Transcript of Talking Dateline: The Grudge

Hi, I'm Kate Snow, NBC News anchor and host of the NBC News podcast, The Drink. This month, I'm sitting down with actor, writer, producer Brendan Hunt. Most of you know him as Coach Beard from Ted Lasso, but there is so much more to his story. We sit down, we talk about all of it, from his bumpy upbringing to his years in improv comedy and how a Hollywood rejection opened the door to co-creating Ted Lasso. It's an open, funny conversation about perseverance, creativity, and the winding road that brought him right here. We hope you'll join us for The Drink. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I am joined by my dear friend, Andrea Canning, to discuss her episode, The Grudge. Hi, Andrea.

Hey, Blaine.

If you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed, and then, of course, come right back here. Later on, we'll have a clip from Andrea's conversation with Judge Salas 4 years after the original Dateline episode aired. And that's when they catch up about grief and parenting. But first, let's talk Dateline.

Let's do it.

Andrea, I have to say, I mean, as soon as I started watching this, I just came into it blind, didn't know anything but the title. But as soon as I saw the judge, I said, gosh, she looks so familiar. And then immediately said, I remember this case. This happened in 2020, right during kind of like the heart of COVID Yes. And it was such a huge story at the time.

Such a horrific situation. where Judge Salas describes a wonderful weekend with her son, Daniel, her husband, Mark. Daniel had friends staying. They had gone home, and, uh, Judge Salas and Daniel were in the basement, and they hear the doorbell ring. And he— Daniel says, I'll, you know, I'll go get it. He bounds up the stairs. His dad had already answered the door, and it's a man dressed as a delivery driver, only he's not a— And this is at a time, as you said, during COVID when people were getting a lot— and we get so many now, deliveries. But remember, we didn't get nearly as many before COVID Oh, yeah.

Everything was delivery.

Right.

Everything was delivery. And so, I don't think they thought twice about answering the door, you know, for a delivery man, as many of us may not even today think twice about it. But it was during a time of a lot of packages. They opened the door, and it was a man who shot Mark and just shot shot Daniel. And Esther could hear it, you know, the gunshots, and she ran upstairs. And it was just so incredibly heartbreaking. Her son, of course, Daniel, did not make it. Her only child. And it turned out that it was a man who had been in her courtroom, who— she is a federal judge. He was angry with her, even though she had ruled in his favor. It was about the draft. He has all these issues with men's rights, and he felt that women should be in the draft as well. And she had said that the case could move forward, but it wasn't moving fast enough for this man.

When you think of a motive like that, and somebody who just— somebody that you kind of come across in your daily life, don't think much about the interaction, don't think— I mean, she has many hundreds of people come in and out of her courtroom every day, I'm sure. I remember when she said in the episode with you, yeah, I remember the case, but it wasn't one that, like, stuck out. They were thinking about more high-profile cases where there could have been more anger. Um, it just really kind of makes you think about, gosh, these professions that you don't necessarily think would be dangerous, um, can be— can really put you in somebody's crosshairs like this.

Yeah, I mean, she's a federal judge. We know that not everyone who leaves a courtroom is happy, right? That, you know, there's a lot of— there's a lot of anger in courtrooms, a lot of things that go on. I think this man clearly had a lot of anger about a lot of things.

Yeah. There was a piece that really stuck out to me where somebody told her that he hated you as soon as you were born, because she was a woman, and she's Hispanic, right? When I heard that, immediately thought, okay, yes, she ruled in his favor. But here is this woman, this minority woman that he has to go to, who's in a position of power. Somebody like him would have a great deal of resentment over that. Just based on what we know about him.

I mean, you would think so, yeah. Like, we're not in his head, but everything we've heard and read and seen, you know, that makes total sense. Sure.

Yeah.

And meanwhile, it's— you know, what he resents is everything that I love about her. You know, it's like I see the other side of that, that here's a woman who came from absolutely nothing, and she told this incredible story about her life and all of her siblings, and they had a fire, and she had a single mom and no money, and God, through law school and worked her way up to federal judge.

You know, I was just struck by the fact that she was so composed. I mean, of course, she's a judge. She's a very intelligent, highly educated woman. But she was so composed and just had this strength that radiated from her when she spoke about what happened. One of the things that was striking to me is that typically when we do our stories, it's more rare than not that we have an opportunity to speak to somebody who was essentially right there when something happened, right?

Yeah.

That heard the gunshots, didn't find out about it afterwards, but heard the gunshots. heard the gunshots, heard everything, had that moment of confusion, saw her loved ones horribly lying there injured. And it's just unbelievable that she was there and really kind of described that scene.

You talk about how composed she is, right? Which she is, right? She can talk about it. She can talk about how she's dealing with everything, the worst, you know, moment of her entire life. But she said, she's like, Andrea, make no mistake, you know, when I'm alone or when I'm not in front of a camera or in my courtroom, I am, you know, struggling. You know, she said, I have done— she has done so much work.

Hmm.

Like, to try to handle this on a day-to-day basis, reading and doing a deep dive, like a psychological deep dive. therapy, reading about grief. You almost get this sense when you're talking to her, like she's okay.

Yeah.

Right? You know, like everything's okay. And you can't be okay, right? When your only child has been taken from you because of your job.

Of course.

One of the things that's really amazing is that she talks about forgiving Roy Den Hollander, the man who killed her son, shot her husband, and then killed himself, and who had a hit list. you know, of others. And I think that forgiveness is really important in healing for her.

I mean, I think about that. You and I are both mothers. I cannot truly imagine anything worse in this life than losing your child. I just can't. I can't imagine it. And so, I could imagine that for her to move forward, that's something she has to do, like, in order to literally be able to live her life. You know, one other piece in talking about her strength, something that struck me, and I'm sure we'll talk about it a lot of people listening to this. She had had such a hard time having Daniel in the first place.

She did.

She said she lost 3 babies before. She lost another baby afterward. I mean, in every sense, this was her miracle baby. And that touches a— strikes a chord with so many people who go through that, right?

He really was her miracle child. And he was such a good child. You know, from everything I've heard, you know, he was in college, and he—

his faith was really important to him, and his family was really important to him.

His friends were really important to him.

One thing I want to touch on before we go into the investigation and the manhunt, there was a moment in there when she was talking to you, and she said something occurred to her that this could be because of her, because of her job. And it kind of speaks to this larger picture. Obviously, this is a much— this is the worst-case scenario, a much more almost dramatic outcome. But a lot of times, moms, you kind of fight with, okay, Do I do this job, this very, very high-profile, high-power, demands a lot of me job while mothering my kids? What does that look like? And so I can't imagine what that felt like for her to go through losing a child, but then realize, oh my God, could this in some way have been because of me?

It's awful, right? I mean, it's just, it's just so awful. It's, it's obviously not her fault in any way, shape, or form, but you probably, I would imagine, would have some of that guilt. You know, it would be hard not to. That, wow, it's because of this life that I chose that now my son is no longer here. But she told me a story about how Daniel, you know, when she was deciding what to do, and he said, Mom, take— you need to do this.

Wow.

And he was a little kid at the time, right? Like 10 years old?

Yeah.

So, she had his blessing, you know, that she needed to do this. And, you know, and I say to my kids sometimes, if they're ever complaining, if I'm on the road or whatever, I say, well, do you want me to leave my job? Or do you want me to not do this job anymore? And every single time, it's, keep doing your job.

Yeah.

You know, it's never, no, you should quit. It's, no, you should keep doing it.

Absolutely. You know, I had to come up with a way, once my oldest daughter got old enough to realize, like, Mommy's leaving, a way to kind of explain to her what I was doing, right? So, we bought— there's this Daniel Tiger book that says, grown-ups come back. And so, you know, I read that to her.

So cute!

It's so cute. There's, like, a little song that goes with it. But— and I leave them— little mommy notes, like notes to read at bedtime. But I, but I do say to my girls, like, mommy helps people. Mommy helps tell people stories, right? Mommy helps people understand what's going on in the world, like those types of things. And, you know, and certainly for Judge Salas, I mean, there is a tremendous sense of purpose to what she's doing. And I think that kids absolutely pick that up. I think that kids can really feel that even from a young age.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I mean, you know, when you rise to the level of a federal judge, I mean, that is an extremely important role.

Yes.

And you are, you know, you are serving your country. It's a very large purpose, and one she enjoys greatly, and made that decision after Daniel died to go back to that role. And on a lighter note, she was the presiding judge on the Teresa and Joe Giudice divorce. from The Real Housewives of New Jersey. Remember when they—

Andrea, you know, as soon as I saw that in your story, I was like, this would go in Andrea's story. Because I— you love Housewives. We love Housewives, of course. But yes, we all remember that case if you watch The Housewives.

We all remember it very well.

And when I saw that, I said, oh, wow. What an incredibly small world that she would be the judge presiding over that case that we all know.

I know. And it all started— I remember when I started watching Real Housewives of New Jersey, and Teresa was still on, She's the table flipper.

Oh, yeah.

'Cause who could forget that at the christening? But she's waving around the big wads of cash in the furniture store, and I was like, oh, boy. World of show, right? And now, and Joe was— they both served time, Teresa and Joe. And that was at— Judge Salas made that decision, that call.

Oh, my gosh. How stress— like we said, hundreds of people come through a courtroom. You never know who's going to come through your courtroom, including one of the Real Housewives. And her husband. Going back to the early days of that investigation, investigators had to consider whether there were 3 people being targeted, right? Like the judge, her husband possibly, maybe Daniel. They had to go down so many different rabbit holes, like talking to Daniel's friends, trying to figure out everything.

And also Mark, her husband, is a— was a defense attorney. You know, he could have a client that was disgruntled. You know, you just don't know. I think the prevailing thought was that it was Judge Salas, but they don't know.

Of course. Of course. I want to ask— I want to ask about Mark, her husband. How is he doing now?

Mark survived. He had a number of surgeries. At the time of our show, there was some consideration that he might do an interview, but then it was decided he just wasn't, you know, doing well enough. But, but they They are— they are still together. You know, something like this could tear a couple apart. From what I understand, they have just an incredible relationship, um, that this has brought them closer together.

It's truly miraculous. It really is. Um, so, I mean, they're exhausting every lead they can. They have nothing, essentially. And then comes this phone call from California. When we come back, we've got an extra clip of Judge Solis reflecting on parenting and Hey guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down Podcast.

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So this was really one of those all hands on deck type of investigations. Because, I mean, just the scene itself, it's a— it's chaos, right? But I couldn't imagine that it just really put a lot of fear into the legal community as a whole. When you talk about somebody in her position, she's targeted, nobody knows why, and the guy is still out there.

I'm sure most of the community probably believed quickly that, you know, this shooting was due to the judge's job. You know, I think that's probably what most people would surmise, right? And so law enforcement immediately had to, you know, really think about, uh-oh, you know, who did this? Could there be other targets? Is this because of a case? Is someone else next? And, you know, they did end up finding, um, Den Hollander with a hit list. So, you know, there were other people on that list. And he— and then, of course, they discovered that he had killed the lawyer in, uh, California, Mark Angelucci.

Let's talk about Mark Angelucci. Um, a men's rights activist. I have to admit, I'd never heard of such, uh, before watching this episode. Tell me— tell me about that.

It's men who feel that they are not properly represented in the court system, among other things. But they feel that there is this injustice toward men when it comes to, say, custody of children in a divorce, things like that. The draft, you know, as we discussed.

I have to ask, Andrea, what was it like? I mean, it was interesting that you inserted that the SPLC, Southern Poverty Law Center, classified them— I don't remember the exact words, but basically as a group that didn't like women.

And yeah, and that's the problem, right? Is that, you know, you could say that there's a bunch of women haters in there, and I think there are certainly some. And then I think some people are really just trying to make sure that men are properly represented in custody cases and that they're being treated fairly. So I don't think we can, you know, use a broad brush that that, you know, all these men are bad or anything like that. I don't think it's quite that black and white.

Of course. Well, I have to ask about a little behind the scenes. I mean, walking into— you talked to 2 of Mark Angelucci's friends, who are also leaders, members and leaders in this group. Those could have potentially been really interesting interviews to walk into, right? To put it lightly. What were those interviews like speaking with people who were leaders of this men's rights group?

Well, because it's, you know, it is a really fine line because you're trying to sort of figure out where they fall. And we talked about the, you know, not having the broad brush, right? So, you know, where, where, where do they fall on the spectrum?

Of course. Well, I'm glad that you had those interviews because I mean, just, I think for me, just seeing their interactions with you, seeing that they were respectful and I mean, you know what I mean? You saying, hey, people say that you're a woman haters group. What do you say to that essentially? And getting him to kind of explain. I'm glad that you did, that you pressed them a little bit and we listen to people and there we go.

Exactly.

But you mentioned Royden Hollander. I mean, I think one of the most shocking parts to me was to find out that this man had been on TV, on national TV.

Colbert.

He was on Colbert Report. He was on TV. I mean, talking, espousing his views. That was wild to me.

I mean, it was so silly. Like the Colbert one was kind of making fun of him. And that one was about, what was it, ladies' night that they got they got like cheaper or free admission.

Yes.

Yes.

He was like, that was an unfair thing.

Like, I mean, oh my gosh, please. There are bigger things in the world to worry about than that.

Really?

Truly?

Yes.

So many larger things. But it was just interesting to see that. I mean, that he was in a more serious setting too, talking about some of the lawsuits that he filed and some of the cases that he'd done, actually speaking like on a news program. Um, that, that almost gave me chills. Like, there's this— that he was just out there.

He was unwell. You know, he was obviously— it seems like everything triggered him involving women. And he's, you know, probably rolling in his grave right now, the fact that 2 women are opining about him right now. You know?

Exactly.

Like, his problems. Yeah, he had big problems. Big problems, Roy Den Hollander.

Absolutely. You know, I want to ask about this notion of justice, because that's always something that, you know, when we speak with families, we ask, what does justice look like? What are they hoping to see? It's not often, it's really not often in our Dateline cases that we have somebody who dies by suicide before ever going to trial, right? It happens, of course, but not often. I wonder how that sits with the judge. Of course, she's forgiven him now. But I just wonder how that sits with those who are left behind, and who loved the victims in this case.

Yeah, I know.

It's always tricky when, you know, it's kind of like death row too, right? Someone is executed and they're gone. At least they went, you know, probably went through a trial or something. But I've always wondered about that. Does it make things easier if the person's just gone? Mm-hmm.

You know?

And then you don't have to think about them sitting in a prison cell, that they're alive, that they're out there, that, you know, in some ways, could it be better if they're gone? Or is that bad that they didn't face their crimes?

I mean, so many families say that preparing for a trial is— it's emotionally heavy, right? Because you have to relive so much again. You have to listen to testimony. Yes. And the waiting and the delays and the hearings and all of those types of things. But at the end of the day, I mean, people do talk about the fact that at a trial, things come out. Right? And maybe if you had burning questions or something, something comes out and kind of helps give some understanding, or at least some facts or something that they'd been searching for. So, I could certainly see it going both ways, though a trial is difficult.

It's like there are sort of maybe benefits to both. If someone's— someone who has carried out this horrific act to one of your family members or your friends, like, that they're just gone. And then there's— Well, I wanna see him— I wanna see him pay. Exactly.

It's— there's nothing easy about any of it. I mean, I think that that goes back to our true hero in all of this, the person who, just watching this hour, Andrea, Judge Salas will stay with me, like, in my mind, just thinking about her, knowing her. I just felt for her so much and was inspired by her strength. So, I could imagine that you sitting down with her, talking to her, I mean, there's always a rapport that comes when you sit down and speak with somebody. But I understand that you guys, Talk to me about just your interactions with her and the bond that you all formed by talking.

I mean, that was, like, one of the most powerful interviews I've ever done, for sure. And then I got to talk to her again for After the Verdict, our other wonderful Dateline podcast franchise. I always enjoy talking to her. She's just so wise, and she is a special woman. Truly.

And groundbreaking. I mean, you talk about that in the story, but like the first Latina to serve as a federal judge in New Jersey. She was appointed back in 2011 by President Obama. And you gave her something, right?

Didn't you?

Yeah. Yeah.

I was like, I was— I had this like thing from my mom in my wallet that said, I'm always with you, and it had an angel on it. And I just like felt compelled to give it to her after the interview. And so she— now she carries it around.

Oh, that's beautiful. I know that touched her so much.

Yeah. She's just like, you know, I've never done anything like that before. I don't know. It was just something about her that, you know, I felt like, here, here, have something.

To have that. I know. But what a beautiful connection the two of you have now.

Yeah.

She's—

I—

if she's listening, I'd love to get together with her and, you know, see her again.

Of course.

She also, You know, she— we talked, Blaine, about how people turn these horrible tragedies into advocacy, something that they can do to help others. And she has done that. She's been really on the forefront of protecting judges and their personal information. That has been, like, a big cause of hers, you know, to make sure that another— this doesn't happen to another judge, because it has happened to other judges. And so she really has worked to make sure that that information, that personal information doesn't get out because it was so easy for Den Hollander—

To find.

To find it.

Her home.

And so that has been a big mission of hers. And then also she has started food pantries. It's called Danny's Pantry. And so of course it was, you know, created in memory of her son Danny. So it started in 2024. inside the federal courthouse in Newark.

Wow.

And that is where she serves as a US District Judge. And that was around the 4th anniversary of Danny's murder. And then they— there are now 6 Danny's Pantries locations in each of New Jersey's 3 federal courthouses.

Wow.

Yeah.

And these are food pantries that anybody can go to if they need to, to get—

Yeah. If they need, if they need help. And there's also one at the— there's that in Union City, Cincinnati, and there's actually one in Hawaii.

Wow.

Yeah.

Amazing. Yeah.

It's for families, for people in, you know, or people in need.

Absolutely. Well, you spoke about the second conversation that you had with Judge Salas. Let's listen to a little bit of that. It was for our Dateline podcast after the verdict. And here's some of that conversation.

I remember, not just me, but my crew, my producer, you know, we— you left that interview, and we're all just like, whoa, you know, we need to focus on, like, what matters, not the stupid things.

Right?

'Cause we're all one tragedy away from going, why did I care about that?

There's so many moments now, in retrospect, that I wish I could have the wisdom that I have now. And when I was pushing him about grades, and, you know, there was a little bit of that, that I needed Daniel to— you know, I needed him to perform, and I needed him to do certain things. And all of that means nothing when we're talking about loving our children for who they are, the beauty that they are.

Yeah.

I think as parents, we put so much pressure on ourselves and on our children, and we're not in the present moment with them. You know, we're not really enjoying them. And I think that if we just learn to sort of slow down and enjoy the moment for what it is, not for what we want we expect it to be or want it to be, but for what it is.

Yeah.

God, we would enjoy each other and our comp— and this world so much more.

Oh gosh, I'm almost choked up listening to that. What a beautiful reminder. What a necessary reminder, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Because I think so many of us are moving so fast in world, uh, especially if you're working and doing the things that, um, it can be you can forget that. You can forget that sometimes.

Yeah.

To focus on that.

I get frazzled and then I'll, you know, be short with one of my kids or something, or, you know, they're interrupting me while I'm— and then, but I always make sure that I go find them afterwards and say, hey, you know what? I'm sorry. And I shouldn't have, you know, gotten short with you or whatever. And please forgive me. It was a stressful moment. You know?

Of course.

And they're like, okay.

Of course. Of course. Oh, but that's beautiful. I love that sentiment. And I'm glad that we shared that because I'm sure somebody listening Needed that reminder too.

I mean, I have to say that I'm impressed all the time with the people we interview and that we get to talk to, but she's like, just, wow, this woman is truly one of the most inspirational women that I've ever interviewed. And I remember leaving that interview just feeling like, you know, you need to just cherish every single moment you have with your children. That's what I think we all— the whole team that was there from Dateline just kind of— we were all like, oh my gosh. You know, we worry about silly things when we should be focused on, you know, the important stuff.

On what matters.

And what matters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's an important reminder. And coming up next, we're going to answer some of your questions from social media. Welcome back. And Andrea, as you might expect, there are plenty of comments, plenty of questions about your episode on social media. So let's go to some of those if we can. Okay, so Andrea, here's a question from @LivAndTori, who says, why were there no security cameras at their front door and around their house? I mean, I guess the question is, do we know if there were security cameras around the house or in the neighborhood that possibly helped?

We go back to— this is COVID. Everyone's getting deliveries all the time. And so, I don't think that there was a— even if they had cameras, I think they still would have answered the door.

Sure.

You know, because that's what people do, right? They see a delivery man at the door, and they answer the door. I actually don't let my children answer the door for delivery people.

Same.

I say, just leave it. And you don't even need to go to the door. Just or call me if the person is not going away and they—

Absolutely.

You know, they need more information or something. But I think that's a good lesson as we—

It is.

You know, continue down this delivery—

Road.

Path.

Road.

Yes.

I know, just to be careful.

Yeah, absolutely. We kind of do this unless we're expecting somebody like, you know, like grandma's coming over or somebody specific is coming over, then like, don't answer the door.

'Cause who knows?

Yeah.

And I think the other piece of it too is that yes, this person dressed up as a delivery person, And during those days in COVID, I remember packages would come, and I'd forget what I ordered. Like, there was just so much stuff just coming to the house because you needed whatever it was. And so, yeah, it's so easy to let your guard down, especially during that time.

Yeah. And you're not thinking it's a, you know, it's summer, it's— they've just had a really fun weekend. It's, you know, that wasn't the mindset.

Of course.

That, oh, wow, there's a killer at the door. Like, no, they didn't. They clearly did not think that.

Of course. Um, well, here's one from, uh, Lori Diane Pietrantonio. I hope I'm saying that right. Uh, and Lori says, I have never commented one way or another on a Dateline story, but I've watched thousands, in fact, and this one stuck with me. She writes, Your Honor, you're one of by far the classiest, most humble, and genuine people I've seen in years. God bless you for not letting this define you and for having the ability to forgive.

Mm-hmm.

We can all take a page from your story and do better. Thank you for sharing.

Oh, I love that. It's so true. Yeah. Really glad she wrote that.

Beautiful. Here's another one from Lynette Tankers Leiden. I hope I'm saying that one right. And she writes, listen to this woman's words and try doing what she says. Surround yourself with people you love and trust, people who are willing to listen and support you through the pain and suffering. Losing loved ones is so hard. Sending you a hug. And I mean, we've talked about this, but just the bond that the judge and her husband had. This is an unimaginable loss.

Yeah.

And it seems that that bond really just strengthened through this.

It really did. And I think she is— she just saw such an outpouring of love on a larger, even larger scale, you know, from her colleagues, from the country, from just everybody who— whose heart just broke for Judge Zelis.

Well, this was a beautiful episode. It's— I mean, I agree with our viewer who wrote in, this will stay with me for a long time. That was a really just a beautiful interview. interview. I'm so glad that she spoke because we never know, right? Like, we pursue interviews, and I'm so glad that she did it. And yeah, and that we did it.

We love—

we love Judge Sellis.

Yes. Well, thank you, Andrea. I loved this episode, and I love talking Dateline with you. Thank you. Thanks, Blaine. And that is it for Talking Dateline this week. Thank you so much for joining us and for listening. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can always DM us your audio or your video questions on social media @DatelineNBC, or you can leave us a voicemail. That number is 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here on the podcast. And of course, you can watch the video version of Talking Dateline on Peacock or YouTube, or subscribe to the NBC News app.

Also, if you want to check out our bonus podcast series, After the Verdict, where we revisit Dateline cases and catch up with people we've met, like Judge Salas, that's available for Dateline Premium subscribers. And while you're at it, check out Lester Holt's brand-new podcast series, Before and After. In each episode, Lester will bring you a deeply personal conversation with someone whose life was transformed in an instant and explore what it takes to endure the unimaginable. The first episode drops next Monday wherever you get your podcasts, but is available now for subscribers. See you Fridays on Dateline NBC.

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