Transcript of Episode 555: Jamie Siminoff: Why "Acting Like a CEO" Killed More Startups Than Failure Ever Did

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. Do you know the story of Rolex? No, it's a non-for-profit. It is. Rolex is a non-for-profit company.

Hold that thought. We should, okay, I'm gonna keep this in the podcast. That is crazy.

I wanna tell you a story.

Guys, I wanna tell you who people who you are, 'cause I'm already going. This is gonna be on the podcast.

Okay, great.

Okay, so we have, uh, Jamie Siminoff, just F by, by the way. Then we're gonna tell you the Rolex story in 2 seconds. Jamie is the founder of Ring. He sold it for $1.1 billion.

1.15. I mean, it doesn't matter.

I mean, just like, you know, semantics here a little. Okay. And it was, it was bought by Amazon. He then went to, it was acquired, but now you're, you went to work with, for Amazon and then you stopped?

Stayed for 5 years.

Okay.

I was just, I mean, I was kind of burnt and whatever. Left for a little bit and then I came back last. I've been back like a year now.

Okay, then you came back to run—

Been back.

Now he's back at Amazon to run Ring. Right. Okay. Now, before we even talk about you, tell us the Rolex story.

Well, so these guys do this podcast called Acquired.

Yeah.

And what I think is interesting is some of the ones they do are companies I just never would've known about. And Rolex, which we all know as, I guess, a company, or we thought.

Yeah.

Is actually like, it's, I think it's like the largest non-for-profit in the world or something, or one of them.

It's a— I've never heard that.

Secretive non-for-profit thing that was started by this guy during World War I. Oh, wow. And he basically invented the watch because when, um, when you're in, when you're fighting in a war, it turns out that everything was a pocket watch. And so to be able to see time, if you're like sitting with a gun or something, like you can't, so like he basically put the pocket watch on your wrist. So it's like a crazy story.

How did it become a nonprofit though?

Like, how did that, uh, somehow I think, I mean, cause it was so old, I think when he died or something, like gave it to this thing and it became like a charitable foundation. Um, oh, and so it's like this gigantic company that's not a company, that's like this brand. It's, it's just wild. So it's, it's a great, I, I mean, to anyone, it's a, you know, it's a great podcast to listen to of a story that I think most people just had no idea of. Yeah, I had zero, like no, no idea about it.

I was basically like schooling Jamie before you, you know, before this whole thing of what podcast he listens to. Has he heard of this? Does he like it? He's not wasting his time. People do listen to it. And then that's how this whole story happened in the first place. So this is like an, a unique way of start an intro.

Yes.

But, but, but I like the uniqueness of it.

Yeah.

Okay. Now let's talk about you. Okay. So Jamie has a lot of, I'm sure we can glean a lot of great information from you because you really are like an entrepreneur's entrepreneur. I've read a ton of stuff about you and what I really loved, I was saying this to you before, like I really like what I love about you is that you, from what you've said about yourself and what other people have said, that You just have a lot of grit and you are just super persistent. And it wasn't that you, in your words, not the most savvy smart guy, but you work really hard.

I, I mean, it's definitely my superpower is like, I just keep pushing, just keep grinding and grinding and grinding.

And so this is what the show's all about. Like, I, that's obviously why it resonates so much. Yeah. Habits, hustle, similar to that with you, like to you. So can you just start from the beginning? I know you were a serial entrepreneur before Ring even happened. So what were you doing? Like, how did this whole, the whole Ring thing even start?

I mean, serial entrepreneur is like another word for failing entrepreneur, I'd say.

Okay.

I mean, 'cause it's like people would say like, oh, it's so great, you're a serial entrepreneur. And it's like, yeah, I mean, I've started all these things. It's just 'cause none of them actually like became anything impactful. Yeah. And I think, and, and my type of entrepreneur is more of an inventor than an entrepreneur. Mm-hmm. So I think there's just different, like, types. We were talking even earlier, like, there's like all these people that built, like, there's people that just build companies and sell them. There's like people that whatever, like, I'm more of an inventor. Like, I like to build something that solves a problem. And the best thing an inventor can do is solve a lot of people's problems. So like, like the more people you solve the problem for, the better. And so I had started a bunch of things. I did voicemail to text so you could like read your voicemail, which when you had BlackBerrys and you were getting all these voicemails, but that was also at a time when voicemail was declining and it just never really took off. And so I kind of made a tiny bit of money with it, but not really.

So I did a bunch of these things that were like cute, great ideas, didn't really take traction. I'm a serial entrepreneur, which means I just couldn't find anything that worked. And then I finally, I mean, it was like when I hit Ring, like I finally hit something that really resonated at scale and then I could work on to build something, you know, massive.

Well, also you were solving, you, it's interesting 'cause I, I think I heard you say this, uh, like if you were gonna, if you were to build a doorbell, doorbell company, it wouldn't have probably scaled and worked the way it is. But you kind of had a different approach or you kind of were solving more of a security, a neighborhood problem. Or can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah. And I, and I got, I mean, luck, luck has to be your copilot.

Mm-hmm.

And so I got there in, in a lucky way. I was in the garage, literally like working in my garage and inventing stuff like all these other things. I couldn't hear the doorbell. I had just gotten an iPhone and I'm like, oh, well the iPhone, like there must be a doorbell that goes to the iPhone. Right. Uh, this is in 2011. I looked online, there's no doorbell that goes to the iPhone, so I built one.

How did you know how to build one though?

I just like, I am a tinkerer. Like I've always, since I've been a kid, like I'm like, I like when I needed something, I go in the basement and build it.

Like MacGyver.

I am like MacGyver. Like, yeah, I'm like a, like a gritty MacGyver.

So you basically like have like a what, like a paper, like a, like a toothpick and a paperclip?

I mean, not far off. I mean, I basically, I went to Fry's, which was a, you know, back then there was, there was Fry's, which is like where all the electronic stuff was. Especially like that kind of longer tail of electronics. And I bought a Wi-Fi camera and, 'cause there was Wi-Fi cameras, there's lots of 'em actually. And I kind of soldered and hacked something up to make it work like a doorbell.

But how did you even, like, how did you know how to do that? Like at the time it wasn't ChatGPT. I guess you can Google like how to do this or—

I mean, I think the best way to do anything is just like get the soldering iron out and break it. Like, I mean, just shock yourself. Like, I mean, you know, like it's like just that I've, I've always been someone who like, like the first thing I do is something is take it apart.

Oh, okay.

So I mean, I just always like, that's, that's my natural curiosity. So like to me, like trying to build a doorbell from a Wi-Fi camera was like, okay, like, let's see what happens. Like, let's see if it happens. If I like, if I do this, if I spike this, can I get an alert to come out? Like, you know, it's like, and so I just kind of played with it, built this, like kind of hacked this thing up. I called it DoorBot because door robot sounded funny. I'm like a guy in a garage, put it on my front door. It's this giant thing. And my, I sort of like get my wife to use it. And she said it made her feel safer at home. And that was the start of this aha moment, right? All sort of home security, everything around, like everything until that time was not being built in a way to deliver presence, to actually try to reduce crime in neighborhoods, to like to impact it. It was all built in like a pre, pre-phone, pre-connection, and that you could rebuild all home security basically in a new way. So that was the— and that aha wasn't like immediate, but that was like the start of that aha moment, which is still today's— our mission is to make neighborhoods safer.

Making neighborhoods safer is what built Ring into being the world's largest home security company, which I'm pretty sure it is today.

If you really actually think about it, I— most people I know have the Ring, like have a Ring.

Most good people.

Yeah.

Like most good people.

Like you actually created like, you know, Kleenex, you know, tissue. Like that's kind of what you did. You created the same kind of— for that analogy, like an entire like vertical or iterate like a whole different category.

It's a, it's a category. And our brand is the brand of the category. I mean, you'll hear people say, you know, sometimes on the news you'll see like another camera. Yeah, I know it's another camera. They say the Ring camera caught them. Like, that wasn't a Ring camera. And I just smile because it's, I mean, it's like, what an amazing, I mean, it's like, pinch me. I'm like a kid from Jersey who likes to tinker in his basement and, you know, created something that like will be like, it's almost like multigenerational. I mean, it's the, it is incredible.

So, okay, so how long did it actually take you to build? Like, was that the first iteration of how many, how many iterations iterations of that did you do at the beginning?

Like I'd say hundreds of iterations overall, because you're just kind of constantly doing it. Like you're not even keeping track. And it took us till 2014. Like we, we, so it was about 3 and a half years of—

who's we, by the way? Who was with you?

It was like me and then like a, like one or two kids in the garage basically. So like literally, and they both, August and John, and they still work for Ring today.

So who were, who were these guys?

John was kind of a, he was, went to Philadelphia University and was like a kind of a, like a designer. But like more like graphic designer who I forced to become a mechanical engineer. I'm like, John, if you can draw it, why can't you just do this? And he's like, okay, boss. Like, you know, we have like—

I love that.

And then August was just like, I went to Berkeley, went to Boulder and was just a jack of all trades kind of guy. And so between the three of us, we just kind of did it and then, you know, brought in a couple engineering people.

And were they your partners or like equal partners or were they working with for you or—

No, I was the founder.

You were the founder, the only founder.

Only founder.

And so did they get like, did you say, hey, if you do this with me, I'll give you 10%? Or did you just pay them a salary?

They got some equity, but it was more salary. Yeah. Like, I mean, I mean, it was, you know, it's like you put yourself back in that position. I mean, I would have probably if they said to me no salary and I'll take 10%, I'd probably sure.

Right.

You know, at the time. But like they needed, they were like young guys that needed money to live. And so I paid them and, you know, I raised a little bit of money to do it and So how much did you initially raise? The first raise was, it was under a million dollars. I think it was $500,000. I think it was the first one.

And so what, how far along were you before you even started to raise $500,000?

Like that, that, like, that was right out, like that was in off the, out of the gates. Like I kind of, yeah, I kind of raised that.

And so when did you go on Shark Tank and get rejected?

Like, that was 2013.

Okay. So you started in 2010, you said? '11?

So it started like a, like build. So I was, and I was in my garage trying to build other stuff. So that's actually what I raised the money for was this. Called Edison Junior, which was like a lab to build ideas, basically.

Really? Yeah. And so, like, kind of like an incubator?

Kind of like an incubator, yeah, of like our own ideas. And that's like, I was, I had these other things I was trying to build, and that's what I couldn't hear the doorbell. So, um, I don't know, it's wild.

So then what, like, so how did it go from that and then 2 years later being on Shark Tank, not as a shark?

So, no, I mean, it's like so nonlinear that it's crazy. So Yeah, I look for a doorbell, can't find one, build one. My wife says it makes her feel safer at home. Like, that's kind of cool, but still not an aha moment. We're building this, like, thing called Edison Junior. We're trying to put— we had hardware products mostly, and we were trying to put them on Kickstarter to get them funded, you know, for presale. Kickstarter at the time decided to kick off anyone that was a hardware product. So we launched a new Kickstarter called Christie Street, and which is the street that Edison's lab was on. And, um, I was going to a conference. This guy Loïc Lemur, who had this conference in Paris called LeWeb, was a kind of a friend. And I said, Loïc, you gotta let me launch this at your conference. And he's like, oh, Jamie, you know, this is not very, you know, he's like, it's like literally like Sergey Brin was speaking at his conference. And I'm like, he's like, you know, Jamie, uh, it was like the biggest conference, biggest tech conference in Europe. I'm like, you gotta do it, Loïc.

He's like, okay. So we get on the phone and we're like going through it and his like his team and like what it's gonna look like, the presentation. and I'm like, we have to, we're going to put a product up, but here's a bunch of ideas we have. The last one was the doorbell and we get through them all. And I'm like, do you have like, what do you think will resonate with like the audience there? And he's like, the doorbell. And I'm like, really? You think so? And he's like, it has to be the doorbell. I'm like, okay. And so it wasn't even, it was like kind of like a last minute almost ad. I just put it on there. And the idea was to launch this site that people would sell hardware on and presale and like a Kickstarter. And we'd kind of in essence sell off this doorbell thing and get out of it quickly. And all people talked about when we launched was the doorbell. It became the thing. We ended up killing the site, started selling the doorbell, then realized we had to build the doorbell, which was a disaster in itself.

And, and then through that I got on Shark Tank.

Well, how could— so there's—

yeah.

So how did you go from that to Shark Tank?

Well, so I was—

they approached you because I know that's what happened.

So they did a little bit. So I went to lunch with another friend in L.A., like a guy who was building a little business here and like a friend of a friend's, like, you guys should get together. And so I go to, go to lunch with him and he's talking about his business and all this stuff. And meanwhile, I'm kind of thinking in my head and I'm really thinking this. I'm like, this is why, like, basically you're not making it, Jamie, is like, you're out to lunch, like with some entrepreneur, like talking about like advice. And meanwhile, you're like, you're like, you're literally failing in your garage. Like you're like, you basically like tanking your entire family and you're at lunch with this guy in Santa Monica, like talking about some whatever business. And at the end of it, he's like, what are you working on? I'm like, oh, this doorbell. And it was actually, again, kind of funny because put yourself back into that moment when someone said they're working on a doorbell that'll go to your phone. You actually laughed. Like, people would literally, like, viscerally laugh and be like, no, seriously, what are you working on?

Like, everyone's working on cool stuff. Like, oh, I'm doing this, I'm reinventing this, like, I'm doing whatever. And I'm like, uh, a doorbell that goes to your phone. They're like, haha, no, seriously, what are you doing? And I'm like, no, that's seriously what I'm doing. Like, sorry, like, you know, I'm an idiot. And so they, uh, the guy's like, oh, that's really cool. The Shark Tank's looking for better products. Do you want me to introduce you to the— or here's the email of the producer. Is that like Clay Newbill? It's one of the guys who worked for Clay.

Okay.

And he's like, you know, because they reached out like through like his connections or whatever. And they just said like, if you know of anything good, send it over. So I literally send an email like, hey, I'm Jamie Siminoff, you know, dorbach@dorbach.com. I start driving home from the lunch and they call and they're like, you need to be on Shark Tank. And I'm like, holy shit. There was 30,000 people plus applied the year that I got on. So it was like crazy.

That many?

Yeah. I mean, Shark Tank was like at the time, like 2012, '13, '14, Shark Tank was like the number one show on TV.

Were they still taking that 1% in perpetuity?

So they— when I— when that guy called me, they were.

Okay.

But they were just in the transition period of stopping that.

Okay.

Which turned out to be Mark Cuban was the one who basically said like, we're not going to do that anymore. They actually retroactively went and stopped. They gave it all back. So they ended up never taking a percentage of anyone's company.

I didn't know that, really.

Yeah, they went back and retroactively just nuked it all.

Many, many years ago, when it was, I think, the first or second— it was the second season of the show— they reached out to me. I had a shoe, like a weighted shoe called No Gym Required Shoe. Anyway, Clay reached out to me to be on the show, and, eh, well, I'm Canadian, so it became an issue with the visas. But then it was this 1% in perpetuity, and my partner was like, there's no way that we're gonna go on some show Because they were— the idea was they were going to take that 1% regardless if you even like got on the show or not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was just basically for the ad basically.

Exactly. Like even if you make a deal, not make a deal, whatever, you have to give up. Like, like they must have lost out on a lot of amazing smart entrepreneurs because no, not— people don't want to be doing that.

It was an expensive ad at that point. Like, I mean, if you did that and it was like, yeah, people didn't want to do it.

Like for you, if you had— if that— if they took a 1% from your company.

I was so desperate, I probably would have done it. Like I would have taken money from Satan at the time. I mean, I was like like, you know, I was desperate.

Well, wait, so then at that time when you went on, did you have— you sold any?

So yeah, we had— so we— the presale started in 2012. So December 2012, we announced it.

Okay.

And then I went on Shark Tank. We filmed September of 2013. It went on November of 2013.

Okay.

And we started shipping DoorBots. It was called DoorBot at the time, still, like the actual product. We started shipping them basically 2 weeks after we were on Shark Tank is when we had them come in from Asia and we started shipping them out.

So, but before you got on that show, did you actually presell any of them?

Well, yeah, we had presold like, like a couple million dollars worth.

Okay.

So then, oh no, it was like, it was like legit.

Okay. So you already had that. Okay.

So then you go, but it's so funny. Cause it was like, we, if you had told me like when we launched it, you're going to presell a couple million dollars, like, oh my God, this is awesome. The problem was like blowing through millions of dollars in hardware is like the easy, like, it's like, Yeah, you're done. I mean, like, we were spending them, like, the money engineering this. Like, I mean, we were so negative on that product. It was crazy.

Really? How much were you negative at this point?

I mean, we were— had to be at least— if we had shut it down, we'd have at least owed $1 million or $2 million because we were ordering, like, supply, like, right, ordering parts and ordering all this stuff. And, like, I mean, it's just like, you're just dead.

You're just— yeah, you're just, like, just spending money.

And I did. I used the money, like, the presale money I used to design the product.

Right.

But then I didn't have money to buy the product. So like, like part of why we like, like shipped right after Shark Tank is like we got all this money. The sales went up after Shark Tank, which then I could turn that, you know, 3 days is how long it takes for a credit card to settle. So I'm sending that money to the manufacturers. Wow. To clear out inventory.

That's incredible. Okay, so wait, so you, 'cause when you went on there, okay, you had about $2 million in sales, blah, blah, blah. They all turned you down because of 2 reasons I saw or heard was first was the fact that the hardware was expensive.

Yep.

Right. And then what was the—

it is expensive compared to a doorbell.

Compared to a doorbell.

Which is funny. Remember, put yourself back in that time. Like, no one thinks about it like that now. Like, everyone's like, oh, it's a doorbell, like a video doorbell camera, like a doorbell camera. Like, like there's a whole category.

Yeah, you created the category.

And I still very much like have a good share in it. But, but the— back then it was like a doorbell is like $20, $15. Yeah, like whatever. And it's like, yours is $200. Like, there's no way someone's gonna spend $200 on a doorbell. And I'm like, well, it's not a doorbell. It doesn't— it's a doorbell. And so they— that was a big part of the mess. Uh, and then it was also, again, market size, like how many doorbells sell a year. Now at that time, and this is where data can be so wrong for people. Like when you follow data, it can be so wrong. And this is where opportunities are going to exist for entrepreneurs. As we get more lazy with AI, AI can only see the future based on the past. Like, it's literally how it works. And real entrepreneurs are able to see the future completely in an orthogonal, different way. So you look at the data on doorbells and you're like, yeah, there's like $100 million a year of doorbells, whatever it is. But when did someone buy a doorbell? When it broke. The only time someone bought— or when they built a new house.

So built a new house or when it, when it literally broke. And a doorbell lasts for 30, 40 years, whatever it lasts on a house. And so of course there was no market for doorbell. But if— what happens if you came out with something that people wanted on their front door? Now what's the market size? It turns out the market size was multiple billions of dollars.

Wow.

And so people just didn't see the market. Uber was another great example of where no one could see— everyone said like, well, taxi business is only this big. Uber can only be this percentage of it. It's like, what happens if you change how people travel? Like, what is that market size?

And I think—

and I think that is like, again, I think especially with AI, we're going to look over a lot of businesses because you're going to type into AI like, I'm thinking about doing a dorm, but it's going to be like, the maximum size of this business could be this. And you're like, oh no, I'm not going to do it.

That is so true. But isn't that also not— I'll take a little small tangent about prompting, being really, really savvy and knowing how to prompt these things or which one to use. And it keeps on being like, AI, what I have, what I'm doing on it now is very different than what was happening even 2 weeks ago. It iterates every minute of the day.

It is definitely getting better and smarter. I think it's going to be very hard though, to prompt it to make that big of a leap. Yeah, like I think it's going to be very hard to like, and I think that's where like an entrepreneur, an inventor having like, you know, having true passion about something, mission, purpose is like, I do think that's still going to exist in the future as a differentiator between success and failure.

And also in it. AI does not have grit or perseverance and all those other work ethic things that I believe you need with luck.

Yeah.

Right. The combination. Okay, so let's get back to the Shark thing. I find it so interesting. Okay. So then what was the other reason they gave you besides the hardware?

So it was, yeah, so it was basically like, you know, it's too expensive. How big is the market?

Yeah.

I mean, those are, I guess, the two big, I think that was the two biggest ones. They just couldn't see, like, they couldn't see this product being big enough. You know? So, so like, they're like, you know, they're like, of course someone will buy it, but it's not gonna be big enough.

Is— how about Nest? Is Nest considered to be your big competition?

I would say at this point, no. I mean, like, I think— I mean, they're, they're out there and they, they, you know, they do the good job in their place. But no, they're not like—

they're not doing—

not that big.

They're not that big.

Okay.

So then when the show actually aired, how much did your sales go up? Like 1,000%? 5,000%? Yeah.

So we were selling— we were like doing like a couple hundred grand a month. And we— so— and that was actually the scariest thing of going Shark Tank is So you go on and they're like, you have this bump and like no one knows exactly, like each product sells differently. And so we're like, okay, so I'm figuring the bump is going to be like within the first few hours of the show and that's it. Like that's all we're going to get. Funny side note, we were on Shopify. Our site was on Shopify. I call up Tobi, who's the CEO of Shopify. Now remember, you got to go back that he was the CEO of Shopify. Shopify was not that big of a company. Like Shopify today is like a $100+ billion company. So like calling up the CEO of Shopify today would be insane, right? Back then it's like calling like the local person that they don't like, the local person who runs the restaurant down the street. You know, I'm like calling Toby, I'm like, hey, we're going to be on Shark Tank, whatever, 2 weeks from now. He's like, okay, you're fine. And I'm like, no, you don't understand.

If you go down, like, I'm going to drive to Canada and kill you.

Right.

You know, basically. And we have this email exchange, which is very funny, which we still saved of him and I going back and forth. And he's like, we've spent over $1 million on servers now. But like Shopify now, I mean, it's I know, hundreds of billions. And I'm like, no, you don't understand, the traffic's so big. So it's like just very funny, these like two entrepreneurs that are like going back and forth. So I was really worried it was going to go down because I felt like it was going to be such a bump. So we, you know, we go on Shark Tank, kind of wake up the next morning, basically hungover, as you know, when the show actually aired. And it was like $100,000-something in sales. So I was excited to have $100,000 in sales, but I'm like, that's it? Like, oh my God, I did all this work for $100,000? Whatever, $150,000 in sales, whatever it was. Then the next day, $150,000 in sales. Next day, $100,000. Like, it was like literally, it just, and it then started going down slowly. It never went back to like, we were like maybe $4,000 or $5,000 a day or something, you know, going into Shark Tank.

Yeah.

It never went below, like, it was like, stayed at like $30,000 or something. Like, it was crazy. It just like stayed up.

So would you say that it was because of the Shark Tank, the exposure of Shark Tank that kind of catapulted the business then?

I would say I think there's with any business there's like a million, like literally a million things that make it successful, which is why it's hard to build a successful company because it's never one thing.

Right.

I would— Shark Tank, of the one things, I think it was one of the most impactful. I mean, it was like being on— it's like people being in a garage going on a Super Bowl ad.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it was that kind of level. And Shark Tank at the time was— it was like the number one show on TV. So it was not only were you on Shark Tank, you were on like the number one show on TV.

Right.

For 12 minutes. It was basically an ad on the whole business.

100%. And it wasn't like you were— like, now you have social media to compete with, right?

Yeah.

People— no one's even watching TV.

Yeah, this was when, like, TV was TV. This was right at the end of that, actually. It was, like, right there.

I still like the show, though, by the way. I think it's a great show. I love that show.

It's a great show. It's great for kids to watch. It, like, inspires people. It's inspired a whole generation. Like, I love Shark Tank.

Me too. Who were the judges when you were on?

It was, uh, so it was Robert.

Yeah.

Kevin, uh, Lori, Damon, and Mark.

So did any— when she like walked out of the tank or whatever, yeah, what happened with it? Did you make a friend? Like, did you become really good friends with any of them? Did they— any of them reach out to you? None of that point.

So at that point, like, I mean, I walked out and like, you know, kind of nothing happened. We aired, they saw immediately that like from our airing and the response that they got that like this was something unique.

Was it one of the highest rate, like in terms of products that like kind of didn't hate it?

I'd say pretty quickly. Yeah. It was like one of the—

Yeah, obvious.

And then they like our sales, like they ask you pretty, you know, they're like Clay and the team that run it are pretty sharp. So they were like, how are your sales? Whatever. And I'm like, oh, we've done, you know, we'd done like a million dollars in the first whatever. Like, so we were blowing out every number they had pretty quickly. So I think it was like, it was early that they realized they should stay in touch. I don't think they understood how big it would be. I didn't myself either.

Right.

But it was like starting to already like, you know, become something. We did like an update episode, I think a year later in the next season. And then it just kept going, kind of rolling from there.

So wait, so when did you raise money? Like the next round? So you did $500,000.

I mean, I was raising— I mean, during Shark Tank, I was, I was raising— I was trying to raise $1 million when we went on Shark Tank. I had $300,000 circled. I went for $700,000 on Shark Tank. I actually needed that money and I didn't get it. So I just kept like, I mean, I was, I was fricking by hook and crook and whatever. I was trying to get every dollar in. I mean, I was like literally just, just scraping at the barrel constantly to get money. Like, I mean, that was the entire, until we sold basically.

Okay. So how much in, in all the money you raised, how much did you raise all altogether?

It's like $220 million or something.

That's a lot.

It was not a little. Yeah.

Wow. So how much did you get diluted with all that?

A lot.

Like 80%, 40%, 60%?

Yeah. Like the high, high, like 80s. 80%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow. So like, even though you sold it for $1.15 billion.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was just an insane amount of money. You like walked away with how much? Like $100 million, $200 million?

Yeah. Like, I mean, that range.

Like you're not poor.

It's like, it's like I, I like, I made, more money than I ever thought I'd ever have ever. And like, so I look like 18-year-old Jamie is very proud of 49-year-old Jamie, like super proud. But people on the outside certainly have this, like, they think I made like $100 billion somehow. Like, not even like a bit, like, it's like they like, like hundreds of billions.

And so like, it's so funny how that happens.

It is funny. And I see it like a lot is like that. Like, that's just, yeah. Cause you get diluted, you're like investor.

I mean, it's, it's, it's, um, We'll talk about that because I think people don't know that. I mean, you know, I've had a few people on the show who talked about how, or in general, people I know, let's say they sell their company for $1 billion or $2 billion, but they still— and that's for like the majority share. So they get to keep still like 20% of the company.

A lot of private equity stuff.

Yeah, a lot of private equity. But that wasn't your situation at all. You sold the whole thing.

Yeah, because for me it was more of like, I mean, and this is where there's like, there's so many different ways to like skin the cat, kind of like to build a business. And there's people that are like, that build it profitably day one and they just keep rolling and they own 100%. Like, I have friends that own 100% of some of these big businesses and they'll sell for $300 million. No one even knows they sold. And yet they made way more money than a lot of entrepreneurs that, you know. And so, yeah, I think like the, the outcome size is different than like what people sort of take and how that is.

Right.

You know, for me, it's like my personality was to go big quickly and want to build something. I wanted to like hit the COVID off the ball.

Yeah.

And to do that, you gotta take a lot of money, go fast. Like, you know, we spent it marketing, like we built the brand. Now it worked. I mean, it's like, like, yeah, Ring is, I mean, over 100 million devices out in the world today. Super profitable. Amazon.

100 million people use Ring.

100 million devices in the market. Yeah. Yeah. Over.

And is it still growing exponentially? Oh yeah.

Very, very fast still.

Because also you have a subscription model, so you're just, you're just selling it and you're making money every month.

So it was a really, the, like, we went from $3 million, the, like, so the year I was on Shark Tank, it was like, you know, so like $3 million. So we kind of hit that, then $30 million, $170, $480, and then we sold to Amazon and sort of hit billions after that. People look at those numbers and they're like, that's amazing. It's like, actually, no, it's terrible because the amount of cash you need to grow a business that has a physical product. So the business itself was just incinerating cash as a, because of the growth, the actual like economics on a per-customer basis were phenomenal. So the fundamentals of the business were actually very strong. The entire company collectively, because we're trying to build this stuff, it's very complex. Like we're trying to like the scale you needed was burning money hand over fist. So the problem was it was a really scary business to build because it was like it was incinerating cash. The good thing was the on a per-customer basis because of subscription, because of how we built it, like actually was a very healthy, like the economics were healthy as long as we got to scale.

So we knew if we got to, and we always said like it was probably $2, $2.5 billion in sales is when we'll get profitable. And that was almost right on the numbers. Like that was kind of right where we had to be.

So how much was your customer acquisition per, or how much is it per person?

It's, you know, it's hard because when you're building a brand, this is always because people would ask you like, what's your customer acquisition cost? Like, well, what do you use to calculate that? We're built, you know, if I stop all my advertising today, Is our ring sales still going to happen for the next 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years? Yes. So then we'd have zero acquisition costs. So it's like, it's when you're starting to do like top of the funnel, like, you know, you start to do TV and things like that. That's the problem is people attribute, they'll be like, well, you spent this month a million on TV. What, you know, and you sold whatever, you know, you sold 10,000 units. So that means that, you know, you're like $1,000, whatever, you know, per person. You're like, no, that's not like, If we stop marketing, we're still going to sell. So it is very, very hard to get these— these customer acquisition costs really only work in this like very clean direct-to-consumer programmatic. You know, you have an ad on Meta, on Instagram, on Facebook, it converts or it doesn't convert. Like that's kind of it, right?

Performance marketing, like super performance marketing.

But when you're trying to build a brand, it's different. It's different. And it's like, when do you— this is— but this is the problem is like, when do you stop? How much, you know? And then you have competition coming in and do you like you know, it's, it's cheaper to build the brand when it's, when things are more infantile, when it's early.

But was it subscription right off the bat?

It was subscription. So, uh, DoorBot wasn't when we launched that. We knew, we, we actually, we knew we wanted to build the subscription. We just like, we just didn't even have it.

Right.

And then Ring, when we launched Ring, which was 2014, October of 2014, we announced that like, it's going to be the subscription. And so like, that was like when we announced like the real, like, that's when we like showed what the thing could really do.

So then when did— like, so give me the story with Amazon. Like, who came to you? How did the whole Amazon acquisition happen?

This is the problem with being an entrepreneur and doing stuff is it's just like, it's such a long game. So we started talking to Amazon when I was DoorBot and just, I mean, just talking to them like they had Alexa. Like we were just like, I mean, just like started like, you know, like having conversations with their device team and they had a little venture capital arm off of Alexa. So we started, and then I literally flew up because it was Amazon, uh, when we were launching Ring and a month before we, we put Ring out in the market, I wanted to preview that with Amazon. So I sat with Nick Comoros, who's now like one of the heads of corp dev, but it was like more junior at that time. And again, this is a good lesson. He was way more junior then. Like everyone always thinks you have to meet with like Jeff Bezos or whatever. And here's like me and this guy who was kind of similar peer group in terms of like he was early in his career too, but he needed to make it and he has. And I sat with him and showed him Ring and we did the things like, this is so cool.

I'm going to break to this person or this person because again, Nick wanted to also like get shit out there, make it. That's 2014. And 3 years later is when Nick and I sat down basically and he said, okay, like we want to— I love this.

I love that you said that. That is such an important point, right? Because people are very myopic. They think either you're meeting with the top person or it's like you're out.

Exactly.

And every, you have to be so much more strategic, right? 'Cause everybody will, that person that you met with or in any business or company, like their trajectory is they can be the, they can be running the whole thing. This happened to me many times with people I worked with, right? Which means you should be nice to everyone. You should be, you should connect with everyone. No one's too small to, yeah. To, you know, connect with because look what happened to you. Like, and this is, by the way, this is happens, this is what usually happens in my experience. Whenever I thought the other way and I thought, oh, I'm having with the head person, nothing ever happens. Well, that's nothing ever happens.

That's always— I mean, like, even now, like, I run Ring and someone wants to do something with Ring and they like, I want to meet with you. And I'm like, it's like I'm the last person that's going to actually work on that. Like, find— it is find—

it's so true.

Whatever. It's like, find the person who needs to make it. Like, I don't now need to make it work. Like, your product, like, I don't need to make it work with Ring.

100%.

But like, there's a person at Ring who's newer in their career who, if they could figure out how to make something really work, will make their career. And find like that person in any place.

Yeah.

And, and but it's also like just play the long game. Like, first of all, be nice to people because it's just better than being a jerk. Like, that's like, that's just simple.

Yeah.

But it is like find those people and then like grow with them and take a long approach at this. And I, and I do think with TikTok and our 15-second videos, like we just keep looking at shorter and shorter term thinking?

I think because we have zero attention span.

Yeah.

And then we are like, we, we are also completely— we, we're not, we're not realistic in how things actually work in the real life. Like a lot of the people I deal with back— I was nice to the interns and the coordinators. Those are the people who are running the companies now. Yeah. And the people that, you know, what you thought that were like such whatever, they retired, they left, they're not even there anymore. They could— and they could care less, to your point.

And it is just—

they could care less. Take the long game.

Like it's a, it's a, it's a lot, it's a, it's It's a marathon for most. And I think the problem is, of course, there's gonna be some, you know, 20-year-old that launches something and in 2 weeks sells it for a billion dollars. Like, it's lottery tickets. So someone's gonna scratch off, they're gonna buy one lottery ticket in their whole life. They're gonna scratch it off and win the big pot, whatever. Yes. That happens, but it's not likely to happen to you.

It's not likely to happen to you. And a lot of people I know, unless it's nepotism, right? Where the dad or the family has friends with the, the CEO and they acquire your business or whatever, the, then they, then they get lucky. Yeah. But for the average person who's going on grit and hard work and like all the persistence, you gotta like play the long game. Yeah. And you gotta be super, super strategic and be like, be nice to everyone, meet with everyone.

Yeah.

Like make everyone your friend.

I know a lot of the probably top VCs in the country now.

Yep.

A lot of them I know because I knew them when they were like, they were assistants or whatever at VC firms and they grew like, totally. It's incredible the people that I know that like, we're just so early in these things. And again, it's like, it also is like, but also it's like, it's just such a better world to be like, just nice to people and talk to people. Totally. Like, who gives a shit who someone is?

Like, but that's, I listen, I totally agree with you, but when you're in, when you are struggling and when you're an entrepreneur and you feel like you have like mouths to feed, you can think very, very, you can be very focused on, I need that person. I need that person. Only that person.

Yep.

And that's typically— that person is not the one that actually is going to, you know, make your, make your dreams come true.

Typically not. I mean, there's always like some weird cases again where someone heard something, but like, yeah, I mean, most of the time— and again, most of the time it's going to take longer. Like, it's not like someone's going to meet you and just like hand over a check for $100 million and you're going to, you know, make it.

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I mean, Nick was in corp dev, but he certainly wasn't like— he wasn't buying a billion-dollar company, right?

He was like a middle management person.

It was like middle, earlier career. Yeah, I mean, he wasn't like nobody. I mean, but like, he was like— not— but he certainly wasn't like Jeff Bezos. Yeah, it wasn't Jeff Bezos or like the heads.

And so he liked your company. Like, what, how did it, like, how did it go from day 1 to year 3 when they bought your company?

Yeah. So Nick was like, this is super cool. Like, you know, like, let's do this. We can try to get like, you know, help you here. Like, 'cause Nick, again, the funny thing is the higher you get, the less actual work you do. And so Nick was at that level where the people he knew, his peers, like the person over at e-commerce in Amazon was someone who was actually doing stuff.

Yeah.

The person in the device group was doing stuff. So like, it was like the people that were actually at that level, that layer that were— so we got into like, oh, you know, we then quickly found out that Amazon was going to launch— they hadn't at the time— a screen device. Well, guess what you want to put on a screen? Camera. So now it's like, hey, we want to sign this big NDA with you because we want to have you as an early partner on this and we want you to work on it with us. And so we helped like kind of build the whole video thing with them of how it would work on a screen.

Before they bought you?

Before. Oh yeah, yeah. Way before. Yeah.

So did they just pay you like a consulting fee?

We just worked with them as like a— like they were more just— it was a channel that we would, you know, kind of use. Okay. Use.

Like a partnership. Yeah, partnership.

And so, but that's how we started to meet them and like, and so just, you know, but it took, it was like 3 years of courting. And I'd say not even with like, it wasn't like we're like, I think you're always, when you're small like that, you're like, oh, it'd be great if Amazon bought us. I mean, it's like, sure, you know, it's like, sure. But it was really just like, let's just keep kind of just doing what's right. And we just kept working on stuff. And then all of a sudden it came to this point where they're like, we should, you know.

Did you have anybody else who wanted to buy you guys?

No, which is kind of interesting. You know, I didn't want to sell the company, so I was not— I do think a lot of times the reason companies have a lot of interest is because they're putting out sort of the scent, you know, they're putting like the pheromones of sale out there and they're trying to sort of bait people. Like, I really didn't want to sell the company. And I told Amazon many times that from working with them, and it was true, that it was the only company I would sell to because I like You know, Jeff was still leading it as the founder, and you could feel that like founder energy there.

Yeah.

And that they really backed the companies they bought. And I just was not done with Ring. I mean, as you can see, I'm still there 8 years later. So like, I certainly wasn't done with Ring, but I really wasn't like done with it. Like, I really wanted to keep building it. And so I didn't want to sell it. And so I think we didn't get other offers because when we sold, a bunch of people came out of the woodwork and said, I wish we had known you were for sale.

Like who?

I mean, like just a bunch, you know, like big companies. Like big companies.

Yeah, I know, I know.

Yeah, like large ones. So, but like, you know, but so—

Is this what you told me before? You're like, don't worry, I know how to like skirt the line.

I know how to like not get myself in too much trouble. I get in like a, I get in just enough trouble to like go through life with like—

What does the name of the company start with?

Like, you know, like the ones that are big. And so, but like, you know, they called you, they're like, we didn't know you were for sale. And it was like, partly we, we weren't. The other part is like, I wouldn't have sold to them. Because I, I know how they are with companies and I wasn't trying to sell—

like AT&T or Samsung.

I wasn't trying to sell the company. I was trying to build still this mission and making neighborhoods safer. And I was like very missionary with it. And I also felt to the team that I owed them because I said to the team, the most important thing we're doing is making neighborhoods safer. That's what we're focused on. And when we sold to Amazon, like the thing that Jeff said is like, you just keep doing this. And like, this is what we're buying. Like we're buying a company that like Have you met with him since? Since we sold?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Like, do you see him all the time? Are you guys like golfing buddies?

Jeff doesn't golf, but I mean, we're—

Do you work out with him?

I would say we're definitely like, I would consider him a friend. I mean, yeah, I think, I think, I hope he considers— I think he considers me a friend. I mean, he's, you know, you never want to say the richest person in the world. You want to like say like—

No, no, no. But like, when did he, when did he kind of enter the picture?

So there they, at that point they had realized that Jeff loves entrepreneurs so much that if they got Jeff in too early that he would like, it was like hard to negotiate. Like he'd basically just give you sort of a little bit and then they'd, and then the problem was then they'd have to be like, well, that's not a price we can do. Like, you know, like, like it sort of would become like crazy because Jeff just loves entrepreneurs. Jeff loves inventors and entrepreneurs.

Really?

He loves people that build stuff. Like Jeff truly is like, just like loves to be around.

Everyone's going to now contact Jeff right now with their idea.

I mean, if you can get to him, he loves to, he would talk to anyone forever about interesting things.

I love that.

He loves— he's like a sponge of just wanting to understand. He's curious. He's like a very curious person.

Really?

Yeah.

So then when— so at what point did they— did they get you to meet him?

So it was basically right after we signed the deal that I finally kind of like— I, I met him, but not like, you know, like met him like, oh, like this is, you know, like very like—

right, right.

Not like met met. And then it was after that that we started to kind of like actually spend some time together and got to know each other.

So, so then when before you got $1.15, what was the initial amount that they offered you?

Less.

Yes.

So, but it was just funny because they offered me, but not that much less.

Like more than $700 million?

Yeah, more than that. But, but so then we had to get, the problem was, and this is like my, put my board in a terrible position, which is my board is like, we, you know, as a fiduciary, because we had so many investors and there's like, people are litigious. And so like, I don't care if someone put a dollar in, like, if you sell, it's like, okay, well, why did you sell for that price? Like, you have this company that some people could— people could have said the company was worth $100 billion. People say it's worth $500 million, whatever.

It's like, no, you're right. Like, I agree.

The company on one hand is losing money. It could have been worth $0. The other side is it could be worth— look at the growth rate. It could be worth $10 billion. And so as a board, you can— so you had— so we brought in JPMorgan.

Okay.

Noah Weintraub and JPMorgan as an investment bank. And it was hard because it was like, Noah's like, well, basically we'll go out and we'll get other offers. Like, that's how you do it. And I'm like, well, I'm not selling to anyone else. And it's like, Noah's like, oh, you know, it's like—

that's why I asked you. Was there was not even like you didn't even go out with a big—

because I said this is like, again, I am probably like I was probably too crazy about this mission and like I looking back like it probably hurt us. I was like so mission-focused and driven that it certainly made us— we made mistakes. I probably would have been better, but I'm also not— I'm not a business person. So like, it's like, I think that's just is who I am. Like, I'm just like a, like, um, so I said to Noah, like, we're not selling anyone else. Get the most you can and then we'll sell to Amazon.

Are you serious?

Yeah.

So wait, you're not a business person, but you are an inventor, a founder. So who was the day-to-day? Every, like, were you the founder? Did you— were you the CEO of the company?

So I think anyone can run a business if they recognize what they're good at. So like, I don't think running a business takes a specific trait other than knowing the things that you don't do.

Yeah.

And so for me, like, super missionary, like, by the way, like what a— like leadership. Everyone at the company knew what they were working on, like why to work there, why to be there. Like, that's a pretty big one. Like, that's— you attract people. That's pretty huge. But like day-to-day stuff, like I didn't do anything. I never— I've never had in the history of the company, I've never had a set meeting with my, my like direct team, right? Ever.

So who does that for you?

So it's autonomous. So like we have people that run their areas. They're all like CEOs. I look at like everyone is like a CEO of their area and you just kind of like run your own area. So like marketing is run by marketing and they like kind of are CEOs of that. Now you have to make sure they work together. And so in my job, I kind of like come in and go out to fight fires, fix things. I drive a lot of the product and invention side of things, but like day to day I've never been like the day-to-day trying to run the company. I think that's the problem is a lot of people who start things feel like they have to by the book be like a CEO, right? They have to have like their weekly meeting and they have to do this and all this stuff. And it's like, it's just not who they are.

Yeah.

And because of that, it like stops them from scaling and getting big because they're trying to fight to like be this CEO. Like, I, in fact, I call myself the chief inventor. We didn't have a CEO.

Yeah, that's great. 'Cause I know that a lot of times what companies do, right? Like they have the person who's the founder in until they get to a certain place, like $50 million, $20, whatever. And then like the real CEO comes in to scale the business. Right.

And you know, that like anything, it can work. I mean, you saw it with Eric Schmidt with Google. Like you had these like, you know, the Google guys, the founders were like young and whatever. And Eric Schmidt comes in who's like more of like a seasoned, you know, person. I think that was actually more luck than anything else because if you like, if you look at 100 of those examples, they're probably like one of the few that actually work, right? Because usually when you bring in that CEO, they destroy the whole company. The whole company.

Exactly.

And so I think—

because what you said, like, first of all, what you just said was so smart, was so, so true. And I've seen this a million times because you as a CEO, you're bringing the vision, you're bringing the, the passion. Yes. And you're leading the ship, right? So if people to, to build a really great team of people, they have to really look up to the person with the— have like a mission-driven reason why they're working so hard and have a corporate culture. Like, you're setting the corporate culture, right?

I said, I said the culture. I said that. And also I'm super driven. I wanted to win.

Yes.

So you're setting all these macro big things, but I wasn't doing like a weekly team meeting to go over whatever. I don't even know what— I don't even know how people run a business. Like I couldn't even tell you, like, I don't, I just don't know how it works, but I know how to build a business. I know how to like win a business. I know how to win. And like, and again, I always look at the inputs. Like, to me, the business is like the output side, right? The inputs are like, do we have the right product? Are we fixing customers' needs? Like, like if you fix, if you, I always said if we make neighborhoods safer, if someone believes that Ring, when they walk into Best Buy or Home Depot or whatever, if you see Ring on a package, like just that name, and you're like, I know whatever's in there is going to make my neighborhood safer. And make my home safer, my family safer, you're going to buy it 100%. And you're going to reward me with that purchase. And so, like, all I have to focus on is making sure that you know that everything else will fix itself.

Like, how that box got there, like, someone can figure that out.

Like, that's so true. Then why did you come? Like, so you were there for all those years. So when they bought you, why did— like, why did you stay? Was that part of the deal? Like, okay, it's kind of—

it's funny. It's like people say like part of the deal, meaning like that they paid to keep, like that, like I was there because they were paying me. It's like the opposite. Like part of the deal was like, I get to stay and keep running this. Like I told them, like, I'm staying.

Right. Did you get a salary on top of them?

Yeah, but like, I mean, yeah, yeah, no, it's been good.

No, but what I'm saying, but then you left and then why did you come back?

So I stayed. So we sold in 2018. I stayed for 5 years and I took it from literally, like, The year before I sold, so 2017, we did $480 million. The year before that, $170 million. We go to Amazon and we grow like a frickin' weed. I mean, we just— I crushed it and I was like, how much did you sell? It was crazy. Like, it just grew.

You want to tell me that?

It grew and grew and grew. I mean, billions. And so— and we— and I got it profitable. So into '23, profitability, crazy growth, incredible invention, you know, every, every like whatever you want to look at, like whether it's reviews, CSAT scores, whatever the things like everything was like like kind of 10 out of 10. And I was just toast. Like, my brain was mush. Like, I had just not— like, it's funny because people say, like, when you sold, like, where'd you go? What'd you do? And I'm like, I went to work. Like, I was like, this is great because now I have a big balance sheet to work off of. Like, we're gonna go faster and harder. So for 5 years, I was like— I went to, like, full grit grind mode.

Like, what was your schedule like? Give me an example.

I mean, it was— I never stopped.

Just like, what time did you start work in the morning?

I'm not like a Like, I'm not like a— like, I just kind of start. I just kind of go all— I'm like, never stop. It's more like it's like a constant than it is like an actual—

like, did you go to the office or do you do it from home?

Office, traveling. I mean, a lot of travel, a lot of like— in-person is big for me, really.

Like, I think in-person meetings, you mean in-person meetings?

Obviously COVID was a weird one, but, but, but besides that, it's like, you know, retailers and like, I think, you know, you got to just be out there. And, you know, I'm like the ShamWow guy, you know, I'm like Billy Mays, you know, like I'm like an infomercial. So you are.

Look at your shirt. Yeah, I know. I mean, like, literally I wear bring stuff.

I mean, I like, it's like, but that's who I am. Like, I'm a, I'm, so I go there.

It's amazing.

And that energy, and that's, that's what we, you know, that's how we get, you know, go to a retailer and say like, this is what we're launching and this is why we're excited about it. And this is how it's going to make neighbors safer and people safer. And, you know, and you're like the promotion guy.

I'm a promoter, the enthusiast for sure. You bring the enthusiasm, which is also so important.

But that also, it also like sucks your energy. Like, that's, it kills you. Like, I mean, like, you know, I don't care how you're flying, I don't care what you're doing. Like, it is like you're grinding. And so I just got to this point where I like felt like I delivered to Amazon way more than they had expected. It's— I think it's probably the best purchase they've ever done from a company side.

Totally.

And so I just was burnt out. I'm like, I need to just do something else. Like, I need to read. Like, I just— my brain needs to reset. And so I worked with them and we transitioned out. And so I left at the end or like middle of '23, and then I was pretty quickly miserable.

So you went— I was going to say, because it's not that late, like you went back—

I left for like a year and a half. Yeah.

So what made you go back so quick?

Couple of things. One is, I mean, I was— it is like my baby. Like, I mean, I wear the Ring shirt because it's like, it's like my baby. It's like my baby. It's like my— it's like I have one son and I have like this one. So I have like two kids.

Wow.

So I do love it. I love what it does. I love the stories of it. I'm super attached to it. Like, people know my face. They come up to me. They're like, Ring did this for my family. Ring did this for me. Ring stopped this thing. Like, I— so I love all of that. And feed on that. And then with AI, I could see really what Ring could do. And it was the, the fires in the Palisades that was like the breaking point for me of, of we like, there's so much more we can do.

Like what? Tell me.

So I was, I mean, like my house is in the Palisades, so it was like, you know, like it was on fire. And so we put it out and, um, I'm sorry.

Yeah.

And it was just, I mean, it was like, you know, if you've been up there, it's like, it's just such a terrible thing. And so we had over 10,000 cameras in that area. And I was just thinking like, this thing's jumping and whatever, and no one knows where it is. And like, that's part of the problem. And like, firemen are like being dispatched to the wrong places. And I'm like, shit, like we could, like, we know where the fire is to the cameras. Like, we could build something to do this. And so that was like one of the things that I was like, and like, cause AI, like before AI, you could not have, it just wouldn't, like, you can't just dump 10,000 cameras into a, anything. It wouldn't have helped. It would have like, who cares? Like with AI, you can like look for smoke, fire, like whatever, and with people's permission, of course, like, you know, so now we have this thing called Firewatch, which we launched off of this. And so if, if a big fire event happens, when they do, we actually do it now all the time. We send out an alert to people in that area and we say, would you like to basically let your camera be used for the next 24 hours to help WatchDuty, which is the app that basically builds the fire map for all the command centers and the police and fire to help them.

And so we then look through AI when the fire's happening and we try to figure out where it's jumping to, to try to build a more real-time fire map to help the resources go and fight it faster.

Oh, wow.

And so that was like, that was, but that was like, that's the product and that's kind of the thing. But that was like the breaking point of like me going to Amazon and being like, I have to come back and do this. Like, this is just like, we need like this network of, of that we've built, this mission we've built, this base of neighbors, which is what we call our customers. Like we need, like with AI we can do so much more.

So you went back to them and said, I want to come back.

Yeah. And they were super cool. They were like, that's great. Like, okay, like, we'll have you back. I was like, sweet.

Well, did you— did anyone take over your job when you left?

Yeah, someone took over. Yeah.

So they kick him out, or what happened to that person?

They, they decided they wanted to go do something else. Yeah.

Oh, so it kind of was like— it was probably— it worked out just fine.

It seemed to work out.

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When— I mean, a couple of things. I think whenever you're doing something that matters.

Yeah.

And it's almost funny. I would say even whenever you do something that matters and that's good for people, you always get pushback. Like, there's, there's, there's just— it's just funny, but it's almost like like if you do something that's big and impactful and no one pushes back, you're probably not doing something big and impactful. Like, as crazy as that sounds, it like is like what I've learned.

Um, it's so true.

So we launched this thing, you know, we launched Dog Search Party.

Oh yeah.

So, so we launched Search Party for Dogs. It's got a similar idea where we have right now, we have in the Ring app, in Neighbors, our, our Ring app, we have people post, you know, almost a million lost dogs a year get posted in the app already, like from previous, like like, it's lost dogs are actually like a huge thing.

Yeah.

All the time. And so I'm like, wow, with AI we can like take that dog, that picture, and like look for that dog in the neighborhood. And when we find it, tell you. So, so we have now, like, we built the technology, we built it with privacy. So it is like, if a dog is lost in my neighborhood, it'll say, Jamie, like, this dog, like, this picture that was posted looks like this dog in front of your house. Do you want to contact your neighbor? If you don't contact your neighbor, I mean, you're not probably a good person, but no one knows that you didn't do it, right? It's like literally no different than like a dog now walking in your backyard. We like, oh, that's a weird thing. That's like a dog. And I look at the tag and I see the number on it and I'm like, no, I'm not gonna call it. And I throw the dog out of the yard. Like, that would be the same thing. Like, no one knows you did that, but like, WTF?

Yeah.

And so we, we launched this thing. We're literally every day we're reuniting over one family per day with their dog. Using it today already. Like, it's actually happening. We did a Super Bowl commercial on it, and the people went, you know, I mean, it was like a group of people went sort of like, I never understood this. Well, because it's like, this could be for surveillance, this could be to track this, this could be to track that. And it's like, I think people just, you know, and I get it, like, they just can't— they imagine this like utopian world and they get like, they just get freaked out too, like, super quickly versus being like, okay, how does this thing work? And when you look at how it works, you're like, oh, like, I— like, it doesn't take anyone's privacy. Like, it's, it's actually your clicking to say, I want to call my neighbor. Like, you're— with the fire thing, you're clicking to say, like, I want to help in the fire. So we've made everything like you— I think what it is that people have gotten so polarized. It's like you either have, like, you have no privacy and these things happen, or you have your privacy and nothing can happen.

There's like no, like, wait a second, we can have a middle ground that, like, I can help my neighborhood when I want to. And when I don't want to, like, I can sort of— I can control it. Like, no one can imagine that that world can exist. It's like sort of middle. World.

That's the world we're living in in general.

Everything's so polarized, like super one side or the other. Like, the reality is like the middle is where everything should be.

The middle is where everything should be. But that's, that's with everything in life. But then how about like the Savannah Gunthrie thing with her mother? Yeah, remember? Because you— well, how was that affecting Ring?

It affects a couple ways. I mean, one is, um, you know, first of all, it's like, it's probably the saddest thing I've ever seen.

I mean, there's still no re— there's this— it's still—

I mean, at this point, you— I, I hope I'm wrong, but it feels like there's just— I mean, I don't— it just doesn't feel there's enough evidence. Like, they just don't have—

but on the Ring, they saw the guy at the front, at the front of the door.

Yeah, so that was actually a Nest.

Oh, it was a Nest. Okay, there you go. See, but see, that's— no, I know everyone assumes it was Ring, right?

Yeah, the, the thing that was— but the thing that was really, you know, in most of these things like this, when they happen, like some, some big event in an area that happens like this, usually you have a lot of footage now. Like, you have a lot of cameras. In this particular area of Tucson, the homes are on bigger lots. There's a lot of, like, brush and stuff in front of them. And so it just turned out that, like, the streets there from the homes, like, are just not covered by cameras. And so whatever happened there just was not— like, just no one had you know, sort of no one caught it. Because in, in a neighborhood in Los Angeles, if something happened like that, you'd probably have 100 people submit videos of cars coming in, cars going out, things, whatever, you know.

But if it was— and I'm not to throw anyone under the bus, Nest or whoever— but if it was a Ring camera, would it have been the picture clearer? Would it have shown more angles? Could have done more stuff to kind of maybe catch the person?

I mean, that, you know, they were masked. I think, I think what you really needed on this one was not just that. You needed to have some idea of where they came from, where they going, like a little bit more of that sort of part, because they were somewhat professional, it seems, in what they were doing. But I think if you had video of like the car, where it went, then you could sort of like— then you can usually breadcrumb it, like try to go farther. Whereas like they don't even know what car they were in, or as far as I know, like I don't— you know, I'm just like from the public side.

Like, is what— and we don't even have to say them. Yeah, but like in general, like what is like, how is the Ring so far superior? What is some of the attributes that, or yeah, things that the Ring has that other competitive people don't?

You know, it's funny. I mean, listen, I think our cameras, to the price, every price point, I think we deliver the best camera quality.

So it's funny, I have one. I mean, not to say that means anything, but it's not like it's—

people say, do you have the best cameras? And like, the best camera is like a little bit, because like, if you spend $100,000 on a camera, yeah. Like there's, there, there are like super extreme cameras that are available, of course, but they're also at a price. And so I think what we've been able to do is democratize home security and bring it to a price point that's affordable and give you an incredible value for that. So I think like our cameras are, I do, I do think they're the best at every price point. And then we've created things like the neighbors and community requests and like all these like things around it that then make the experience so it has more impact. So, you know, like in the Brown shooting, for example, the police were able to send an alert to all the Ring customers asking for footage very quickly.

Yeah.

And then they were able to get that back and use that. And that's kind of, again, how they breadcrumbed their way into that was like, okay, this person talked to this person, I see it on video. Okay. Like, and again, all— but by the way, to the middle, submitted with people that all gave their permission at that time. So like, they got an alert, and if they said no, they were anonymous. If they said yes, then they were able to submit that.

Wow. Okay. In term— I didn't even ask you any of these questions yet, but In terms of like advice, right? Or mentor, do you have a mentor? Have you ever, do you have one that you speak to regularly?

I certainly have like, I'd say at different times I think it's different people because like you have different needs, but I certainly, there's lots of people that I talk to constantly about things and just like, you know, mentors and sort of just like people that you, it takes a village. I mean, for sure.

Is there, is there, is there like one piece of advice that you've gotten over these years that really kind of stick, sticks out?

I don't think there is like a single— and I think, I mean, I think that that's the biggest piece of advice I've ever gotten, I think, is actually that, that is like, don't give advice. Is that, you know, we're all unique. Like we're all a fingerprint. Our businesses are all unique. Like the time, like people will ask me like, oh, I'm building this, this product. Like, what should I do that Ring did that made it successful? And the reality is like the world shifted, you know, like, like to start a business, to start Ring today would be different than starting Ring Yes. 15 years ago. It's like, I mean, there wasn't TikTok when I started. There wasn't. So it's like, so I think it's, but, but history doesn't repeat itself. It does rhyme. And so I think like when you realize that it rhymes, then it's like, listen to people and try to like extract understanding of like the rhyming. And then how does that sort of relate to you? So to me, it's more about like listening and understanding how things relate to your situation, not taking advice, because when people want to give advice, It's again, it's also coming from— it's even coming from a different time.

100%. And their experience with it. That's a great line. History does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.

Yeah.

Where'd you hear that?

Kevin Systrom told me that, uh, the, the founder of Instagram.

I love that.

And I, I did love it. I don't even know if it's his line, but it's like when he said it, I was like, 'cause I love it because people say history repeats itself and it actually, it, it sort of does, but it doesn't repeat itself. It, it, it repeats the same sort of things happen because humans— themes.

Exactly.

Which is like the rhyming. So I do.

Yeah, I love that. So we never— I got to circle back to the Shark Tank because you didn't tell me how you ended up as a shark. So then you become very successful.

Yeah.

And then did they call you and say, hey, you want to be a shark because you were the biggest reject that we made a mistake on?

When I sold it to Amazon, you know, for like, you know, the sort of the billion— I mean, and for that, like, the billion is like, you know, a billion dollars, which was like, you know, it was the largest by far of a Shark Tank company at that point that had sold.

For sure.

And so it's just such a big headline. And they said, you know, do you want to come on and be a shark? And it was like, I mean, talk about like, to me, I looked at going on Shark Tank as like an amateur athlete going to the Olympics, you know, like to me, like being on Shark Tank as a, as a, like a person, like as an entrepreneur, that was like going on to the Olympics. And then I like Michael Phelps'd it, like, you know, like I won like every medal. And then I like Michael Jordan'd it, like I went to the pros. Like to be on Shark Tank as a shark was like insane. Like it was like literally like you could not even set your goal that high. It was crazy. So that was a pretty cool thing.

How many times were you a shark?

Just a couple. I mean, it turns out it's a lot of work. I mean, these people are real that are on it. You have to like invest in their companies. I don't have a back office or anything.

No, but a lot of the people, you know, not to say any names, but don't do any investment. Like Mark Cuban actually does a lot of— he puts money—

he does a lot. Lori is like super busy.

Lori does a lot. Mark does a lot. Mark does the most. Yeah, but there's a couple people—

they're all great though. Like, they've all become like—

but there's a couple of people who don't do anything. It's—

but it's really hard. Like, I mean, it's like each one is like a real business that like matters to that family. And so like, I realized, like, I invested in one and I like went back.

You did?

Yeah, it's one called Moink, M-O-I-N-K, Mooink. And we do direct-to-consumer meat, like sort of packages of meats from ethically farmed from all these small farmers. It's out in Missouri. Wonderful woman runs it, Lucinda Cramsey. And it's done really well. It went from doing $750,000 a year to $20 million now. Really profitable.

But how much money did you give her?

I gave her like a little over $700,000 in the end. Really? And I got it back. She paid it all back.

Really?

Yeah. It was just crazy. And I— so this is my personality, why I can't invest in companies is like I now own a farm in that town. I've worked on rebuilding the town. I own the bar in the town, the coffee shop. I've done the sidewalks, the streets. Like, I'm friends with the people. We put a barbecue contest on every year there. Like, I love it.

Really? Yeah. I love that.

La Belle, Missouri.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

So then, okay, so that, that's what you mean by a lot of work because you, yeah. The kind of person you are.

Yes.

You will really—

'Cause I'm not an investor.

Right. Like you are not, like you really wanna, you're like a doer.

Yeah. And I can't like have my, yeah. Like I have to have my hands into this thing.

Yeah.

Like I don't, I have no interest in like, like, like investing is such a boring thing to me in terms of like, yeah, it's just making money. Like, it's like just like a passive investor is literally, yeah, you're just making money, which is like, but it's— I'm glad they exist and it's cool and whatever. It's just like, for me, not for you. Yeah, no.

What was another company that you actually invested in?

Uh, Shark Tank was the only one I did.

That's the only one?

Yeah.

Today, like in real life, do you— are you an investor now?

Yeah, I'm an investor. I had another one called Clayton Farms, which we're just building now.

A, uh, you like farming stuff, huh?

So I do. I food, like food safe, like the whole idea of like we need to eat better and wholesome. And so Clayton Farms is the only— right now we have one in Ames, Iowa. It's the only quick serve restaurant where we grow the lettuce and the food on site. So literally, like, it's a drive-through salad place. It's like a Sweetgreen's. Oh, but where it's actually grown in the building. And so your salad is like 45 minutes old.

Stop it.

World's freshest salad. And we have a location opening up in San Francisco in a couple months.

That sounds amazing.

It's amazing. It's amazing. It's epic.

Where'd you find it?

So Clayton, yeah, uh, pinged me after I was on Guy Raz's podcast and said he wanted to build the John Deere of, of, uh, indoor farming. And he was in Iowa, and because I have this place in Missouri, I said, you can come down to my farm in Missouri if you want to meet. And he said, okay. So he drove down.

Really?

And I met him. Yeah. And then of course I put way too much money in this thing and it's crazy and I will say, like, what I've learned about quick-serve restaurants and fast food is if you want to make money, go into fried chicken or burgers.

Yeah, for sure.

Salads are a hard sell. But I don't— but I'm also like, this is my problem. Like, I don't care. Like, I, I love it. And so I think Clayton Farms is like the greatest thing ever. It's so cool.

What kind of— how much money did you give the guy?

First of all, I think I'm in it for $1 million now.

So then, and then are they— how much are they making money at all? No, I mean, I know you're not profitable.

I mean, are they selling?

Are they— the Ames location is actually like very profitable.

It's like for for like a one single location.

Yeah.

The business is not profitable yet. And then hopefully launching— I think we— I probably pushed him to make a mistake, which is like to try to like build it kind of like in the Midwest and like these places where there are food deserts.

Come to LA. That would be so well.

I think what we realized is so we're going San Francisco. I think we're going to hit the like, but like it's like sort of like it's like bringing sand to the beach here. But yes, people will use it here and whatever. But I really did it because I want to bring fresher food to places that are eating too much processed food.

Yeah, I'm just gonna have to—

it's gonna be a two-putt. I'm gonna have to first, I think, build it in the big cities, use that money to then reinvest it in— and but Clayton's mission is to do that also. Like, the, the founder is like super aligned with that. But I think we need to like grow first in like New York, LA, San Francisco, like, you know, Chicago, Miami.

Well, you know, it's funny because I don't really— everyone says it's like bringing sand to the beach, but yet the sand's always doing that does well here, you know. And I will also say there's not that many great salad places here. There really aren't. If you really think about it, there's not.

And this is like, this is insane. Like, it's like the taste is different.

I mean, like, it sounds amazing.

Yeah.

So give me an example. Like, what kind of salad would it be? Like a chicken salad?

Or like, I mean, it's like regular. It is like regular, like whatever. Like, we have like so great salad.

I'm gonna Google this after.

Yeah, the base is great. I mean, because it's the, it's all like fresh grown, like, like whether it's like, you Romaine or like mixed greens, whatever the hell stuff is. I don't know. He's the salad guy. And then we have, we have great dressing, like good fresh dressing. And then the ingredients are like, yeah, like it's just like, you know, good. You have like organic chicken and like whatever.

So that sounds—

I usually do like, there's a simple thing there. Like I just get like the mixed greens and like chicken and like, you know, like a raspberry vinaigrette. And it's like, that's— I'm done. Like that's some avocado chopped on there.

That sounds so good. Boom. Those are good. I like those companies. Is there any other ones that you did?

Uh, um, I have one that's— that does, uh, firefighting with dry ice. So if you think about it, water is like— we've used water since we've had fire. So like, whenever we created— whoever created fire, like some caveman, yeah, used some water to put it out. Like, that's like what we've used. And we have never— we have not evolved at all in how we fight fires in anything. And dry ice is a great way to fight fire because fire is both— it's basically heat and oxygen. and dry ice is cold and it sublimates carbon dioxide. So if you think about it, dry ice basically makes it, makes it cold. So it takes away the heat, right? And it puts off carbon dioxide, which chokes the fire.

Oh, that's interesting.

So it's a really, and it just leaves nothing behind. So if like a house caught on fire and you sprayed dry ice into it, right, it wouldn't ruin the house. There's no water. So the problem is the water, like in a house fire, usually why a house is like sort of, you know, like maybe one room, but like the water goes through the ceiling and like destroys the whole thing. It fills the whole thing up. And so it's a really interesting, it's very hard to like, how do you store it? All this stuff. So that's what we've been figuring out. So he has some stuff now and he actually just launched the, the, this guy who's doing it just launched the first product, uh, with it, which is more for industrial.

So that's a good one also.

Battery fires. That's cool.

Yeah. These are interesting.

Yeah. I'll lose all my money at some point on all these.

So, oh, that's okay. But listen, you have a lot. I mean, not a billion, but you have a lot.

Yeah.

And so how much long, like how long's your deal with Amazon? You're just gonna stay there indefinitely?

At this point, yeah, just indefinitely. I mean, it's like, I, I, I, it's AI has made Ring feel like it's back in the garage again. Like there's just so many things we can do.

Yeah, I totally feel the same way.

And like every day, I mean, I'm on calls now, like building product that feels like we're back to, cause it's like they're groundbreaking, you know, whereas I'd say when we got to the end, when I was in like 2021, 22, 23, it was like more iterative, which is still fine. I mean, we, I think we still did great. Great products, but they were more iterations. Like, we're gonna go higher on the kilobits on the camera and better audio. And like, it was just fine. But now we're like just iterating at like a level that's just, I haven't even, like, it's crazy the stuff we're gonna come out with. And so I think if that slows down at some point, which I, I maybe it's 5 years, 10 years, 20, I don't know, whatever it is, maybe then I'd be bored again and wanna do something else and I'll figure it out. But for right now, I'm just like all in and just building stuff.

So, okay, so I didn't even ask you this because it was not that important, but— well, it is important, but I was more interested in the Rolex watch, apparently, than the nonprofit. But so you're from New Jersey.

Yeah.

When did you move to L.A. and where did you go to school?

So I went to school. So I grew up in New Jersey, went to Babson College.

Okay.

In Boston.

What did you get?

Entrepreneurship, actually.

Oh, you know, you hate being an entrepreneur, not an entrepreneur and all the things. Yeah.

Yeah. So I got a degree in entrepreneurship. And then started like a little telecom business that I met a guy doing that had a business plan thing. And then through that met another guy in telecom and he was doing phone cards and he wanted to move it to San Diego. And so I just moved to— I was like 23 years old.

Okay. So you've been on the West Coast since then?

Moved to San Diego, met a girl in L.A. She said she— I was going to move back to the East Coast. Like, I was just like here temporarily.

Right.

And she's like, I literally, on our first date, I'm like, just so you know, like, I'm moving back to Boston at some point. She's like, oh, okay. Like, you know, I'd like to live in Boston. She's a liar. My wife, Erin.

Oh, wow.

So, yeah. And so literally when we got engaged, like the next morning, like, literally, I'm not kidding. Like the morning after we got engaged, she's like, just FYI, we're not moving back to the East Coast.

And you're like, oh, that's nice to know now.

I was like, that's really great. I'm like, that's really— give me the ring back. Yeah, no, it's fine. Yeah. But I, and I love— so I've been now in California a long time, so I love Southern California. Los Angeles. I wish we could get maybe some better people to run some things here, but I do love the place and the people.

Well, it's funny because most people who have a business or made a lot of money, they've already left. Like, the last person to shut the lights off, you know.

I worry about that, right?

Because there's no— like, no business is even here anymore.

I mean, the, the very few, very few. The seizure tax, if that passes, will really, uh— I mean, it's already had a huge impact on Oh, me too. California. And I think it's just, it's a sad one because it goes after like the very core of what we are here, which is like the one thing we really are in California is entrepreneurs. Like we are inventors. Like this is, this place has been built on crazy inventors.

But they all leave once they, before they sell their business, they're all leaving.

Luckily there's more. I think the hopeful side is there's always more coming in and California has always been a place that just like inspires invention. But yeah, I think it's, it's, it's, you know, I love, I love it. So I hope it, I hope it lasts for a long time and can go through its stuff. San Francisco is a good example of a place that actually is becoming, you know, like, like Daniel Laurie has really turned San Francisco around, which is kind of cool to see. And so hopefully depending on like where we go here, like I'm, I'm hopeful that California will be a great place to do business again at some point.

Are you going to keep on with the ring or is there any other invention in you that you're curious to kind of explore?

It's funny because I, I, that's like my problem is like I couldn't find, it's not invention. It's like the thing that impacts people at scale. And so like once you've had 100 million devices out there stopping crime and doing this, and when things happen, you're sort of seeing it literally on like TV in the morning without doing anything. You're seeing like Ring was well, you know, it's like, I think it's really hard to then just go and like build something because it's like, what is it?

Are your parents so proud of you?

Sadly, my dad passed away before Ring came out. So like, that was a bummer. I mean, a bummer for many reasons that he died, but, but I think he would have loved to have like, he would have gotten a kick out of this. My mom is funny. She still lives in Jersey, like kind of like same place. And she's, she's a, she's a funny little sparky lady and like, yeah, she's, she's pretty proud. My brother is great and he's proud. And so yeah, it's been cool.

What did your dad do?

He was like the guy behind an entrepreneur. So he would always tell me like, James, you need to, just take a small amount and just work for someone, you know, like he was always like the CFO kind of, right, of the company, the second in command, second in command kind of guy, like the guy working for the guy. And he was like, that's what you want to be. You never want to be out front. And I'd always be like, you're out of your mind, Dad. Like, I just want to— and so he had this business partner, the guy he worked for, Adam Ambieli. And so all like, it's just like my dad be telling me this and I'd be like looking at Adam and be like, I'm going to be that guy, right? Oh, wow. It's just kind of a funny thing of how kids are and, you know, And then look what happened.

You created an entire category that was never even existing before.

Yeah.

Wow. Did your mother even understand the caliber of what she's doing? Like what you did?

I think like, I don't think I did. Well, that's why it's like not even my mom. I think like, you know, until honestly, until I left Ring, you know, 5 years after Amazon.

Yeah.

Even after I sold it, like, I don't think I fully recognized the impact we had. Um, I think there's something about being inside of a company, 'cause you're seeing, like, I see the problems every day. Like, I see my emails on every box. Like, we're not perfect. Like, there's a customer service that, like, 'cause customer has an issue. So, so I think until I, like, left and all that noise went away and I could just see the world, like, clean slate, it was like, holy cow. Like, this thing is really like, wow.

I'm sure. Are you still, are you still friends with all your old friends? Like, before you became not a billionaire?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I'm friends with, I'm friends with, yeah. Like all my, like my friends from high school. I mean, it's hard 'cause I, grew up in New Jersey, so there's a little bit of— but like, I go back to New Jersey at least once a year. We get together and have a big dinner and stuff. And so like, yeah, like it's, it's like I've tried to maintain friends with a lot of the guys from college are still friends.

And do you have any advice for people who are listening to this and how to structure businesses where they don't get diluted like you got diluted like this? Or it's all— it's all—

I think it's actually more of if you're— I think the biggest problem is not dilution or not dilution. I think it's the problem is when someone raises a little bit of money, but they're like worried about their dilution. I think you either got to be like, if you're going to raise money from venture capitalists, drop the hammer.

Yeah.

Go as fast as you can, as hard as you can, raise as much as you can. Who cares what you own? Just freaking go. And if you're not going to do that, do the opposite, which is like raise a tiny bit of money, be super careful, go slower. Like, I think it's like one or the other. I think the one where people I see the worst is that they go a little slower because they want to hold their value, but yet they never build the value because they're going too slow. And so I think it is like if you're, you know, because venture capitalists, they're like, the good thing is they were aligned with what I was doing.

Yeah.

Like they wanted me to go fast. They wanted me to take the money and like just rip it and rip it.

How much do you think it's your likability and your, your, like, your, the kind of person you are versus the idea? Um, I mean, people invest in which one do you think people invest in?

I mean, I think to create, like, to create something that's like a ring, is luck because it's just like, there's just too many things outside of your control. Timing, um, market conditions. Like there's just so many things that are outside of your control. Now I think different times call for different people and whatever. And I think like, like a Ring needed, like whoever was going to build the Ring of that time needed to be my type of personality, which is like grit, go fast. you know, sort of break everything in the process kind of thing. And I think like different companies take different types of people at different times that become these like, like Anthropic, like, you know, talk about a company that seems to be just like breaking out right now and doing stuff that's like, I mean, crushing and like breaking everything. I mean, like, you know, and it's like Dario's a totally different type of person than I would be. I mean, just like could not be more from what I've seen. Like, I don't know. I don't know him, but like could not be more different. So I think it is.

You know, it's like there's just different people for different businesses in different times.

Do you think they're going to take over ChatGPT in terms of popularity and use and everything else?

I mean, it looks like they could be a runaway. It looks like they could be the NVIDIA, you know, like NVIDIA, which is, which is insane. Like, I don't think people even like recognize how insane it is that in the most important part of the most important market that maybe has ever existed in the world, there's one company that basically controls it all, which is NVIDIA. There's people that make chips, but no one's even close to them. It seems like it seems, I mean, actually just looked looks like Amazon might have now with these like Trainium and some of this stuff actually might be sort of catching up, which is, which is very hopeful for because I'm an Amazonian. But I mean, even if, even if Amazon catches up, it'd be too, like, it's crazy. Something that's like literally the biggest, most important market ever in history of the world. And like right now, and it looks like Anthropic might be breaking out to just be ahead of everyone in such a way that's like, it's, it's fascinating to watch.

It is. It's a whole different time.

Yeah.

Is there anything I haven't asked you, or I— that I missed, that you think is important to add? I—

no, I think like the— I think the most important thing, like, people are listening, and like, is just like, I think it is like, go for something. To me, it's like, go for something you're passionate—

if people are listening.

I meant— yeah, I guess if. I mean, I shouldn't say if. Like, hopefully those that are listening—

hopefully have one or two people.

No, but I mean, it's like, it's like, you know, I'm humble.

If, you know You know, it's, uh, yes, but humility.

But you know, it's like the thing you're— go for the thing you're passionate about, be who you are, and like work hard. And I do think with AI, the grit side is going to become way more valuable than all this other crap that's been like, you know, the Stanford person and the, the best developers and the best this. It's like, the best developer's Claude.

Exactly.

Like, it's not— no, and, but that's not putting down engineers. It's just the best engineers now are the ones that know that they're not the best, that using 100 AI agents at their disposal and then managing that, that they're— that's the most powerful thing they can do.

Well, there's nothing also that could ever take the place of human connection, relationships, community.

Let's hope.

Uh, I know, I know.

Let's hope. No, but I'm actually, I actually agree with you. I'm very hopeful that basically be, you know, I think that no matter how intelligent AI becomes, there is a reason why humans— it's the EQ side becomes more valuable. For sure. And EQ is grit. Like, yes, like IQ is not grit. EQ is grit.

Believe me, I— listen, I talk about this ad nauseam. I mean, if you're listening, people who are listening, this is like my, my speech every day. Grit, you know, going after things, not overthinking it, like believe, you know, all the things, right? Like persistence.

But what was amazing is like there was a time in the last 10 or 20 years where like intelligence trumped grit.

When?

Oh, I would say for sure there's a lot of examples of companies where like—

Tell me, give me 3.

Give me 3. Oh God. Now you put me on the spot with that.

I want to know 3 companies where intelligence was more important than grit.

Like write an email later.

Yeah.

Well, no, but I think there was a time.

How about two?

No, I think there's definitely a time when you can't even think of any. I can't think of, I mean, off the top of my head. I mean, like, yeah.

Well, no, you, you made a very pertinent statement.

That was right. That was, you got me.

I don't really think if there's any that I think of.

Yeah.

I did an entire TED Talk on this topic.

Yeah, you might be right.

So that's why I'd be curious to hear what you have to say.

Maybe I always just like to think that like grit matters more with it. I think, I think I want to think that grit matters more with AI because the more you democratize No, I'm saying I agree. No, I know you agree with that, but then I was like thinking, I guess it's, but I guess it's always been grit.

When it's not grit, it's nepotism.

Maybe, you know, maybe you still needed when you, maybe you need a gritty person needs less of the super intelligent stuff. Like now it's like, cause it used to be still like, like Facebook still needed, Google still needed like. Yes. So maybe it's like you could build those now without having to find, because it used to be like that was part of the hard part was like finding these engineers to come on there with you.

I hear what you're saying.

Maybe, maybe it's that.

Well, what I would think is what you need for a deadly— like, it's like a deadly whatever, like to be like the secret weapon is someone who's incredibly gritty and then who also has the, like, the, like, analytic intelligence. Because usually one doesn't come with the other, right? Street smarts is very different than academics. Yeah, I'm a big street smart person, you know.

But I do think the world's going to go more to the street smarts now because the academic side has been democratized.

Yes. Okay.

That's true. I guess maybe that's my—

but I don't, I mean, I would be curious later on. Doesn't it? I'll let you take a few days, even a week, and get back to me on which companies did intelligence versus—

well, I guess maybe you could look at like the founders of a lot of companies had to code before, like, like Mark Zuckerberg.

Yeah. Okay.

Like Mark Zuckerberg, the next Mark Zuckerberg is not going to be, not going to necessarily be someone who like came from a place where they had to like code and they were like, Mark Zuckerberg is incredibly intelligent. Yes, he's incredibly insanely intelligent.

Is he your friend also?

I actually, I don't really know Mark that well.

Oh, okay, go ahead.

Um, but like, but, but he is insanely intelligent.

Yeah.

And he needed to be to build what he had to build, to do it, to like structure it in the code. And I think the next per— like, I'm seeing, I'm seeing entrepreneurs now that are like all the coding, the apps, everything else, they're just doing it. They're, they don't know anything about coding, but they're building this stuff. Who's the most impressive entrepreneur that you, you can think Um, there's, there's a ton. I'm trying to think who's the most impressive entrepreneur. I mean, I think James Dyson is probably the one that sticks out the most for me because he's the balance of invention, engineering, business building, brand building, like personal brand, like all of it together. Like, and stands for someone who's like a great human too. Like, so it's like kind of like all of it in one.

Have you ever, have you ever?

Never met him. No, I know. I got, I got, I need to, I need to like, it's like, I don't know. I keep always saying I gotta reach out to him. I just have never, I've never met someone that seems to know him to like get, yeah.

Interesting.

So I gotta, I gotta, I gotta, I do need to make that happen. Cause he was, I did look with Ring. Like he was like, what, not like my mentor, but I sort of had him as a mentor of when I said to you, like, if you go into a store and you see Ring, to me it was like, that was the thing that I was able to type that off of was Dice Dyson. Yeah, when you go into a store and you see Dyson on a box, whatever that box is— hair dryer, a vacuum— you're like, I know this is the best.

Like, so true.

And that— I wanted Ring to stand for that in our own way, in our— not the best like in the Dyson way, but the best in like home security and like—

but it does, like, that's what's really— it's synonymous with it. Exactly, it is synonymous with it. Like, when you think of any type of, uh, camera like that, like Wi-Fi camera, Ring is the only one. It's synonymous with Kleenex or whatever. I keep on thinking—

so Dyson is like the Dyson vacuum?

Yeah, the Dyson vacuum.

Like my wife said the other day, I'm gonna grab the Dyson. She came and she vacuumed something else. You know, it's not a Dyson.

Yeah, like you said to me earlier, that's— that was Nest.

Or like, what a great compliment of something.

It's like, yeah, like, that's what I'm saying. What you did was like incredibly— yeah, just impressive in every way.

So I think of like what he's done, I think it's like, that's That's probably one of the most impressive people. Again, in my space of things, there's lots of entrepreneurs have done incredible things, but like, that's like my space of what I look at.

And yeah, it's amazing. Okay, well, where do people find, like, I guess you can buy a ring if you don't have one.

Probably if you are, you should definitely buy a ring.

Yeah, 100%. But 100 million, I'm sure most people already who are listening have a ring, but maybe use the different features, like the dog feature, the other feature.

We have lots of AI features coming out. So yeah, we, I mean, the, the ring, I mean, that's the cool thing. Ring right now is like the amount of features we're putting out every, like, week, month is unbelievable.

Unbelievable.

It's really cool.

I know. I like my, thank God I have my Ring. I love it.

Thank you.

And I'm not just saying that to be polite. I mean it.

No, I appreciate that.

All right. Well, thank you for being on the Habits and Hustle. I think we're, we're done. I think I've asked you every question that—

Thanks for, I mean, people can, I, I came out with a book called Ding Dong.

Why didn't you say so?

Because, you know, it's like, I'm a, I'm, I'm a promoter. It's funny. I'm like a promoter for Ring, not for myself. I'm like, I don't like—

What that is? Ding Dong. When did it come out?

It came out last year and it's kind of the story of Ring up until the day we sold. So it's not like post-sale, but it's like all these hijinks and things we did and stuff that we went through and crazy stuff. Yeah.

Can I say one thing that's driving me crazy? Okay. Your shirt, it looks like the eye, the dot on the eye, it looks like it is a coffee stain. Why did you not make it orange or a different color? It just looks like it's a coffee stain. I'm just staring at it the whole time. This is probably just a shirt.

This is like an older one. So like this is probably the shirt, but I don't know. Maybe I should.

I don't know. That's just like something I know. Okay, bye guys. Have a great day. Oh, I should also say, guys, if you have not subscribed, please subscribe if you're watching this. Um, also any type of comment or anything you want to share is always great for us to kind of make this podcast as good as it can be. If you have a guest that you'd want me to reach out to, uh, please let me know. And then thank you to Jamie.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Bye.