Transcript of Talking Dateline: Blindsided

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I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Talking Dateline. This is a very unusual Talking Dateline. Normally, you would be having, you know, a couple of correspondents talking to each other about their experiences covering a story. But this time, I have what I consider to be the distinct honor to speak to a couple of our really—

Wow.

very awesome producers. Shane Bishop, a man I've been doing business with on Dateline for, gosh, how many years, Shane? Just about 30 years now, right?

Right.

And Brittany Morris, not as long, but it's been terrific as well.

So—

Thanks, Keith.

This time I get a chance to talk to the two of you about a story we have covered, and you have done most of the coverage, most of the work for quite a number of years. This may be a final chapter, may not be a final chapter. We'll see. But this is a story of Brenda Brandon Boudreaux. Brandon Boudreaux was a kind of a quasi-relative of a woman you know well. Perhaps you know her as Mommy Doomsday, but he knew her as Aunt Lolo. Lori Vallow, the infamous woman behind a number of murders, including her own children. If you haven't listened to the episode yet, you should go right now and do so, and then come on back and listen to my interview with Shane and Brittany. And later, we'll get your questions also from social media. This has been quite a saga. How many episodes, remind me, have we done on the Lori Vallow saga? I should say the Lori Vallow-Chad Daybell saga.

This is number 8. And I think every time for the last, what, 2 years, Brittany, when we've finished a screening of these pieces, our boss has asked, is that it? And yeah, I think maybe now it is, but it hasn't been before.

This is a very complicated tale. A tale that began years ago when we heard about some missing children and we made a sojourn to Hawaii to try to track down Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell. And then we heard increasingly strange things about what they were up to, what they believed. The idea that somehow Chad and Lori were gods who were going to lead the faithful to the end times and meet Jesus Christ. Lori Vallow was a goddess in her view. And so she believed that she had a responsibility to do whatever Chad decided. And he began to declare her children dark and then that they are zombies. And eventually they disappear. And when they're finally found, they've been buried in Chad Daybell's backyard. And along the way, a man named Brandon Boudreaux, who was married to the niece of Lori Vallow, Is told that his wife is leaving him. And then one day Brandon Boudreaux is in his car and he hears a pop and there's a shot that was obviously aimed at him, almost killed him. We now have to find out what happened to him, who took a shot at him, and he has to keep himself safe, he and his children.

And it becomes the adventure story of Brandon Boudreaux trying to survive, trying to keep his children safe in the face of what he considered to be terrible danger. Why has it been so long since between the events that he describes and our story now?

Well, I first met Brandon on, on his parents' porch in early 2020, and I've been knocking on his door and standing on his porch and sitting him down for about 6 and a half years asking him to talk to you. And now for the first time, he has done that simply because, A, all the criminal trials are over. Seemingly. And B, uh, he wrote a book called Unthinkable. So he sent me that book a few months ago, and my first reaction was, I don't want to do any more stories on Lori Vallow. And then we talked about it and decided that he had kind of an insider view that we hadn't heard yet. And, uh, he did.

It's a fascinating story, uh, and, and a harrowing one. Um, I, I mean, and he told it so calmly and like a— so maturely. I was quite taken with his His attitude and his demeanor. Brittany, what did you make of Brandon Boudreaux when you met him?

So, I don't think I'll ever forget when I first met Brandon in person. We were in California. Jenny and Brandon are getting out of their car, and I imagine Brandon's gonna be somber, right? Like, he's mentally preparing himself. And he throws his arms wide open and is just, like, walking down the street with this gigantic smile on his face. It was the warmest invitation that I've ever gotten from someone. And, and that's exactly how he interacted with us from, from that day on.

He's exactly the same guy now that I met 6 and a half years ago on his parents' porch. He has always been kind, welcoming. I just can't say enough good things about him. I think we were all just incredibly impressed with him as a human being.

Yeah, so taken.

So, Shane, talk about Brandon's connection with Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell. He told us what his attitude toward them was at the beginning and the strange things that happened, but the initial couple of years in their orbit, what were those like for him, as you recall?

Brandon married Lori Vallow's niece, Melanie, in 2008. Melanie was very close to Lori, her aunt, because Melanie's mom, Stacy, had died when she was young, so Lori was kind of a surrogate mom. They often lived around each other. And then after Brandon and Melanie married in 2008, uh, they moved down to Phoenix at some point where Lori lived. Lori was married to her 4th husband, Charles Vallow, and had been for a dozen years or so. And Brandon and Charles were both salesmen and just really—

Both quite successful too.

Yeah, very successful. They, you know, they plotted businesses together, they played with their kids together, and they just really— they bonded. They really felt a kinship. And I think that's why all this was so mind-blowing to Brandon.

One day Melanie came to him and said, God told me you're gay and I'm leaving you. And from there, things kind of snowballed. Take us through what happened there, Shane.

So Melanie and Brandon had been married for more than 10 years. They had 4 kids, and Melanie had been attending some meetings during evenings Um, it turns out with Lori and with, um, a small group of people who also followed this, uh, small-time author and would-be prophet named Chad Daybell, who made all of these people, I think, feel very special.

Right.

Um, which was, which was the allure. You know, he told Lori that they had been married in previous lives. And, um, Melanie came home one time. Uh, we didn't put this in our story, but she came home from one of these meetings and she asked Brandon, in the Bible, did Jesus have a niece? So yeah, I think, I think, you know, Chad knew which buttons to push with her. Melanie felt very special. And suddenly, you know, I think you wrote the line, she spoke as if endowed with some divine authority in telling Brandon that, that he was gay. And so she spoke for God, basically.

Well, this whole religious thing that occurred, the catalyst for it does appear to have been Chad Daybell. A lot of people wonder, was it Lori Vallow who made all this happen, or was it Chad?

So, as part of this process, I went back and I listened to a lot of the testimony from Lori's and Chad's Idaho trials. And a lot of the people that testified, Melanie Gibb, Xoana Pastenes, names that we've heard in other Dateline reports, all said that Lori was getting this information from Chad, right? Like, when someone was identified as dark, That was information directly given to Lori from Chad, and then Lori relayed that to everyone else. And so it does make you wonder, right? Like, was this really all Chad and Chad's influence over Lori? And Lori is a really effective communicator and a very inviting person and someone that people will rally behind, sort of like this tag team effort. Um, but the information itself, it appears according to testimony to have come from Chad himself.

What would possess them both to be— to come together in the first place? To become so quickly engaged with each other and to go so far down that tunnel of extreme, extreme thinking?

I think they're both narcissists and they were meeting their needs. He was clearly unhappy in his marriage at some level and needed some more attention. And she needed to be made special. And he took care of that for her. You know, they fed off each other. And then putting the two of them together, a number of law enforcement people have said, you know, because you and I have asked this question for years, right? Was it— was Chad driving the bus or was Lori driving the bus? And it's really a situation where it was— it was— if, if not for one, the other might not have happened. They just came together. And I guess the big mystery for me is still who believed this stuff. I mean, it's just a bunch of nonsense, right?

Mm-hmm.

But, uh, clearly they they were able to sell it to some people and, and, you know, people like Alex who were willing to commit murder for them.

I think that they were selling exclusivity, right? Like, and community. It— when we think about those really small group meetings that Melanie was going to with her aunt and others, it really was this, like, very tight-knit group of people that made you feel exclusive and a part of something so much bigger than yourself. But it gave them purpose. It gave them intention. Uh, it gave them something to go to and look forward to every day. And I know that you covered this, Shane, but that's something that Brandon talked about in regard to Melanie, in that she grew up without a mother, right? And there, he felt like there was that hole there, that she needed to fill some hole that a mother could have, have been for her.

Yeah, that's, that's certainly true. Um, when we talked to Melanie, it was 2020, just as the pandemic was crashing down on all of us. Um, she was still a true believer at that point, I think. Or was she? I was never very sure exactly where she was at that point.

I think the 2 most bizarre interviews I've ever witnessed at Dateline were Melanie's and Lori's. I mean, you've sat in front of a lot of people, and I think we, we both had the sense that, uh, something wasn't right there. And it was, it was 3 months before the kids' bodies were found. So, she was still, you know, claiming to have hope that the kids were alive, and that she trusted Lori. We asked her lawyers for comment on this story, and they chose not to respond. So, we're left to wonder.

Then you add in the videos we have of her showing up at Brandon's parents' house, of her trying to find the kids at the friend's house, of situations with Alex sitting out in the car that seemed very threatening, which now she's saying weren't threatening at all. So you really don't know where you are when you're talking to her.

I've always wondered why they were trying so hard to find the kids. I mean, was it just a standard divorce thing? They're my kids, you know, I deserve time with them too. Or was it— was there something more to it?

That's why in retrospect Brandon was so terrified and And understandably so. And yet also Melanie could say, no, no, no, nothing like that in mind at all. But again, back to that relationship between Chad and Lori. I find it so fascinating in that he wasn't Mr. America, if I can put it that way. And yet she was so smitten with him so immediately. This is one I keep going over and over and over.

It's strange, isn't it? Because, you know, she had— I mean, By most measures, she had everything anyone could ever want.

True.

Yeah. You know, Charles was clearly hardworking. He'd converted to LDS for her. He was serious about it. He came from a good family. He seemed to take care of her. I mean, I'm not sure she had a care in the world when she was married to Charles.

Didn't seem to. And Charles, yeah, Charles would do anything for her.

And I can't help but see the parallels again to Brandon's story. And we obviously talk about this in our report. Melanie had everything that you think you could ever want from life. A beautiful home, a beautiful family, a successful husband who's present, and a healthy relationship with that person. And yet it took a few words, some words to completely upend that.

Right. Fascinating case. When we come back, we have an extra clip with my interview with Brandon. And we will listen to that.

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There's that very sad and telling moment when, um, Tylee is being interviewed by the police after Charles is shot, her stepfather with whom she's been for most of her life, and she sits there very passively and suggests that her mother's story is accurate, that he came at her with a baseball bat, which nobody believes for a moment. I wondered what must have been going on in her mind during that interview with the police. I guess we can only guess now. Brandon had a pretty close relationship with those kids, didn't he?

Yeah. Brandon's children were, were best friends with JJ and Tylee. We saw many photos of them together doing things. and they played together multiple times a week at the park because they lived so close to each other. Um, and it was a huge part of JJ's life. And so, when Brandon took a break from Charles and Lori, at the request of Melanie, uh, we saw text messages that Brandon never got that were along the lines of, like, JJ misses his best friend. JJ misses his cousins. JJ would love to play with his cousins. Um, so there was that relationship there, and then Brandon— also, uh, baptized Tylee. And that was a decision that Tylee made. Tylee asked Brandon, will you baptize me? Um, but he also talked about a lot of vacations that they took together. That was incredibly hard to hear, uh, what he lost, um, and what his— and what his children lost when they lost their cousins.

How did he take the news of their death?

I got the feeling that he was pretty sure they were gone by the time it was confirmed. In June of 2020. But still, I mean, how do you prepare yourself for something like that? I mean, I don't know how many times we heard this or even said this, like, they wouldn't do that to the kids, would they? I mean, you know, they wouldn't, right?

One of the things he got emotional about during the interview with us was when he talked about having to go and identify the body. JJ's body.

Why did he do it?

He did it because when he showed up in Rexburg, um, JJ's grandparents, Kay and Larry Woodcock, were there. And Larry had vertigo, and he was having trouble standing up. And they needed somebody to go identify JJ's body. And so Brandon just said, Larry, you stay here, I'll go do it. And it was just kind of a snap decision he made to be kind to Larry, which I think just is another thing that tells you who he really is.

He does. Yeah.

Yeah, that's his character.

He talked about going to visit where JJ and Tylee were buried in Chad Daybell's backyard. It's a heartbreaking piece of that interview. Let's, let's listen to that from Brandon Boudreaux.

We took a trip and I got some things for those kids that were things that are memories I have of them. And we went to where they were found and you put them out and—

Wait a minute, you went, you went out to Chad's property? What things did you—

Yeah, JJ was the cutest little guy, and he— Charles traveled a lot for work, and so like he associated a suitcase with Dad, and therefore it was kind of like a— he had this phase where he was just obsessed with suitcases. Like he had like 20, 30 suitcases.

I'm not even exaggerating.

Like so many Disney ones, everything you can think of, right? And so he— but he would take these suitcases everywhere with him because he'd see Dad with a suitcase. So he wanted a suitcase.

Sure.

So I went and got him a suitcase and dropped it off for him over there at his fence. I didn't want him to be without his suitcase. And Tylee was in that phase where she liked to go get a Baja Blast from Taco Bell. Taco Bell was one of the spots she'd go. She had health problems, so she couldn't always eat it. She kind of had to have like a strict diet on certain things. And, um, but I knew that was one of her guilty pleasure spots. And so I went and just got her order from Taco Bell, chopped it up for her. Just something to leave.

How is he grappling with the loss of those kids?

I think he's worked through it all. as well as you can. 6 and a half years, you know, multiple trials, having to testify at those trials. We got, we got some sense of his pain on TV, but he also didn't, didn't let us all the way in.

He's not—

No, he's not a guy. He's not that guy.

Yeah, I think he's saving a bit of it for himself, and, and I respect that because I, I don't think you can ever truly understand what it— because at the crux of this was his concern for his kids, right? He's like, are my kids all right? There was something in him that said, no, they're not, and I need to run. And he was so right. And then at the end of it all, he ended up losing 2 children very close to him and his own children. Um, that's got to be such a heavy weight to carry, right?

It was quite a saga. He, he, he drops his kids at school one day, comes home, And he feels a pop. And there's a bullet hole, you know, an inch or two from his head. And he looks across and he sees what appears to be a Jeep that belonged to Lori Vallow with Alex Cox driving it. And he realizes he has been a target of an attempted murder. He has to go on the run. And that's when it all begins. But it was the timing of the shooting that helped him understand why it may have happened when it happened. Can you tell me about that?

The shooting happened within months of that conversation Brandon had with Melanie, and they started the process of a divorce. And that meant selling this really beautiful home that they had built and chosen to be their forever home. The sale of the home had been finalized literally the day before, October 1st. The home has been sold. Checks are being cut. Um, it is official. Uh, that next day, Brandon is shot at. Um, and it's worth noting, too, that at that same time, Melanie is still, um, the person that would be paid out over $100,000 in life insurance if Brandon were to pass, right? Because they're not officially divorced. They're in the process of it. Um, so she's still the person that would stand to gain every single asset that Brandon has if he were to die.

Brandon has come face to face with Lori in the courtroom several times. He testified at both Lori and Chad's trials. And then last year, Lori represented herself at the Arizona trial, her Arizona trial for attempting to kill Brandon. That meant she got to cross-examine Brandon in the courtroom. And It was intense. What was your impression of the conversation in the courtroom between Lori Vallow and Brandon Boudreaux?

Brandon obviously came prepared and tried to be as measured as he could. But also, this is my interpretation, I felt like a little bit of sassiness, right? Like, you get those questions where she's like, we've known each other for a long time. And his response is, I mean, it depends on how you define a long time.

Right?

Like, the way in which he chose to respond to Lori, for lack of a better way to describe it, felt like a clapback, um, of sorts.

Mm-hmm.

And so I imagine for Brandon— and I don't want to speak for him here— that it, it felt good to be able to speak to her directly and say, your interpretation of events is, is not mine, and, and here's what I have to say to you. Something along the lines of, like, I get to reclaim this narrative. I get the last word. And it's going to be a voice of reason.

Which, given the fact that I've had that long conversation with Lori Vallow in jail, I could only respect Brandon all the more for the way he was able to respond to her. Because that's how you'd have to do it in a courtroom if you didn't want to get caught up in her BS, which is— she's very good at spinning. I will say that.

I thought he was just messing with her. I really enjoyed it because she could have said it was 10 minutes to 1, and he would have said, nah, it was more like, you know, 12:50. You know, it was just— he would just make— he would not cede an inch to her, which made it even more satisfying to watch.

And the question of Melanie, and the crime which Lori was convicted of, the prosecutors identified Melanie as an active member in Lori and Chad's conspiracy. We are left wondering what that means exactly, or whether we'll ever see any more legal action.

We know there's an active investigation in the Gilbert Police Department, and we know that there's a process, right? So for there to be any charges leveled against Melanie at this point, the police department has to submit that case to the prosecutors here in Maricopa County for review. And if they choose, right, if they choose that there's enough there, then, then they press charges and we see what plays out. It's worth noting that the Gilbert Police Department did submit charges against Chad, and Maricopa County returned that case to Gilbert PD and said, there's not enough there for us to proceed, right? We don't have enough there to take it to court. There's always that possibility, right, that Gilbert PD does continue to investigate, that they submit again, and Maricopa County says that there's not enough there.

Tell me about his life now, Brittany.

He is a busy dad of 6 now. So when, when he married, married Jenny, he got 2 bonus children. Jenny had 2 children of her own. And so they built this brand new family, 6 children, uh, here in the Valley. And they are all so busy. Uh, one kid is a rock climber, another is a singer and a football player, and they are constantly on the go, right? Like, Brandon is a football coach. And on Friday night when the report aired, he texted me and was like, I'm so sorry, I am not watching tonight. I have a Halloween event with one kid and a sport event with another kid. And at some point, Jenny and I will find time and we'll sit down and we'll watch it very thoughtfully. And we're just really thankful. But his life really does revolve around these kids and they are all growing up and he is supporting, encouraging, is directly involved involved in all of them.

That's good to know. When we come back, uh, we'll answer some of your questions from social media.

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So we have some questions to answer here. Um, number 1. Let's take a listen to a voicemail from Caitlin.

Hi, my name is Caitlin. I just finished watching Keith Morrison's episode Blindsided. Um, it was a really crazy episode. I was just dumbfounded that a judge would give Melanie any kind of, um, unsupervised custody of her children. It's just crazy that With the past cases that have happened with, with things that like this and people having unsupervised visitation with children, is there any reason why someone would be able to have custody, even just partial custody of children, after being involved in something like Melanie? I know she wasn't convicted, but it still just was crazy to me. Thanks. Love watching Dateline. Bye.

This curious situation where Brandon and Melanie share the children, the 4 children, 50/50. Did it surprise you that this arrangement eventually was made?

That blew my mind. I mean, I'm a divorced dad. I've, I've been through all this, but to have to deliver your kids to somebody who you think really helped, uh, plot your murder, how do you find it in yourself to do that? I mean, that all came about because Melanie, uh, after his temporary sole custody, award or whatever. Melanie asked for a reconsideration, and a custody evaluator came back and said, "I recommend 50/50." And Brandon's first instinct was to fight it, but he and Jenny talked about it, and and they talked to some other people, and those people who had been through this said, "Yeah, you're probably not going to win. The judge is probably going to go with that that recommendation." So somehow he found it within himself once again to just put aside his animus and. You know, whatever you want to call it, take it for the team or whatever, do what's best for your kids.

They seem to have been at the center of his thinking all along.

I mean, it's really very simple. She's never been charged with anything. She's never been convicted of anything. And it kind of all ends there, as crazy as everyone thinks that is.

Yeah. And just a reminder to our viewers, right, that this was an agreement that was made not by a judge in isolation, but it was Melanie and her lawyers, Brandon and lawyers, a mediator, and a judge all coming to this conclusion together. Um, so I think there's a lot there that, rightfully so, we, we don't understand because it's, it's not our custody agreement.

Right, right. So from Deb Walker, this was such an unusual situation, I still have questions about it. There's more to be uncovered. I hope the police will continue to work on this case. Lori likely knows the whole story. Uh, could we possibly see Lori in the courtroom again if Melanie is ever It's a really interesting question, Deb.

And I think, one, anything is possible, especially in regard to this series of cases. Um, it's worth noting that Lori has ongoing appeals in both the state of Arizona and the state of Idaho. And next week on November 2nd, the Idaho Supreme Court is going to hear her case. Um, we don't— we don't have any reason to believe that she'll be present for that hearing, but Lori continues to litigate. So whether or not we might see her in a courtroom is to be determined.

Yeah, I guess so. Then we get story number 9. @JulieKilday says, the Brandon family, mom and sisters, went to the East Coast with him to care for the kids and support him. It was so touching. What a great family.

Well, they are a great family, and everybody should be so lucky. I mean, we had members of his family, a brother who's a dentist in Tucson, who was ready to come on too. And I kind of had to say, say, you know, uh, we can only fit so many Boudreauxs in the story. Uh, his mom and dad would have been great too, but they were on a mission, uh, a church mission up in Montreal, so they weren't available. I've rarely had a story, uh, where I was booking people and all I really had to say to people was, well, we're doing this for Brandon, he's got a book out, and everybody was just like instant yes, tell me where to be.

Yeah.

And we'll put in one final comment, it was from Tina Williams. This is why I love Dateline. They take a story we thought we knew everything about and weave another story about all the other lives involved and affected by very sick people. Well, there is that, all right. And we're very happy to have been able to tell this story. Surprised, frankly, that we were able to tell story number 8 about the Lori-Chad saga. But it's a tale that keeps on giving. So that's it for Talking Dateline this week. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can DM us your audio or video on our socials at @DatelineNBC, or leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here. If you're in the mood for something spooky, by the way, don't forget to check out a whole new Morrison Mysteries, the podcast. This time, the mystery story is Edgar Allan Poe. And so we begin with the story of a man who committed the perfect murder Until he encountered the one thing he couldn't fend off— his own conscience. This is The Telltale Heart. To get ad-free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium.

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