anymore. We should just move along and make our stuff. We should grow and conservative outlets should grow, whatever it happens to be. I was, although I think Tucker Carlson's really... Something's going on with him. When he articulated, it was absolutely right.

We both have our issues with Tucker. I think Tucker right now is the most likely nominee for the Republican nomination. I think he has been very good lately.

Well, he's consistent, at least, right?

Well, about housing, for young people, he comes across as intellectually honest. He comes across as courageous, not afraid to go against his own party. I realize I'm talking our own book here. Our downloads are up 10% in the last 30 days. And guess what? Everyone from Megan Kelly to Joe Rowe, you're going to see a lot. Increasingly, people turn to podcasts like The Daily because The New York Times is fearless and does the work. You're just going to see media that is not scared of Brenda Carr or can't be controlled by Brenda Carr. Boom. Because people are really interested in what's going on, and they like fearless. I'll give you an example. Don Lemon.

Don Lemon is doing a great job.

Don Lemon is doing such a fantastic job. First off, I love people who just work really fucking hard.

I was watching Senator- He's out and about. People don't know. Explain what he's doing. I love this.

He's a man on the street. He's totally unafraid. He shows up to everyone with a mic. He responds thoughtfully. He's forcefully yet dignified. He's clearly working his fucking ass off. The reason I love Don Lemon is the same reason I loved Secretary or love Secretary Clinton or Senator Klobuchar. It is just so obvious these people work their asses off. They get up early and they think, How can I be great at what I do by just showing up over and over and over? Don Lemon must be working 14 fucking hours a day.

He's outside. He's running around. He wrote me. He's like, What do you think? I'm like, I love the Don Lemon in the street. He's doing a great job. Great job. Everybody should watch it because this is where he shines, I have to say. Same thing, Brett Stevens wrote a great piece. Karl Rove wrote a great piece. He's like, This is not good.

You know who else is doing a great job? Again, I go back to the same thing. Regardless of AI or what happens to our economy, people who are curious and work really hard and try to be courageous and even take some risks, and maybe they make mistakes, are still going to have great economic futures. The Bullwork, Tim Miller. How are they putting out all that content all the goddamn time? I don't know who Tim's husband is, but he's not seeing Tim a lot, or Dawn's husband. These people, they are working so hard. They're rising to the occasion. They're being totally unafraid. You're going to see a massive, the continued, the acceleration of the flow. It's not meaningful. What's most meaningful here is this represents a naked disregard for many of the laws and American principles that have given us so many freedoms and so much economic growth. But the actual tangible business level, it's not going to really decrease our inability to get good information. If Jimmy Kimmel launches Jimmy Kimmel Live, now streaming or on Substack or podcast with great video production, it's going to get the same audience with more young people.

Yeah, that's right. Because he's funny. That's what they should do. He's talented. That's what they should do. He's incredibly talented. By the way, just like Anyway, I also urge people to watch the episode. Jean Smart gave an amazing statement on Kimmel, but there is a scene where she gives a speech. This happens to her. They want her to cut someone, the woman she's very close to, who got her where she is, and she won't do it. She ends up quitting on her dream of being a late-night show host. But her speech is astonishing. They already presage something like this happening. Tony Golen plays this evil, looking like Bob Higer type of person. I have to say that it just really was prescient. Hacks was in the last season. It's coming back for another season. Anyway, good luck, Jimmy. One of the things, though, I do think people are a little more upset about this. They're coming for the straight white guys, and that's something that is worrying some.

Say more. I hadn't even thought about that angle.

I mean, it's like, listen, there's all kinds of attacks on Laticha James and everybody. A lot of Black women cook at the Fed, which was untrue, et cetera. Now they're coming for the straight white guys. I think a lot of people are like, Hold on, what? That's the thing that I think starts, I hate to say it, starts to get people going. It shouldn't, obviously, but they've been coming for trans people.

I don't sense that at all. You have a better spotty sense. That didn't even cross my mind.

I do. I think trans people are like, Oh, that's bad, but Black women, that's bad, but... Now it's like, What? Look the reaction. It's overwhelming in the media. I mean, it's indignant and angry.

My sense is that the thing about Kimmel was with Colbert, and I believe this, I thought Colbert was an economic decision. Kimmel, when I mean, people just look at that clip and go, Wait, that gets you canceled now?

And also that it came right after Brandon, Fuck that guy, car.

Then when you have Pam Bondi, the nation's top saying we're going to target people? Yeah, exactly. You're not supposed to target people. You're supposed to find evidence of wrongdoing.

Sinclair and Nexer has every right to do this. It still makes them assholes.

Well, we have every right to cancel our subscriptions and not watch their programs and sell their stock.

By the way, their programming sucks. Anyway, we have to go on a quick break because when we come back, we have more ridiculous clown car activity FBI Director Cash Patel faced Congress. Support for Pivot comes from Quince. Fall is in full swing, which makes it the perfect time to refresh a wardrobe and pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm, and stay big without compromising on quality. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50, washable silk tops and skirts, and perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. By partnering directly with top-tier factories and cutting out the middlemen, Quince delivers luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish, and effortless. I've gotten some items from Quince. In fact, I'm wearing several now, mostly sports stuff, and they actually feel very luxurious and expensive, much more so than the ones that are more expensive and cost double and triple. I mostly wear my Quince stuff to work out and just lounge around it, and I love it.

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There's a better, freer way to move through your day, and it might just change how you feel about commuting. An eBay from Upway can give you that feeling of freedom. Fresh air, no traffic, no stress. It's not just good for your health, it's better for your wallet, your time, and honestly, your happiness. Upway makes it easy. They offer top brands like Specialized, Cannadale, and Aventon at up to 60% off retail. Every E-bike is thoroughly inspected by a professional mechanic and comes with a one-year warranty so you can ride with peace of mind. You can search by brand or style, book a call with a real human for help, or even stop by their showrooms in New York or LA. So go to upway. Com upway. Co and use code pivot150 to get $150 off your first E-bike purchase of $1,000 or more. That's upway. Co code pivot150. Go ahead, you won't rigor at it. Scott, we're back with more news. Fbi Director Cash Patel testified for the House Judiciary Committee for two heated days this week. It was ridiculous. Before questioning began, Patel used his opening statement to take credit for identifying Charlie Kirk's assassin and told the committee he wasn't going anywhere.

It's probably true, Donald Trump doesn't fire incompetent people. When questioned on the Epstein files, Patel claimed he was barred from recent quarters from releasing all the documents. This is not so. Let's listen to a clip of Representative Eric Swalwell pressing him on the issue.

It's a simple question. Did you tell the attorney general that the president's name is in the Epstein files?

During many conversations that the attorney general and I have had on the matter of Epstein, we have reviewed-The question is simple. Who can- Did you tell the attorney general that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files?

Yes or no? Why don't you try spelling it out? Yes or no, director. Use the alphabet. Yes or no? No. A, B, C, D, E, F. It sounds like you don't want to tell us. Did you tell the attorney general that Donald Trump's name was in the Epstein files? Why don't you try serving your constituency by focusing on reducing violent crime in this country and the number of pedophiles that are legally in your sanctuary cities in California.

Oh, my God. He's such an idiot. He's such an idiot. It's just, answer the question. I mean, things swathled. Of course, a lot of this is theater, but God, he's stupid. That's what I came out from it.

Yeah, it's just bad for the American brand. When you see that uncivil back and forth. I mean, a little bit of it is these hearings have become not really doing their job. They're more or less just to... I mean...

It was okay with RFK. I think that was actually helpful to see in that regard.

Yeah, I think so. This is just... I saw the whole thing and I thought, Here's another instant where people just feel bad about America because Director Patel is being incredibly disrespectful of people who are elected by their constituents. They are meant to provide oversight. I mean, they're his boss. They provide oversight for these agencies on behalf of the American people. When he gets back in their face like that, he's playing to an audience of one. I just found the whole thing really discouraging. The good news is, what's the name of the, I forget, the suspected murderer? What's his name? His family, Tyler. Tyler Robinson. The good news is my understanding is the Robinson family has cleared a bunch of other crimes. That's a joke.

He turned them in. Yeah, that's a good joke.

They did the work of the FBI, and they're supposedly clearing a bunch of other crimes.

100%. Cash Patel is destroying the agency, and I'm certain- I think the agency is stronger than that.

I think it looks good.

Let's hope. But he's just so dumb. So dumb. I don't even care about his stupid back and forth. He's not even good at that. Like, literally, he's not good at any of it. And so, whatever. He's just an incompetent. He won't be fired, just so you know. Neither will Christie know him, incompetent. Neither will RFK, incompetent and dangerous. Neither will.

But while we're all distracted and angry looking at this, The important shit is no one's noticing. You realize Putin flew attack drones now into Romania.

Yes, exactly.

I mean, it's just so funny. Trump's out there saying that Putin would have never attacked Ukraine. By the way, Putin is basically Basically sending an attack aircraft into NATO countries now, and we're listening to Kesh Patel make us look like assholes. Instead of immediately, Trump should be unified with Starmer. He shouldn't be at the Windsor Castle, in my view, getting a rub and tug from the Royal family. He should be with Starmer. He should be with Macron. He should be with Holtz. They should be essentially meeting very visibly, quietly not saying anything. Then slowly but surely, within the 7: 40 next 7, 14, 20 days, we should be jamming all sorts of military aircraft and material and hitting back very hard. Because basically, Putin now has said, Oh, they're so distracted and they're so weak, and this guy loves me so much. I can pretty much do whatever I want. We're sitting here talking about- Same thing with Netanyahu. What a fucking idiot. Patelism. You're right, and it's interesting. But meanwhile, Europe, meanwhile, Putin is following attack drones over NATO.

Yeah. I think people are distracted, and they aren't actually paying attention Because as you noted, the stock market is up largely on the cut, the fade, which was expected. The cut was expected. But one of the things that was interesting was NVIDIA investing $5 billion in Intel. Even Joe Carner didn't like this. The stake was worth about 4% of the company. As part of the deal, NVIDIA and Intel would collaborate on developing chips for personal computers and data centers. Intel stock jumped over 25%, not a surprise in pre-market trading. By the way, NVIDIA needs to focus on this because China's Internet watchdog has instructed companies to terminate orders for NVIDIA chips, which is one of its bigger clients. What do you think about this? I mean, Joe Kerner was even like, this feels like industrial policy or that he's trying to please Trump or create this national chip. Part of me is like, we do need to have stronger chip companies in this country at the same time. I don't know. It feels very industrial policy Soviet Union. I'd love to know what you think of this.

Well, I think this is the thing that Which if we had a DOJ and an FTC that hadn't been weaponized, and a lot of people would argue there's still good people working there. The thing I don't like about it is I don't like an environment as important as chips. I don't like the idea of these guys coordinating. Now, at the same time, you could argue Intel is a shadow of itself that needs to be bailed out. The government has gone in, bought a stake. Now, NVIDIA has bought a stake. But the problem with your competitor buying a 5% stake is, say some engineer from Intel pops up and says, You know what? I think I can build the equivalent of a GPU hopper chip from NVIDIA for 20% less. We just need a billion dollars. They say, Yeah, but one of our owners is NVIDIA. You want the full-body contact violence of capitalism. You want crazy out-of-control competition. When these companies start buying... I mean, people could probably fairly look back on Microsoft buying a steak in Apple.

Yeah, that's a very good comparative. Different political environment, right?

But this is the thing where I want really thoughtful economists and lawyers reviewing it and saying, Is this likely going to reduce competition across the most important high-margin products we produce in America right now, which is these chips? The honest answer is I don't know, but I think it at least warrants a pretty thoughtful review.

And will it get that?

If you speak to Jonathan Cantor, he says there's still really good people at the FTC and the DOJ. But in this environment, it just feels like anything that sends stocks up the Trump administration likes and is going to squelch.

I'm just trying to find the deal for Trump in here. Everything he does with any chips deal, there seems to be a Trump family member there ahead of the deal to get her vague. I don't even know. I would love to know. I would love some reporters to explain what happened here how it happened. But it seems like NVIDIA is just jumping at whatever Trump says. I think Jensen Mung was at that really weird-looking dinner in Britain with the King and Queen. That was one weird dinner.

Yeah. The more significant news with NVIDIA is basically China has announced their striking back, and they're saying, Okay, we're not going to buy any soy beans. So all you farmers who love Trump, you want to trade war? Fine. We'll go after your and lungs and that as farmers. And two, they basically said, We're no longer going to buy NVIDIA chips. They've even told companies to stop the integration of NVIDIA chips because they've come up with their own.

Makes sense for China.

That makes sense for China. So these guys are basically everything that was supposed to happen, whether it was bringing back manufacturing, a combination of raiding Hyundai plants and putting a chill across any investment from South Korea.

We're weird. These people are incompetent. Stop with the indignant. They're incompetent. Or Organize and vote them out. Even if they're going to try to steal the election, don't let them. I don't want to really sit around and bemoan the situation.

I'm with you, sister.

We can't bemoan. No bemoaning. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back. New details about Trump's TikTok deal.

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Hey, pivot listeners. I want to tell you about a new podcast from the Vox Media Podcast Network called Access with Alex Heath and Ellis Hamburger. It's a show about the inside conversation happening across the tech industry. You may know Alex Heath from shows like Decoder and The VergeCast. He's the founder of Sources, a new publication about the tech industry and a contributing writer for The Verge. You'll probably only know Ellis if you worked in Silicon Valley yourself. He's a former tech reporter turned tech industry insider working closely with today's hottest startups. Their first episode features an interview with Mark Zuckerberg about Metta's latest smart glasses, the AI Race, and what's next for the social media giant. You can find the Access podcast with Alex Heath and Ellis Hamburger on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Hey, Alex Heath here, founder of sources. News and a contributor at The Verge. I'm Ellis Hamburger, tech reporter turned industry insider, working closely with today's hottest AI startups. We're excited to announce the launch of our new show, Access, with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Access is the tech industry's inside conversation with Silicon Valley's most influential leaders, from the tech Titans of today to tomorrow's most visionary builders.

It's a show made by insiders for everyone who wants a glimpse into the future. In our first episode, Alex interviewed Mark Zuckerberg about Metta's latest smart glasses, the AI Race, and what's next for the social media giant. I mean, didn't you just tell Trump you were going to spend like, 600 billion I did.

Yeah, through 2028, which is- That's a lot of money. It is. If we end up misspending a couple of hundred billion dollars, I think that that is going to be very unfortunate, obviously. But what I'd say is I actually think the risk is higher on the other side. You can find the Access pod now on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Scott, we're back. I know this will shock you, but Donald Trump has extended the TikTok deadline again. I don't even know if it's illegal this time until December the 16th. It's the fourth extension so far for those keeping score at home. We're also learning more about the deal. If it goes through, ByteDance would spin off US operations into a new company owned by an investor consortium, Oracle, Silver Lake, and Driesen Horowitz are among the investors who expect to own about 80% of the company. What a shock. All Trump-supporting people. The company would have a majority US board, including a member appointed by the Trump administration. That gave me pause. And Trump just said that his news conference with the UK Prime Minister, Gerresheimer, that the US is getting a tremendous fee, plus for just his VIG for just making the deal. It's basically another payoff. It's going to go in the hands. There's all this question of What's really happening to the algorithm? I suspect the Chinese will only go along if they're allowed to keep their algorithm. And if it's in this system, that's a problem. If it's not, that's a problem for the product.

So I don't know. I feel TikTok will go. I think Instagram and others will bypass it rather quickly, given all the storm and drung around this. Any thoughts?

Yeah. The news today is just a shit salad with shavings of shit on it. So This is effectively the whole point of passing a law assigned by the President Biden, passed by both houses of Congress, was that TikTok prevents a defense threat. We have two-thirds of our nation's youth spends time on TikTok every day, the average of an hour and a half. Tiktok has more influence over our future business nonprofit, civic and military leaders than MBC, ABC, and CBS did during their height in the '60s. As a result, people my age, or one of the impacts is people my age, 50% of us feel good about America. It's one in 10 Gen Z. I think there's no doubt about it. It's the connection to the rage machine, but also, I think in addition to the rage equals profitability, ByteDance has a vested interest with coordination with the CCP of dividing us internally. That was a threat. All of the government, all branches of government decided, This is bad, let's ban it. Then the President decided, No, I'm not going to ban it. I'm not going to enforce it. I think I can do a great deal here.

First off, this is such cronyism. I'm hoping that you and I can play a role in getting the next president elected, and then I'm going to ask him to give me the US license to LVMH because I'm really into Ramona luggage. But that's exactly what this is. I am going to use the power of the presidency to force a great company in terms of economics and upside to be sold to my donors. That's not how you do shit. That's literally we're in Russia, where Putin carved up all of the commodities and companies and said, Okay, you're a billionaire who's friendly to my interests, and you're going to transfer money to my Swiss banking account. I'm going to give you the biggest nickel mine in our Kutsk, and you can go buy Premier League football teams and have yachts in the south of France. That's exactly what this is. You don't carve up companies and give them to your political allies. Then it's also not as a cronist.

And ignore Congress. Let's say you're also ignoring law.

It's also croniest. That's the croniest part. It's also socialist. Also, someone from the government is going to be on the board here. We're going to put Peter Navarro on the board of ByteDance? I mean, That is socialism. That is when the government thinks they're smarter than private enterprise and tries to get involved in the means of production. That is a bad idea. In addition, the whole thing that started this was the defense threat of having the world's most elegant propaganda machine in the world implant a neural jack into the wet matter of America's youth. That was the whole point. And guess what? The one component of this in the deal is that we are going to license the algorithm, but they are still going to control it. So this is all the bad taste of cronyism and socialism with all of the calories of a lack of doing anything about the true defense threat here. And he doesn't understand. He doesn't care. The silver lining here is I don't think it's going to happen. I think she is like, Okay, pretend this guy is the physical embodiment of a cat on meth who can't stay focused on anything, waste a bunch of time, go through this deal.

We have till December, and then we'll put it off again. This guy has shown Trump is not... Trump keeps blinking, blinking, blinking, blinking. But the deal, just to talk a little bit about the deal, the new entity would be created to control the new and separate American version of TikTok. The US company's Oracle Silver, like Andreessen Horowitz, all Republicans and other existing buy-down shareholders would hold a roughly 80% stake.

Also, creepy old guys. Sorry, all three, Trump, Allison, whatever. They really know they have their finger on the pulse of the young people. But go ahead.

Then the new company would have a majority American board with one member designated from the US government directly. Okay, thank you, Socialism. But again, the key, the only thing that matters here, in addition to carving up an amazing company and giving it to your Republican allies, is that it's very unclear who is still going to control the algorithm, or mostly clear that the CCP is still going to have input into this algorithm.

Shit sandwich, like you said.

Larry Allison, if this deal goes through, which I don't think it will, it's only going to get richer Because the most overvalued companies in the world right now are Tesla and probably Palantir trading at 40 to 60 times revenues. Bytedance, which economically has operating margins of literally 30%, it's an unbelievable company growing really fast, is trading at two times revenues because of the overhang of geopolitical concerns. So these guys are about to, if they, in fact, do take control of it, are going to make tens of billions of dollars.

Yeah, which is why they're here. They're like pigs at the trough. They're pigs at the trough.

Do you really want Ellison controlling CBS, CNN, Paramount, and TikTok? So this is I'm more upset about this economically. I don't support Mundani because I'm a big fan of capitalism. I'm a big fan of full body contact capitalism that creates violence, blood, and competition and amazing products at a low price that creates shareholder value and profits, the likes of which no one has ever seen. Then the government gets their VIG in the form of taxation, not moving in and trying to pretend cosplay investment banker.

But did you see who he just met with I'm not going to go after him because you've got Cuomo saying all manner of nonsensical things. Eric Adams is a corrupt- I'm not going after him.

I'm saying I think his socialist ideas are bad. I am not for socialism when it comes from a Democrat or the President. Who did he meet with?

What does it look like he's doing? He's attacking and listening to business people. He just met with Bloomberg.

He's moderating. He's a smart candidate. He's modulating.

Yes, but not modulating. He's meeting with Bloomberg. That, to me, says a lot about that he's willing to at least understand he's going to be the mayor of New York and not just Mamdani.

Agree, and he's also toned down his comments. He's now said that he realizes things like globalize the intifad are insensitive, and he will no longer support those statements. He's a fantastic candidate. My point is the following. I don't like socialism when it comes the left or the right. You want to talk about an embrace of socialism, having a golden share in US steel where the government basically gets to decide?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. The only person who's being a socialist here, Mamdani has never done anything. He's just talked about bringing vegetables to poor people. That's pretty much where he's- You mean government-sponsored food lines?

Stores operated by the government?

He was talking about in neighborhoods that are problematic. It's like four of them.

Or rent control, such that we have no new development of housing in New York.

There's got to be some.

I love that one in It's an argument over the mayor's race.

No, I'm just saying... All I'm saying is he's done nothing. Trump has proven himself to be a socialist.

I agree he's done nothing. That's his qualifications for mayor. He's done nothing.

Oh, come on.

He's a fucking city councilman. Good for him.

And long line of people who've done nothing, who are like, Hello, Cash Patel. Hello.

Come on. I'm not. I'm with you. It's a long fucking line. I don't think Mamdami should run the FBI either.

He'd be better at it than Cash Patel. That's for sure. You'd be better at it than Cash. I wouldn't want you to have any subpoena power. In any case, we We need to move on.

Oh, my God. You know what I have? I have subpenis power. After Lily D.

Why did I say the word? Oh, my God. Why did I even say the word? Oh, my God.

I can't say...

If I said the word peonies, you'd make a joke, wouldn't you?

I'm literally, I'm looking at this parking lot. Should I take a picture shot of this?

No, you shouldn't.

It's amazing. It's so much fun.

All right. We're going to take one more. Let's talk more about Jean Smart. Let's talk about Dami, who's done nothing, versus Trump, who's literally a Communist at this point. Anyway.

My point is, I I'm an equal opportunity hater of socialism. Yes, he's done. He hasn't been. I love capitalism. Bring it on. Let's compete. American companies are the strongest companies in the world.

We know what these people are doing. Let them compete. They're corrupt. They're cronies. They break First Amendment rules. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm just saying these people are actively shitty, and we'll wait for Mondani to be actively shitty.

Mondani is like, shitty and waiting?

He's not. I don't know. What if he's great? You're going to eat your words. All right, Scott, one more Our quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction.

Well, I got to be honest, Cara. I don't think I'm thinking very straight. I was asked to do a prediction on Profit Shea, and I'm like, I'm just out of sorts right now. And so I don't feel I'm thinking clearly, the only prediction I could muster is the following. You have with NVIDIA saying they'll take a 5% stake in Intel, that's like the sweat off their brow. It's just not a big deal. It's like these companies now representing 40% of the S&P, I don't know, 20 trillion in value. What you do when you're... I like to point this out a lot. I've been a lot of corporate boards. When you feel like your stock is inflated in a bit, we call it fully valued, which means our If your stock is overvalued for some reason, what you do is you go shopping. Because what you want to do is find companies that are undervalued because then the acquisition is accretive. When you have a lot of money, when you're trading at 80 times earnings, if you buy a company that's trading at 20 times earnings, it's accretive right away. It's like, Okay, we have a lot of money on our credit cards that may not be there in 3, 6 or 12 months.

Let's go shopping. I think Intel, I was thinking about NVIDIA and Intel, and also a total absence of any a scrutiny or DOJ or antitrust concern. It all adds up to me to, I think the next two quarters are going to be historically good or the best in 10 or 20 years for M&A, because I think everyone is going to say, Well, we would have never even contemplated buying a company like this because the FTC or the DOJ would get in the way. Warner Brothers stock, get this, Cara, it was up 55% last week because the father of a rich kid increased his wealth by 90 billion in one day at the hands of AI. You have so much money, such inflated earnings of companies who could make so many acquisitions that would be accretive that I would bet Goldman and J. P. Morgan are in the offices of the Magnificent Ten saying, Here's a list of 30 companies.

Let's go. That's a great prediction, Scott. That is a great prediction.

But a company that they would have never been able to acquire or never been able to afford to acquire that's 10, 20 or 30 billion, these guys- Give me one.

Give me one. You were blank. Comcast.

Well, the thing is about Comcast, though, it's controlled by the Roberts family, but that's a really interesting idea. You could see... I don't know. Who are the biggest media companies that are still independent and out there?

Warner. He should try to grab it from my own.

You mentioned one. You mentioned, absolutely, you mentioned one. You mentioned Disney. Disney, at this point, is flailing, and Bob Iger might just throw up his arms and say...

Bob out of his misery because I'm sure he's very agonized about this, Bob. I'm sure.

Okay. I think the I think the market cap of Disney is $120 billion or something. You'd have to pay a premium, call it $150. That's like a 5% dilution for some of these companies. Apple. That is the right amount. If Apple bought I'm not sure Tim wants those headaches, but just to give you an example, if Apple bought Disney, it would be a 5% bet. Even if it didn't work and the thing ended up being 1%, it's not a career-ending injury.

It would be a great acquisition for them at this point. It's not that hard. They do a very good job at Apple TV with a lot of good shows. They need more scale and that this huge amount of IP. You've been saying that for a while.

But Apple has been smart about that probably- He's got to do something spectacular.

They like to build internally their own culture. I know, but he can't build that. Look, they've got a lot of hair on that because are they in AI? Are they enough? Their phone sucks. They need something pretty. And the President will let it happen since Tim was also at that dinner, sucking up the Trump.

You've been bad. Every investment bank, these investment makers with these key relations has been there and like, Here's 20 companies we would have never suggested that you could buy. And they're going to go, Yeah, why not? It's almost free for them at this point. These companies are trading. You don't think Palantier is looking at every analytics. I mean, Palantier is like, Okay, we have a $600 billion market cap at a $10 billion. Jesus Christ.

How about they buy Disney and lop off ABC and let, I don't know, fucking Sinclair have it and do their shitty programming that no anyone under 65 isn't watching? By the way, Sinclair, all your audience is dying. So good luck with that. All these companies that have broadcast or just lop off ABC, just say, just let it go.

I was so depressed. I was literally hanging out last night. All I did was eat cash. I was on a plane. Yesterday, I heard about the news about Jimmy Kimmel, and I thought, You know what? I'm just going to turn on Spotify, type in '80s. And I got back to the hotel in Nashville. I took a 10 milligram gummy, and I just slept for nine hours. Well, good. And I woke up.

And now you're staring at construction.

I woke up at 3: 00 AM, went and worked out, and I've been watching this parking lot being torn down.

As Kimmel says, it's one of the stages of grief, demolition. Construction, demolition. Anyway, all right.

Let's bring Jimmy Kimmel on. Jimmy, if you're out there, we like you. We like you.

He'll get lots of requests. I have interviewed him. I'm going to repost my interview with him.

You always have to one up me.

I'm just telling you, I've already been there. I've been everywhere. You know where you go? Like, Killroy was here, Carol was here. All right, we want to hear from you. That's an old reference. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to N-M-M-M.

But Kaitlyn Collins wants to interview me. She told me that off mic.

She does. Go on Kaitlyn Collins's show. I can't get another text from their people. You need to go on Kaitlyn. As a personal favorite of me. Will you go on Kaitlyn Collins's show?

Let's be honest, it's not about the brain. It's about the broad shoulders and the good looks. No. The Bruce Dern-like sexiness that she wants on her program. She needs to get a rating set.

Just go on her show. She does a great job. I have to say. She does a great job. I like her a lot. She does a great job, and she deserves your attention. You could make other friends besides Anderson Cooper. I'm just telling you. I love AC.

If he When it gets fired, I'm going on strike.

Okay, you do that. I told him. I said, be careful, Anderson. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymak. Com/pivot to submit a question for the show. Or call 855-515-pivot. We're in the Cara and Scott universe this week. As I mentioned, just sat down with Pete Budajes for an upcoming episode of On with Cara Swischer. I asked him a very important question about his future. Let's listen. Are you going to run for President again in 2028? Oh, I Please don't be cool. Come on. I don't know. Really?

It's 2025.

That's not very long. Have you lived through the last nine months? That's long. That's true. I got to tell you, that was better than the Gavin answer. That said, he said I could sleep in the Lincoln bedroom, so we know where he is on that. It's my greatest goal. Will you let me sleep in the Lincoln bedroom? Sure. Okay, there we go. Anyway, it's really fun. Actually, he's loosened up considerably, which is great because he's very charming.

That was a real zinger. Are you running for Brosnan? He is running for Brosnan. Why do you think he's coming on with Kara Swesher?

Why do you think he's doing this shit? Well, I have to ask that. Well, I understand that, but you still have to ask it. Anyway, Kamala Harris wanted to pick him for vice president and didn't have the balls to do so, so to speak.

Well, it's good to know that now.

Yeah.

It's good to know that. That helps. That's good. The rumor I'd always heard was that it was Governor Shapiro. No. Then over the weekend, the Black Caucus went fucking crazy. No. She picked walls. No. Mayor Pete.

That's what she wanted, Mayor Pete. She just didn't think they could take a Black lady and a gay man, I guess. That was her calculation there.

Wow.

Yeah. I think she would have won with Mayor Pete or would have angry.

I don't think it would have made a difference. I love Mayor Pete, and I'm going to be... There's like one of 12 candidates all supporting and money to and see how the process plays out. I think Mayor Pete is an inspiration. How was the interview? Any interesting things from him?

Yeah. I asked him about him being a fake gay and about Tucker Carlson accused him of being not a real gay.

He's not a real gay?

Apparently. He has a lot, actually. He's sporting a beard now, so he's looking- He's not a real gay?

Well, I'll say this. He gives a great head for someone who's not actually gay. Oh, that's wrong. Is that wrong?

That's wrong. I'm jet lagged.

I'm jet lagged. Wait, who cancels me for that? Yeah, I think he's fantastic. I really hope that he served his country, super smart. Yes, I think His path to the presidency or his messaging, I don't know if he talked about this, but something that's really powerful that I had as a client on my pod that he pointed out that I thought was really powerful is that he can speak in a very authentic way. It was very moving when he talked about it, about he grew up believing that he wasn't going to have the opportunity to have his own family.

Yeah, he did.

The fact that he does have this really what appears to be a wonderful, beautiful family family because of our embrace of civil rights and the right to pursue happiness. He can speak to that powerfully in a way that I think will resonate with a lot of moderates and a lot of Republicans.

We talked about parenting. We talked about that issue. Of course, you never asked me if I ever thought that as a kid because I'm older than him, too. I'm much older than him.

Well, that's fair. I just think it's much more important for men to have families.

You guys have cats. You guys have cats. You've still not asked me. Here it is an opening. How are you, Scott? No, how are you? No, no, no, no, no, Pete and I did talk about this. I wanted to have a family from the get-go. But very early, as I told, I bought a onesie when I was 18 because I wanted to have kids. I was going to have kids. I didn't think I couldn't. I was like, Fuck you, I'm going to have kids. I'm going to have a family. I think we had a different approach to it. I was more aggressive and angry about it, and Pete was more sad about it, which is the same difference.

Because you have... How old is Louis?

23.

You're smiling, which means you had him when you were 60? No. That's good.

39.

He was 39.

39. When I had a uterus, back when I had a uterus, yeah.

Yeah, I had my first at 42.

Yeah.

I think it's good having kids when you're a little bit older.

I do. Yeah, me too. Except when they keep getting sick as the young ones are, they keep trading the same illness back and forth.

No, you've locked and loaded again. I actually... If I was a little bit younger, I would do that.

You can borrow my kids for the weekend and I take Amanda away. That would be great.

You've just said this. It's the gays that are the only ones keeping... Gays and immigrants are the only ones keeping our population growth at a steady level, right?

That's correct. And Elon Musk.

And Elon Musk. Yeah. And by the way, you know all these guys? I think I want to be... I'll tell you what, if I have any pull, you can be ambassador Australia. I want to be ambassador Spain.

Oh, okay. If that's all right. I'm sure I'll give that to you. We'll give him some money. All right, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week.

Ambassador of the Mexico.. No, no, no. Oh my God. Hola muchachas.

Scott, ambassador to Lichtenstein. You can have Lichtenstein.

Don't they sell a danceteria?

Okay, read us out.

Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zeli Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kate Gallagher. Ernie and her Todd entered in this episode. Jim Mac will edit the video. Thanks also to Drew Burros, Miel Saverio, and Dan Chalan. Great data, by the way. Nishad Krua is VoxMedia's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York magazine and VoxMedia. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag. Com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. I'm in Tennessee, Cara. I'm in Tennessee watching parking lots being destroyed.