Transcript of Episode 584: Matthew Hussey: Relationship Psychology: Why Strong Chemistry Can Keep You Stuck New

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

Welcome to Habits and Hustle, where I sit down with the world's biggest thinkers, entrepreneurs, and experts to uncover the habits, strategies, and mindset shifts that actually move the needle in your health, happiness, and success. And today I'm sitting down with Matthew Hussey, a relationship coach, bestselling author, speaker, and host of the Love Life Podcast. He has spent nearly 2 decades helping people navigate dating, heartbreak, commitment, and what it actually takes to build a healthy relationship. In this episode, we get into why we consistently overvalue connection, how chemistry can feel more important than it actually is, and the 4 levels of a relationship. We also talk about why someone cannot be your person while actively choosing not to be with you, and how we can end up grieving an imagined future more than the relationship itself. I love this episode. Matthew also explains how holding onto what could have been can become a form of avoidance and why moving on requires deliberate action instead of simply waiting for your feelings to disappear. This conversation will make you rethink chemistry, compatibility, commitment, heartbreak, and the stories you create around relationships that never became what you hoped they would.

What Matthew shares in this episode will help you separate connection from compatibility and recognize when you are attached to a potential instead of reality. Like I said, this episode has it all, so let's dive in. Before we dive into today's episode, I wanna thank our sponsor, Momentous. When your goal is healthspan, living better and longer, there are very few non-negotiables. One of them, quality. And when it comes to supplements designed for high performers, nobody does it better than Momentous. Momentous goes all in on NSF certification, which means every single batch is tested for heavy metals, harmful additives, and label accuracy. And that's why they're trusted by all 32 NFL teams and top collegiate sports dietitians across the country. Here's the thing, they don't sell every supplement under the sun because they believe in nailing the basics with rock-solid consistency. And those basics are protein and creatine. Momentous sources CreaPure, the purest form of creatine monohydrate available, an absolute must for both men and women who want peak physical and cognitive performance. So if you're serious about leveling up, Go to livemomentous.com and use code JEN for 20% off. Just act now. Start today. JEN for 20% off.

livemomentous.com. Like, there's certain qualities that people are typically drawn to, right? Charm, right? Like, being funny, charming, like all those things. But those are like usually very surface topical things that don't really serve us, right? Like as a girl, right? I'm attracted to guys or who are like that, right? Confident, funny, charismatic. A lot of times those guys don't make the greatest partners though. They've learned how to, like, to be great sales representatives. That's what happens a lot of times. I'm, and now I am speaking for like a, 'cause me, like women talk about this all the time. And I bet you similar to how you probably were, right? When you were saying you were a bad, like, you probably weren't like an asshole to, you know, you were probably very nice.

Not intentionally anyway.

Not intentionally.

Yeah.

You probably were like, I think even your, in your paragraph when you first opened the book, you were charismatic, you were nice, you were chivalrous. You know, you did all the nice things to make someone wanna like you, even though you knew that you're probably not the greatest partner. I think that's what people get drawn to, right? is this superficial level, and it's very hard for people to separate that from something more. And then you also write about the facts. This is a couple two-prong question, which I love when you said this, that connection isn't what you should be striving for, it's compatibility. Because I think we always say to each other, well, we have such a great connection, or the connection, the connection. Like, you always hear the word connection. connection. It's like the big hashtag in relationships. But the truth of the matter, just because you do have a connection and you— this is the part of the book I was reading ferociously. It really doesn't matter. It's about, are you guys compatible? And people, again, mistake those two. Can you talk about why and just expand upon those things? Because I think that a lot of people, like that would resonate with on both sides?

Well, firstly, to your point about all those attractive qualities, we have to go a little deeper in terms of what it is we're looking for. It's fine to like someone who's charming. It's fine to like someone who's funny or sexy or any of those things. But that can't be all you need.

Right. But we mistake it for lust and love or lust and like compatibility.

Well, you can desire someone, but we have to start separating what makes someone desirable from what makes them a great partner. And it has to be as much a criteria for who we invest in that they are a great partner as they are desirable. It can't be, you know, I always say to people, it's fine to want chemistry, but why don't you want kindness as much as you want chemistry?

Mm-hmm.

Why is it that chemistry keeps winning over someone who's decent or someone who's kind or someone who's thoughtful or someone who's loyal or empathetic or consistent? You have to suspect yourself if you have really, really high standards for chemistry and really low standards for how someone treats you.

Right.

That's the problem. Fine, want those things, but never at the expense of someone's character or the way they show up, the way they invest in you. That has to be— the price of entry has to be the deep, the deeper things that you really need. And by the way, how do you make, you know, how do you get the bravery or the courage or the resolve to make those things your price of entry, you look at relationships you've had in the past where you really wanted to hold on to someone, where you thought they were so amazing, where you thought, I can't lose this person. And you remember that whatever it was you were missing in that relationship—

Right.

Made you dreadfully unhappy. It made you miserable. Even when you were telling yourself, I'll never be able to, I can't lose this person. it actually made it intolerable to stay.

Absolutely.

And when you know what that was, maybe you didn't feel seen by that person. Maybe you felt like you never got their time. Maybe you felt like they— you never really trusted them, or that they were never really in the relationship. You know, whatever it was you were missing made it hell to be there. We may not have admitted that at the time, because when we're in those relationships, we have to sell ourselves on staying.

Right. We justify behavior. Yeah.

And we've kid ourselves about how happy we are.

Right.

But when we leave and we look back, you go, oh my God, I was a wreck. I was an anxious, sad wreck in that relationship for so long. And when you realize, when you remember and connect to how painful that was, you don't need self-worth to decide that you'll never again be in a relationship without those core things.

Right.

You just need to know how much it hurt last time and how you could never do it again, regardless of how charismatic or sexy someone is. So That's what I want to say about that. In terms of the connection piece, we consistently overvalue connection. It is such a seductive thing to find someone who we like, who likes us back. That is like, it feels like the Holy Grail when you find it. It feels like lightning in a bottle. How often do I like someone, let alone they like me? Oh my God. God, it feels like the most important thing on earth.

Yeah.

But when someone— when the person we have this with is telling us they don't want a relationship or they're not sure about us, right, then it counts for nothing. It's not important. In the book, I talk about there being 4 levels of importance in—

I love that part.

A relationship. And it's so important because once people have this model, they never look at their love life the same way again. The first level of importance for any situation in your life, and everyone listening to this can imagine, as you think of someone in your life, maybe you're struggling with, or you're hung up on, or you can have in your head which one of these levels you think you're at. Level 1 is admiration. That's just where you have someone that you think is great. They may not even know you exist. You just, you think this person's hot, whatever.

Right.

There's something about them. Level 2 is mutual attraction. That's the level we're talking about when you feel a connection, whether it's a deeper connection, whether it's physical connection, you feel that mutual attraction with them. That's the level that's really dangerous. Level 3 is commitment. The reason level 2 is really dangerous is because it feels really important. But without level 3, without someone actually saying, yes, I want you, I wanna be with you, It's worthless. It's utterly worthless. It's like 2 people discovering a plot of land together, and it's a beautiful plot of land. You could build the most amazing house there, but it's still just a plot of land. A relationship is the thing you build on that land.

Right.

You can't kid yourself that the plot of land is the thing. It's not. So commitment is the commitment to actually build something on that plot of land. And then even commitment on its own isn't enough. You need compatibility. And compatibility is level 4. Do we work together? Okay, we have mutual attraction. We've both said yes to a relationship, but does this work? Do we share a vision for our lives? Do we have lifestyles that are compatible? Do we share— have a shared moral compass? Do we think the same way about life?

Right.

You know, do you feel it's okay to lie all the time? And I really value honesty. Do you like to go out till 5:00 AM every night? And I really enjoy the morning.

Right.

And okay, if that's true, can we still find enough quality time together outside of the nighttime and the morning that we can sustain a relationship? Compatibility matters. And my whole thing is this. If you have mutual attraction, commitment, they're saying yes, and you are too, and you have compatibility. It works.

Right.

And then the love of your life gets taken from you in a horrible accident. That's tragic. That is a real tragedy. But if you're in level 2 and the person that you say is your person is walking this earth, they're still here. Ordering things on Amazon and they're choosing not to be with you. That's not a tragedy.

No.

They could be with you and they're not. They're choosing not to. So we have to lose the story that this person is my person. They're not your person. It can't— someone can't exist and they're somewhere right now and not choosing you and they're your person. It's a story we have in our mind. It's not reality. And I think that that is a tremendous help in getting over people because you may still need to grieve. But my friend, I don't know if you know David Kessler, the grief expert, one of the leading grief experts, he said to me, grief is a result you didn't want.

Right. That's a good— yeah.

And when someone you thought would become more says they don't want more, That is a result you didn't want. So it may still require grief, but it's not the grief of, I've lost my soulmate.

Right.

It's the grief of disappointment that this person never became my soulmate, even though I thought they were, and it turns out they weren't. And I'm grieving the loss of that future and the idea that I had about this person and this relationship. What I'm not doing is living in the chronic grief of thinking that person is the love of my life and they're still out there. That's the kind of grieving that doesn't go away. And I have watched the extremes of this where people 20 years, 30 years on are still talking about a person who was in their life 30 years ago that they've never gotten over. And I want to say you are locked in a story right now that is the great tragedy of your life if you're not careful, is going to be giving over your life to this fake story.

Because they're stuck in level 2, which is the connection part, right?

Because you're, you're, you're valuing this idea, right?

The story in your head.

Not, not the reality. If it was the reality, it would be the reality. You would be with this person. We have this great story. I mean, I, I love the movie Titanic. I will cry every time in that movie. Yeah, I love it too. But if you really stand back, there's something a little odd about the idea that a woman in her, I don't know if she's 90s or over 100, I can't remember, but she's pretty—

She's pretty old.

Pretty old.

She's almost 100. I think she is 100.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Still telling this story about a guy that she knew for about 5 days on a boat.

I guess you're right. But I think what I totally—

Like, she didn't even know him.

She didn't know him.

She didn't know him.

But I think that's why that part of the book, I think, is so good, because I really believe that that number 2, that connection part, is where most people do get stuck.

Yes.

I mean, I really do believe it. Like, you know, going through it, like, I'm married now, whatever. But there's always these people that you had this thing with that things never turned out for one reason, who cares, circumstance. That I don't know if it's because— and I'm a lot— almost everybody I know gets stuck in this area at some point.

All of us.

And it depends on like either like the— like it depends on the length of time. Maybe some are still stuck in it, but what— that's why it's so resonated so strong. And I think it depends on— it's a potential Like kind of opportunity or potential that was never turned or like seen out. So that's what the book is.

Yes, the unhatched eggs of our life.

Right.

You know, I think that— have you seen this new show One Day?

Oh no, what is that one?

The big new show on Netflix. It's like a very popular show at the moment. I'm not going to give away any spoilers, but it—

Should I watch it? Is it worth it?

Oh, it's a lovely show and it's extremely engaging and entertaining.

Yeah.

And it made me and my wife loved it. But it's a story about these 2 friends who— or these 2 people who meet in college and this kind of constant, you know, will they, won't they type story.

Oh, yes. Okay.

And it's a very dangerous story because you see, you know, how someone can give up so much of their life.

Yes.

Like giving someone so much real estate in their mind And in TV shows and movies, that can pan out nicely.

Yeah.

But in real life, bad bets are just bad bets. They're not totally— you know, you wouldn't take your life savings and put it on a, you know, 1 in 1,000 bet. But it's like we do that in our love life all the time.

But do you think people are doing it as a distraction?

That's an interesting point. I think it it can be a form of avoidance. I think it's a way to not be an active participant in our own life. It's a way to not be involved because it fulfills something. It feels—

Fantasy. It's like a fantasy is what it is.

It's a fantasy, and it's safe. I can talk about it from the comfort of my bedroom and It requires me to risk nothing. It lives on as this endlessly fascinating, mysterious thing. It never has to disappoint me, even though ultimately it's the great disappointment of our lives that we've given up on the real thing. But—

So many, and also, like you said, hours. And literally, if you kind of add up all the hours that people spend on this area in their life, it'd probably be like years of time spent.

Yeah, well, people give up decades to these ideas and these stories, and it's really tragic. It's easier to like kind of nurture that egg.

Totally.

That never hatches than to go out and live. Because by the way, living is often, it's messier. And it's, you know this, with people in business, it's easier to talk about an idea of a great concept you have. To go out and actually put time and energy into it, it's harder. Look, writing is the same way.

That's a great analogy, actually.

My writing coach said to me, never expect what you put on the page to be as good as what it is, how it is in your mind.

Yeah.

It is a, it's a kind of poor version of this perfect idea you have in your head, and you're just doing your best to try to get as close to that as possible. But you have to accept the fact that it is a, this thing that you end up on the page with is often a very disappointing version of this thing you have in your head. But at a certain point in life, you have to decide, am I a real writer or am I someone who talks about this great book idea they've got? And in our love life, we can either be in the game and active and involved, or we can hold on to this perfect unhatched egg and talk about how great it would've been or could be if only. And the, the, it comes down to, do you wanna live a real life?

That is seriously such a great point. And that's a great analogy too, right? Because 99% is perspiration, right? Like, 1% is the idea in business, right? Like, anyone can talk. It's fun to fantasize and think and dream, right? But the sweat comes in the actual hard work, and it's—

As it does in a marriage. Yeah. You look at— whenever I hear of love at first sight, I kind of think what an insult to marriage.

Yeah, right.

You know, the marriage is this path that people take that is— it takes guts and it takes effort and it takes 2 people being, you know, in this marathon together and figuring it out as they go and constant, you know, doubling down on their commitment to the relationship and to making it as good as it can be and going through hard times together and The days where it's just rough or the periods of life where there's financial instability and you find a way to stick together or illness and you're taking someone to the hospital and you're like, that's the guts of a relationship. When someone says they were my person and they've known them for 3 months, I'm like, stop wasting my time.

Yeah.

Most of what a relationship is, you've never seen from that person. How could you have seen it from that person?

It's impossible. Then how do you get over a relationship you never had? Because this is what it really is. People have to— how do you— is that— what's the tactical way to get over a relationship that you never had? Is it just to, again, be cognizant of it and act differently? Do, like, start dating people?

You put intention behind moving forward in your life, like real intention. It's like a breakup. There's a grieving period, and everyone knows who's gone through a terrible breakup, there's a zombie-like period where you're just good for nothing. But at a certain point, you have to put intention behind moving on. You can't be passive about it. It is a war of attrition against those feelings.

Yeah.

It is waking up one day and deciding, let me get everything out of this fucking apartment. that has a connection to them because it is not helping me to see that picture over there or to see that memento we got from that time in Cabo or to get— I don't need that stuff around me. Let me get them off of my social media. Why am I still following them? Why haven't I muted them already so that I don't see their posts?

Mm-hmm.

Why am I still talking about them with friends? Why am I— come to think of it, when my friend comes to me for lunch and says, oh, you know, they've started dating so-and-so or whatever. am I not telling my friend, hey, I love you, but I need you to just stop talking about them because I don't want to have them as a conversation anymore. They are not a topic of conversation that's relevant to my life anymore. So it would really help me if we stopped talking about them altogether. We can talk about anything else in the world. It doesn't help me to know this information. You have to be intentional about moving on. And a lot of people Are not willing to be intentional about moving on because it's harder to go and live a real life.