Transcript of What's next for Lindsay Clancy? A teen's murder on cruise ship. Plus, does the insanity defense work?

Hi, I'm Kate Snow, NBC News anchor and host of the NBC News podcast, The Drink. This month, I'm sitting down with actor, writer, producer Brendan Hunt. Most of you know him as Coach Beard from Ted Lasso, but there is so much more to his story. We sit down, we talk about all of it, from his bumpy upbringing to his years in improv comedy and how a Hollywood rejection opened the door to co-creating Ted Lasso. It's an open, funny conversation about perseverance, creativity, and the winding road that brought him right here. We hope you'll join us for The Drink. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, guys.

Good morning.

It's the start of another workday for the Dateline team. Supposedly, he stages his own kidnapping. Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news.

We've got crews ready to go.

He was ordered under house arrest with no exceptions.

Stranger things have happened.

Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's September 10th, and here's what's on our docket. In Florida, the trial of a 16-year-old accused of murdering his stepsister on a cruise ship is delayed for a surprising reason.

You might think, oh, maybe that's a stall tactic, but here's the explanation.

In Dateline Roundup, we've got the latest on the Texas man who fled to Italy on the eve of his murder trial. And Barry Morphew, the Colorado husband accused of killing his wife with an animal tranquilizer, is back in court.

So Barry was arrested last week, and according to a court filing, he was involved in a hit-and-run crash.

Plus, the insanity defense. We heard a lot about it at Lindsay Clancy's trial, but how often is it actually used?

When these cases come up, it becomes a battle of the experts.

Before all that, we're heading back to Massachusetts for an update on the explosive final hours of the Clancy trial and where the case goes from here. Last week, a jury of 9 women and 3 men entered their 7th day of deliberations in a case that has transfixed the nation. Lindsay Clancy, the 36-year-old mother and former labor and delivery nurse accused of murdering her 3 young children. Prosecutors urged the jury to find Lindsay guilty, saying she deliberately planned the children's deaths. Lindsay's defense argued she was not in her right mind, struggling with postpartum psychosis and a cocktail of medications. Twice, the jury told the judge they were deadlocked. Twice, he sent them back to try to find common ground. Then on Friday morning, just after 11:00 AM, the jury came back with a note that kicked off an extraordinary series of events. Our own Blaine Alexander was there for it all and is here now to fill us in on the drama inside the courtroom, what jurors have since revealed about their deliberations, and what could happen next. Blaine, thanks for being here.

Andrea, thanks so much for having me.

So as we said, Blaine, you were at the Plymouth County Courthouse for the final week of trial. What was it like reporting from there? Set the scene for us.

Andrea, I can't overstate for you just how many— of course, traditional media, but just bloggers, people who were streaming, how many people were at that courthouse trying to capture every single moment of what was happening.

Yeah, it seems like you can't click on social media or a news website and not see the Lindsay Clancy trial. It has gotten so much attention, Blaine.

You're absolutely right, Andrea, and not just from the people, of course, who were there in Plymouth, but there have been people who have really felt some sort of connection to this case. In fact, uh, Lindsay Clancy's attorney, her defense attorney Kevin Reddington, actually came in holding what he said was a box of letters from people who had just written to her over the course of this trial wanting to show their support.

Yeah, she definitely has a lot of support, and then there's people That don't support her.

That's right. In addition to the supporters and the people, of course, who go the other way, there have been a lot of conspiracy theories flying around about this case, um, specifically about the role that her husband Patrick played in all this. And so that really has added to just so much of the, the chatter here in all of this.

One of the theories is that Patrick might be responsible for the children's deaths. And we just want to say that he has never been accused of anything by law enforcement or prosecutors.

Absolutely. And not only has he not been accused of anything, but Lindsay Clancy herself and her defense attorney have not disputed the fact that she, in fact, killed her children. But yes.

And that's, that's what's making some of these conspiracy theories seem so outlandish.

Yes.

Because of her confession that she killed the children.

Exactly.

Yeah.

All right, Blaine, let's get into what happened in the courtroom. The last time we checked in on the case, it was day 5 of deliberations. After saying they were deadlocked, the judge sent the jury back with special instructions, basically saying that there was no better jury that they should do their best to come to a verdict. Blaine, what happened next?

So, this was— this was kind of the beginning of perhaps one of the most dramatic periods of a trial that I've ever covered. So, Thursday, there was a note that was sent from the foreperson basically saying that they were 11 to 1, and there was one person that they believed had expressed doubt but wasn't willing to vote for not guilty, basically. And the judge gave instructions, basically read another definition of reasonable doubt, and sent them back to begin deliberating again. And you could see defense attorney Kevin Reddington getting upset. He then came out, asked for that juror to be removed.

If we come back here in half an hour with a mistrial because of a— because of a juror that has just spurned the instructions of this court, it's a shame. And that's why my motion is to remove this juror that refuses to listen to your instruction on reasonable doubt.

The prosecution opposed that, saying that the juror should actually stay on the jury. And ultimately, the judge sided with the prosecution on that.

I don't feel it's appropriate for me to say I agree with one juror or the 11.

Deliberations resumed first thing Friday morning. Did you get the sense that there had to be an end in sight now, regardless of what was going to happen? I mean, you can't just keep sending them back.

Absolutely. Then we heard there was a note from the jury. Judge Sullivan read the jurors' final note.

It is with a heavy heart that we report we are unable to come to a unanimous decision and will not be able to.

Judge Sullivan announced that he felt that he really didn't have a choice anymore but to declare a mistrial. Blaine, Kevin Reddington, Lindsay's defense attorney, did something very bold at that point.

It was unbelievable, Andrea. He made a last-minute appeal to the state Supreme Court, essentially trying to stop a mistrial from being called. Now, I have to talk to you about the timing of this, Andrea. I kind of equated this to someone— if doors are about to close, someone throwing their body in between elevator doors to keep it open, because that's exactly what it felt like when we watched him do that.

Yeah.

And we have some sound from Judge Sullivan trying to wrap his head around it.

I'm just trying to find out what it is that you're asking for.

What I'm asking for is time to file a single justice appeal for this travesty. That's what I'm asking for.

So you're asking for an emergency stay at this point?

Yes.

So the judge said, you have 1 hour to file that emergency stay with the state Supreme Court. And so everyone filed back out of the courtroom, and the clock started right then.

So many legal twists and turns in this case. What happened next?

There was a Zoom meeting that we actually watched members of the defense team go leave the courtroom, go into a side room. We saw the prosecution's team go into a different side room. All of us media were crowded around several laptops in the hallway, and we were watching this Zoom meeting live, Just to see what would happen. And that's when we saw them all basically argue their cases before a Supreme Judicial Court Associate Justice who ultimately denied that stay.

Okay. So with that stay denied, that's when the judge moved ahead, declared the mistrial. The judge thanked the jurors for their dedication before dismissing them. Did you see any visible reactions from the jurors? I would imagine in this case, they had to feel defeated.

Oh, it was very clear. I mean, there was emotion on their face. There was one juror, a woman, who leaned forward, put her hands on her face, I mean, was clearly upset, sat hunched over for a few minutes, and then came back up, took her hands down, exhaled audibly, and then for the rest of the time that the judge spoke, looked like she was holding back tears. I mean, we're talking about raw emotion coming from people who've dedicated, I mean, weeks of their lives to hearing and trying to decide this case.

I wish we could have come through for Lindsay. I feel very sad that we couldn't.

I think the biggest thing that kept coming back to me was how many times she asked for help. Earlier this week, 3 of the jurors, Kelly Farina, Paula Devlin, and foreperson Ronnie Carlson, sat down with NBC 10 Boston's Sue O'Connell in an exclusive interview to talk about their experience.

We kept having to bring ourselves back to the fact that she— we weren't trying to figure out if she murdered the children. She did. And she's admitting that. We're trying to figure out, did she know right from wrong at that time? And with everybody saying she loved her children so much and everything proved she loved her children from her journals to— Her mother-in-law, everything proved that she loved her children. So she had to have snapped and not known what she was doing.

As for the holdout juror?

He admitted he had reasonable doubt. And I started filling out the forms. I was so excited. I actually— there were 3 forms I had to fill out. And I started filling them out. I wrote my signature on each one. And then he said, but I'm still not gonna say that she's not guilty by reason of insanity.

Now, like the rest of us, the 3 jurors are wondering what comes next.

That she should be retried.

I would like to see her being retried. I would like him not to retry her, but if he chooses to, I will be in that courtroom. Blaine, the district attorney spoke outside the courtroom immediately after the mistrial was called. Do you know what the state is going to do?

Yeah, we heard first from the district attorney, Tim Cruz, who said he hasn't decided whether or not he's going to retry this.

And we should say he really defends this case, that— and why his office took it to trial. He did.

And he spoke pretty passionately.

This was and has always been about getting justice for those 3 little babies. We're here at this courthouse today because those children are not.

Kevin Reddington, the defense attorney, on the other hand, said if they try and prosecute her again, we're ready to go as soon as next week. Like, bring it on, let's do it. He did, however, mention though that he was concerned about Lindsay, thought it would be very difficult for her to withstand another case.

It's not right what she had to go through because she grieves the loss of those 3 children Cora, Dawson, and Callan.

We know that there's going to be a status hearing on September 29th regarding the next steps. And in the meantime, Lindsay Clancy is going to remain where she has been this entire time. That's Tewksbury Hospital, which is a state-run psychiatric hospital. And she's been there for the better part of 3 and a half years now.

Her ex-husband, Patrick Clancy, released 2 statements. What did he want to get across, Blaine?

Well, a couple of things. He Wanted to get across that he was very grateful to the jury for their hard work. But he did want to make the point that the possibility of having to essentially relive this tragedy of losing his children through another trial was extraordinarily painful. And then, yes, Andrea, he released a statement on Tuesday with a very different tone, pushing back against those conspiracy theories that we talked about. He basically said enough is enough, and he threatened legal action.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see how the state responds to Patrick Clancy, because we know that they often consult families, you know, when making decisions like this.

I will say that spending the amount of time that I did in Plymouth, this has been extraordinarily hard on everybody in this community. And I can't overstate that enough.

You know, when you have a trial that is so high profile. It's just— it's a lot for everyone involved. Blaine, we know that you will stay on this case, and we're so grateful for your reporting from the courthouse.

Of course. Thanks so much for having me, Andrea.

Coming up, family tension in the run-up to the trial of a teen charged with murdering his stepsister.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with crossover country superstar Megan Maroney at the Barclays Center in Brooklyn to talk about her number one album, her sold-out arena tour, and her rapid rise to the top of the music world. You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts.

The midterms are just around the corner, and it's safe to say there's been a lot of noise about the election. Well, now it's time to lock in. What's really on the ballot this November, and what's really at stake? We'll get you up to speed on all of it. I'm NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Garrett Haake, and every Saturday from now to Election Day, I'm hosting Here's the Scoop: Election Edition. We'll talk to some of the smartest voices about the top issues that are going to define this election. From President Trump's influence to the war with Iran, to affordability and AI in politics, we're diving into all of it and what it could all mean for the direction of the country. Join me every Saturday. Just search Here's the Scoop wherever you listen and follow now.

Over the years, I've met people whose lives were changed forever in a single moment. In my new podcast, Before and After, I explore what happens after that decisive moment. Personal, powerful conversations with Colin Kaepernick, Jeremy Renner, Gabby Giffords, and others. Join me wherever you get your podcasts. Before and After with Lester Holt premieres Monday, September 14th. Follow now to listen completely free or subscribe to Dateline Premium to unlock new episodes early.

In November of last year, the Carnival Horizon cruise ship docked in Miami after a voyage to the Caribbean. But before passengers finished disembarking, FBI agents FBI agents stormed the ship to begin investigating a horrifying crime. The FBI is investigating the mysterious death of a woman on board a Carnival cruise ship over the— The victim was 18-year-old Anna Kepner, a high school senior and cheerleader. She had been sexually assaulted and strangled to death in her cabin. A few months later, Anna's stepbrother, 16-year-old Timothy Hudson, surrendered to law enforcement and was charged with her murder. This week, Timothy, who has pleaded not guilty, was supposed to go to trial, but an unusual legal request from his defense attorney stopped everything in its tracks. Here to bring us up to speed on the case is NBC News correspondent Jesse Kirsch. Jesse, thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me, Andrea.

Jesse, before we get into the details of this tragic crime, tell us more about Anna Kepner.

Yeah, so I remember this from when we were covering the immediate aftermath. Her family was describing her as someone who had a, quote, bright, and beautiful soul. She was soon to be graduating high school. She grew up and was living in Titusville, Florida. That's between Orlando and the Kennedy Space Center, for people who aren't familiar. She had plans of possibly joining the US Navy after high school. And then everything, of course, completely changes, and suddenly her car is at her high school parking lot covered in flowers and balloons, and it's become a memorial.

Really, really sad. Do we know anything about her relationship with her stepbrother? Before this happened?

We know that they were sharing a room on board the cruise ship, according to what has come out in this case from prosecutors. Anna's younger brother was also sharing that room with them, but it's not clear how long they had had a relationship before their parents had gotten married, if they had one. Anna's father and her stepbrother's mom had only been married about 11 months before this happened.

Jesse, what did you learn about the circumstances of her death on that cruise ship.

The way this unfolded is there were crew members that allegedly found Anna Kepner's body wrapped in a blanket or a bedsheet under her bed in her cabin on the cruise ship. According to records from the Miami-Dade Medical Examiner's Office, Anna Kepner had bruising on her neck. The cause of death has been determined to be asphyxia. So effectively, she was choked.

And also, the medical examiner suspected she'd been sexually assaulted. Do we know how quickly Timothy, her stepbrother, fell under suspicion for her death?

Yeah, so according to what we've learned from court documents, the medical examiner did a rape kit during the autopsy, and investigators got a search warrant to get DNA from her stepbrother pretty quickly. And according to court documents, Prosecutors say his DNA is a match to the DNA from the rape kit.

He was charged with Anna's murder in February, but initially as a juvenile, so everything was kept under seal. But that changed in April, right?

Yes. So he was 16 when this alleged murder happened. He was being looked at as a minor, and then months later, he is then charged as an adult.

They're essentially saying it's the seriousness of the crimes that being charged as an adult now is more appropriate. Jesse, what else do we know about the prosecution's case?

Yeah, so of course DNA evidence is huge, right? But they also say they have surveillance footage that illustrates some of the events that unfolded. So what prosecutors say is that CCTV footage from the ship showed Timothy Hudson entering the cabin, which again he was sharing with Anna Kepner, around 7:30 PM. And within minutes, Anna Kepner goes into that same cabin, according to the footage. And here's the key part of this, Andrea. The footage does not show Anna Kepner ever leave that room again. That, of course, helps illustrate her movements and where they stop. And then the next day, surveillance footage from the cruise ship appears to show Timothy Hudson dumping something in a trash can. And the reason that is getting attention is because prosecutors talk about how Anna Kepner's phone had been smashed and was found in a trash can later on.

Has the prosecution offered any kind of a theory of a possible motive here?

So they haven't shared much. They haven't— right. We have not gone to trial here yet, so we have not heard the full case from prosecutors. But there was testimony that came from law enforcement that Anna Kepner's ex-boyfriend says that there was a FaceTime call he was on with her. She fell asleep and the call was still going, and he saw Anna Kepner's stepbrother allegedly trying to get into her bed. That's, of course, one incident that is alleged, right? Important to say that.

Yeah.

It's an allegation. But that same ex-boyfriend talks about Anna Kepner allegedly being nervous because Timothy Hudson had knives. So prosecutors are at least putting out there that they are thinking about a possible tension with that relationship there.

What has the defense said about all of this?

Importantly, let's also talk about what they have not said. The defense does not deny that there could have been a sexual encounter between Anna Kepner and Timothy Hudson, but the defense also says that prosecutors do not have proof that this was anything other than a consensual interaction. The defense has also pointed out that There's no camera inside the room, right? So we don't know exactly what happened.

And he is being tried in federal court, Timothy. His trial has been delayed.

Yes.

So his defense team actually asked for this delay, right? You have the right to a speedy trial, but his defense team requested a delay saying they want more time to prepare. And that's something that you might think, oh, maybe that's a stall tactic. But here's the explanation from the defense team. The defense said in part, quote, the unique and very unfortunate family dynamic that has resulted from the allegations here is prompting them to want this delay, and that is contributing to challenges in how they are able to prepare their case and get to know the circumstances surrounding their client's life before this unfolded and what may have allegedly led him to do something.

In, in the motion, the defense is talking about how they don't have access to certain family members that help facilitate their investigation?

That's right.

So the judge granted the defense's request to delay the trial. So what happens next, Jesse?

The new trial date is November 2nd, but we'll see if that actually happens, if it gets delayed again, or of course, Andrea, there's always the possibility there could be a plea agreement before this even goes to trial.

Jesse, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thanks for having me, Andrea.

Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. Barry Morphew, the Colorado husband accused of murdering his wife over Mother's Day weekend in 2020, faces a judge. And new charges for one of the people accused of murdering Microsoft employee and father of 4, Jared Breidigan. Plus, the insanity defense. How often do people use it? And does it actually work?

Welcome back.

Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline producer Rachel White. Hey, Rachel.

Hey, Andrea. Thanks for having me.

Our first story, Rachel, is out of Boulder, Colorado, and we have an update in the case of Barry Morphew. It's actually been a while since we've heard Barry's name. He is accused of murdering his wife, Suzanne Morphew, who went missing on Mother's Day 2020. Barry was initially arrested for her murder in 2021, only for prosecutors to drop the charges. Then, after Suzanne's remains were found in 2023, Barry was charged with her murder for a second time. Rachel, remind us how the prosecution is connecting Barry to Suzanne's death.

Yeah, so according to prosecutors, the medical examiner found something called BAM in Suzanne's body, which is a veterinary-grade animal tranquilizer. And they say official records show Barry was the only private citizen in the area at the time of Suzanne's disappearance who had access to the drug.

Barry has pleaded not guilty, and until recently was on house arrest after posting $3 million bond, waiting for the start of his trial. Rachel, he had some pretty strict conditions on his bond, right?

He did. Barry was not allowed to leave the house except for work, court hearings, and medical appointments. So it was pretty strict.

Yeah.

Which brings us to a twist in this case, something that I did not see coming, Rachel.

Yeah, so Barry was arrested last week, and according to a court filing, he was involved in a hit-and-run crash with 2 other vehicles back in late August in the Denver area. And on Tuesday, he was back in court to answer some tough questions from the judge.

So how did authorities even find out that he was allegedly involved in this hit-and-run?

Well, the judge said that she received an email from a quote-unquote concerned citizen and reviewed a video of the incident taken by one of the victims, who then confirmed confronted the man who hit their car. And the judge said the man on the video is very clearly Barry Morphew.

CBS Colorado acquired the video from one of the victims. Let's play a clip of it.

If there is no damage, that's great, but I want to take it to somebody, and I need your insurance, and I need your ID, please.

Do you have your ID?

I don't, but I can give you mine.

According to the victim, Barry Morphew fled the scene after he was informed the police were coming. At the hearing, the prosecutor said that GPS data from Morphew's ankle bracelet suggests he was driving to the Denver airport at the time of the alleged hit-and-run. Rachel, do we know why?

According to prosecutors, it could have been to pick up his daughter, but that would be a violation of his bail conditions. And the judge said there was no indication whatsoever that he was at the airport in a working capacity at the time of the crash.

He had no purpose in being at the airport that day. No legitimate purpose, I should say. What did the judge ultimately decide?

So the judge decided to raise Barry's bond to $10 million, cash only. She said that if Barry posts bond, he will not be able to leave the house for any reason except to go to court or if there's a medical emergency involving an ambulance. Okay.

Now we are going to Jacksonville, Florida, for an interesting development in the case of murdered Microsoft employee Jared Breidigan. He was gunned down in February 2022 when he got out of his car to move a tire lying in the road. We talked a few weeks ago on the podcast about the trial of Mario Fernandez-Saldana, one of the 3 people who have been charged in connection with Jared's murder. Rachel, give us a quick recap.

So Mario Fernandez-Saldana is married to Jared's ex-wife, Shanna Gardner. Shanna and Jared shared 2 young children, and prosecutors argued at Mario's recent trial that Shanna and Jared's disputes over their children had become so bitter that Shanna and Mario plotted to hire a hitman to kill Jared. Mario was convicted, but Shanna and the alleged hitman, a man who rented property from Mario by the name of Henry Tennant, have yet to go to trial. They both have pleaded not guilty.

Shanna Gardner's trial was supposed to start last week, but her defense asked for a continuance because of disturbing new allegations that came out about Mario just a day after he was convicted, Rachael.

Yeah, so Mario has been charged with 2 counts of lewd or lascivious molestation, and prosecutors say he molested 2 young victims in 2020 and 2022, respectively. He is yet to enter a plea in that case.

How does this affect Shanna's case now?

Well, Gardner's defense now says this new evidence against Mario could prove that he had a motive to kill Jared independent of Shanna, and they need time to investigate that.

Rachel, what are they alleging the motive could be here?

So, they're saying the motive could be that Jared found out about Mario's alleged molestation, so Mario needed a way to essentially keep him quiet.

What did the judge decide?

Judge Landon Kight has pushed the trial date to May of 2027.

Okay.

Thank you for these updates, Rachel.

Thank you.

As we talked about earlier, the Lindsay Clancy trial hinged on whether jurors would buy her defense that she was not in her right mind when she killed her children. Trials involving the insanity defense are few and far between, so it made us wonder, how do they actually work? And how do you prove to a jury what was going on in someone's mind at the time of a crime? We asked our friend, defense attorney and NBC News legal analyst, Danny Savallos, to break it down for us. Hey, Danny.

Hey, Andrea.

So, we are so used to talking about trials that involve evidence, forensics, timelines, facts. You know, debating whether someone is insane or not is something entirely different. Danny, where do you even start?

That's right. And the insanity defense, the concept of insanity is a legal one, not a medical one. And just suffering from a mental illness or disorder, it's not enough.

What is the standard of proof in a courtroom when we're talking about this?

This is so fascinating because when you think of all the advancements we've made in the world of mental health, many courts still use the test that was developed in the 19th century called the M'Naghten test. We all learned it in law school. And it came about in 1843 when an Englishman, Daniel M'Naghten, shot and killed and killed the Prime Minister's secretary, believing that the Prime Minister was conspiring against him. Of course, the Prime Minister was not. He was acquitted by reason of insanity, and that gave us the M'Naghten test. Basically, a defendant has to prove one of two things. Either that, as a result of that mental illness or defect, the defendant either didn't know what she was doing, or that she didn't know what was right and wrong. And by the way, the important thing to know about right and wrong is it's not your own subjective awareness of right and wrong. It's whether you're aware that society deems what you're doing to be wrong.

Danny, we know that in criminal cases, a defendant is innocent until proven guilty. So how does the burden of proof work when it comes to insanity? This is gonna sound silly, but is a person sane until proven insane?

No, that's a great way of putting it. And the reason you're Right, is that insanity is called an affirmative defense. And an affirmative defense is essentially where you say, okay, you have all these underlying elements of a crime, but I, as the defendant, say there are additional facts, in addition to those underlying facts, that essentially excuse my conduct or exonerate me. Jurisdictions vary on whether or not the defendant has the burden of proof. So, for example, in federal court, the burden is on the defendant to prove by clear and convincing evidence that he is insane. Oh, what a difference in Massachusetts, which I believe has the most forgiving, most beneficial defense-oriented insanity defense. In Massachusetts, once insanity is raised, the prosecution has the burden to disprove insanity, and beyond a reasonable doubt, the highest standard in our legal system.

Wow. It almost sounds subjective, you know, depending on where you are or what kind of court you're in.

You couldn't be more right. And that's why when these cases come up, it becomes a battle of the experts. And as you can imagine, if you can find a medical expert on things like broken bones or nerve damage that say complete opposite things at trial, well, you can imagine that you can find medical providers and experts in the mental health area that can testify to completely different conclusions about a criminal defendant. And that is exactly what happened in the Lindsay Clancy trial.

All right. I know that there's no, like, real, like, stats on this, but anecdotally, how often does the insanity defense work?

Rare. It's rarely used because it's a huge gambit. You have to admit to the underlying conduct. And moreover, you're going to be institutionalized even if you succeed.

Yeah. I mean, you know, you think, oh, it feels lighter maybe if they're found guilty by reason of insanity, but they are still locked up.

Exactly right. So there isn't any hard rule for how long folks are kept in these institutions. But from what I've seen, and this is just anecdotal, they generally keep them a long time.

Yeah. I mean, Andrea Yates, she drowned her 5 children after she said she heard a voice telling her to do it. At her second trial, a jury found her not guilty by reason of insanity, and she is still in the mental institution. But in a twist, she actually didn't want to leave.

Yeah. Not surprisingly, there are folks who maybe find that the treatment is helping them.

With regards to Andrea, the jury finding her not guilty by reason of insanity, why do you think the jury went with that verdict in her case? So similar to Lindsay Clancy.

Yeah, I mean, I've heard a lot of the same things during the Lindsay Clancy trial, and it's kind of a circular conclusion, which is— and you've probably heard a lot of this— No sane person would kill their 3 children. Therefore, the horror of the crime itself is evidence of insanity. And I get that. You hear a lot of folks say that. And maybe that's what happens in these cases where mothers kill their children, that jurors are more willing than they otherwise would be to accept and consider an insanity defense for that reason. Anyone who would do this the thinking goes, has to be insane.

Thank you so much for your insight into this. I'm sure we'll see you back here again soon, Danny. Thank you for this.

Thank you.

That's it for this episode of Dateline: True Crime Weekly. Make sure to check out Lester's new podcast series, Before and After with Lester Holt. Starting on September 14th, he'll be talking to Jeremy Renner, Colin Kaepernick, Gabby Giffords, and others about the moments that changed their lives forever. and their resilience in the face of the unimaginable.

What's it like to die?

If you're gonna die, you don't want to die alone.

To get early access to the first episode now, subscribe to Dateline Premium. And coming up this Friday on Dateline, on the 25th anniversary of 9/11, stories of courage and survival featuring rarely seen NBC News archive footage from Ground Zero that day, plus powerful and emotional new interviews with the people our cameras caught during the terrorist attacks.

Second plane came in and hit.

And I turned, and I got the fireball and the explosion. And it was then that everybody knew, absolutely knew, this was not an accident.

Watch Facing Ground Zero at 10/9c on Dateline on NBC. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, and Keonie Reid. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone Groth and Aria Young. Production and fact-checking help by Macy Hanslick Behrend. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kuriloff. Veronica Mizejka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer, and Liz Kuhl is senior executive producer of Dateline. Bye, everyone.

This fall on NBC—

U.S.

Marshals!

The premiere of Line of Fire, a thrilling new crime drama.

The world sees us as heroes, but they don't know what the job really costs.

One family of federal agents— It's one thing to put yourself in danger. It's different when it's your family. Balances duty to their country—

An assassin is still out there.

Stop!

And each other.

How do you protect the world and the people you love at the same time?

Every case hits home on Line of Fire, premiering Monday, September 21st on NBC.