Transcript of Kimmel & ABC, Nvidia’s OpenAI Investment, and Tylenol’s Trump Problem

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Hey, I'm Teffy, and I'm hosting a new podcast from The Cut called Tiffy Talks. Think of me as your work bestie who's here to give you all the juiciest pop culture deep dives, read celebrity tea leaves, and yap about modern life. New episodes drop every Wednesday on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. It's going to be so fun avoiding actual work together. I almost ran over one of our fans the other day. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And, Scott, we're 23 in the world. What do you think about that?

I'm Scott Gallowin. I like to be 23. Would I like to be 23 again? I'm not sure. No. Anyways, I don't understand. What's 23?

In the top shows, we're 23. We've risen to 23.

Isn't that amazing? You mean across all podcasts?

Across all podcasts, not just in our category of news. We're very quite high.

Watch out Collar Daddy and Mel Robbins. We're coming for you.

We can talk about Penus.

The guys at Smartless.

We should talk more about vaginas if we want to get to the top, I think.

Yeah, I was just thinking that. That's what's missing from the show.

Yeah, we're 23.

Yeah, 100%.

I almost ran over one of our fans the other day. I was driving and I was taking a ride on red, and they popped out from behind a car crossing. It was my fault. It was a no ride on red, but I didn't do it. I was stopped. But when you wander into the lane, essentially, and the person was like, Hey, and then they're like, Yeah, I'm a smasher. They were both horrified at me and then yelled love pivot. Anyway, he almost killed me.

I pulled a total power move. Yesterday, Van Koff was in town, and he said, Do you want to have coffee? I said, Sure. So I had to meet me at Jack's White, Frida, and I purposely faced the street because I know four or five people will be like, Prof G, just to say, Brother, you may be my boss, but who's really in charge here?

Did you do work? I don't think it works with Jim.

He's too nice. He's too nice. He's too nice. He doesn't care.

Why That's what I wanted that to do. It's so nice.

Then this morning, you'll like this. I want to share this question with you. I was trying to help my son study for the ACT, and you realize how much your brain is atrophied. They have this critical thinking section. I'll see if you answer this question. Adam gave Sally three flowers and one stuffed animal. Kristen gave Sally five flowers and two stuffed animals. What does Sally have?

What?

She has cancer. That's good. That's good. Oh, my God.

I said vagina jokes, not cancer jokes. That's pretty good.

That's pretty good.

Okay. All right. That's why we're 23 on that quality.

Here we're We watch out.

We're harassing business people and making stupid cancer jokes. Anyway, how are you doing? I'm wearing my Uber shirt. I went to breakfast with the Uber folk here in DC, someone I've known a long time, Jil Hazelbaker.

I'm doing great. I was in I've been in New York for a better part of the last week. I'm headed to Aspen today for one of those. Oh, your secret thing. My secret, yeah. My not-so-secret thing. I'm not sure what will be my first and last appearance.

Here, this is what I want you to tell Ari Emmanuel. Fuck you, Ari. Okay?

Can you do that? Yeah, I'll get right on that. Just like that.

Say, Fuck you, Ari, from Cara. Okay?

Yeah. I love the guys at WME. They're nice people.

They're your people, right? That's your agency.

That's my agency.

I have UTA. I like them, too.

Well, you can clear that up with cranberry juice. Oh, wait, UTA. I'm sorry.

In truth, I have issues around that. Just so do many women.

I think most women do.

Yeah, I got to say. One time I had, I'm going to tell Here's a vagina story. I was in Las Vegas, and a friend, I'm not going to say who it is, but it was a pretty well-known person.

Yeah, that's a good idea. I don't even know what this story is.

I would lead men to. I had a UTI, and I was killing. We were supposed to go out in Vegas, and I was like, I'm going to have to sit in my hotel room, moaning on the floor. This woman said, Oh, I've got a whole kit upstairs. I was like, Oh. She had all the pills and then whatever, everything to go, all the stuff that solves it right away. As her riding up in the elevator to go get the stuff, because I was in a lot of I mean, I said, Oh, you have a kit? Why do you have a kit? She goes in the elevator for old people in Las Vegas, goes, Well, me and my husband have a lot of rough sex, and so I really need it. I was like, Okay, like something I didn't know about this person.

Anyway. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, among other things, one of the things that's- I don't think people want to know that. It's bad about getting a UTI. It means that you're in trouble. Get it, you're in trouble?

No. You're in trouble? Okay, we're moving on. We got to move on from this. We must move on. Anyway, we have to ramp up the rage if we want to get to the top or get very calm like Michael Barbar. I love how you do it.

Is he still angry at me for making fun of him after being co-host?

I have no idea. I haven't heard from him since. Anyway, sorry, Michael. We love you. That's an indicator. Big kiss.

Maybe he just has a terrible UTI.

Don't start. Okay, we're going to move on. We got a lot to get to today. There's serious things happening, including a business impact of Trump's Tylenol claims. Is NVIDIA's big open AI investment really just a shell game? Many people feel that way. But first, Jimmy Kimmel returned to late night, racked up 6. 2 million viewers on TV and tens of millions of views on YouTube. He did very well. That's around four times his usual live audience, despite the fact that Nextar and Sinclar and local ABC affiliates boycotted the show, including here in Washington, DC, but it was about 25% of the country. Not the biggest market except for, I think, DC and Seattle. But let's listen to a clip from his opening monolog.

I've been hearing a lot about what I need to say and do tonight. The truth is, I don't think what I have to say is going to make much of a difference. If you like me, you like me. If you don't, you don't. I have no illusions about changing anyone's mind. But I do want to make something clear because it's important to me as a human, and that is, you understand that it was never my intention to make light of the murder of a young man.

I thought that was terrific.

Jimmy gave what could be described as an incredible individual performance. Essentially, I really appreciate. I don't watch late-night TV. I haven't watched it since Letterman. Essentially, I think Jimmy did a nice, not only did a great job, but I think him I think that emotion, it seemed genuine, is really important for young men to see. With all this performative masculinity and conflating masculinity with coarseness and cruelty, I think that's really terrible for young men. To see a guy that talented, that successful in what it feels very genuinely genuine emotion.

Yeah, he's like that.

He's like that. And he's done that before. I think that's really- Yeah.

He's like you in that regard, I have to say. You do that, too.

But I think young men need to see that, that You need to feel your emotions. It's okay to be vulnerable. It's important that you inform yourself in terms of what moves you and other people around you. So that, to me, was absolutely the most powerful moment. And But market dynamics Trump individual performance. The Jimmy Kimmel show, as it is now, is already over. It's just a question of timing. It'll reinvent itself in a podcast format or streaming, but the means of production and the infrastructure they've set up just can't justify the business. It is declining, as is all late-night TV. There's nothing any of them can do. The structural change here is so significant. He comes out of this a big winner. He looks really good. The biggest loser, hands down, is Bob Iger. What's interesting, historically, people are angry at the strong man, but people either love the strong man or hate him. Who people really hate and who history is really unkind to is the cowards that enabled him. If you look back, I wouldn't even go there. I was watching this thing on World War II and what they did to some of it.

Vichy France, that's what you're going to do.

Well, Strong men are usually very charismatic and have our ideologs, and some people would argue that the president is an ideologue. But basically what Jimmy Kimmel said, either like me or don't, is true of Trump right now. What I hear from people who've decided that, Oh, it's okay that his head of ICE took $50,000 in cash in a brown bag. I mean, it's okay. There's literally nothing you can say. Oh, he's really close friends and was bombing around town and hanging out with a convicted pedophile. No, he was an undercover FBI agent helping. I mean, so yeah, there's just no red line.

Meanwhile, President Trump took to Truth Social to say, Kimmel's audience is gone, and also to threaten ABC, saying, I think we're going to test ABC out on this. Let's see how we do. Last time I went after them, they gave me $16 million. This one sounds even more lucrative. Supposedly, they're going to fight now. They've hired all kinds of law firms, which is what they should have done in the first place if they keep coming after them. Thanks.

And Pete Buttish should have been my vice president. This is just a really bad look for them. There's no saving late night TV at this point. It'll have to reinvent itself with a lower, as I said, means of production. At the end of the day, Kiera, I think this is all... I think Trump loves this because I think his five comms people in a room with AI are saying, push the kimmel thing, push the Kimmel thing, threaten it. Boom, boom, it's working. Keep Epstein out of the news. Keep Epstein out of the news. All right, tomorrow, If it dies down, move. Say, Tylenol is bad for both. I think their entire strategy right now is not what's good for America, not reflects any cohesion around foreign policy, not trying to help the markets or boost the economy. I think their entire focus is, what can I say? And they test it a million times in one second with AI that will keep Epstein out of the news cycle. We don't care how stupid it is. We don't care how How trivial it is.

Yeah, no question. I agree with you. We've been talking about the finances of all these broadcast networks for a long, long time and where they go. There is a lot to innovate here if you wanted, because obviously, his performance was excellent. He's very talented. Most important, he was funny. He was really funny. He had some great jokes. De Niro was hysterical.

I didn't see that.

That was good. Oh, my God. It's so good. He's playing a mobster. It was perfectly timed, and De Niro did a great job. He has so much goodwill, Jimmy Kimmel. He really does have a lot of goodwill. The numbers show it. People wanted to see what he said. I thought he handled it with a lot of class, and most importantly, was funny. If he wasn't funny, he was too lecturing, he was too whiny, it would have been a problem. Interestingly, before we move on, let's listen to a clip with someone who was also doubling and tripling down is South Park, which was quiet for a little while, and now this week was not quiet where Brandon Carr, who they beat up throughout the entire episode, is in the hospital. Let's listen to it. Will the head of the FCC be okay, doctor? His bones are healing, so he may regain full range of motion. But if the toxoplasmosis parasite gets to his brain, I'm afraid he may lose his freedom of speech. It was so funny. It shows him with poop in his pants and so mean. I was even like, Wow, is that mean to Brandon Carr?

But free speech, Brandon, right? Hey, the Ellison's paying for that one.

Those guys are geniuses. I think they should get the Nobel Priest Prize.

Honestly, they're so It's so bad that it's so good. Anyway, that's the thing. You can't stop this speech. You really can't, unless you're an incredible hypocrite. You either have to go all in with it or not. I think this is an object because this is what moved everyone. I will make a quick note. There were a lot of this. Jimmy Kimmel did get all the attention. I see why he's a comic and everything else, but there's lots of other people, like as I said, Karen Etia, a whole bunch of people who have been quieted down. Kimmel referred to a lot of people, journalists at the Pentagon elsewhere. So this is a very serious thing, as joking as it is, what they're trying to do here. And it's very classic playbook of an autocrat. Okay, moving on. Nvidia will invest $100 million dollars in OpenAI. The deal will allow OpenAI to use NVIDIA's AI semiconductors inside its data centers. The buildout will require 10 gigawatts of power, which is around the amount consumed by about 8 million homes. Nvidia stock is up 2% the last five days, the time of the taping. This feels like a round trip.

I had feelings of AOL back in the day with PurchasePro and everything else where they're giving them money, which they're using to buy chips, which they're using. You know what I mean? This is so intertwined, and I find it It's a little strange. Several people wrote me about this. I'd love to know what you think about it, given it feels like round tripping. That's what it feels like to me.

But your thoughts? Oh, it's eerily reminiscent of... I've been through this. It's a signal, a huge flashing green or red light that we're in late stage bubble. And that is, okay, we can't justify our valuation. So let's take two and a half % dilution, issue stock, take $100 billion, which is only two and a half % of a $4 trillion dollar market company, invest in another company with the agreement they're going to use all of that money to buy our chips. So we juiced our top line and our multiple on revenues is much greater. I'll use another example. In '99, I was trying to sell, or early 2000, I was trying to sell my brand strategy for a profit. And I was leaving to start an e-commerce incubator. In New York, backed by Goldman, Maveron, J. P. Morgan, e-commerce in New York. I spent, I don't know, a half a million or a million dollars of the 15 million I raised on profit. My board approved it to do the strategy, the brand positioning, and helped me fill some positions in the short term I didn't have. Then when we sold profit, we were selling profit to Dentsu.

Dentsu originally offered me, I think, $38 million to the company. Then they came back and said, We're lowering it to 30 or 33, I forget, because those revenues you get from brand farm that Scott controls are related party revenues. You guys did not go out and actually show that you can get that revenue without someone- Fair point. Who's going to get it on the back end. Aol was investing in all these small and medium-sized e-commerce companies, getting shares in exchange. It's a neutral balance sheet item because they now have the shares on their balance sheet in exchange for them using all of that capital to invest on AOL, which would juice their top line such that they could go sell a company worth $10 billion for $150 to Time Warner. This is late-stage bubble.

Yeah, I had big Meyer Burlow, David Colburn vibes.

Oh, my God. It's so funny you say that, right? All this shell game to try and figure out how to juice. We were all selling software and stuff to each other. And then when the music Music stopped. Everything just collapsed.

Elon did that with his investment in his own company, right? So he invested a billion in his own company, which then grew by 20 billion. So he made the money back instantly.

Well, this in the short term, yeah. If you can show another $100 billion in top-line revenue, if you're NVIDIA, that's worth more than a two and a half % dilution. That'll take the stock up more than two and a half %, or at least support it more than two and a half %. But the bottom line is it's a pyramid scheme. There's the financial engineering aspect, the related party transaction era that is really, really unsettling. But even more bothersome than this is that if you look at any assessment, sophisticated technical assessment of the LLMs, there's something very interesting going on, and that is they are all converging. They're all becoming the same LLM. None of them have been able to to develop a sustainable technical advantage. They're all the same thing. All the tests run against these LLMs across the biggest ones. It's like a bunch of lines with big deltas, and they're all converging into the same line because AI can reverse engineer another AI really quickly. I think Sam Altman's vision is like, look, the entire economy is going to run through AI. When we walk into our studios, AI lights will a sense that we're there, a sense that we're not here.

It's not the cleaning lady, it's us. Turn on the lights, look at the color on our skin, adjust the lights, and then the agentic layer is going to go into our calendar and order an Uber, seeing that I'm flying out. I mean, it's just Every transaction in the economy could arguably run through an LLM. It's likely, at least Altman's vision, it's going to run through one. The idea that you're taking the most powerful processing company, and they are going to own a big component of OpenAI, the largest front-end LLM with 77% share. I think NVIDIA has 90 plus % share of compute, it's just creating an unfair advantage for both of them because essentially, they will coordinate. How does another LLM compete when the best processing company is designing their chips around the nuance of OpenAI's business and OpenAI has insight into what's coming next, maybe before anybody else, and can start designing around it. This is Wintel times 10. And if you had Tim Wu, Lena Khan, or Jonathan Cantor in charge here, you would have already seen a letter saying, We are very troubled by this. But in this administration, they're like, Oh, as long as you come to the White House and tell me I'm awesome, do whatever you want.

And give us a VIG in some fashion. Who knows where the Vigs are here, right? I mean, there's Vigs everywhere. Nvidia is giving that deal to give 15% of it. It's really something. I mean, I'm sorry. It should be a business, but of course, they're going to be doing this in order to build, and they're going to make the excuses that it's going to cost a lot. And so this is how we do it. But I had such vibes back from Purchase Pro. I remember that. What was that? I remember. What did they do? One person went to jail, I think, during that time.

But it's vibes from '98 '99.

Yeah, I was like, Oh, God, I didn't like it then. I really don't like it now. But do you remember David Colburn's boots? He wore a cowboy boots.

Yeah, I didn't. I knew- Burlow? No. I knew Myer Burlow. Who was the guy who ended up buying the Wizards at AOL? Ted Lianzis. Ted Lianzis. He was a nice man. Yeah, he is still. I knew Bob Pitman a tiny bit. Now I know him a little bit at iHeart. One of my closest friends, Greg show, ran the marketplace for AOL. I had a lot of friends there.

But those are the two deal makers There's Meyer and David.

But just to continue the walk down memory lane, when I started Red Envelop and had another company called Aardvart, the only place where there was any actual e-commerce was on AOL's marketplace. Because like My father-in-law was like, I'm not putting my credit card on the internet. Everyone thought Ukrainian gangs and the mob ran the internet. But AOL was this walled garden. You've got mail. It was friendly. If you had an e-commerce company, you used to go to Virginia Virginia and be turned upside down and shaken for everything because the only place anybody- Yes, he did.

That was Steven Meyer.

The only place anybody was buying shit was on the web. Then Amazon came in and said, No, it's safe to buy stuff on the web.

It's safe to That was the time. I really had a memory when that happened. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Trump v. Tylenol. Support for this show comes from Vanta. Here are a few things that are probably Really essential to your company's survival in the modern world, Internet access, a tax ID, a great snack pantry. Well, here's something else that's essential: trust. In today's fast-changing digital world, proving your company is trustworthy isn't just important for growth, it's essential. That's why Vanta is here. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry-leading AI, automation, and continuous monitoring. So whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC 2 or ISO 27001, or you're an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable. Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so you can win bigger deals sooner. The results, according to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year in costs and are three times more productive. Establishing trust isn't optional. Vanta makes it automatic. Visit vanta. Com/pivot to sign up for a free demo today.

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Scott, we're back. Stock for Tylenol maker, Kenview, is down 7% in the last five days after President Trump announcement that the medicine may be linked to autism. Tylenol alone generates an estimated $1 billion in annual sales for the company. The company has added information to its frequently asked question section stating there's no scientific evidence to back up the link, citing public health organizations that agree, including lots of doctors or Republican, everyone else. The FDA still has initiated a process for a label change to products containing the drugs and ingredients are associated with a higher risk of autism. Actually, the highest risk of autism is genetics, especially among older men. There's all kinds of actual science around autism, and it's a very complex issue. What would you do here if you were the head of Kenview? And by the way, Telenol used to be owned famously by J&J and sold it to this company. What would you do here? This is crazy. Would you sue the president or what?

Oh, yeah, I'd absolutely go on the offensive. I think this is a textbook definition of defamation, that there's no real science. I mean, there have been some observational studies that have shown that prolonged acetaminophen use during pregnancy is associated with higher rates of neurodevelopmental disorders in children, but these studies aren't controlled, meaning that they aren't really legitimate studies that qualify as science yet. Also, the reality is, and on my other pod Raging Moderates, Jess Tarlow, have actually got emotional. She's like, This is the only safe alternative for pregnant women. This is it. It is. It is.

I was pregnant also, and it was the only safe alternative. The only one they'll... It's ridiculous what he was saying. The science is so bad on it. Actually, some of those studies don't even have a study. They're not complete studies. I forget what the expression is, but they're not actually. The ones that are showing show very complex things, and often genetics, like twins who have it, have it, all kinds. There's a lot of genetic issues. But should they take legal action? Who do they sue? The President, right? Correct?

I don't know what the rules are around. There It is a certain blanket protection that when... It's hard to sue public officials if they can show there's no malice. They can get it wrong. But generally speaking, the government has, my understanding, has fairly broad protections. But I would absolutely go on offense and say, There's no science to support this. I would have run commercials of women saying... I mean, there are women who their pregnancies would just be tangibly more miserable without Tylenol.

You're looking at one.

Right. For them, with RFK Jr in the background and his junk, weird voodoo science, For them to say something like this and for it to have an impact on this, what do you have? You're saying something not true without proper diligence about your statements that has serious economic harm. They lost 10% of their market cap here. I think they need to say, The temptation will be, just go underground, just stay out of his way. People will look at the science. Doctors will tell pregnant women, No, you can take Tylenol. I would absolutely play offense and say, This is outrageous. It is not true. You owe us 10% of our market cap. I don't know the legal protection the President has. I don't think it results in a settlement where the President or the White House or the government has to pay them. But I think for optics, they need to say, We are so confident in Tylenol's use that when someone says this, we want the science exposed, examined, and scrutinized by a judge, a jury, and the experts that both sides bring in.

Yeah, that worked when J&J had that crisis around, remember the tampering and everything else. They were very aggressive. They were super aggressive.

I do an entire session in brand strategy on crisis management, and the premier case study across all crisis management is Tylenol. I forget when it was, some madman tampered with Tylenol and put cyanide in it. A couple of people take it, they drop dead. Then, tragedy on tragedy, the people who took their loved ones to the morgue or to the hospital, then returned home and had terrible headaches. What did they do? They took Tylenol and died. The temptation and the response that most companies would probably have taken up is the following. This This is an isolated incident. You have nothing to worry about. Tilenol said, and Johnson & Johnson said, clear every shelf of every box of Tylenol until we know exactly what happened and we can put more tamper-proof packaging back on the shelves. It cost them tens of millions of dollars. Basically, the next day where Tylenol was, or within 48 hours, it was empty. It ended up really restoring and creating a ton of trust in Johnson & Johnson and served as the model for crisis management. There are only three things you have to remember in crisis management, but they're really difficult to do.

One, you acknowledge the problem. This happened. This was terrible. It happened with our product. Two, the top guy or gal has to be out in front. One of the reasons Exxon got in so much trouble, the Valdives, was the CEO couldn't be found. Then the third thing, and the hardest thing to do, is to overcorrect. The temptation is to undercorrect and not get the way your business. No, you clear all shelves. Actually, Johnson & Johnson is considered literally the prototype for crisis management.

But in this case, they didn't do anything wrong. It's just making things up. There's no tampering, there's no science, there's no nothing. It's a little harder. But you're right, they should be aggressive, 100%. One of the things that also happened during that president for people who have not been pregnant is the information around vaccines was so wrong by Trump. I mean, it literally said to me, You've never taken your children for vaccines, any of them. You have a lot of kids. You've never gone once. He's probably never changed a diaper, if I had a guess. But it was so full of people who did not know what they were talking about and have children, but seemingly has never done any of the normal things you do for your kids. It was really quite something.

God, I'm triggered. I remember taking my oldest Alex to get vaccines, and he hated needles and him screaming and me having to hold I know.

Louis punched a nurse once. Getting, I don't know, it was like the measles vaccine. He literally, he didn't mean to. She stuck his arm in his hand.

They're afraid.

Wacked her in the face. I was like, Oh, my God. But it was really something. Anyway, they are afraid, and the vaccines are a lot better now. There's a lot of nasal ones and everything else. But really, really go for it, Ken view. Speaking of saying they made a mistake, YouTube says it will reinstate accounts Previously banned for posting this information about COVID-19 in the 2020 election. The decision comes in response to House Republican investigation into whether the Biden administration pressured tech companies to remove certain content. Previously banned accounts includes Children's Health Defense Fund, affiliated with RFK Jr. And Republican Senator Ron Johnson. It's a move to appease the administration, essentially. They never wanted to do it in the first place. There's not much clear evidence. There was the pressure these people are making up. But that said, this is a counter move to appease the current administration, and then they'll do a counter move if there's another administration doing something like this.

The most popular platforms in the world moderate. The amount of moderation or lack thereof has become a bit of a political football or litmus test. Yeah, fine. On YouTube, on all of these platforms, you can get to pretty dark, ugly content pretty fast. The free speechers, if you will, aren't true free speechers. What they are is they want speech that they feel helps them, and they want to censor speech that they don't. The people fighting for free speech are generally the loudest ones, are the ones that actually are the censors. This is the same administration that wants to tell late-night talk show host what to do. Fine, have it, have at it. What's so disappointing, again, is that just as Iger should have said, Okay, I'm going to sacrifice maybe some shareholder value here and do the right thing. I think at some point, these platforms have to say, This is our approach to moderations. We're happy to listen to you, but you're not going to dictate it because- They don't want to moderate, Scott.

They don't want to moderate. It costs them money. It gets nothing but headaches.

I agree with you. But the question is everyone moderates. It's where the line is. At some point, you'd like to think one of these guys is going to say, This is our policy, and we're sticking with it. Because free speech is not only about letting people say shit, it's about your right to not say shit on your platform.

Or take it down. The Supreme Court has backed these companies on this stuff, too. The lack of courage here to do what they want to do, they just don't care. They're private companies. I get, but they don't care. They don't care the damage they caused. It's led by Mark Zuckerberg in that regard. I was so tired of arguing this point with him, and he pretended he was a free speech person. He certainly wasn't. He doesn't really care. He doesn't care. He doesn't care. He doesn't care to run a glassy joint. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about reigniting of the fight over whether businesses can't refuse service. This is a fascinating story. Hey, pivot listeners. I want to tell you about a new podcast from the Vox Media Podcast Network called Access with Alex Heath and Ellis Hamburger. It's a show about the inside conversation happening across the tech industry. You may know Alex Heath from shows like Decoder and The VergeCast. He's the founder of Sources, a new publication about the tech industry and a contributing writer for The Verge. You'll probably only know Ellis if you worked in Silicon Valley yourself.

He's a former tech reporter turned tech industry insider working closely with today's hottest startups. Their first episode features an interview with Mark Zuckerberg about Metta's latest smart glasses, the AI Race, and what's next for the social media giant. You can find the Access podcast with Alex Heath and Ellis Hamburger on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Americans are notoriously unhealthy. Why? And what can we do about it? I'm Henry Blodgett, and this week on Solutions, I put that question to Dr. Jessica Nurek, a dietitian with a PhD in Nutrition Science who has gone viral for her criticism of Maha movement.

The movement is really focused on corruption and ingredient swaps. Changing the color additive in candy or fruit loops is not going to make a meaningful difference on health.

So what would make a difference? And what can you do to be even healthier now?

Follow Solutions with Henry Blodgett wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher. This week on my podcast on with Kara Swisher, I've got a conversation with former Transportation Secretary and 2020 presidential candidate, Pete Buttijage. This was a good one. We recorded it live and talked about everything from political violence and the Democratic Party's attempts to fix their disability gap to the Trump administration's authoritarian tendencies. We also talked about train daddies. Have a listen. Nobody's going to just come down and tell us, Hey, you just had an authoritarian breakthrough.

It's underway.

The real question is, does it get consolidated or does it get redirected and disrupted? Of course, I asked if he was planning to run for President in 2028. Of course he is. You can listen wherever you get your podcast and on YouTube. Be sure to subscribe to On with Kara Swischer for more. Scott, we're back with more news. Attorney General Pam Bondi investigating Office Depot after employees refuse to print a memorial poster for conservative activist Charlie Kirk. She's threatening prosecution for political discrimination. The company fired the workers, but legal experts say government action would violate the First Amendment. The case echoes the Colorado a baker who won the Supreme Court right to refuse same-sex wedding services. You don't want to bake a cake for the gays. This is amazing. Again, these people, they were for that, but against this. And these people can get fired from Office. If that's Office people's business if they don't... They can do whatever they want. But these people don't have to make those signs if they don't want to. And if you believe in the cake thing, at the time of the cake thing, I was like, it did run into some state rules.

Look, if a baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding. We don't want your shitty cake. I don't know what to say in this. It's the same every accusation as a confession of these people. They just literally shift and were never really believing in it when they first did it, or they don't believe in it now, or I don't know. What would you do if you were the CEO of a company with this problem, Scott?

I probably would have fired them. I think, look, it sucks to be a grown up, and it's your right not to do it, but that means you're probably not going to get a paycheck because every day, a lot of people show up. When you catch someone else's check, you agree to do occasionally things you don't want to do. I think there is a difference, though, with the bakery. I don't know the semantics of the law, but I think that was effectively refusing service based on someone's sexual orientation I think that is against the law.

I think it refuses- It was in a state, but the Supreme Court sided with the cake people.

With the cake people? Yeah. Fair enough. Thank you for that. Whereas this is the moment you say to employees as big and as varied in Office Depot, you don't have to participate in certain things that offend your politics. Watch out. Well, these people, I'm not going to help this This company buy the lumber for the office building down the street for the government because I think the government is committing war crimes.

It also happened at Google, Microsoft. Listen, everybody, you can object. You may have a consequence to your objection. That's what you're saying.

I like what you said. You don't want to eat a Chick-fil-A? Don't eat a Chick-fil A. You want to walk out during lunch at Google to protest Google working with the Defense Department? Good for you. That says fucking nothing. It's you totally virtue signaling. But if you start creating, making it harder for Google to do their business, the leaders of the company get to decide who they work with, and you get to decide if you want to work there or not. Yeah, exactly. If you don't want to work on certain accounts, you can say that. I mean, most people are reasonable, and they'll say, Okay, fine, whatever. Get someone else to print the things. But generally speaking, they're at-will employees. Printing up a Charlie Kirk poster There's nothing illegal about it. I don't think there's anything wrong about it. If it offends your sensibilities, okay, I get it, but folks, it sucks to be a grown up.

Yeah, I just think people should also be able to say no and then reap the consequences. That's all. I think they should be able to say no. Pam Bonnie is saying she's going to prosecute them for political discrimination. Shut the fuck up, Pam. Stop.

Didn't they fire the employees?

Yeah, they fired them.

What is she suing them for?

No idea. She has no right to do so. She has no It's right to do so. It's called the First Amendment, Pam. As usual, you don't know what it says for some reason. It's just ridiculous.

It's just ridiculous. Again, go for it. Just keep Epstein out of the news.

Keep Epstein right, exactly. Again, I probably wouldn't want to do it. I don't know about those signs, but if someone came, I was working in an office depot, and it was like, gay people should be hung or whatever, I wouldn't print them.

I think that's different than a Charlie Kerk poster.

I But they can still decide. You still get to do what you want. You still get to do what you want, and then you read things. What would you do with the CEO? You fire them, right?

You fire them. I respect your political beliefs. When you sign up to work at Office Depot, we all have to occasionally do shit we don't want to do. I appreciate your values, but if we immediately start letting people decide what work they're going to do or not do based on what offends their sense of political sensibilities, I'm sorry we can't operate a company that way.

Yeah. Or you're a company that says, Sure, you can do that, right?

Look, if somebody comes in wearing a swastika or buys a Halloween costume with a swastika or whatever, or comes in, the bottom line is, that's hate speech, but is it free speech? I don't know. You serve them, you thank them, and they leave your store. It sucks, but these things are tested. The whole point of these protections is they're protected when they're really fucking offensive. I don't think a Charlie Kerr poster even rises to the level of very offensive.

I don't think we should even decide. If they want to not do it, they should not do it, but they still have to read the cost.

Fine. You might get fired. You may not want to work in a target that sells beef because you think it's genocide against cows. Fine. They Have you had the right to say, Well, no, we're in the business of selling meat. You can't work here.

Right. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

Today explains on Romsverm. A thing about me is I don't drink coffee, but I can handle a matcha every now and then. Recently, I found myself in New York City at a very cute, straight out of Tokyo, tiny little matcha shop in Soho. And there was a line, of course. And one by one, I watched as almost every person ahead of me broke out their telephones and filmed a mini documentary while getting theiriced matcha lattes. They were getting all the angles, selfies, regular camera, front-facing camera, peace signs, one with Boo, one with the squad. And I was like, What is going on, you guys? It's a drink. And then I read that there was a worldwide matcha shortage And then I was really like, What is going on? And it turns out, Laboo Boo matcha Dubai chocolate was going on. Macha 24 karat Labubu Dubai chocolate, Vincent Boonbeam. It's not clocking to you that I'm spending on Moonbeam.

Get ready with me to try the New Golden Laboo Boo Dubai chocolate, Matalatte, Moonbeam ice cream, boba, crumble Cookie, and my weekly trip to Japan.

And for anyone who missed it, we're going to explain on the show. Join us over at Today Explained.

Sometimes it feels like people don't know how to act anymore. Post-pandemic, I feel like people are still like, Oh, human contact? How do we do this? People openly scrolling on their phones in movie theaters, not even trying to hide it anymore. I've seen someone smoking a cigarette on the subway. Get away from me. It's the energy right now. I'm not even We're not getting the pleasantries no more, and it hurts. If people seem less polite now, it all goes back to, yes, you guessed it, the pandemic. Nearly half of the country believes that people's behavior is more rude than it was before the pandemic. This week on explain it to me, why we've become a nation of jerks. New episodes on Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. How does everyone know what everyone knows? It's a state sometimes called pluralistic ignorance or a spiral of silence, where everyone mistakenly thinks that everyone else believes something and no one actually believes it. I'm Prit Barara, and this week, cognitive psychologist Stephen Pinker joins me on my podcast, Stay Tuned with Prit, to discuss his latest book. It's called When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows. We discuss what common knowledge can teach us about collective behavior.

The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Priet wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction.

Well, this is where we are. We're going to see a Time Warner-like acquisition that's going to be unprecedented in scale and also a disaster. Because what you have is you have companies... Basically, 55% of the gains in the S&P since 2021 have been driven by 10 companies. These These companies are now so far out over their schemes in terms of valuation that it's the equivalent of, say you have a preloaded credit card. My kids have the green light credit card where we load it for them. If you're trading at $3 or $4 trillion in value, You're really smart and you look at, Okay, traditionally, a company like this would be worth one to one and a half. It's like having two and a half trillion on your credit card that likely will go away if you don't spend it. I think these companies, I think we're going to see, and I said this last week, a series of not only the biggest M&A deals in history, but I think we're going to see a company that in three to five years will be seen as the most disastrous M&A deal in history. These guys are absolutely about to go shopping, and they're just going to get so promiscuous and do so many weird things, so many related party transactions.

This NVIDIA thing, this OpenAI thing is so strange. But I just wanted to take a moment on a tangential. Actually, that has nothing to do with a prediction. But for those of you, I keep getting served all of these Instagrams of all these adorable dogs that are at shelters. People surrendering their pets. The Nasdaq and the Dow Jones are the worst indices, in my opinion in history, because they give people the illusory notion that the economy is fine. The top 10% are now responsible for 50% of consumer spending. Sales of hamburger helper are up, which is a negative-looking forward indicator on the health of the middle and lower income. The pond shops are booming. There's just a lot of signals that the economy is not good on the Main Street economy. One of those signals is that people surrendering their pets has gone way up. Just a quick Just a quick add in terms of mental health, joy, things that are great for your kids. Just generally, if you're worried about crime, literally the best security system you could ever have is a dog. It teaches your kids about loss, responsibility. Dogs have been arguably the most accretive thing, maybe next to exercise, the most accretive thing for my mental health.

And these shelters are literally overwhelmed. In addition, my plug for a rescue dog. I've had purebreds and rescues. Rescues and mutts are, hands down, the best breed of dog. They are healthier, they are happier. It's as if they know they owe you. So If you just type in how to adopt a dog into Google, there are so many shelters that are so desperate. Not only that, I have so many fantastic dogs right now. If you're thinking to yourself, I'd love something that reduces my stress. I'd love something that provides me with a great deal of additional security. I want to take responsibility for something and have something that loves me unconditionally. I want to give my kids something that will teach them responsibility. And care and love, and you want to feel more mammal and you want to feel more connected. Just every day you want a consistent tiny burst of joy in your life. Think about adopting a dog. There has never been a better time to adopt a dog because there are a ton of wonderful dogs out there right now.

I will add, all the dogs I've ever had have been rescue dogs, and I'm thinking of getting another dog soon. It's the most wonderful thing you do. There's some amazing rescue operations going on. It is an indicator of people giving up dogs means they can't afford them or the difficulty level, et cetera. It is an indicator. But if you can adopt a dog, it will pay off over your life.

You can go on Instagram. If you type in the name, if you just say shelters in Brooklyn, you type it into Instagram, you will literally see videos of the dogs that are available. You don't even have to go down.

I'm going to get a dog, Scott. What's that? I'm going to get a dog now. Oh, you should. They're just... I've had a dog my whole life. This is the only time. But my cat's been peeing on the rug, so it's been a little much.

So you're bringing in a dog to get the cat in shape?

No. It's just like when that starts, my cat is older, when it starts to happen, you start like, Oh, pets. But you're right, we should get a dog. We We're not going to talk no matter. Good one. Good prediction, Scott. One thing I do want to note, here's a prediction. I talked about K-Pop Demon Hunters on the last show, and I got contacted by the creators of the two directors, and they're going to come on on, I think. I predict that will be off the charts.

Wow.

That's very exciting. I know. They listen to us. That's because we're 23, Scott, just so you know.

Number 23.

I have one prediction, actually, that I think is important. I think you're going to see a lot of ridiculous deals by the Trump administration. Here they are taking Vigs from NVIDIA or AMD or whoever they're taking Vigs from or Intel buying the PCs. But they'll turn around. Right now, they want to give farmers aid. I think Mark, you've been raised something that I thought was absolutely true. If taxpayers funds this, should the President ask for equity in farms? I say no. But if they're going to be consistent, same with money going to rural hospitals. If we took equity from Intel and MP. Why shouldn't we do it for all profit companies that get funding. And so I agree with him. This is ridiculous. Same thing with Argentina. Mr. Freemarket is going to get a bailout. Give me a fucking break because he's a friend of Trump's. This is Malay in Argentina. This is crap. If they're going to be doing this to some companies, they have to treat all companies, and they're only doing it for their friends. So you're going to see more cronyism, 100%. Anyway, there's going to be more of this ridiculous hypocrisy of helping your friends and acting like it's not exactly what it is, which is a handout.

We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag. Com/pivot to submit a question for the show. We're called 8555. 1 Pivot. Elsewhere in the Cara and Scott universe this week, this week on Profit Ge Conversations, Scott spoke with Dr. Fiona Hill, a senior fellow at Brokings, really well known for those trials around the one perfect call. Let's listen to a clip. Look, the federal government is being dismantled. The states are pretty much on their own right now as well. I think the sinking realization is coming in for a lot of people, that this isn't quite what they expected that they were voting for. They didn't think that all of the safety nets, the insurance policies were going to be removed. It's the same in Europe. Europeans absolutely made a huge fundamental mental error for decades, just relying on the United States and basically outsourcing their security. It was always a mistake, and now they've realized it, and they're going to have to do something different. She's amazing. She's an amazing person. She's absolutely great.

There's very few people that intimidate me. She intimidates me. By the way, I met another woman who I think is really outstanding, Anna Applebaum. She is. I didn't know this.

Fantastic. I've had her on the podcast many times.

Ironically, I saw this great speech, and I met her husband. She's married to Poland's foreign minister who gave a really powerful speech the other day, essentially saying that if Russian planes are in fact shot down, he hopes that they don't come crying and whining to the UN body. He was very powerful.

He was great. That was a great speech. I love Ann Applebump. She's amazing. Yeah, she's very good. But that was a great interview that you did with Fiona Hill. Before we go, Pivot is nominated for a Signal Award for Best Thought Leadership Show. Scott, we're thought leaders. Yes, that's right.

Yes, thought leaders.

We think with our heads, we're thought leaders.

That's right. Malcolm Gladwell and Simon Sinek had sex and gave birth to twins. Karen the dog.

Yeah, I just saw Malcolm Gladwell, oddly enough. He said, Hey. Yeah. You can help us win by voting at the link in the description. The deadline to vote is October ninth. We would like you to stuff the ballot boxes and make us win because we are 23. Yeah.

Let's deploy the National Guard to the City.

That'd be right. Thank you for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. Scott, read us out.

Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoy Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kate Gallagher. Ernie Inertaud engineered this episode. Jim Macle edited the video. Thanks also to Dubrows, Ms. Averia on down Chalon. Nishad Kharas, VoxMedia's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York magazine, VoxMedia. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag. Com/pod. We'll be back next week for breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great weekend.