Transcript of How Shawn Nelson Built a $Billion Brand in 27 Years

What I found is that while we're tempted to quit quite often and we're beat down by the world, by all kinds of things, blindsided, let down by people who knows what, when we start to really think about it and do the math, unless we are certain that this is an exit and needs to be quitted, tie goes to the runner. So here I am, 27 years in, after a thousand different tough parts with no moment compelling enough to actually make it clear that I should I quit. By not quitting, I get to run a company that's worth billion dollars and provides jobs to thousands of people and has an opportunity to build a brand that can be here for 100 years. That honestly came from just not taking one of those escape patches. There's great power in fortitude, stamina, tenacity, all those things.

John, it's great to have you on the show, man. Thanks for taking the time.

Great to be here.

So, dude, can you give me the Tencent tour real quick on you getting to your business, your career to where we are today? There are a lot of things that I want to talk to you about, about what's going on with your business, with the economy, with the space, what you're dealing with, decisions you have to make. But catch us up real quick on your journey.

Yeah, look, love, Zack. I'm 27 years into a company that I started when I was in college as a side hustle to be funny, making giant bean bags for people who liked it. And that's evolved into now mostly a couch business. You've probably seen our famous couches on TV or online. You can arrange and rearrange them infinitely and add to them forever. And that makes them the most sustainable solution in all of furniture. Because the one I'm sitting on, in fact, is 18 years old. Made it with brand new pieces, made it with new things that didn't exist until just this last year. Because that's our design Designed for Life philosophy and action at Lovesack. We have 300 stores now. I opened a store right out of college and it's grown into this business that's publicly traded on Nasdaq at about 700 million in sales and continues to grow and expand So 27 years ago, you decide to create bean bags.

Now, a lot of people, when they think college entrepreneur, they immediately go to Silicon Valley, right? You decided to go retail product. Where did that entrepreneurial spirit come from in general? And then why bean bags outside of they're comfortable and a lot of people sit on them in college?

Yeah. I mean, so I don't even think of it as an entrepreneurial spirit. I think of it as my impulsive self having a dumb idea while watching the prices, 10 days out of high school. How funny would it be to make a bean bag this big? Me to the TV, the whole floor, and I turned off the TV, drove down to Joanne's Fabrics, bought some vinyl, pleather, brought it back home because that's what you make bean bags out of. Cut it out like figure eight, sewed it up, jammed my mom's sewing machine. My neighbor finished it for me, put a zipper in it. I started stuffing it with bean bag beads from Michael's. Couldn't even possibly buy enough. So cut up everything soft I could find in my home, blankets, packing peanuts. But it was the foam mattresses, like camping mattresses with a bungy cord around them in the basement that you take camping. I cut those up on a paper cutter in the basement. And that made this thing really squishy, like a giant pillow that would just eat you when you jump on it. So everywhere I took this thing, Three weeks later, when I had it stuffed, everyone loved it and wanted one.

I actually put off making them for three years until my neighbor finally just kept bugging me. If I'm going to make you one, I'm going to sell it to you. If I'm going to sell it to you, I need a business, I need a name. Love, peace, hate, war, hippie, bean bag, love, bag, love, sack. That's cool. Paid 25 bucks at the Utah State Tax Commission to start a little business. And it was my side hustle in college. I call it my side hustle because I was paying my way through school as a waiter This business never made any money. Like any new business, it just ate my money. The shredder would break, have to fix it. The van would break, have to fix it, need more fabric. And so by the end of school, I wanted out. We gave it one shot, got discovered at a trade show, took a big order, built a factory. Eventually, no retail stores would have us. So to keep the factory going, we opened our own store. And now, fast forward to today, we have 300, 2000 employees. And we make all kinds of stuff. We still make sacs, but we've branched into other things that have gotten bigger.

How did you know how to do that? I've had a lot of ideas, and usually it stops at, well, I have no idea how to do that thing, so I'm not going to pursue that. But did you know how to sew? Were you in that space? Or this was just the challenge in front of me, and I'm going to go figure it out?

I knew how to sew from my seventh grade Homeet class. I made some slippers and some shorts or something. So I wrote this book, Let Me Save You 25 Years. I have a podcast as well, Let Me Save You 25 Years, where I talk to successful people about each episode is a little different. I talk to them about Shanaism. So I talk to them about these little lessons I've learned along the way, and we go right in on that versus a typical interview. And I mentioned that because the first Shanaism in my book, and there's 25 of them in the book, is just do something. So I love what you said. We all have these ideas. Everyone does. I think everyone is an entrepreneur at heart to a degree. We're all creative people. People are creative. We're made in the image of God, the great creator. We are creative. And the difference, I think, between any entrepreneur, as it were, and entrepreneur is the doing. Look, I got off the couch, I bought some fabric. I couldn't sew it up, actually. I had to get my neighbor to finish it for me. You know what I mean?

So first, Seanism, just do anything, do something. Second, Shonism, just do the next thing. As an example, For example, in the book, once I could afford any help, I hired a kid part-time to shred foam and stuff sacks for me while I waited tables for real money, whatever. And he quickly cut the end of his finger off with a knife because we had to use a knife to cut up this foam. And went to the hospital, got it stitched up, and I quickly got a call from the Utah State, OSHA, whatever, and I discovered a thing called workers comp insurance. I didn't know anything about workers comp insurance, but I learned pretty quick. And it wasn't the end of the world. I had to pay a fine, whatever. Look, today, I am the CEO of a public company. I've been a CEO on Nasdaq for seven, eight years. I've learned a lot doing that. A lot. The first stock I ever owned was my stock. Really? Outside of a 401k. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And now I I meet with Wall Street analysts and investors last week, and I was with Larry Fink. And I'm only saying that because you can do anything and go anywhere if you're willing to take the risk and do things and just keep doing the next thing. And it actually will work out just fine.

So in that vein, I see a lot of people talk about the sacrifice sacrifice that it takes to be successful. All of our sacrifices are different. What we choose to sacrifice, what we're willing to sacrifice for success or for the thing that we want. I don't necessarily need to know what your sacrifices are, but a lot of people are unwilling to make that trade-off. How did you get past, or did you even have the fear of those sacrifices? Looking at it going, I can't do X. I'm assuming if you're building Love Sack on the side as your side quest and your waiting tables, and you're also in school. There are things that you couldn't do that others who didn't have a job waiting tables and a side quest that they got to do. And you made that trade-off, obviously. You're sitting here today. How did you get past those trade-offs? How did you do that value calculation in your head? How were you able to say, I'm willing to play this long game for this thing that has zero guarantees? I know you said at a certain point, you were at that do or die moment, But most people give up before that moment, even.

They start to hit a point and they go, All my friends are going out this Saturday. I deserve it. I'm going to go out. Or, All my friends, they watch this show on Tuesday nights. I'll just take tonight off, even though I have this thing I'm working on, and I'm just going to watch that show and have a glass of wine or whatever. But you were able to push through a lot of that. I'm sure not perfect, but you obviously were. How do you deal with that cost-benefit analysis of the sacrifices you have to make versus getting what you actually want out of life?

It's a great question. I share some of these moments in my book. The subtitle for the book is Mistakes, Mistakes, weeks, miracles and Lessons from the Love, Sex, Story. And I share a few of these moments where I did give up. In fact, I think I have probably quit in my mind or thought about quitting a thousand times, in including probably last week. When I say that, because we would be foolish not to pay attention to our life, to the landscape, to the world, to our finances, and be trying to make the best decisions for ourselves. But I think one of the best pieces of advice I can give anyone is when it comes to quitting, let's just go there broadly, the tie should always go to the runner. So We weigh these things, and there's no way to really do the math because things are just not equal. The math on taking that off because I deserve this, obviously, self-care matters, and we got to keep ourselves in good spirits so that we can go back and do the work the next... But there's no real math on There's only good judgment, and there's only judgment in the moment, and sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we get it wrong.

But that's why you're paid the big bucks, is because you can exercise judgment. Moment to moment, minute to minute, strategy to strategy, year to year, decade to decade. So what I found is that while we're tempted to quit quite often, and we're beat down by the world by all kinds of things, blindsided, let down by people who knows what, when we start to really think about it and do the math, unless we are certain that this is an exit and needs to be quitted, tie goes to the runner. So here I am, 27 years in after a thousand different tough parts with no moment compelling enough to actually make it clear that I should quit. And by not quitting, I get to run a company that's sometimes worth a billion dollars and probably will be in the right markets and provides jobs to thousands of people and has an opportunity, I think, to build a Nike, a brand that can be here for a hundred from. And that honestly came from just not taking one of those escape patches. And so I think there's great power in, as they say, fortitude, stamina, tenacity, all those things.

Did Do you contribute that to operating through some higher goal or higher power or higher calling that was able to take you away from, I think, the innate selfishness that we have or Self orientation, which allows us to listen to the excuses, right? To start as one of my favorite, Kobe Bryant, we'll call it sayings, because I don't know the quote exactly was around, he never negotiates with himself. How were you able to show up at 3: 00 AM and put an extra workout in every day when all your teammates were rolling in practice at 10: 00 AM, you'd already gotten a full workout in. How are you able to do that? And he was like, I made a commitment to myself. I just wouldn't negotiate. And he had some higher callings. Did you have a higher purpose for the company or something that kept you going through those moments? Or was it just innate self-reflection, awareness, and discipline that allowed you to get through it?

Listen, I'm no Kobe Bryant, but I think I've had different motivating factors at different times, and they overlap. In the earliest days of Love Sack, it was just survival. In fact, I talk about this in the book, embrace economic pressure. You get a lot of... This is not financial advice, but I will tell you that as much as I've had to carry debt at different times, almost all the time, whether for myself personally or the company, I maxed out all my credit cards to I built the first factory. I had a big customer place a big order. This is our first order that got us even to build the first real factory we had. I had to basically wire the money that they gave me on deposit to this factory in China to make their order. I had spent the money of one of the biggest retailers in the United States. I could feel the consequence if I didn't deliver. I didn't even know what the consequences probably were, but I knew they would be bad. This economic pressure is like, I have to deliver. I'm buying farm equipment and tractors on an agricultural loan from the United States government so that I could shred enough foam to make that first order because I couldn't afford a half a million dollar German shredding machine.

At 22 years old. So ingenuity took over. And after a few visits to farmland to find these little shredders that we had been using, I asked if he had something bigger. He showed me this haybuster. I then was purchasing a 1970s haygrinder, the size of a house, dragged around by a tractor, powered by a tractor, because that's the way I could afford to make it work. And it worked. And it did work. And it worked for years, actually. This is the type of ingenuity that finds us when we're willing to put our ass on the line, when we are willing to take the risk. And so I've never had a safety net. I don't have a safety net today. In fact, I haven't even taken my chips off the table. Almost all my personal wealth is still in LOVE stock, which, by the way, I'm proud of, our ticker. Yeah, that's cool. And it looked, again, not financial advice. But here I am recruiting people and asking them to leave their careers from the best companies in America to come work for my little company, why should I be liquid and wealthy with a giant pot of cash that they don't have?

And And so I keep my chips on the table. I need LoveSack to work. Our stock is under pressure because the home category sucks right now with housing down and everything else. And I am cool as a cucumber. Why? Because I've got such a good team. And so you've navigated through tough times. And I've lived through every tough time. That's the value. The cool thing, and that's led me to this. You asked me if I had a higher purpose. Yeah. Today at Love Stack, we have a higher purpose. Our stated purpose as a company has evolved to this, we will inspire humankind to buy better stuff, so they buy less stuff. And this The pair that I'm sitting on is the example, right? It's 18 years old. You wouldn't know that. It has brand new... In fact, I just put a new cover on it today. It's on its 10th set of covers, and it can be made with, again, brand new pieces and all these other things. That's our product and action. We We weren't born with that. I made a big bean bag because I thought it was funny. People liked it, but we did make them very well.

It turns out even some of those ones I sold in college are still alive and kicking today. That gave us a point of view on how to do it with couches and shrink them down for shipping, which was really crucial in the early 2000s for the Internet and everything else in our tiny stores. And it's led to this place where we operate some of the most productive retail in retail, forget furniture, and make these cool products that can be with you the rest of your life, and has given us now this purpose that I just told you about, which allows me to employ 2000 people and growing to do it, which, listen, that's a commitment. So it may not be the debt that's driving me anymore, but man, I don't want to let all those people down. We have this beautiful thing that we're doing. It'll lead us. And I think on the back of all of that, we can build a brand that's here for 100 years. And even 27 years in, look, it hurt, but it didn't hurt that bad. I could probably do it again. So that's my point of view. And when you have that point of view, A year that sucks, two, three, four years that suck now since COVID.

Okay, we'll just keep grinding. And we're doing fine. We're profitable. We're making money, all these things. But it's a very hard landscape to operate in. But that's the strength that comes, and it can only come with time and experience.

Yeah, I love that you say that you do it again. I get frustrated when I listen to a podcast or business show and there'll be an entrepreneur or a former entrepreneur, someone who's made it in their career, and they'll ask them the question, Would you do it again? And then it's, Oh, no. If I knew how hard it would be, I wouldn't do it again. Ha, ha, ha. Is there like, Scrooge walking into their billions. And not saying that, inferring in any way that that's what you're doing, but I always find that to be disingenuous because you wouldn't be the person you are today. You wouldn't have the insights that you have. You wouldn't be on this television show or whatever. You wouldn't have the company. You wouldn't have the houses if you didn't go through that. So you're telling me you would trade all of that and not do it again. That's what you're saying? You actually hate where you are. And maybe that's true. Maybe to a certain extent, But I find that to be very disingenuous because I think that they would go through it again, as you said, even despite the pain and the pressure and the frustration and the letdowns.

Because with all those things, with all those valleys come the peaks. You get these peaks, too, where you launch your first couch section, or you come up with... You hit some number in terms of total bean bag sold at the beginning or whatever. You make a list, you launch on the Nasdaq You wouldn't get those peaks if you didn't deal with the valleys. And I find it very disingenuous when that story is, I wouldn't. It was so hard, I wouldn't do it again.

Well, and for me, two things. When I say I'll do it again, I mean It's taking me 27 years to get to the point where I have something big enough to matter and the momentum behind a brand name, which can only come with time, really, to have a shot at building a Nike and Apple out of love sack. And listen, for anyone listening, it probably sounds ridiculous. You'll see. Give me another decade or so. And that's what I mean when I'll do it again. I'll do another 27 if that's what it takes. And sometimes that feels odd because I have so many friends who've built and sold three companies or 10 companies or whatever. And look, that's their story, and it's great. And it's great for them. But my point is, what motivates me has changed. In the beginning, I was just trying to survive. That was motivational. Then I was trying to make a bunch of money. And it's not to say that that's even happened exactly. I haven't exited like that. And I made plenty of money along the way, but I'm not whining about it. My point, though, is that, look, you don't need very much money to just live an awesome life.

None of these crazy things, yachts and private jets, are necessary. Just not even remotely necessary. In fact, a lot of it leads to a lot of angst and hard. I know plenty of billionaires and hundred millionaires. I know them personally. And I think a lot of them, some of them might trade places with me to be on my first wife with kids that I know and love and hang out with and whatever. And so maybe I've come up this. Maybe I could have gotten richer faster. Maybe I could have made better decisions, who knows what. But along the way, I'm now just motivated, not even by the money, but by the chance to build something that really matters, the chance to build something that does get to employ thousands of people inside of a culture that is good. And then that affects to their families. To me, this is highly interesting, highly difficult, and highly motivating. And that's what I've evolved to. But I only get the chance to have this point of view because I stuck it out through periods of time where we had no stated purpose. We had no core values that we lived up.

We were just trying to keep going. And that's okay. That's what I'm trying to articulate. It's like for people out there, you look at businesses like mine that are further along or whatever, you hear these stories or you hear about the entrepreneur that is a billionaire after three years. You'll hear those stories because They're remarkable. Of course, people are going to talk about them. But for every one of those, there's 10,000 others like you or like me who are somewhere on a timeline that looks nothing like that. And it's totally okay because there are plenty, there are thousands of great success stories that all things told may be even more successful than that dude who made a billion dollars overnight. And when I say successful, I mean in the broadest sense of the word. And so all I have is my story, and I'm just trying to articulate this is what keeps me going today, and it's different than what kept me going before.

So one more question on mindset, and then I want to transition to some of the things that are happening today. One of the things that I found with a lot of younger founders coming through, there's a sense that there's only so much pressure they can take. It feels like our skills as a society with dealing with pressure in general are not as strong or not intrinsic to how kids are raised today. I'm not exactly sure. I'm not pretending to be a sociologist, but it feels like when pressure starts to get applied, that whole barrier chest and rise to the challenge mentality isn't necessarily intrinsic in a lot of people. And they start, well, why is this happening to me? I hear it's too much. This shouldn't be this hard, all these different excuses around this idea of pressure. Do you have a mindset, a framework, something you turn to when you're feeling that pressure that allows you to think through what's actually happening on the field so you can continue to make the best decision possible?

Thank you. I have developed, if I were to back up and analyze myself, I have developed a strong capacity for compartmentalization. And it's not perfect. When financial pressure or market pressures or investor pressures, whatever, are at their heaviest, I'm not immune to it. I feel stressed. It can affect my sleep. Not completely. I'll never be kept up all night. But I can feel all of those things. I work really hard when it's time to sleep or when it's time to be with my kids or be on vacation or whatever it may be, to put those things over here and just simply, I will not think about them. I will not be, and I certainly will not be rattled by them. And in the beginning, forget pressures. I was a very volatile, wild-eyed young entrepreneur, so much so that my own team made a joke of it. They made me this T-shirt one time. It's in the book. It was like the international symbol for flammable liquids on my chest. It was my head because I had this spiky hair at the time in place of the flames. It was like, and it said something like combustible or something.

I took it actually as a compliment because this is in the days of Steve Jobs, where it was cool to be a real hard ass and to be super aggressive and whatever. But really, I was just a young little tyrant. And I got my way. And by the way, there's advantages. There are results that can come that can be good from behaving that way to a point. But I talk about this in the book, another Shana's Hum, Stay cool and be kind. And so now when I feel that stress and pressure, because I do feel it, even though I'm able to compartmentalize it, it'll still weigh on me. And I view the chance to walk through the airport and interact with people, have meetings with my own team, and maintain a super cool, level head, unrattled, unfazed demeanor as an awesome challenge. It's like waking up early to go workout. Can I do this for this moment, for this for this week, for this month, for this quarter, for this year of extreme stress and pressure. When you're able to do that, of course, it helps others remain calm and perform well. And it's tricky because you don't want people to mistake your calmness for a lack of urgency because there are urgent things that need to be dealt with.

But I just think it's a matter of growing up and maturing, and that's where I'm at. Look, I'm still not perfect, but But I view that as the ultimate personal challenge under the most extreme pressure. And so I've had to look, and I think my life has shaped me into that. I think it's given me the chance to break myself on the rocks of tough times. But I was not always up to that task, and I still survived. But that's how I view the task today.

It seems to me like you have a tremendous amount of self-awareness, right? To be able to consider who you were, who you've become, how you got there, to I know a lot of people are very high-headed as well early in my life and career, and maybe still in some situations today. And a lot of people don't learn these lessons about themselves. They have to have a rock bottom moment or run into a brick wall in some place in their life before they go, maybe it's me. Is that self-awareness a survival tactic? Is it something something that you just learned over time? Was it intrinsic to you? Was there some place that you picked it up? Because we don't know each other that well, but I can just tell from the way you talk about your life and your career that you've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about not just not just reflecting on the successes and the tactics, et cetera, but also in who you were throughout that journey.

I appreciate that. Saying that you're super self-aware is like saying you're super humble. But I read a book early on called Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goldman that had come out in the time I was coming up. And thankfully, I was always a reader. Somehow I got it from my dad. He was a ridiculous reader, six books at a time, all the time. And this book begins as its foundation for emotional intelligence, which, by the way, the title of that book has become a meme. I mean, it's become part of our lexicon. We take it for granted, but it didn't always exist. I saw it born. And the first section of that book is all about self-awareness. So when I've been asked in my career in different forms, The secret to Success, some version of that, it's always rooted in that. Self-awareness is the root of all success. And again, I'm using success in its broadest form, not just money. Money can be taken and commandeered by total unself-aware tyrants, no doubt about it. We've all seen it. But for broad success across many spectrums, you will not have it if you can't get self-aware. And my best advice is, start with the books.

Read Daniel Goldman, read Tasha Yurick, Insights. It's required reading at Love Sack. We have three required reading books. One of them is Insights by Tasha Goldman, and recently Emotional Intelligence 2. 0, who is also on this podcast. This is a real science, and I believe that it's not just another thing. It's the core thing. It's the thing on which all other things stand.

I love that you've talked about reading so much. I mean, I attribute much of the success that I've had my own career to reading. I've never really had... I've had a few mentors, but nothing formal, nothing overly consistent. And I wasn't raised by parents who really knew anything about business. My mom's been a receptionist for 40 years at the same company, and my dad was a laborer on the railroad until he retired. Their entire... Theirs was just, put your head down, work, try not to get into trouble, work for the big company. That was their best advice. And the day that I came home and said I was going to college, their response was good. There was no I was just like, oh, okay, that's the next thing you're doing. And my point in saying that is, coming out of high school and getting into business was such a culture shock. Just having never been exposed or even seen my parents work in that world, and now all of a sudden you're in. And It was reading that got me through all those years and just reading book after book after book. I have a lot of them behind me.

I have more upstairs. I'm probably like your dad. I got books freaking everywhere. At any given time, I can appreciate at any given time having six books going as you work through them. But it's very difficult if you're working through, especially if you're reading, I'm going to say the right books, that is a very broad stroke, but books that are geared towards helping you become better at something you're doing or yourself. It is very difficult for that not to start to leak in through osmosis into your brain. It's such a superpower to read. And I hate when I see these stats of readership in the United States in general, going down consistently every year. There's a bunch of reasons for that, obviously. But I don't think it's giving us more depth, more pliability, more adaptability to consume everything in short form. There's something to a non-fiction book, whether it's a biography or whatever, that just... Even if you get one idea, the 15 bucks that you pay for the paperback is worth it. When you pull one idea that sticks with you. And so few people are reading and so few people attribute their success to reading.

And I'm really glad that you brought that up.

Yeah. I mean, by the way, to tie it back to what you asked about kids and their resiliency, Your kids should be reading. And your kids should also be doing things that force them to feel some fear, some resistance, some vulnerability, some danger. We complain about kids these days, but we have the chance, especially as parents or mentors or who knows what, to be more intentional about how to raise kids these days. So I do my best to read with my kids, read to my kids, see them reading, buy them books, and put them in situations that require some risk, some difficulty, some hardship. And that can come in so many ways. Hiking, canyneering, in my case, dirt biking. I love it for my son and my daughters. Dirt bikes are loud and heavy and scary and difficult, and you're on your own. There's no training wheels. You can't ride it for them. They got to learn to drop off of embankments and cliffs and things like that. And by the way, the some advice to you, meaning adults listening. Are you reading? I totally agree. I don't think anything can replace it. I don't think there is a replacement for it.

Yes, mentors are great. I was probably too cocky to really seek out mentors, if I'm being honest, probably still to today. But books can be my silent mentor to a large degree. And I put myself at risk in many different activities to keep myself. It's a It's amazing the perspective it gives you when you almost die once or twice on a really narrow, tough, fast dirt bike trail on the cliffs of Southern Utah before breakfast. It makes the Costco parking lot pretty benign.

Yeah. So I agree with this point. It's something that I've been talking about on the show and talking with other people as well is I use it as a microcosm. Probably five times a week, I cold plunge for five minutes. Yeah. So 45 to 47 degrees for three to 5 minutes, 3 in the winter because it's freaking cold in upstate New York, 5 when it's a little warmer, maybe. But the reason I do it, there's all kinds of health benefits. It doesn't matter. You can believe them, you can just believe them. It doesn't matter. I do it for one purpose because it sucks. It's terrible. It was terrible the very first time I got in it. And five years later, it's still terrible when I get in it. I still stand over edge with my finger on the start Timer button going, just get in. I'm pumping myself up. It's like the thousandth time I've been in this stupid thing, and I still have to pump myself over time because it's terrible. And people are like, why? Because if I can force myself to do something terrible, there's no positive feeling. It's terrible from the moment you get in to the moment you get out.

The first moment you get out, it's even worse. Yeah, you feel great afterwards, and there's health benefits, but mentally, it's something I don't want to do. Then when a decision comes up later in your day, you've now trained your brain to say, I can make decisions to do things that I don't want to do, but I know are in my long term benefit. It's that training mechanism of whether it's riding a dirt bike first thing in the morning or going out for an extended run and you come back and you're dripping in sweat and you're pushed yourself hard and you've ever gone or jumping out of an airplane or making that cold call or whatever that thing is that causes you fear. Just the act of doing the thing, even if it falls right on its face and doesn't work, is training you to do more of those things. I feel like with all the Instagram course, three steps to figure out all your wildest dreams come true, society that we have, everyone's searching for the hack. And it's like the same bedrock concepts and ideas seemingly get everyone who's successful to success. Yet it's almost like, how do you know you're the sucker at the table?

You're the only one that doesn't know who the sucker is. It's the same thing with all these tips and tricks and five steps and buy my template stuff that people chase using it as a microcosm. It's like, just learn how to do hard things and then go figure out those hard things and you'll eventually get the answer. But no one wants to hear that, and certainly, they aren't going to pay for that Look, it's just first principles.

Can you expect striated, bulky, ripped shoulders from not exercising? It's impossible. You cannot expect to be mentally tough if you don't work out your mind. And so pick whatever medium suits you. Cold plunge, running. I like dirt biking. And another surfing even. Because, by the way, you watch a surfer. It looks so smooth and fun. It's surfing. Yay. Dude, if you've actually paddled out through breakers and in real conditions, It's terrifying, especially, by the way, if you didn't grow up doing it like me. It's terrifying and fun as well. But it's freezing and cold and all these things, right? So whatever it is, man, build that mental toughness. Cold plunge is great. And don't expect big muscles if you're not willing to work out. It will not and it cannot happen.

So my kids convinced me to get two kittens. We had a cat. We got a kitten given to us. I didn't want a cat, but my kids wanted an animal, and I'm divorced, and their mom wouldn't get them anything. So they convinced me to get this kitten. Kitten's great. Nine months in, the kitten has a freak seizure and passes away. Oh, shoot. Kids lose their frigging mind because they love the cat. So I'm like, All right, when it's kitten season, because it's the middle of the winter, we can get another kitten, whatever. And somehow, because I'm a complete sucker, they convinced me to get two cats, two kittons. Now, probably a good decision from the standpoint of they basically just play with themselves and leave me alone during the day. But we got one normal cat that does normal cat things. And then we got one cat that is It's either a Ninja or retarded. And I'm not sure which it is because he just somehow opened the microwave door and then hit some button on the microwave, and that's what was ringing in the background, driving me insane. So apologize for that. So I would like to We're going to transition our conversation here to what's going on in the marketplace today.

So you would mention that the home category is struggling, and you had mentioned before we went live that tariffs are playing a role in that. There's so much information out there around the tariffs, and depending on what channel you listen to, you're going to get a completely different story. I'm very interested in for someone who's dealing with it every single day, what is the reality on the ground look like for you? What are you dealing with and how are you navigating this next challenge in your business?

Yeah, look, I will have written a $30 million check to the government this year that would have been profit for my company. That's like a kick in the nuts. You know what I'm saying? And it wasn't expected. There was no notice given. It blindsides you as it's moving so fast. Now, the upside is we were quick to move out of China when they first dropped the tariffs on China back in 2018 because we had already We've been working on it on instinct. So entrepreneurs have to follow their instincts. We've had a long instinct that we could make our product in the United States through automation because we can't make our core products in the United States apples to apples. The way that they're manufactured is super labor-intensive and it's just not even remotely affordable. We'd have to double the price. We'd be out of the market. But on first principles, if you understand what's unique That love sac, right? You can buy a bunch of seats, buy a bunch of sides, build any couch you want, add to it years later, because these saccional pieces are uniform. So we are fundamentally creating a lot of demand for same this, not novelty, not the new season, not the new collection, not the new style, but actually for sameness because it's good for you as a buyer because then you have all these advantages if you buy into this platform.

Well, with that platform and the success that we've had and the volume that we have overall, we should be able to automate that more successfully than anyone else that we compete with. We've known this for a long time, but it's just so cheap and easy to do overseas in the current dynamics that have been created by the globalist system. These tariffs have just kicked us out of the nest and forced us to fly and do what we've always believed we could do, but never really bothered to do because it didn't It wasn't a burning platform, and there's plenty of other things to worry about as a business. So finally, we just announced we'll be able to onshore most of our product by the end of next year and starting in the middle of next year. But it's only because we started working on this on instinct a long time ago, researching new materials, researching new manufacturing methods, robotics, all of these things. It's going to come to bear very quickly. I think LoveSack is going to be on the right side of history and going to be a a leader there. And regardless, even if tariffs went away, we can do it on a cost-neutral basis.

So in our world, this is pretty remarkable. But what's, I think, even more interesting is not that we're doing it and that we're on-shoring or will be a leader in a lot of respects, but that we've created a system that really goes against the grain of all the stuff we buy, generally. Most of the stuff you buy, like your iPhone. You don't really need a new iPhone. They've convinced you, you do. And by the way, they've even more dastardly made it so you do. We all know. Like even my own son, very quickly at age 14, Dad, don't update your phone. Mine sucks. He's experiencing this. And no one told them. This is a real phenomenon. And the crazy thing is we let it happen. We're like lambs to the slaughter. Just keep walking. You know what I mean? Toward the death of the Earth, they'll extract more resources to build this thing again and give you back the same thing you've practically already had. You and I could imagine what the love sack version of this looks like, the built to last, designed to evolve version, maybe with a camera that could be Swapped in, swapping the battery.

These things are not rocket science to think of. But we both know, you and I both know, they'll never do that. The business is too good. And because of that, they've never really been forced to innovate in places. They could have cured cancer by now. They have hundreds of billions in cash. Apple does. They could have solved traffic. They could have done something instead of give me better emojis, AI emojis now. And so look, I'm trying to build a brand that is very different on principles that are very different, not just from furniture, but from all stuff. We're trying to create demand for sameness, not newness only. And we still need newness to drive the business in lots of different ways. So I'm really proud of what we're doing at Love Sack. We call this philosophy, this design for life philosophy. It's very unique to Love Sack. And ultimately, the result is sustainability. And I don't need to be a tree hugger and preach to you about climate change to do the things that are good things. Forget the politics of it. I think that being, for instance, making stuff closer to the end user, shipped over shorter distances, is a good thing no matter what.

Because right now I'm chopping down trees in Canada to get them to Vietnam, to use probably coal-powered electricity, to turn them into furniture, to then diesel-fuel them back to Long Beach, to then rail them to Chicago, to then FedEx them to your house. And by the way, almost everything you own in your life came to you that way. You tell me that makes a lot of sense.

Do you think you are at the tip of the spear of a trend to back to sustainable long lasting products, or do you think you guys are a snowflake in that regard?

I don't know. I would love to believe that we are the tip of the spear, and I would love to believe that people will put their money where they're mouth is because our products are not cheap. Because to build something that lasts a lifetime is not cheap. So we'll never be selling cheap couches or cheap anything, to fill in the blank. We are winning. We have the best selling sectional in the United States of America by the numbers. So we're not losing. And we're being emulated in many respects. And I think ultimately, if we can convince people to think this way and have this great experience with the products they buy, they might start thinking differently about the other stuff they buy. And that's where the movement needs to come from. It's not going to come from guilting people in to feeling bad about the polarized caps. It should, but it won't. It will come from leveraging people's self-interest so they're doing the right thing for themselves because it's better. It's better for them. Buying one of my couches, if they understand it, ultimately save them money, save them time, save them headache. Their dog can puke on it, peel a cover off, wash it.

Your cat can destroy one arm, one cover to one arm. The whole thing's new again. But that's a mouthful. That's a lot of stuff to try and tell someone in a 15-second ad that also needs to look pretty so that their spouse will accept it into their home. So it's a It's very high bar. It's very difficult what we're doing. But if we can do it at scale, it will then be emulated. And I think the movement can be both pushed and pulled by people wanting better stuff. And so to me, we come full circle back to why am I still here? Why am I still interested in doing this after 27 years in? It's because, man, look, I'd love to make money doing it, all this stuff. We need to make money doing it. But if I can do something like what I just explained to you, that will have been a life well-lived, and it can move the needle. And to me, that's highly motivating.

Yeah. I hope you're right, man. I had an experience the other day. I have a Chevy Tahoe. It's a 2019, so it's six years going on, seven years old. Runs great. It's got 8,000 miles. I love it to death. I have kids in sports, so they can beat the shit out of it, and I don't care. I can truck teammates around. And I had someone the other day go, because there's a couple of dings in it. I'm six years old. And I had someone come to me and go, Why don't you just get a new one? And I was like, Well, this one runs great. I don't have a payment on it, and it does everything I need, and it's comfortable, and I like it. But they're like, Yeah, but you could trade it in and get a new one. And I'm like, Yeah, but then I'd have a car payment. I would have more money coming out of my pocket for something that does the same exact thing as the thing that I have now. But it's like I could see a business The business case, it's almost... The sad part is, in close with this, is I can almost see the business case for the movement that you're developing, for sustainable products, interchangeable products for people enjoying and building on the things that they have, not just tossing them out and getting something new.

I'm all for that and with it. I worry more about the consumer mentality than the corporate mentality in that movement. Not that it can't come around, and I would love for it to do that. But maybe with AI, it starts to. Maybe we get the time back in our life where we like maintaining our home, maintaining our cars, maintaining the things that are important in our lives, again, because we have more time. I do feel like it's very hectic. I think life is intrinsically hectic. You can set yourself I can get myself up to reduce that, but it's an intrinsically hectic time. But ultimately, I think consumers have a long way to come in the way that they've been trained for the last two decades. But dude, I love the story. I love what you're going after. I appreciate the hell out of you. And the time that you've taken with us today. Tell everyone where they can get the book, and then if they just want to get deeper into your world in general, is there anywhere where they can connect with you and follow along? Other, obviously, than your actual retail site, the Lovesack site.

Yeah, look, slide into my DMs. I'm Sean of Lovesack on every social media channel, YouTube channel with the podcast, Let Me Save You 25 Years, which reflects the content from the book, Let Me Save You 25 Years, available everywhere you get books. I'm really proud of it. If you have a young person in your life that has some ambition, buy them this book. I wrote it for them. It's meant to save you from at least a little bit of a heartache by learning from my mistakes that I made starting at 18 years old versus making them all yourself. And I love to be available through social media for sure. Easy to find, and so is Love Sack.

Awesome. And guys, I'll have all the links. Whether you're watching on YouTube or listening wherever you do. Just scroll down, you'll have them. Connect with Sean. I love what you're doing, man. Appreciate you. Thanks again for the time.

Thank you.