Transcript of Episode 559: James Beshara: Top #2 Angel Investor Shares Why He Backs The Founder Not The Business New

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle.

Crush it. Okay, you guys, we have a big treat today. We have one of the most fantastic founders, serial entrepreneurs on the planet, and not just my opinion, but on, but actually the opinion of many because we have James Bishara. Bishara, did I say that right?

Either works. Uh, it's so the Americanized version is Bishara.

Bishara.

The Lebanese version, my family's Lebanese, Bishara, but our family's like, we just go with the flow. So Bashara works.

That works. Okay. James Bashara, or Bashara. He is the founder of Magic Mind, my, one of my favorite, favorite habits, daily rituals of, uh, of, of all time. But also I just found out that James is also considered the number 2 most, uh, best angel investor on the planet by, of course, Angie's List.

You said, said that AngelList. Yeah. AngelList.

Oh, AngelList.

He's the biggest.

There's also an AngelList. There is. Angie's List. Yeah.

If I If I was a home cleaner, I hope to God I'd be in the top 3. I would, I'd work my ass off to be in the top 3. But alas, I went the angel investing route instead. And through a lot of, honestly, through, Jen, through a lot of failure and in building things that learning what not to do, it got me into the circles of really great founders and started to make a couple investments. And then I was like, I think I could do a few more. And it started to take off from there.

But wait a second, so you have had 3 exits of a, of companies that have $100 million and more, right?

I've built 3 companies yet to evaluation of $100 million or more.

You were also voted number 2 on AngelList as a—

Yeah, AngelList, they every once in a while they put out data and, and the last time they put out the data of their top investors on the whole platform, which is, it's the biggest platform for angel investors. They had, they did have me listed. Number 2.

So why you? Like, what are they looking for? What are the kind of qualifications are saying that this guy is the top angel investor, this one's not? Like, what, what are they looking for?

That's a great question.

It's done by— What are the data points?

It's done by height.

Yeah, I was gonna say for sure. You're what, 6'5"?

Yeah. So it's all done by height. No, the, uh, I would be number 1 actually. They don't. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. They actually do not release exactly how they compile their data, but they do have more data than, than anybody. And it's, um, built on performance. Data. So how your investments— I've been an angel, I've been an angel investor for 14 years now. And, and so they, they compile all of the entry points of when you get into companies, where those companies are. Right. But the reason I say that it's, it's hard to know exactly what data they're using is because let's say a company is private for 10 straight years. They haven't gone public. Maybe they raised around 2 years ago that says they're a $10 billion company, but 2 years later, Maybe they've grown a lot. Do you make it a $12 million company? Do you make it a 14? It's kind of, it can be a bit of an art, uh, at that point. So yeah, that's kind of the, a lot of people like, how do you compile your data? And, and I don't even know how they compile it.

Well, also though, let me ask you a question that why, why do you think you are, why do you think you're a great angel investor? Or, 'cause you've raised a ton of money over the last many years.

I always think about this Warren Buffett line in this realm where he said, I'm a, I'm a better businessman because I'm an investor and I'm a better investor because I'm a businessman. So when I think about my investing, the lens, and I look at about 1,700 deals a year and it usually invests in about 20 a year. So it's 15 to 20 and these days it's less and less 'cause Magic Mind keeps growing and, and we've got 3 little daughters and just want to be as present as possible for, for them. My number one, kind of like waking hours goals to spend 20,000 hours with them before they're all 10 years old or above. Because I can tell you the, the story behind that goal, but that quote from, from Warren Buffett is so, I think so brilliantly encapsulates that building startups, and you know this as well, by building your own operation, cuz you have team members, you've got just a, um, a, a really well-oiled machine. That then helps you notice when you're working with a company, like, well, how responsive are they on an email that I sent them 5 days ago?

Why is it taking 5 days versus, wow, they replied 5 hours later? You see these things and it's like, I wouldn't necessarily hire someone that takes 5 days to reply. So would I want to partner with a company that takes 5 days to reply? And it's a very similar lens where I'm thinking about in terms of just the people that I— something that I think about is when I, when when a founder is pitching me, I guess I've invested in something like 100 and 100-something investments. I've never counted it up, but the, uh, when I'm chatting with a founder for a potential investment, I'm thinking, does this person make me wanna work with them within 7 minutes? Minute 9, minute 19, it's too late because you meet someone great at a, uh, uh, network event, at a dinner, at a house party, that could be an amazing co-founder, potential investor, uh, a partner, a brand ambassador, a recruit for, you know, let's say, an open role that you have. If you can't hook them, even if you do have 30 minutes on a Zoom, but if you can't get them engaged, you know, for a dinner cocktail serendipitous moment, you might have 6 minutes before they decide whether they want to chat with you.

Why 7 minutes though? That is a great question. I settled on 7 because I usually know within 7 minutes. And I think it goes back to this, this, uh, this intuition aspect of, you know, like logic is 11 data points. Intuition is 1,000 data points. That you're pulling on to recognize, do I love being around this person? Like, for instance, do I get great energy? So I get amazing energy every time we hang. I'm like, dude, I just love Jen. And everybody does. And if it took 8 minutes, you might not have those 8 minutes. Like, you have learned probably since you were 9 years old, since you were 5 years old. Like, it's probably not— it's part learned and part just who you are. It's like, I want to make this person feel amazing. On minute 1 and second 30. And what I've noticed the best founders is they're wired to make someone else feel amazing. Minute 1, really, they're already looking into, uh, and this is how I, when I'm, I've, I've fundraised probably $100 and maybe $150 million for different things over the last 15 years of building companies, last 18 years of building companies.

And I recognize early on, like, I am so wired to wanna figure out what does this investor care about? 3 days before the call? What am I thinking about that morning? The shower before calling 3 hours, like for Jan in this podcast, I was showering early thinking like, okay, what, what would she, I'm on the drive here thinking, what would she care about this?

Okay.

She loves this. I'm looking this up. And it's a total empathy thing of like whether founders, the best founders, whether they know it or not, they're so service-oriented. And this is, obviously very different than what the press would say about founders. But like Steve Jobs, I heard this about 2 years ago. This is so, so cool. His chief of staff that had been his chief of staff for 22 years, James Higa, he's an investor in Magic Mind, and he was chatting with our team 2 years ago and he said, I was like, well, what was the, what was the underlying mission of, of Apple? Like, what was the— because I'd never actually never heard their one-line mission. For Google, it's organize the world's information. Facebook, it's connect humanity. And I was like, what's the one-line mission for Apple? And he goes, oh, it was how best to relieve suffering. And I was like, what? He was like, oh yeah, we never really like codified it, but you know, in our executive team meetings, that was kind of the decision. Maker was which route would lessen suffering the most. And I was like, wait, James, what?

Wow.

I was like, I've, I've consumed nearly everything that there is to consume about Apple, Steve Jobs. I've never heard that. He goes, well, yeah, I think he got it from his guru or something. I'm like, wait, what?, and he's like, yeah, well, you know, he, he had his guru in Tokyo that, um, give him a lot of advice on these things. And, and I was like, you think that, all right, billionaire, uh, Apple, Edison of our time. You think of those things and, and this is, I think, the mistake that young founders get caught up in, or any first-time founder gets caught up in is you get caught into the, uh, the fruits instead of the roots for examples in life. Never look at the fruits. The fruits of what a tree is bearing has nothing to do with if you want to replicate those fruits. It is every— like, you go to a great vineyard, the winemaker would be like, yeah, you can't look at the grapes and get that much information. It is all about the soil we chose, the climate of exactly where we are on the hill. You would never just look at the grapes and be like, that gives me the whole playbook.

And yet we do that with examples in history all the time.

We're like— That's so true. That's such a wise thing to say. And it's so true. And we are programmed to do that so often. But I like what you said about, you said so many good things in the last few minutes. I was trying to like remember them so I can, I can—

Speaking of, let's take a magic mind shot to cool down.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

So we can focus more.

This one's caffeine-free, right? Speaking of roots, this is the caffeine-free 'cause it is about 1:00 PM and This is, uh, speaking of the roots instead of fruits, well, you can have half if you want, but yeah, this is part of my roots for the best.

You guys, I'm— well, I do it all the time and they're, they're—

God, just smells good too.

We're going to talk all about this. We're not there yet, but just—

and that's our sugar-free version. That's, um, it is so delish and caffeine-free. Yep, it's good.

It is, uh, so good.

First, uh, caffeine-free shot that we had ever heard of, caffeine-free energy shot. So it's, uh, yeah, it took a while to develop.

It's amazing. They all taste so good. But wait a second, before we even jump into Magic Mind, because you know I'm going to have a bazillion things to talk about with that, you said a couple of things that I want to make sure we don't forget because I think they're really valuable, uh, pieces of information. There's a lot of wisdom there about founders, because if we have entrepreneurs or people who want to start businesses, you're a really great person and a great resource to give people some very tactical actionable things and things that people just maybe not think about. But you said something that really kind of resonated because I did a whole talk on this and it kind of went viral on the fact that I believe, and from my, from what I've seen from my purview, that companies or investors typically they invest not in the business or the company, but the founder. And if you're likable, you are gonna have a 40% more chance of not just raising money, but getting more money. And you just kind of said that you proved that, that hypothesis, right? Because you said if you like somebody or they give you that feeling of ener— or that energized feeling within 7 minutes, you know if you like them.

And then all these other things of course make a difference. So basically, and I, I, I totally see this because now that, now I know you, I see why, you know, you are able to raise money. You're able to like build this business and be like, cuz it all comes from with, from the top and you exude a great energy, a great empathy, very empathetic. You're kind, you're likable. So that is exactly, that is your secret. That is your secret sauce.

You're likable. It's all magic mind. I do say, I'm like, people are like, man, you have such great energy at, you know, 4:00 PM, 8:00 PM. I'm like, that's the magic mind.

It could be the magic mind, but it's also part of like we say in the Jewish world, like neshamah, like it's part of like who you are, like your DNA is very much that way.

I do. I love people, and I love— nothing lights me up more than figuring out what someone wants, needs, is struggling with. And then I can, I could get so quickly emotional. Think about it. And then jumping in to help them. It's a I was chatting about this with, uh, Theo Von, the comedian.

Yeah, I love him.

He's good. He's so great.

We want his podcast.

No, we were just chatting, and he's, uh, he's a, uh, been a friend for years. And he and I were chatting about— I was like, you know what's so weird is growing up, you remember the King Arthur stories? He was like, oh yeah, I love those. I was like, did you want to be King Arthur, or did you want to— was there any party that that liked Merlin. He's like, Merlin? No. Yeah, I want to be King Arthur, of course. And he like, and he, he's a nut for like childhood things. So, but yeah, he mentioned that so quickly and I was like, man, I always wanted to be Merlin. And I always loved Merlin. I, he's the wizard that like helps the Knights of the Round Table. He's kind of like a side character.

Yeah.

But what I loved about that character is, and I only, I, I was doing this like, non-associative drawing exercise where I was just drawing and seeing with my eyes closed, like, where would my mind go? This was, uh, I don't know, a year or two ago. And, and I was drawing Merlin. I was like, God, I always— I forgot I loved Merlin when I was a kid. The product is called Magic Mind. I loved performing magic, uh, when I was little.

And you did?

I did. And I loved this, uh, aspect of this this character that would help these knights. He didn't necessarily have like some big challenge of his own, but he loved helping the Knights of the Round Table succeed in their challenges. I wake up each day and I'm like, I don't really have that much to— I don't have like this drive of like, I need to make this happen in my life. But once I hear someone that I know and love has this or that problem, dude, I'll go on a walk for 45 minutes thinking about how can I solve it. It's the reason that we were saying just before we hit record, like, Both of us are wired to where we don't, um, people think I'd be good at sales. I'm like, not if, yeah, it's only if it's something that I really believe in, because then I can't wait to tell people about it because it's going to benefit you. So yeah, that was the, the, I mean, the whole founding story of Magic Mushrooms, these 12 ingredients, well, they will ensure that you, you feel like you're in flow state within 15, 20 minutes.

These are the 12 things, and I was doing that years before ever starting a Tell us about it because you're, what you'd also said, what's interesting is that you are one of these founders with Magic Mind, but you're like intricately involved. Like you were at that, like, you know, at Expo West, you were there like standing there for hours. Like for, like you're there at the booth. Like you really, you so believe in this product. And on top of that, you also are investing on all these other projects that you also are involved with. Like you are, Like, do you sleep or does Magic Mind keep you up? Like, how does it work?

I sleep great. I'm in bed at like 8:30. I wake up at 4:30. Yeah. Magic Mind Sleep. It is. Yeah. We, we did launch Magic Mind Sleep because it's, it is, uh, we launched it, um, a little bit ago and it's great too. It is. So I know, and in fact, one of our other partners and friends, do you know Pete Holmes? You got out of Money Podcast. No, you didn't.

By the way, you just, you just mentioned him before the podcast. I have no idea who this person is.

Oh, he is a great comedian.

Hilarious comedian. Oh, he's a comedian. I like him already.

I know. Let's book him. Yes. You know, he, you would I love him. And he, like you, gets stopped on the street because he's like talking about Magic Mind all the time. And, and, uh, and he'll send me texts of like, I'm on the streets of Baltimore, someone just came up to me saying their life was changed with— uh, the, um, one of the things that he said that was, uh, that is so, so I guess, uh, interesting around this topic. And by the way, I also— yeah, this morning I, I was like, I need to go surfing and figure out this thing where we're about to launch— I'll let listeners in on this— we're about to launch a new version of Magic Mind Sleep. And how do we launch an improved version? But we still have this inventory. We got to mind every penny. We sell this inventory of version 1.0. And so it's, it was a, uh, like I'm very involved to where it was like, I was like, I have to figure out this Tetris in my head and I need to go clear my head. I'm going to go surfing to try to figure it out, to help the team.

I don't think so. Maybe. But then I was on a 30-minute call on the way here with our team member Joe, just trying to think through this, these logistics. My co-founder William, who's just so brilliant in the same way. He and I both love, we can't, we can't not be involved in these nitty-gritty details. I'm sure we, we piss off team members that are like, you hired me to be the expert in this. And they are experts that tell us how we should be doing things. But then every once in a while it's like, there's 5 years. Yes, exactly. 5 years of instant, you know, just like institutional knowledge that says I need to jump in here and help with this. And that was kind of one of those, uh, examples today. But, um, but yeah, there is a, uh, Pete, he wrote me this text. He was like, okay, Magic Mind Sleep, how has one company done it twice? And this sounds like a commercial.

And obviously I know it's not even a commercial.

This is like legit. He's like, there's no, usually companies nail one product and you guys actually nailed two with Magic Mind Sleep. But yeah, why do we do this?

You did nail two because I will, I, I, I'm saying this because it is legit and And Ed can even vouch for this, the, uh, my cameraman over here. People come here and they say to me without any type of cajoling, oh my God, I'm obsessed with the sleep one. And I, I'm like, people legitimately love that sleep one. What is in the sleep one? That's not in, okay. How did, like, cuz it's true. Like you did, you like knocked two outta the park.

Well, thank you. The, uh, and I could talk about this stuff. The, the people that are interested in the ingredients, Yeah, great topic. They, they, I love, love talking about this and, and it, this'll be, uh, generically helpful whether you buy Magic Mind or not. So with Magic Mind's, um, the daytime shot, the morning shot was all built around, at least the key insight was the leading cause of procrastination is low-grade pervasive stress and anxiety. It's not fatigue, it's not lack of motivation. We think it's, it's those things.

Yeah.

But. The leading cause, and the research actually shows that it's low-grade pervasive stress. You actually, you're motivated, extremely motivated to nail that big paper you gotta write or that 3-hour project you've been putting off. But your low-grade pervasive stress, just of living in the world that we, we live in of 25 text messages every hour and 50 emails every, every day. We're like, I'll get to it later. I'll get to it later. But if you can decrease that, that. Stress, that low-grade kind of just like, I want to get to it, but like, it's got to be perfect. If you can decrease that, yep, you can actually— your, your to-do list just melts away. And when I figured that out in my morning stack, just my personal morning stack, this was probably 7, 8 years ago, and I was like, oh my God, that's the unlock. That when we're drinking excessive amounts of caffeine, the sad side, side effect of excessive amounts of caffeine. First, caffeine works, its primary, uh, function is that it blocks our adenosine receptors that tell us we're building fatigue. It actually, it doesn't produce that much energy in the body.

To produce energy in the body, you wanna produce, uh, the fuel currency of the body is called ATP. And you can do that with things like cordyceps mushrooms, which is in Magic Mind, or you can feel like you're awake by shutting off the check engine light, the adenosine receptors that tell us we're building fatigue. But that fatigue, and everybody knows this from chugging a coffee, it's building in the background. And when that caffeine wears off, you crash. But it is like I, like I said, it's just like turning off the check engine light when you chug another cup of coffee. Yeah. Or a Red Bull or an energy drink.

Yeah.

It's turning off the check engine light instead of actually improving the engine. So the first insight was like, well, I wanna improve the engine. What are the ingredients that actually produce more ATP and, and produce, uh, the fuel currency of the body? That was the first set of things in the beginning. Then I, then I learned that when we consume, and this was, you know, like I said, 7, 8, I mean, really the beginning of this journey is about 12 years ago. Ended up writing a whole book on this subject before starting Magic Mind.

Oh yeah.

And, and I would just love this stuff. It was kind of this Merlin kind of, uh, story where it was like, when I tell people about, hey, you should try ashwagandha, you should try rhodiola, you should try bacopa monnieri. They would notice such a better lift in their productivity for years. And then I found out about, okay, decreasing stress. And let me let people in on this, this secret that most, uh, biohackers know, which is when you consume a lot of caffeine, you are turning off that check engine, check engine light instead of improving the engine, but also critically, also you're spiking cortisol, the body's stress response. The very thing that you think, like, if I chug this Red Bull, I'm gonna knock out that project. Maybe for the next hour and a half you're good, but then the very thing you're chugging to get through that next to-do list item is the very thing that an hour and a half later your stress is spiking. You're like, I don't wanna do anymore. I can't now. Now I gotta go into, you know, being a great mom or a great dad after work. I'm so stressed.

And people would rarely make the connection of, oh, it's cuz I had those 2, 3, 4 extra cups of coffee that I, I shouldn't have had.

Also, what I noticed, cuz I'm a big coffee lover, um, I love Iced coffee. I love cold brew. I love that whole thing.

I love it too.

I love it. And the problem is not, not even necessarily a pro—

well, it's actually, I drink it cuz I like the taste and I love the ritual of it. I love a great, I drink a half-caf in the morning.

The ritual.

I love it. The, the warmth. And then I add my Magic Mind just alongside it. Take a Magic Mind next to it.

Well, what I was gonna say is that the coffee for me, the ritual of pouring the cold brew, putting in the almond milk, doing that whole thing is more of the ritual and I don't think it gives me any more energy. I'm not, I'm doing it for the taste, not for the effect anymore. In fact, I can probably drink 5 of them and probably fall asleep because the, it does, my body has acclimated.

You build the tolerance in about 30 days.

You build it. You really do. You build a tolerance. I can have now 2, 3 cold brews and people are like, could be jumping off the, the, I guess the rooftop and I'd be like, whatever. What I found with Magic Mind, what I do, my, my part of my ritual is I drink it before I work out because it will, it will actually make me work out longer. And I'm, I'm like in, like I'm focused more.

The cordyceps mushrooms and specifically the, the supplier that we get our cordyceps from, we're like, we are nuts for how much research. It's the most over-researched beverage we know of. And it sounds, that sounds biased, but like anybody can email us for the, the third-party testing that we do across every contaminants, heavy metals. You do. Yeah. Microbials. MycoTox, it's, it's, we, we give it to everybody. Everybody we know, our own family drinks it daily. So we're, I'm just like, I, I'm gonna go as far as you possibly can. Mm-hmm. Our operations manager Blake, when I said, made a request for the latest test that Tim Ferriss asked for, he was like, uh, we can do it, but that's like, we're the only beverage I know of that would do it. And I was like, great. That's a, that's a reason we should do it. Yeah, exactly. But, um, but yeah, the, the, the cordyceps, specifically cordyceps. So great for endurance athletes and for anybody working out that wants 15, 20, 30% more endurance for their workout.

Yeah. Well, and also like I'm, I'm focused more and I'm, I, I have my best ideas now, like when I work out regardless, but coffee doesn't do the same thing. It does not work as well. It does not. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm just being honest.

And caffeine is actually, this is where we get into the fun, I think.

Uh, but there is caffeine in this.

There's 50, not in this one. No, not in the caffeine-free, but we do have 55 milligrams in our, uh, original shot. In the original. We have a, Uh, Magic Mind Max, which is 165 milligrams, which is, uh, that is about a cup of coffee, but it's time-released over the course of 8 hours, which is so cool. You couldn't do that until about 2 years ago. It's amazing. Time-release liquid. You could do time-release pills, but not liquid until about 2 years ago. As soon as we saw that, William and I were like, we're gonna make the first time-release energy shot. And Max, uh, is that. Now we've incorporated time-release into Original. But okay, the generic, I wanna, I definitely wanna oscillate back to the generic helpful information. Yeah. That's It's so independent of, of whether you, uh, anybody drinks Magic Mind or not. And on the caffeine side of things, side of things, the neurochemistry and the biophysiology of caffeine is really interesting and it's so poorly understood. One, what I was saying of people think a cup of coffee gives them energy. Yeah. Gives you a tiny amount of adrenaline, but, uh, its primary function is shutting off the, the neuroreceptors telling you that you're building fatigue.

The adenosine receptors, and then 3 hours later, those blocks wear off and the adenosine rushes in and you have that crash. But there are actual things that nature and science give us that do build up the body's fuel currency and produces more energy. But the other thing that's, uh, that is poorly understood about caffeine, at least from the, uh, mainstream audience, it's very well documented in the, in the literature, is that caffeine is a vasoconstrictor. So it restricts the blood flow to the brain. So you get less oxygen to your brain.

Mm.

With something like citricoline, which is in Magic Mind, citricoline improves blood flow to the brain. Why is that good? That improves lateral thinking. Lateral thinking is the scientific term, the academic term for creativity.

Oh.

Lateral thinking is being able to switch context, be able to combine this problem and this problem, or this potential solution with this problem. So. Citricoline, we use this, the best version of citricoline is called Cognizin. It took us like 2 years to get on the waitlist to get Cognizin in our product cuz it's, it's, um, it's always in such high demand. But that product, and you, anybody can buy a Cognizin or citricoline on their own. They don't need to get through Magic Mind, but that, that is a great approach to improve blood flow to our brain, which improves lateral thinking. Drinking a lot of caffeine, drinking a second cup, a third cup of, of coffee. Not only do you build a tolerance within 30 days— my, my parents, my mom and dad have been drinking coffee for 50— 2 cups for 50 years. For 49 years and 11 months, they've been in maintenance mode.

Exactly.

Just maintaining, getting back to neutral with those 2 cups. And they feel when they're out of neutral, they're like, oh, those— these 2 cups, I need them. Well, you do need them to get back to neutral, but you're not getting anything more than that maintenance mode when you drink those 2 cups after 30 days. If you add in a second cup, a third cup— if someone's listening to this and they add in like a fourth cup.

Yes.

They'll feel it for 30 days and then they're in maintenance mode. You can take about, uh, 12 days to get off and then get back into, you know, feeling that, right?

Cycling it, you mean?

Yeah, cycling it. But all this is to say that you aren't getting much of the benefit. You're just getting back to neutral. But every time, 50 years in, 5 years in, 55 days in, you are getting the negative effects of the vasoconstriction, the limited blood flow to your brain.

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Everything in Magic Mind outside of the caffeine does not build tolerance.

Really?

Oh, it's like I say, it's like the— you know, I almost tell people, like, if you can put aside the knee-jerk reaction of thinking this might be a commercial for, you know, some guy's own product— yeah, right— if you can put that aside, the ingredient choices are so fascinating.

Yeah.

That it's why we have you. You've had so many people take it, from elite athletes to the person that you wanted that You want us to send it to Italy? Italy recently, right? Like, they've tried everything.

Oh, I was going to say, A-list actors and actresses, athletes, moms, entrepreneurs, all alike. Everyone's obsessed with it.

Maybe the best cyclist of all time, which we won't even mention, that has tried everything else.

That's right.

And yet they're like, can you send more of that? And it's a—

that is— did I give you him too? Yes, I did. I'm giving you 100. Oh my God. I know. My Rolodex for you guys is pretty Fast.

Holy crap. It was— what was so nice about, uh, that one too was he, he took the time to also write a note back and he said, I've got to say, whatever you've done, uh, and this is so impressive because my wife, my wife actually loves this. And we get all these products sent our way. Of course she doesn't love any of them. It's rare for her to actually love one. So that was really kind. But the, um, but when I say, you know, if you can put that aside, it's a really fascinating dive into the ingredients that, like I said, you could buy on your own. You don't need to use cordyceps mushrooms, you can get on your own.

Cognizin, you can get on your own. Like, also like Like rhodiola and stuff like that. Rhodiola, you could buy, but is it as effective on its own or is it the combination and sequence together that makes it—

they call it the entourage effect. Yeah. So yeah, biohackers and all of our formulators and we have a scientific advisory board of these, these titans in this space. That's been a constant trek is how do we get the best minds around the table? Like Dr. Andrew Weil, who, if you've never had him on the podcast, he's great. He's amazing. He is so amazing.

I love him.

He's like the. The OG functional doctor that, that, uh, covered Time Magazine.

I actually really like him.

I would, yeah.

Can you put me in touch with him? I really do like him. He's so good. He's the best of all these people. I know.

And he's like, goes on to Joe Rogan. He doesn't have like a, he doesn't have some commercial interest. He doesn't, he's just like, hey, matcha is great for dot dot dot reasons. Uh, hey, rhodiola rosea is great for dot dot reasons. I'm like, mention Magic Mike. And he never does. He just keeps it so cool, you know, objective.

Yep. Yeah. Okay. You better hook me up to him. Oh, he is? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Patrick Wells, the head. Yeah. Shut up.

Dr. Dan Engel, who also goes on all the big podcasts. He's a brilliant neuro— he's unique because he's a neuroscientist and he's an MD and PhD. And he also overlaps with a lot of psychedelic research, which is really rare to get two of those, but all three is really rare. Great neurologist and neuroscientist and just has, he's so open to all plant alternatives to things. And there are no, no psychedelics in Magic Mind, even though the name, uh, some people think there are.

That's a lot of people always ask me that too. I'm like, no. So then, okay, so obviously clearly people love it. Um, there's 12 ingredients. You made it, you basically concocted this whole thing in your kitchen.

Yeah.

It's been around for how long now? Like 7 years, you said?

About 5 years.

Oh, 5 years.

I've been doing it myself, doing it on my own for about 12. From— it started, all started with a heart condition that limited how much caffeine I could have each morning.

And that's how it all started.

Half a cup of coffee. Yeah. Or I was like, coffee's the end-all be-all. I was drinking 6 to 7 cups a day, and my doctor was like, with your condition, you can't have more than half a cup. And I was like, there is no effing way I can get through it down to half a cup of coffee. And then he said this one thing, then we'll— we can wrap up the Magic Mind content, uh, and, and You know, the long-ass commercial.

The, uh, it's not even a commercial, people. I think people should know about this.

It's that good. Yeah. This, and this is a great point around green tea and, uh, and, or anybody that wants to add L-theanine to their, their morning, uh, ritual. He's the, this doctor, this brilliant doctor in, in San Francisco. He said, you know, with your condition, really can't have more than half a cup of coffee cuz it'll trigger your irregular heartbeat. And, uh, And I was like, dude, there's no way I can get through a day on half a cup. 'Cause like a true addict, that was my, like, yeah, it was the only thought from the day of hearing out a heart condition. We're gonna go next door to the ER and have your heart shocked back into rhythm. Like, I didn't care about any of that stuff versus him saying that. And he said, well, have you ever tried green tea? Green tea, it has this compound in it called L-theanine that extends your body's absorption of caffeine over a longer period of time and dials down the stress response for how much caffeine, for the caffeine that you're consuming. And I was like, wait. This Elethea stuff. Wait, there's a stress response and I could add this Elethea stuff that he just mentioned to my morning ritual to get more outta my first cup of coffee.

And that was 12 years ago. That was the beginning of my engineering brain going crazy down the rabbit hole of what else does nature and science give us to add to the morning ritual to get the most outta it?

And so how many do you drink a day?

Just outta curiosity, I drink one original and then in the afternoon, every once in a while I'll have a Magic Mind Free.

And then the sleep one. Okay. What's in the sleep one? Don't go into the— just tell me. Okay.

You have the best ingredients. My favorite ingredients in sleep are magnesium, chamomile. There's valerian root. And then I love lavender as well, but it's a low dose lavender.

So why does it work so well? Like, why are people— the Ontra.

So, okay. And this gets back to your question of the 12 ingredients.

And yeah.

So yeah, rhodiola is on par. On par. It's been shown in large-scale studies to be on par with low-dose pharmaceutical stimulants.

Which means I can say this, correct?

You can say whatever you want.

Rhodiola is supposed to be— and this is what a lot of people I know who are on Adderall or on all these ADHD medications, the natural, the, the natural occurring version of Adderall is supposed to be rhodiola. And so I know a lot of people—

rhodiola is so good for that. And then if you pair it with Bacopa monnieri, then that decreases impulsivity. By up to 40, 45%.

Really?

Yeah. So that you really feel locked in, your energy is higher and you feel super locked into the task you're working on. And no one knows these things.

And in India, nobody knows.

That's great. India and China, Bacopa's given to kids and adults way before they would give a pharmaceutical.

That's incredible. This other one that you just mentioned, what's it called?

Bacopa.

Bacopa. Like, do you, can you buy that on its own?

You can. Tastes awful. That's where 3 different science and food science teams that have helped us. Probably, it's probably $700K, 3 years, 3 different food science teams to get it to taste good.

Yeah, you guys spend a lot of money on the ingredient list. I mean, there's a reason why it's like, it's a, it's a very high quality product.

Yeah, I think 3 months ago it became the number 1 health shot in the natural, in the country, in the entire country, in the natural. Really? Yeah.

I'm surprised this—

Whole Foods, Sprouts.

I feel like it's been on a rocket ship for the last couple of years.

It's been fun to see it go from D2C in e-commerce and, uh, and biohackers and influencers in Silicon Valley loving it too. Now, yeah, it's been cool to see it in grocery stores and the same.

Where's that? Aero One?

Where else? It's the number one shot at Aero One, by the way. I think— do not quote me on this, Ed, you can clip this out if I'm wrong. I'll look out, look afterwards, but I believe, uh, last time I checked, it is the number 2 revenue beverage at all of Erewhon. And it is the number 1 shot in the natural channel, which means Whole Foods and Sprouts and Erewhon and natural grocers around the country. And now we just started to get into, um, conventional grocery, which would be places like Kroger and Albertsons and Publix and you know, the, the Southeast. So yeah, now you'll start to see it in those kinds of— which is so fun. I love it. Most of my family and friends back in Texas, they're not, you know, going to Whole Foods for every—

no, they're going to regular grocery stores, right? So it's fun. That's amazing. Okay, so that— okay, that's amazing. So tell me more about what your other rituals are daily, to kind of keep on point. So we know that you do this. What else? Because I know you're very spiritual and you're into all sorts of like meditations and Well, you—

so we talked on— we talked about looking— I love your shoes, by the way. Those are so cool. I've never seen shoes like that.

You have it? You know, you know what these are? They're called Sneaks. Do you know Sarah Blakely, who did Spanx? Yeah. So she sent me a couple of her—

those are so cool. For listeners that can't see, it's a high, high heel. They're like running shoes.

They're basically a high heel running shoe. They're, they're not the most beautiful to look at, but I will tell you, they are the most comfortable shoes I've ever worn. I thought like, I thought like when I first saw I'm like, oh my God, they're so horribly ugly. And then Jesse, her husband, Itzler, who is a friend of mine, sent me a couple pairs and I've been wearing them ever since. I think they look cool. They are amazing. They are the most comfortable shoes ever. And people can make fun all they want. But listen, put your foot in there. No, I think they look cool. You'll never not walk around with them again.

And then do you end up talking about it a lot? All the time. Because people are like, that's so unique.

People are usually guys are like, oh yeah, those are so cool. Girls are like, they're so ugly. How are you wearing them? Really? Yes.

Yeah.

But they're selling, I think.

I mean, function over form for guys. I guess like I'm like, that looks so much more functional.

So it's a functional— like for me, I mean, I don't know how to like walk in real high heels because I'm such a— I'm like a gym bro, but with long hair. Yes. You know, so for me, I have to— it's true. So I need to— I can't wear like stilettos. I will fall over and break my face. So I need to wear shoes that are very comfortable. So I wear these, and this is also not an ad. This is legit. This is something that I been wearing and I really like them because I can wear them with jeans and not look like a boy.

Sneaks. Dude, when I, so I took an Enneagram test and said I was a 7, meaning an Epicurean loves to go find things and tell the community. So I love like that, like just knowing someone's made a really high quality, cool looking product and now you attesting to the comfort.

I'm like, yes.

I want people to know.

Sneaks, sneaks, sneaks, sneaks, sneaks, sneaks. I'm telling you, you're like the 5th guy on this podcast to mention them.

They look so— they look like shoes from straight on. And then on the profile, I know, I was like, wait, what? Those are heels.

I know.

Very cool.

So people stop making— girls, stop making fun of me.

They're all going to be— you're ahead of the curve in a lot of ways.

Sarah's actually— Sarah Blakely's ahead of the curve. I'm just a follower, apparently. But I mean, they're really great shoes.

Well, you know, the, you know, the, uh, one of my favorite quotes I think of in entrepreneurship and in life, this is a Jeff Bezos quote. He said, innovators must be willing to be misunderstood.

Yes, totally agree with that.

I think about this all the time where if you can cultivate a willingness where it's not a, um, it's not a bug, it's a feature. If you can cultivate it, it's not like, oh, it's something you gotta put up with. It's like, that's your edge.

Yeah.

You are willing to be misunderstood. You don't really care, you can be— you can go from being 6 months ahead to 2 years ahead to 3 years ahead. And that can allow you all kinds of affordances in life. You become the maven where everybody just starts laying out what's next, what should I be— what— I'm sure everybody in your network asks you, it's like, what do you think about this product? What do you think about this supplement? What do you think about this cold plunging for women? And you're like, because I just didn't need to fit into— I didn't— I wasn't striving to be understood. I Got the answer for this 3 years ago.

100%. Also, it's so funny that you said that, James, because that does happen all the time. People like send me stuff for my opinion or whatever. And many years ago, actually like 10 years ago, maybe 8, I was actually, was it like the LA Times or some magazine like put me as like in the top 10 tastemakers in like the health and wellness space? Because I have like, you know, I created this whole thing called No Gym Required before No Gym Required became a thing. I created weighted shoes before, like, weight, you know what I mean? Like, I was always doing these things, but I was always like, like a, like 5 years before it became popular. And then it kind of exploded onto the scene, you know what I mean? So people who know me know it's like kind of like, yeah, like, and people laugh at me in the interim. They're like, oh my God, she's like, what is she doing? She doesn't know what she's talking about. Like, I was doing fitness stuff way before fitness and wellness and longevity became popular, you know.

Have you started your own company?

Yeah, I had, I started two. I had, um, I had a shoe. My first one was a weighted shoe that was basically the weight was like base, the, the sole or the was like a weight. So you can interchange, you can take out the weight and have a regular sole or have the weight. And the weight was evenly distributed so it'd be easier on your knees and your ankles. And it was like, it, I sold I don't know, like 100,000 pairs of these shoes on my own.

What happened?

Where'd it go? So what happened was, oh my God, this is like, this is a, this is a podcast on its own. I got acquired by a big company. So what happened? I sold so many shoes on my own. I factored the money. I didn't raise any money. So I was like paying a ton of interest on the money and the shoes were coming from Korea and they were heavy. So because of that, like it was costing me a lot. But all these made like the top 5, 'cause in the, in the, in the business, of shoes. There's not many. There's Reebok, Nike, you know, people were like, oh my God, how is this like girl selling all these shoes without a big $200 million a year marketing budget without all this? But I was giving out these shoes to every celebrity and they were wearing them around. And at the time, like those magazines, like, you know, Us Weekly and Life Style were really popular. So everyone was capturing these shoes in these magazines. So like all these companies were gonna incubate me and then I—

Did you wear 'em out and about and people wouldn't know that they— I would wear them out and about, like also like, yeah.

Yeah, like they were cute, but they would be in the shoe so you can't see it because ankle weights are really bad on your joints.

And they look weird to where it's like you look like a prisoner.

I look like it was— they were heavy, but they were cool looking. Yeah. And so like everyone was wearing them. Like Jennifer Garner was wearing them, Jennifer Aniston, whoever, like everybody. And so people are like, who the hell is this chick? And so I was going to be— I was getting offers to be incubated by all of these companies. And then I ended up going with this second-tier company because I really liked the man who was like who owned it. And he, this guy, this company owned a bunch of these like tier 2, tier 3 shoes that you would find like at TJ Maxx. It wasn't like a Reebok or a Nike. And I got the deal with him. And then once I did the deal with him, he wanted out of the deal and he basically like kind of screwed me. And so I, it was like, and to the whole deal last took so long that like by the time I was like legally okay, I already lost momentum on the shoes for so long. And it's still one of those like bees in my bonnet. Like I still think about that.

Let's bring them back.

I want to listen. I just had this conversation 2 weeks ago because I was like 10 years ahead of my time. And those shoes today in the wellness space would kill. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to show you a pair. That's the first thing. Because that one to this day, I should have made— I was young and and naive. I trusted this person.

Dude, I tell young founders all the time, first time founders, you might be 55, first time, but get your first startup out of the way. Oh, it's a burner brand. I learned so much. Your first pancake is the messiest. Get it outta the way. If you're successful, great. Otherwise you've got a cheap MBA.

Oh, you've no idea. I learned so much. I also have an MBA, but I learned so much. But the truth of the matter is like, if you get into business with someone who wants to screw you, who has more power, money, money and power, it's really hard when you're like this young girl.

Choosing your partners. Choosing your partner. That's the first lesson. So for it, it's like in life, in everything in life.

Yeah. Yeah. The second business I did, the second company was sold, got acquired by Weight Watchers. So I, I developed a, a fitness app.

Wait, how is this not coming up in our conversation?

But I don't talk about it cuz I, when I, with this podcast, I talk about the person who's here. I don't talk about myself. And weirdly enough, as extroverted as I am, I don't really talk about myself in that way. Like I, people always laugh at me, like my friends and family, like, I'm super like low-key and stuff like that. But people who know, know, you know, there are people who only know me as the entrepreneur. There are people who only know me as a fitness person who like does squats and lunges on Instagram. People who only know me as like the bigger, better, bolder person who does the, you know, the TED Talks. I'm very segmented.

I'm very, yeah, I'm similar in that. And I think that all of those different, a beautiful song has made it 3 or 4 chords, and I think they'll come together so beautifully over time to where you're, where you're like, yeah, oh, that's why it just felt destined that I would invest in these different areas that come together. Yeah. Because they certainly are coming together. But also add that I, I'm wired very similarly from building companies to investing in companies to making a lot of music, make a lot of music just for fun.

I love that. And it's, and magic.

Yep. And I love magic. As I was telling my wife two nights ago, I was like, yeah, I stopped doing magic cuz my friends made fun of me in 8th grade, but I'm gonna start bringing that back. You should. Yeah. Especially the little kids. They love it.

But, um, you should bring it back.

And that, by the way, that's a, the willingness to be misunderstood. That was the beginning of that.

That's why I'm bringing it up.

That was the beginning of me being like, oh, I wanna be understood. So I'm gonna get rid of these things that I'm, that I'm naturally, that I naturally love. But everybody listening, If you can lean into things that you loved when you're 6, 7, 8 years old, you will uniquely be preternaturally wired for that thing. Maybe took 30 years off, but finding a rediscovery of that— playing music was one of those things. There was no commercial reason. It was just, if I do this, you know, you know, uh, told me this that got me thinking in this direction. It was two experiences. One, I saw our 6-month-old daughter dancing to music. She didn't even understand. What music was, 6 months old, her face, it would— her face didn't even— there was no smile. She would hear music and within half a second her body would start moving. But our first daughter didn't have that response. And I was like, I'm wired that way. I always start tapping on everything. And I've kind of been like repressing music.

Yeah.

And when I told my dad I was making more music lately, he goes, oh, this is his response. Maybe 2 years ago, he goes, hmm, does that make any money? And I was like, oh, God bless you. That's been the influence in my life.

Totally.

For different pursuits. Like, it doesn't make money, so I shouldn't do it. But man, uh, Jen, when I started to make more music and when I leaned back into making music, all of these other things started to flourish because one, 70% of our brain is wired for movement. So you're lighting up the brain. The idea that you're gonna sit at your desk front of a computer screen and become creative and find creative solutions for things is so laughable. Um, when you look at the science that you wanna be walking around the, uh, proverbial, like throwing the ball against the wall, that's way better. Go out and play basketball, not because you're gonna play basketball, but the randomness of where the ball is gonna go, where you're gonna have to dribble it around is so great for lighting up the brain or music. And Einstein was actually like famous for leaving his office, playing a couple notes to the piano or on his violin, going back with some insight.

Also think about it, people who are not talented like that, even just going for a walk. Yeah. Lights up your brain. The cognitive power that you get just from moving your body in a walk. Like I, again, you get way better ideas.

Probably why you get great ideas at the gym.

I do. That's like, I, to me, I think there's a, the lack of the ability of people just to be with themselves and their thoughts because that's where like brilliance happens, or that's where like ideas happen to me, you know what I mean? I really believe that's like a very important piece of it. I wanna take a quick break from this episode to thank our sponsor Therasage. Their Tri-Light Panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go, and I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where honestly I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therasage Tri-Light everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to Therasage.com right now and use code BEBOLD for 15% off.

This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to Therasage, T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E.com, and use code Be Bold for 15% off any of their products. Also, I wanted to say something. I think you said something that was very true, which is being okay with being misunderstood. The other thing that I think is really valuable is that being under— it's, I think being underestimated is also very valuable.

Tell me more.

Because people don't even know what they're getting. Well, 'cause you were saying to me earlier about like this whole, when I was, when I was in the bathroom, I was just thinking about this. Some of, like, some of my secret powers have been being misunderstood, right? Because like people don't really know where to fit you, right? Like you, you can't pigeonhole me. I'm, I'm a podcaster, but I'm also an investor. I'm a fitness person, but I'm also had 2 successful exits. I'm a this person, but, and people don't know. So it's like constantly this ball. They're like, what do you do? I don't know who you are. What do you do? I hear that all the time. But that, that ability to be underestimated all the time, right? And then people get to know me in one lane and they're like, holy shit, how do you know all that? Or how do you do da da da? And that underestimation or being underestimated has served me so well in life. Because you shock and awe and surprise people constantly and they don't see you coming.

Well, you know, you know what's so great is that I think it's in building any identity, you can catalyze an identity by focusing on something early. You can catalyze an identity by getting tattoos, you know, dyeing your hair purple. You can do expedient things to catalyze an identity, and it doesn't usually last that long. Like, you could be the eccentric friend that has purple hair and a face tattoo, and it's like Yeah. Yo, Christine's really like, you know, really creative. And then they look at the output and they're like, ah, I don't know. And, and not very reliable. And, and your identity, you can really undo your identity on the other side of whatever shortcut you took. But the long-term investment into a unique singular identity, then it's like, and this is how I already talk about you with, with other people that, where we're mutual friends, I'm like, We already know it's Jen Cohen. Like, there's no other way of describing Jen. It's Jen Cohen. That is the, that's the pay dirt. Like, that is, that is the golden territory to where it's like, oh, you don't know Jen? Oh, you just, I don't even, I'm not even gonna try to explain it.

Go look her up and you need to know her. And I would hope that for my daughters. I would hope that for the founders that I work with, where if it's just like, he's the founder of Instacart. I know that he also feels like that's limited identification. Uh, maybe he did that for 10 years or, uh, a friend of mine, Porvez and Max, the two founders of Instacart. I know damn well that that would suck if 7 years later, that's just how they're, that's how they're known. 15 years later, it's how they're known. But that might be the way that they're known because it was so their identity burning hot so quickly early in their life. But I think if you invest in these other areas, like I, the last area that I, I am, uh, somewhat, somewhat followed for and known for is on philosophy in Venice. Every month, I, every first Friday do this thing called Philosophy Fridays, and it's this thing that started in our backyard with 5 people and now it's 200 people and it's 110 people that meet up every first Friday because the room capacity is 110 people standing room only and it's.

Around the 5,000-year-old philosophy of Vedanta comes from India. And it's, but it's really a perfect container for any philo— you could bring up Socrates, you could bring up St. Augustine. It's the perfect container for anything philosophical. Kant, uh, it could, you could bring up Hegel, Nietzsche, and anyone and everything in between because this is a great little container for, like we were talking about before, roots instead of the fruits. The stuff that I think about, you asked about my morning routine. It starts by waking up at 4:30 and it's an hour and a half of philosophy and spiritual just stillness. So it's about a 45-minute lecture of some, of some kind or reading. And then it's 45 minutes of journaling, reflecting. This, this, this ancient, it's old in terms of continuous study, is oldest philosophy on the planet. It's called Advaita Vedanta. And I have a daily podcast on this that like 11 people listen to, but I'm like, man, no one is. People would really benefit from an accessible approach to this very ancient cryptic philosophy. And it's the source of nearly all Eastern philosophy. Buddhism comes from, as it's described, the adage goes, Buddhism is Hinduism made for export as it leaves India and enters China.

You have Zen as a derivation as it leaves China and enters Japan. But if you follow it all back, they all go back to these four philosophical textbooks called the Vedas. A thousand years later, Hinduism and all the rituals and things get built on top of it, really kind of distractingly get built on top of it. Hence Buddhism strips a lot of that away to get back to this simple philosophy. But this philosophy, these philosophical principles, things like one principle is love is seeing no otherness in the world. Another one is wisdom is the capacity to see the end in the beginning. Another, which I've never heard definitions on these things. Another is, uh, reflection is 100,000 times more powerful than listening. The reason I mentioned that one is not only is that morning ritual just, it's all reflection time. I'm not reading anything new. There's a, a 3-year course on this philosophy that I've done now. I've done it 4 times. I'm on the 5th cycle through. It's nothing new. It's just reflecting on these things because like I mentioned, one of the principles is reflection is 100,000 times more powerful than listening. If there is a listener to this episode, this conversation that got anything that resonated with them out of the conversation, if you don't reflect on it, maybe it was the Jeff Bezos quote of innovators must be willing to be misunderstood.

If you hear that and you like driving your car, like that was really cool. And maybe you tell a significant other spouse that night over dinner, this cool phrase, but you never think about it again. If you're not spending 7, 10, 14 days Just reflecting on that for 5, 10, 15 minutes with your morning coffee, with your magic mind for 10, 15 minutes before you get started with your day. It is like it never even happened. 'Cause you know, you know this when you click on something so inspiring on, on Instagram, you like it, maybe even send it to a friend, but if you don't reflect on it 2 days later, it's like it's in one ear, out the other. Yeah. It's like it never happened.

It's like it never happened.

The reflection in this philosophy so brilliantly. And precisely the words around the Sócrates, they're so precise, but it so precisely enforces this, reinforces this, this beautiful notion that reflection isn't just like twice as powerful, 10 times, it's 100,000 times more powerful than listening or reading. So I, every morning, 90 minutes of just reflecting on these things, and now it's a decade into this. Philosophical pursuit, these studies, but that will serve the conversation that I'm having. Like the conversation, what I'm coming to with this, the investor meeting or a podcast conversation is seeing no otherness in the world. What is Jim interested in? What would make this a fun conversation for listeners? That kind of even asking Ed during the quick bathroom break, what, what are the things that, what are the things that we said that were interesting to you? And that's, um, and it's so ingrained in how I operate. So someone might see, uh, multiple 9-figure businesses. By the way, the first one didn't stay there. It was valued at $400 million before a fire sale to Airbnb and total PhD and triple PhD in what not to do. But there was so much reflection on what not to do.

What mistakes did I make? So much reflection on that. That then it allows for this beautiful clarity to where Magic Mind has been like a 5-year journey where every night I'm going to bed just being like, how did this all happen? I've never gone to bed feeling like stressed about it.

Not a single time.

Really? No, not a single night. I've never had, I've had maybe stressful hour of how do we figure this out? A stressful 3 hours of like, oh my God, our financial model is wrong.

Yeah.

We're gonna run out of money and have to I could have solved for that in like 3 days, but it was like 2 hours and then it was clarity. Literally go, go for a walk. And then I'm like, oh, we could, well, this investor loves us. This customer loves us so much. He's, he's been a subscriber for 3 years and he loves investing in companies. Maybe he would want to invest. Maybe she would want to invest. And yeah, it's maybe max 3 hours of stress, but I've never had a stressful day. Never woken up in the middle of the night thinking about some existential thing or some made up pretend thing. Oh, you're lucky. And I, my previous lives in my 20s, it was failure after failure after failure. And every night stress at waking up in the middle of the night about this, that, or the other kind of stress.

Well, how did Tilt, like you just said it yourself, it was evaluated at $400 million and then it was a fire sale at the Airbnb. What the hell went wrong?

Oh my God. Besides everything. What is part 2 of the episode?

It's, I know, right?

And there's, it's kind of like when you get a PhD, asking somebody that gets a PhD, what'd you learn?

I know.

So, so many things, but I'd say the number one thing that I crystallize it down to where it's helpful for— there are a lot of things that I learned where I utilize it every day and, and utilize that reflective learning for anything, even how I run a meeting or how I, I elicit feedback from somebody. Um, like I'll ask people, what is your brutal, honest feedback on that product? That is a total learning where I was so scared of the truth in my 20s. I never asked people, I wouldn't, and when I do, what do you think? But I'd be like, how do I couch this into something that's gonna be pleasant to hear?

Like non-confrontational.

Yeah, exactly. Where it's like, no, Jim, be as brutal as, as you possibly can because it doesn't help the company if, and then for 2 years it was iterating on the product before we ever launched Magic Mind. And it was 2 years of me wanting that versus my 20s was something like Tilt, a payments platform that we were in through the skin of our teeth. We were able to sell to Airbnb, but certainly not at the heights of our valuation that we achieved.

How much did you sell it for? Are you allowed to say?

It was about, uh, the cash and stock was about $55 million.

$55 million.

But we had raised our previous round of funding was at $385 million.

I remember I, you, you guys raised $385 million at it.

No, we raised, uh, a total of $70 at at the last valuation. Oh, okay.

The last valuation. So you raised $70 million.

Yeah, we raised $70 million and sold for $55 million, which ain't a good, that ain't a good equation.

No, it is not that good. No. So did your investors talk to you still?

Every meaningful investor has invested in me multiple times. In fact, so I was thinking about this on a run yesterday. Justin Kan, the, the co-founder of Twitch, I'm sure you've seen this in your entrepreneurial journey too. You think they won't talk to you.

And I thought I was like, I was teasing you.

Nobody. You, I bet you've seen this. You're like the best investors. They're like, you just got a PhD on what not to do. I wanna invest in you again and again. Justin Khan, the co-founder of Twitch, he's invested in me 4 times. Mike Maples, maybe the OG seed investor of all time, the best seed investor, the first investor in Twitter and Lyft and a bunch of companies. He's invested in me 4 times.

Because it's you. That people invest in the person. So many variables make a company break, right? Make or break it. Like it could have, like you said, it was like on the skin of your teeth, you sold it for $55 million. But like the line between ex— like, like excellence and just like unicorn to like a complete failure is like this, this thin. You know what I mean?

Crazy, crazy margin. Airbnb had to launch 3 times. And still had like the year that they were going to go public and where I was like, all the stock is going to finally be worth it. 10 years of doing things. And the year they go public, the first global pandemic in 100 years that shuts down travel the year that they're going public. And I'm like, why does everything I work on just fail? It's just like once in 100 years.

Oh my— exactly.

The biggest travel company is going public and then this happens. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, and then luckily they ended up having one of the best IPOs of all time. But that, and it's, every company has these near-death experiences. Facebook, Uber famously just dragged in the mud for 3 years.

Uber like that.

You didn't think they were gonna survive.

I, I kept, they came back like with, like they came back on a rocket ship. Right. Because do you like their CEO? He's a really good CEO, right?

Yeah. Dara.

Dara.

Did he really kind of take that company and He did, made some amazing moves. And honestly, just a lot of these companies, Apple famously almost died a couple times when Steve was there. When he, when he came back, they had 6 weeks of cash when he came back. Tesla famously almost at death's door. And, and I, you know, that's another learning that I had was I just was so scared of it failing that I thought, well, it's going in the wrong direction. We should find a place that we should sell, not realizing, no, every company, if you're lucky, you get a third act where up to the right, then it comes down, and then the third act, you rise again like a phoenix, and then you're unstoppable. And until the— so I was mentioning that there's so many things that I use each day, like how I elicit product feedback. But the thing that I tell early founders, maybe the first or second time founder, the thing that I say most often is wait until your product is loved before you try to scale out your business and obsessively, myopically, tunnel vision focus on getting to that point and nothing else.

With Tilt, it was a payments technology that was lukewarm liked. People kind of liked it. It was good, but as soon as they liked it when it was free, as soon as we tried to charge for it, it's kind of like Venmo. As soon as you try to charge for it, people are like, well, PayPal's free or Zelle's free. People balance. And you could have a good product, but a terrible business. And we had a good product, but it wasn't loved enough to where anytime we tried to charge people 2%, 5%, they would bounce. And we realized way too late, we're scaling a product that people like, lukewarm like, but they don't love. Like your shoes. Had you tried to sell shoes where it's kind of a derivation of what's out there, people don't really love them. You're such a charismatic, persuasive person. You could force 10,000 pairs to be sold, but you'd get to 32,000 and be like, this is just getting harder and harder. And it's because the product isn't loved yet. And with Magic Mind, it was, I, I literally was like, I will put my own capital into this and I wanna be told in the first 2 years that people don't want this cuz these journeys are so brutal that I wanna find out in 2 years and not 6 or 7.

Yeah.

Like I'd found out before that. People don't want this so that I can go on to the next thing. And luckily—

Totally. That, by the way, is another really good piece of advice. You've given a couple of really good, like, good solid, like more than a couple, like probably 4 or 5 solid gems here. That's another one, which is if a product's just liked, it doesn't have the threshold to make it.

The gravity that pulls it in.

The gravity. Yeah. It has to be loved. You're 100% right. And this does. So that's interesting. You're right. Because Tilt, like, yeah, whatever. They liked it.

It's kind of like Venmo, but it's also, you can do it with 12 people. It was, it was a real learning of do not rest on your superpowers. Reserve those superpowers.

Yes, so true. How do you get a product to be massively loved? Because like, that's okay.

Super simple. Time. Time and an obsession with the truth. Brutal, honest feedback from people. First-time founders, there's, we, we, myself included, my 20s, I just wanted to be, not only did I think it was like, this is a shortcut to ego engineering. This is a shortcut to the career that I really want. This is a shortcut to financial milestones. Yeah. And, and it was like, I'm doing this selfishly because I would have some cool articulated mission, but it was really just selfish on 3 different channels, and I, and I was so, I was so impatient to get there on those that I was like, I'm going to brute force this. Like my, one of my superpowers was being persuasive or being really persistent. And with, with Magic Mind, it was a beautiful thing to reserve those cards and say, yeah, I have these cards, but I only want to apply them. It's like a surfer. You could surf multiple waves, wait for the wave of the day. Wait for and surf some great waves, you know, leading up to that. That's how you find the wave of the day is you surf a few, but wave selection, that is, that is an art form all in its own, whether you're a surfer or whether you're an art entrepreneur where you could do anything, but you can't do everything.

And if you are really good at, let's say, 3 paddles popping up on a wave and you can ride it for 300 yards, 300 meters. This set's coming, choose the best wave, obviously. But if you're so eager to just prove that you could ride a wave, that the other people are looking, they doubt you, and you're going to prove it to them, you're going to jump on a shit wave, you get detonated, and not only not get the validation, but also you're going to be hesitant to ride the next set that's coming.

Great analogy.

And, and I think with— if you can have time, recognize that it's a, uh, it's so much of it is like you said, You can have the same founder that chooses the wrong wave in a dog market, and that market is going to destroy them. Same founder that waits for the right wave, maybe is really patient with— imagine when I was 2 years of like, universe, show me that you don't want this to exist because the last go around was so fricking painful, nearly killed me. I want to be shown early. This is a bad wave. And luckily that patience allowed us to iterate. I was iterating on the product to make it better and better and better. Before it even had like a name to it, I just called it James's Magic Potion.

James Magic Potion.

James's Magic Potion.

Yeah. A little— that sounded like— that sounds like a horrible name.

And I wanted it. That's brutal honesty. Yeah. And Jen, you know what was funny is I, I was like, this tastes awful, doesn't have a name, and I'm shipping people a little, uh, these little bottles with powder that you have to add your own water to. And I was like, I luckily with investing or someone that has other jobs with you have it. If you have another day job, then you don't have this undue unnecessary financial pressure. But what was so fun about those 2 years, or what was helpful about it, I should say, is I was like, if people want this when it has a dumb name, basically no name, tastes awful, and they've got to add the water themselves, that's when I'll know that I have something that's worth It's, and I say this in, in product building to founders all the time, if they'll buy it when it's ugly, they will pay a shit ton when it's pretty.

Wow. So that's what you did.

And that's exactly what we did for, it's what I was doing outta my kitchen for 2 years.

And so are you're constantly iterating the product. So was William's job to like run the operations?

Yeah. So like once I knew we had something, yeah, you're like, I was like, I gotta get a co-founder that's really great on all the things I'm not great at. And this is part of the PhD too, of my twenties, uh, triple PhD. 'Cause there's 3 failures in my twenties, just failure after failure. How old are you now? At this point I was 32.

Okay. How old are you now though?

40? Uh, just turned 40. So I guess I was 32, 7 and a half years ago was the beginning of the 2-year journey. Is there something here?

Yeah.

And we launched about 5 and a half years ago.

Okay.

And, uh, so I brought him on about 5 years ago and I was like, all right, I know what I'm great at, which is I know this I know this world of products like the back of my hand. Yeah, I know e-commerce like the back of my hand and brand building, but I do not know supply chain management, logistics of these things, cash flow. And you mentioned with the shoes being so expensive coming from Korea, it's a whole art form in its own right of cash flow management.

I was crushed.

Yeah. And then retail, I know nothing about expanding into grocery and retail. And he knew all there was is to know about that with built brands that he had built before. He's a brilliant Princeton grad and just like, where did he come from? He was building a brand called Brawny. If you've ever seen Brawny in Air One, it's the protein, protein pasta.

Yeah, I have seen it.

He was a co-founder of Brawny. Yeah. Co-founder of Brawny and was on the operations side. So he just knew his superpower is, is all of these things that managing a retail sales team, looking at a spreadsheet for financial modeling.

It stands us all really well.

It's a, it is a really powerful 1 1 3. But this gets to also one of the PhDs is knowing what you're not good at, knowing what you're good at, and then also knowing what makes a great partner, what makes a bad partner. The only way to learn these things, it's like surfing. I can't tell you, you can't read a book and, and know how to do these things. That's why I tell everybody, get your first business. If you have inclinations, wanna start something, get it outta the way to get the— which was more valuable for you? The businesses you, you started or the MBA you got?

The MBA I got for sure.

Really? Tell me more.

Oh no. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, the MBA I got from school? No. Yeah. Which was more valuable? No. Okay, this is— this proves you have no clue who I am. I just did an entire TED Talk called—

I'm not on socials. My assistant does all— nearly all of my socials.

It hasn't been released yet technically, but I just did a whole TED Talk on why your barbell is more important than your MBA. Because I have both, and I learned almost nothing from my MBA. I mean, except like how to memorize and to, you know, spend a lot like the, the amount of money it costs to get the MBA. But everything I've learned that has been valuable to me has been way more valuable in being like practical experience and doing it, right? And fitness stuff. Like fitness has actually taught me way more. It gave me, gave me the best MBA I could have ever had because it taught me discipline. It taught me, it taught me a ton of things, but like patience, discipline, hard work, perseverance, perseverance, persistence, doing something even when you don't want to over over and over and over and over again. To me, that's the best training ground. So like, I learned more on like, on the, like at the squat rack than I did in my MBA program. And I tell everybody that, and people like, a lot of people like poo-poo me who have like Princeton degrees and Harvard degrees.

Honest to God, does it teach you, does it give you some type of status? Yeah, it can give you some status to get you in the door, but it will not make you successful. It will not, teach you the fundamentals and the foundation of what real success is in life.

I don't think so.

Yeah.

I, it's, you know, we can, we mentioned the, the Warren Buffett quote, uh, before on better business person makes him a better investor. Being an investor makes him a better business person. And it actually ties closely to his longtime partner Charlie Munger.

Mm-hmm.

Who is one of the best, both of them. Um, two best investors of all time, and they're talking about having multiple perspectives and multiple pursuits and how they help each other. Charlie Munger had his own version of this where he said everybody should have a cross-latticework of mental models, that you should take how you play bridge or poker into how you run a business, how you run a business into how you parent your children, how you parent your children into how you— maybe it's play tennis on the weekends, but the cross-lattice work is so different than our academic notion of mastery where we think it's go deep into just playing the piano 24/7 for 30 years and then you'll be an amazing aficionado or whatever. Yeah. And, and it's like, well, that's the most boring person at the frickin dinner party. Because they can't apply it elsewhere. They make for great employees. They make for great, uh, playing and replaying Chopin, but they're not a Chopin.

They're not a Chopin.

And you, you look at someone like, um, Isaac Newton. Isaac Newton, perfect example. Study— we know him for physics, maybe the greatest scientific mind of all time. He spent a third of his time on theology, trying to prove that God exists, a third of his time on alchemy, trying to turn lead into gold, and a third of his time in math. And physics. There's no, like, removing those other two. They all fed into each other in the same way that— yeah, working out. I— when I'm— when you— when you're saying that, I think about me playing music and writing a song. That is one of the biggest— I said one of the biggest things that I'm doing that then informs how we're working on the, let's say, Sleep 2.0 launch, is it's a story arc, and every song is a story. And if I don't know, mismanage that story for a song and the different characters of instruments that come in, you're gonna mismanage the listener's perception in the same way you mismanage a press release around a new product.

It's interesting you say that. I think fitness personally is like a microcosm of life. I really do. And I, and I use it as that. So like people think when like I talk about fitness being so important, they think because it's for your abs and for your glutes and for, I think the fitness element for me anyway, and what I've seen from a lot of people is that it's the mental that it builds. It builds you, it makes you more mentally strong. It, it shows you that you can kind of go beyond your limit and surpass your limit and with your goals. And I think that like if you can take that same, those same, those, those same principles and apply it to everything in life that you wanna be good at, you will thrive. And so to me, that's why fitness has been such an important piece of my life. And why I tell people early on, like young people who, who contact me, if you want to be successful, start working out now, start exercising right now.

Amen. I'd say, uh, I think about in the same way I think about these kinds of things with surfing, where it is such a beautiful— I mean, every— the truth rhymes everywhere. You see it everywhere. If it's the truth, it's going to show up everywhere. And it rhymes in the way that you learn to surf. It's, it's going to rhyme in the way that you run a meeting. It's going to rhyme in the way that you build a company or build a relationship. Talk about choosing the right waves. The relationships you're building— like, send a, a great human into a really toxic relationship, they're not going to come out too great on the other side.

Totally true.

But if they chose a different wave a different partner, a different friend, a different business partner, then it can be the most beautiful ride of their lives.

And it's a so true.

And I, with the, the wor— the so true working out and the fitness approach to fitness, you know, one of the things that, uh, that I think about so often, and this is, uh, comes from Tim Ferriss, uh, where he said just one pushup. He said this randomly in a podcast episode. Where he's like, if you are wondering where to start, right before bed, right when you wake up, right after lunch, close the office door, right when you get home from work, just do 1 pushup. And that was an entry point into now everything that I'm doing and working out started with, God, that's such an easy entry point. 'Cause once you get down on the ground and do 1, you're like, I'm gonna do 10.

That's why it's a gateway drug for everything. It's like, and the hardest thing is the beginning. Is the start, right? So a good mind trick that I tell people all the time is, you don't like to work out? That's okay. Do 1 minute. Go outside and jump around for 1 minute. Just jump. Yeah. You know, or just walk around your block once, or do 1 squat. I don't say 1 pushup. I say 1 squat, 'cause squatting could be easier. The point is, once you start, then chances are you're gonna keep on going. You know, 1, once around the block will turn into like 2 or 3.

Totally.

You know what I mean? 'Cause it's about getting your shoes on and starting the process. Is the procrastination is what, what stops the start, you know? Totally. Once you're in there, you're like, well, I'm already here, I'm on the floor anyway, I might as well do another 5 push-ups.

And you're not— and you're not working against your other goals. It's so beautifully harmonious when you recognize your fitness is going to feed your other goals, like you getting the best ideas you get when you're at the gym, or moving. 70% of your brain's wired for movement. Get out and move. That'll help you. Not only will it help you problem solve the thing that you're working on, but so beautifully might help you avoid the mistake that you're this close from making with some suboptimal decision.

It also makes you so much more resilient. There's been a study that shows that people who are like fit or like work out regularly, they are much better at like dealing with struggle and with, of course, like, like setbacks and all those things. Like they're able to bounce back back, was it like 80% quicker than people who are more sedentary? Because they've primed their brain.

The neural pathways of like, go further, go further.

They prime their brain for like, for failure. Because every day you're going in the gym and the purpose of the gym is to like get to failure, right? So that is like, you're already primed for that feeling. So when you can take that and transfer it into anything else in life, that means may not go your way, you can bounce back much quicker.

Yeah. There's a, a great investor that he was on our, he was a board observer for our previous company, Marc Andreessen. And one of the conversations we had one time was around, around this idea of to avoid terminal failure. Like let's say losing and being the last on the PGA Tour. To avoid being last on the PGA Tour, you want to consume like crazy non-terminal failure. You want to go and hit as many balls as you can. You want to miss the cup over and over again from 5, 10, 15, 25 feet. You want to hit that failure point at the gym as often as possible. It's not about avoiding failure at all. If anything, it's the exact opposite of exactly what you're saying. It is not the exact opposite of what you're saying, but it's the exact opposite of avoiding failure. It's running towards failure so frequently in the non-terminal sense where it's like, who cares if you miss a 3-pointer in practice? If you miss the free throws in practice, eat that up like a bit of poison to where you're completely immune to it.

Immune to failure.

To me, to failure. By the time you get to the free throw line with 11 seconds left in the 4th game of the Game 7 Finals, you're like, dude, I, I'm not only, I know I'm gonna make these, but I'm immune to—

They're desensitized if you don't make it.

Exactly. Desensitized to it. And it getting to that place where you are avoiding terminal failure, paradoxically, it's through chewing it up every day at every chance you can in the non-terminal sense.

You know, it's really fun. Well, I'll tell you again, I, I, my first TED Talk was on this idea. It was called the Temperance.

I've seen that. I've, I've seen your TED Talks, but I was maybe, I saw one maybe 2 years ago.

Was that on parents and resilience for kids?

I didn't reflect on it, so I, it was in one ear out the other. And I should have, oh, let's see, I should have reflected more on it, but it was, It was beautifully articulate, but I don't remember. I just know the setting. I know the setting.

The first one went crazy viral and it was about this idea of asking for what you want in life.

Yes, I do remember this one.

Yes. And so, and the whole idea and basically being bold and going out loud. Yeah. And, and like the 10% target is based around this, which is the idea that you become immune to failure because if you make 10, my whole thing is 10% target because you make 10 attempts of whatever you want most in life. And either two things happen. Either you get that thing or another opportunity presents itself that you didn't know existed because you went, you went and did it over and over and over again. But the, the secondary thing that happens is you become immune to the feeling of failure because now you're used to it. You're doing it so much.

Perfect example was I wanted to know, and I still do all the time, people's brutal, honest feedback on anything I'm creating as soon and as early as possible. And as frequently as possible, because that's the way to avoid— well, I know the alternative. In my 20s, avoiding that leads to terminal failure and a whole lot more pain.

100%. My gosh, this has been a really good podcast.

Thank you, Jen. Thank you for the conversation.

No, this was really good.

Well, you're a great host.

Thank you. You're a great guest. You actually gave some— I shouldn't sound surprised. I'm not surprised. You have some very valuable information for people on every level. You gave some really great wisdom, great gems, I'm really happy that you came on.

Well, for a simple Texan with a little drink company, I try— I aim to serve, especially on a podcast.

You've served beautifully.

Well, you, you're a great host, and it's— you are interested in these topics in a different gear because you apply them instead of just a podcast host that's kind of a journalist that doesn't really know where they apply. So thank you for being such a great sharer of this wisdom.

No, no, I, I, I, I I really, um, have loved this conversation. You were such a good— thank you, James. We have to do this again.

Let's do it.

We'll do it on your podcast.

Whenever.

Whenever you want. James has a podcast.

That's right. Yeah. If people wanna find out anything of my projects from Magic Mind to the, uh, the philosophy podcast, uh, just James J. Bashara on Instagram is the best, best place for all of it.

And try a Magic Mind. You guys will not be disappointed.

As you know, we've hard— worked hard to make sure that, uh, people get to say that all the time.

Absolutely. So thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.