Transcript of Trump's Venezuela Oil Gambit, ICE Shooting Fallout, and Warner Bros. Says No (Again)

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What I mean is if a client came to you and said, I want to buy Greenland, what would be the thing as an investment bank for you I want to.

I want to buy Greenland? Are you out of your fucking mind?

Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott Galloway continues to be under the weather. I brought in two more amazing co-hosts. We've got Audi Cornish, host of CNN This Morning, and the podcast The Assignment, and Bill Cohen, one of my favorite people to talk about business because there's a lot going on there, author and founding partner of Puck. Welcome, Audi and Bill.

Hey. Hey, great to be here. I had nothing to do with Scott's disappearance. It's not that I haven't wanted to be on the show a lot. I've been waiting with this quarter zip just so that I could be a part of the dialog. A quarter zip. I did. I was like, Are we talking business? I'm sure Scott's fine. I didn't do anything to him at all. No.

Okay. All right. You were trying. Yes, that would be a really good show. Yeah. Otnie trying to take down the co-host.

Like an anti-character situation.

Is that too soon? Do you have your A quarter zip on, Bill?

I do, but I don't have a Warner Brothers Discovery quarter zip, which I really like.

I wore that just for you.

I really like that.

I got this from David Zesla. Himself?

I technically did as well.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he gives them out. I'm going to say this, honestly. I told him he dressed like a lesbian, and he sent me this.

Only lesbians can say that. I opt out. I unsubscribe. Unsubscribed.

But yes, it's actually a fantastic vest. You look great in it. Thank you. It's really comfortable, and I wear it all the time. My son this morning said, Oh, that's the Scooby-Doo people. That is of all the things. Of all the things.

That's such a rest.

For now, anyway. We're going to talk about. It's so random. It's so random. Yes, exactly. We're going to talk about that, and I really enjoy your stuff, Bill. But anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, so we're going to dig in. There's a lot of news. The first one, obviously, is the fatal shooting of a 37-year-old woman in her car by an ICE agent in Minneapolis, sparking national outrage and protests. Again, the woman, Renee Nicole Good, was a US citizen, a mother of three, and a poet. She was not under any investigation, according to law enforcement officials. Homeland Security Secretary, Christie Noem, said Good was stalking officers in attempting an act of domestic terrorism. What a heinous person she is. Minneapolis mayor Jacob Fry called that bullshit and told ICE to, Get the fuck out of Minneapolis. President Trump weighed in on true social and once again blamed the radical left. He did an interview just where the reporters from the United States showed it to him. He walked it back, but he didn't precisely. Of course, they're doubling down. Tom Homan, for a second, was reasonable, and he got the memo that they're supposed to call this woman a radical terrorist.

I want to get both your takes here, but first, let me share Scott Galloway's thoughts on this, which he texted me last night. I'm horrified. History shows politics becomes a blood sport, a nation's light begins to flicker. A dem, Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro should announce candidacy this week and say, If elected, we are going to have the equivalent of the Nuremberg trials. There needs to be a reckoning to start the stain of corruption, insurrection, and bigotry. Dems are such fucking wimps. That was from Scott. The words of Scott Galloway, ladies and gentlemen, from his sickbed. Audi, I'll start with you. What do you make of what we're seeing? You reported on it all morning on your show on CNN, on your morning show. So talk a little bit about, and you've covered this stuff many times.

I have. I mean, talk about grim. I think this woman had dropped her kid off at school, a six-year-old. And so many people right now, wherever they fall on the political spectrum, feel a helplessness. Wait a second. Am I really where I thought the country would be? And so if you're one of those people and you decide, Well, I'm going to go out somewhere. I'm going to do something. I'm going to be present. To protest. Yeah, protest. I'm not saying she definitely was protesting, but just the idea that you are in mortal danger now in these scenarios, I think, is pretty terrifying. Also, the setting, it being Minneapolis, it being this many years after the death of George Floyd, it being in a place where protests went for a very long time, and in fact, other protesters were killed, it can it can spin out into something else. Then lastly, the fact that this whole operation, almost 90%, I think 87% of the Somalians in the state are naturalized citizens. They are legal. Now you are really trying to find one, and two, and three people, and you have a city that is prepared. You'll look on your TVs in the next day or two and see some protesters wearing their gas masks already because they have seen this movie before, a militarized response from law enforcement.

So can I ask you one other question? The response from the Trump administration immediately was trying to spin it. Of course, Christie Noem put on whatever hat she had that day and started to spew lies. Then the videos, all of them, were very much different, including Fox News commentators commenting on, Well, she was turning away from the ICE person. She was trying to hit him. She's obviously dropped her kid off from school.

There's very little known. I mean, look, if there's one thing we know how to do as Americans is scrutinize a video of a law enforcement-involved killing. I think we had a fair amount of practice at that. We have not had practice doing that with a white mother. I know of a couple of kids, and I think this has looked very shocking for people and familiar in ways that feel very dark. The administration's whole stance on this entire process has been always double down, always triple down, never give any ground because they feel they have not just some moral authority. They'll evoke this mandate. You hear over and over on these cable news panels, this is what people voted for. I'll just wrap up by saying we don't matter what the TV news says or commentators. People have eyes and they have social media. I have watched all of these ICE enforcements and arrests and protests on social media, where people offer their own commentary. I think that is having way more impact than the administration would like to think. They want to think it's a Democratic governor somewhere saying something that's rhetoric that make people say F ICE.

Check the hashtag. It's not run Certainly by any democratic messaging operation. Right.

Phil, I want to bring you to this. One of the things that I'm watching, though, is a lot of suddenly business people, well-known people, the guy who runs Jeopardy spoke up. I just was noticing Paul Graham, who I think you know, he was the head of Y Combinator, wrote, ICE just shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis, a US citizen. How long before we say enough is enough? Elon Musk responded, she tried to run people over, and Paul wrote back, and Paul, I wouldn't call him a liberal, but in fact, he's somewhat irritating on many levels. No, she didn't. Here's the evidence. She's turning the front wheels of the car to the right away from the ICE officer on her left. She was trying to run him over. Why would she turn in the other direction? Do you think, Well, because a lot of the... You haven't heard word one from any tech people on any of this or any business people on this stuff.

Yeah, I think we may be reaching a tipping point on that, to use a phrase that a lot of business people can understand. I think this is obviously the inevitable outcome of the wider Steven Miller agenda, which is heinous in almost every respect. You'll have to remember that Steven Miller's grandparents were immigrants. If his policies were in place for them, maybe they never would have come to this country. He wouldn't even be here, which might be a better thing. I don't know.

Rocking Stephen Miller will be a decades long thing for future historians.

Absolutely. I mean, this guy is completely out of control. Witness the interview he gave to Jake Tapper the other day, which was, happened to be about Venezuela But the same arrogance and hubris applies here. I mean, these situations are powder kegs, bringing in highly militarized ICE officers into neighborhoods and rounding up people who should never be rounded up. It seems so un-American to me. I don't think this is what we voted for at all.

But why have businesses remained largely silent?

Because they didn't.

It doesn't affect during George Floyd?

Well, first of all, that seems like a lifetime ago, the reaction to George Floyd. People have, whatever, gotten with the program. I remember having a dinner a few months ago with the CEO of a tech company, Cara, who you probably know well, who I asked this exact thing, why are you not speaking up more profoundly about what's going on here? No, because it doesn't affect my business. What affects my business is my shareholders, my creditors, my employees. This doesn't affect what Donald Trump is doing, what the regime is doing, doesn't affect me. It's not my business. I'm going to stay out of it, even though it's totally reprehensible and that these people should be speaking up. Why have FU money if you're not going to speak up and use it?

Fu, yeah. Absolutely. It'll be interesting. Last thing, where do you imagine this going now with these videos? Will they continue to double down? What is the Because, of course, it takes away from their Venezuela capers, which we'll get to in a second. It takes away from their Greenland capers.

I'll be honest, it depends on what happens next. I mean, you'll notice my eyes are going like this every few minutes is because right now there is this images of what looks like a standoff between protesters who are linking arms. Then you have, if this is the state of the country we're in right now, I'm like, Are these National Guard? Are these police? Are these ICE police? Who am I even looking at? Is this even how you do crowd control? Is this how you enforce things? I just want to add one more thing here. The ramp up that we are witnessing of this law enforcement agency that is not structured the way the others are It's unaccountable. It's unaccountable in such profound ways. I think that I will be very curious if people feel like they voted for that, because when I hear the Manosphere and the podcast Bros be I don't know, man. I don't know if you should be. I can't believe they're doing this. I can't believe they're doing that. To me, that's now reached the stage where the average person does not perceive this as just a mass deportation of criminals.

I do think that horse has left the barn. It's now, do they think that what's being grown in their name, that they, as voters, should step in and somehow try and stop it or make their displeasure known?

Which they are, have been doing. I mean, Gestapo wasn't what we voted for, I guess. Yeah.

Can I I just add one thing? I just think we're living through an era of unaccountability. There's no accountability for ICE. There's no accountability for Venezuela. There's no accountability for ripping down the east wing of the White House. There's no accountability for re-describing what happened on January sixth on the White House website. Every day, there's an example of bad behavior that would normally be unacceptable. In my lifetime, it would be completely unacceptable for our politicians to act this way, and yet they do it with impunity, and there's never any accountability.

But there is a lever, just no one's pulling it. I mean, I hear Scott talk like this all the time, but the business community seems to have walked away from the awokening, and a bunch of them went, That really went too far, don't you think? And so they don't give a shit. Honestly, I genuinely feel like They are going on yachts and building up fortresses for themselves, and they no longer feel actually engaged with the country in a lot of ways. I don't say this as some raving liberal. I'm just like, They are absent. They don't yank funding from things. They don't yet advertising from things. They go to every dinner they have at the White House. I don't know what the business community does now.

I think they do give a shit. I think that they prefer not to be the nail that sticks up that gets this madman's attention, and then puts them in the crosshairs, and they have to deal with some analogous event that they didn't want to have to deal with because they spoke up. I think they do care.

But- Renee Good took a risk. Billionaires won't, and I'm confused.

All right. Well, that's a good point.

That's why I say, if you've got a few money, why don't you use it?

I have to say I'm with the audience on this one. It's like they could. This is not hard. None of this is particularly hard, and it doesn't affect your The terms are coming up.

You can throw around all your free amendment money, first amendment money then. Will they? I'm not holding my breath.

Well, all right. Now to the latest with Venezuela. Here are some of the highlights of the story since our last episode. President Trump will meet with oil industry executives on Friday at the White House after saying the US may subsidize the company's efforts to rebuild in Venezuela. In other words, the taxpayer will pay for it, which he estimated would take 18 months. Probably just made that up. On Wednesday, President Trump said US control of Venezuela could last for years. The President has withdrawn the US from 66 international organizations and treaties, including climate groups. The US sees two oil tankers, including a Russian flagged vessel, linked to Venezuela in the North Atlantic. The National Security Security leaders have said the administration does not plan to use ground troops in Venezuela. Of course, in related news, the US is actively discussing a potential offer to buy Greenland and hasn't rolled out military action. I mean, they're not just murdering US citizens. They're very busy on other things. Bill, start. How do you suspect these oil executives be responding in this meeting? Because it's a dicey situation for them no matter what, and the price of oil, of course, is not as high as they'd like it to be.

How do you respond to this rampant imperialism? If you are a CEO of an oil company that might or might not benefit from this imperialism, I think that the economics of the situation do not necessarily lend itself to these companies wanting to go in there. It's going to take billions of dollars to, apparently, fix up the refineries.

Which they also had lost previously, right? They had lost whatever.

In the previous- They had lost whatever. That's sunk money, different companies, whatever. Okay, so you give them a heads up early that you're doing this because he loves to court their favor. But I don't think this is going to be nearly as smooth and as easy. It never is, first of all. Look what happened in Iraq. That was supposed to be over in 10 days, right?

And good for oil companies. Similar words. Right.

Similar words. Didn't work out that way. I don't see this working out that way either. But besides, Cara, we are net exporters of oil now. Why do we need more oil from Venezuela. I mean, this is just this crazy hubristic, ugly American behavior that I thought we would have learned from over the decades of doing similar things, especially in Latin America. Obviously, if you're the CEO of one of these oil companies, you get invited to the White House by a madman, you go and you listen to what he has to say. But I think as an economic matter, it's going to take a long time before they raise their hands and say, Oh, yes, me too. I want to get in here and extract this oil.

Even if they get a freebie from taxpayers, if he's able to do that at all, which is- Yeah, we don't know the mechanisms about how this will work.

Also, Bill, I was wondering, in the era of this Trump administration, transactional foreign policy and transactional business policy. Everything's a transaction. Yeah. So you can't do a no-strings-attached situation with the Trump administration, even as an oil company, I would think, right? If they're going to not... Like, even NVIDIA has to give us slice. So why wouldn't you? And are companies starting to be wary about that?

Totally. I mean, he said he's going to seize the oil that has apparently been hours and locked up, apparently, and he's going to sell it on the market and control the proceeds of that sale. I mean, he's got his fingers and all these pies. It's this ultimate grift. The Center for American Progress has got a website now that tracks the grift. It's nearly $2 billion since January, since he was inaugurated. This is another part of the grift. I'm always very concerned about you have these big exogenous events, like going into Venezuela or what happened in Minneapolis. What are they doing? What are they trying to deflect from? Is it the rewriting of January sixth? Is it Jeffrey Epstein? Is it Graft? I mean, taking down the east wing of the White House, the $400 million ballroom. I mean, what crazy thing is he trying to distract us from? It's Wag the Dog, it's Orwellian, We're just, again, there's no accountability for any of this.

So if you're an oil executive going to that meeting, I have talked to two of them, and they're like, This is not good for us, the price of oil. I mean, economically, it's insane on some.

Why are you going to invest billions of dollars trying to extract oil in Venezuela when we're already net exporters of oil? I don't understand that.

In an easier situation.

I mean, the potential there is huge. They're on the reserve. It's just, does this administration have the attention span? Is the country willing to do what it takes to secure a long-term investment? I mean, no one has the appetite for a very long list of things for the reasons you guys everyone has said, which is like the ghost of Iraq and that whole conversation just haunt this foreign policy.

And Chile and so many others. I mean, what if the reverse Our situation were happening. I mean, honestly, what if Venezuela came in, kidnapped Trump and Melania, took them off in Venezuela, and then started saying, Okay, now we own Exxon, Chevron, and all the Koniko and all the other oil companies, and we're just going to extract all the oil because we want to.

Cara, I want to raise something with you and get your point of view, which is that there's a lot of people who would say all the Trump people really do is overt versions of things that the US has always done covertly. So the long list of Latin American regime change and interventions, I'm just going to pick a date and go back to '51 or something. Now, the only difference is they just do it. And instead of us playing this absurd game with Donald Rumsfeld about oil, and whether it's the oil and whether it's not, and then Jim Baker is like, Oh, it's definitely... I mean, just nonsense. Now, we just have people saying the thing.

They're saying it's oil. Yeah.

And is there something to be said for you're addressing everything more directly. Number two, for Democrats, what's their response? What are you going to tell a Venezuelan expat? Like, Well, we really want that dictator to stay because we don't like the way they're doing this.

As many people point out, Maduro is an autocrat and a very tyrannical one, right? I think his own people knived him in the back. That's my take on the whole thing is Delcey, who looks harmless, but is not in any way.

She was head of the intelligence Department at one point, and she was head of the oil. That regime is still there. They're violent, they're repressive, they're turning on each other. If you're a Democrat, you just say, But actually, he needs to come to Congress. Appropriation something, something. When you have all these people in the country saying, We needed the help. Maybe we want to thank Trump for doing this thing.

They do. But it's hardly pointful. He's not the President of Venezuela, so who cares? It's not his job to help them.

I think a lot of Venezuelas in Florida do.

Yes, expats who have left. They're a very different group of people and people. I just did a long podcast with a historian, David Sanger, and some others about this. One of the things that was interesting to me was that there's a real rift between the people who 25% of the population left and the people who are there. There's a whole... Again, not our country, not our problem.

But we saw this with the Cuban community and the Cuban Republican community. Democrats lost that community for decades after, and now the Secretary of State is basically the product of that political lineage.

Right, exactly, which is why they're focusing on Cuba next. But one of the things is, I think, criming in plain sight is what you're asking about. They're criming in plain sight. I do think there are one of the things, the response was in the air, no one's ever done this. I'm like, Hold my beer. Yes, they did. Panama. Yes, they did. Haiti. Yes, we did. Iraq, Iran, Chile. Yes, we did. Except what Donald Trump is doing is not saying, Oh, it's a democracy thing. Oh, it's because of this, or it's because of political prisoners, or it's because... He's just saying, Yeah, it's the oil. Then you have Howard Nutnik, who seems to be in a bathroom, piping up out the minerals. I think actually the Trump administration has made when people point to his grift, they go, Well, he's doing it transparently. So criming in plain sight is better, and it's on a scale that's unprecedented. That's really the more interesting part of it. But it's still stupid. I don't know what else to say. It's stupid, as Bill pointed out, because of the price of oil is going to come down, crashing down, presumably.

Right. I mean, did he really think this through? I mean, the oil executives will go to this meeting, but to get them to invest billions of dollars to refine or get that oil out of the ground and sell it into a market where the price of oil is low, relatively speaking, and we're already net exporters of oil. Why are they going to that? I mean, did he think that through? Yeah.

Where you can't even get a guarantee from the government that they'll secure the workforce that would do this. I mean, there is no day two.

Why are we invading another country, kidnapping their president so we can take their natural resources. Again, if the shoe were on the other foot, I think there might be a little bit of an outrageous.

That's the old if Obama did this. We're way beyond if Obama did this thing. But in related news, speaking of which, speaking of minerals and things we want there and strategically, indeed, important place, Greenland. Now, from what I understand from this panel I did, we can go to Greenland right now and put as many bases on it as we want. We could put 300 bases. We had 17 bases there. We closed 16 of them. We have every right to be in Greenland from a 1950s treaty, so we don't even have to. We don't have to do anything. We can just open all those things and squat. I guess, squat in Greenland. I think that's the way. I think that's the technical term for it. What happens, but it has created this NATO crisis, existential crisis, Especially if he does something with the military rather than just offer to buy it. Thoughts, first Audi, then Bill.

Oh, no. I want to hear Bill first. I'm curious.

Bill. Economically, is it a good deal?

Look, he doesn't care, as he's proven for years, he doesn't care about NATO. So if he's provoking confrontation with NATO in a way to get out of NATO, okay, fine. Or maybe it's bluster. Do we need to buy Greenland. As you said, we can do already or allowed to do it. We want just another example of this crazy, wacky, imperialistic behavior that is so unbecoming. And you would think that we would have learned from our past mistakes in this area, and it makes people hate us and resent us, which is part of the reason we got a 9/11 situation, is that hate and resentment around the world, and he's fomenting it without any accountability. And to what end? I mean, again, if there's a treaty that says we can already put bases there and we haven't done it, well, why not just do that? Why are we provoking a confrontation with one of our best allies?

I think he wants to expand. He wants to be the He wants to use President to expand territory since whoever it was. Oh, God. That is, to me, the absolute reason.

So he wants to do his version of Louisiana Purchase, does he? Yes. Well, he wants his face on Mount Rushmore. He wants his face on the coins. He's building his $400 million ballroom. I mean, this guy- Never going to get built.

I'm just telling you, never going to get built. Really?

That's news. My thoughts is that I think it's baffling for all of us because he to... First of all, his ideas of foreign policy are often frozen in particular vintage, right? It's like he really does just care a lot about tariffs. He thinks that's the way to do it. And so, tariffs it is. Resources and transactional, I think Google called it transactional predation of resources, he sees himself as doing what China is doing or something like that. Now, of course, it's very different. It's very, very different. It's often, as you mentioned, Bill, undermining our allies. I think that it's very difficult to watch in real-time the post-World War II world order and systems be not just chipped away, but kicked in the knee. Maybe like retirement- Or another part of the body. Yeah. Maybe like retirement, it was always a myth. Maybe it was never going to last more than 50 to 80 years. But we are witnessing the falling apart of something. That doesn't mean that something else can't be rebuilt in its place. But for sure, I think that it might be baffling to the average person because you're like, Why are we suddenly talking about Greenland?

You can say that almost every week. Why are we talking about X? Why are we talking about Z?

Let me just add in. Greenland certainly is a strategic and there are minerals to be had, whatever, that stuff.

Under a lot of ice.

Under a lot of ice. By the way, Greenland isn't green and Iceland isn't ice. I would I like to point that out. Thank you for that. I love that. Anytime. But to me, the best economic thing to do from a business point of view is to help Ukraine, because that is a country, if it was renovated, they have high technical expertise. We would, speaking of US benefiting economically, that's our best economic bet.

That's the one thing we won't do. It's like we're doing everything but.

We won't do, which is shove the Russians out and create a very vibrant technological biologically forward. We would make a lot of bank there versus a Greenland or a Venezuela or anywhere else. To me, if that's your criteria is what's the best deal, to me, Ukraine is the best deal. If you're just going to be that venal of- Can I raise one more thing that's baffling to me?

You have a generation of Republicans in MAGA World, whatever, who were against the Forever Wars. You have Navy Seals in Congress now, lawmakers. They're there because they were against Forever Wars. They were against our actions abroad and interventions, and they hate the neocons, and they're kicking dirt over Dick Janies' grave. I don't understand them right now. I don't know if this is going to be the Fiscal Hawks who just squirm away and don't say anything about what he's doing. But when it comes to foreign policy, the far right that is against interventionism has lost on every single argument, whether it's Iran, whether it's whatever. He doesn't care what they think about that.

You see Green talking. There are people. Green has been talking about it. She resigned.

She resigned. But it's like, leaving, give zero Fs anyway. Rand Paul. I mean, it's the same handful of people. It's like, Lindsay Graham has gotten his wings again. All those people who allegedly didn't want intervention are broadly silent in these moments.

Bill Bill, last question here. Is there any economic goodness to this?

Of trying to buy Greenland? I mean, again, first of all- You're a deal guy. It's so unattractive. The the way he's going about it and doing what he's doing. Are there economic benefits? There might be, Cara. How the hell are we going to know? I mean, how do we know right now whether there might be economic benefits?

First of all- What I mean is if a client came to you and said, I want to buy Greenland, What would be the thing as an investment bank for you?

I want to buy Greenland. Are you out of your fucking mind? Okay. Are we going to piss off one of our best allies to try to obtain this block of ice that may have strategic value? And if it's strategic defensive value, as you said, we already have the right to put bases up there. Why did we close 16 of the 17? Let's open them again or whatever it is. If it's controlling the Arctic and having a policy matter and a national defense issue, okay, I I get that. I get that. But what, you want to mine for minerals under a mile of ice? Are you out of your fucking mind? Yeah. That might work maybe with global warming. Of course, that's not an issue anymore. We're not warming up anymore, apparently. So it's going to be like many millennium before we get under that ice.

I don't think you ever spoke to a client like that.

That's the way I would speak to them now.

One thing, Bill, I think there's so much foreign policy action that I think when you look at, say, the Abraham Accords for the Trump administration, they feel like if you can get people doing business together, that inherently creates the environment for peaceful interaction, that the money is what is going to make those things work, not arbitrary red lines in diplomatic conference rooms. I guess I just want your opinion.

Maybe, but so far, it's just been a graft for the Trump administration and the Trump family. It's all been about graft. It hasn't been about opening up, really.

Well, technically, grift, but graft, too. All right, we're going to take a quick break. We'll come back. I may be going to point a new term. Bill's and my favorite topic, Warner Brothers Rebuffs. Paramount, again, no surprise. This podcast is brought to you by Netflix presenting Jay Kelly, co-written by Noah Bomback and Emily Mortimer. Golden Globe nominy George Clooney stars as Jay Kelly, a famous movie actor on a journey of self-discovery as he reflects on his career and the relationships with his his daughters, and his devoted team, led by his manager, played by Golden Globe nominy Adam Sandler. The LA Times raves, It's a fully formed knockout, and the Wall Street Journal hails Jay Kelly, the best picture of the year. I just saw it. I agree. It's a really terrific watch, and George Clooney is fantastic in it for your awards consideration. Support for this show comes from Vanta. Customer trust can make or break your business, and the The more your business grows, the more complex your security and compliance tools get. It can turn into chaos, and chaos isn't a security strategy. That's where Vanta comes in. Think of Vanta as your always on AI-powered security expert who scales with you.

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For most of the history of television, if you missed a show, you just missed it. It was over. It was gone. But then this little company called Tevo came along and gave people super powers. You could pause live television. You could rewind it. You could save it and watch it later. It was incredible. And the people who had it could not stop talking about it. This week on Version History, a new chat show about old technology, we talk about the history of Tivo and how it is that a company whose products actually no one ever really had or used became one of the most iconic stories in tech. All that on Version History wherever you get podcasts.

I'm back with Audi Cornish and Bill Cohen. Warner Brothers Discovery has rejected Paramount's latest buyout offer, urging its shareholders to stick with Netflix. Warner Brothers said Paramount's bid was not superior to the $72 billion Netflix offer for its studios and streaming businesses. The board also flagged the uncertainty risk around Paramount's offer, saying it would effectively be a leveraged buyout, the largest in history. This comes after Larry Ellison stepped in to personally backstop Paramount's offer with a $40 billion equity guarantee. Just a little while ago, Paramount reaffirmed its $30 share all cash offer. For Warner Brothers, no more, Bill. You've done a lot of reporting on this, and let Let me just add in how versant, also versant is what I like to call it, like croissant, factors in all of this. Comcast completed a spinoff of versant this week, which includes MSNow, CNBC, and other networks. Versant shares closed down 13% on their first day and now down 29% for the week, although that is index funds repurposing themselves, according to many investors, and I think that's correct. All well, Paramount has been arguing that Warner's cable channels hub are worth around a dollar a share.

Let's talk a little bit Now, Audi works for CNN, which is- Yeah, that's my disclaimer.

That's your disclaimer. Wbd is the parent company.

Is the parent company. I am a contributor to them, but I will be leaving if Paramount gets it, and I don't give a fuck. I'm God, you may weigh in as you want. I am happy to learn.

No, I am literally here to learn on this front.

Okay, all right. Bill, why don't you walk us through this and what happens next? Sure.

Well, the key point of what just happened was this idea that the paramount offer $30 a share is deemed by the board of WBD not to be, quote, superior at this time. Because if they did deem it to be superior, whatever that means, that's a vague term, which comes a lot of judgment comes into that. If they did deem it to be superior, they could break their merger agreement with Netflix and turn their attention to the Paramount deal. They would owe Netflix a break up fee of $2. 8 billion. And then the bidding war would begin again. So They did what you would expect them to do, which would say, Why are we going to... We've got this merger agreement with Netflix. We're happy with it. We think it's worth more. There's no reason at this moment to change that recommendation. That doesn't mean that if Paramount were to raise its bid, as it indicated that it might do because it said it hadn't made its best and final offer, but yet it hasn't done anything beyond $30 yet, that they wouldn't change that recommendation and open up the bidding war again?

They did note they would listen. One of the board members noted that on CNBC. If they want to lob another number over, we're happy to take it.

Well, they're in what is called Revlon mode now of selling. They have to sell the company to the highest bidder. They are required by Delaware law, essentially, to do that. And that's why they're constantly reevaluating these two bids. And once again, there's no difference between this The December fourth final bid that Paramount made of $30 a share hasn't changed in a month. So if they want to upset the Apple card here, they are going to have to raise their bid. Now, they may not want to.

You also had noted these fees that Paramount wants more control over certain loans, and there's a lot of money there, correct?

Yes. Warner Brothers is concerned about the way that Paramount would let them operate their own company between signing and closing. And since it's an 18-month process, generally, to get this a deal, regulators approval, both in the EU and here, to get it closed, they need to know that they can operate their business in the normal course. And Paramount put several covenants into their proposed merger agreement that would limit the flexibility that Warner Brothers has during that period. And Warner Brothers believes that that would cost them.

Which Netflix has said, no problem, you do.

Netflix has said, do what you want, which is another reason that they're gone with the Netflix deal. Netflix also said, If you don't take our deal, we're going to walk away, which put a little gun to their head. And so they went with the bird in the hand. At the time, it was the better deal. It made total sense. And it still basically makes total sense. It's a real toss-up now because of the value of this global network hub, in a part of the business where Audi works. Cnn is potentially going to be spun off under the Netflix deal. And so the value of that business as a spun off entity comes into play. Under the Paramount deal, they're buying the whole company, so that's a moot point. So that's why you're trying to judge the value of the two offers.

So it's what it's valued at, right? And certain people are saying $3 a share now. She was $3 to five.

$3 now. The chairman of Warner Brothers Discovery Board said on CNBC, $3 to $5. Morgan Stanley says $1. 50. The Paramount people say $1. 40.

And there's all debt issues around. If they pull some more debt off, it could go up. There's what? $15 billion in debt?

At the moment, they're talking about putting $15 billion on Audi's company. Is that too much?

Can you pay for that, Audi?

Yeah, that's why I'm wearing a quarter zip. I couldn't afford the full zip.

But it's not a vest. It's a full quarter zip. If you really want to pay down that debt, you may need to wear a vest. Yeah, exactly. There are a lot of subtle nuances going on here, which really puts Paramount in a bad position, to be honest. If they really want to win, they just have to spend more of Larry's money.

Larry's money. He's got to get Daddy. Netbo mogul has to get Daddy to pay more. When this started, did I tell you, not as smart as you think. You said they have smart advisors. I'm like, still dumb. They do.

I don't think they're listening to them.

I think that's part of the problem. No, they aren't. Well, because still dumb. You can see that over at CBS. Very dumb what's happening there. What a way to run a network right into the wall, on the daily, essentially. We won't get into it, but they suck. What happens next? They have to just raise the price. Then what is Netflix What does that mix do? They don't have to raise the price. Then there's the whole Trump thing. See, let me just add one more question. There's the whole Trump thing, which they've touted their friendship with Trump. But as far as I'm concerned, he's a little busy. I don't think he's going to... He's got limited time before the midterms. The dragging this thing out is not good for Paramount because the closer you get to the election, and if the Democrats take over, they will not get it through either. They will lose that ability to control the process because Trump will be essentially left naked without clothes, essentially. He won't be able to help his friend Larry. I'm sure right now he can't help his friend Larry. I think less and less every passing day.

But your thoughts?

Well, everybody's now, quote, unquote, Trump's friend, and Larry's his friend, Ted Serendos is his friend, even though- Right.

He's played it beautifully, I will say.

But he's a big Democrat. His wife was ambassador under Obama. I mean, so- Not sure that matters anymore.

No.

I mean, he wants fealty paid to him. If you've got a big deal that you want to get through, you're going to pay that fealty because it's- Except I don't know if he has that power as much as everybody.

I don't think he will rush to Larry's aid.

He loves to get involved in this, Cara.

Yeah, he's busy with other things now. He's got Greenland.

No, I'm telling you. He's our most healthy President ever.

He doesn't sleep. There's no time.

I hope you're right.

He shouldn't be involved in this. All right. So far, I've been right about all of this. As I said to Scott, That's what I'm talking about. I've been doing that all the time, what happens next?

Isn't that actually going to be the title of your memoir?

Yes, I'm right.

Look, what happens next is that their tender offer is open until January 21st, and they're going to, between now and then, go around their hostile tender offer that Paramount has made. They're going to go around to the big shareholders, stay straight, platic.

You noted it was only a small amount.

It was only- Well, so far, but it's understandable because there are a lot of conditions to this deal that are... The tender offer can't happen unless they have a merger agreement with Warner Brothers. Well, they're not going to get a merger agreement with Warner Brothers unless there's a superior offer. Basically, people aren't going to tender, but they are going to go until maybe the last minute at best, but they are going to go around and make this case that their $30 Share All Cash deal is superior to Netflix because of this business of the Otter's company not being worth this $3 to $5 a share or whatever it's worth.

Which is technical and confusing to most people, right?

It is, but this is the thing that these guys get into the weeds about.

And so what's the net? Raising the price is the only thing to do, right?

Raising the price to around $34 a share is the only way for Paramount to win this thing. Otherwise, it's going to Netflix.

What about the Saudis? What about There's also- It's Larry's another $10 billion for Larry.

A dollar share is $2. 5 billion.

Will they? Because it's already a non-economic bill. This thing is already so ridiculously not.

They decided that they have to have it. They've made seven bids. I suspect they're going to do it. I suspect they will raise their offer to 34, and they will win. I hate to... I think they will end up winning, but it could be wrong. I mean, there's no way without raising this bid that Warner Brothers is going to change its recommendation.

Not going to happen. I don't know about that, but I think if they do win, they're not going to get it through. That's too much. The time is too short, and by that time, it will be the Democrats calling for blood, and then it will be ugly.

Well, there's also a risk that Netflix won't get their deal done either.

Yes, but that's fine, but it's not the same thing, right? It's not like this, I'm the best. Their whole argument has been, I'm the best friend of the phone. Well, right. And it's a stupid argument.

Well, it's so transactional. Larry, what have you done for me this week? Did you donate to my ballroom this week or not?

But then Ted could do the same thing. A lot of the stuff Larry can do, Ted can do.

Comcast did it, which was quite surprising. But everybody is paying fealty now, Cara.

So, Audi, any thoughts?

I know that coming from NPR and coming from nonprofit, what are we going to do? The politics will change that I was not fully prepared for corporate media. And it has been an education, for sure. It's been an education. I think one of the hundreds of thousands of reasons for me not to comment on this is for the thing you guys are saying, which is we're in the realm of personalities and regulation and the government. It's not the same as sitting around talking about a business deal or even a hostile takeover. It's something else. If you notice people not speaking up, I mean, A, we can't because we're in the middle of a regulatory issue. But B, to say it's above our pay grade is an understatement. Right.

That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But by the way, over at NPR, they said, Fuck you, government, and they're doing great just fine.

I had breakfast with NPR host this morning, and he was like, We don't even want to talk about it.

But the thing is, they've moved on, and they're doing rather well under Kathy.

It It was always, like I said, it was always haunting us there. Now it doesn't. Now they're free. It's like, now you got to just compete in the marketplace. But lucky for them, they do fundamentally have a brand people trust.

Yeah. I think the way to go is, fuck you.

For a president to be sticking his fingers into an individual deal is not normal. There are agencies that are supposed to be at arm's length that deal with these issues, and that's the way it has worked. But this president likes to get his fingers into all these things.

I have people often... Let me end on this. I have a lot of people always go... A couple of years ago would be like, Can you believe he did this? And I was like, I do. I believe it. He's done it seven times before. Let me tell you, he does See Greenland, see Venezuela.

That's why, Kari, he does have time for this. He makes time for this crazy shit.

I don't think so. All right, well. I think they have taken far too long for this. They could I hope you are right. If they were smarter. But we'll see. And by the way, and if they don't do it, he is holding a very expensive leaky... Larry has bought himself an expensive, leaky yacht that he is going to not know how to unload because there's no way around. It's too small.

But without doing this, it's only a $6 billion equity bet for him. So if he loses $6 billion- Sure.

But I'm saying he's just a- Yeah, no.

That's why they're serious about trying to do it because they know that they're We know that they're at a strategic disadvantage without it.

Yeah, and even with it, still a hobbit. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Grock hits despicable new lows, even for the ever-despicable Elon Musk. We're back with another headline, Elon Musk's AI chatbot, Grok, is facing criticism from governments around the world as it continues to create sexualized images of women and children. Grok, imagine an AI image Which generator includes a spicy mode that can generate adult content. Meanwhile, Musk's XAI says it raised $20 billion in funding round, exceeding the target of $15 billion, including from Fidelity. Just today, they're making filthy images of the woman who was killed in Minneapolis. The European countries are losing their minds. You haven't heard word one from Sundar Pichai at Google or Tim Cook at Apple, who would have, should have been, CSAM is supposed to be against the law. So you two, you're soiling yourselves in public by not doing anything about this. That's my point of view. But why this funding round suggests investors don't care about these issues? I'd love each of you to weigh in. Bill, you first on what's happening here.

Well, as a great American once said, Kera X is a Nazi porn bar. No, that's me. Yes, it was. Thank you. And it certainly is. It certainly is X, and this is just another example of it. But look, from a business point of view, XAI and the merger between XAI and X saved X. It saved Fidelity's investment in X as well as Larry Ellison's and Mark Andreessen's and other friends of Elon's, I guess, and the banks who are about sitting on $13 billion of loans that they might lose a lot of money on. So that merger saved the X deal, which I got to give, I guess, Elon credit for devising and conceptualizing that. And now he's raising $20 billion at a, what, $350 billion valuation or whatever it is. I mean, I guess from a purely business point of view, Cara, you have to admire Elon's ability to make make chicken salad out of chicken shit. And you've got to admire, I guess, the fact that suddenly he's now worth $700 billion because of SpaceX, et cetera, going public. So the guy knows how to make money for himself. A trillion dollar pay package out of Tesla.

His old pay package was reinstated by the courts. All right, on one level, you have to admire that if you're an American who believes in Darwinian capitalism. On the other hand, you expect Elon Musk, and you know this better than anyone, to eliminate these images and go whole hog on trying to reduce the Nazi porn bar aspect of what he's created here?

Why haven't... This is Cease, Sam. This is this is porn of children. I think he would utterly allow porn of women. I think he's a misogynist, so that's water under the bridge for him, so to speak. But with children, this is something that usually sets off a firestorm, a problem. Any reason why they're fine with CISAM?

Again, does Elon Musk like to do the right thing when it comes to these things, or does he just like to claim it's free speech and whatever? Let it ride. He reinstated Trump. I wouldn't lose sleep or hold my breath thinking that Elon Musk is going to do the right thing here, but he might do that one simple, basic thing that is so obvious that has to be done, meanwhile, leaving the rest of the Nazi porn bar to thrive.

Yeah. Audi, thoughts?

I'm curious about the people who, like the first lady or Ted Cruz, who were so touting the take it down act, which was supposed to allow people a chance to take down non-consensual images his sexualized images. Marsha Blackmer. Marsha Blackmer. Yeah. Again, it's one of those moments where you're like, Do you actually care about this or do you not care about this? The other thing I think about is there's this weird collision course between the very muddied aspect of AI and that culture, which says onward, no matter what, and a pretty broad base, not quite a moral panic yet, but very much something brewing among parents and in school systems where they're banned We're phones, and we're Australia. We're saying kids can't even be on there. We're on a collision course, and sometimes it feels like the industry, their plan is just to outrace us. Build all the data centers you can. Make this thing, make your borne bot quickly, just Do it all while Trump is okay with it, and then people can't really stop you.

Yeah. But I don't- That is their policy for everything, by the way. Yeah. And I do- Like Amazon and taxes, Google and stealing.

But it's not 1995. Nobody is looking at the industry and being like, Well, they do have our interest at heart, and they might cure cancer. No one is saying that. Everybody is just like, I want to throw my phone out the window. I hate this. I'm not on socials anymore. I'm a teen in a Luddite club. The backlash is real, and I'm very curious about going forward if that turns into a political action, so to speak. Is there a candidate who represents that?

I will speak to that. I think the CSAM stuff is going to kill them. This is not This is where it stops. You've noticed that the Google settled with the parents of character AI. I don't know what the settlement is. I did interview that mother, and I've been interviewing a lot of these parents because it's a big issue since 2023, I've been doing it.

But at a certain point, it won't be settlements, right? It'll be, You know what? Maybe we're going to have this conversation with the public in public.

I'm not sure why she- No, this is in no way judging the decision of parents.

But I'm saying This is how movements start.

I think the reason Google settled is because they are not protected under Section 230 on this one. Their arguments were not. Ultimately, if this stuff gets out, it's very ugly for them. I wish one of the parents would just say, You know what? I'm going to just take you to court. It's just expensive for them. It's exhausting their child to commit suicide. But the same thing with this imagery. I think there is a group of people that will not settle, and they will try everything to settle because so much of this stuff is so heinous. Also, what I had is one of the parents read the dialog, and when any parent hears it, you're like, Put those people in jail. To me, they're headed for a perp walk. Is what I feel. In this issue, and it's well beyond what Australia is doing, but they're going to get a backlash like you've absolutely never seen, right?

Yeah. So where does that affect at one point in Elon Musk? You know what I mean? That's what I'm curious about. Never.

I don't think he is. It's like Trump.

Do you think it's because it just becomes the gutter? Like, this is the red light district of the Internet. He runs it. And because a lot of...

If you've noticed, the Internet is becoming less and less useful, and people aren't using it. The AI slot. It's really becoming less and less useful. And so the promise was this would be more useful. And a lot of AI absolutely is. I just think there's no business in child porn. There's no business from now until years from now.

Why aren't... This should be an issue for federal regulation, regular regulators. Absolutely. But you'll never get the Trump administration to do the right thing. They prefer to do the wrong thing purposefully to own the libs, so to speak.

But is it just the Trump administration? I mean, Cara, I feel like you and I have talked so many times about 230 and how lawmakers are just very reluctant to step on the toes of industry.

When I started interviewing these parents back in 2024, I called 10 legislators. I'm like, Can you please fucking listen to this and do something about it? And they're like, Oh, I hadn't heard of it. I was like, Get on it. Get the fuck on this. I can't do anything. And then, unfortunately, the people that get on it, they're trying to kill a fly with an envol. There's a way to do this. This is illegal. There are already laws in place about these things.

Yeah, but they don't really understand the technology, frankly.

I would prosecute XAI. I would just Time to... If there was a very ambitious prosecutor out there, I don't care if it was a conservative or liberal.

You're going to prosecute the $700 billion man? Yes.

For child porn. Is it Trump administration? No, I'm dual state. I do one of the big states. In order to have people talking about it, right? Because he's the one I would go for because he's the biggest and the most villainous. He's the most villainous. Anyway, we'll see what happens here. But let me just say, look, it's mostly Elon Musk's fault because he doesn't give a fuck. Obviously, he brought back Andrew Tate and others who are just heinous creatures. But ultimately, Sundar Pichai and Tim Cook, you're soiling yourself in public by letting this continue.

When you say by letting, you mean not speaking out, not coming out with counter technology.

The app stores. They took down a lot of that January sixth stuff pretty quickly when I did that one interview with the guy from whatever that site that was used for planning. They backed in the app store, but this is child porn, and you own this, both of you. I'm sorry. Anyway, they're in a position to stop it, at least speak out against it or temporarily stop it and get him to do something about it. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Okay, Audie and Bill, let's hear some predictions. I will go last. You will go I shall go last. Who wants to go first? That's not fair.

Okay, I'll go first. I have two predictions, Cara. One is that I do think AI valuations are going to return to Earth in 2026, the latter half of 2026. Not that AI isn't a valuable tool, like the Internet is a valuable tool, but just like with Internet 1. 0, you slap dot com at the end of a company going public, and it suddenly everybody falls over themselves to invest. That's where we are now with AI. It's ridiculous, and it will come down to Earth, and a lot of people will lose a lot of money, which is always, I think, justice to some extent. Not that AI won't be incredibly valuable tool as it already is proving to be and will become more so in the future. The second prediction is one of my favorites, which is that Hakeem Jeffrey will be a year from now, the speaker of the House.

If not sooner.

Yeah, more and more people are talking like that, frankly. Sooner, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

All right, Audi?

I would say that this is maybe more a wish. I predict there will be a movement of human verified social media apps, that someone is going to find a way to tap into the market of people who want to avoid AI, slop and imagery. I was thinking of this when I saw Adam Messery of Instagram do this big carousel little essay where he was basically saying, Instagram, as we know it, is going to be pretty much dead under this scenario, and here are the things you need to think about. The first thing I thought is there's going to be someone who makes an app that somehow is human verifiable and that people are really going to want that.

Yeah, or else get off. I mean, there's a trend among young people of getting off completely.

Because as you said, if it's not useful, then you can't find your way to it in the day. Tiktok is useful for people right now because it's TV to them. They are being entertained by this thing on a loop. But if they're no longer entertained because what they're seeing is an algorithm owned by the government's friends or just AI I, slop. By slop, I mean everything that is just generated for generating sake. Why? If you're 14, 15, why?

Interestingly, the head of Roku, who's a really smart guy, Anthony Wood, founder and CEO, did say that he thought there was going to be an AI movie hit, AI-generated movie hit. He's always talked about the back-end, and I think he's completely right. When I interviewed the head of Runway, the same thing. There's a lot of back-end efficiencies about to be imposed up on Hollywood that will be helpful for their business. But when it moves into content, it's a really different thing. One of the things the runway CEO suggested is that instead of labeling AI, we label real.

Yes. Because it's smaller. Very much so. So this is organic. That's my prediction as well. So you're telling me the wind is at my back. This is possible.

Wind is at your back. I know nothing about business, but I'm ready. I like it. All right, I will do this. I think time is running out for Trump, and I think he's much sicker than people realize.

Oh, this is a health prediction. I thought this was a political prediction.

It's both health and everything. He's not going to get all this stuff done. There's too much stuff happening and not enough lackeys. I know it sounds crazy, but even the lackeys are probably lacking at this point. When I saw that Susie Wiles interview, I'm like, The rats, they getting ready. As I told Scott, I'm meeting with Trump people a lot, and they all are asking for pardons. They're all getting ready for the inevitable. Normbrook trials. Right. They're getting ready for them. Getting ready for those.

But that's different from saying there's no after because he plans to stay. I hear you making a prediction that's different.

I'm not going to. As Scott says, biology is undefeated. I'm not sure who's less charming, Don Jr or J. D. Vance, but as I said about Vance, he's the cyber truck of politicians. But one of the- It took me a few. It took me a few. You're like, Of course. Yes, Correct. Yes. But that's why I talk about the ballroom. I think there's also some legal stuff happening to slow it down quite a bit. Everything that gets slowed down is a problem, whether it's the Paramount deal, whether it's the ballroom. I think, by the way, FYI, they do need a ballroom at the White House, having covered it. There's nowhere to...

As odd as it seems- It's always a bunch of tents when they have something.

It's a bunch of tents, and there's small rooms. They really are people, and the offices are small. It's really quite fun to go there, but At the same time, you're like, What a shitty office this is. There needs to be some renovation. Just the way it was done was, of course, awful. But I don't think you're going to get the huge ballroom. I don't think he's going to get what he wants. I think the gold leaf is going to come down, and they will have a decent, better side to it, and that's okay. But the big one isn't going to happen. I'm sorry to say. He's not going to get his triumphful arch either.

Is he going to get his face on Mount Rushmore or on the coins?

I don't care.

Do you care? The coins might happen.

He can have the coins. I don't care. At a certain point, you're like, Yeah, give him a coin. Why not? Mount Rushmore, I don't care.

I don't care. None of us mentioned the 250-year anniversary. I mean, we're about to see- It's going to be a lot of- I think propaganda is actually the safest word to use, definitionally here, Cara. I'll defer to you because that's your area of expertise. Propagand. That's the correct word. Because it's going to be the country's birthday in his frame. That's right. Just completely in the context of him.

Which is well done, stakes, and Bobby Van.

Well, it's a UFC octagon. It's whatever. I mean, just something that could be very academic and a little sleepy and history nerd in another year is going to be something else.

Yeah, I just think, I don't care. Go ahead. Go for it, old man. It's your last hurrah. Go for it. I'm not going to get mad about those things. Anyway, so we'll see about that. But it's time, TikTok, as they say. Anyway, I really appreciate it. But let me just read this. We want to hear from you. Send us your question about business. If you don't agree with me or Bill or Audi or whatever is on your mind, go to nymag. Com/pivot. Send a question for the show or a comment or call 855-515-pivot. Again, that is the show. Thank you so much. Audi and Bill came on at the last minute, and I really appreciate it. It was incredibly substantive and really helpful for people because right now the news- Bill, total honor to meet you this way.

This is so cool. Thank you, Cara.

You did a great job together, too. Thank you all. You had a lot of nice rapport, the two of you. You made my day. Anyway, the thing is, the last show was Brooklyn Hamerling, Stephanie Rule, and Don Lemon, and all they talked about was, speaking of gay, born, heated rivalry. So this was a little different.

Oh, my God. All right. Well, ask me back to this show. I don't want to have to harm Scott every time I want to come back.

Don't you worry. Absolutely. This is ridiculous. Both of you have been valued, of contributors to a lot of my podcast, and I really appreciate it. So please watch, listen to, and read all the amazing work they're doing at CNN and Puck. Audi has The Morning Show. Bill has a must a best read column that is so helpful to me in understanding these things. Anyway, thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. I'm just doing rather well, I have to say. We'll be back next week, and I will read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Manolo Moreno edited this video. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag. Com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Scott, come home.