John Bickley and Georgia Howe set aside the news for a Halloween episode debating whether Christians should watch horror films. They weigh the argument that the genre glorifies evil and fosters fear against the view that scary movies can explore good and evil, human nature and faith.
Georgia Howe argues the genre often has a clear moral structure and a Christian undertone, while John Bickley reflects on how a frightening childhood film affected him and why he is still drawn to the genre. The hosts discuss why horror draws audiences, including catharsis and the sense of safety afterward, why it remains reliable for Hollywood, and how shared genre conventions shape it.
They close by sharing their favorite horror movies, from It Follows and The Shining to Silence of the Lambs.
In this episode Georgia Howe, John Bickley
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All right, it's Halloween, so we're going to do something different today. Georgia and I are going to talk a whole lot, which is what we don't normally do. We're going to talk about horror movies. So this has been a major topic in the last few weeks, particularly on the right, but just online in general. The use, the usefulness, or uselessness of horror movies. We want to talk about some of our favorites and make, kind of make the case both ways. Figure out where we both land on this. We've talked some about this, but we're about to figure out what we both think about horror movies.
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All right, Georgia. So we talk about movies and TV all the time, and this is something we say every now and then. Behind the scenes, this is what we're discussing for night.
Yeah, frequently.
We're talking about news. Horror movies. In big picture, so we've seen this big debate.
The debate specifically, to be clear, is should Christians watch horror films, or is that glorifying evil, et cetera? There's an interesting debate online. We spoiled it a little saying that we have some favorite horror movies.
Yeah, I kind of screwed that up, didn't I? So we obviously, we have, we both have watched a lot of horror. We've both discovered. There's something that draws us to it. I can see the argument. Let's look at the argument against it first. So the Christian argument is, is this a genre that inherently glorifies evil, builds up in its viewers a sense, a spirit of fear? Is this not something that we should reject as Christians outright and so avoid this genre altogether?
And then there's been a lot of counterarguments to that as well. But there's some merit in that. You know, I mean, the sense of if you indulge certain emotions that are negative for at length, or even maybe at all, is that something that's detrimental ultimately to people? What do you think?
So I don't necessarily think experiencing emotions is morally good or bad. It's just part of the human experience. I do think there's an argument to be made that there are some content types that are just gratuitously violent, or which things that are particularly perverse or disturbing, things that kind of make your mind go in places that just, there's just no real good reason to be going there.
And I think maybe there's an argument there. However, I do think, and I have seen others argue this online, I do think that the horror genre, and when we say horror, we mean, I'd say a broad blanket of like thrilling to slightly spooky content.
There's a bunch of subgenres.
Yeah, we're counting Stranger Things in there.
Yeah, like can Ghostbusters actually count as a horror movie? I want it to, because it's one of my favorite movies.
Listen, listen.
It's a comedic horror movie, sort of, right? Light?
I'm open to counting Casper as a horror movie. But like we're casting a broad net here.
Terrified me as a kid. I'm just kidding. When did Casper come out? And we've got, okay, so there's slasher movies. So there's ones, I would say there are certain subgenres of horror that do are gratuitous by their nature, like slasher films, super gory. Is this something that at some point actually feels like it's not edifying to watch this? There are some of these that I feel like I don't want to, I don't particularly want to watch that. I don't have a need to do that. I don't know if it's necessarily bad by itself, but there is a sort of porn element to this where there's certain nudity that you look at and say, I don't, I can't define it, but this is porn versus this is actually nudity for an artistic purpose.
I feel like horror has some of that going on too.
Well, and sometimes I actually think there is crossover between like sexually perverse things and scary things. And I do think that actually is a corner of the genre that I do feel a little icky about. However, I still, I hesitate to tell anyone like Tisk, Tisk, you shouldn't watch that. You know, do I feel it's super edifying for me to watch it? No, but I would not necessarily pass judgment on anyone else who wants to watch. It's, I don't know, maybe I'm too, maybe I'm too loose on these things.
Yeah. Well, okay, so I have Young Daughters, and out of all the genres of movies, I haven't really thought this very much through, guys, but probably horror is the one that I have been, that we've stayed away from the longest, you know? And it's one of the ones that I feel like we got to be the most cautious with. And part of the reason is we brought on The Exorcist guy, who we talked about how I actually saw The Exorcist as pretty young. It was not my parents' fault. It was at my friend's house, okay?
So don't blame my parents. But I was something like 13 or 14 years old, and I watched The Exorcist stupidly. And it actually traumatized me for years, years. I actually was like, maybe I was crying one night going, God, why did you let me watch this? Whatever. But so that for me has been like, has left a mark where I realize it's particularly when you're young, these things can have a major effect. There is a certain level of terror. Like you kind of want your kids to be afraid of potential threats. Like we actually talk about this a lot.
There is another level of terror that I don't know is very helpful.
Yeah.
Until maybe later in life, or maybe it's never helpful, I don't know. But there's some reason, again, you and I both have admitted we have our favorite horror movies. We generally like the genre. I'm drawn to the genre, not more than other ones, but I'm still drawn to it on a regular basis. There's a lot of horror movies that come out in the theater, and I think, I think I might want to go see that. Horror movies work well in the theater. They have big, particularly if they're big, they're supernatural or something like that. The big screen lends itself, kind of like sci-fi, it lends itself to it being scared with other people.
So they particularly work in theaters. And we've said how out of all the genres, maybe the most reliable for Hollywood is horror movies. You don't have to have major stars. You don't even have to have an original plot. You can just retread a vampire movie.
Yeah.
And a whole lot of people will see it. I probably will be one of the people that goes and sees it. So that's interesting. So there's something about horror that I'm personally drawn to, but obviously a whole lot of people are drawn to it.
Well, yeah. And I think part of the reason why it's been persistently successful in Hollywood is because there is something about the horror genre or thrillers in general that make it very hard to shoehorn in propaganda. You can, but really it's like there are things that are scary, and there are things that are not that scary.
Global warming.
Right. I mean, and even when it comes to the things that like viscerally, like ick us out, I think they do actually reveal some conservative themes. For example, season one of American Horror Story, which definitely went in a kind of icky direction, but I will say that was a great season of television. They had these jars with fetuses in them. And it doesn't matter how pro-choice you are, how pro-choice you are, there is something like viscerally terrifying and icky about, you know, seeing a fetus in a jar.
Like there's something that you just, you know it when you see it that that is, that is wrong and that is icky. And there's something about the genre that it's able to kind of look directly at the truth of what is scary that makes it, I think, harder to manipulate and make work in some ways.
And it generally, I mean, a good horror movie is going to have a very clearly defined evil entity, something that is actually clearly bad. It's not a bunch of gray that's actually would make a horrible horror movie. So if you define it, at minimum, you define what is evil, you've now opened the door to people that there must be something good. So if you have a demonic force, there must be a divine counterforce in the sort of logic of the film, right?
Right. And I'm sure there are counterexamples out there, but by and large, in the horror genre, especially when you have themes of like demonic or some sort of haunting, it does tend to have almost a Christian undertone to it almost all of the time. It's one of the few genres where you see the priest is the hero. Like that's, that's pretty rare in most of Hollywood, but it's kind of a staple in the horror genre. And it's, it does have a very clear good and evil.
And usually the occult is the evil almost exclusively. I can't think of.
So actually have an example. Finish that thought. So usually the occult is evil. Finish that thought and I'll say something.
Yeah. So I'm a huge fan of Practical Magic, both one, and I'm going to say it, I liked Practical Magic too.
George, you admitted this on camera.
So you could say that that's maybe glorifying the occult and witch stuff, but anyone who's seen Practical Magic knows that really it's glorifying like excellent cabinetry and.
Well, like even Harry Potter, there was a big, there was a huge, I actually was one of the Christians who was skeptical of the Harry Potter series when it first came out and thought this is glorifying witchcraft. And there's still that argument, but there ends up being a truly evil, selfish, demonic aspect to the dark witchcraft. And it's defined, and it becomes more and more feeling like this is a stand-in for something else. This is a stand-in for divine power. Some people might argue against that, but I felt like I at least started to interpret it like that as I watched it.
Well, also just because you engage with and enjoy stories about like magic or the occult doesn't necessarily mean that that becomes your worldview where that is actually, you know, something that is real.
Right. The Lord of the Rings fans, we are a legion. Like there, I'm a diehard Lord of the Rings fan. Is there any part of me that's drawn toward wizardry? You know what I mean? Like it's that, no, no, this is not what's going on here. Clearly this is a stand-in because Tolkien understood I'm going to deal with spiritual things in sort of an indirect way in that a fantastic way that allows me to take a lot of creative license. That's what's happening. And I can enjoy that and I love it, you know?
So, and that's one of the other things. Look, I mean, horror, so many of the genres have built in magic, good and dark magic, which is just, it's fun. It allows for all kinds of spectacular things to happen. Things that you don't get to see in normal life, you get to see happen, both good and evil. This is pretty good. There's often like murder mysteries at the heart of a lot of horrors, right? And there's like who exactly is behind the murders?
And I know we've talked about this genre a lot, like any detective, true crime type feeling series, these are appealing in their own way. Horror, a lot of times has elements of that too. So it's a dynamic genre.
Yeah. And something I think maybe men relate to this, but I definitely think women relate to this. There's a reason why women enjoy true crime and we enjoy like Investigation Discovery Channel and hearing some of these, even though it's almost like the same story over and over again about the spouse who kills the other spouse, whatever. I think there is something about hearing scary stories and kind of walking with a character through a scary trial where you kind of think to yourself, oh, what would I do in that situation?
Oh, I see where they went wrong. Like I wouldn't do that next time.
Don't go toward.
Yeah, don't go into the dark basement. Yeah, yeah. That I think you almost, you get a little thrill of feeling like maybe you had a close little encounter with danger, but you almost feel safer and more secure on the other side because you think, okay, I have learned yet another life lesson for this very niche situation. If I'm ever in this very specific situation, I know I'm not going to do what that person did. And I actually do think there's something, and maybe men experience this just as much as women, but I have heard women say this, that you feel a little bit safer actually after watching some of this stuff because you feel like you have that extra experience that you've learned from.
You also have like a cathartic thing. It's like the Greek tragedy argument where you want to go through, you want to see the downfall of somebody to experience all that, all this sort of emotional range of it.
Yeah.
And you come out alive and you come out okay, and you walk out of the theater with your life intact. In fact, your life is exactly the same as it was before you went in. And you feel a little bit better about it. And that's part of the appeal.
That reminds me of, there's a pretty famous psychological study where they made these people walk across this, I think it was one of those like suspended bridges in the air, slightly scary situation, you know, no real stakes, but it's a little scary. And at the other side, there's someone with a clipboard who's, you know, registering you, and they have like either an attractive guy or an attractive girl is the person with the clipboard. And then they had another group of people do a less scary task, and those same people had their clipboard at the end of their other type of task.
And they found that the people who did the scary task rated the clipboard person as more attractive, and they said they had more chemistry with this person at the end of it.
That's great.
Because you're in this like state of arousal after an exciting experience like that that maybe makes everything seem more sparkly and exciting. And I think maybe there is that feeling that it kind of like wakes you up after you have a close brush with death, or you imagine you did because you watched this film, that you come out on the other side and there's like, I don't know, you're just a little more plugged in with everything around you.
Yeah. Yeah, the stakes. I mean, we got to, we want to be reminded. And I think this is part of my appeal, why I like to go to the theater. So many people like to go to the theater. Everything is literally larger than life on the screen. The emotional range is heightened when you're in a theater with other people experiencing this stuff. And I think as human beings, we want to experience the full range of human emotions on a kind of a regular basis.
And in a safe environment.
Yeah. Yeah, but also, yes, in a controlled safe environment where you feel like you can let that loose and it doesn't control you or something like that. And something about that, it does feel good. And it does, you come back and you're more awake. You know, you're more awake to life. And it's funny, what's also, I love the suspension of disbelief concept in general with anything with fiction. You know it's not true, but you can project into it. You can suspend all of that and imagine yourself in the situation, imagine that it's real.
That is incredibly powerful. It's such a testament to the human imagination. We are capable of turning that on and off in a way that's, it doesn't even make sense. To me, it's miraculous. And I think God places that in us for a reason. Like we are creators. We are also people that are supposed to be able to empathize with other people and empathize even with imaginary people that we know are imaginary.
That we know are fake, yeah.
In situations that we know could never actually happen. And I can still get teary-eyed or whatever it is or freaked out in a moment and I'm watching Lord of the Rings. And it's, of course it's not real, right? But we see the analog or we see the, there is a spiritual truth here. There is an emotional truth, psychological truth that you get at. So even in horror, I think, yeah, you get this really heightened sense. You also kind of know there's a, I think there's an agreement with the audience with horror about the expectations that are super clear as opposed to some of, like a drama.
What are the agreements with the audience in drama?
Drama can go anywhere.
Yeah, you don't know. You don't know. Horror, I know where, I know the beats and I know what to expect. And that is something, again, if I'm going to spend $20 to go to it, to go watch it in the theater or like rent it, I want to know, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a good time.
Yeah.
And you get that.
Well, and the thing about anticipating the beats of a horror film, it is kind of fun and interesting that it's the one genre that you can go in. I guess there maybe are some romantic comedy, you could maybe make the same argument where there's going to be these classic components and they have to stick the landing on these specific components of the film and that's going to determine whether or not you like it. You could see 10 different vampire films and you kind of know what you're going to get with a vampire, but you're willing to keep going back to see like more vampire movies, more zombie movies, more werewolf movies, even though you kind of know what you're going to get, if they can stick the landing on these like different plug and chug components, you can have a great time over and over again with these classic archetypes.
I'm glad you brought that up. This is another thing that I love. It's not that horror is the only genre that has this, but it has a lore. So it has overlapping and some of these things are isolated, but you have the whole zombie world. So anybody, any filmmaker, any writer can go in and say that the word zombie enters the first page and you're like, okay, I know, I kind of know some concepts in this world. Same thing with vampires. The lore is so fun and you get to mess with it and you can actually frustrate expectations with some of the, do they, are they, you know, does the cross actually work on this vampire or not?
Those kind of things. But that's actually part of the fun. So the built-in cultural cachet of all these things, fantasy has a lot of this. Fantasy has a ton of this. Horror is really good when it comes to this. And again, if you're just saying, hey, I'm always thinking about this because Daily Wire makes films. What can you make that has a predictable audience? You know, we have not gone the horror direction exactly, but it is a.
I feel like that is a good move for any studio. I think horror is a very wise move. And not just because I want to see more of it, because it's a fun time for me. I really do think like it's a money maker, even in a very challenging landscape. So you mentioned.
Again, if you do it in an edifying way, I mean, you can do it in an edifying way or you can do it in a way that's gratuitous and ultimately maybe kind of evil like that movie Sinners that I still think has this kind of evil underlying sense of it.
Although it wasn't the horror that made Sinners kind of evil.
Yeah, it was kind of the racism.
It was that it was just straight up racist. Yeah.
But anyway.
So it's funny that you mention zombies and I will, John, you can chime in if you want to.
I probably will.
So I have long sort of fantasized about writing my own fan fiction. If any of you have listened or sorry, if any of you have read The Forest of Hands and Teeth, I forget, I'm blanking on the author.
I've not seen this.
Anyway, it's a fabulous YA zombie. It's the beginning of a series. It's the first book in a series. And it's about this society that lives in a walled little, it's almost like a medieval village.
I'm totally in so far. This is great.
It's surrounded by a fence and it has an outer fence. Okay. And they have lived inside this fenced area for like thousands of years. And they have a religion that sprung up from the time when the zombie apocalypse broke out.
This is great.
And so they, and they're very strict. I mean, it feels like, you know, 1000 AD, dark ages. You've got your nuns, you've got your very strict church that is controlling the group.
So do you think at first, do you think you're in the medieval times?
No, no.
Okay. You know right away.
You know you are actually in the distant future. So in a post-technology world, everything has fallen apart because the zombies have taken over and you have these little civilizations and you learn that this is not the only one. There's the system of fences that surround this little village and there's like a double layer of fences that go to the next village that's relatively nearby. And the men and boys go out and there's a contingent of them that fix the fences because the zombies are always trying to break through the fences. And you're not going to be surprised to learn there is a breach.
Oh no.
Yeah, there is a breach. And this group of teenagers who have been betrothed, but to the wrong people, they escape, they go on the run, they discover some other, they discover like a treehouse society that is another one of these islands of civilization. Anyway, it's such a cool concept. I mean, it's somewhat, maybe it's somewhat original in this, but it's not completely original. It's the kind of thing where it's just yet another iteration of this zombie lore.
And I've always kind of imagined doing a fan fiction version of that where I would imagine a setting and I would really like game plan it out of what a society would look like if it sprung up in this particular geographic region. And I would, you know.
Do it, Georgia.
It would be so cool.
Audience will buy that up, right, guys? You'll buy it up.
Well, and that brings me to John, you can tell them that you're working on a little scary thing too.
Oh, I've got all kinds of stuff, guys.
We're both kind of creatives behind the scenes.
So let's wrap maybe by talking about top five or each of our top five horror movies.
So I'm not good at recall, but I have made no secret that my favorite scary movie of all time is It Follows. 2014.
2014?
2014. Yeah. I think, I mean, around about.
Seems right.
Yeah.
Why do you like that so much?
So I think it's a perfectly crafted film in terms of the dialogue is excellent. The creature reveal doesn't, it doesn't go downhill once the creature is revealed. It's very well paced and the creature stays scary up until the very end. I won't give too much away, but the creature is not even really a creature.
Yeah.
It is so excellent. It is so scary. There's also.
Your point there about how it doesn't go downhill after the creature is so, so crucial.
It's so rare.
So many horror films fail there.
Yes. So it stays scary through the very end, which I think is actually quite a feat. And what I kind of love about it is it has like this, it's a celebration in a weird way of innocence. So I mean, it's basically like an STD that you get.
You're spoiling, Georgia.
Yeah, this creature stalking you. But what I kind of love is there's like an element at the end of this young man who really steps up to be a protector of this young woman that he meets along the way. And there's just, there's kind of like a sweetness in the face of the evil at the end that I feel like underscores the themes that are just like very true and beautiful. Despite the fact that it's a very scary film, I feel like there's some wholesome values at the core of it.
Yeah. Okay. That's my number one. Then I'll just, I mean, I have to say The Ring. John hasn't seen it, but I think that's the scariest movie. The scariest movie I've probably ever seen. You can do yours now. Those are my two. I don't want to think about the others.
That's your top two?
Yeah.
Okay. I think The Shining might be my favorite all-time horror film. Huge actor.
So influential. Yeah.
At the heart of it. Two major actors, but I mean, Jack Nicholson, you don't get many horror movies with that kind of a listener in it and with that kind of performance. I mean, he's incredible. And it is more, it creates a lore that it barely even taps into that where you're like, ooh, there's potential here. They ruined it in follow-ups. But the potential of The Shining is massive. And so it's cool, but yet it remains kind of small. And the isolation thing, this idea of contained space, sense of trapped, the trapped nature, and then the people that you're supposed to rely on and love the most, what if they become the terror?
It's so good. It's so good. I have to say that The Exorcist, I don't, I wouldn't recommend people even watching it necessarily, but I think it is kind of perfection in what it's trying to do. And you have to list it in any top 10 list to me. It's like, you probably have to put it there. You then have some sci-fi horror like Alien that does feel like it's walking the edge. It's more horror than it is sci-fi. Aliens becomes more sci-fi than it is horror, but that still counts as a horror film and it's almost perfection.
So I think, yeah, The Shining, Aliens, Exorcist, I would put up there. If you want a fun horror light film, Ghostbusters is perfection for what it's going for, for the era, for the score, the soundtrack. Perfect. Great. Again, creates this whole lore, creates a whole world. They then have follow-ups, some of which are horrible, some of which are all right, but that one's another win. And then I think my fifth would be Rosemary's Baby, which perfectly taps into this idea of a lot of horror does directly address demonic forces, biblical content.
This is straight out of Revelation. It's the manifestation of aspects of Revelation described in Revelation. It's a manifestation of what is described in Revelation in terms of the birth of the Antichrist in a really quirky, crazy, kind of low-key way. So that one I think maybe that runs up my top five.
Okay. So I might have to put Silence of the Lambs in there. It's really scary. It's like maybe even a little too scary for me, but what I like about Silence of the Lambs is it's actually a murder mystery. Yeah And truly, as much as I say I like horror, actually what I like is murder mysteries that oftentimes they wear like a horror skin. But my true favorite.
Perfectly stated right there. Did you mean to do that? It's amazing.
Oh yeah. Well, so good. So I definitely love that genre and Silence of the Lambs is like one of the scariest. And let's see. So I don't want to say it, the 2018 version, even though I think the first half of it was kind of perfection. What I do like about Stephen King is like the rising action section of Stephen King. He always has some supernatural stuff that falls apart and becomes chaotic and doesn't make sense by the end.
But it's so exciting as he's like planting the seeds. And what I also love about Stephen King is he uses these really idyllic little small towns that are very.
Which entire TV series now do.
Yes.
Right. This is exactly like Stranger Things, but even better is Widow's Bay. Widow's Bay is.
Widow's Bay, Stranger Things, those, I mean, I would even consider putting those in my top five if we were considering TV seasons. Yeah, I love the juxtaposition of a kind of beautiful idyllic town with something creepy that's going on. Ideally, we got a murder mystery going on in there too. And yeah, I love when there's like a really well-executed, like mysterious rising action. And then when there's a good creature reveal or villain reveal, which in Stephen King rarely happens, but when it does, that makes for a perfect film.
Yep. All right, well, I think that wraps it up. Thank you guys so much for tuning in for this Halloween edition of Morning Wire.
Happy Halloween.
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For Halloween, John Bickley and Georgia Howe take a break from the news to debate the merits of horror movies. Should Christians avoid the genre, or can scary movies explore meaningful themes of good and evil, human nature, and faith? The two discuss why audiences are drawn to horror, whether the genre can offer something deeper than cheap scares, and why it remains one of Hollywood’s most reliable bets. Plus, they share their all-time favorite horror movies, from The Shining and The Exorcist to It Follows and The Silence of the Lambs. Happy Halloween! Get the facts first with Morning Wire.- - -Ep. 3171- - -Wake up with new Morning Wire merch: https://bit.ly/4lIubt3- - -Today's Sponsors:Alliance Defending Freedom - Visit https://JoinADF.com/WIRE or text WIRE to 83848 to make TWICE the impact for freedom today. Concerned Women For America - Join Concerned Women for America and add your name to the petition today. Go to https://www.concernedwomen.org/WIRE- - -Privacy Policy: https://www.dailywire.com/privacymorning wire,morning wire podcast,the morning wire podcast,Georgia Howe,John Bickley,daily wire podcast,podcast,news podcast
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