Transcript of Viola Davis

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Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We have the best of the best. We have the GOAT. We have Viola Davis joining us. And man, we talk about so many fun things. We talk about growing up in Rhode Island and Boston and how we get rid of those accents. We talk about our mutual best friend. Meryl Streep. We talk about the time she jumped out of a plane and all the swearing she did on the way down. And we talk about the new book that she co-wrote with James Patterson called Judge Stone, out now. So we're gonna get into a lot of great stuff, and we're thrilled to have her here. And as we always do, we talk to someone at the beginning of the show that we— that knows our guest or is a fan of our guest and has a question for us, and we talk well behind their back. And boy, We've got just a gem of a person. Julius Tennon, Viola Davis's husband, partner, producing partner, incredible, loving, supportive, wonderful man who makes us all believe in love. He's the only spouse that we've allowed to be on the show, um, so far.

And, uh, the expectation is high. So I cannot wait to talk to Julius. Julius, thank you for joining us.

Hi.

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I can. Hey, Angie.

Hi, it's such a pleasure to meet you.

Well, it's a pleasure to meet you too. And I just want to say quickly that we love you and you're always amazing and funny as hell and all that stuff. So, so nice to meet you.

Julius, thank you so much. You're welcome. You got me blushing already. Thank you for saying that. I want you to know that we—

I mean it.

I mean it. Well, I can tell that about you. I think you say what you mean, you and Viola.

Yes, yes, we do.

Thank you for that. We, you know, so we do this thing at the beginning of whenever we interview someone, we talk to someone that knows them really well, and we get a question for them. And we just talk well behind their back. And I want you to know you are the first spouse that we have spoken to among all of our guests.

I feel honored.

And I think it's because you two seem to actually really like each other.

We kind of do. We kind of do.

Now, pleasure to meet you, Julius. You know, you're an actor, writer, producer. You're the president of Juvie Productions, which is the company that you and Viola and others run. And you've got amazing projects that you've done and are getting ready to do. But can I start by just asking you to take us back to the day that you and Viola met on set?

Oh, wow. That was incredible. It was 1999. It was City of Angels. I was playing an anesthesiologist. She was Nurse Lynette Peeler, and, um, I was passing blood to her. And I was dating a girl at the time that I wasn't so happy with. And then so I said, wow, this lady looks like she could be somebody nice I could maybe give my card to. So at the end of the day, I gave her my card, and I had my shirt on. The story is Viola said if my shirt had been off, she would have never called me. But I had my shirt on, and I gave her I gave her my card and I said, "Hey, if you ever want to hang out, whatever, whatever, give me a call." Well, she did. A month later, she called me. I had literally forgot about it, but I hadn't forgot about her. So when I heard her voice, I went, "Hey!" What? And then she invited me to a cast thing for the main cast, 'cause I was recurring on the show. And we went out on our first date almost 27 years ago. And here we are.

23 years married coming up this summer, 27 years this October. So it's been beautiful. But that's how— that's how it started.

Oh, I love that story. And I love that you guys met just your typical way, just passing blood to each other.

Yeah, just passing the regular stuff, just passing blood, you know. And she kind of fit in those, you know, she fit in those things pretty good. And I was like, hmm, okay, let me give this girl my card.

I mean, what's so sweet about hearing the two of you talk about each other is you both met each other when you were coming up.

Yeah, absolutely.

What's it like to be, you know, two young actors working hard to make ends meet and, you know, being in love?

Listen, it's tough. Listen, when I met Viola, she was scared to tell me she had bad credit. I said, "Hey, baby, it's okay. I got good credit." You know? But it was— it's one of those tough things. But, you know, Amy, it's about supporting one another. You support one, the other one supports the other equally. And that's what we did. We just went about kind of loving on each other and being happy for one another with whatever dropped, whatever happened. And so it just so happened that Viola's career just really started to take off. And it's been a beautiful thing. And I'm glad to be a part of it. People say, how do you handle it? How do you do what you do?

Whatever.

I said, because I know who I am. See, for a man, it starts with you knowing who you are. I don't care how powerful your woman is or what she's doing. If your woman knows that you can handle yourself and that you know who you are, then she's gonna go, "Wow, hey, my guy's good." And so that's the way Viola and I have roles. So it's about me supporting her and vice versa. So it's just been easy for us.

Oh, Julius! Everyone listening right now is just going, "Ah!" Julius! I'm just gonna play that on a loop.

Oh, thank you. And it is the truth.

But you're right.

But you have to know who you are.

You do.

You're right.

Especially in our business, because it can be so competitive. Even though we're not competing against each other— I'm a man, you're a woman— but we're not competing against each other, but we're in the same business. And sometimes that intersection, when one is elevating and the other is kind of like not It can create a lot of different kind of weird kind of energy and things in a relationship. And so, listen, what— this is what we do. It's not who we are. This acting thing and all this, what we do, it's not who we are. So we figured that out early on. And so it's just been always easy because it's always been in support of one another.

Well, it's a beautiful thing because you're reminding me of just the word self in the phrase self-esteem. It really is your own work to do, always.

Amy, I can say that I met Valeria Viola almost 27 years ago. She's the same woman I met when I met her all those years ago. Hadn't changed a bit. With everything that's happened to her, she's still the same Viola. And I think that's what makes people just so drawn to Viola because she's so real and so authentic.

Can we talk about The Woman King? Because congratulations on that.

Thank you so much. What a—

yeah.

What was that like making that together?

It was a great journey. It was great to be able to do a movie like that because a movie like that hadn't been done in Hollywood ever.

That's right.

And so to be able to do a movie like that and have it come out so beautiful, so accepted by the audiences on a global scale, it meant a whole, whole lot to Viola and myself. And so we just went all in despite the challenges, despite not necessarily having enough money to make it, but still saying, you know what? Be damned, we just gonna go make it anyway because we know it's gonna have a cultural impact and it's gonna be long-lasting. And as it turned out, you know, AFI chose it that year to be one of the great films that was made that year. And so we're just so proud to have done that together and battling it out, you know, just battling it out, fighting for what you believe in and what you want, you know? As hard as it is, Amy, you just have to keep putting one foot in front of the other. If you want something, you have to go for it. And that's what Viola and I continually with our team— because I'm a big team guy.

Well, I was going to say, you're a football— ex-football player.

I am an ex-football player.

Did you ever coach?

I never coached.

Because you have a coach vibe.

But I was, you know, I wanted to act. I was kind of like— I looked at, you know, my idols back in the day when I was thinking about acting and playing football. You know, it was Jim Brown, Bernie Casey, Fred Williamson, some of the old school guys from way back in the day when I was saying, shit, they could do it, I could do it. So, you know, that was kind of a thing. Yeah. And, but I always loved the arts. I always loved it. It started with poetry and then, you know, obviously.

Well, you have, you have Julius, you have, you have a real coach vibe and you do something that I absolutely love, which is every other sentence you say my name and boy does it work. Every time he says my name, I'm like, yes.

Hey, Amy.

He's talking to me. I love it so much. Okay. I'm sure you've, you've got a sense now of what Viola likes to be asked and what she, like, is asked constantly about and doesn't want to answer anymore. Like, you know, there's always these questions that are like, you know, people think they're asking for the first time or topics that— Is there anything you would, if you don't mind helping me out to make sure I don't get into an area or a question that she's like, "Oh, this again?" Well, you know, I think it would be fun to ask her some questions about some of the funny moments that we had together.

This one, is ask her the origin of Zuni. Okay, ask her, say, Viola, what's this whole thing about Zuni? What is that thing? Well, let me just tell you a little bit. It's, it's a, it's an animated, uh, Muppet cartoon that I grew up with, and the show was called Fireball XL-5, and Zuni was one of the endearing characters, and they were going on space exploration. It was about that, and I was a kid, I loved that show. And so that's a pet name I gave Viola. I call her Zuni. And the reason I do, because I love Zuni so much and I love Viola. So that is so endearing to me. So when I'm calling her Zuni, it's not because of what Zuni looks like. It's because I love the hell out of Zuni.

Okay, but I'm going to have to Google Zuni and see what—

Yeah, you got to Google them real quick and you'll see Fireball XL5.

Okay.

And you'll see Zuni. But I love Zuni. So ask her about Zuni.

Okay.

Other thing is ask her about our first theatrical experience, Shadow of a Gunman. Just say, you and Julius went to a play, the Shadow of a Gunman thing. What is, what is that? Bio, give, give us, let us know. She'll tell you, it's kind of a funny story. You know, the, the regular questions about the business and all that, we can always talk about projects and stuff like that, and she's great to talk about that stuff. But she oftentimes doesn't like to talk about the mundane stuff that you have to answer a thousand times. But it always surprises me She's always able to answer this stuff as if it was new. I'm like, going, how the hell you do that, Viola? You know? Yeah, I'm like, how you do that? Okay, well, she was going, people think I can pull a rabbit out of my ass. And I'm going, well, you kind of can.

Well, Julius, I know you guys, you're the best couple in the world. And you're— we're not going to be able to interview any other spouse after this because you've set such a high bar. Well, and not like it's a competition, but you've won a gold medal in relationships.

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure being with you this morning.

Same. Love talking to you. Thank you so much for your time, and, uh, and such a pleasure. Thanks again.

You too.

Okay, take care.

Bye.

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Woo-hoo-hoo!

Viola Davis is here. I'm so, so happy that you're here. Thank you.

I'm happy to be here. I've been, like, not working for the longest time.

Congrats.

So I feel like it's— I feel like I'm coming out of hibernation. Yeah.

And I'm like, "Holy shit, this is what I do." Well, I gotta tell you, we gotta start by saying you are the first EGOT we've had. And probably the last. I mean, let's get real.

I mean, that was it.

There's not a lot of us. No, there's like 18, 19?

Uh-huh.

I have to tell you that it wasn't until I won the Oscar for Fences and someone said, "You're one step away from an EGOT," I never thought of it before. I never think about it. It wasn't like the sort of thing for me.

Oh, that's so cool. I mean, it's just— it is. And again, not something anyone's like thinking about when they're starting out, but just—

It's cool.

It's cool.

It is. It's cool.

It's cool.

It's not gonna be on my gravestone, Amy, but it's cool.

It is so cool.

On my gravestone, it's gonna be, It's gonna be that I interviewed you, that you got winner. And also, before we get to her, I just gotta say the Timmy, Timothy, Timothée Chalamet shout out was so cool.

Oh, and my daughter was, that was it for her. She's 15. That was it.

Timothy Chalamet, mama.

Ooh.

I mean, good company to be in. And of course we all agreed with him, but you spoke about it and I love what you said about how you loved his speech. What did you love about it? 'Cause I did too. What, like the essence of what he was saying in that speech?

Well, because what I loved about the speech is he has a spirit of excellence.

You know, some people— I always negotiate, Amy, so if you feel like I take a long pause, I'm just negotiating what I'm about to say so I don't step on toes and I don't work ever again in the industry. But some people don't have the spirit of excellence. They have this spirit of mistaking their presence for the event, for mediocrity, for just beauty. But it's— It's great that he had the spirit of excellence without putting me in it at all. I'm not saying that. But I love that with young actors.

Me too.

And also, I love when people are, I guess, openly ambitious, and in real time saying, "I really want to try to get the best out of myself and others," like when they say it.

Absolutely.

Ambition, too, is different than ego.

Yeah, that's right.

And I saw the ambition in him.

He happens to be incredibly talented. So what kids like?

I like young people. Listen, just like I love bad kids. I love a bad kid, like a 2-year-old bad kid. Someone who comes, you know, I had a little bad kid at my wedding, my first wedding. I had 3 ceremonies, Amy. But my first wedding, I had a little bad kid who stuck his whole finger in my cake. I thought it was the best thing in the world.

So I love a bad kid, but I also love young people who have an attitude. I do.

Listen, the world is gonna get at you. It's gonna kick your ass. Just, leave you in the dumpster. So it's really great when you go out in the world and you have the chutzpah.

Yes.

You have that self-possession, right? Yes.

That's what I want with my kid. I was so, so much of a good girl, you know, with shitty boyfriends who made me feel like shit. And I was just still, like, worshiping at their feet. So yeah, I like—

I like attitude.

Do you think that's an East Coast thing? Because we're both East Coast. I grew up in Boston. You're Rhode Island. You weren't born there, but you spent most of your time in Rhode Island.

Okay.

Yeah. And what's the difference between Boston and Rhode Island?

Nothing. You still say Florida. You know, you parked the car on your father and your father and your mother. Oh, my God. I eat grinders and cabinets.

Okay.

That's different.

You drink from the bubbler. Oh, yeah.

Bubbler. The first time I said bubbler was at Cal Poly Pomona.

Which is a water fountain anywhere else.

And I said, you know where the bubbler is? And guy, literally, he stood there for the longest time.

He was like, I was like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" And he finally said, "The water fountain." I was like, "Water fountain?

With the statues?" Well, did you say pocketbook instead of purse?

Oh, no. Pocketbook all the way.

Pocketbook?

And wicked good.

Wicked. Everything is wicked good. I mean, my parents, they would go into a bar, they'd be like, "Can we have a beer?" And they'd be like, "Oh, you're from Boston?" And they'd be like, "How do you know?" Well, just one word. There's a part of growing up on the East Coast that gives you a directness that I wouldn't know I wouldn't want to trade. I like that about people.

Yes.

But the other side of that coin can be like a roughness, like a just a toughness and roughness.

And you know, Amy, I'm Black, so comes with a different set of rules of roughness.

Yeah.

You know? And so, you know, I came from plain-spoken people.

Yeah.

You know, I always say it's like— it's like— I'm negotiating.

Oh my God, I love the sound of your nego— We should put some music over it when you're thinking on what to say.

Yeah. Tupac. You could put Tupac music. But I just remember visiting someone at one point, and I took a bus, and I got off the bus, and I told my friend, "Well, make sure the person who's coming to pick me up, they know who I am.

Okay?" I waited there, Amy. 30 minutes, maybe longer, waiting for the person to pick me up. Finally, I find them. I go to my friend and I said, "Why couldn't they find me?" And he said, "Well, I described you." I said, "Well, how did you describe me?" "Oh, I just said you were cute and you had long hair." Amy, I'm Black with long braids. I said, "Did you tell them I was Black? I was the only Black girl on the bus." He was like, "Oh, I didn't feel like I could." Don't say that.

You know? But the thing with— where you're talking about plain spoken, the thing about Black people, they call it as it is. You know that Black girl who come out and she got the tattoo on her left titty, and she got one tooth coming out of her mouth?

It's that girl.

So it's that sort of plain spokenness I grew up with, with my mom and dad. They were that plain spoken.

Well, you talk— I mean, you've spoken beautifully about your childhood growing up, and the difficulties in it, and the way that you've, like, been processing it in real time as an adult now. And— but I think, and I don't know if this is the same for you, as I get older, I start trying to look at my, my origin, the place of origin, and figure out what gifts it gave me and what pain it gave me at the same time. Right. And there is this something about growing up on the East Coast. I don't know, that sticks with you. And I know this sounds silly, but like the accent that we just did, like the accent sticks around. I always say, like, when I'm angry or really excited, I'm excited, my accent comes out sometimes. Does your accent?

My accent comes out too, even when I'm acting. Especially in an emotional scene, and it just surprises me.

It'll jump out at me.

And, you know, of course, I went to a school in New York that kills your accent. You'll get thrown out if you still have an accent at Juilliard by your fourth year. And by my second year, they warned me and said, "You cannot come back to the school until you—" "Fix up whatever the hell this is going on." And so, I remember, like, every single day for 2 hours practicing how to say "father" instead of "fatha." And, you know, at Juilliard, when you speak too, when you're walking around, they put a pencil in your mouth. During rehearsal, they put a pencil in your mouth to see where your tongue is when you're articulating your sentences. So, I was traumatized into just going, catapulting that, not realizing that's a beautiful thing. Yeah.

Have you ever gotten to play anyone with a, you know, with a Rhode Island accent or Boston accent and like let it rip? No, Amy.

Nobody's writing a Black girl from Rhode Island roles.

Well, maybe we do a road trip.

Yeah, maybe I need to write it.

Maybe you need to write it. I mean, you're talking about going to Juilliard and And you've talked a lot about it and your training there and what you took from it. And before you got there, who told you, or when did you have that feeling of, "I wanna be an actor"? The reason why I ask, I'm the daughter of school teachers. No one I knew was an actor. I didn't know any actors. I didn't— Of course, I knew famous people in movies and TV, but I didn't know that would be a job of mine. But I was in school plays, and people would come up and say, "You were good." You know, like, you hung in there. And it surprises you, right?

But for me, it's gradual. So it's hard to pinpoint one person in one moment. But I swear to you, the more I think about it, I have to pinpoint the moment that we won the skit contest at Jenks Park when I was 8 years old. Amy, that was it.

Yeah. Because I was so shy. Yeah. You know, and brutally shy.

Yeah. Like, to the point where I couldn't speak in public. And so we did the skit, you know, and I played the Ooh Wee Kid from That's My Mama. That's Ted Lange. I don't know if you remember that show. I don't want to age you. No. What show? It's called That's My Mama. Okay. And he was the Ooh Wee Kid. He was the gossipy guy. He would come in and go, "Ooh wee, wee." I got it, I got it. I'm here to report it. So I was an Ooh Wee kid. My sister Dolores was, um, what's his name from Let's Make a Deal? Montel. Oh, Monty Hall. Monty Hall. She was Monty Hall. My sister Anita was, uh, was, uh, Esther. Aunt Esther from Sanford and Sons. And my sister, um, uh, Diane was Fred Sanford. Oh my God. I think I put— I have it in my book, but we created a, uh, a game show sort of reality show where we had to come on and tell tell a story of how you saved a life. And whoever had the best story won a million dollars. What were you—

What are you in the birth order of the sisters? Next to the youngest.

I have one younger sister who was my baby.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So, wow. So, three— So, four girls in the same family rehearsing, like, doing skits, doing comedy.

Having rewrites. Yeah.

Treating it really—

Having rewrites. We had a little wardrobe budget of $2.50. We'd go to Salvation Army and— you know, or raid my mom's closet.

The whole thing was we did the skate contest because we were like, these fucking people in this town, fuck her, fuck her. I mean, people who like were bullies. Yeah. You know, and we were like, we're going to stick it to them. We're going to win. The confidence. Yeah. Once again, the self-possession and just being— and everyone in Central Falls was there. People were sitting on rocks.

You know, the newspaper was there, Amy.

And we won. Damn.

That must have been so exciting. Viola, I mean, it's gonna be hard for me to not talk about how great you are this whole time. To me, that story feels like when an athlete realizes, like, "Oh, I'm naturally good at hitting a baseball," or something. You know, you are so good at what you do.

Well, I appreciate that.

And the naturalness of what you do, combined with your ability determination and skill. It's just— So, I mean, I wish I could have a time machine and go back to that day and see you performing because I can only imagine that people pointed at you and said, "Wow." Well, I don't know if anyone pointed at me and said, "Wow," but I pointed at myself and I said, "Wow." And how do you go from there to Juilliard? How do you— You know what? We'll never know. You never know. But what do you audition with to get into Juilliard?

I auditioned with Celie from Color Purple.

Oh, God. That was my dramatic. And then I auditioned with a sort of comedy piece from— Goddamn it, I'm forgetting. Oh, boy. But it was a sort of French comedy.

Like farce? Like a farce kind of thing? Uh-huh. Yeah. I mean, when you were doing Shakespeare, what— Do you have a way to memorize Shakespeare? Or, like, how do you like to memorize?

It's a process. So, you have to figure out who you are, what you live for, all that other stuff that nobody ever wants to hear about, by the way.

It's so boring.

It really is. It's boring. It is.

I know what you mean. But what is cool about it is, I think that the skill involved with the, you know, the hard work, which is the theme, I would say, of looking at your body of work and your life, is that you just have never shied away from hard work. You've never run away from it. And memorizing is really hard.

Memorizing is—

But you know what? Memorizing is the least difficult part of acting. Oof.

I think I've— These days, I don't know.

I'm finding it's so hard. Now, lately, it is.

I was just like—

You know, when you have another actor looking in your face and they're waiting for the line. Now, I'm big with this. And then you know that someone has dropped— I did this with Meryl Streep, you know, in Doubt. She had a line, I had a line or whatever, and then nothing. I'm looking in her face, nothing. She's saying nothing. I'm saying nothing. It's obviously someone dropped the line. And then I realize she's the one who dropped the line.

Oh, my God. Thank God.

Meryl fucking Streep dropped the line. And so then we did it 3 times. 3 more times, 3 more times, that scene.

She kept dropping the line. And in my brain, I was like, "Say the fucking line." Of course. But I can't tell Meryl Streep, "You forgot the line, Meryl. You keep forgetting the line." And finally, we did it, and she was like, "Why does something feel off?" And I said, "Because you keep forgetting the line.

You forgot the line, Meryl." And she's like, "I'm not perfect." And then she— No, she just said, 'Well, why didn't you say something?' And you did say something.

And— but, but the, the, the, the, um, Shakespeare itself feels just like you really gotta— I guess your point, you got to just keep living in it and living in it.

Well, here's the hardest thing about Shakespeare too.

Please, what the hell are you saying?

What the fuck are you saying? And what are you saying? And also the iambic pantomime. And also, boy, actors are gonna kill me for this, but I went to Juilliard. And you don't want it to be boring.

Listen, they're not gonna kill you for that. Here's the thing about Shakespeare. All it is is people acting it and listening to it and going like this, "Mm-hmm." And I'm like, "You don't know what you're talking about, and we don't know what you're saying." Well, here's the thing too, and if you don't know what they're saying, then they're not doing it correctly.

Exactly. But you can't say, "You know what?" I thought, "It's boring." I know! At Juilliard, I would fall asleep a lot. Oh, my God. I have a friend who it would piss her off. As soon as I was in the class, we'd have the greatest actors, greatest Shakespearean actors in the world come to the school. Within 5 minutes, I would be dead asleep. I would be knocked out with my lip hitting my lap. I mean, I would be knocked out.

And to this day, she was like, "I can't even believe you would do that." "I can't believe you would do that." And I said, "Did you ever—

did it ever occur to you that it just didn't excite me?" But that's the thing with Shakespeare. You just don't want it to be boring because at the end of the day, here's the thing, it's just about people. They can be kings and queens.

00:30:23

I mean, it's a soap opera most of the time, those plays. But is it— I mean, thank you for saying that because the thing about, like, art in general is, If you don't figure out how to find a way in, sometimes you feel really strange when everybody else is in there and you're like, "What is it? How come I can't connect?" Yeah.

But Amy, let me tell you something. We going down the road of talking by acting like it's real deep. People don't see it. I see it as deep. You see it as deep. Most people do not see it as deep because, once again, it's about mistaking your presence for the event. Yeah. It's about— That's right. I mean, my big thing are love scenes. I can't stand love scenes. I can't stand watching them. I can't stand doing them. I'm like, ooh. I finally said, "How to Get Away with Murder," I'm not doing any more love scenes anymore. I mean, that's it. You write a love scene, I'm not doing it.

Unless you give me a boyfriend who has a stomach. Wait, say more. A big gut. And you know why? 'Cause you'll actually write the scene. It won't be about taking off the shirt and the six-pack abs.

I mean, I'm watching—

I did a scene with Billy Brown, who I love. Billy Brown, love everyone. And it's TV. So, Annalise Keating is in bed. Annalise Keating sort of sleeps with a lot of people, men, women, which— cannot be any opposite for me.

I mean, I'm like, "Oh my God." So—

And I'm in the bed, I'm laying down and everything. And then he gets up with his underwear, and they—

I mean, they literally just taking his underwear down, putting his makeup on, and he's got his abs.

And then they want him to walk into the bathroom and come out with, you know, one of those scrub brushes. And slap it on his hand as if he's slapping my ass. So he's like, "Slap, slap, slap," as we're saying the dialog. I'm in the scene, Amy, and I'm like, "You gotta cut. You gotta cut.

Please cut." That is— That's my nightmare. That's a nightmare.

It's a friggin' nightmare. That's a nightmare. So I said, "If you write someone with a gut, maybe we won't be in bed. Maybe it'll be about everything else." And then when we finally kiss, it's like, It's like something that's organically happening. But right now, for me, a lot of love scenes, it's like, "That's the time to go to the bathroom." If you want to pick up, go to the bathroom. You come back, you haven't missed anything.

Oh my God, I feel you. I feel you. I've not done many, but the couple times it's been on the call sheet, I'm like, "Oh no. This is the worst day." And by the way, anybody that's like, "Ooh, I got a love scene today," red flag.

I had to do a love scene with Tom Verecka, who cannot be more lovely. How to Get Away with Murder, first love scene. Well, actually, my first love scene was with Billy Brown in the— and it got cut. And I'm so happy it got cut because we were having sex on my car in Philadelphia. It was 12 degrees.

I was freezing. I was terrified.

First love scene in my life, but the second love scene, Tom Vareka, who plays my husband, had to get murdered.

So we're getting prepared for the love scene in the trailer, and the makeup artists are saying, "So, do you want anything to cover?" I mean, I have stretch marks. I mean, I got stretch marks everywhere.

I got stretch marks on my ass, I got stretch marks on my arms, I got stretch marks everywhere. I'm just gonna say it.

And so I'm like, "Yeah, I want makeup." I want makeup on my arms. I want makeup on my ass. And it's like, I got makeup on my ankles. Okay? He's getting makeup on— I mean, we're just basically spraying ourselves with makeup.

Both of us terrified, okay? And then finally, I had the big aha moment. I said, Tom, this is what we're going to do. We're going to hold it up for the regular people. Yes! We're going to hold it up for the people out there who, you know, may have a little bit of something sticking out there or whatever.

And there was makeup all over the sheets, makeup all over the bed, you know? You know, thank God my wig didn't come off, you know?

And that was— There was nothing sexy about it. Nothing. When you do a love scene, in my opinion, there's nothing sexy about it. It's just— it's hard. Your search for the realness in things, like the way you're looking for the truth in things in your own life and in your work, It dovetails so beautifully with August Wilson. Can you talk about how you felt about doing his work and how important he is to you as a writer?

Well, he's important because he writes about Black people. It's our cadences. It's my mom, my dad, my father. It's how we talked, you know? How I listened to them, how I talked, you know? And that's the beauty of it because, you know, otherwise, listen, I went to Juilliard. We were doing George Bernard Shaw, Strindberg, you know, Chekhov, who I love. I love Shakespeare, so I did Blanche DuBois.

I mean, it was just a scene, but I had to do— If you've ever read Blanche DuBois, I could not be any different than Blanche DuBois. She's extremely fragile. You know, fading beauty queen. You know, all of those things. So to see and to hear me, you know, take my deep voice and try to wheel it down and sound like a little white Southern woman and doing all that, it was like, I'm like, "Oh my—

I can't do this." I mean, I shouldn't say I can't do it. I can do it. I can transform. I could do all of that. But then, you know, people in the audience have got to, you know, "Let me ignore the fact that this is a deep-voiced Black woman who is self-possessed and very grounded and is not—" But with August Wilson, I don't have to do any of that.

I still have to do the work.

But I could do a work in a way that invites me in, you know? And that's the beauty of— that's the beauty of August Wilson.

And you're nominated for a Tony 3 years after you get out of school for that. I mean, do you remember when you found out you were nominated? That must have been an incredible feeling.

I found out I was nominated, you know, back in the day, back in the day when you had those, um, um, answering machines that you had to call. You had to call the answering machine. I would call every single day to see if I had an audition.

So I called, and my agent at the time said, "Viola, you got a Tony nomination." Oh, my God. I ran to my parents' house.

They don't know what a Tony Award is. And my little nieces and nephews, they don't know what the hell a Tony Award is. I ran in the house, I said, "You guys!" My little nieces and nephews, they were in their diapers running around. Around acting bad, like I love bad kids. I ran in the house and I said, you guys, I got a Tony nomination.

And they were— they started throwing themselves on the floor.

They didn't know what the hell a Tony nomination was.

But we all just jumped.

And I mean, come on. Yeah. Amazing. Come on. Oder Dr. Oetker Vitalis Müsli ab 516 Gramm für nur 2,22 ALDI.

Gutes für alle. You were a very accomplished working actor on a lot of shows before a kind of America at large knew your name. You had a really substantial body of work. Do you feel like That allowed you— it was just like that 10,000 hours idea that you worked really hard and often and kind of figured out— you worked in TV, you worked in film, you worked on stage. You got to feel confident in your skill.

Yes. But once again, that's the task.

Yeah, but it's not always everyone's route.

No, I understand. And I understand that. And therein lies the problem. With the business that anyone feels like they can do it, you know? But there was never a time when I was at the Guthrie Theater or working in Newton, Massachusetts— I worked in Newton, Massachusetts. Um, every— I've worked everywhere. I've worked with everyone. Huntington Theater, ACT, Mark Taper Forum, Goodman Theater.

I thought I'd already made it. Yeah, I did. Yeah. You know, making your $650 a week, and then you did your 10 weeks, and then you qualified for unemployment.

So you You got your unemployment, and sure, you call in that unemployment every Sunday, get that $350. I think it went up to $390 a week. I thought I'd already made it because I could say that I am an actor. But you do have to put in those hours in order to have some level of a process. Because here's what I think. Whenever I do a job, this is my thing with actors. It's a little bit of my pet peeve.

A little bit, is this. If you have a criticism for a writer, you never have it for another actor.

You don't criticize them. That's like a no-no. Okay? I don't care if it's a day player. You don't tell anyone how to act. That's the director's job. But if you have a criticism of the work, if you say, "You know, this scene is not working," you have to tell them why.

And you have to know how to fix it.

I will say, once again, I'm a negotiating— I would say 98% of the time, people don't know how to fix it.

Yeah. That's such a great point because I've often said that actors should spend a day being a writer getting notes from actors. Absolutely. Because the way that people give writers feedback is often appalling. It's like, "This isn't—" And not just actors, anybody. But the way writers receive feedback is dismissive, it's insulting. They don't have a fix. To your point, something they've worked really, really hard on, they hand it over, and people just kind of open it up and barely pay attention to it. They barely read it. They don't know the words. They're challenging stuff before it's even tried out. And then conversely, I always say to writers, "Put on someone else's clothes." That's right. "Go over there and scramble an egg while you remember two pages of dialog while everyone you know is on the other side of the room drinking coffee looking at you." And then we're even. Yeah, absolutely.

Whenever you have to fix a script, sometimes it's really not that deep to fix something. It could be a simple choice. But what happens is the filter that goes through is, "Okay, is it gonna get more viewers? Are people gonna wanna see it? Is it gonna turn on the 18 to 34-year-old boys who come see the movie?" That's a big one, Amy. Oh, yeah.

I mean— The Boys. The Boys.

And also, "Will men care about this project?" And it's like—

Yeah, that was The Woman King. Oh, yeah.

I bet there was a lot of discussion about, like, "We wanna make sure our men show up." And it's like, do we? Do we want to make sure men show up? Like, these days— Me too. I've been like, "Maybe they don't come to this one." How about we just make one for us? Just one.

I'm playing a Goji warrior. I've just chopped off 5 men's heads in the first 2 minutes, and maybe it's just not for them. I mean, it's like a lot of the notes were, you know, "Less dirt and more lipstick." "Are you freaking kidding me?" Wild.

"Are you kidding me?" Wild. "I'm playing an Agojie warrior, and I'm thinking about lipstick? And eyelash extensions?" That film, you are so badass in that film.

That film is so beautiful. I loved it. You and your husband produced it together, generated it, made it for yourself. Such an example of, like, taking the currency that you had and using it and making that project. And the thing I wanted to ask you about Woman King, The Woman King, is— and for people that don't know, it's based on a real story, for people that don't know about a— Could you explain what it was based on?

It's based on the Agojie tribe of warriors in Dahomey, in Benin, West Africa, in like 1854. And they were all female army units. Unit that would go out and fight neighboring tribes and, you know, Yoruba tribes. Now, you know, the controversy is— there was a lot of controversy, you know, involved with the Agojie Warriors because they would have slaves. Okay? I think ultimately, that is what maybe people had problems with. And the other problem is, you know, it was an all-Black cast, mostly female cast. Mostly without getting into it, because there will never be enough time in the world, dark-skinned females who have muscles and who are taking men down. I mean, I trained for 5 hours a day, and I was the oldest motherfreaking warrior in the movie. So we trained 5 hours a day for months, hand-to-hand combat.

I have to tell you though, with that movie, with Without getting too much into it, because there's a lot about that movie that was, like, very important to me. I didn't think it was a big deal for women to be warriors. I didn't think that it was a big deal to have a title like the Woman King.

Because first of all, there's a lot of kings who are women in Africa.

They're actually called kings. I didn't know that that was going to be a controversy until we did it. I thought, this is badass.

I mean, I would take my toy machete home to practice with my husband. I mean, not around my husband because he would say, oh, this is a lot.

But, but, but I just didn't know it was a big deal until we started shooting it. And there was It was, you know, "Can we make your curls looser and more pretty?" "Could we do eyelash extensions?" "Maybe a different title?" You know, this whole sort of watering down of what it means to be—

Yeah, this idea of, like, just don't forget to stay soft. Yeah. Like, while you're the hardest warrior ever, don't forget to be a little bit cute and soft because God forbid you just step into your full power Absolutely.

And God forbid that you don't turn me on.

That's right. That you don't look sexy. That's right.

And, you know, it sort of leads into the whole thing of the value of beauty.

You know, that's right.

I mean, I'm definitely like, at 60 years old, I feel fabulous because I am one of those women. I got that done and over with very, very early in You know, I feel for the beautiful women who were younger and now they're older and they walk in the room and no one's looking at them.

Yeah.

That's tough when beauty— your beauty is your number one currency. Yeah. Exactly. 'Cause it goes away fast. Exactly. It's really fickle. Yeah. And, but I will say, and you spoke about this when you were doing The Woman King, like the way in which you created this new relationship to your body. Mm-hmm. In your 50s. I think a lot of women, I know a lot of women, I know I speak for myself, you start to really take, you really kind of look and you say, okay, this is my one body. I really— I really, you know, the ways in which I got to kind of put it on the back burner in my 20s and 30s, I really have to pay attention to it now. And I've joked on here, like, we gotta eat 85 grams of protein and we have to lift weights and whatever. But you did that. What did you learn about yourself when you were training 5 hours a day?

You know what, Amy, it was the first time I could walk into a room with that, And it was a leather sort of shirt I had on, armor that I had on. And so my stomach was exposed.

It was the first time I can walk on the field and in a room and totally be in my body.

You know, there is something about the female body, what you're sort of conditioned to believe about it, that it's got to be beautiful, right?

Yeah. So it's got to be thin and beautiful. And the why and the how it has to be beautiful is always tied to male desirability.

That's right.

It's never tied to being capable.

It's tied to a shrinking. Yeah, exactly.

Shrinking and not being capable, not being strong, not being, you know, it's never ours. Yeah.

And so even in the practicing I was going to lie a little bit. I was going to lie a little bit.

I hope it was a little tiring. Like, I hope you were negotiating. This is what the lie was.

Okay.

This is what the lie was, Amy. Cue music for negotiating. Cue, you know, Hit 'Em Up by Tupac. I was going to say, you know, if you know, just to In the practicing, 'cause we would do an hour of weightlifting, 30 minutes of running on the treadmill at 10.0. Oh, no!

I've done 10.0. That is a disaster. And it wasn't the best. Wait, 30 minutes straight of 10.0? Like, was it sprints? Sprints. Goddamn it.

And then 3.5 hours. I mean, by the end, I mean, and you saw all these young girls, they'd have a little sweat on their bodies. I would sweat out 3, 4 shirts a day. So I would go to choreo for 3.5 hours, and you're taking off taken down 8, 7 dudes at the same time. Okay. 8, 7 dudes.

What I was gonna say is, you know, it was, it was so great because then I could really tap into the part of me that I never tapped into before.

That's bullshit. I was always that girl that wanted to kick someone's ass. Yeah. And probably did a couple of times, but it gave me permission to do it.

Yes. And I mean, there was one guy I had a huge 6'4", 260. I mean, come on. [Speaker:KARA] That's exciting. [Speaker:SHANNON] And to make— And I felt like I could do it. [Speaker:KARA] Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:42

Now, whether I could do it or not in real life, who knows? But the feeling like I could.

00:49:47

You have stood toe to toe with such amazing actors. Denzel. You talked about Meryl. You worked with Chadwick. When you're in that zone with people that good, and you're— Like, what is it? I guess I'm asking you, like, what's it like to be in that zone? In the World Series. Yes, exactly.

And not pissing your pants. Um, well, with Meryl, that was it. Yeah.

I mean, she's the best. She's so great.

And she's funny. And funny. And cool. And cool. It's like—

Meryl. Meryl.

It's like you could be that great and that cool.

Well, you're like that too.

That's why you guys are so good, 'cause you're so good that you don't have to be assholes because you know how good you are.

And you know those assholes out there.

Yes, because they're not that good. Or I should say they're not being led by insecurity. So, you and Meryl meet, of course you guys are friends and respect each other 'cause you're both so good.

But I followed her everywhere. On set? On set.

I mean, to the point where it was like— You know when you say to yourself, "Okay, tomorrow I'm not gonna do that because I don't think it made her— It didn't make her feel comfortable." 'Cause at one point, she would never admit this. She probably doesn't remember this. I don't remember it, but she was going to set, and I was trying to keep her from going to set because I was too excited.

So I was like, "So, how's it going?" She was like, "Oh, good.

So I'll see you later." She was going up the stairs. And then I was like, "So, it's going good, right? So, the day was really good?" And you could— You know when someone's trying to do something and you're stopping them from doing it, and they don't feel like— They don't want to be rude to you by going, "Shut the fuck up. I got to get to set." So she was being really nice. And I said, "Okay, so I'll see you later, right? So I work next week?" So I work next week, and, you know, she was like, "Yeah, yeah." So that was the first day. And then I was like, "I'm not gonna do that tomorrow.

So I'm not gonna do that tomorrow." I went back tomorrow. And we're set. We're sitting there.

And then I'm staring at her. And I'm really shy. She's not that shy. She's sort of shy, but not that shy. Shy. So then I don't—

because I'm not good with small talk.

And I go— longest pause.

And then I said, "Um, can I get you some tea?" And she said— she said, "No, baby. No, you don't have to get me any tea." And I was like, "Oh, okay." So I couldn't think of anything else. I kept staring, staring, staring.

And you could tell, you know, when you stare, you could tell she was really trying to be gracious. And the only thing I could come up with was like, "You got beautiful skin." I know.

I actually said that to Meryl Streep. I love you.

And then finally, my husband, who was like, "V, did you tell that woman that you love her work?

You didn't tell that woman you love her work?" I said, "Well, Julius, I didn't." I just— she said, "When I get to that damn set, I'm gonna tell her that I love her work, and I'm gonna tell her that she is your favorite actress." I said, "Don't say that!" And Julius finally came to the set, and he said, "Viola loves you so much, and you are so beautiful, Meryl. You are such a wonderful actress." She blushed.

She was like, "Oh, Julius!" Well, I have met Julius, and Julius is something else. I mean, do you find— I mean, I know I, I find that sometimes in my life people want me to be funny and they're a little disappointed when I'm not quite bringing it. Do you feel conversely that sometimes people assume that you're gonna like exchange in something very deep and serious with them and you just want to laugh all the time? Because I feel like what I'm learning about you is that you're— you love, you love to joke around and Oh.

But, I mean, I can't really even joke around like I want, because I'm dirty with it.

Fantastic.

Why can't you talk? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't want to go down like that, Amy. No, you don't want to go down. I'm dirty with it.

Who did you love growing? Like, who were your.

Oh, the first one. Who'd you love? Mom's Mabel. Oh, yeah. And she was dirty, Dirty, so Dirty Album over and over again.

Flip Wilson. Yes. And over again. Red Fox. Red Fox. Over and over again. So dirty.

The dirtier the better.

Yeah. We can't go there. Yeah.

So funny. Yeah. Yeah. So you would play those records when you were— Oh, I would. Yeah.

And you know why too?

Because they told stories. And come on, the original dirty of the dirtiest of the funniest funniest is Richard Pryor. Whenever I feel down, I play that live in concert over and over and over again. Oh my God, that's just the best. And he talks about his kids, one part where he talks about his kids and how he doesn't know how to swim, and every time he gets into the pool, he's drowning. He's basically drowning, and his kids are like, "Ah, Daddy! You're so funny!" And he's like, "You motherfuckers, I'm drowning!" You know? It's like, I love that.

You know? Yeah. Okay. Now, I wanna get to your book before we finish, because, you know, your relationship to writing is an interesting one to me. I mean, I'm sure you have, you know, we talked about it earlier, this idea of like when you're acting and you're writing and you're working with writers and what that kind of writing looks like. And then there's the different kind of version of writing when you're writing a book, when you're writing fiction. And when you're writing a memoir, which your memoir was a huge hit, you won the Grammy. That was your EGOT, was your— when you did the recording of it, when you read your book on tape. And that book came out a while ago. And I'm curious, you know, when we write about our stories and then they go out into the world and everybody gets to kind of read them and process them, have you ever heard from anyone Anyone from your past after that book came out?

I hear from various ones all the time. My fourth grade teacher in fourth grade, I have the story in my book that was— and I actually went back to my fourth grade class to the actual classroom. But my fourth grade, that was almost the height of my dysfunction, my dysfunctional life. But in the book, um, It still has a lot of shame for me.

I would go to school, I would smell so bad.

I mean, there are no words for it. Okay. And this teacher that I had that I loved, I loved her, Mrs.

Cody. She sent pictures to my sister, who's a school—

she was a schoolteacher in Central Falls.

She sent all these pictures that she had saved of me. Wow. I have no pictures of my childhood. She saved these pictures, and she saved some of my writings. Wow. And in one of the pictures, I was at a museum looking at this sculpture.

And all the kids were behind me who were in my class.

But I was looking at the sculpture, and my mouth was gapped open in awe. And I thought to myself, you captured something in me that I didn't know I had in me. Was already that when something was beautiful, when something was created that had— that I would have no connection to otherwise, I saw it? That was in one of the pictures. And she told my sister that she never forgot me as a student. Student. And she was the one who actually told me that I needed to go to the nurse one day because I smelled so bad that my mom had to get some soap and hot water. And you need to wash yourself because the odor is too much. She was a teacher who told me that. And I loved her. That's why it hurt so bad. Yeah. See, once again, the paradox, right?

Yeah. She's looking out for you, but feeling shamed.

She's the one who felt shamed me.

She didn't really shame me.

Do you know what I'm saying?

But that was a big one. I mean, it feels like writing has been something that's been a big thing that you've wanted to do for a long time. And then you write— You've now co-written a book with James Patterson. It's on my shelf. It's right here. Judge Stone. Judge Stone. Book is out. Yep. What is it about?

It is about a 13-year-old girl a girl named Nova who has an abortion, who gets raped and has an abortion in Union Springs, Alabama. Alabama has the strictest abortion laws, and the doctor who performs the abortion is now on trial for murder. So it is definitely To Kill a Mockingbird. It is just— it's pulsating. It's all of those things. But, you know, even like To Kill a Mockingbird, which, you know, the courtroom was pulsating, you know, Tom Robinson, Mayella Ewell. It was just heart-stopping, right?

But the characters within it were just as memorable as the trial.

That's what I feel about, you know, Judge Stone. And James Patterson is like—

00:59:30

Viola, you can do anything.

No, I can't.

I can't, you know, tell us what you can't do.

Oh, I can't bake. Okay.

You know, you could probably learn. I have a 15-year-old at home. It's like, it's just me and you. You're probably out of the teen years.

No, I'm right in the middle of it. I got a 15 and a 17.

I'll have a 15-year-old.

Yeah. There's no easier way to feel uncool than when your kid, your teen kid looks at you I'm like, what?

I'm not cool.

No, but you're not supposed to be cool to your kid. If you're cool to your kid, that's weird.

I know. I think so. It's like, I'm not cool.

Nobody wants to be the parent that like hangs with their kids and like their kids are like, wow, your mom is so cool.

Yeah, I don't want to go to an escape room. No, you don't have to.

You don't have to. I tried to.

That's why I jumped out of a plane. I tell people I jumped out of a plane. What? Oahu, Hawaii. I jumped out of a plane to be cool for my daughter. I did, Amy.

What year was this? Just recently?

I was 57, 56, 56, 57. So I'm 60 now. Yeah. What did you think of jump?

What was it like? Did you— was it awful? Seems awful. It seems— it truly seems like awful.

Have you ever jumped?

So obviously, I'm not jumping out of a plane.

I jumped out of a plane because we had the most awesome nanny. When I say awesome, it's like everyone else's great nanny, and ours was like God. Okay.

She jumped out of the plane.

You know, you're, you're jumping in tandem with someone who's talking like—

I was gonna say, you're jumping in tandem with someone you met like yesterday.

Yesterday.

And he was like, so, you know, you're a great actress. So, "What do you like better, theater or film?" And I want to say, "Shut the fuck up!" You're like, "Focus, Zack.

My favorite movie is The Parachute Working." "And look at that yummy mommy volcano right there, and that erupted in my—" I don't fucking want to care about the volcano. And then they roll the curtain up and they say, "Okay, so let's go." That's cool.

I mean, Viola, that's badass that you did that.

I will never do it again. Although, although it was fun. It was a terrific experience. I told my daughter as I was falling down, because she said, Mama, if you die, can I have your wigs and your money? So I'm falling down. So I'm falling down. I'm falling down. And I told her, don't listen to Mama. Don't listen to me. I think every cuss word that I could possibly imagine. I mean, it was coming out of my mouth. You have But I did it because of Molly. You did it. You did it because of Molly.

And you and Julius, we talked about your husband a little bit. You guys have, like, when you do stuff together and you talk publicly together, you laugh a lot. You laugh a lot. And you laugh. Amy, you have fun. I mean, look, your relationship is very aspirational, and I don't want to project upon it because I know everyone's relationship is their own private thing. You know, a relationship is like a country with its own set of rules, and you don't really know it unless you live there. But what it seems like is you have the best relationship ever, and you have a wonderful marriage and beautiful, loving partner.

It's fantastic. He drives me crazy. I drive him crazy. I want to hit him, but then I— The love of my life.

You know, he's just the love of my life. And when I say laugh—

No, Amy. I mean, just— He is a character. And every time he comes up in public, you know, he puts the Brave mask and everything on. But the guy is absolutely hysterical.

I mean, and does the oddest things that, for me, there's a little bit of me that says, "Is he crazy?" He could be crazy. I mean, he lost his son.

He couldn't find his saltine crackers one day. Ooh, that's interesting. Saltine damn crackers. Yeah. And he was convinced that someone broke into our house, was living in our attic, and had stolen his saltine crackers.

And so I was like, why are you walking around the house with a baseball bat?

Me? There's someone— I can't find my saltine crackers, B. I said, well, did you look in the cabinet behind the tuna fish? Yeah, and they ain't there. There was 4 packages, V. Now there's only 3 packages left. V, there's someone in that attic. And here's for me what for me is about love.

I was like, oh my God, I— he's crazy. There's someone living in the attic.

And what did I do? I grabbed my baseball bat too, and we looked for the person together in the attic until I finally found the saltine crackers near the tuna fish.

And it's just like, I love it. I do. I do. I mean, your love is very, very special.

And then talking about his mom and just the stories.

He's another one that could tell stories.

Well, we talked to him before your interview, and I want you to know he's the only spouse we've talked to in the— You know, we do a thing where we kind of talk well behind somebody's back before they come in, and I get a question to ask our guest. And Julius was the only spouse we wanted to talk to because we were like, first of all, they seem like they really like each other. But he spoke so beautifully, of course, about you, Viola, but he also speaks to a bigger idea of what women, a lot of women, yearn for and hope for, which is that somebody really sees them. Like, somebody sees them in real time and celebrates their wins. Oh, yeah. Oh, he does. He does. And you seem like you do that for each other.

Oh, yeah. Totally.

And again, a simple thing to say, but sometimes hard to find. Like that— Do you think that is the secret to why you have been together so long, is the way you do that for each other?

You know, by the time I met Julius, I absolutely understood what love is. You know, first of all, I thought he was cute. You know, I thought he had a tight ass. I'm not gonna lie to you, Amy.

Yeah, don't. Yeah, he had a tight ass.

He was a football player.

So cute. You guys are actors on a set. He was handing you blood. You were in a hot nurse's outfit. Yeah. And I was like, he's really cute.

And I was really lonely. And, um, so that was it, of course. I mean, I just— with him, it was— and I prayed for a football player type dude, you know? And it was him. Yeah.

And, um, But you know what got me with him is he told me his story. Because he's a talker.

But he told me his whole story from the get-go. Cool. Everything. Good and bad. Straight node chaser. You know, he raised his kids on his own. He's been married, you know, all of those things. It just—

and for me, it opened me up. He's just a dude. He's been wired right. He, he has—

well, he has 3 really weird questions for me to ask you. I know he's great in every way, but I don't understand these questions. Julius. Julius. One of them is, tell— ask her about Zuni. Who is Zuni? And can I Google it? Because Julius was talking about a TV show that he grew up with I've never heard heard of?

Power XL 5. What? Oh no, Amy. Zuni. Amy, it's a cartoon with puppets that he watched when he was a kid. Wow. Do you see Zuni?

Hold on. Z-U-N-I. Okay, you see Zuni now with the giant head? Yeah, you see?

Let's see, let's see, let's see. And you did— you pressed in the images of it. Let's see.

Yeah, let me see where's Zuni. Okay, Zuni. Z-O-O-N-I-E. That's why I'm a classic spelling something wrong. For your listeners, Zuni looks like—

who's Zuni look— no, I'm gonna tell you who Zuni look like. We were laying in bed and Julia said, V, you know who you look like?

Was it as soon as I met you?

I was like, she make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

She remind me of somebody I know.

And then I thought about it. Zuni. You look like Zuni. That's who you are, B. Zuni. And that's the— this is the show that he would watch every Saturday. He was the only one in this family who wanted to watch it.

I can't believe the show— it looks like it's dolls and puppets.

Dolls and puppets. And he was the only one who wanted to watch it. None of his brothers and sisters wanted to watch it.

They say, Ma, uh, Julius, he wanna watch—

we don't wanna watch Zuni.

And his mom would say, say, let that, let that damn boy watch his Zuni.

That's all you talk about, Lee Lee, is Zuni, Zuni, Zuni. Damn Zuni, watch that damn Zuni and get your ass out of the house after you watch that Zuni. So Zuni, I remind him of Zuni. Big lips and big eyes.

It's like almost like a little ferret meets a sloth meets a—

Amy, no, Amy, it's cute though. No, Zuni is messed up. I call him Ferdinand because He looks exactly like Ferdinand. Ferdinand the Bull? Yeah, we named people. He looked just like Ferdinand.

Okay, the other question he wanted me to ask you is, ask her about Shadow of a Gunman. Julius. He's setting you up for some stories.

Oh, he's setting me up. It was one of our first dates. He said, V, you wanna come? If you know him, you would know that this is a great imitation of Julius. B, one of my friends is doing Shadow of a Gunman.

You know that play?

You know that Irish play? Sean O'Casey, Shadow of a Gunman, in some small theater off Abbott Kinney Boulevard in Santa Monica. So we go to see Shadow of a Gunman, and I'm walking in going, oh, we're gonna go see some theater. And so we go to this theater, we walk in, and I'm like, okay, let's sit in the front. 99 seats. No, no one's at the theater.

So I said, let's, let's sit in the front.

He was like, "Uh-uh, we ain't sitting in the damn front. Let's sit all the way in the back. Let's sit up there in the back." I was like, "But Julius, we're all the way in the back." He said, "V, let's sit up in the back." We sit up in the back. He's got the chair near the wall. As soon as the curtains go up, he's dead asleep. The only reason why he wanted to sit in the wall is to take a nap all throughout the play. And the only time he woke up is when he thought some sex scene was gonna happen. He woke up for 2 seconds thinking he was gonna see some good— goodimus, as we call it, and nothing happened. It was the worst production in the world. And oh my God. And then afterwards, he went up to his friend and he said, "I loved that performance.

You were fantastic. And you know when you did that thing?

That thing you did." I was like, "Julius, you slept through that whole damn performance." Well, are you guys watching, listening?

Are you— what's making you laugh these days? Where do you get your comedy? In bed. Yes, with each other. With each other, it sounds like.

Oh my God, with his imitations. I mean, no, Amy, like, I mean, just absolutely hysterical.

Yeah. I'm telling you.

It's so fun to hear. How you guys like to play. Oh, yeah. Like, it's like, it really feels like there's like young versions of you, like healed young versions of you together.

This morning, we were just talking. When I first—

when we first got together, and they wanted me to do the play that I won my first Tony Award for, King Hedley.

But I remember when I was offered the role, and I said, I don't know if that role is good enough for me, Julius.

First of all, can I just tell you, I never talk like this. So the fact that I remember talking like this shows you that I'm full of shit. So I said, "Julius, that role is not good enough for me." And he's sitting in the living room. He's just listening to me. He just got out of the shower. I said, "This role is not good enough for me. And, you know, they think I'm gonna go to New York, and they think I'm gonna do A, B, and C, and they think I'm gonna do that role. I need the lead role. I need to get the lead role." And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's listening, listening, listening. And then there's a pause. And I said, "So, what do you think, Julius?" He said, "This what I think, V. You need to take your ass to New York, and you need to do that damn play. Because here's the thing, you ain't got no damn job. And we ain't— And we not bringing in any damn money. So you need to go on and take your ass to New York and do that play." And we talk about that all the time.

You know, those moments of when I told him for the first time that I had the most horrific credit card debt Yeah.

And I was about to cry. I said my credit score was 500. And I kept that as a secret because he was so organized and together and responsible, you know?

And I said, "Julius, I have to tell you something." He said, "Okay, B, go ahead. Tell me." I said, "Julius, I have bad credit." And he said, "I knew your Black ass had bad credit from the moment I met you. I could tell by the way you dressed and everything. You were all over the damn place. That's OK. I know you starting to cry. Come over here. We use my credit. Don't worry about it. I knew your Black ass had bad credit." And that was it. Like moments like that of levity. Yes, levity.

Levity of— Safety. Safety, of connection.

Yes.

You know, the freedom that I had to tell him I had bad credit, but also how he helped me build from there. Yeah. That's the thing.

Yeah. That was my big thing.

I finally found it. Someone who makes your life better.

Mm. That's love. I think so. Yeah. That's what a healthy relationship looks like. And a tight ass. And a tight— To end our convo today, what's the best thing about being in your 60s? It's the next decade up for me. And I mean, I've been loving my 50s more than my 40s and more and more and more. What, what, what's— what are you loving about your 60s?

In your 60s, your life is yours. That's the best part of it. Your life is yours.

You realize that, you know, it's, it's a quote that it's, it's been running through my mind is— I know it's sort of morbid, but on your last day on Earth, the definition of hell is your last day on Earth, who you became meets the person you could have become.

I feel that that's '60s, man. The '60s is I'm gonna become that woman. Because all that bullshit that I was told in the past that, you know, I had to make a certain amount of money, or to be smart enough, or pretty enough, or thin enough, or whatever. None of that shit means shit. Yeah. My life right now is about who I love, who loves me, and what I leave behind. That's it. It is clean.

And it's given me a certain level of bravery too.

Now, if I could put some hormones in there, that would be beautiful. That's amazing.

It makes me really look forward to what's ahead.

Yeah, well, yeah, it's the other stuff too.

But we won't talk. We don't talk about that. Let's say we will just— we'll get— we'll deal with that when it comes. Viola Davis, I— it means so much that you did this. Thank you. I mean, I mean, thank you for being here today and for talking to me and for doing the show. It's— I just absolutely adore you and your work.

Well, I love you too.

And I'd love to move in with you and your husband. It won't be weird. I'll just be a roommate.

But don't go into the attic and don't eat the saltine crackers. I'm sorry. I'm just kidding. Because you may get the baseball bat on your head. Don't steal the crackers.

I'm sorry I live in your attic, and I'm sorry I steal your husband's saltines, but I get hungry up there. But I want to listen to the two of you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming.

It really means a lot.

Thank you, Amy. Thank you so much, Viola. You're incredible and so good at what you do, and it was so wonderful to talk to you. Thank you for stopping by for this polar plunge. One person we didn't get a chance to talk to Viola about that I know she highly reveres and was deeply influenced by was the actor actress Cicely Tyson. And so, I just wanted to say her name here because I know Viola has spoken about her and got to work with her on many projects, including in How to Get Away with Murder. But do yourself a favor, and if you haven't seen Cicely Tyson's work, it spans an incredible amount of time in American history. She lived to '96, and many of us got to know her when she, played Kunta Kinte's mother in Roots. But Cicely, at that point, had been working on the stage for a very long time, and she's just been in an incredible wide variety of television and movies and is a really terrific actress and was one of our Hollywood legends. So, check her stuff out, I guess. Plunge into Cicely Tyson and her work, and Viola Davis, We love you.

We can't wait to see what you're doing next. So thanks so much for joining us, and see you soon. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paperkite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullin, and Alea Xeneres. For Paperkite, production is by Produktion by Sam Green, Joel Lovell und Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original Music by Amy Miles.

Aber was ich noch erzählen wollte: Meine Nichte kämpft sich ja ganz schön durchs Studium. Semesterbeitrag, Laptop, Bücher, Software, Handy, Internet.

Ey, so ein Master ist echt teuer. Ach, sag ihr, sie kann sich das zurückholen.

Ja, du meinst von der Steuer absetzen, ne?

Aber sie verdient ja nicht.

Egal! Zauberwort: Verlustvortrag. Macht sie ganz einfach mit WISO Steuerberatung. Steuerst. Und wenn sie dann arbeitet, heißt es Katsching! Das geht? Safe! Wieso Steuer? Hol dir dein Geld zurück! Jetzt kostenlos ausprobieren!