Transcript of Verdict in UNC student trial. Influencer's alleged conspiracy to murder. Plus, handwriting analysis.

Hey, good morning. It's the start of another workday for the Dateline team.

A couple people are flagging this from the West Coast.

Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news.

So he was always the suspect?

And what did you say the motive is?

They believe that boyfriend was the mastermind.

Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Jose Diaz-Balart, NBC News anchor and the host of Dateline en Español, filling in for Andrea Canning. It's October 29th, and here's what's on our docket. In a Los Angeles civil courtroom, 5 months after Gabby Gonzalez, a TikTok influencer, was arrested for allegedly conspiring to murder her ex-boyfriend, he tells his story for the first time.

Jack did seem nervous. He had a lot on the line.

We'll also have an update for you from the trial of the former Massachusetts police officer accused of murdering pregnant teacher's aide Sandra Birchmore. And details from the sentencing of the 3 Alexander brothers, once known for their lavish lifestyles, now facing life in prison for sex trafficking. They came face to face with some of their victims this week.

One woman made this so, so poignant statement: I carry a quiet funeral for the person I might have become had this not happened to me.

Plus, handwriting analysis. We'll talk to an expert about whether it belongs in the courtroom.

I would consider the examination of handwriting As being a bit more subjective than many people realize.

But before all that, we're heading to a North Carolina courtroom for the final chapter in a case that has hung over the college town of Chapel Hill for nearly 15 years, the murder of 19-year-old student Faith Hedgepeth. On the night of September 6th, 2012, Faith, a sophomore at the University of North Carolina, went to a nightclub with her roommate, Karina Rosario. The 2 women returned to their apartment in the early morning hours, but Karina left to visit another friend. When she came back a few hours later, she found Faith beaten to death in her bed. For 9 years, the case went unsolved. Then in 2021, investigators arrested Miguel Salguero Olivares, a man with no criminal record and no known connection to Faith. Prosecutors indicted him on several charges, including first-degree murder and rape. They said his DNA and fingerprints had been detected at the crime scene. He pleaded not guilty. This month, he finally went to trial. The prosecution called 23 witnesses, but it wasn't until they delivered their closing arguments that they offered the jury an answer to a lingering question. What allegedly drove Salguero-Olivares to kill Faith Hedgepeth? Dateline producer Mike Nardi has been following the trial closely.

Mike, great to see you.

Thanks for having me, José.

Mike, you've been in North Carolina covering this trial, and you're there right now. Give us a quick reminder of what the prosecution alleges tied Salguero-Olivares to the crime.

Investigators found him using genetic genealogy. Now, Salguero-Olivares, like Faith, lived in Chapel Hill. He was 19 at the time of the murder and working at a local restaurant. Prosecutors said his DNA matched the DNA found on the— suspected murder weapon, which was a rum bottle found tangled up in Faith's comforter on the bed. And they also found his DNA in samples taken from a rape kit that was done on Faith's body.

The prosecution's final witness was the lead investigator, and he suggested one other way Miguel could be traced back to the crime scene.

Right. One of the last things the prosecutors presented and had the investigator talk about was a white takeout bag that was found on the bed next to Faith's body. And on that bag, there was a handwritten message message that read, I'm not stupid, bitch jealous. So the prosecution wanted to link that handwriting on that bag to the defendant. And so what they had the lead investigator do is talk about a video jail call that Salguero-Olivares had made, uh, to a friend. The audio wasn't working, the connection was bad. So at one point, Salguero-Olivares holds up a handwritten note, and the note says, Give me your number, I'll call you. Um, which isn't important. What's important, and what prosecutors wanted the jury to see, is that that handwritten note that he held up was very similar in their mind to the writing that was on the takeout bag.

But that video actually might have backfired on the prosecution because of what the defense did next. What did they do?

Well, the defense pointed out that the person Salguero-Oliveras was speaking to was a dear friend of his, and she has since passed away since that call. And so what they did is they had the entire video call played before the jury. And you could see that this young woman and the defendant obviously cared for each other.

What a big surprise.

Damn, I was like, who's calling me? I haven't seen you in forever. Yeah, I wish I could hear you. Hey, I love you.

And at one point during the call, Salguero-Oliveras, in the courtroom, begins to start crying, audibly sobbing. So, I think it gave jurors a sense of who he was outside the courtroom, um, as a friend that people cared about, someone who was had feelings.

That attempt to humanize Salguero-Olivares is something the defense has been doing from the beginning of the trial. Their main argument to the jury is that Salguero-Olivares and Faith might have known each other, that it's true his DNA was at the scene, but what's to say they didn't have some kind of consensual encounter?

That's right. You know, the defense vigorously cross-examined the prosecution's DNA expert, not to get her to say that it wasn't the defendant's DNA, but they got her to admit that she couldn't say when that DNA was left on Faith. It could have been there for days, as a matter of fact. The defense also argued that perhaps investigators had been a little sloppy in how they processed the crime scene. But, you know, the biggest question they raised for the jury is about Faith's roommate, Karina. She was one of the first witnesses that testified, and she was very, you know, forthcoming in that she had been drinking heavily that night, and she said she left Faith alone in the apartment. A friend picked her up. up. But that friend testified that he saw something that looked like blood on Karina's finger when he picked her up. And the defense wanted the jury to ask themselves if maybe there was more to her story.

So, Mike, who did the defense call when it came time to present their case?

Well, they didn't call anybody.

Nobody?

Not one witness. The defense did not call one single witness. And, you know, that's not uncommon. That does happen. But this was in stark contrast to what they'd promised the jury in opening statements.

So, that brings us to last Thursday when closing arguments began. And Mike, this was really interesting. The prosecution offered jurors a possible motive for Faith's murder for the first time.

Right, right. The prosecutors explained that there had been a cookout at Faith's apartment complex that night, and they believed that Salguero-Olivares might have been there and may have encountered Faith and Karina when they returned home from the nightclub. So, their theory was that Salguero-Olivares may have approached them 2 women and was trying to flirt with them. We know that Karina was very drunk. They wondered if Faith may have been trying to protect Karina, and Faith may have rejected him or said something that embarrassed him.

It's not a leap to suggest that he came up to try to engage, and Faith said, what, are you stupid? Can you not see she is sick? Go away.

So the prosecutor's suggestion was that that could explain the message on the takeout bag. I'm not stupid, bitch. Jealous.

Now, we should say prosecutors admitted they couldn't prove that happened.

Right, right. No witnesses placed the defendant at that cookout.

But prosecutors told the jury that even if we never really know why Faith was killed, the forensic evidence showed who did it.

Exactly. And they told jurors that when Salguero-Oliveras was first questioned by investigators, a moment caught on body cam, he denied knowing Faith or ever having sex with her.

Do you know this girl?

No.

You don't know her? No.

Why would he do that? They wondered if he just hooked up with her but hadn't killed her.

Mike, then it came time for the defense closing arguments, and they reiterated what they'd said from the beginning, that Faith and Salguero-Olivares could have had a consensual encounter.

Yeah, and they had an explanation for why Salguero-Olivares denied having sex with Faith at the start. He didn't remember her.

Why wouldn't he be going out and maybe sometimes Sometimes having too much to drink, forgetting things, forgetting encounters. Why wouldn't he sometimes have an intimate encounter with somebody, maybe even on a one-time basis, and not tell anybody else about it? He was a teenage boy.

So, the defense said investigators, uh, sort of had tunnel vision and focused only on Salguero Olivares once they identified him through DNA, and then tried to make the rest of the evidence fit They have not proved their case.

Hold them to their burden. He's not guilty. So the jury got the case on Thursday, and Mike, by Friday, we had a verdict?

Yeah, it took around 6 hours of total deliberation over those 2 days.

Take us inside the courtroom for the moment when that verdict was read.

So just before they returned, the judge warned everyone in the courtroom to remain composed. Then Salguero-Oliveras was asked to stand up and face the jurors. And then the clerk read the verdict.

We, the 12 members of the jury, we now find the defendant to be count 1, guilty of first-degree murder. And Mike, immediately after the verdict was read, Faith's family got to address the court. Her mother, Connie Hedgepeth, spoke first.

You know, it was incredibly touching and emotional, and she even expressed sympathy for Salguero-Olivares' family.

I knew that I had to forgive, and I do forgive. My heart aches for his family. We try to raise our children the best we know.

It just seemed like it was such a senseless and cruel act.

Faith's father also spoke.

He did?

He—

he, just like Faith's mom, said he had forgiven Salguero-Olivares?

Our hearts are ripped out, and it's like there's this hollowness there, you know? We can't fill it. But The God I serve tells me that I have to forgive, um, the person who did this.

And after hearing from Faith's family, pretty quickly, the judge handed down the sentence.

This jury having found you guilty of first-degree murder, this court will sentence you to life without the possibility of parole.

Salguero-Oliveras was also ordered to register as a sex offender for life. And his attorneys have given notice of appeal.

And Mike, the judge, Keith O'Gregory, also had some powerful words about the crime itself.

He did.

And he talked about the brutality of Faith's murder and how difficult it was to comprehend why someone would do something like this.

But he was also struck by the forgiveness, Faith's family's forgiveness.

Yeah. And I think that really stayed with him. He addressed it directly.

The grace that you have bestowed and shown me, as a judge just reminds me that I will continue to the best of my ability to do always the right thing sitting up here. And your ability to forgive just gives me the ability to say, yes, Keith, there is still goodness in mankind.

Mike, thanks for staying on top of this case and bringing us all the details from the courtroom. Really appreciate it.

Thanks, Jose.

If the Faith Hedgepeth case has piqued your interest in handwriting analysis, stick around. We'll be talking to an expert. And coming up, a TikTok influencer and the former boy band member she's accused of trying to have killed face off in court. Back in May, news broke that influencer Gabby Gonzalez, known for her posts about lifestyle and motherhood, had been arrested.

LA prosecutors accusing a TikTok star of trying to hire somebody off the dark web to kill her ex.

That ex was Jack Avery. former boy band singer and the father of Gabby's child. The couple had been mired in an ugly custody dispute for years. Prosecutors accused Gabby of conspiring with her own father and a different ex-boyfriend to seek out a hitman to murder Jack. All 3 pleaded not guilty and were released on bond. Last week, Jack and Gabby came face to face in a Los Angeles courtroom. Dateline booking producer Caitlin Cutt was there and is here to bring us the very latest. Caitlin, it's great seeing you. How are you?

Hi, Jose. I'm great. How are you?

Doing great, thanks. So let's rewind a little bit here. Paint a picture for us of who these people are.

Jack Avery is 27 now. He's a former member of a boy band called Why Don't We. He's also working on launching a solo career. He posts a lot on TikTok.

What is up, guys? It's Jack Avery.

I just had about 180 milligrams of caffeine and I'm absolutely Ripping through the state right now.

Uh, Jack dated Gabby Gonzalez in the late 2010s when they were both teenagers. They were not together very long, but they did have a child together in 2019.

And Gabby Gonzalez got famous on TikTok.

Yeah, right now she's 25 years old. She's originally from Florida. She has hundreds of thousands of followers on TikTok and Instagram. She posts glamorous content, you know, she does stuff in front of waterfalls and gardening and the wind blowing through her hair, and it's all very scenic. You know, it's a lifestyle account. Just wanted to share some of my rooftop I am now by myself again, and it has been incredibly empowering, incredibly hopeful. And I don't know, I, I just— I learned that I just need me.

By 2021, Jack and Gabby were in the midst of this tense custody battle. How did things end up in this alleged murder plot?

According to the felony complaint, prosecutors allege that Gabby plotted with her father, Francisco Gonzalez, Who's a successful attorney in Florida, as well as her former boyfriend, Kai Cordrey, to find someone to commit murder. Prosecutors say that Francisco, Gabby's dad, was the moneybags of this operation, and that in early 2021, he transferred $10,000 to Kai for the purposes of hiring that hitman. They say that in May of 2021, Kai signed up for a dark web murder-for-hire site under the alias LizardKing69. And he asked for someone to kill Jack by, quote, whatever method was easiest. And over the course of the next few months, prosecutors allege that he transferred thousands of dollars to accounts associated with the murder-for-hire site.

So, Kai thought he was working with a hitman, but there's a twist here.

He was actually in contact with an undercover FBI agent posing as a hitman on the website. And in September of 2021, prosecutors alleged that the undercover agent spoke with Kai over the phone to discuss the scheme. During that phone call, prosecutors say Kai confirmed that Jack Avery was the target of the plot, and they discussed payment and proof of death, which in this case was specifically a severed finger.

Oh my gosh. So far you've mentioned Francisco and Kai. How can prosecutors be sure Gabby was involved in this?

Hmm.

Well, they say Kai told the undercover agent Gabby wanted the job done. Now, she never spoke to the fake hitman herself, as far as we know, but they say her dad Francisco did.

As we know, Jack Avery is alive and well. The scheme never went anywhere. Over 3 years passed between those alleged phone calls and the arrests. What happened?

You know, it's a good question. Um, we don't know for sure what took so long, but there's a bit more of that timeline leading up to the arrests. So in October of 2022, which is almost a year after Gabby's dad allegedly spoke to the hitman slash agent, prosecutors say Gabby spoke with Kai over the phone in a recorded call and expressed concerns about the plot being exposed. We don't know who recorded that call, but a month later, Gabby's home was raided by the FBI. Then there was another gap before authorities made arrests. Once the criminal case gets going, I think we're going to find out a little bit more, uh, regarding the investigation.

And as we mentioned, the 3 alleged co-conspirators pleaded not guilty. They're out on bail. While the criminal case has been making its way through the court system, custody proceedings have also been ongoing in civil court. And that brings us to this custody hearing last week. Set the scene for us. Jack Avery and Gabby Gonzalez sitting just feet from each other. What was the mood like inside the courtroom?

You know, it's a civil courtroom, right? So it's tinier than these bigger criminal courtrooms that you and I go to sometimes. It was incredibly intimate. Like you say, they were feet apart. They never looked at each other. Gabby was very stoic. She didn't offer up a lot of emotion throughout really most of the process. Jack did seem nervous. Uh, he had a lot on the line.

What was the purpose of the hearing?

Jack already had a restraining order against Gabby. He wanted the judge to extend it. He also asked for sole custody of their daughter, who is 7 years old as of now.

It was really interesting, Caitlin, because it's the first time we've really gotten to hear from Jack Avery since the arrests in May.

What did you learn? You're right, it is the first time. Jack testified that the FBI contacted him in 2021 to inform him that he was being targeted by a hitman and somebody who had hired this hitman. And he testified that after the FBI told him about the alleged plot, he was left afraid with severe anxiety and panic disorder. He talked about every time he went to go visit his daughter, he wasn't sure if this was going to be the moment that somebody was going to try to You know, make an attempt on his life. It was really sad, actually, to hear him talk about all of this going on while he was just trying to get access to his kid.

Caitlin, we're talking, what, 5 years with that uncertainty?

Yeah. I think that, you know, the other anxiety that was running through my mind when he was going over this is, you know, you're worried that somebody is going to take a hit out on you. What if your child is with you when this happens? I mean, that's horrifying. It's a horrifying thing to contemplate.

They, they didn't tell him that the hitman was one of them so that he didn't have to worry about it?

He was just told they had intercepted, uh, requests to take a hit out on him, but they couldn't guarantee that whoever had taken this hit out wasn't contacting other people.

And so, Caitlin, there were some other witnesses who testified about what it was like being around Gabby at the time of the alleged plot.

Right. A former boyfriend of Gabby's named Cody Clayburn took the stand. He testified that he met Gabby in June of 2021. They were living in Hawaii at the time. Cody said he didn't know anything about the alleged plot until the FBI raided their home. He testified that he confronted Gabby after the raid and asked her what was going on. He said that she told him Kai, who was her ex-boyfriend at this point, was, quote, obsessed with her and wanted to help her get rid of Jack.

That's interesting. I mean, could it be a glimpse of what Gabby might try to say at the criminal trial, that she's not to blame for any of it? Did Gabby testify at the hearing?

No, she did not. Her lawyer informed the judge that she decided not to testify.

So what did the judge decide at the end of the hearing?

The judge decided to grant Jack a 5-year restraining order against Gabby, plus sole physical custody of their daughter.

Any comment from Jack or Gabby afterwards?

No, Gabby did not issue any comments. Uh, Jack did speak to Rolling Stone and said, quote, I'm overwhelmed and happy at the same time.

So, Caitlin, what's the status of the criminal case?

The next hearing on the criminal case is scheduled for November 18th, but there's still a really, really long road ahead before any trial happens.

Caitlin, thank you so much for these updates.

Oh, thank you so much for having me, Jose.

Up next, we've got the latest from the trial of the former police officer accused of murdering pregnant teacher's aide And details from the sentencing of luxury real estate brokers and now convicted sex traffickers, the Alexander brothers. Plus, forgeries and ransom notes. What investigators can learn from handwriting analysis.

Welcome back.

Here with some updates on 2 stories we've been watching closely is Dateline producer Sue Simpson. Sue, great seeing you. How are you?

I'm fine, thanks, and thanks for having me.

Up first, we're checking in at the trial of Matthew Farwell in Massachusetts. He's the former Stoughton police officer accused of killing 23-year-old pregnant teacher's aide Sandra Birchmore back in 2021. Farwell says he didn't kill her, has pleaded not guilty, saying Sandra wasn't murdered, she died by suicide. We've talked these past few weeks about the prosecution's case against the former cop, Sue. Remind us what they're alleging.

Sure, sure. They are alleging that Farwell went to Sandra's apartment, killed her, and staged her murder to look like suicide. They say Farwell killed Sandra to prevent her from disclosing their years-long sexual relationship, which they say began when she was a minor, just 15 years old. Farwell has denied having sex with Sandra when she was underage.

This week, the prosecution called their final witnesses, including someone we've all been curious about. The man they say was the father of Sandra's unborn child. Remember, prosecutors have argued that Farwell believed he was the father, and that fed into his motive for killing Sandra. But DNA testing after Sandra's death revealed the father was someone else. The prosecution called this man to the stand. Sue, what was that moment like?

Well, it was—

it was quite a memorable moment, José. His name is Jason Pickard. He's 37 years old now. And according to our affiliate, NBC 10, when Pickard walked by the defense table, Farwell gave him an up-and-down look, a sort of sizing-him-up look. We learned from Pickard's testimony that the 2 men had never met until that moment in court.

And Sue, this could have been a tricky moment for the prosecution. Here was a witness who could have undermined their theory about Farwell's alleged motive.

That's right, José. It's possible the prosecution, though, wanted to put him up before the defense did. But he also told the jury that through his own relationship with Sandra, he had a front-row seat to Sandra's relationship with Farwell.

How did he say that he met Sandra?

He told the jury that Sandra reached out to him through social media in December 2019, when he was working as an Army recruiter. And they talked about Sandra pursuing a career, a possible career with the Army. Their relationship, though, quickly turned into something else. And they started seeing each other and having sex.

So Pickard testified that about a year into their on-again, off-again relationship, Sandra texted him that she was pregnant. How did he react to that?

Well, he replied, congratulations, with a question mark at the end. And she replied, I'm trying to get the father to sit down. And he replied, me? And she said, nope, we weren't in my fertile period. Pickard testified that Birchmore always told them Farwell was the father.

So, did prosecutors ask Pickard what he knew about Sandra's relationship with Farwell?

Yes. Yes. He was asked about that. And he testified that Sandra told him the relationship began when she was a minor. And he said he encouraged her to report that. Prosecutors asked him why he didn't report that himself. And he said he was afraid to. He essentially said it would ruin his family, his career, and that he was respecting Sandra's request not to say anything.

The prosecution rested its case on Wednesday, and we will be back with the defense's case next week. Next, we are heading to a Manhattan federal courthouse for the highly anticipated sentencing of Oren Tal and Alain Alexander, 3 wealthy brothers who were convicted earlier this year of sex trafficking and other related crimes going back 20 years. So it's been quite a stunning fall from grace for them.

A stunning fall. It really has been. So just a little background here, José. 2 of the brothers, 39-year-old Oren and 40-year-old Tal, were luxury brokers making millions of dollars selling expensive properties in New York and Miami. The other brother and twin to Oren, 39-year-old Alon, worked in the family's private security business. But all 3 of them were well off and they moved in really exclusive social circles. In a sentencing memorandum, prosecutors said the brothers exploited their wealth, influence, and connections to target their victims and called them serial rapists. They estimate the brothers raped or sexually assaulted as many as 70 women.

So the trial suit was 7 months ago. Heading into the sentencing on Tuesday, prosecutors asked the judge to sentence the brothers to life, saying that's what the scale and severity of their crimes deserved. But before the judge ruled, she got to hear from several of the brothers' victims?

That's right. And about a dozen women gave statements. They were incredibly powerful and emotional. One woman who went by a pseudonym and said she'd been raped by Tal Alexander in 2014 made this so, so poignant statement. I carry a quiet funeral, she said, in me for the person I might have become had this not happened to me. 2 other victims described the man as having inhuman eyes during the assaults. One felt like she was being mauled by animals. The other said looking at him, she saw monster black eyes. And some women said the brothers appeared to lack remorse throughout their 5-week trial earlier this year. And another noted that the brothers cannot even look us in the eye as we speak today.

Wow, Sue, that statement, I carry a quiet funeral in me for the person I might have become.

I know. I find that so moving.

What an extraordinary statement. Now, Sue, the brothers still maintain their innocence to this day. Did the brothers speak at all?

The 3 of them spoke. And all 3 of them asked for a lighter sentence and seemed to blame hookup and party culture for their behavior. Oren said that he'd built a new life and family. Tal expressed regret and asked the judge to consider the entirety of his life before deciding his sentence. And Alon was the last to speak. He insisted he was innocent.

So, Sue, what did the judge decide?

Well, she sentenced each of them to 30 years in prison, describing their conduct as monstrous.

Sue, it's great seeing you. Thanks for sharing these updates with us.

Nice to be here. Thank you.

For our final story, we wanted to take a closer look at something that got our attention at the Faith Hedgepeth trial. Handwriting analysis. As we talked about earlier, prosecutors argued that Miguel Salguero-Olivares' handwriting resembled the note scribbled on a takeout bag found next to Faith's body.

I think that there is evidence to show handwriting that was written by this defendant. All of these, including the writing on the bag, none of them are in cursive. They are all in block print handwriting.

It made us want to know, how often is handwriting analysis used at a trial? And how scientific is it really? Joining me now is John Osborne, a court-qualified forensic document examiner. John, great to see you.

Good to see you as well.

Forensic document examiner sounds so technical. How did you get into this kind of work?

Well, in my case, which is somewhat unusual, I began as an apprentice under my father in a family practice in which I was the 4th generation and began a training program towards obtaining certification in the field.

Whoa.

So, John, let's talk about handwriting analysts. How accurate are they?

Well, accuracy depends upon the adherence to standards. I would consider the examination of handwriting as being a bit more subjective than many people realize. Accuracy not only depends on training, but also in terms of experience. Uh, the more experience you have, the greater the accuracy becomes.

John, I was thinking about cases where handwriting analysis might come up, obviously forged documents, ransom notes. What are some of the more striking cases you've worked on in your career?

Over the course of a 42-year career, I worked the People versus Sante and Kenneth Kimes, who were accused of murder, a mother and son grifter team who had conspired to steal Or grift, uh, an older Manhattan socialite. I, uh, testified in, uh, the El Chapo case more recently. I worked, uh, the Robert Durst case, but most of the cases I deal with have to do with civil disputes, you know, a questioned will signature or, uh, the potential that a contract was altered, uh, or changed in some way nefariously.

So let's talk about how you do this analysis. Taking the Faith Hedgepeth case as an example, how would you go about trying to figure out if a suspect had written something left at a crime scene?

Well, you know, it's my understanding that this note was written on an unconventional surface, a paper bag. And then on top of that, it was all capital letters. It makes, uh, it very, very difficult to do. So what we're doing is Taking specimen writing from an individual for the purpose of comparative analysis so that we can determine whether or not the questioned writing is consistent in all respects with the known specimen writing.

John, when a person is asked to write something, how much weight can that document have when The person who's being asked to write knows that whatever they write will probably be used to compare and contrast with other writings.

And you're absolutely correct. And writings done specifically at request for the purpose of a, of a comparative analysis are the least desirable. But there's a protocol that we follow in order to collect those specimens, and it's not a 5-minute process where somebody's asked to write something 6 times on a single sheet of pad paper. It generally is a situation where a person is asked to write for between an hour and a half and 3 hours, or even more than that. In the case of the, of the Sante and Kenneth Keim prosecution, there was a total of 6 hours of writing, not all in one sitting, that were collected. in order to, uh, attempt to associate them with certain questioning writings in that case.

Fascinating. So, John, in the Faith Hedgepeth case, the bag was found by investigators 9 years before anyone was arrested. Doesn't 9 years change so many things in the handwriting aspect?

It depends on a number of circumstances. Injury, illness, age are all things that can affect writing.

John, fascinating stuff. Thank you so much for your time.

It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. But if you're in the mood for something spooky, don't forget to check out a whole new season of Morrison Mysteries. Keith reads tales by Edgar Allan Poe. Since it's Halloween, of course, they'd have to be mysterious. Suspenseful, perhaps a little creepy. Maybe a story about a man who pulled off the perfect murder until his guilty conscience slowly ate away at him. Or one about a black cat who crossed paths with the wrong killer. To get ad-free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. And remember, you can watch Dateline en Español, hosted by me, every Saturday on Telemundo, and streaming anytime on Peacock. Thank you for the privilege of your time. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, and Kiani Reed. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone Groth and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kuriloff. Production and fact-checking help by Carol Chen. Veronica Mazaika is our digital producer. Rick Kwan, our sound engineer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer, and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

Thanks very much.