There's a difference between information and impartation. You can get information anywhere you want. It takes the people of God to show you how to do it.
More often than not, discipleship is caught, not taught.
If anyone says that they are an apostle of the same weight as Peter and Paul, I'd say, no, you are not.
Well, hey, Live Free Nation, before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, Church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Pointe. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast. Let's kick this beat.
Let us kick this beat.
Well, hey, welcome back to another episode, another one of the Live Free Podcast here. My name is Carlos Orozco and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton and Pastor Paul Cunningham coming to you from Lake Pointe Church in the beautiful city of Dallas, Texas.
Woo-hoo!
And today we're gonna be talking about, we're gonna be asking the question.
Carlos, what are we gonna talk about today?
Hey, thanks for asking.
I'll allow it.
I wondered.
Wow.
If you would do it.
All right, go ahead.
Uh, we're gonna be asking, are there still apostles in the church today? Oh my, self-proclaimed included. Uh, deep dive in the book of 2 Timothy, and we're going to be asking, how do I actually find a spiritual father and a spiritual mother? And we're going to be reacting to a video that went super viral of Ross Douthat talking to a Yale professor, asking whether parents have a better idea of what's best for their children or not.
You did a really good job pronouncing Douthit.
Yes, you did.
Good job, Carlos.
I might have not practiced that name before this recording.
Bro, hey.
It's a tough name to pronounce.
All right. Hey, before we go into this, can I read an email from a listener?
Please. Please.
Let me just tell you, you're not ready for this. I'm just going to tell you, you're not ready for this. All right. So if you have ever wondered if the name of God has power, prepare yourself.
Okay.
All right. So dude, this guy's name, Robert Moore. Shout out Robert. Lives in Delray Beach, fighting cancer. So Robert sends this email. I'm just telling you, buckle up. Robert sends this. So wait, you remember the episode we talked about Exodus 3, God revealing his name Yahweh, and how some rabbis have interpreted the way that God reveals his name as like inhaling and exhaling? Yahweh. Okay. All right. So dude, listen to this. I wanted to share something that I hoped you would share with the team because it helped me. I'm in Delray Beach with stage 4 esophageal cancer and 7 days out from an esophagectomy. I did my best. He said, ever think you're having a bad day? Read that research. I've thought I was going to die several times, and last night was the worst. I was having a massive AFib attack and I only had a small portion of my breath left. I was dying. With my heart cranking. In my panicked state as he's dying, I realized you all had talked about the very breath we have in a Bible teaching recently that I had seen. And then he writes this: Inhale. Exhale.
I began to do that. It is not overdramatizing to say it saved my life to get breathing again. And then he ends the email saying, I'll see you all in person by the end of the year. Whoa. Listen, Acts 17:25, he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything, bro. Well, shout out Robert. I think this podcast is over, guys.
I guess we call that a wrap and we're done.
Thank you so much. Wow, that's amazing.
Live Free Nation.
Praise God, dude.
Is incredible.
Hey, speaking of life, well, a couple things. This episode's going to be a great one. It's going to be really interesting. We're going to be asking, uh, ChatGPT a couple questions on being an apostle.
Stump the old ChatGPT. It's gonna be fun.
It's gonna be fun. And, uh, also, if we have time, also, uh, Pastor Josh, I want to give you an opportunity to debrief your experience with Sean Ryan.
Yeah, drop episode, finally drop.
That's right, that's right.
Uh, you did great.
Thank you. Thank you.
You did really good.
I agree, I agree. And I think a lot of people online agree.
Thank you.
Uh, shout out to Sean Ryan. We did not mention this last episode, but we have to celebrate this because we are crazy if we're not. We just wrapped up At the Movies the week before, uh, and we got some numbers. Uh, we —how many? What did it end up at?
147,000 people attended in person over the last 4 weeks. That's right. With more than 4,000 people indicating a first-time decision to follow Christ.
4,200+ people.
That's right. That's stupid. That is stupid. 4 weeks. In 4 weeks. That's right. I'll be honest, I've never seen anything like that in my entire life. And let me just go ahead and get ahead of it. We just spent the last few—we're going to get to this in a second. We spent the last few weeks region-wide And now we're going to go deep. And so we'll talk about this here in a second. This week we start at Lake Pointe. Boom.
Yeah, we did already. You did a great job preaching.
That's right. We started this week, Fight the Good Fight. 9 weeks, we're in deep dive of the book of 2 Timothy. It's going to be awesome. And so if you were one of the 147,000 people who came and hung out, let's dive in and let's do the thing. Whoa, whoa. Before we go anywhere, can I tell you something happened this week in the family? Please. Okay. Now I'm going to tell you this.— and dude, I'm a little nervous to do this, but I kind of feel like somebody's got to do it— a joy and then honestly a bit of a problem. Okay. So this week, it was Saturday, we went to the 3:00 PM service. Now it's back to 4:00 PM. We went to the 3:00 PM service last week. We hid at the movies and then I took my kids over to the Forest Frank concert in Dallas and Arlington. So this is me and the kids, two of them over at Forest Frank. This is pre-concert. Okay. Now this was awesome, but dude, can I be honest? It was great. As a pastor, I honestly had a little bit of a problem with Forest.
And dude, I don't like to do this, but I feel like you got to do it. And here was my problem. My problem is the problem with Forest is that man is a problem for the kingdom of hell. Listen, dude, listen. I had to have a little drama there. That dude is a problem for hell. So listen, I want to show this. This kid gets up— he's not a kid, he's a man of God. Yeah, yeah, he gets up. I want you to see this. I'm going to talk over it, so Trini, just start. So he gets up, this is a mistake. Even with all of the— starts concert like this. Tonight is all about Jesus.
We're going to be tuning our hearts to him.
We're going to be lifting up his name and giving him glory. He deserves all the glory, all the praise, and— even now, I just want to invite his presence. So Jesus, you're so welcome here. Praise welcomes the Holy Spirit. It's awesome. Thank you for being here. You can take that down. All the kids are going nuts. So listen, dude, it was ridiculous. So we're at this concert. Forest Frank, number one, he starts the concert honoring parents. The first thing he does is shout out, who are the parents in the room who brought their kids? And he's cheering the parents. Wow. Number 2, he's honoring his, like, it's all family. Like, his only concert I've ever seen, it's like wall-to-wall kids that are 7, and then I'm 2 rows behind, grandparents with their grandkids, all stinking worshiping Jesus. Everybody's going nuts. He's honoring the grandparents, then the grandparents are honoring the kids. Insane. He's treating children as blessings. The dude's Young Dad, he's got whole songs about how awesome it is to be a dad. So he's doing this thing. You just saw it. Guy's giving glory to Christ the entire time. Entire stinking concert kneeling in front of a cross on the stage, like, "Glory up, glory up, glory up." Listen, it's not a worship.
They call it a concert. It's not a concert. The whole thing is a worship service. That's awesome. And then, dude, I'll go another layer. At every stop of his quote unquote concert, he's bringing in some prominent local pastor. Now, I got bumped by Philip Anthony Mitchell. I was going to ask you. Amazing. But that was a good decision because— He can preach. So it's like he's doing this and then thousands of people are getting saved. Listen, here's my big takeaway. A Forest Frank concert is not a concert. It's a move of God packaged as a concert. That's what it is. So here's why I'm just saying this real quick. We try to on Live Free, it's like thousands of dudes that are young dads that listen. Here's why I'm saying this and we're going to talk about the Bible. One of the most important things a dad can do or a parent can do is you steward your kids' heroes. And dude, this is why this was such a big deal. I got my son and my 11-year-old daughter sitting there and they're looking up to this guy they think is the coolest guy in the world.
What's he doing? Honoring parents, talking about how great kids are, glory up, hands up, tears down in worship, all the things. And that's who my kids are looking at and going, that guy's awesome. So if you're— listen, here's a shout out, man. If you're a dad, mom, young parent, one of the best things you can do, You steward your kids' heroes because kids end up imitating whoever they idolize. So I'll just say something's got a bit of an edge to it. If you think that your 11-year-old or your 15-year-old can be listening to Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodriguez, or that Sabrina Carpenter Jezebel girl, think they're awesome and you think they're going to end up godly kids, bless your heart. You're too dumb to talk to. Bless your heart. Because your kids cannot idolize worldliness and end up at godliness. Steward your kids' heroes. Team Forrest Frank. Come on, man. Come on, man. Let's go. That's amazing. Team Forrest Frank.
Shout out to Forrest Frank. That's amazing. That's awesome.
Hey, uh, whoa, whoa, Carlos. What's up? You saw a good movie lately.
Uh, speaking of heroes, uh, I did.
Oh, look at that. And then we're gonna talk about the Bible.
That's right.
Uh, so I actually, I watched the movie The Odyssey by Christopher Nolan recently.
I haven't seen it.
I'm dying to see it. Yeah. Uh, a lot of people are saying that this is probably the best movie he's ever made. So, you know, people, it's been received really well. So here's what I wanna ask you guys. Um, is Is the movie The Odyssey a Christian movie?
#LiveFreeNation.
The answer is— Paul's like, uh, the answer is, uh, no, it's not. It's literally a pagan, uh, epic, uh, poem. So, uh, it is not a Christian movie. It is an epic myth. Uh, but here's what I will say. A lot of people are noticing when you start paying attention to the story and to the movie, it is inevitable to point out that there's a theme after theme after theme, um, that ultimately points to something the Bible says is actually true and will happen. And at some point it just points to who Jesus is. And so let me, let me just give you a brief overview. Um, spoiler alert, I'm about to give you a couple spoilers and you cannot get mad at me because you got 3,000 years to read the book. Yeah, so check this out. So The Odyssey basically talks about this king, his name is Odysseus, and he is a king who is also a warrior who fights this epic battle and he's returning home. Uh, in the movie you have Odysseus's wife Penelope. She is a faithful, loving wife who is expecting the return of the husband to come home.
The people of Ithaca are expecting their king to return and restore the kingdom. Some people in Ithaca, they've forgotten about this King, so they rebel. He comes back and people do not recognize who he is. One particular woman does recognize him, only until she sees the scars and the wounds in the king's body. Eventually— hold on— eventually the king comes back, he separates the faithful and the rebellious, defeats his enemies, he restores the kingdom, and at the end of the movie— spoiler alert— he goes to his son and says, you are the heir to my throne. So that story right there, The Odyssey, was actually— to give you a little bit of context— it was written 750 years before Christ by Homer. And to, to put it in perspective biblically, this is basically around the prophet Isaiah. So 750 years before Christ, uh, that's the story. For thousands of years, this is a story that has resonated deeply in the hearts of people. There's something about this story that when people have heard it, they're like, there's something true about this story. And here's why: because the Bible says that God has put eternity in the hearts of men.
And every single human being in history, no matter what your cultural —background is ultimately longs for a savior, a warrior, and a king to return home. So here's what the Bible says: Jesus is the ultimate king, and he is the ultimate warrior. He— the Bible says in Exodus, God is a warrior, the Lord is his name. Jesus fights this epic war. He goes to a cross, he dies in our place, uh, he, he defeats Satan, sin, and death. He resurrects. But that's a win, by the way. And 2,000 years ago, he says, I am the king that is going to return. I am the king that's going to be back. And the church, the Bible says, is like a bride who is eagerly and expected— eagerly expecting the king to return. The people of God are expecting the king to come and restore his kingdom. Uh, the Bible says that the kingdom is amongst us, but a lot of people will not recognize him. And when the king— when King Jesus ultimately comes back, he will separate the faithful and the rebellious. He will defeat his enemies. He will restore his kingdom. Those who are sons and daughters are adopted in him.
The Bible says that we are co-heirs with Christ. And so here's the point. C.S. Lewis said this, and he, I think he said it well. The Odyssey is a great example of a quote unquote, a myth that points to a true myth, a true story, which means that the Odyssey whispers the name of the greatest story in history, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the ultimate king and the ultimate warrior.
Come on, man. Come on. So good.
There you go.
Every story whispers his name. Amen.
Amen. Pastor Josh, I have a question for you.
I will allow it.
What did I make it to the sermon?
A lot, man. So let me just say, let's wind it up and tee it off. I'm really excited about this series. First of all, let me just shout out Live Free Nation. If you are not attending Lake Pointe in person, but maybe you listen online, I want to encourage you. We just spent 4 weeks going wide. We're going to go deep for the next 9. So we're going to deep dive the book of 2 Timothy. Part of the reason for that is I just walked into 2026 feeling like I get away, pray, usually spend a little time fasting. You just got to go, Lord, what are the outcomes you want for your church this year? Walking into '26, I just had this sentence, I am a disciple. So literally every sermon series this year just hangs off the I am a disciple thing. So why are we doing 2 Timothy? All it is, is this an older Christian man discipling a younger Christian man. That's all this book is. So I would say this, we'll have a link for you in show notes or the little deal. We got a little— I pushed everybody to get this little Crossway 2 Timothy journals where you can bring that sucker every week or when you sit down and watch sermon, take notes, and then you're going to have that for the rest of your life.
So let me do this real quick. Obviously what you got in the book of 2 Timothy is it is interestingly, not only is it written by the Apostle Paul to— I'm going to get to this in a second— to his favorite, Paul's favorite disciple he ever made. I'll talk about that here in a second. I'm going to do 9 fast facts about Timothy. It'll be fun. It is also almost certainly the last letter Paul ever writes. So I will just point this out. A few years ago, went to Rome. You can actually see the room in which this book was written. If you go to Rome, it's about a block from the Roman Forum, you're going to find, it's called Mamertine Prison. Really interesting. I've mentioned it before. Most people walk past it, have no idea it's even there. I mean, it's like you don't notice it. There's not even a sign. It's just there. Like, okay. But Mamertine Prison, you walk right in and it is virtually guaranteed that is the prison cell Paul wrote 2 Timothy from. We know this for a few reasons. That's what's called the Tullianum. I'm gonna talk about this here in a second.
The Tullianum was in a Roman jail. There would be one cell that was sunken down underneath the floor. We'll get to this in a second. That would've been, because it was underground, it would've been cooler than the above cells. This is Italy, it's a little warmer, all the things. And that's where they would keep prisoners who were on death row. So church history tells us the Apostle, it's a little mind-blowing, the Apostle Paul, was right there when he wrote 2 Timothy. Now you may go, well, how do we know that he was there? Just a couple of fast facts. We are told in 2 Timothy, Paul says that he was, quote, chained like a criminal. Keep that up there, please, Trinity. Chained like a criminal. That is where prisoners were kept before a death row sentence. Paul, obviously, this is his second Roman imprisonment. Paul gets his head chopped off right after this. This is the prison that is close. It's the only prison that's close to the proximity of Paul's place of execution. So you got it right there. Paul was a Roman citizen. This is where they kept Roman citizens. So everything points to that being the one.
Now here's what's interesting from 2 Timothy. We'll get to this later in the series. Paul says two things that make you go, "Dagummit, that's where he wrote it." 2 Timothy 4:13, Paul says, "When you come," talking to Timothy, "bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas." and my scrolls, especially the parchments. Now, it's a little interesting. People have always been like, well, dude, it's Italy, it's warm. Why is Paul asking for a cloak? Well, stop and think, because he's in the sunken Tullianum that's underground. It's like being in a cave where it keeps room temperature is roughly ground temperature. So it's cool. So number one, you got that. Number two, 2 Timothy 2:8-9, Paul says, remember Jesus Christ risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel for which I am suffering. And then he says this, bound with chains as a criminal. And then I love this, but the word of God is not bound. I love it so good. I love it so much. Injected into my veins. Now, dude, here's what's nuts is to this day. So you already know this is the jail Paul's at right before he experiences his death sentence.
Now you know that's the cell he's in.. Now there's only one spot. So in a Tullianum, you see that little hole at the top? The prisoner that was on a death sentence would've been lowered through that little hole. That's the actual seat the Apostle Paul sat on when he wrote 2 Timothy. And then bro, when it says bound with chains as a criminal, if you look real close, it's down and to the right of that little sign right there. There's two holes, bro. It's right there. Two holes in the wall. That's the exact two holes where they would've passed the chain and the Apostle Paul would've had both his wrists chained through those daggum holes. So when he writes, bound with chains as a criminal, the Apostle Paul is sitting right there writing that scripture right there. Wow. So just like it kind of drops on you like a time bomb. And I will just say this, I just want to point this out. If somebody's in a spot where you're in a season of life where it's like, man, life is hard and things are painful. When I look at that, I just want to point this out to you.
You've never heard a single one of Paul's sermons, but if you're a Christian, you've read every one of his letters. God will redeem your pain. Amen. God will redeem your pain. Okay, now let me say a couple quick things. Do I have time? Can I? You have time. Come on, you got it. Paul, have you ever heard the theory that the Apostle Paul suffered from dwarfism? I don't think I have, actually. Okay, I'm throwing this at you. I didn't tell you I was going to do this. This is a thing. Oh, okay. Let me throw this at you. I'm going to give you this. I heard this from somebody else.
I heard he was short. That was the thing.
He was short, but not dwarfism. Okay, check this. I ran across this this week. Now I'm going to throw this at you, and when I'm done, I want you to say if you're in or out. Okay. Okay. There's more to it than you would think. Yeah. All right. So check this out. Okay. Number one, The average first century male in Rome was between 5'4" and 5'6". So I'm not short, I'm just Roman. I'm 5'8", by the way. Number 2, now check this out. So Paul's Greek name, I'm not just doing a bit here. This actually will make you think. Paul's Greek name, Paulos, literally means little. And back then they would frequently name people after something about them. Okay, now let's keep going. Number 3, because of that, for a reason I'm gonna show you here in a second. There are people who estimate Paul would've been between maybe 4'6" and 4'8" and maybe weighed £100. Now, let me talk about why. This is actually kind of interesting. Okay, so there's a 2nd century text, 2nd century equals the 100s. Okay, now by the way, I'm not saying I'm in on this. I'm saying it's interesting and I wanna see what you guys think.
Okay, 2nd century text is called the Acts of Paul and Thecla. And so there's a person who said they saw, they were at a place where they saw Paul visibly. Here's how they described him. A small man with regard to height, bald on the head. Shout out ChatGPT. And then it says curved in the legs. That's how they described the Apostle Paul. Curved in the legs. Now, there's a, I saw this online. There is a researcher, guy's name is Isaac Soone. Who he kind of pointed out, he was like, "Man, that's kind of a description of somebody with dwarfism." Now, but he takes a step further. I'm out on this and I'm going to tell you why I'm out on this, but it's still interesting. In Acts 9, Paul is said to have escaped Damascus. Anybody remember how he escapes Damascus? Lowering in a basket. Lowered in a basket. Okay. This same dude, the Isaac Soone guy, he did some study on first century Roman baskets and his conclusion was, That type of basket could only hold somebody that weighed under £100. So, okay, there you go. Now, interesting. And then this dude just did a couple context clues.
Now I'm out. I'm just gonna shoot you real straight. I'm out on this. I'm gonna tell you why I'm out on it. It's interesting to me. Some people have gone, well, hey dude, nobody has ever known what is Paul's thorn in the flesh that he mentions in, it's 2 Corinthians? Yeah. 2 Corinthians. What's the thorn in the flesh? There's something about Paul's flesh that bothered him. Asked the Lord to take it away. He didn't take it away. What was that? Nobody knows. 1 Corinthians 1. Paul specifically says, God has chosen what is weak in the world to shame what is strong, seemingly talking about himself. So you start putting stuff together. 2 Corinthians 10, if you Bible nerd out on 2 Corinthians, essentially all 2 Corinthians is these guys that were super apostles. They were like, we're cooler than you and better than you and better looking than you and all this stuff. What Paul says about them is, here's what's wrong with these guys. Here's what Paul says. He goes, those guys are judging me by appearances. There's apparently something about Paul's appearance that made these guys go, "Guy like that? You gotta be kidding me.
That dude's not going to do anything." And then the same chapter says, quote, in— they're talking about Paul. It says, quote, "In person, he is unimpressive." So dude, so this is one guy's theory. Cards on the table, I'm out. I'll tell you why I'm out here in a second. But you just put it all together and you start going, you know, second century description, short in stature, curved in legs, lower down to the basket, maybe £100. There's all these little things make it sound like he was short. So let me ask you guys, in or out on the theory Paul may have suffered from dwarfism? What do you think? I think I'm out.
I've heard it before. You have heard it?
I have. Yeah. I've never heard it. I was this many years old before I heard that.
I've heard it before. I think I'm out, but it's just, I think it's plausible. Yeah. I just, I'm not sure that the evidence is fully there.
Yeah. I've always heard he's short, bald, and ugly, which might do Paul. You should just wear a hat, man. And it's so funny when people meet me in the lobby over over here, like everywhere I am, they're like, oh dude, I almost didn't even recognize you without your hat. Because I'm walking around like this. So I'm like, Paul just needed a trucker hat, man. That's hilarious. No, but I think I'm out as well. I put it this way: if you put them all together, it seems like a lot of circumstantial evidence that can kind of add up. I just don't know.
It's got a bit of a Candace Owens vibe there. Why are you— all right, why are you out? Here's why I'm out. I'm out for two reasons. One, basically all the narratives about Paul are written by Luke, who was a doctor, and I'm kind of like, I think he would have said something. There you go.
He's very detailed. Very detailed.
Luke is super I think he would've said something. Good point. The other one, I did a little research on this today and I just asked, I got to thinking, 'cause at first I was like, maybe. So I asked Grok Expert and then I double-checked its answer. Oh, wow. Okay. Can you ever tell from a context clue how far the Apostle Paul walked in a single day? 'Cause I was like, dude, you see where I'm going with this? Yeah. Okay. I'll shoot you straight. Reality. Greece. So your best guess is we do know that Paul apparently from Troas to Assos, there was a time where either Paul did or was going to or said he was going to, and he was just going to meet him the next day. They said they were going to sail and Paul was like, well, I'll just walk. And that was the night he did the long preaching till midnight. Eutychus falls and dies and does all this stuff. And then you look it up, it's 20 miles from Troas to Assos. But if you measure the Roman road route, it would've been 30 miles. So apparently Paul was like, "Hey man, if I push it, I think I can walk 30 miles in about a day." And honestly, dude, if that was his physical condition, it's hard for me to see it would've been a possibility.
So there you go. I don't think so. That's interesting. No?
I'm out.
I think I'm out as well.
And just for the record, I don't think anyone could listen to this and come to this conclusion, but we are not making fun of anyone who has dwarfism. Of course. Of course. Just in case anyone could possibly come to that conclusion, this is more just conjecture, 'cause we've been doing research, it's like, oh, it's an interesting thing to think about.
Of course not. Man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart. Exactly. Of course not. Exactly. Okay, let me fast fact things about Timothy. The whole sermon was about finding a spiritual father or a spiritual mother. That is something that few people ever experience in their life. Big deal. The people who do are never the same. So let me just, let me fast fact some things about Timothy. So here's why we called the series Fight the Good Fight. The Apostle Paul, I'm going to get to this last out of my 9 facts. The Apostle Paul takes a fatherless kid. I love this so much. He takes a fatherless kid and he goes, hey buddy, I'm going to be your spiritual dad now. There are 2 things he says to Timothy. Actually, there's only 1 thing I'm aware of he says to Timothy in both 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy. In 1 Timothy, he tells him, hey buddy, I love this. He goes, hey buddy, fight the good fight. Fight the good fight. And listen to every man and woman listening. What the Lord wants for you is for you to leverage your life.
Don't be passive. Don't sit by. Don't just watch life happen. He wants you to fight some fights, but he wants you to make sure there's some good fights. And Paul looks at his son and he goes, hey bud, you got what it takes. Fight the good fight. And then dude, I love it so much. 2 Timothy, it's the last book Paul writes before he dies. And the last thing Paul says is he goes, hey buddy, do you know what I did? I'm getting ready to die. You know what I did? I have fought the good fight. Wow. And he's passively, he's going, hey bud, just do what I did. I walked with you so that you could do what I did. So that's why we called the series Fight the Good Fight. We want men and women of God to rise up in the Spirit of God and fight some good fights. All right, now let me fast fact some things about Timothy. He's honestly one of the most underrated characters of the New Testament, in my opinion. So first of all, number one, Paul meets Timothy in Lystra in Acts 14. This is so hardcore.
I love this so much, dude. This is the kind of thing, like, It's the glory of sermon prep. I never noticed this stuff until this week. All right, so first missionary journey in Acts 14, Paul goes into Lystra. That's where he gets stoned. Now listen, actually, I want to know what you think about this. Maybe you, if you know what I'm talking about, you'll know what I'm talking about. He's judging Paulsy. He's judging Paulsy. Okay, so you're probably having an idea. You know your Bible.
Bible. You know what this is, bro?
By the way, you should have heard Chad GPT. He told me the biggest burn. He's like, we're, you know, arguing a little bit, and he's like, bro, you have no idea how many times I could have corrected you before.
Well, because his whole thing was, I'm gonna ask you questions you can't answer. And I was like, I did not. So I was like, I might have to turn the tables.
Every now and then I'm talking and I'll see his mouth twitch, and I'm always like, Oh my God, crap. I said something wrong, I bet. That's hilarious. All right, well, let's keep going. So, all right, so that's where Paul gets stoned and it says left for dead, but the Greek is ambiguous. There are a lot of Bible scholars that think that Paul actually died and was resurrected. So we don't want— I don't want to dwell on this. I'm just— true, false. Did Paul die and was resurrected, or was he left for dead? And they think he was left for dead. Left for dead. Do you have a theory? I'm open.
No, I just— I'm open to— he could have died. Me too.
I got— I got— no, I could have.
I don't want to say like he did. He could have. I just think he—
from what I understand, the Greek's ambiguous.
So either way, either But what do I know? You know, because, you know, I'm not sure. What do you know? I'm kidding.
There's like 10 jokes that ran through my head right there, and all of them were inappropriate. Okay, so I used a filter. We got Bible verses for that. So, and Jana keeps telling me, use your filter more often. Okay, so, uh, he gets stoned alive for dead. Now, this is what I never noticed. So Timothy would have been in Lystra the first missionary journey, watched Paul get stoned, and either killed or left for dead. And then on the second missionary journey, Timothy goes, "I want to follow that guy." So I just want to say, dude's got some stones. I probably should have used the— that's where you should have used my filter. He's got some courage in him.
He's got stones on the brain because he was stoned. That's all that was.
That's all I was talking about.
That's what I was talking about.
Thank you. Thank you for saving me. So what you got there? So he signs up to join him. A common theory is that Timothy actually got saved on Paul's first missionary journey.. And then on the second missionary journey, which was like a decade later, if I understand correctly, then he decides to join him. So that's first fast fact number one. Fast fact number two about Timothy. Timothy is apparently courageous, but also cautious. So you're going to notice all throughout 1 and 2 Timothy. So he was that kind of guy who is honestly like me, man. I can have a tendency to move toward conflict sometimes, and it doesn't bother me if I need to do that kind of thing. But then there's also a thing in me where sometimes I'm second-guessing, should I? Did I do that right? Timothy was apparently like that. One of the most frequent things Paul encourages Timothy are things like this. Hey buddy, you have not been given a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power, of love, and of a right mind. Okay? So he's constantly— Timothy apparently had this thing where he's like, hey, I'm young. I'm going to get to this in a second.
I'm young. I think I got it. But he had this thing, and I'll just gently say this. This encouraged me. The most— you guys may experience this sometimes. One of the most frequent things people will tell me, they'll grab me in the lobby and they'll be like, "Hey, Pastor Josh, we're praying for you that you stay humble. As always, we're praying for you to stay humble." And first of all, thank you. Thank you. But I will just gently say, Jana knows this, my biggest struggle is not always humility, it's confidence. And very few people, only the people who know me the best, They text me, "Hey man, I'm praying that you stay confident." I'm praying. So it just, I love that Timothy's spiritual dad was like, "Hey buddy, you stay courageous." That's good. You stay courageous. All right, fast fact number 3, Timothy was the best disciple Paul ever made and he said so. So this is interesting. Paul, in my opinion, Paul is the best disciple of Jesus. That's my opinion. I think Paul's the best disciple of Jesus in the New Testament. Timothy was the best disciple of Paul. I say this from Philippians 2:20.
Paul says about Timothy, "I have no one else like him." It's interesting. So it seems like Paul was like, "That's the best disciple I ever made." Okay. We know that, fast fact number 4, Timothy had a Jewish mom and a Greek dad. So we know, I'm going to get to this more in a second. Timothy came from a broken home, almost certainly a fatherless home, definitely a spiritually fatherless home. We know that from context clues. People usually miss it. I'll talk about that here in a second. So man, I do just want to say this and encourage you. If you're a dude or a young woman that grew up in a broken home, no dad, this, one of the greatest disciples in the entire New Testament came from a house like you. Yeah. God can redeem it. In the absence of the ideal, grace abounds. So you see this right here. Now I'll just say this real quick. I think Paul saw that in Timothy, Jewish mom, Greek dad, Gentile dad. And I think Paul went, that will be super helpful. It's kind of like if you're playing baseball, if you got a guy that's a switch hitter, he can go righty or lefty.
It kind of doesn't matter. Is a righty or lefty pitching? He can kind of go either way. That kind of thing. I think he was like, hey dude, this would be helpful because sometimes Paul was preaching the gospel to Greek Gentiles and sometimes Paul was preaching the gospel to Jewish people and the angle at which he took the gospel was different. And I honestly think he looked at Timothy and he was like, hey Tim, hey little Timmy, honestly, this is going to help me out, bud. Thank you. You're going to help translate the gospel here. All right, now you got anything? You going to say something? No, no, no. Let me keep going. Fast fact number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Fast fact number 5. This is very intimate and and it relates to the next thing. Oh, sorry. I just know where you're going. Yeah. You know where I'm going. Paul personally circumcised Timothy in Acts chapter 16. I had a circumcision joke, but it was really long and I would've had to cut off the end of it. So let me just— we may have to edit that out later.
I'll just add at the end of this. No, we're not going to cut it. It's okay. Oh, okay. We're going to keep it in.
I can't look at Isaac.
But get to the point. Get to the point.
All right. All right. That was what didn't make it into the sermon. That's a joke. You can— I'm just gonna keep going. Cut to the chase. All right, let me keep going. Let me keep going. All right. I'm like sweating now. All right. So the reason for this, it's actually interesting, is— come back to the center. Come back to the center. The reason for this is that I would— Okay, the reason for this is— so what's interesting is Paul had another— he had another traveling companion.
What's crazy is even if we cut it, people are going to come back to the video.
Literally sweating. He had another— what's interesting about this is biblically significant. It really is. Paul had another traveling companion named Titus who was also not circumcised. And what's— Carlos, hey, hey man, grow up. I'm with you.
Just focus on— I'm back. I'm back.
What's interesting is he didn't make Titus get circumcised, but he did have Timothy be circumcised.
And if I'm Timothy, I'm like, what the crap, bro?
You got to be kidding me. What? Which, by the way, in all seriousness, it shows you how sold out to the mission Timothy Timothy was. In all seriousness, it shows you how sold out to the mission Timothy was. The reason for this was— Carlos, you got to have a drink. You need a drink of coffee, by the way, for people who are drinking and not watching.
Hey, you know what? I got some control. Let's go. All right. All right.
The reason for this was every time Paul was preaching the gospel to Jewish people, even though in the new— this is a whole covenantal theology thing. For the Bible nerds, I'm going to have 60 seconds of Bible nerd moment. There's continuity and discontinuity between the old covenants and the new covenants. Both the old covenant and the new covenant have a covenant symbol. In the old covenant, the sign of the covenant was circumcision. In the new covenant, the sign of the covenant is baptism. There's a whole book of the Bible that we're going to preach through in 2027 called Galatians, where Paul is explaining the discontinuity and continuity between the old covenant and the new covenant. And his whole thing is, hey man, circumcision is of no value anymore.
Yeah. Okay.
So even though under the new covenant sort of era, Timothy didn't have to be circumcised theologically, missionally for the sake of evangelism, it was like a hurdle for Jewish people to receive the gospel from a guy like Timothy because they were like, you're disrespecting our scriptures. So for the sake of that, Paul has him circumcised. Now I will point this out. It is like, wow, I never thought about that. Paul personally circumcised him. Yeah. So there was a high level of intimacy in this relationship, obviously appropriate, but it was like these dudes, they knew each other. Fast fact number 6, Timothy is a young buck. He's a young dude. 1 Timothy 4:12, that's the passage, "Let no one look down on you because you are young, but set an example in all these things." Most Bible scholars assume that Timothy would've been in his late teens when Paul first takes him on his journey. So honestly, man, when you think Timothy, think 18, 20 years old, that kind of thing. I will just say this, if you're younger, this is the old J.C. Ryle quote, "What does Satan say to you when you're young? You're too young to serve God.
It's too soon to serve God. What does Satan say to you when you're older? It's too late to serve God." So man, if you're younger, I would just say this, it does not matter how old you are. You do not have a JV Holy Spirit. Get a vision for your life that is massive. Ask yourself the question, what would I attempt with my life if I knew it could not fail because God was with me? And then attack that with a ferocity previously unknown to mankind. So get a vision for your life. Okay? So he's young. We know that. He's very young. Okay. Fast fact number whatever. Timothy apparently had some medical problems. I think I'm on number 7. Apparently had some medical problems. We know in, I think it's also 2 Timothy. Paul tells him, "Hey man, drink just a little." He says a little, drink a little wine. You got some stomach problems, sorry Baptists, well, whatever it is, just a little wine, stomach ailments, do your thing. I think the Greek says grape juice for the Baptists. That'll help the Baptists. So he does that. We know he had some kind of medical problems had to do with his stomach.
Fast fact number 8, and then we're going to land on number 9. This is honestly, this is what led to the biggest part of the sermon. There was a very significant part of the first 6 verses of Timothy, 2 Timothy are devoted to Timothy's family. He had a seemingly broken family. So this is what it says. I'm just going to read it. It's awesome. And it is a shadow that something not awesome was also a part of Timothy's life. So here's what it says. Paul says, I am reminded of your sincere faith, of faith that first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice. By the way, I love this. Mm-hmm. What was behind one of the greatest disciples in the entire New Testament? A praying grandma and a praying mama. That's right. I love it so much, man. So I will just say, if you are a single mama, so here's what I'm driving at. What's interesting is the faith of Timothy's grandma and mom are mentioned and not a word about dad. Yeah, we never hear a word about dad. What Bible scholars assume is either, like Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 7, that abandonment from an unbelieving spouse was a biblically legitimate reason for divorce.
A lot of Bible scholars assume that in 1 Corinthians 7, Paul is commenting on a situation like the mom's name was Eunice, like Eunice may have experienced where maybe imagine what if she got saved during Paul's first missionary journey, then her unbelieving husband is like, hey dude, I'm actually kind of not in on all of the disciple of Jesus stuff. And over time he leaves, 'cause Timothy's dad is never mentioned here. So that leads me to fast fact last, number 9. In one of the most glorious turns of the entire New Testament, the Apostle Paul becomes what theologians have historically called Timothy's spiritual father. You study your New Testament, it's really interesting. There's tons of disciples of Paul, there's only 3 dudes that he refers to as sons: Timothy, Titus, and Onesimus. He refers to them as sons. In fact, I'm just going to read it to you right here. In verse 2, he addresses the letter to Timothy, my beloved child. And then for the rest of Timothy's life, Timothy just goes, you know what, man? I didn't have a dad that showed me how to follow Jesus. And so what he did, he did what Josiah That's what I did is he went, you know what?
I'm going to find a spiritual father. I'm going to make that man my spiritual father. I'm going to get up real tight up to him. And then Paul becomes his spiritual father. Now let me stop right there. You guys got anything you want to add to Timothy, 2 Timothy stuff before we talk spiritual fatherhood real quick?
I just want to highlight what you said, Pastor Josh. That's a good word. I think when I see your story, for example, you are a third generation pastor. You have amazing dad, come from an amazing lineage. Uh, that's just not the norm today. I think it's a statistic, it's 1 out of 4 boys are growing up in a fatherless home today. It's hard, it's hard. It's higher.
Yeah, sorry, fatherless generation. The, the— if I looked it up recently for a men's conference I did, it's somewhere around 40% of children in America are no longer growing up with two married biological parents in the home.
So most people are probably listening, especially younger men, are listening to this and they're asking, man, can God use me? Like, you know, when I see Pastor Josh, when I see these great men God can God use me? The answer is yes, he can. Yes, he can. Like, you, uh, you are called, you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you are empowered to create a new legacy. Another thing that I think is really cool, and I love this, uh, this is 1 and 2 Timothy, is one of my favorite books, uh, both of them. Um, you again, it's this— Paul is constantly saying, hey, uh, Timothy, do not be afraid. That's right. Uh, don't let anybody— you mentioned this— don't let anybody look down on you because you're young. He's constantly saying, uh, fan into flame. Like, basically He's trying to cheer him up, uh, and you can tell there's a couple fears. And yet the spiritual father sends his spiritual son to do, uh, go to the most difficult churches, uh, the most dysfunctional churches, Corinth, uh, Thessalonica. Uh, these are huge tasks. Um, and, and again, there's this idea that whatever God has called you to do, it will not happen because of your own strength or capacity.
It'll happen, uh, actually God's going to give you a task that's going to feel impossible to you on purpose so that when it happens, you will know it's not me, it's God. Through me. And so I think that's just a great reminder. That's right, man.
So good, man. I don't know where you're going, so I'm gonna be careful because I feel like I might accidentally step on some of the things you were going on. But man, because obviously, and you've already mentioned this, man, if you're a young person and you don't have that person in your home and you don't have that father figure, part of what we're asking to do is to seek it out. That's exactly why we want you in church. That being said, also I would say this is that, man, speaking to some of the older men in our church or in the churches where you're listening from, is like, man, Paul actually sought Timothy out. He saw Timothy and wanted to take him under his wing. So we also need Pauls to go seek out Timothys who may not have that father figure in their home right now. So man, I would just encourage you, man, obviously go where God is leading you, but I'd say like, man, this is why we need great godly men in kids ministry, student ministry, leading groups of young adults here at Lake Pointe, serving with Rooted and getting in Rooted groups and leading those.
'Cause there's a lot of guys who are growing up without a spiritual father figure in their homes. And one of the beautiful things about the body of Christ is he can ask us to step into that and be that for them. So just an encouragement I wanted to give some of the older That's—
I mean, you just nailed it, man. I mean, it's— so here's— yeah, we want to talk about that. You want to talk about— does that— we want to do—
yeah, yeah. Uh, are you done with the 9 facts? Yeah. Okay, so let's, uh, let's ask the question: how do you find a spiritual father or a spiritual mother? And, uh, after that, we're going to be asking, how do you, uh, become one?
Yes. Yeah, let me talk about this real quick. Let's riff on this. So first of all, um, I think I'll just say it like this: if your age starts starts— let's use Timothy and Paul as an example. If your age starts with a 2, 3, or a 4, you need to go get one. If your age starts with a 5, 6, or a 7, you need to be one. There you go. So that's just— I mean, every age and stage of life, you can do this thing. But just in general, just lay it down like that. If your age starts with a 2, 3, or a 4, go get one. If your age starts with a 5, 6, or a 7, you need to be one. And now what's interesting, I'll just— if you're breaking it down, I'm going to show a picture of him here in a second. I was blessed to have my biological dad also be a spiritual father. I also have had men throughout my life that in addition to my dad were spiritual fathers alongside of my dad, if that makes sense. And I'm going to show one of them here in a second.
But if you kind of notice, if you watch Paul, there's really— actually, let me talk about getting one first. So here's, if you're a younger guy, here's what you need to do. First of all, what you don't need to do is— there's a difference between information and impartation. You can get information anywhere you want, anywhere you want, man. The precepts of God tell you what to do. It takes the people of God to show you how to do it. So what you need, man, is here's what you do. And I say this all the time. What you don't do is you don't Don't get addicted to TikTok influencers, IG influencers, YouTubers, and let them become the people who drive your life. Let me shoot you straight. Here's the reason for that. Because anybody can curate an image on those things. And by the way, you know nothing. You know nothing about their family. You don't know how happy their wife is. Are their children thriving? Do their kids love Jesus? How many generations deep do you see discipleship in their life? What does their friendship look like? They can hide all that stuff and just present on that thing.
And I will just say this, man. What some people do, especially younger people, my generation down, is what they'll do is they'll kind of go like, oh man, that's not influencing me. It's just entertainment. It doesn't influence me. Well, wait a second. They're literally called influencers. For a reason. For a reason. So what Jesus said, Sermon on the Mount, is he said, hey man, if your eye is good— actually, it wasn't Sermon on the Mount. He said, if your eye is good, then your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body's going to be of darkness. What he's saying is if you want to change the outcomes of your life, you got to change the inputs into your life. The biggest input that will change your life is if you go find a spiritual father or a spiritual mother. So here's what I tell you to do, and then I want to hear what you guys say, and I want to talk about being one. Here's what I tell guys to do at LifePoint all the time. So there's that verse that says, God has given you everything you need for life and godliness.
Here's a dumb thing smart Christians believe. They think that verse is talking to an individual you. Hey Paul, you have been given everything you need for life and Godliness. No, no, no. That verse was not written to a person. It was written to a church. And we can't see this in English. In Greek, the you is plural. So you individually do not have everything you need for life and Godliness. No, no. You as a church have everything you need for life and Godliness. What you need, Paul, to grow up into the full measure and stature of Christ Jesus, you don't got it all. It's in other dudes in the church whose ages probably start with a number, 1 or 2 digits higher than your age, that they've been walking with Jesus for a couple more miles than you. And then what you need to do is book of Proverbs. What's the first thing we do about wisdom? You go get it. So if you're a younger guy, here's what you do, man. You walk in a church. I say this all the time. You walk in a church, church and you come 15 minutes early.
It doesn't matter what church you're going to. You come 15, 20 minutes early, you stand in the back, and here's what you're watching for. You're watching for some guy whose age starts with a 5, 6, 7, or 8. He walks in with his wife on his arm. His wife looks happy. She's smiling. They usually get there early. They walk in arm in arm. They sit down, and then you stay in the back. Stay in the back. Watch that guy. You're looking for the guy who— they walk in, they open their Bible, they're sitting there, they're worshiping, they got their hands in the air. They clearly love Jesus. Physically, you're looking for them like he's got his arm around her. They're a little handsy during the service, even though their age starts with 5, 6, 7, or 8. They can't keep their hands off each other. They love each other. And here's what you're watching for a guy whose wife is happy. They love Jesus. The wife is happy. Then you do your little homework and you find out, whoa, that guy has kids that love Jesus and love him. And then what you do is as soon as you find that couple, you walk up to them and you say something like this.
You say, hi. Hi, my name is Josh. You seem good at marriage and we are bad at marriage. Can we take you out to lunch and ask you questions about how to be good at marriage? And then you take notes on what they say and then you do it. But basically you just seek them out and you're like, hey man, download it to me. Download it to me. That's great. But the difference between people who become great disciples and great men or great women is usually who had a spiritual father or a spiritual mother and who did not. Anything else you guys would say on if you're the younger guy or younger girl on seeking it out?
I feel like you did a great job at this.
Yeah, I think—
Yeah, you're amazing at this. Awesome. Amazing.
More often than not, discipleship is caught, not taught. Yes. So when we talk about discipleship, we usually think, and it is, there's a sense of which discipleship is where you learn something from somebody else. And so you're receiving knowledge or information that eventually will result in transformation in your life. That is true. But when you look at the discipleship you find in scripture, it more so— it's like a, hey, let's do something together and you watch me do it, and let's move into the same direction. And so what I would say, uh, very practically, similar to what you said, Pastor Josh, you find a local church. Yes. You find a group of people that are doing something that you think, I can be a part of whatever they're doing, uh, and then you go to those people and you say, say, how can I help? And I got time. I'm here. I'm not asking something from you. I'm trying to help you do whatever it is you're already doing. And then I'm not asking you to make room for me in your schedule. I'm asking you to include me side by side next to you in your schedule.
Um, and then you do that, you help, you're helpful, and then you just literally like learn around you. So by spending time with people that are older and godlier, what you do is, yes, there's a time for you to ask questions, and obviously that's important, but really, man, you just like open your eyes and then just observe. Oh, that's how they, you know, he talks to his wife. Oh, that's how he loves his children. I could do that too with my wife, or I could, you know, and so, uh, and then you just do it over and over again. So you join a mission, move in the same direction, and, uh, ask, how can I help?
That's it, dude. Good. Only other things I'd add is, man, let's say if they tried that and they have struggled, I'm like, then find a guy who knows the guy. It's like, I don't always— like, even just think of like, if I need to fix something at my house, I may not know someone, but I know people who know the people. And so in the same way, when you go into a church, man, this is a great thing if you're not very well connected yet, or you just, whatever reason, reason, man, go to your pastors and just say, here's what I'm looking for. Can you point me in the right direction? Then you're going to have to take some ownership. And I'll get to that in a second. But I'd say like, yeah, just find the person who knows the person. I see you do this all the time when you're in the lobby. So people come up to you and sometimes they want prayer, but sometimes they're looking for advice or counsel and you'll give them some initial stuff. But all the time I'll see you grab another staff person. And that's our job as staff as part of it is we're trying to connect them to the people that they can help them take their next steps.
And by the way, this is not a random plug. Like we're trying to help you text SERVE to 20411. This is literally what we do. We just, we help you find where you can best serve alongside other mature, godly believers that can help you in your life.
And that's funny because that was going to be another tip I gave in a minute is, man, if nothing else, if you're like, I'm having trouble finding people, start serving. Put yourself in places where you're more likely to find those people and eventually you're going to find them. But I will say this. Bro, that's huge.
What you just said, fish in the right pond. Yes. All the best disciples, they're serving in ministry. They're leading somewhere. Honestly, here's where they usually are. They're leading a life group. They're leading a Rooted group or there's this— I'm talking about dudes especially. They're serving in kids and students. Students. Yes. I'll just say that one more time. They're leading a life group, they're leading a Rooted group, they're serving in kids and students.
And the reason for that is because the mark of a parent biologically is they do what? They reproduce. That's right. So the mark of a spiritual parent is that they reproduce. So go find people in those environments who are doing that. Those are going to be the people that are generally more mature. I will say, just as a final encouragement, is that, man, that means that you're going to have to put yourself out there. Yes. Right. And so now this isn't true, I know, of every church, maybe the people who listen to us, but at a church like Lake Pointe, which I love our church, but if it's really of a big size, The easy default thing to do if you're not connected is just to slip in on a weekend. That's right. Attend, sit down, leave, and not talk to anyone. So I will say this means you are gonna have to put yourself out there, believe that God is going to put you with the right people, take a step and get connected.
Well, hey you guys, as you know, Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Christ, live free, and change the world for God's glory. But here's the thing, movements by definition move. So if you're not moving, then the question is, are you really being a part of the movement? In fact, somebody once said that too many churches are like football games, 22 people on the field in desperate need of rest, being watched by thousands of people in the stands in desperate need of exercise. Hey, listen, we refuse to be a church like that. And so if you call Lake Pointe Church your home church, and if you have not yet joined a serve team, I want to invite you to take your next step. Step right now. Text the word SERVE to 20411 and we'll help you find your spot where you can serve in person or online on whichever serve team you are being called to serve. Hey, thank you for being obedient to God's calling in your life and let's keep doing this together.
Yeah, let me give a— so I'll give an example of this. So we toss that picture up there real quick, not the video, the picture. So this is, this is me without a shirt on when I'm 16 and it's intentionally Dropped. So this guy, I'm just gonna, like that guy right there, that guy right there, his name is Jeff Carlisle. Jeff was my youth pastor, former military guy. When I was 16 years old, that's right around the time, I'm one of those guys, dimmer switch, not light switch salvation. I'm like, how did you get saved when you were younger, when you were 16? I think when I was younger, but Jeff, when I was 16, he was like, hey man, can I disciple you? And so every day after school, I'd hop off the bus until I got a driver's license and I would walk. I would walk. It was about 2 miles over to church. I'd stop by O'Dellies and get a little sandwich and then walk over there. And Jeff would just study books of the Bible with us.
Not that burrito place that we went to?
No, not that place. No, this was in Bowling Green, Kentucky. Oh, okay. So Jeff Carl— and dude, I mean, that was it. Just discipled me from the time I was 16 till the time I went to college. And Jeff, my dad, my biological dad was my spiritual father, but I also had this guy. And dude, I will say this, man, all the best disciples, they always can tell you the names of the Christian men who invested in them when they were young. If you are— listen, this is not what this pod is about. If you are a parent, arguably the most important thing you can do is consistently put your kids in environments where they relationally and emotionally attach to other spiritually healthy adults. So that what that does is you're like tying little strings to people all over the world so that if your kids ever wanted to try to walk away from Jesus, they ain't just walking away from you. I would've had to walk away from my dad and from Jeff Carlyle and Mary Beth Carlyle and Tommy Johnson and the 5 other guys that discipled me and the coach I had that was a Christian.
So it was like, that's what happened with me. And dude, I'll just say this, that one guy, Jeff Carlyle, he's got outta the military, started studying the Bible, became a pastor, still a pastor. That one guy right there, I was saved under his ministry. I was discipled for 2 years. I was called to ministry under his ministry. That's the first guy that ever asked me to preach anywhere. Jeff Carlyle. How old were you? I was 16. He was like, hey dude, I see it in you. He's the guy who was like, I just, it was like a 10-minute thing. And when I was done, Jeff walked up and he was like, hey man, there's something on you. When you talk, people listen. It's the first guy to— I'm going to talk about that here in a second. First guy to ever ask me to preach, encourage me in it. And then that's the guy that set me up on the blind date with Jana. No way. Yes, dude. So listen to this. Out of one spiritual father, saved, discipled, called to ministry, asked to preach, got a wife out of the deal. Wow. That one spiritual father.
Now this is how— this is just like I'm giving you a vision of what's spiritual fatherhood looks like. So last week after the Sean Ryan episode dropped, earlier this week, one of the first people to text me, that dude hadn't been my youth pastor in, I don't know, how old am I? It's been almost 30 years. One of the first people to text me, toss up that text, Jeff Carlisle. He's like, literally as soon as the episode drops, my youth pastor that was my spiritual father from the time I was a 16-year-old, 16 years old, proud of you for how you represented on Sean Ryan's show. That had to be special. Amazing. That is a spiritual father. Yes. That's not just like a, oh, that's a volunteer. That's a spiritual father. Okay. Now let me just real quick do this little thing on what spiritual fatherhood— we want to talk about what spiritual fatherhood looks like. Yeah, let's do that. And then you're going to answer, are apostles still a thing today?
And then— Yeah. Any other—
because we said, how do you become one? If you just go find You got one?
Yeah, we got it. Great. And I will just say, plug, what you need to do, that's why we're pushing Rooted, the Rooted 10-week discipleship deal. So how do you find a spiritual father? Those guys, they're leading Rooted groups. So if you're at Lake Point, I love you, you are insane. Something is wrong with your brain if you are not moving into the Rooted, because guess who's leading those things? Spiritual mamas, spiritual daddies. That's right.
So if you want to join, text ROOT to 20411, we'll help you out. That's right.
At Lake Pointe. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'll just do this real quick and then we'll curb this thing. And then I want you to start talking about, are there apostles?
I keep thinking you're about to name drop people and I'm getting nervous.
I can't wait. And then we're going to try to stump Chachi Balti. It's going to be awesome, guys. Okay. So I'll just say this, if people are going, man, so what does spiritual fatherhood look like or spiritual motherhood look like? So let's say you're a mom. You're a Christian whose age starts with a 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and you're like, man, okay, I want to do that. 3 words: impartation, exhortation, affirmation. Okay, so impartation, that's follow. Paul says to Timothy, he goes, hey man, follow me as I follow Christ. It's not just information transfer, it's like hands-on. He's like, hey man, remember that time I laid my hands on you and we traveled together for all those years? So it's life on life. That's impartation. Exhortation is just, hey dude, do this, not that. I mean, the whole book is just him instru— here's how you be a godly man. And I will just say for spiritual fatherhood and spiritual motherhood, sometimes you're going to need to actually do some just mom and dad's, hey, here's how you make a budget. It's like, hey, nope, nope, don't try to get that mortgage. That's a bad idea with your income.
There's some stuff like that. So you got that exhortation, especially this young generation.
Hey, here's how you talk to a girl. Yeah.
Yes.
Here's how you tie ties. Yeah. Here's what you wear to a job interview. You're going to need some of that stuff. Okay. And then last one is just affirmation. And that's like Paul's stuff. Like, man, Timothy, I love you like a true son in the faith. The father says to the son, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. Now, So let me just wrap this up. So let me show you a physical example of this. Okay, so this is, you're gonna see all these, 3 of these things, impartation, exhortation, affirmation. Now heads up, I don't think either of you have seen this video. I'm gonna warn you right now, you ain't ready. I'm just gonna tell you right now, you ain't ready. So if you wanna see a visual representation of spiritual fatherhood in the biological, magical realm. Okay, so here's what you get ready to see. This is— this, uh, I caught this a few years ago and I saved it. It's an 11-year-old who's sitting in a stick shift truck with his dad in rural Utah. Dad's a military dad, and the dad is teaching his son how to drive a truck.
And I want you to watch for impartation, exhortation, and affirmation. Now your eyes are going to sweat. You ain't ready. Okay, watch This— keep the gas, keep the gas, keep the gas, keep the gas. There we go. Now we're going to, we're going to speed it up a little. Just— nope, keep where you're at. Keep on the gas, keep on the gas, keep on the gas. All right, ready? We're going to go clutch, off the gas, and push the clutch. Exhortation. Off the gas, push the clutch. Nice, guys. Go up to third. Up, over third. Now gas, even transition. Ready?
There you go, go, go, go!
Wait, wait, wait, you got it! Why? Keep going!
That's what I'm talking about right there! Keep going!
I love you guys! Love you, buddy! Keep going, keep going! So you got a car to your left.
All right, they're going straight. Keep going!
Keep giving it gas, keep giving it gas.
All right, now you just keep driving in a circle. You're good, dude.
All right, listen, if that don't make your eyes sweat, you don't got a pulse. But I want you to see, I want you to see, you saw 3 things. Exhortation: hey buddy, now's the time to shift. Clutch now. Hey, you got this, bud, just turn a little. Impartation: Impartation. I'm in the seat right next. He's putting his hand on his son's shoulder. Hey, let me help you turn it a little bit, bud. It goes like this. Hey, shift like this. Impartation. And then affirmation. You got this, bud. You got this. You're doing such a good job. And what you're going to notice is there's a thing that God has put in the heart of every man. When fatherhood touches his soul, it's like tears start to leak out of his eyes and the son just has it bubble out of him. I love you, Dad. I love you, Dad. And dude, I'll tell you this, I watched that video and I'm reading 2 Timothy and at one, I'm going, that right there is what your heavenly Father is like with you. And when you feel the love of the fatherhood of God, it's like love for the Father just bubbles out.
I love you, Dad, because you were touched by the fatherhood of God. But what's interesting is if you read 2 Timothy, it's just like such a visual illustration. You read 2 Timothy and in verse 4, Bible scholars, they debate this about what is he talking about? Paul just says to Timothy, he's like, "Hey buddy." He's talking to his spiritual son. He says, "Hey buddy." And he says, "As I remember your tears." And dude, this is really interesting. People debate, "I wonder what the tears were about." Everybody's got a theory. I got a theory. I think when Paul talks later about the moment when he laid his hands on Timothy and spoke a blessing over him and he's like, "You received this gift." through the laying on of my hands. There was a moment in little Timothy's life where his spiritual father, when he didn't have a physical father, put his hands on his spiritual son's shoulders, looked in his eyes, and he said, "Hey bud, you've got this thing in you. God did this in your life." I think Paul, as a spiritual father, is going, "In that moment, something broke open in your soul, just like it did in that kid's eyes." Tears start to flow.
Why? Why? Because the heart of a spiritual father erupts in the life of a spiritual son. I think that's what you're seeing right there. So those are the 3 things. What's it look like if you're going, hey dude, I want— It's great. If you're just going, I want to be this for somebody, and I got some guys in my life where I'm trying to do this thing, you're looking for those 3 things. Exhortation, do this, not that. Impartation, follow me as I follow Christ. Let's get up life on life. Come sit around the fire pit with me. Hey man, why don't you go? I do this a lot. Hey man, I'm preaching over in Virginia. Why don't you come with me? Hey man, just come with, come watch how I do it. Impartation, affirmation. Hey man, God's got something on your life. That is spiritual fatherhood.
That's a great word for spiritual fathers and also for biological fathers.
Yes. Amen. Amen.
Knowing how to handle yourself with your children.
Amen. That's great. All right, that's all I got. So good. Now here's what I want to do. Can we have a theological debate and ChatGPT solve it? It for us? Yeah. Okay, we're going apostleship. That's where we're going.
Speaking of laying on the hands.
Now what this passage does, so I want to talk about this. In the church today, this is a hard emotional gear shift. Yes, it is. I was like, I thought we were some church people. Let's Bible nerd out here for a second. We're going to Bible nerd out here for a second. So there is a word that's thrown around in the modern American church frequently, and it's used in a lot of different Always. And honestly, man, I think normal Christians will sometimes get confused. Hey, what does that mean? It's a word that's in 2 Timothy 1:1. Paul describes himself as, quote, Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise that is in Christ Jesus. An apostle of Christ Jesus. Now here's the question, ChatGPT. Yeah. Are apostles still a thing today? A lot of people do not realize this is happening to time, but it is. That word apostle, there's basically about 4 different views on what is an apostle. Are there still apostles today? Is that office still a thing? This is actually, I'll just let you take it from here, Paul.
Answer the questions for us. Yeah. A few things that I feel like it's helpful to set up and then I will walk us through the 4 views and I've even got a table for you. I know you love a table. Good table works hard. And I think this would be a good thing to, by the way, to show people so they can follow at home or you can go download it. I think we'll have it in guide, right, Carlos? That's right. First, let's talk about what the term apostle means. It literally just means one who is sent. Apostello is the Greek word verb for to send. So think Jesus says, as the Father has sent me, now I am sending, I am apostelloing you. An apostle is the one who is sent. So it simply means the one who is sent. Now often it's probably the thing that most people think of is that refers to the 12. Jesus's 12 disciples. Later Judas obviously takes his own life and is replaced by Matthias. We think of the Apostle Paul. So 13. Yeah. Also 13. Some of them would say from Galatians 1, you get James who seems to be referred to as an apostle as well.
So some people would say 13. Some people would potentially say 14.
I had never noticed that before.
Because it says in Galatians 1—
James, the brother of Jesus. Yeah.
Because he didn't see any of the apostles except for James. Interesting. So that's why some people would say 13, 14. I've never put that together. Okay. Yeah. But a lot of times people think of them, but also this word is used other places in the New Testament where it's not referring to those people. So for example, Philippians 2:25, I have thought it necessary to send you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and soldier, your messenger. The word is apostle, your apostle and minister to my need. He was an apostle to them because he is being sent by Paul. He is one who is sent by Paul. 2 Corinthians 8:23, as for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for your benefit. As for our brothers, they are messengers. That word literally is apostles of the churches. Now they are not they thought of, oh, these are people that are in the same par with Matthew and John and James. No, it just means these guys are being sent from the church where I'm coming from. They're coming to help. So what makes this tricky is this same word can be used in multiple ways.
But that being said, they're really with the debate over it.
When you say multiple ways, you're talking about office and function?
Yes. They can be used as an office or simply as a function. Oh, we're calling these people an apostle because I'm sending them to you. But when they read this, they wouldn't have thought, oh, they have the same authority as as Peter. They wouldn't have thought that. It's simply, oh, Paul is sending them. He called them apostle because he—
Because it was just a normal Greek word. Exactly. Okay. Got it.
And that's where there is— I was once taught by a professor who talked about how you got to think, especially in New Testament Greek, not just definitions, but usages. How is this word actually being used in this specific verse, in this specific context? That being said, the debate here is over, well, hey, are there apostles like Peter, like Paul that have more of a truly authoritative sense today? There's 4 views. Go ahead.
Let me just say, I'll just go and end it. —got a bit of an edge to it. I don't want to—
Go ahead and say where I was going to go.
You will sometimes, especially in more— I'll just kind of say it. And I love, dude, my charismatic brothers and sisters, some of my favorite people to hang out with. In some of the more hard charismatic circles, especially you get over in Oneness Pentecostal, you get into some of the NAR stuff that will maybe— I don't know if you're going to go there, but there are people who will refer to themselves as as Apostle Benny Hinn, or I don't know if he calls himself that, but does he? Does he call himself that? Somebody look that up. I don't know if he does, but you'll get people who are like, they— and it seems like they're using it as an office. Yes, as an office.
I literally went and watched a clip of a guy who basically compared himself to the Apostle.
Okay, that's important. We never want to say something false about somebody.
Now, other people may refer to him as that way, but he doesn't refer to himself that way. But I was watching a video of a guy the other day. I forget his name, but basically said, I'm an apostle like the Apostle Paul, bro. And I'm just going to go and say, we'll cut to the chase, 99,999 times out of whatever that it is, run, run. If you hear people say that, run.
I'm a little curious why you're not saying 100% of the time.
Because I feel like maybe somewhere out there there's someone I don't know that maybe they just don't know any better.
I don't know. No, dude, I'm going to say it 100% of the time.
Run and run run for the hills. Even if you can find a great tweet from them or something that sounds good, there is something in there that is not good. Run for the hills. So that's the question. There's 4 main views of this. Actually, we got a chart that I'll walk us through so we can keep this a little faster. All right, so there's 4 views. I'll say the views, and then I'll actually go through and really kind of get the positions and their arguments for them. So you have what's called a closed office view, and that's the idea that the office of apostle is done. Their authority now continues through the faithful reading and proclamation of the pastors. A second view is that it's a continuing office. As you said, a lot of times this is more in hyper charismatic circles, not all charismatic circles. That's right. I was actually reading in prep for this, the Assemblies of God, I think on their official website basically says, we do not see this as an open office. Oh, interesting. We see this, we'll get to this number 3. They see it as a continuing ministry.
Ministry of function. Yes, exactly.
Ephesians 5, apest, God has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers. Okay. So they see it as a continuing —continuing function and maybe almost a spiritual gifting, but not an office.
Missionary pioneers, church planters, people who can lead spiritual movements, but they would not say—
Explain the difference, Pastor Josh, like office and function. So how is it a function but not an office?
Yeah, so office would've been like, hey man, there's only, you know, New Testament, you have 13, unless you're counting James. By the way, I need to think about that really quick. So there were 13 dudes. Those are the apostles. Yes. There ain't 14, there ain't 15.
That's an office. That's an office. That's right.
These guys are the official of. And then a function would be, I'm sure you're going to get to this, how I will sometimes use it. And we may see this differently, but I'll kind of go, hey man, big A apostles is the office. Little a apostleship would be a spiritual gifting. Think of it like this.
Oftentimes the word apostle in this culture was used as an official representative of someone so that if they say it, it is if the person who sent them is saying it. They have the same, in a sense, level of authority as the sender. And so that's the idea is that as the apostle, was the 13 or 14 that we're talking about, as they were writing things, when people received it, it was as if the Lord Jesus himself had told them to do it. There was no wiggle room. So it was an office. You had to submit to them. Whereas we'll get to in a minute, that's not the case today. That's not the case today. So closed office, continuing office, continuing ministry, which is kind of the idea that, man, we don't have any official apostles, but some people have an apostolic gift of going and just like the early apostles, they would go as missionaries and they were spreading the word and they could start churches like the Apostle Paul kind of a thing. Then you have a fourth view that mainly the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, and that is apostolic succession.
And that's the idea that there's no apostles, but now their successors are bishops. So bishops, in a sense, carry the same authority. Oh, interesting. I actually didn't know that. In a sense. That's where even— so for example, when we talk about how sometimes Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would elevate tradition in addition to Scripture is because they would say the bishops, who basically are the ones who are creating that tradition, have the same level of authority ongoing.
So in the New Testament era, what would be the marks that made someone— oh, those are the marks. That's an apostle. Yes.
And I'm going back up. If you go to the closed office one, and again, it's really helpful if you watch this on YouTube or if you download it later in the guide, there's two qualifications for an apostle according to those who see this as a closed office. They were people who were eyewitnesses of the resurrection and they were commissioned by Christ specifically specifically to be apostles. So those are two big things. They saw Jesus risen from the grave and they were specifically commissioned by Christ to be an apostle. So even though the Apostle Paul did not see him before he ascended to heaven, he does see a vision of the resurrected Lord on the way to Damascus. And there's multiple places as Paul is writing later and talking later, he says, "The Lord Christ appointed me. He appeared and I saw him and he appointed me to be an apostle to the Gentiles." So those are the two big qualifications. Have you seen Jesus and have you been specifically commissioned by Jesus? We'll go ahead and cut to the chase and go ahead and tell people now. That's why if anyone says that they are an apostle of the same weight as Peter and Paul, I'd say, no, you are not.
So do you know the answer to this question?
In hyper charismatic circles, when somebody calls themself Apostle Sarah or whatever it is, do you know, are they claiming the same New Testament qualifications? Like, hey, the Lord appeared to me.
Or some of them would say something like that. Oh, I had a vision or something like that. Oddly enough, And this is, by the way, for clarity, in case you have not seen other episodes, we are not saying these people are Christians. We have said the opposite of that. This is frankly, if you read the early history of Joseph Smith and Mormonism, that is their thing. Oh, we had visions. And so in a sense, we're carrying this forward. We are prophets and apostles in the same kind of way. Again, we do not actually believe that they're Christians, for clarity.
But I will say, because you're saying if somebody is like self— basically self-proclaimed apostle, right? What I've heard, and I'm curious to hear what you guys think, I think, um, so Ephesians chapter 4, verse 11, you mentioned that Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, and teachers. So there's 5 different, I guess, functions, or, you know, or roles. Um, some, from what I know, some of these, uh, people here in some of those circles would say, well, we got pastors, Pastor Josh, we have evangelists, people that you have a specific unique function. Um, we have teachers, there's like the gift of teaching, uh, why not prophets or apostles? And, you know, prophets is a different conversation.
I would say, and I think you're on the same path, this is where you differentiate between office and function. So what I would say is, is the office— is the New Testament office of apostle still open? No, I do not think it was. I do not think it is. It is— in fact, it is not. And I want you to say— declared it. Yes, here in a second, I want you to say definitively why we know that office is closed. Those. But when Ephesians 4 does the— for Bible nerds who are listening, it is shorthand. People say, they'll talk about APEST, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers. He translated it pastors. I think that's the NIV or the ESV. Yeah, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers. I would say, yeah, all 5 of those are— those functions and gift sets are all still in effect. And here's how I'll define apostleship. And people will do different things here. What I would say, here's the best way to say it. I think pastors shepherd churches, apostles shepherd pastors. So you will, dude, you'll see it like in every generation. Like, you'll see guys who it's like they're a pastor, but then they kind of— there's these voices that God anoints where it's like, I call it convening power, I've heard it called, where there's, there's like a pastor that God raises up in his generation.
And honestly, there's usually a grace and anointing on his life. And it's like, for some reason, he's like a pastor whisperer. And all the other pastors, they start watching that dude and they're like, man, I'm following that guy. And there's something on that guy. Usually it's a very bold, courageous voice. Usually there's a lot of anointing. And here's, in my opinion, here's how you know that guy's got a grace or a gift of apostleship, little a apostle. I call it convening power. Pastors are hard to gather because they're busy and they're usually opinionated. So it's hard to gather Pastors, they kind of like to do their own thing a lot. Whenever there's a guy who is like, when he calls, a whole bunch of pastors are like, well, yep, I'm going to come do whatever that guy's doing. That's usually the sign of an apostle. The reason I, little a gift of apostleship. That's good. The reason I say that is, and honestly it reflects the New Testament. You get the Jerusalem Council, Acts 15. Yeah. Yeah. Acts 15, Jerusalem Council. One of the things you'll see in the apostles is, bro, when those apostles summon people, they coming.
Exactly. And so it's like pastors tend to— Christians tend to look to pastors. Pastors tend to look towards people with a gift of apostleship.
And then as Paul is taking that letter to the other places, he gives them— it literally says he basically is taking this letter from the apostles and the elders in Jerusalem. So it's like, hey, this is bearing their authority. So your thing, and then I'll be ready to kind of give you the two verses or two main points that say why we know this office is closed. One, I would tell people if they said, oh, but we see this as an ongoing function, Ephesians 4 is so clear. I'd say a couple things there. Number one, nowhere else in the New Testament do you see any instructions given for making successor apostles. What you do see is we're going to be going through 2 Timothy, 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. You get instructions for raising up deacons and elders and pastors. You get none for raising up other apostles, which the Apostle Paul is about to die. That's a good observation. Yeah. And the Apostle Paul is about to die. You'd think if he thinks that there should be his successor, successor, you think that he would say that? And with the qualifications of an apostle—
sorry, Catholics. Yeah, yeah, okay.
So, so to, to what Josh said, I think some of the people that I know that are in some of these circles would say we agree with that, that's why we call ourselves apostles. Um, so not so much that they're on par with like the Apostle Paul. And so, but you— and, and so you said that that's not what Paul said, but then they would point out to Ephesians chapter 4.
So which is the other thing I would go— well, a couple other things. I'd say throughout church history, why did no one use that term until last 100 years.
Oh, is that true? Yeah.
No, think about the early church. They, again, they would say, hey, we have bishops, they are this, they're their successors, but they never called anybody. Even think the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, John Calvin, none of them used that. Not until recently has anyone thought that we should use that term. So I always go back to this. A good reason, Mike, one reason we need to know history is I tell people, to be a good theologian or a good Bible scholar, you need to do theology historically. And if all of a sudden you're doing something that no one has ever done before, and if you're seeing something no one has ever seen before, it's probably because it's not there. And so that's one. And then with that is go back to Ephesians 2:20. It talks about how the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And Ephesians 3, it also talks about how this mystery has been revealed to the apostles and the prophets. There I would agree with you, it's talking about a designated group that is— you don't get the others. You're talking about the office. Exactly, the office.
So there you don't get the rest of those offices. In Ephesians 4, what you do. So I would say that, and it also talks about, think about it, Ephesians 2:20, it talks about how they are, is built on the found— they have laid the foundation. You don't lay a foundation multiple times. You lay it once. That's the point in Ephesians 2:20.
So for the people— which by the way, all the New Testament scriptures, now you get into Hebrews and some of these, but all the New Testament scriptures, one of the marks of anything that could be included in the canon was came came from or through an apostle or an amanuensis.
Exactly. Exactly.
So this is why, to your point, how you lay a foundation once, this is why the New Testament refers to the New Testament revelation as, quote, "once and for all delivered to the saints." By who? The apostles. The apostles. Exactly. The apostles. So I'm just noting what we're driving at for Bible nerd listeners is the closing of the office. Yes. Once and for all.
The other verse I was going to give, and to me this is just so clear that people forget, in 1 Corinthians 15, it talks about the resurrection of Christ and it says, he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he also appeared to me. Last of all, he also appeared to me.
Interesting. That's a good catch.
Yeah. And so I would just tell people, to your point, even if someone says, Well, we don't think of them this way, then I'd say, hey, that's great, but it's probably not wise to then call them an apostle because that's just going to lead to a lot of confusion. You may say they have an apostolic gift, but they are not an apostle. Those are two very different things.
What would you say to Carlos's objection that, hey man, if you go to Ephesians 4, you have apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers. Why is it okay for people to call themselves teachers, evangelists, shepherds, and pastors, They're not apostles.
I would have a little bit more of a different nuanced view of yours. And specifically around Ephesians 4, to me, that's where if I go through all the book of Ephesians, in Ephesians 2, it says apostles and prophets only once for all. Ephesians 3, mystery of salvation is given to apostles and prophets. When you get to Ephesians 4, if you've read those two and you already know who he's talking about, that's a once for all office. When he says that, it talks about when Christ ascended into heaven, he gave gifts to his church. It says apostles and prophets. If I've already read twice that those were just two groups and I know who they are, when I read that, I'm not going to think, Oh, there's new people as well. I'm gonna think these are the people he's already referred to. And these other three offices— think about them: evangelists, pastors, teachers— those are offices that we do get further information about in the rest of the New Testament.
Interesting. Yeah. Can I push back? Push back.
I mean, I'm just reading the— I'm just reading the verse here. So again, I'm just going to read it again. Verse 11, uh, and he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, and teachers to— so, uh, here's why we receive those, uh, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. I see your point, but then the question would be, um, it doesn't seem like that's— it seems like it's an ongoing process, that we are not there yet, therefore we have all these different roles.
Yeah, so a few things there. What about that, Paul? I'm basically going to restate a lot of what of what I've already said, which is, again, if I'm reading Ephesians and it talks about how the apostles and how the prophets have laid down the foundation of the church, I don't relay it twice. And guess what I have of theirs that I get to keep in order to keep that foundation solid? The scriptures.
So you would say, Paul, uh, you wouldn't agree with anybody calling themselves a prophet or apostle. You're only okay with the evangelist, the shepherd, and the teacher.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because, because—
and also, as far as what they call themselves, and this is—
yeah, I would— do you think the giftings exist?
Yeah. But don't— hey man, let's just not call ourselves that.
If you told me, Paul, I had the gift of prophecy, man, that's amazing that God gave you that gift. Hey Paul, I'm a prophet. Mm. Because the second you call yourself a prophet— in the Old Testament, people who were prophets and true legitimate prophets only spoke the oracles of God and words from God, and that's all they spoke. So you're telling me that everything you're going to tell me is 100% true all the time?
Yeah. And they wouldn't say that. That.
Yeah. But that's my point. The second you say that, it introduces confusion. Because if I'm in your church and you call yourself an apostle, to disobey the apostles in the New Testament is to disobey the Lord. And so with that, I'd say my thing is, again, I'd say, hey, why did the early church have the same book of Ephesians, but none of them came to the same conclusion? That's the other thing I'd ask.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah. Well, let me do one last one. Let me do one last one. Hey Paul, are you—
is this the St. Paul moment?
No, I'm going Let me give you one. Hey Paul, what about Junia? Oh, are you going to Junia? Paul, what about Junia? Now we can't let ourselves devolve into an entire women in ministry. We need to give a whole podcast.
That's bold for you to bring up Junia right now.
We need to have a whole podcast on that at some point. But Paul, this I'm putting on my stump Chatsheet Paul tee. But Paul, the verse says, what's the specific verse? Can you look it up real quick?
16, I believe verse 7. Yeah. Greet Andronicus. Yeah, yeah.
But what book and chapter? Sorry. Yeah. Romans 16:7. But Paul, it says, "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been imprisoned with me. They are outstanding among the apostles." So Paul, obviously you have two more apostles and one of them's a woman.
Yes. Okay. So a few things here. One solution that some people give that I don't really think is that great. So I just tell people, stop using this, is they say, well, hey, Junia actually could be a masculine name. It could be a dude. Junius. Junius. Yeah, I've seen that. Most scholars, including conservative scholars, no longer hold that. So I'd say to me, there's two very, very plausible— Why were you laughing?
No, it's just interesting. Yeah.
So that's the thing that I've heard thrown around before, but honestly, most scholars don't hold that. So two very plausible explanations here. One is, as I've said, apostle is not always only used—
Yes, this is the important part.
—of people who were like the capital A apostles. I just earlier gave those references to people who talked about they were messengers. Also past, and we didn't go through the rest of the table and we don't need to, we're short on time, I think. But after the time of the New Testament, the word apostle was sometimes used of missionaries. And so it could be that this, I think of this as maybe potentially a married couple who kind of like Priscilla and Aquila, they may have been more of a broadly based used word of apostles, meaning messengers or missionaries. Missionaries. There's another potential explanation, but I want you time in. What are we doing?
I'm just trying to unlock and load into, you know, wait, no, because yeah, because okay, so Paul, you just told me that you're against people using— and by the way, I'm not defending, this is not me like advocating for people to call themselves apostles at all, by the way, just to clarify. Um, uh, but I'm curious because you mentioned it, you said, wait, so you shouldn't call yourself apostles because in the Bible an apostle, somebody is like the the Apostle Paul. You just said that the Bible uses the same word to mean different things.
What about that, Paul? What about that, Paul?
He's helping me hype me up. Let's go! Chopping at the bit over there.
Yeah, so you're okay with the Bible using the word for to mean different things, but you're not okay for today?
If we want to refer for the function, I'm becoming a broken record on this, but again, I go back to, hey, if for two—
he's like, he's like, let me just once again explain it to you.
Like, I'm gonna warn you, I'm gonna be with Paul on this one.
Back to this is that, yeah, they had that and they had this different sense for it. But number one, we are not speaking ancient Greek, we are only speaking English, and so we should be careful the words we use. And number two, you're trying to say it's like, if for almost 1,900 to 2,000 years people did not use that title to breed confusion, why should we? I'll put it this way: it's not on me to give you reasons why we shouldn't, it's on you to give me reasons why I should.
Oh, what about that, Carlos?
Because it's a Bible word. It's a Bible word. Well, but again, why did everybody have the same—
History is not my highest authority Bible-ish.
Here's a good question people ask sometimes: if everyone who's had the same Bible for 2,000 years but came to a different conclusion for 2,000 years, it's on you to make an overwhelming case of why we should change and not me.
Well, it's not everybody because clearly you gave different views, so some people disagree with you.
All right, okay, final comments. We're going to talk about this thing, you know, final comments for sure. Yes, on the Junia thing. Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And then I want to talk about this this thing that went stupid viral that's actually the opposite of healthy fatherhood.
This is fun, by the way. You said you were going to try to stump me and I've prepped for the wrong test. I thought you were coming with different stuff. And so this is fun to put me on the spot. Although I did think you were going to go to Junia. So one is potentially they could be— these are people that are known as people who were sent, potentially missionaries. A second one, and this is way more grammatical, and I would tell people there's a good article written by a couple guys named Buerer and Wallace, B-U-E-R-E-R and Wallace. Maybe you could put it in the show The Word of God, where they go into it. So there's different, what's called casings or declensions in ancient Greek. You have genitive, you have dative, accusative, and nominative. I'm not going to go into all the things. We'll wrap it up. What they have shown is that sometimes this word famous or known by, it can mean that they are among that group, or it can mean known that they are famous because that group knows them. Yeah. And what they've shown, for example, there's a place where it talks about how Aphrodite is famous among mortals.
It doesn't mean that she's immortal. It means that the mortals know her. And the specific use right here, the specific Greek that is used here is more in the case where it is that they are known by them, not that they are known among them. Does that make sense?
It is. That's as simple as I can get it in a short time. First of all, let me just say for listeners on what I'm about to say, I'm like 99.99% sure all three of the guys at the table are on the same page. So let me just put a bow on this thing. The reason I bring up that passage, and someday honestly we will do a quick Women in Ministry, pod, because that's a question people have.
Yeah. Comment below if you want it and if that's helpful for people. Yeah.
Honestly, if you don't, then we won't. But if you're like, yeah, do that episode, then we will do it. But the reason what we're talking about right now, and then we're going to talk about this thing that went viral from the New York Times thing. The reason this is important is people use that verse all the time on Andronicus and Junia to essentially jump to the conclusion that the New Testament is invalidating the concept of any gender distinctions in leadership in the local church. And I'm going to shoot you straight, man. It's going to take a pair of scissors to get the concept of gender distinctions in leadership of the church out of the Bible. 100%. It's going to take a pair of scissors. So I think all three of us have a very firm conviction around what's known as complementarian views of church leadership, that God has placed the primary burden of responsibility for the primary leadership of the local church on biblically qualified men, especially in the role of at least of senior pastor and elders at least. But the reason I point out that verse is people use the unclear ambiguous verse about Junia, quote, "being famous among the apostles," to jump to the conclusion that there you go, that invalidates all gender distinctions.
And the obvious response to that, which if we do a Bible Nerd Women in Ministry podcast, we'll talk about this. The obvious response to that is, hey man, we don't take one unclear verse and use it to uninterpret like 100 clear ones. We don't do that. Exactly. That's a great point. Are you finished being a heretic and skeptic? Hello, man.
It's my job to ask questions.
Let's finish with this, because when I was studying for this, talking about spiritual fatherhood, this video went like stupid, insane viral. And the reason I want to respond to this is it is emblematic of thinking that is far more prevalent and far more influential in our culture than people realize that it is. Okay, so let me set this up real quick. What you're about to see is honestly, it's becoming one of my favorite podcasts now. I think he's moving over to 60 Minutes, but Ross Douthat, who's been at the New York Times for— he's like the only conservative at the New York Times. It's like people call him Lonely Ross over there. He has a podcast called— I can't remember what it's called actually. I've watched it quite a few times. He had a guy that's a Yale. So here's who you're about to see. This guy's a Yale law professor. So this, and he was at Harvard and Columbia University before this. Guy's name is Samuel Moyn. So just before we see this, what you're about to see, this is not like fringe thinking, like, oh, this is some way out there lunacy. This is like the person that's training the most prominent legal minds in our nation.
And so what you're about to see is they're having a conversation. Conversation about voter representation in the American system. And the question comes up, well, what about— aren't children in America— isn't that— they need to be represented in the voting system somehow. Okay. Now I'm just going to point this out real quick. What you're going to notice is a theme that is very, very prevalent. And the theme is this, is is that primarily progressivism, but not only progressivism, it is the demonic reverse image of Malachi 4:6. So Malachi 4:6 says that what the Spirit of God does, the Holy Spirit, is he turns the hearts of the children to the fathers and the fathers to the children. What unholy spirits do is they turn the hearts of the fathers against the children and the hearts of the children against the fathers. Okay, now I will just— this is a whole different podcast. I'll just point this out. If you watch like 3 of the main streams of progressivism, you will, you will see this. Progressivism has 3 things in it that specifically disciple children to do the demonic reverse image of Malachi 4:6. And I'll just do this real quick.
You got critical theory that trains kids to see their parents as racist, oppose in order to stand on the side of justice. You got queer theory that disciples kids to see their parents' views on gender, marriage, and sexuality as bigoted and repressive. So they have to rebel against their parents to, quote, be themselves. And then you have like hypertherapy culture that disciples children to see their family of origin, AKA their parents, as the source of every problem that they ever have. So they have to go no contact or separate from their parents to be happy. So I'm just going to put it this way. Point this out. What you have, progressivism, it is— if you just watch, it is uniquely designed. Honestly, man, in some ways I do think there are demonic elements to this, at least at the ideological level. It is designed to reverse disciple children, to turn the hearts of the children against the fathers in those three ways. Now there's a fourth way, and you're about to see it right here. Okay, so all that setup With that said, this is Ross Douthat with Yale University law professor Samuel Moyn. Here we go.
I've gotten in some hot water for proposing we consider overweighting the votes of younger people or assigning the youngest eligible voters proxy votes for the unrepresented children of our country. So those are edgy. Why not assign them to those children's parents? Pause. So dude, Stinkin' Ross, bomb, bomb. Good question. So he insightfully notices what this guy's doing. He's saying, you know what we ought to do is we ought to use the government to redistribute the authority of the children away from the leadership of the parents and distribute it broadly to the collective of the voting populace. Now again, dude, so here's the idea. The reason I point this out, and some people sometimes they think I just choose clips to rage bait people, that's not what I'm doing. I'm trying to to show you ideas have consequences. If you say A, you must eventually say B. And what I want you to start to see, you're going to start to see this as we keep talking about this, what you're going to start to see is that thought is far more prevalent in our society than you have any idea. Okay? So again, let me restate it.
He's proposing, let's redistribute the voting authority of children away from the family unit and distribute it among the voting populace. So communists call that statism. I'm just like, that's actually a communist idea, it's called statism. By the way, let me connect some dots for you. When somebody like Mamdani over in New York City says, "Hey, we need to get rid of the, quote, 'the frigidity of individualism' and replace it with, quote, 'the warmth of collectivism,'" that's what he's talking about. He's saying, "Hey man, let's get away from viewing people as individuals or as family units, and instead we just need to view everybody as part of the collective state. Okay, I'll give you one more. So I don't know if you can pull up— pull up that, uh, the old BLM vision statement. So again, there's these little tentacles, you know, ideas have consequences. If you say A, you must eventually say B. So when BLM was a thing, like before everybody figured out it was more like a lesbian Ponzi scheme, so So when BLM was a thing, people didn't notice this. BLM, actually in their vision statement, while everybody in America was marching for it, this is from their website.
This is what they stated. I went through this in a sermon one time and got absolutely crushed for it one time. For reading? I went through the BLM vision statement in 2021. It was early on.
I know. I'm just joking. You just read it.
Yeah, honestly, yeah, I just, I read it and I read it and then I went, here's what it says and here's what the Bible says. They took it down after. Yeah. So that's what I'm going to say is once people figured out what they were saying, they scrubbed it from the website. And I've been told they like deep dive scrubbed it from Google so you can't find it anymore. So this is like, we had to dig this up. So one of the things they said, let me read this to you. Now again, I'm trying to connect dots. This is what's being taught in Yale University Law Schools and a guy who came from Harvard and Columbia. Okay, now I'm gonna bring this all to— I'm gonna bring some points together. But again, these are like communist socialist ideas. We need to replace the individual and the family unit with, quote, the warmth of collectivism, and everything gets loaded up into the state. This is the BLM vision statement that everyone was like marching for, like even Christians were marching for this. We disrupt the Western prescribed nuclear family structure requirement. So in other words, heterosexual moms and dads raising their own kids, we'd like to disrupt that by supporting each other as extended families and villages that— you're going to hear a word that may sound familiar— collectively.
What they're saying is the same thing Ramdhani is saying now, who got it from his dad, who, if I understand correctly, was an actually open state Communist. It's, we need to replace the individual and the family unit with the collective of the state that collectively care for one another. Watch, especially our children. In other words, let's take away the authority of the parents and replace it with the authority of the state. So you got all this. So that's it. Okay, now I will just gently point this out, like, uh, dude, that's like, it's got a bit of an edge to it. It's just a fact. Every study that you will find ever right now is progressives don't have kids. They don't got kids. So you got this guy, progressive guy from Yale University, Columbia, Harvard, teaching the next generation of jurisprudence in our nation. And I would just kind of say this, dude, a lot of times it feels like progressives are people who avoid kids and abort kids telling people who have kids what's best for their kids. So that's what you got. Okay, now I love— so Douthat, let's go back to this.
Douthat goes, why not their parents? With a smirk on his face, which was kind of awesome. All right, now watch what happens here. Why not assign them to those children's parents? Well, because there's a divergence of interest between parents and children. And I think it's likelier that young people, not people who are raising families will have the best insight into the interests of children. Whereas you, if you were awarded 5 RC votes— I think that's daft. I think it's absurd to imagine that a 24-year-old recent college graduate has a better assessment of the interests of my own children than I do. Pause. Okay. That's great. Let me just point this out. He just said something he doesn't even realize is like actually theologically incisive. So can I just point this out? In every generation, what you're going to see is Romans chapter 1. It doesn't tell you what happened. It tells you what always happens. One of the things Romans chapter 1 says happens to a nation that is under the judgment of God and under the passive wrath of God is what? Watch this. This is really, really interesting. If you're watching that Yale University law professor and you are thinking what Ross Douthat is thinking and you're thinking that's daft, or you're thinking other four-letter words, okay, let me to say what you are doing is you are correctly applying Romans 1 that says what happens to nations under the passive wrath of God.
It says, quote, claiming to be wise, they became fools. In other words, in a nation that's under the wrath of God and walking away from him, it says that when they replace the truth of God for lies, that's what happens in a secular society. It says what you're going to get is people who think they're really wise that are actually doing foolishness. You got a bunch of people that are educated beyond their level of intelligence. They got more degrees than Fahrenheit. They got tons of wisdom. They have tons of knowledge. They have absolutely no wisdom. When he says, "That's daft," he's essentially doing Romans 1. Okay, now watch what he says here. This is great. I haven't heard— and I say this with all due respect to 24-year-old recent college graduates, of whom I hope to be the parent of in 9 years or so. I think parents generally and confuse the interests of their family with the interests of their children. And part of our goal, I think, as parents, but also as a society, is trying to make sure that children aren't the hostages of their parents. Done. Pause, bro. Now again, this is not just like, let's just find a fringe radical voice and nutpick.
This is the guy that is one of the most prominent law professors at Yale. Yeah, that's training future Supreme Court justices, that was at Harvard and Columbia University, that's shaping the jurisprudence angle of our future nation. Can I read you something?
So please do. Uh, Karl Marx, whom we teach in our universities, uh, he wrote this book called The Communist Manifesto, Chapter 2. This is literally what he calls for, quote, the abolition of the family. And this is a quote from his book, quote, do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty. That's, that's Marxism in our 101.
That's Marxism 101. That's right, bro. There's a quote I'm trying to find right now.
Well, while you're doing that, I just laughed because when I heard it, that they have their interests of their family for their interest their children who are their family. Yeah. When you said that, I was like, I don't even know that this makes logical sense in my head. You need another minute?
Did you get it? No, I can't find it. Yeah. So again— Marxism. Now, so here's what I'm driving at is, dude, Christians are not awesome at having an awareness of the ideological trends that are shaping the culture around them. And our job according to the scriptures is to, quote, we destroy arguments arguments. Yes. And every lofty opinion that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. The knowledge of God is heterosexual mom and heterosexual dad married in a covenant, raising their children, and they are the authority over their children, not the state. Okay. So now here's— I just want to point one last thing out, that there's just like when you watch stuff and you use the Bible not just as something you look into, but something as a lens that you look through and interpret the world. I just want to point this out. So in— this is not always true. This is generally stereotyping, but sometimes that's actually kind of helpful. It's just pattern recognition. In general, a lot of times what you get is progressivism is a lot of highly educated elites that sort of do the thing. And then in general, not always, you get conservative.
It's like a bunch of blue collar dudes kind of swing hammers and work with their hands. There's a lot of that kind of stuff, like lower. Sometimes it can feel like a little bit of class warfare. Not always, we're generalizing, that kind of thing. What I would like to point out to you that's really interesting, and you see it come to a head in a clip like that. This is interesting. Have you ever noticed that virtually every ideological fad that runs its way throughout culture like a little virus and then burns out, that people eventually realize, well, that was insane. Almost all of them are things that blue collar people, quote unquote, less educated people, they never bought into. They saw it immediately and were like, well, that's real dumb. So just think about this. In our lifetimes, you got the woke critical theory thing, you got the trans ideology, you got the hard queer theory thing, and now you got the Islam socialism thing that's going on. All of those those things, your normal uneducated blue-collar dude looks at it and he goes, "Nah, that's real stupid." And he never bought into it. Okay.
Now, have you ever thought about this? Why is it that the quote unquote less educated people are the ones who don't get hooked by the sort of ideological lies of the day? So I would just like to finish with this. It's really interesting. Lewis, a lowercase p prophet, Paul, a lowercase p prophet of his time. That's great. He actually wrote about this in— I reread That Hideous Strength a few years ago. So dude, here's C.S. Lewis's quote on why, quote, dumb blue-collar people almost never fall for the same terrible ideas that the, quote, educated elite class often does. Okay. C.S. C.S. Lewis in the 1930s predicting exactly what is happening in our generation because he was a man with a Bible in his hands, okay? It's a character in that Hideous Strength that says this: Why, you fool, it's the educated readers who can be gulled. All our difficulty comes with the others. When did you meet a workman? That's like an old-school English word for blue-collar guy that swings brings a hammer. When did you meet a workman that believes the papers? He takes it for granted that they're all propaganda, and he skips the leading articles.
He buys his paper for the football results and the little paragraphs about girls falling out of windows and corpses found in Mayfair Flats. That guy is our problem. It's a guy that's trying to deceive the populace. He says that guy, the workman, the little blue-collar dude, that guy's our problem. We have to find a way to recondition him. But the educated public, the people who read the highbrow weeklies, don't need reconditioning. They're all right already. They'll believe anything. Or in the words of Romans 1, claiming to become wise, they will become fools. There you go. Come on.
That's good, man. Pastor Josh, would you pray for us?
Yeah.— Father, thank you. Thank you for the blessing of being able to open your word and not just look into it, but look through it. Father, more than anything else, I pray for the men and women who are listening to this podcast that come from broken families and that didn't have dads that were around to point them to Jesus. Father, I thank you for the men and women who step forward and stand in gaps and become spiritual moms and spiritual dads to people who need them. Father, I pray that even while I'm praying, that there would be men and women with open Bibles and hearts full of the Spirit and people in their lives that right now you'd be speaking to them and they'd be going, "Here am I, send me," and that they would step forward and become a generation of spiritual moms and spiritual dads for people who didn't have them. Um, I pray for people who need them, that they would find their way to a local church and sit in a pew you were a seat and they watch, and that you would bring them those people, and that they would have the wisdom and initiative to chase them, and that they would be blessed in the doing.
Father, we love you. We pray for an entire generation of Timothys to be raised up in the name of Jesus and for his glory. Amen. Amen. Live free, brother. Free.
Who is shaping your faith—and whose faith are you helping shape? Spiritual maturity requires more than consuming sermons and Christian content. It grows through relationships with faithful believers who can model, correct, encourage, and walk alongside us.
Pastors Josh, Carlos, and Paul unpack the relationship between Paul and Timothy, explain how to find or become a spiritual parent, and examine whether apostles still exist in the church today. They also respond to cultural ideas about parental authority and show why Christians must use Scripture as the lens through which they understand the world.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
Why your heroes and influences shape your spiritual direction
What Paul and Timothy teach us about spiritual fathers and sons
How to find a mature Christian who can help you grow
How to become a spiritual mother or father to someone else
The difference between the original apostles and apostolic ministry today
Why parents carry primary responsibility for discipling their children
How to recognize cultural arguments that conflict with biblical truth
Stand firm. Think biblically. Live free.
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