Transcript of James L. Brooks

Hi, my name is James L. Brooks. I feel quizz about being Konan. Oh, my, I'm Fred.

You and your $9 words.

Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens. I can tell that we are going to be friends.

I can tell that we are going to be friends. Hey there, and welcome to Conor O'Brien Needs a friend. I came in a little hot.

Yeah, right out of the gate.

I know. It was like an auctioneer. Conor, my name's a friend.

Oh, I've been watching a lot of auction videos online.

Is that a thing?

Sotheby's has an account, and you can watch them. They're all these really professional people, and a lot of them are on the phone, and they just raise a finger and he's like, Okay, and we have 3 million there. Do I have three? Three, one, three, one. I want to be one of those people who is on the phone raising my hand.

Here's my terror. As you know, I have a lot of ticks and bodily movements.

I think you meant like the insect.

As you know, I'm covered in ticks. What if I just took off my shirt and it was solid tic? Oh, God, it leaches. Just a solid black T-shirt of undulating tics all going, sucking away. I'm like, Yeah, I've got some tics. No, I've thought about that. I've never gone to a real auction. The idea that I'd be in an auction where it's like 9. 1 million going once, going twice. I know that it would... You know what I mean? They'd be like, And Conor Bryant over there with 9. 2. It's on you now, buddy.

I grew up, my neighbor was an auctioneer, but for cattle and stuff like that. That's very different. He had this really crazy way of doing it where he'd go, Hey, a little... He would walk up and down the street.

Was he tiny? He was tiny. He sounds tiny. I'm carried away by a bird.

I was just a kid, and he'd offer me Paps Blue Ribbons and things like that.

That's a different thing. He wanted to do Bocce.

He He's wanted to play Bocce.

Is he in Whittier?

He's in Whittier.

Is there a lot of cattle?

No, there's none. Where's it going?

He was from Missouri. That's what you're watching is auctioneer videos. I didn't know that was a thing. I am addicted to... I mean, I watch a lot of guitar garlic little Instagram videos and stuff. But one thing I've noticed that I'm totally transfixed by is little carpentry hacks. I can't make anything out of wood, but they'll show you how they join two pieces of wood by making these little cuts. Or they'll show you, oh, if there's a crack in your furniture. And of course, they always have equipment that I would never have, that I don't think anybody would have except a professional woodworker. But they'll say, oh, no, if you put this screw halfway in, but then you cover it in glue, but then you make this little divot and you put it in here, it's recessed, and then you clamp this together and then you sand it. I'm like, oh, my God, I just orgasmed watching that. It's fantastic. Then I watch the videos That's where they explain how an orgasm works, and I could watch those forever.

Those are hacks as well.

Those are hacks as well. You cut them here and you cut there. Then you put a little glue and...

That's my auctioneer voice.

Going West, going West.

I'm also imagining, this is my YouTube video, is I watch Konan having an orgasm covered in ticks.

I'm covered in ticks. I'm watching Orgasming while watching a carpentry hat.

One view.

The ticks are all watching, too. One view, and it's me. One view. That's awful. Yeah, that was... I don't know how that all came together, but it did. What do you watch? What's your guilty pleasure?

Gosh, I'll watch a lot of 10 Things You Didn't Know About Godfather 3 or something, or Restoration of Old Toys where they sandblast it and repaint it and things like that. It's like an SMR.

I'd like to come back as someone who knows how to make things. It's so endlessly fascinating, and I I don't know what it is, but it's so satisfying to see people. Especially if they do something like liquefy aluminum and pour it into a mold and then make something where they polish it, I will cancel everything. No, no, no. They found your replacement liver. They can surgically put it in right now before it dies. I need to finish watching this. I'll take my chances on another emergency liver.

That you might like? What? Marble Olympics? I I don't know what that is. It's like someone makes these huge racetracks, and they race marbles against marbles. They all have names, and there's all kinds of different races and marbles in the bleachers watching. It's amazing.

This is sports for nerds.

I know, but isn't it possible that we've reached-Sorry.

Oh, it's okay.

This is the extinction level we've reached is that we gamed over time, we figured out how to gain humans. If you do this and you do that, a human will want to buy that product. So it's all been figured out by algorithms. And now we're at a point where we know we have to figure out. They figured out what humans love to to watch, and we're all watching it. I was in an airport three days ago. Everyone I passed was on their phone, all watching the thing that's been wired directly to their brain to please them. We might stop feeding ourselves.

I know.

It's really getting- It's really bad.

Although I heard, I don't know if this is true, but a lot of kids are into dumb phones, which are basically very basic.

I got one for the Oscars last year.

I had a brick for I turned my phone, my app off completely.

Does that work? I'm interested in that.

I love it. It's a thing called a brick, and it's a solid... It's a physical object that you have to have with you, so you can leave it at home. If you break your phone, you can set what apps you can use. I can go out and just have nothing but maps and Spotify or something like that. I don't understand.

I can't be Is this an ad for this device? Are you secretly getting money? I'm not getting any money.

Is it your phone like that now?

No, not like that now because I need it. You just touch it to the brick and it breaks your phone. You just tap it on there and you preset what apps it will let you use. If you leave that thing at home, you I can't... I've talked to you about this, Adam. Sometimes I'll text Adam going, If there's an emergency at work, text Amanda because my phone's bricked. I don't want to be on social media or anything like that.

I need to do that.

It's great. It's just called brick.

I got a real It was a little dumb phone when things were really heating up with the Oscars, and people think they're getting a call from a drug dealer. It's just hilarious.

So they're disappointed when it's you.

But then I try to make up for it by actually selling them drugs. Drugs I have no way of knowing how to get. I know. I would love to see that. I'm like, I've got some really good black tar heroine that can be your... And then I have to go out and find it.

You don't know how much you're going to charge for that much?

No. Imagine him dealing drugs.

You would be a terrible drug dealer. Why? Because A, you don't do drugs.

This is insulting. Okay. All right. So what?

That's a big reason.

You don't know how much anything... A lot of people don't use the product they sell.

You don't know how much a little baggy of Coke would normally cost.

Let's role play this. It's a dark alley. There's one broken street light. Sure. Sona and I, we're looking for a fix.

It's 1944 in your scenario. I'm looking for a fix. Hey. You need a fix? Yeah, I'm your drug dealer. What's going on?

Hold on, we're walking that.

You already can't say, what if I'm a cop.

All right. Hey, how about this?

You have to have an alias. Yeah.

You got to be a little more covert about it.

My name's Jasbo. Oh, my God. You're so bad. What's wrong with Jasbo? What's wrong with Jasbo? Sona, relax.

I'm sorry.

I got this.

I just don't want the cops to get us.

Okay. Hey, Jasbo.

Where'd you hear about me? We're looking for some Stripeies. Where'd you hear about me?

I heard about you back in the wars. Okay.

What you want?

Some Stripeies.

Stripeies? Yeah. I got Stripeies. I got Black Benny's, Jojo's, Flip Flops. Bank ladies. Bank ladies. All right. Squantos. Half-prontos.

How much?

What do you got?

A dollar.

Done.

See, I told you. Do you have anything stronger? Do you have any blow?

You want to blow? Yeah, I'll blow you. How much? I'll pay you whatever you want.

Okay, that's what I'm talking about.

I just got to blow you right now. All I've got is $2,000. I sold a bunch of Stripeies earlier today. Here you go. Now, let's get to me blowing you. I'm Jasbo, the blower.

You know how they say- I'm a top blower in this town.

Jasbo is the name. Blowing is my game. I'll give you whatever you want. This is just a deposit.

You know how they say, If you're a cop, you have to tell me? Yeah. Take off your shirt. I got to know if you're covered in ticks.

I don't remember if this is even the same record. I didn't either, but I think it was- It was a long time ago. It's time to wrap.

Is this the same one? Okay.

Anyway.

I have no idea, wasn't it? It is, right? It is, right? Because the YouTube.

Yes.

Is it the same one? I don't know. It started with auction videos. I'm seriously, Jeff. I don't know. I took notes. All I know is that I'm paying you top dollar to blow you in this scenario when my name's Jasbo.

I got drugs for a dollar and I'm being to be fellated by a man, by a Jasbo covered in ticks.

I also love the first time you're like, Hey, I'm your drug dealer.

I'm your drug dealer. Drug dealer here. Jasbo's the name. Drug dealer's the game. Here you. Any cops around? Dinga, Dinga, Dinga. Anyone watch illegal drugs? Jasbo's the name. Drug dealer's the game. I'll blow you. Well, What the fuck? I have to say this is going to be an excellent show. All right, you knuckleheads, pipe down. My guest today is an academy award-winning director and screenwriter behind such films and TV shows as Terms of Endearment: The Mary Tyler Mohr Show, and Broadcast News. His latest movie, Ella McKay, is in theaters now. I'm thrilled he's here today. James L. Brooks. Welcome. You're not going to remember this, but I'm going to thank you upfront because you did me a huge- When you were selling those flowers. I was selling flowers. I was blind. You bought one and then paid for my operation. Oh, wait, that's a Charlie Chaplin movie. Now, you did a great thing for me, and you won't remember this, in addition to other many great things that you've done for me. When I was a writer on the Simpsons, and out of nowhere, they announced this complete unknown was going to be taking over for David Letterman.

His name is Konan O'Brien. No one knew how to react. This is insane. Somehow, they were just looking for any quote, and they got to you somehow, and they said, Well, Simpsons, James L. Brooks, what do you think of this? You said, The moment I met Conan O'Brien, I knew that he would one day replace David Letterman as the host of Late Night. Now, that's a really funny joke, but thank God, the media had no sense of irony.

That happens with a lot of things that I hope are jokes.

I read so many articles that were like, Of course, James L. Brooks came to his defense and said, From the moment I met him, he was the only one And I think I survived off that quote for a couple of months.

I think what I actually said was he can't. We have him under contract.

You know, someone did, actually. It wasn't you.

No. Actually, I remember somebody coming to me because you were under contract.

I was under contract at the Simpson when this insane thing happened and out of the blue. I got the word that, yeah, kid, you're it. When I was at a rewrite session in the basement of the record room, at Warner Brothers, a phone call came through. Someone said, It's for you, Konan. I took the phone and it was my agent, Gavin Polone, and he said, You got 12: 30. I said in a deflated tone because I knew what I was in for, I said, I knew it, because I was scared. Then the drama unfolded, which was I was under contract at the Simpsons for another couple of years. I remembered someone at Fox said, Now, hold on a second. He's got to buy his way out of his contract. I was driving a Ford Taurus at the time, which I still own, broadly. Oh, man. Yeah. They said, You got to buy your way out. It wasn't you. It wasn't Richard Sakea. It was some guy at Fox was like, Hey, wait a minute. But did they come to you ever and say, What do you think of this?

No, I remember hearing that somebody told me because you were quickly a star of the staff. I mean, that was... No, but it was insane how quickly that happened. Then somebody said, He's wanted exactly this since he was 14.

But I remember I left SNL, and I'm in New and I get a call from Mike Ries and El Jean, and they say, We hear you're available. Would you want to join us at the Simpson? This is 1991, I think. They said, Jim Brooks is coming in to hear all the pitches for the new Ezen, and I started pitching you ideas, and you were laughing. You have that amazing, iconic laugh, and I was overjoyed. Then you said yes to two of them. Then El Jean said, Tell them about the monorail. Oh, wow.

He pitched Wow.

I said, This is my first time in the room.

That's one of the classic Simpson shows.

Well, I had just had two ideas accepted. There's a big part of my, I don't know, Irish Catholic, Don't push it. Just, You got to. This is going to anger him because it's weird. I pitched you Monerail and you laughed really hard. That was one of my great days in show business to this day was pitching to you and having you be happy and hearing that famous laugh, a laugh that unbeknownst to me, I had heard on television growing up, that famous laugh of you that you can... Do you hear it yourself when you watch Mary Tyler More Show or Taxi?

Do you hear yourself? I do. There's an echo quality that's attached to it recently. No, I do. Terrible. I've had people turn around during watching a comedy movie, and my laugh bothered them so much. They turned around, giving me dirty looks for laughing at a comedy.

Yeah, it is... We remember De Niro, that famous scene in the movie theater? Cape Fear. Cape Fear, where he's being incredibly obnoxious and laughing. I mean, you have had an insane career. You've been so spectacularly successful. I thought I'd start at the beginning, which is you've done all these iconic shows, revolutionary shows, movies, and you start out working on shows like My Three Sons or Andy Griffith Show. I was wondering-My Mother the Car. My Mother the Car.

My Mother the Car. A famous bomb. If you recall, it's about a man whose mother dies and comes back as a talking car. Yeah. It wasn't my idea. I wish it was.

Was Jerry Van Dyke the star?

Who was the star?

I think it was Jerry Van Dyke, maybe, was the star of it. It was a famous bomb. I don't know if they ever told you, but it's a famous bomb.

I never knew it was famous as being... I never knew that.

When I was growing up- I think of it as a moderate.

No, I'm here to tell you. I'm here to tell you, sir. It was a famous bomb. It was a famous Yeah, there you go.

Iconic bomb. Everything you do is iconic. But this was... I was looking at these early shows and thinking, okay, you go on to do, of course, Miratella Moore and Taxi and Rota, all these things. You You are, I think, the very best of 1970s and '80s television, Simpson. Then you do Terms of Endearment, which to this day is a movie my wife and I watch hundreds of times and beg anyone to watch with us again because it's so amazing, and broadcast news, and it's just... It's ridiculous. Your resume is madness and feels like a fraud. You've made this up. This is an invention of AI. What were you learning on the Andy Griffith show? What were you learning on those early shows? What did they teach you?

That I might survive is the big lesson I think I got out of it because I came out to California from a job I really liked as a news writer in New York for one of the networks. Things had been, I had messing up pretty continually. Then think, I got this job without being a college graduate, that you're supposed to be a college graduate, which was an usher at CBS. You're supposed to be a college graduate for that job because it was- Like an internship.

A step on the ladder.

Yeah. Because my sister knew the person who assisted the person who hired the ushers, I got the job. And it's so nuts when you look back, because nothing would have happened unless that happened, the way it worked out. Because then it's always nuts to think how luck plays a part. And then the usher staff filled in for minor jobs when the person who had the better job, the minor job, though, in the scheme of things, went on vacation. I filled in for somebody who was a copy boy desk assistant at CBS News, and he didn't come back from vacation. It was just that was the break.

Was he lost at sea? It sounds so ominous. Well, he died. What did What did you do to him is the question. It's clear what you did. That's where your deal with the devil starts. It's this unprecedented career. You start that writing, and then at some point you have to say, All right, television writing is a possibility?

I never saw it as a possibility. I never saw it as a possibility. Somebody I worked with when I had a job at a radio station ended up in an independent documentary house here, and he offered me a job, and I took it, which was leaving the first secure thing I had in my life, which was a job at CBS in the news division. Then I came out and I was laid off six months after I got here. It's not like I always wanted to write. I always wrote with no notion that I could do it as a profession. Honestly, never occurred to me. My ambition was primarily to survive. That was it. We were a grubby lot as documentary makers, and I went to a party on New Year's Eve, and we were there being grubby, and a tall, handsome man walks in in a tuxedo, and it's Alan Byrne. He had five shows that he had created, comedy shows on the air at that time. He asked me, he said, What do you do? I said, Well, I want to write. He got me a job. That's what he knew. He didn't read anything or anything else.

He was just that sweet a guy. Yeah. We got me an assignment, and then things started to work.

It's interesting. Some of these shows, these early shows, like Andy Griffith's show, the best episodes are still magical to me, and it's because it's character comedy. I'm thinking at some point you must have learned it's not rapid fire jokes. One of the hallmarks of your career has been writing that way within characters.

I guess.

Wait a minute. I'm basing this off Hey, you live and learn.

You know what I'm saying?

Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Somebody write down what that guy said.

Wait a minute. I just came to Yoda and said, Yoda, I heard there is no try, there's just do. What mean you? Who say? Who you talk to? Whatever, I guess. That's what it feels like right now. Okay, forget that. I'm going back to Just Jokes. It's funny because huge turning point in your life, Mary Tylermore Show, a show that you create, and you did the pitch-With Alan Burns. With Alan Burns. But who did you pitch it to? And was Mary Tylermore in the room when you pitched it?

I had done a show, Room 222. Which was- Love that show. Alan and I met on that show. Grant Tinker, who was the vice President at Fox and was married to Mary Tyler Moore, and was, every time you mention his name, was the best boss that ever happened. He saved our rear ends. He was amazing in his support of writers. Just crazy great. We all loved him. He was a magic man. We pitched to CBS for the Mary Morish, and we pitched a bad idea. I mean, our first idea was a bad idea.

My father, the car. So you pitch a bad idea.

It was an amazing pitch session because there were a semi-circuited circle. You do it for a bad science fiction movie, a semicircle of chairs with all these people in it. The head of programming, this is a true story, the head of programming in the middle of it. Our first idea was that she be divorced and coming off a divorce. The guy actually said, There are three things people don't like. Stories about divorce. I swear to God he said this because we had a Rota character in it, Rota Morgan Stern. Stories about divorce, Jews, and mustaches. Oh, my God. You couldn't make this up, right? Oh, my God. He's looking at me, a Jew, with a mustache, as he says it. That really happened in time and space. That actually happened. Yes. The guy was looking at my I'm not going to say that. Grant went in, and we never knew it. He just said, wait for me. He came out, he looked a little angry, and he had just used the weight that he had to save our asses.

Unbelievable. So you do this show, and it's interesting. In retrospect, people say, Mary Tyler Morshaw was revolutionary. She's single. It's a show based about this woman. She has a career. She doesn't have a- She has no steering wheel. She has no steering wheel. She has a wise-cracking... There's no wise-cracking kid. There's no- She has a mustache. She has a mustache. She's secretly Jewish. Morinstein. But people talk about it now being revolutionary, and You never saw it that way. While you were making it, you were just making a show, correct?

At a certain point, we knew that we were making the right show at the right time because it was just what was happening to women in general then. It was the timing, the thing that you can't create yourself. This was right. Coincidentally, it was the time when the only time in the history of television when a new president of television came over and the first thing he did was cancel a bunch of of 20 shows because they were all those buccolic, petticoat junction, Beverly Hills Billy shows. And he canceled them when they were enormously successful shows. It's never happened before or since.

No, it wouldn't. Imagine today, I think at the time, CBS had maybe nine of the top 20 shows. They were just killing it with Westerns. The President of the company said, I've always heard this rumor that it was Wife who was embarrassed by this bucolic comedy and thought that it was lame. I don't know if that's true, but he came in and he said, Let's get rid of all of these, which can you imagine-Enormously successful, highest rated shows.

Yeah. Yeah.

And got rid of all of them and put a complete new stamp on what CBS was all about.

But I've always been- A half year earlier, one of the first shows to come out of that was All In The Family as he built a new CBS. Then at the last minute, we were in a death time period with the Mary Tyler More Show, and he changed us and put us behind All In The Family, or else I don't think it would have happened. I think we would have been lost.

I think you said no one, and again, you'll tell me, I never said that, anyone who sets out to make a revolutionary TV show isn't going to.

Yeah. I think with Room 222, because it was, I think, the second show to have a Black lead, the first show to have two Bane Black characters. That felt good. You You knew you were doing it. You knew it was happening. But this certainly didn't see it coming.

I remembered Room 222 seeing that and noticing the difference that these did seem... Usually when high school students were served up to us. It was guys in Letterman sweaters, and it felt very much like Ossie Nelson, Ricky Nelson stuff. And this felt like people I knew. I wasn't in high school. I I think it's 1969, so I was about six years old when that show came out. But I remembered thinking, these feel like people I see in my life, and they feel authentic. I didn't even probably... I didn't know the word authentic, but it felt real to me.

The director-producer of the show, Jean Reynolds, when we were working for him, and he kept on sending me back to the high school, kept on sending me back. I finished research. I'd go to him. I said, Yeah, I got it. No, you don't. Go back. I sat in classes for a while, and there was a teacher showed up, and I was hanging at this high school at his insistence.

Do that now when you're in trouble. I'm working on a TV show. I don't think you are, sir. Come with us.

I thought it was raining. That's why I'm wearing this coat.

Why do you have all that candy? Now, that's a different story. I have low blood sugar. I think a huge... It's interesting, too. This was an era when I feel like there was real leadership in television, people like Grant Tinker who had taste and would go out on a limb, and they weren't just trying to follow the latest trend. When I was in college and working on the humor magazine, The Lampoon, I was there all the time. I practically lived in that building because I was obsessed with comedy. One night, there was a knock at the door, and I opened the door, and there in a double-breasted suit is Grant Tinker, and he was standing with Brandon Tartuff. They were doing some event at Harvard, and they saw this building and they knew, Oh, some funny writers are coming out of that place. They just wanted to see it. So they knocked on the door and I opened the door and they asked for a tour. I was 19, I think, and I just led them around the building and showed them everything and answered all their questions and worked up the nerve to make a couple of quips along the way.

Then as they walked out the door, I remembered Grant Tinker looked like someone out of Guys and Dolls. He had a pinstriped suit. But I led them around and then I took them to the front door, and I remember Brandon Tartuff just saying, Well, Konan, you're a funny guy. I think I lived off that for a decade.

Did you ever tell them that after you had arrived in television?

I don't think so. I did a pilot with Robert Smiley, and I did pilot with Brandon Tartuff. I don't know that I took the chance in our one or two meetings with him. He was a terrific guy. He was amazing. These were people with real talent and taste and sensibility. I think that's in short supply these days, so many people are running scared in not just television, but film. People are running for cover that it's, I don't know if we'll see their like, again. People that have- DATA.

Data. What's that? It was DATA. This is before That's what they had. Yes. I mean, they had their thing, but it was very rudimentary.

No, now we have actual computers that tell us we don't like Jews, mustaches, or divorce. It turns out they were right. I don't know why we fought it so hard. I'm very curious about Mary Tyler Moore because she played a big part in my life because when I first got my late night show, for reasons I still don't understand, and I was under fire for this kid doesn't have it. Who is he? He seems awkward. Mary Tyler Moore was my second guest. She was the first guest on the second show, and then came back routinely and was an incredible talk show guest. And of course, I couldn't believe that I was sitting here talking to someone who was coming through my television, Dick Van Dyke Show, on a black and white TV in my kitchen in Brooklyn, Mass, and I'm eating baloney strips my mother put in a bowl, and I'm watching this person Yeah, I was being punished. I was on war rations. But that was a big meal back then. But I mean, it was a big... I had this feeling of she is making eye contact with me and using my first name, and it still seems unreal to me.

What was working with her like on that show?

I'm trying to phrase this so that I can really... There was an extraordinary thing she did, the great star of the show, and she used all all the power she had not to have the power and to make it a company and to make everybody feel like that.

An ensemble. Yeah.

It was never like we had to worry what would Mary think. I mean, we'd have a run through, we'd try and fix whatever needed fixing. She never came to the office. At seven years, I remember the best thing I did in my life is they were saying, Let's go out while we're ahead. Let's call it a go. Let's call it a go at six. I said seven. That was the- I just bought a boat. That was the best word.

That's the great motivator. Buy a boat and you'll do three more ceases. Also, I never believe get out while you're ahead. No. If I buy a boat, it's going to be called the SS, ride it to the bottom. So you wanted seven, and I know she did have a note, or I believe she had a note on the final episode. One of the few times that she- Never.

The first time, the only time, seven years, never did it, never came to our office to say something. It was nuts. The nation stopped for our final show. It was like crazy. It was crazy, the extent of it.

Do you remember the share or the number that it got? Because that's an era that has passed. The Super Bowl wouldn't get the share or the number.

I'm not into numbers, 52%, I I always heard it was 51.

It's 52. You're forgetting Iowa. Okay. Incredible. But she had a note on the last episode, which was?

That everybody had said their goodbye, and we hadn't done it for her. Oh, wow. I can't explain it, but then we did it, and it's one of the best moments I've ever been part of.

Is it the shuffling out together?

No. That was on the set. That was great. We were running it, and they get into a group hug at-They're all saying goodbye, and it's over. They're in a group hug. They're all hugging each other. There's six, I think, six people hugging each other, and they're crying. And they said there was something who had Kleenex in the hug. And in dress, we said, No, no. The Kleenex is on the table, so the group is hugging each other. Has to shuffle over. To the table.

It was the way to go out.

It was just the way to go out.

And there was a famous episode where the light Mary is going to have a party. Her party is always going to go badly. She says that Johnny Carson is coming to the party. Of course, Johnny Carson is the biggest star in television. We are excited that he's going to show up.

All we knew was that he would do the show, and then we made that show because we heard that he'd do it. Yeah.

He made the show because Johnny Carson said he'd do it, which was an impossibility. He didn't do things. It's not like today where everybody's everywhere. It just was you couldn't believe that the most famous man in America who doesn't do anything other than the Tonight show is going to show up and the lights go out, Mary's apartment loses its lights, and then Johnny Carson enters in the dark and you hear him.

We never saw him, I believe.

You never saw him. That was the thing, yes. It was you got Johnny Carson and had the balls to say, You're never going to... And you heard him. You couldn't believe believe that this show would get Johnny Carson and then not show him and just could hear his voice. It was just magical. I think about you have this run in television and then you say, Okay, I'm going to do movies. That's the leap that I always think is fascinating when someone says, I think I could do this. I could make a movie. I would, of course, I've never had that impulse. I've never thought I could direct, but Clearly, this is just something that was in you. You knew this is something I could- I can't explain it.

I had no ambition to be a director. I just simply didn't.

So your first feature film is Terms of Endearment? Yeah. Okay. A movie you can go back to and back to and back to again, and it's become more relevant because of the way we experience news now. It is prophetic. Talking about emotion and drama being inserted into the news and people being a newsman being relatable.

You're talking about a broad cast?

I'm sorry about broad cast news.

I'm sorry. Thank you so much. I was just trying to think how to save him. I just want you to know there was nothing. I didn't recoil. I actually wanted to come to his aid.

Let me explain something to you.

That's the guy I am.

Let me explain something to you. Maybe you haven't watched it in a while. I'm doubling down. Terms of Endearment begins. Oh my God. It begins in a news- Jesus.

You got to make this podcast less, I just bought a boat.

Keep it going. I apologize. You will fix this. I know you will.

No, you have to leave it.

No, but all- You do. If you say it, listen, I'm going to make it very clear to you that I was right the first time. I find that if I never apologize, and I'm seeing this play out in public life, in politics. Here we go. But yeah, the original Terms of Endearment was a version of broadcast news. It's a really weird turn when everyone decides to abandon the newsroom. But did you feel comfortable the minute you were directing? Did it feel to you like this was... Oh, I feel like a duck in water.

I was working with Jack Nicholson, the actor, the guy, the star. He made it great because he'd come up to me like, he said, You want to know the worst direction you gave today? And then he said, You want to know the best direction?

So he was tutoring you a little bit?

He was being great to me. He was just three-quartered kidding, but just in my corner. That made it work.

I would imagine you'd be intimidated a little by him. He still is a massive star.

No, he was great. I mean, great actor. There was a scene, I think it was in that movie, there was a scene I came to when he said, This It actually happened. I said, Too angry. It's just too angry. Then I said, Again, it was just too angry. Then he did the scene and blew up that I kept on doing this. He was just blowing up, not performing. I said, That's it. Then we both... I mean, he broke up and I broke up. But it was it. It was just it seemed too angry until suddenly it was like nobody had ever done it just like that.

I had always heard, is it true that Bert Reynolds turned down that role and did Stroker Ace instead?

No, he did a picture. He did a different picture. He did a picture with 12 women in it and him or something like that.

That's the movie we all want to make.

Yeah, I'm And he was the number one box office star in America. But he did turn it down? And he had said he'd do it, and then he turned it down for this movie. I had the number one star doing my movie. And then I got a phone call from his press agent. Berts decided not to do the movie, but he wants you to know he loves you. And he sent a little jacket, a little... That the jacket, I just looked at it and it was medium, and I'm alarmed.

Oh, man. Oh, Bert.

It was just the jacket he was wearing that Yeah, it was just whatever he was...

It had burnt written in it in ink. Just said gumsmoke on it. Absolutely incredible. I intend to embarrass you with this, but you've got three Oscars, 22 Emmys, a Golden Globe. You need to immediately be in a Broadway show because we need to get you a Tony, and I think you're set, right? A Grammy? A Grammy. You need a Grammy.

Golden Gloves could be the G in there.

Yeah, exactly. You got to get the Egot. That's There are very few that can claim that. I'm sorry. I think these are good ideas I'm pitching you. Oh, you used to like my ideas. Now, suddenly- Check, please. Sir, please. We try again with a different pasta. You took a hiatus from directing for how many years?

I don't know, man.

Hey, are you high? I don't know, man. I don't know, man. Leave me alone. You got nothing better to talk about? This is the first movie, Ella Mouké. Your new movie is the first one you've directed in 15 years, I believe.

Yeah.

Did it feel when you got on set, like you're just right back where you started?

I was producing other films, and I'm on set all the time when I do that, and I was working. I have no explanation for it. Then I was going nuts because I think, I'm not myself unless I'm writing. Elma Case happened that.

Yeah. You have a terrific cast. I was very happy to see Julie Cavenagh in there.

Oh, man.

I know she's been a long part of your history, but I got to know her at the Simpsons, and she's It's just a force of- God, look at the movie.

Because you're going to feel great seeing her.

She takes you- No, she starts the movie. That's what I love. She's the narrator. She's the narrator, and she starts by looking... I love the narrator saying, I'm the narrator, and this is what's happening. I felt very taken care of by her. Oh, great.

Yeah, lovely.

That voice was first burned into my brain on Roda, I believe, is where I heard it.

Yeah, when she was a kid. Yeah, that was her first. Yeah.

She just cuts through everything. I know, Oh, I know her. She's going to hold my hand and take me through this journey.

Show me the person who doesn't love her. I mean, it's just especially, and that happens in the movie. She's literally the narrator taking you through it.

Did it feel to you when you were making it like, this is the experience I've had before, after taking a break for a while, did it feel like, yes, I'm putting on an old coat. This fits this process.

When you're going to direct, you leave the world. You leave the world even more intense than when you're writing, I think, when God knows you leave the world a bit. And these days, to have an idea and to say, Gee, that's funny, and to be able to get a movie made out of it, you got to appreciate the shit out of it because it's not those days. Specifically, how is it different?

Just that there's so much-What's the thing about data?

You know this will work because you run the numbers and stuff like that. And there are no numbers to run on. Hey, I got an idea. So You're lucky. It's great. You get to make it.

You probably won't remember this, but you came on my show early, early days, I think 1994.

I might have still been writing it. I spent a long time on that script.

Yeah. But you came on my talk show, The Late Night Show, and we got into this conversation about how well you write for women, which is in full force in Ella McKay You talked then, and I thought I'd revisit it now just briefly, which is that you were raised by women, and you think that had a profound effect on your ability to write to those characters.

Yeah. The conversation of women were my whole upbringing. There was hard stuff going on. I was a child, and I always heard my mother and her two sisters were enormously close. I just heard I had an older sister who helped raise me because circumstances were just tough for a while. I did. I grew up hearing them talk.

It's also interesting to me that this movie, past trauma informs everything that's happening for the character of Ella. It's like the things that she's gone through with her father and death of her mother. It's all informed. And her family and even her husband. She's not catching a break from a lot of people in her life. It's interesting to me that it's not unlike your story where you had some traumatic experiences when you were younger.

That's the same, but she's a remarkable kid. She's a remarkable kid who, as a remarkable kid, has to handle things no kid should have to handle. The thing that held it up for a long time was finding out who could play the part. Because the thing that was in my mind was I always loved those Katherine Hepburn, Audrey Hepburn movies, those 1950s movies. I was nuts about them. This was really me trying to copy them. It was fascinating. I think homage is the better word.

Everything's an homage. Writers' guild, it's an homage.

In tribute, too.

But it's interesting because my experience with you on the Simpsons was you would always remind us, make sure you're writing for Lisa, make sure you're writing for Marge, because left to my own devices, I would only write about Mr. Burns. I only wanted... Because he had unlimited wealth and was in evil, that's a fantasy for me that I can You can have a character who has a hyperbaric chamber, golden robots. You can release hounds. Anything can happen. If I was just left alone in a room, every single episode I wrote would have been Mr. Burns goes to college, Mr. Burns. Mr. Burns gets his period, which is one I wrote, projected because they said, science doesn't back this. But anyway, your voice was often heard in the room saying, We need to make sure that this family exists and that all of these characters are utilized and that they're real. Even if amazing, weird, strange things are happening in a cartoon, it has to have this inner integrity, which I still think is bullshit. I just wanted to get you here to tell you that.

Yeah. I mean, it's always funny. It's always the object. But yeah, I think it Yeah, I think that was always true about the show. I think it is true about the show.

It's unbelievable that it's still going. I mean, to me, it's been... I left that show in 1993 and said, Well, I'm out of here, and this thing's got another A year to go.

It's going to fold without me.

Yeah. There's no way this continues without me, which I say whenever I leave a room. I say that at parties. I say that when I leave a restaurant. This Denny's will surely perish without Am I? I'm shocked when I see them still functioning. But yeah. Then I've had the experience of going back 30 years later and the... Some of the same people are there. It's absolutely incredible. They're chained to the wall. They're skeletons. I mean, it's incredible. But it's one of the great success stories in TV history. Absolutely amazing.

It's amazing to me. It's amazing to everybody on the... It is. I remember that... And we went on when the Fox Network was on life support. Yes. And then we got the cover of a magazine, like Antenna News or something like that. You never heard of the magazine, but we were on the cover, and I put it on my office wall. And then all of a sudden, that wall was covered with covers. It was like crazy.

It was a phenomenon, and it was the biggest thing. Michael Jackson. I mean, talk about Johnny Carson doing Mary Tyler more as a guest star. You think, well, you can't I didn't top that. But Michael Jackson in, I think, 1988 or '89, appearing as a guest star.

And you had Carson, too, right?

Yeah, Carson was there. I was there the day Carson came in to do his voice because I think he's helping out Crusty at one point. It was just after Johnny had retired and wasn't doing anything. Then he said he'd do the Simpsons. It burned into my brain that day because he came in, coolest-looking guy ever. He had a file of and two packs of cigarettes unopened. He sat down, he did his voices, he did his records. Then we, of course, had a million things we wanted him to sign. So he sat there signing and started talking to us, and we were asking questions. I think he liked being around a room of writers, and he missed it. He chatted with us. Then I went out, I had to do something. When I came back, he was just walking to his white Corvette. Every year, I think he got a brand new white Corvette, and he got in it, and he had his cool sunglasses on. He said, I don't do a Johnny Carson, but excuse me, how do I... And I said, You go down there and you take a right. And he said, Thank you.

And he took off.

That was pretty good.

He took off. He took off and he took a right-hand turn. And just as he took the right-hand turn, I remembered, it's a left. Oh, no. And I'm dying, and I'm watching, watching. And what here he's going is to a cul-de-sac that takes you pretty much to Olympic Boulevard, but you can't access it because it's a lot. Oh, you suck. And I waited. And then after about a minute and a half, the car came back the other way. I know that Johnny Carsten was thinking, Fucking asshole.

You should have said, I said left, moron.

I said left. You white-haired fuck. Oh, my God. Man, opportunities missed. I wish you had been there. But yeah, absolutely amazing. This has been a joy. Thank you so much for taking the time. Congrats on your new movie, Ella McKay. Just getting to any chance I ever have to connect with you is magical for me. Oh, thanks, man. You've made a huge difference in my life, and I can't thank you enough.

Mumbble, mumble, yeah.

Mumbble, mumble, mumble.

No, thank you.

We're going to put in using AI, we're going to put you in the end saying, Please, Konan, you're the most talented person I've ever met. You're going to hear it later, and there's going to be a lawsuit. We're going to insert a lot of things. Konan, you look fantastic.

But we'll keep this part in as well.

Yes, you keep this in, Exposing my Terrible Crime. I'll admit I'm a little terrified because Aaron Blair, a. K. A. Bley, says he has an idea for a segment. We don't know what it is. We don't know what it is. Here we go. Bley, I tremble, but you have the floor.

I don't normally do this, as you know. I like to think of myself generally as a unifier, bringing people together. I don't want to be divisive. I don't want to tear us apart as a group. What is this? But sometimes This preamble is going on forever.

When you know sometimes a man comes to a time in life- Well, it's not a very...

There's not a lot, too. Not a lot to meet on this, Bowen, so I'm trying to draw it out.

Keep in mind, you threw Eduardo under the bus for watching. Okay.

But also, I will say, shots were taken at me, so I feel like turnabout is fair play.

I still don't know what you're talking about, and we're 40 minutes in.

I'm going to get to it now. Chilemi and I, after every podcast, we clean up. We want to leave a good studio, a nice clean studio for the next people coming in. Sure. The other day, I found this in Matt Goraley's chair.

Oh, no.

I used Kleenex.

Well, obviously, I didn't know that was there.

Squirled away in the chair, which I cleaned up.

I have to say that's disgusting.

Matt came at me with my multiple drinks in a previous segment. I didn't come at you. I was just curious about it. I saw this and I was like, Oh, I got him.

I obviously would not have left that there if I knew. I apologize. First of all, Matt is an extremely cleanly person. I am? Cleanly? What? That's not... I can't speak anymore.

We could just say clean person.

No, Well, he is one who cleanly clings to. Matt is a man of cleanness. You are- I barely shower. No, that is- He's trying to help you. No, that is uncharacteristic of Matt, and I'm sure he just forgot it. I find it interesting that you think he came at you for your different drinks because I thought it was just him saying, Hey, what's that all about? But it's a deep wound for you. I didn't realize you were now a ringless golem in your cave.

He clearly came at me.

It's backfired on you, man.

Just like the drink's backfired on you. I knew this was going to happen.

It was hostile. I'm just saying- The way you went at him was a little hostile.

I like to bring people together, but I- You keep saying that, but I don't think you do.

I think it's indicative of a bigger issue, which is we don't really clean up after ourselves that well. That is absolutely true. You especially- I do.

I just miss that.

You have a thousand drinking vessels, and none of them get picked up afterwards.

Okay, let's look at the picture. When you guys say, We got to clear out of this room and make way for the next taping, I'm thinking to myself, This is my building. The only reason this exists is for Conan O'Brien needs a friend. This is my studio. Then suddenly it turned out to be this Airbnb that I get to hang out in for 20 minutes. Then I better get my ass out of here and you better clean up. No, not at all. That's insane.

This is outrageous.

I'm Hearst, and this is Hearst Castle. One, I've got three mugs here. Two mugs. Two are filled with coffee because I drink a lot of coffee. Three mugs. I've also got a tea. And your water. I've also got these Kleenex, which, by the way, I'm more than happy to throw all over the place. I got to clean that up. I There's just tissues everywhere. Listen to me. I didn't claw my way to the top of this business so that I could better get out of here quickly to make way for the other podcast that's coming in, Hanging with Joe Billabie. But first, I better clean up after myself. Let's see now. I got all these little cups. I better take them in. Uh-oh, Eby's coming. I better wash everything thoroughly. No, no, No.

No. Ebi does run a tight ship.

She does. She does. She yels. You are a little scared of her. I am.

And we all are. I'm terrified of Ebi. Erica Brown. I will say Erica Brown. This is her place. She runs it. She's the queen. When she even looks at me, if I'm using one of those metal straws, I know my only thought in my head is not to enjoy my Hailey Bieber smoothie since no longer named the Hailey Bieber smoothie, by the I don't know if there was some... Yeah, I think she got into a fight with... I don't think so. Maybe the contract expired. Oh, wow. It's no longer called the Hailey Bieber Smooth. That means you could get in there.

I want to get in there.

It could be your smoothie. I want to get that smoothie I think I probably have to add something. I'll just say, throw some, I don't know, put a Snickers bar in there and call it the Cone and O'Brien. Put a little creme de menthe in there. I Yeah, my point was, where were we?

I'm saying you're talking a big game about making a mess, but if Erica Brown walks in here, you will clean up after yourself because you're scared a little bit, as we all are.

Here's the thing. Erica Brown, out by the kitchen. If I even see her, I start scrubbing surfaces. You were talking such a big game. No, that's true. But in here, oh, no, I might risk the disapproval of Blake. Fuck that. Fuck that. I hired you when you were a fetish. I was the one that removed your umbilical cord. You still had it attached.

This is crazy because normally I would be defending you. I'm your biggest defender. Now, since you teed me up, I say, You go, boss.

Yeah, you go. No, if you have to do a little cleaning afterwards, Clay. I mean, I've kept you in your faux, goofy watches. That's right. You live in an apartment that's filled with little action figures and posters.

A life-size predator statue?

Yeah. Is that right?

Yeah. Well, one day. Saving up for it.

Saving up, yeah. It was either that or- A wife. Or much needed. Let's see, life or a life-size predator statue. Anyway, Bley, I respect where you're coming from. It's just that you're completely wrong.

I apologize, you and Shils. I'm very conscientious about that thing. It's not like I ever walked in on Keshia peeing or or anything like that.

It was all in good fun. Again, it was all in jest. I really don't care. I just was seeing it as a good opportunity to get you back for the drinks. I also got burned by Konan. You got burned with the drinks, so now we're even.

Listen, the important thing is that if people are hating each other and trying to get each other, we've recreated my childhood. I'm very happy.

I hate how you have pulled the strings to make us all go at each other when we should be going after you. Why Why are we divided? We should be united.

You're right. The devil's greatest trick is making you believe he doesn't exist. Well, anyway, Conor O'Brien needs a friend. The Happy, friendly show by a guy with no inner demons.

And just like that, he was gone.

All right, everybody, clean up after yourselves.

Conan O'Brien needs a With Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Cessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Jeff Ross, and nick Liao. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away. Hey, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Erin Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brenda Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnik. Talent Booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brit Kohn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Konan? Call the Team Coco Hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It, too, could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at siriusxm. Com/konan. If you haven't already, please subscribe to Konan O'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.