Transcript of Tom Pelphrey

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepherd, and I'm joined by Monica Mouse.

Hi.

Today we have, for me, a revelation of last year. For others, not old news because he's been great so many times.

Yes.

But I was exposed to him in Task last year.

Ooh, what a show.

Tom Pelfrey. He's an Emmy-nominated actor. He was the bad guy with a heart of gold in Task. He also was mind-blowing on Ozark, Love and Death, Iron Fist. And Guiding Light at the beginning, and won daytime Emmys.

I probably watched him in Guiding Light because I used to watch that with my grandma.

Was that one of your shows?

It was, it was one of my shows. I probably watched a young him.

If you have not seen Taz, get on it. It streams on HBO right now, and it's just a beautiful show. And then in addition to him, you have Mark Ruffalo, which—

geez Louise, such a good show all around.

Powerhouse. Um, Please enjoy Tom Pelfrey. I feel like this is a very long time coming.

I know, brother. We have so many friends in common.

Well, Zegers for sure.

Zegers.

Who else?

Well, I just feel like from that world there must be more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right? Yeah, I guess I missed— there's no No chance we've ever been in a meeting together, is there? I can't remember, but I did have a panic this morning, like, oh my God, what if we were in a meeting together? Where do you have to be at 12:30? I'm so curious. Be honest.

Something for a photo shoot and some kind of interview, but I don't really know what it is.

Okay, that's just getting carted from place to place.

I just fucking honestly, they tell me where to go, I say okay, that's right, do my best to show up. That's right, that's good.

Yeah, have you had to adopt that strategy?

Because I kind of watched my wife operate that way for years. I was like, I need to know everything I'm doing so far out in advance, like control freak. And then I'd watch her just kind of wake up and figure out what she's doing that day, and it worked out just fine for her. And so slowly I've been like, oh yeah, I'll figure out what I'm doing tomorrow. Have you always been this way, or did you evolve to this?

No, I've kind of always been this way, but to the extreme that it was not great.

Okay, a little detrimental.

Yeah, really just not thinking at all about—

not waking up in interviews, basically, just thinking about tomorrow.

Yeah, but I guess it is a good thing to do to not think too far ahead when you're busy, because then you get a little overwhelmed.

I just produce a bunch of anxiety, obviously, because I'm not in today. I'm focused so much on tomorrow.

Do you feel like you're more prone to have anxiety?

Yeah, you know, I have zero in my waking hours. Like, if you ask me, do you have anxiety? I don't. At night, clearly I do, because I wake up many, many nights a week and just ruminate on stuff that's coming up in the future for an hour. So clearly I do have a anxiety, but when I'm awake, I'm not fearful of it.

It wakes you up from sleep?

Oh yeah, yeah.

Have you ever read Jung? Carl Jung?

Carl Jung? No.

Just so much of it is you use the subconscious. So often in a Jungian session, you'll just talk about your dreams, and I wonder if these things are waking you up in the middle of the night, that there might be a way in there that you're not consciously experiencing it, but maybe there's something deeper.

Yeah, I mean, I was just in Nashville for a week where we have a house, and I don't work there. And I sleep like a baby there. Wow. And I don't ever wake up with anxiety because I had literally nothing to do.

Yeah.

What's your anxiety level?

Not high, not very high. Again, back to the not thinking too much into the future. If anything, in the past— and this is a lot less so recently— but I would feel depression at times. Some people are kind of more one way, some people a little bit more the other.

So just like melancholy?

Yeah, just the kind of sadness sometimes coming out of nowhere, not necessarily attached to anything.

Yeah. And then the future is bad, right? When you're in that state, it's not full of opportunity and hope.

Everything feels bad in that state. Everything just gets kind of gray.

Maybe you're not even thinking about tomorrow or the future. It's just right now is bad or just like feels heavy.

Yeah, it just kind of comes on. And that's an interesting thing to observe. You know, Eckhart Tolle, if you guys read Power of Now. Yeah, that book really changed my life in a lot of ways. But he sort of says even the way you talk to yourself about it, even saying instead of I'm sad, to say I have a sadness in me, to acknowledge it's not who you are and also that it's sort of transitory.

It's temporary.

Yeah. Okay. So Howell Township, New Jersey. This is a suburb of New York City-ish.

Central Jersey. Jersey Shore.

Oh, Jersey Shore.

Bruce Springsteen.

Okay. And then recently we just—

Yes. Charlie Puth.

Charlie Puth.

Okay.

Yes. A claim to fame.

We have a lot of Jersey boys and gals.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How far to New York? From Howell Township, hour 15 with decent traffic. And how close to the Jersey Shore?

Oh, 10-minute drive.

So did you grow up hanging around the boardwalk?

Oh yeah.

Okay. And was it similar to what I watched on MTV? Like there were a lot of guidos with gold chains.

There is a lot of that. But the problem that we had with— what was that show called?

Jersey Shore.

Jersey Shore, right?

Aptly named. Yeah.

The problem we had with that show is all the kids on that show, I think minus one, were all from Long Island.

Yeah, they were very Long Island-y.

Yeah, that's great.

But no, that is kind of the vibe. That's like a Seaside Heights kind of vibe, which I think is where that show was filmed. Depending on the beach you go to, you get a very different flavor, very different color.

Yeah, yeah. What was your little clique in that world? What kind of dudes did you hang out with? I'm 7 years older than you.

Okay.

I think I have some idea of what was happening 7 years behind me.

I was very fortunate. I just was back in New Jersey for a few weeks. I still have some of my best friends that I've truly been friends with since I was 4 years old.

Oh, wow.

So nice.

It's incredible.

Life-saving.

Yes. Such a beautiful thing to be able to have those kind of friends still. And so we were kind of a mixture. There was some who were better at athletics. I eventually obviously get into acting, but everybody was very kind and supportive of one another at a very wholesome Oh, wow.

Okay, good. This isn't one I would have maybe took a guess at.

I went hard left as soon as I went to college.

Okay. Okay.

But before then, it was a pretty nice and peaceful—

Is your brother older or younger than you?

My brother's younger, almost 4 years.

Did he try to pal around like I tried to pal around with my brother?

He did. He followed a lot. Bobby was like the natural athlete. My brother's 6'6".

Oh my goodness.

Star basketball player. Oh, played football, wide receiver. He was in a different mold.

Who looked out for who physically?

Yeah, well, Bobby would always say, even when he was bigger, he would say, I don't mess with Tommy because Tommy's crazy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really vital thing. If you can claim crazy early in your life, it really saves you.

What brand of crazy were you?

Just the kind that if it's going to go there, I don't really care. We'll go all the way.

When you're a boy and you get a sense that even if I win this fight, I'll be walking at some point, I'm going to get hit with a stick or shovel. Assess that that guy is going to—

but there's different types of crazy. There's like, they're gonna just verbally fight you on everything, they're going to get in physical fights, they're going to jump off a roof for no reason. They're, you know, there's so many kinds of you guys.

A lot of brands.

A lot of brands.

I think the root of it is just like a super sensitivity or a fear, not for maybe in that situation, but for me certainly. Yeah, was realizing with a certain amount of demonstration of anger the energy would push everybody back and then you'd get some space.

Yeah. So Bobby is the little brother. Yeah. What did mom and dad do?

Mom was a secretary bookkeeper and dad was kind of like a traveling salesman.

Oh, of what variety? What did he sell? What was his wares?

Coffee filters for a while.

Coffee filters?

I have my coffee here with me. I never leave home without it. So definitely raised a son who's—

loves coffee.

What a niche thing to sell.

I know.

How did he stumble into coffee filters?

I don't know exactly. I just remember sometimes when I was really young, he would come back from overseas. I remember in particular a sweatshirt from New Amsterdam that I tried to wear every day to be worldly. Isn't it wild? The things that are so magic when you're—

yeah, a little true.

And they're tiny.

I know. Yeah.

Yeah.

And they mean so much.

I know.

It is weird. So as you get older, it's like these little snapshots you have of these little things, like that sweatshirt or this thing. It's like, why was it so powerful? You almost want to know.

Well, I think I know. It's like your dad was away. He thought of you.

Yeah.

He got you something. That's what it means, you know, like, oh, my dad was out on his own. I mean, no one's thinking about that consciously, but that's what it means. It's like a connection to him.

For sure.

What was your relationship with him?

We got closer when I got older. My parents got divorced when I was still pretty young. We still got to see my dad. He coached my basketball team. God bless him. I played all the sports and I was terrible at all of them. But, you know, he's the coach and I'm his son and he had to play me. I was good at like fouling out. But when I got older, we started to get closer. I think that when you sort of become a man or start to, the world takes on much more gray, less black and white. You start to understand a little bit. You start to get a taste, a little bit of you lose this sort of childish simplicity or naivete, and I think I could meet him there on a more even level. And we started to connect then. Unfortunately, he passed away when I was 25.

So 57.

Yeah.

Yeah. So fucking young.

I know.

Did he die of cancer? No.

Uh, heart attack. He passed away in his sleep.

Were there signs of it? Was that a complete shock or was he already struggling with heart disease?

There was no signs, no warnings. He did not take the best care of himself, so I don't think he'd been to a doctor in years.

Did he have any addiction stuff? I mean, who are we to judge? My dad, thank God, identified as an alcoholic and got sober, so it's very easy for me to say.

I don't know. I mean, yes, he liked to drink. He would never touch hard alcohol.

Oh, okay.

He was like wine.

Only beer.

Oh, beer.

Not wine.

It's New Jersey in the '90s. A man didn't drink wine.

I don't know, you could have been cultured. You went to Amsterdam.

God knows what he's doing in Amsterdam. Did you have stepdads?

No.

Oh great, good for you.

Yeah, it was my mom really. Looking back now, being a father now, I always appreciated what she did, but like just looking back now, knowing even just having one kid, and I have an amazing partner and we have help and all of that, my mom raised two boys, two wild animals on on her own while she worked full-time. I don't know where to put that in my head. Yeah, I really don't. I don't even understand how you do that. I know how you do that. And even if you were somehow able to like white-knuckle that, how it doesn't make you like twisted in some way. And it didn't.

And I'm imagining too, financial stress, right? It's not like you guys were rich or anything.

My dad made sure that the money thing was fine. We were by no means rich or anything, but we also weren't in any kind of poverty. And there was stress for sure, but it wasn't like the overwhelming the overwhelming theme of everything.

Yeah, I took my daughters, just me, a year ago right now to Hawaii for spring break, the three of us. In day 3 of the trip, I called my mom and I was like, "I don't know how you took the three of us on trips." And those are girls. And they're girls.

To be fair, pretty put-together girls.

Not David and Dax, right? Yeah. The fighting. Because they're bickering, and after 3 days of it, I'm like, "This is nuts. Why did I do this?" And I'm like, "My mom took us on 20, 30 vacations in cars." Yeah, I know. Yeah, just sitting in a car for 21 days. 21 hours with 3 kids driving to Florida.

I know. Would you ever take the train? Oh, I don't know if you would have been able to do that. We took the train down once to Disney World.

Oh, you did? Oh, magic. Oh, tell me.

Well, it's just an overnight train ride.

As a kid, it was—

yeah, recline the seat and there's a dining car. Oh yeah, that's when I started reading Lord of the Rings. Weird, I haven't thought about this in so long. I wanted to read Lord of the Rings. I went to the library and I didn't understand the order, so I took out the second book first.

Oh no! Great place to start.

So I'm reading The Two Towers on the train down to Florida. It's one of my happiest memories.

Were you a reader?

Oh yeah, voracious. Later on in life when I got into certain programs, they would call it alcoholic reading.

Is that your new addiction?

I loved reading from a young age. Just huge books, getting lost in them. I don't think my mom understood that Stephen King is kind of like a low-key pervert in his books.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? It doesn't show up in the movies. So if you just know movies, it's like, oh, it's horror. But then you read the books. I'm like 11 years old reading all these.

My gateway into reading was Bukowski. So similar. I was just like, no. Oh yeah. No. Yeah. Because I didn't start reading until like high school. Did you read Bukowski when you were younger?

I mean, when I was in college.

That's what turned me on to reading. I was like, half these stories about this guy taking a shit. Or getting drunk or fucking some stranger or getting in a bar fight. And at 14, 15, I'm like, oh, this guy's a hero.

These are how powerful books are. You became that. If you had read like Anne of Green Gables, you'd be so different.

We wouldn't be sitting here.

I read other books and I became it too.

So I guess we are.

It doesn't matter.

Yes. Some people are just destined to go somewhere. Were you an introvert or were you super social?

I've heard the term extroverted introvert. Is that getting too cute?

Or ambivert, I think people are now saying.

Ambivert?

I think that's the term.

It just means both, which I—

Both. Like you have periods of both. You can be extroverted and then you got to recharge.

Right. They say how you recharge is what you are. I definitely recharge alone, so I don't get energy from being around a ton of people, but I like being around people too.

But I think Kaylee told us that when you guys met, you were living like in the woods in upstate New York or something. Yeah.

Like you and a dog in the woods.

Halfway up a mountain on a dirt road. He's very introverted. I would go crazy. I would have to figure out something social.

I'm definitely an introvert, but I've also gotten more balanced in that I enjoy being around people.

Is she a bit of a gateway for you for that?

Oh my God, she's like the total opposite of me.

That's so fun. What a good team.

Well, I'll tell you, I never before in life understood what it actually meant to have a partner. What a powerful thing. And the more I receive from her, the more I see that she's sort of gone out of her way to either understand me or love me or both. The only response, and it's quite a naturally occurring response, is to want to reciprocate, to want to give it back. Like, how can I be better? Where can I understand you better and show up a little better? And you have that experience, like, this is wild. Yeah.

I was thinking a lot this morning. Both times I've interviewed her, I'm like, this gal and Kristen, there is so much overlap in the Venn diagram. There's the obvious stuff. There's like this animal obsession and there's this kind of carefree spirit and things will work out and don't worry. A lot of that stuff. But what I think I really isolated this morning when I was mulling it over is Kristen has insane self-esteem and confidence. And the benefit of that self-esteem and confidence is kind of mind-blowing. I could have never really anticipated what that was. And Kaylee strikes me as that same way, 100%. She'll say what she wants to say. She's not overthinking who thinks what. She's just confident. That's a powerful thing in a partner, isn't it?

No, it's a really powerful thing. When I was first around her, seeing how much she believed in herself and was just fully in her own body, in her own way, confident in what she was doing— there was times I was literally like, are you allowed to do that?

Yeah, yeah.

I'm like tearing myself apart and I'm questioning myself and doubting myself. And she's just like, this is who I am, this is how I do things, and I have no problem with that. And I know what I am and I know what I'm not, and I have no problem with that either. That was wild, you know, especially in the beginning of coming from a place of trying to heal this sense of like, how do I be all things to all people? I've gotten over that a lot more recently.

Yeah, and we just had this expert on that was telling us about different attachment styles and like a secure attachment style and I think when you're really insecure, you're worried the person you're with is going to leave you or you're not worthy of them. And then, so because you're afraid of that, you're looking for a lot of data to either confirm or deny that. So they're evaluating the relationship a lot. So maybe if Kaylee was insecure, it wouldn't be easy for her to be generous to you and benevolent the way she's been to you, because she would think, well, I'm giving and he's not reciprocating, and does that mean this? As opposed to like, I'm great and I'm gonna just pour it on you. I don't think that's a loss of my power or a loss of my leverage, or I don't know, I just think there's so much that grows out of having a partner that's kind of confident.

100%. But I also think that over time, we've learned that she does have insecurities in other places and where I might be strong and secure. And that's kind of amazing too, where you realize like, okay, we're actually kind of balanced here, even though it just shows up in different ways. So where I'm strong, I can help you. And where you're strong, you can help me.

Those are the best.

It's wild. By the time we met, I was 39 years old, almost 40 30 years old to go that long without really understanding what partnership could mean. Yes. You know, I'm grateful.

Were you filling each other's gaps and you make each other better?

Yeah. And as much as you've known who you are, how much do you feel like since the really knowing who you are that you've also changed?

You've changed a ton.

Yeah, I've changed a ton.

That's beautiful though.

Yeah.

I feel like that's the real knowing who you are, when you know who you are on a deep enough level that you're allowing yourself to change versus this is who I am. And then you're muscling your identity.

I totally agree with you. And I think that's a faux belief in yourself. If you think you have to be rigid to protect this identity.

It actually comes from insecurity. If you're 100% attached to your, like, belief on anything, really, if you're just like, this is 100% what it is and it's very black and white, that actually comes from insecurity because you're afraid, well, what happens if I change my mind on this? Like, who will I be?

Yeah, you'll be on your identity.

Yeah, is at stake.

Right, right.

I also think I like a strong partnership, very similar to the program, which is like, I'm not good at you telling me what to do. I always buck against that. I'm terrible at asking for mentorship or advice. But if I can watch you navigate a situation and you're sharing about it, and I can just be over here watching, and I go, oh yeah, I have that same character defect. You did what? Oh, and what was the outcome? If I can observe you, I can grow and learn a lot. I do best if I'm just I'm just allowed to observe you. So, yeah, to observe Kristen moving through life for the last 19 years, doing it completely different than me, and then getting these different results, I think that's helped me enormously grow towards those things.

Yeah, almost like learning or taking advice through the attraction of, like, a good example versus somebody sitting you down and telling me what to do.

Because my insecurities go like, well, I should know that already, and now I'm gonna act like I do know it.

Nobody likes being told what to do.

I don't know. I see people like, go Do you like being directed? I feel like you would.

Oh, that depends.

Okay. Yeah. Tell me if the director's good.

Yeah.

Fincher's directing you.

Fincher brings out the "yes, sir" in me, you know? Yeah. He brings out the "bring it on. I'll do anything you say. I'll run through the wall for you." All that stuff. And there's a lot of different ways that directors can be beautiful and really good at what they do. I was having this conversation the other day, but I think ultimately, well, for anybody, probably in all things, but certainly when it comes to what we do, is, is that person themselves? Do they know who and what they are? And are they coming from that place? Meaning David would direct how David's going to direct, and Jeremiah, who I just worked with on Task, will direct how Jeremiah is going to direct. And Jeremiah is just this sweet angel human being.

What a show.

Just beaming love and this gentle, kind of very whispery— But they are both who they are, and their power comes from being in how they are. And not trying to do what somebody else would do.

Yes.

They know their point of view and they have one.

Yeah.

I mean, probably just in life in general, but when you really encounter that in somebody, you sort of know it on the level of like intuition.

Yeah.

And then you respond to it. It feels very safe. There's nothing that's coming from them that feels like a lie or a insecurity being revealed.

Right. Yeah, that's so true.

Very true.

When did you want to start acting? I know you went to Rutgers.

I had a high school teacher that changed my life. Oh, really?

Who was that?

Steve Kazakov. I auditioned for the play. I couldn't sing or dance, got a little chorus part, and he came in and he was genuinely scarier than the football coaches.

Oh, and it was like, you're like, who's this?

Who is this guy? Yeah, but he took it dead serious.

Yeah, good for him. What a gift.

What a gift. And he spoke to all of us like we were paid professionals. It was incredible. I think if I hadn't had that experience, I don't know if I would have done it, because what that experience gives you is an insane work ethic. If what you're doing is very important, he also drilled into us, you are a part of something greater. So even if you were the lead in the play, you didn't have to rehearse that day, you stayed and helped build the sets. There wasn't a question about that. And so it builds the sense of, we're all here to do something that's bigger than any one of us could do by ourselves. And you're a team, and you support everybody else on the team.

That's lovely.

It's so good.

Incredible.

You loved it. I heard you talking with somebody about how all in you were in that the school was 8 to 6. You were also in two different other theater groups. You were doing shit at night.

Class until 6, and then there'd be a main stage show, and then you'd work on that from 7 to 11. You'd either act in the show or you were running some part of the backstage to learn how to do that. And then from 11:00 PM to 1:00 AM, We had two different black box theaters, and at that time they would give us access to them. So whatever we wanted to do, we could. And we never were not doing something from 11 to 1 AM. So we'd write our own plays, we'd direct them, we'd cast them with our friends, we'd hang the lights, we'd make the music cues, and we'd rehearse them for a month or so. And then we would put on the show on a weekend that we didn't have the main stage show. So we were constantly layers in of working on multiple things simultaneously and also learning how to do everything. Ourselves.

Yeah, and never getting fatigued, just being energized for the whole thing, ever.

The things I could get away with back then when I was 20 years old. I mean, it's like wild.

What school was it?

Rutgers. Oh yeah, until today I didn't even know Rutgers was New Jersey State University.

Oh yeah, I just thought it was a private—

yeah, I guess I thought— I mean, it's got a real prestige.

It does.

Rutgers.

Does it?

Well, yeah, it's not New Jersey University. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is pretty cool. Yeah, pretty rare.

It's very rare for a state university to have a name aside from Colorado State, right?

I never thought about that.

I think— I can't think of any other ones. I know, same. Yeah, I was like, oh, Rutgers must be like a private.

It's Tulane. Tulane's probably private, actually.

Probably. It was just there and I should know that.

Yeah, I don't know that.

What What is that?

Nicotine. Would you like some?

No, it's just—

those are a spray if you prefer. Lozenges.

And did you ever smoke?

Oh, like a motherfucker.

And you quit?

Yeah, 20 years ago, 21 years ago.

I have 2 cigarettes at night.

Good for you. That's my dream. Wouldn't you agree, as someone who used to drink, the dream is 2 Jack and Dyes a night? If I could do that, that would be—

I know that I'm one of us because you even say that and I gotta knock myself. Because in that regard, I could never imagine. It's funny now, like, in retrospect, but when I would be drinking, it used to, like, pain me and genuinely confuse me. Be out with somebody drinking at a bar or whatever, and somebody would, like, leave half their— I used to always be like, what?

It was as crazy to me as someone trying to eat their food anally. Like, what do you— why did you order it?

What?

The medicine's still in there. Like, what? No, exactly. What are we doing here?

Is there not a purpose in what we're doing here? We're trying to get obliterated.

Yes. And that's the solution. You can't leave half of it. No, that was maddening. And then having that debate in your head, like, am I gonna be a scumbag and say, like, are you gonna finish that? Which I ultimately always would.

Sure.

Oh, you know, let's not leave this. Yeah, I don't care what the fuck they ordered. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't be left. I said this last night, my family and I have discovered this taco place on the street with hard shell tacos, and we like them so much. As I'm eating them, I'm panicked, you know? And I got 6 last night. Halfway through, I was like, not enough, I didn't get enough. And then other people ordered some and there was one person left one and I was like, is that going to go? I go, dude, this is just like cocaine, which is I stopped doing cocaine when there's no cocaine.

Yeah.

Not I'll stop now. And these tacos, there would never be a taco left on the table. I don't care how many were ordered. I will have them till they're gone.

Yeah.

Even though they're never gone.

Well, they were gone.

No, they're not.

You can get them again tomorrow. The next day.

Literally anytime you want, you can get those.

It's like addiction is scarcity.

I mean, I drink a lot— well, frequency, I drink a lot— but I'm always leaving half. Sometimes I drink half a martini and I'm like, you know what, I want wine now. And then I'll leave that, I'll drink some of the wine. For me, it's just so social. I mean, you want a little buzz, obviously, let's be real here. Yeah, but obliteration is not the goal.

That sort of gives you an insight into the mental illness of it, because as we're saying this, I know at the time I I thought you were the one who had a problem.

Yes.

And I really did. I'm not trying to be funny.

Why are they even doing this?

Like, why are you doing this?

Yeah.

Like, are you doing this for a show? Just don't drink at all.

Yeah, right.

Knock it off. You're not taking this seriously.

Interesting. I kind of agree that there is something weird about that too. Like, well, if you're just gonna have a little bit, why do you need it? I get that.

The rationale.

I get that too. Yeah.

The other thing I think you can quickly tell how people are part is I'll watch a movie like Leaving Las Vegas and I go, yeah, man, that looks so good. I mean, most people, non-addicts, are watching that going, that looks terrible, scary. And I'm watching going like, yeah, man, to finally throw in the towel and just go like, I'm going all the way and I'm not gonna look back, weirdly is still appealing. I mean, I'm not gonna do it, but I watch it and I can remember just finally going, I don't give a fuck. I mean, so much of the addiction, I think, at least for me, was like medicating this mountain I had on my shoulders, like, I gotta accomplish this and I gotta accomplish that. I'm like, don't become this, I'm a fucking loser. And when I would just surrender to a 3-day bender, I was letting that go.

Of course.

I was like, okay, we're not gonna be a fucking star, we're not gonna be a published author, we're not gonna be a good boyfriend, we're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna drive responsibly, we're just gonna be a piece of shit, and I'm gonna let go of this battle. And there's a lot of relief in that.

And where have you found your relief? Where do you find it now?

First of all, I don't have it as much. I have children. All right. You know, now for 3 years, anything we thought that was important is a fucking joke. I know your movie works or it doesn't, or your show's good or bad.

100%.

Okay. Well, you know, it doesn't matter anymore, which is liberating. But even before that, years of sobriety and just having a partner and building other aspects of my life that weren't me trying to be spectacular. Or relief from that. Can you relate to that pressure?

Of course. And I had to give that up over time in sobriety, realizing that that was just as detrimental as the drinking was, truly. Because it becomes like, who am I? And if this is my identity, if this is how I'm evaluating myself, then I'm always going to fall short. Be careful what game you're playing, because depending on the game, there is no way to win. There is no top. And even if you get to the top, you can't stay there.

You have to sustain now the top. Well, it's even harder, probably.

Genuinely, I would imagine so. Just seeing how it goes sometimes where you do something and it's good and it comes out at the right time and you sort of whoosh and it goes up, you're like, that's a wild confluence of many things happening at exactly the right time coupled with we did a good enough job and boom, it kind of takes off. You're like, there's no way to control that.

Yeah, you can't even replicate it.

If we could, people would do it all the time. Clearly we can't. You have an industry with a bunch of people trying to figure out how to do it and they can't do it with any consistency. So it is out of your control.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.

And then you are powerless. And then for me, it was like, okay, well then what is the identity that I want to build my house on? Because for years it was actor, actor, actor, and then of course not succeeding. And even if you were succeeding, it wasn't succeeding enough. How are you anything but a failure if that's the identity? It was just constant failure, or less of a failure, more of a failure, whatever It's insanity.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking which platform you watch that new show on— so frustrating. 15 minutes later, you've logged into 7 apps, reset 2 passwords, and still haven't found it. Yeah, checking first is smart. Smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Co. and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. And look, I've only gotten to the top of one mountain, and it was this one. And the second you get there, there is 10 minutes of elation, and then you go like, oh right, there's only now one trajectory. There's only one movement left. It's down. And that is almost way scarier than the other thing, than the climbing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is mine to lose now. Oh, fuck. Yeah. New round of— I wasn't prepared for this. I thought I was going to get here and just feel fucking carefree all the time. No, now I just know I have something to lose.

And I think that's where when you can start to visualize or see these things not as concepts, but as the real energy that drives you through your life and decide, do I want to play that? No, that's not where I want to build my house. That's not what I'm putting on the altar. So I will play that, but it won't mean identity. Yeah, it won't mean who I am. It will not mean my value. I'll do it weirdly. Then you can do it with more freedom, right?

Such a mindset.

It is. I became a million times better actor when I when I decided I am done identifying myself with being an actor.

Yeah. I don't think telling people— I mean, we have to tell them, and it's good, but you have to get there on your own.

Yeah, you can't sidestep it.

I don't think you can hear it and be like, "Oh, okay, I just won't care." You care!

You know? Like, you care. It's a hard trick. It's a hard mental trick. Back to the kid thing, it's like, you receive all this love. They have no clue whether you were good or bad on tasks. They don't know what HBO is. It doesn't mean anything. And you're experiencing this love because you're you and you're available and you're connected and present. That's all it takes to be worthy of love.

I know.

It's nuts, right?

I'm a crybaby too.

I'm on a vergas. Oh yeah, I'm on a vergas. I'm in my crying phase too. Let's let it rip. It's so good.

It is the gift of getting to be a father to finally understand what unconditional love is both ways.

Like, here we go.

Yeah, but there's nothing she could ever do where I wouldn't love her with all of my being.

Yeah, and there's no accomplishment that would make you love her more.

Amen, brother. And I also know, like you said, the feeling when I walk into the room, she is excited to see me. She does not give a fuck about anything I did or not do.

He just wants you to be there.

He's here.

Yeah, he's here. Presence. That's it.

Ah, man, what a beautiful gift. Yeah.

I don't have kids, so I wish people would be able to have that without it. I mean, that's the goal, right? The kids are the reason you're able to feel it, but we should all be feeling like that. Our presence is enough to be loved and worthy.

I do too, but there is a certain reality of the marketplace of friendship and partnership, right? It's like people shop in your echelon. Jocks are friends with jocks. Burnouts are friends with burnouts. Like, so to deny that all this stuff is real is also not true. It's like, status is a real thing. People are attracted to people who other people are attracted to. All these things are real. But the real relationships, the ones with your family, the ones with my childhood friend, he doesn't like me more now that I've gotten successful, right? Maybe he lies, you know, I'm distracted But those ones are the ones you kind of got to foster or have because the other place is a bit of a marketplace. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

I see what you mean, but I guess I'm saying more in the general sense, not like love from a specific person. It's like I'm someone worthy of love walking around, not to get someone's approval, but just like walking around on earth like, yeah, I'm a person, so I'm worthy of this.

Yes.

Yeah. And you are.

Kids give you that.

Yeah.

But we all should have that. That. It's hard though.

We all have it inherently, and I think we forget it, and I think we don't show it to each other, especially nowadays.

It's the worst timing for that, I feel like.

Well, it's interesting because what I experienced with Matilda, my daughter, makes me— and maybe this is the way my brain works, but you probably think it too— I immediately start applying it out. I start thinking like, that's someone's daughter, that's someone's son. Once you know that and then you see the ripples, you're like, well, if this me and her, then how sacred this is applies to everyone, everywhere, all the time.

I love that. I don't think everyone's doing that. I mean, maybe I need tricks.

Look, I don't start with great intentions, and I don't start with love and kindness and benevolence. So I have tricks. Like, that's one. Like, yeah, that's someone's kid. A kid's being annoying. You see it all the time. Kids around other kids. One kid's a fucker. And then you just go like, I know what the dad feels like. That's the most special little girl in the world. I know. She's picking her nose. She shit her pants.

She just hit someone.

And if that's my daughter, I'm like, fuck yeah, girl, let it rip. You know, my other hack is this is so indulgent, but armchairs are the nicest fucking human beings. Monica and I constantly do this. People listen to the show are just across the board the nicest fucking people. We've met so many of them that if I'm in traffic and I'm getting mad, I have to go like, I imagine that's an armchair, and I just completely immediately drop the whole thing. But I need tricks. Unfortunately, it's not my nature to be like, yeah, this guy's got good intentions. Let's give him a shot. Not my nature either, brother.

Yeah, that's the thing is we have to work on all this. Like, left to your own just natural devices, it doesn't usually turn out the most beneficial for all involved.

Yeah, we're trying to get ours and protect ourselves and all those things.

Trying to not do that. That's just the only thing we can do is try not to. And then you can, if you're like, you know what, I want to try to see this in a better light, then you can.

Yeah, well, the part of the miracle is even being aware of what you're doing in the first place. Goes back to that Eckhart Tolle book, reading that and him saying that over half the battle is won the second you're aware that there's even something happening, that there's even something to change, that there's even something you don't like, that there's even something you're battling. Because at least I can relate. When I was drinking and stuff, I could make jokes about, oh, I'm an alcoholic. I didn't understand until I understood. And once I understood, it changed. I didn't really understand until I understood. And that sounds silly.

Silly.

It even sounded silly to me, 3 weeks sober, looking back, being like, how is this a revelation to you? This is so obvious.

I'm dying to know if we have the same experience. So my understanding is what, you probably drank through college and it was fun, you were successful. Yeah. Then you got on this soap and you got 2 Daytime Emmys. That was 2 years out of college, right?

Out of college.

Where were we at ego-wise? I have 2 different thoughts. One would be like, if I was 20, I was making money fucking doing this, and you were nominating me, I would be on fire. But also, I wasn't a thespian I'm a comedian from high school who went to college, and I don't know if you had some, like, I need to be doing Broadway. I'm not sure. What was that part like?

I did have that. I had the, I want to be doing Broadway and blah, blah, blah. But I also thought that I was fantastic and I was being shown all the evidence of how great I was and that the world would be rolling out the red carpet when I left the soap. The great shock to my ego, leaving the soap and everyone didn't have a red carpet rolled out for me.

You didn't have 80 scripts lined up being offered to you? They didn't bring a pallet of scripts? Over of offers.

Not only did I not have any scripts being offered, but the things I was desperately trying to get, I couldn't even get.

Do you remember what actor you wanted to be at that moment? Who was your—

at that point, Sean Penn. Yeah, I mean, Jack Nicholson's always been my favorite. He'll always be my favorite. He's a Jersey boy, grew up 15 minutes from where I grew up. I mean, he's—

talk about a dude who knows himself.

Oh man, more than any other actor, I think I always watch him with a bit of a smile on my face. Like, it just makes me happy to watch him do almost anything. Clint anymore. No, at that time though, it would have been Sean Penn. Like, Sean Penn in college, that was like actor's actor. Wanted to know everything about Sean Penn. Look at Sean Penn in Mystic River and then watch Milk. Even some of the best actors, there's like an essence, and that essence to me permeates what they do almost regardless of what they're doing. Even if they do two things that are equally amazing and genius, there's a similarity in essence. Sean Penn doing Mystic River and then Sean Penn in Milk, I'm like, that's not the same human being. Where's the vibration that, like, even if I close my eyes and my ears, somehow I can feel Daniel Day-Lewis is in the room? You can kind of feel that about Sean Penn too. And then he does something that's like a bit of a cur— sweet and low down. You're like, wow, he like changed his own rhythm.

Yeah. Can I tell you something? You have that.

Whoa.

You really had that. I was watching Task Force I was like, "That's that guy?" Like, it was shocking. Such a transformation. Wow.

You've hit the mark you were going for. Okay, so you wanted to be Sean Penn, but you're getting all this love. It has to be related. It coincides as well. That ends right when your dad dies too. These have to be a kind of a confluence of—

Yeah, it was actually wild timing. And this is why sometimes real stories are stranger than fiction in the sense of come off the soap and just really crash into the brick wall.

Wall.

The drinking was always kind of out of control, but I always had structure. I realized looking back, I'd had structure straight through high school, college— college only a few months off— into the soap. Now the soap, I never missed a day. I was never unprepared regardless of how insane I was. So the soap was amazing structure. It's 5 days a week.

It's like the hardest job in acting, right?

It's labor-intensive for sure.

You're doing like 20 pages a day or— oh yeah, 30 pages For the audience, you're doing 4 pages a day on a normal show.

The soap itself is filming 60 pages a day or 50 because commercial break. So you're doing an hour of television every single day.

Crazy.

Every single day.

Love it. It's impossible.

It's insane. Unless the light fell on your head, you're getting one take. You know what I mean?

There's just literally not enough time. If they have a different angle on someone else, maybe they'll keep the take where you got hit in the head with it.

Yeah, well, and they can because they have 3 cameras, at least back then, proscenium. Film style, 3 cameras, and they're live editing in the booth. So out of the corner of your eye, you could see if camera 1, the red light comes on, you know, now it's on you and all that kind of stuff.

I feel like this is incredible training in so many ways.

Amazing. I'd never been in front of a camera before.

The technical aspect of the job, which is hard to pick up if you've only done theater and stuff. Also just memorizing fucking dialog, right? You're doing 20 pages a day.

A total muscle. Because when I first got there, it took me 2 weeks to learn 10 pages. And by the end, just as like a bet, we would do these character episodes where our character would be in the entire episode. So again, 55 pages, whatever. When it got time to be mine, they were like, do you want to do it in one day? I said yes, and I did. Yeah, and I knew what I was doing. But that's a crazy muscle, but you can exercise it. It is wild though, isn't it, how much your brain will adapt and morph into where you need it to be strong?

It's shocking. Okay, so all that's going on.

So all that's going on. So I get out of the soap, the red carpet isn't rolled out. It's also suddenly the structure gets pulled, which at the time I wasn't thinking like, oh, I've had structure, now I'm going into no structure, completely unprepared for no structure.

This is why all the retired athletes get depressed. They've had this structure for their whole life.

Totally. So everything goes off the rails. Devastated, depression. This sounds so self-indulgent, but it's just the truth. This is how I felt. And then about a year of that, and then my dad dies. That really rocked me. I hadn't known anyone who had died that was close to me who wasn't very, very old before my dad.

Dead.

And again, it was a surprise, and he's my father. And that sadness, I realized, like, oh, what was I being sad about before?

Right? You almost felt shame.

Shame. But also it just, like, shocked me into, like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, there's real things, you know? Oh my gosh. But that, that experience was wild and something that no one had talked about before, or at least I hadn't paid attention to or read about or anything. But my dad died. There was but there was just also like this terrible fear. I just felt like I was on the edge of the abyss, like it brought my own mortality, everything rushing at me in a way. It was also this realization that unfortunately, probably too many people have this realization much younger than I was, but that nothing is guaranteed. And whatever you think is there for sure that makes you feel safe, it's not.

Like the anvil of impermanency.

Hit you? Yes. I was not in any place mentally, spiritually, physically to grapple with or to understand or to have a practice round, and it really rocked me.

What year did you get sober?

October 1st, 2013. It was 6 years later, give or take.

What was your trajectory?

It was like a slow burn. I hadn't worked in over a year. I was in a considerable amount of debt broke, worried about not being able to pay my rent, all the things. The last thing I was hanging my hat on ego-wise was a relationship I had with a woman who was very successful and beautiful. And yeah, yeah, like, well, she chose me.

I bullied myself quite a bit that way too.

That's what we're doing before we know how to do anything else, is just like, where is my value? Uh, there, there. Because those are all falling away now. But that ended. And then I just remember being in my apartment in Brooklyn at the time and just being so crushed, felt so worthless. And, you know, at that time I didn't realize what it was until later, but I can articulate it now. Just like the constant level of this fear, anxiety, shame, guilt. It's like a buzzing constant. How do you boil the frog? Slowly. That buzzing builds slowly over time. You don't realize how deafening it had become until you're freed of it, hopefully freed of it. So you're just in this constant state of this anxiety, almost paralysis fear. It's this shrunken—

and you think that's normal.

Absolutely. That's part of the problem. Again, to the awareness of it, like, you just think that's normal because that's the way you've been slowly living more and more and more. Like, out of the blue, in my apartment in Brooklyn, still to this day don't fully understand this, into my brain, read The Power of Now.

Where'd that come from, huh?

Yeah, but I was like, okay, I knew I had I'm going to do that. But I don't know where that came from. You're very strange. And thank God.

Yes. This is before your phone could have heard you.

True. The algorithm.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I didn't even have a smartphone back then.

The universe smartphone. Yeah.

So I go, I go get the book. I literally read the first 4 pages and no exaggeration, I throw the book across the room. Rage.

Why?

Well, I didn't know exactly why, but I went on online. Is that Cartolians?

Insane.

And of course, he's like the one person you can't find any evidence of him being insane. My buddy Rhett, I called him, I got his voicemail. I said, yo, bro, do you know anything about this motherfucking Eckhart Tolle? Like, is he supposed to be insane? And for a week, I wouldn't touch that.

I never left that zone. I read the first 3 pages of that book, and I go, oh, it's another guy claiming to have another otherworldly experience that I'll never have. And now he's going to share the truth with me that only he received from the heavens. It's fucking religion.

Religion.

It's the same old fucking thing. And fuck this guy. And I never went back and I never called a friend. Jackson, isn't he sitting on a bench somewhere? And he has, baby, I'm going to bring you a copy of the book. I'm like, oh, this guy's a prophet. And another guy who received some metaphysical signal.

What? You do that here all the time. Tell me you're not on a bench. You're not saying it came to you via the clouds. But you are on here talking about your experience and lessons you've learned through your experience that not everyone else has had.

Right. True.

That we hope people will hear and take and live by.

Great point. My delineation is— Thank you.

You make a stop there. That was a great point.

His was otherworldly.

You're right. You're dead right. And this dumb little distinction I'm making is his was otherworldly.

But to some people, yours is otherworldly. They're like, I don't know what that's like. I don't know what those experiences are.

This is very fair criticism, Monica.

I'm just saying it is a really interesting take. No, I know, I know. Well, for me, yeah, yeah, okay, you got there. As crazy as I was and am, after a week I was like, bro, you're gonna throw a book across the room, you need to read that book. I literally threw it, by the way. So I was like, why is that making you— what triggered you? Well, this is what I realized later, but then I started reading the book again and I realized realized very quickly what triggered me was everything he said was the truth, and that meant everything I was doing was wrong. And I don't like that. Yeah, yeah, I still don't like it. Yeah, yeah, but it was painful. It was just too much. Why did I throw the book? Because the higher me knew in that moment that reading that book meant my life would change forever.

You were gonna—

and I didn't want to change.

I didn't want it, and it was going to be uncomfortable uncomfortable, and you're gonna have to grow.

Yeah, because I think on some level we all understand that being fully, truly exposed to the truth, things are going to change. And that sickness in us, that thing in me, as miserable as I was, is like, uh-uh, we don't want to change.

Bad things like this, it's bad enough.

I think how terrifying it is to change needs to be given more prominence to understand why it is difficult for people to do. I think that gets downplayed on a level because I I like to talk in big language sometimes because I think these things are big and the feelings with them are big. And if we use small language, we kind of downplay it. But I think when we change, when we make a big change especially, you die and you are reborn. Because the you, the me that was drinking on that day did die. It's terrifying. Yeah, the terror is, well then, who am I?

Exactly.

The terror was, what am I going to do on Thanksgiving? What am I going to do on Christmas? How am I ever going to go on a date What is a vacation?

Yeah.

What is a celebration?

How am I going to last longer than 1 minute in the sack if I don't have 3 beers in me? I'll never fuck again, I guess.

I never thought I'd do anything again.

Are your friends?

Am I going to watch football? Are any of my friends going to want to hang out with me? What am I going to do with my friends if they do hang out with me?

Yeah.

It's your whole life at that point.

Everything. Because it has permeated. It has got its tentacles in every single thing. How am I going to go see a play without a flask in my pocket?

Pocket.

All the things. How am I going to grieve? How am I going to mourn? How am I going to celebrate? Celebrate was huge.

Yes.

That was more of a trigger than almost anything.

I'd get a job when I was sober. What do I do? I go, I'm going to eat 2 pizzas. That became my— like, we're going to get fucked up. Yeah, it's going to be on pizza.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember going on vacation with my girlfriend the first year of sobriety. It had been going well. It was the first time I made it past 3 months, and I was like, coming up on a or maybe a half a year. And we showed up in Mexico and I was like, oh no, I have not taken a vacation in 12 years. Wow. Where step one isn't drop your bag in the room, go get a drink, and then everything unfolds. Yep. Drop my bag and do what? Yeah, I won't go home, I think. Yeah. What did you do?

Yeah, what did you do?

I sat at the pool and stared at people. So fucking judgmental. I'm like looking at this one guy and he's just a slob and camped, and I was like, this fucker can control his drinking and I can't? This guy can drink by the pool? Like, I hated this guy. I just white-knuckled it. The hotel, a fucking Diet Coke is $12, but when we got into the room, they had given us like a fifth of tequila that they brewed there. I'm like, oh, of course the fifth's fucking free and a Diet Coke's $12. I was just like, I was gonna explode. I couldn't get off that vacation quick enough. Now I love vacation. Boy, it took a minute.

No, I can relate to that.

So you read Power Now, which, by the way, my father was obsessed with Power Now. That might be in the mix too for me. Okay, okay. Yeah, he wore the last 12 years of his life, he had a little charm on his gold necklace that was now the clock. The now clock. Yeah, he's obsessed with it. Wow. But you read that, how does that lead to then sobriety?

I read that over the course of like a month and a half. I would go down to McGorlick Park in Brooklyn every evening. I wasn't working at the time. I had plenty of time on my head. It was me and my dog, so we had plenty of time. Go down when the sun was setting and just read part of the the book, kind of watch the sun through the trees and sit and breathe. And wasn't exactly meditating because I didn't know how, but just kind of being there and feeling the stillness. And then this dawning awareness of like, oh, this feels really good. Everything he's saying is true. Every part of my body is responding to what he's saying in a way that's like beyond my intellect. Doing yoga on these days, eating better, then have plans I don't even want to go, go, drink. 3 days, I can't even touch the book. I don't go to the park. I don't do yoga. I don't eat well. Over the course of a month and a half, again, so much of his book is about awareness, being present so you can be aware. The awareness is dawning, like, whoa, what happens when I drink is very shocking.

It's like vibrating out beyond the drinking itself. It's really like kind of damaging everything. And now I can see it. And then I was walking to an audition one day in the city, and it felt like I got struck in the head with a lightning bolt. And again, this sounds comedic. I guess it is comedic, but just, oh, I have a drinking problem.

Even though you had been saying to all your friends you were drunk.

These are strange truths that we might only be able to understand.

And how did you know to go to a meeting?

My experience with that was a little bit different as well. It took me a long time, really. I mean, I went to a meeting early on, but it took me a long time to really understand even what the meetings were with Eckhart. And he was using teachings from the Bible of Jesus. I had a relationship with Jesus, what he was, what I felt like he was when I was a kid, that had gone away. And so my sobriety was really in that. The obsession was relieved instantly, and it was a God thing. Yeah, it was a spiritual thing. It was a Jesus thing. And then I went to meetings and and I was confused. I didn't know if I was supposed to be there.

Sure.

I felt really guilty because I heard people really struggling in the beginning, and I was a mess, and I had a ton of work to do, and I'm still doing it. Like, I'm not saying that—

stop taking the medicine—

but I never wanted to drink again ever after that. It was just like, boom.

Were you into drugs as well, or just drink?

Take it or leave it. If it was there, I would do it. If it wasn't, I didn't care for the most part. So for me, it was God first, and then eventually program was like, oh, I literally didn't understand what it was at first. I thought it was only for people who were scared they were gonna drink, and then I'm not supposed to go. Yeah, you know, eventually I met some guys that were like, we're not thinking we're gonna drink.

And I was like, program for a living, what are you doing?

And they're like, we're crazy. And I was like, oh, I'm fucking crazy too.

Yeah, yeah. Non-crazy people don't go this route.

I know. And then I got to see how beautiful it was. I actually think that entire program is perfect. It feels like divinely inspired. Those steps, I can't think of a better, more perfect expression of living a spiritual life, like keeping yourself good and strong and useful. And it's so beautiful. Do you have a favorite step or It was also interesting finally going and really understanding what the steps were. I didn't have a sponsor and work the steps until I was 7 or 8 years sober, but I understood them long before then, but was noticing just through my own experience, looking back on the steps, being like, wow, I did a lot of those things, not thoroughly, not perfectly, but spontaneously, even without the program, just after a month or two of sobriety, just thinking and being like, I need to call this person and say, I'm really sorry. That wasn't the best version of me. I let you down. I can't imagine how difficult that was and kind of naturally just wanting to do that, which to me is the greatest testimony to what the steps are that I could give, which is like there is something so deeply real about that process.

Those steps are just an articulation of something that is deeper, like it's coming from a deeper place and we're just gonna name what it is and like how to do it. I think all of the steps rests upon the steps that come before. Obviously the first one is that lightning bolt moment I had. But then for me, 2 and 3 were the most important ones I ever did, and they're kind of joined.

That makes sense given your ease and comfort with religion or Jesus. It explains too, like, that's hard for me.

Yeah, yeah.

So it makes sense that, that part of Eckhart's story didn't bother you. And that was the thing I got hung up on. If anything ever took me out of the program, it was the higher power stuff. Hard for me.

Yeah.

What is 2 and 3?

Came to believe in a power greater than ourselves, turned our life and our will over to that power.

Came to believe that we could be restored to sanity by a power greater than ourselves, right? Yes.

Got it.

Here's the thing, man. What you're saying right now, I understand completely and fully. I totally get it. And like, that always breaks my heart.

Yeah.

Because as a kid, that feeling that I have that I'm describing, I hated church. It was very confusing for me even as a young person to like try and separate out the religion.

Yes.

From what I felt like I was experiencing and or reading. Again, voracious reader. I love to read my Bible too. I didn't even grow up in a very religious household. I just liked it. So hearing you say that, and I understand there's a million reasons why, and I've heard so many people say that, I totally get it. And then you wish, like, having sponsees over the years, whatever.

Like you want someone to have a kid and experience it.

You just want it because you're like, it made it easier. Yeah, that's all. And then like trying to help other people and they don't even want to say any of those words. And I get it. And I don't We don't need to talk like that. We just talk however we want to talk. But then you're like, boy, I wish I could give you even a taste of it, even if we called it something else, because it will help you.

Yes, yes, yes. Now, mind you, I do the things right. Like every morning I do my first 3 steps. I do the prayers and I do the 10th step. I do them all because they cost me nothing. And I'd rather do this thing than die drinking in the morning, you know? So it's like, it's very easy for me to cooperate. But for me, the 4th step is the thing I think that changed my life entirely. That to me, if there was a single step that they should teach in fucking elementary, it's this notion of making a list of all the people that you have resentments against. Why do you have resentments against them? What are they threatening? Because in your mind you don't see any pattern. But if you have to write out your 4-step and you look at that column, that third column, and you go, oh my God, all of my issues in life are being driven by 3 of my fears. It's not like I have 50 fears. Fears. It's like, I hate Margaret, and I hated my teacher, I hated my stepdad. It all threatens one of the same three things.

Like, my whole life is being governed by three things I'm afraid of. So I can either try to control 7 billion people to act in accordance to not trigger those three fears, or I can get to work on those three fears and be relieved of all this. That's absolutely proprietary, novel, crazy, special.

Yeah, I don't know that there was many times in life I was more terrified than when I went to do Fifth step. So the fourth step is what Dax just explained. The fifth step is sharing it with another human being before God. It says shaking like a leaf. What a vulnerable place to put oneself.

Yeah, getting to the part where I acknowledge all this stuff about was my issue was hard. Then telling someone about it wasn't terribly hard for me. Ah, but I know, and I've received many dudes' fifth steps, and I've seen the anxiety coming in, and I know the experience, which is just, oh, this person's not walking out of the room in horror over who I am. What a gift. I get the gift of it big time. Yeah, I'm not intrinsically flawed and terrible and unlovable. I'm just a dude who did all the same shit all of us other dudes did that got here. Yeah, that's incredible.

But you have to say it in order to feel it. So saying it for the first time, that's horrifying.

Yeah.

Have you seen the drama, the You ever seen the new movie?

No.

Okay, I'm obsessed with it. Zendaya, Robert Pattinson movie.

Oh, okay, yeah.

I think best not to know anything about it when you see it, but a secret is revealed basically. The whole movie spirals based on that secret, and I just think about it all the time. Like, God, yeah, are there things that people just shouldn't ever know about you? Because we here say the opposite. It's like, just share it. People will say you're not that bad, or I'm like you, or whatever. But then I was like, oh no, maybe there are some things that shouldn't be shared.

I don't know, it's confusing.

I think you want to choose carefully who you're sharing what with, that's for sure. I mean, the fifth step isn't like an indiscriminate, like, let me just grab a guy off the street. It's hopefully at that point the person who you trust the most, the person who's guided you to even get to that place. So it's, it's a very kind of sacred, special, specific place.

Yeah.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. I think the problem is often, and this is what you see with the tension in our country, is like we have this technology which is I can see the kid in Wisconsin post a video that is totally fine in his town and should be fine in his town, and the dude in Miami who's making this joke. It's good there.

Yeah.

But it's being seen by people from other cultures and other populations and other places, and there isn't some unifying. So no, in a program like this, yeah, there's no secret you shouldn't share because they've been through it. We speak the same language. And that's not to say that it's for everyone, and it's not to say that everything has to be for everyone. It's cool to find your group and have that trust among you, and it doesn't necessarily have to extend to everybody.

100%. You can see even in course of this conversation, the amount of seemingly weird things that either I or Dax have said where we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, community.

Yeah. If I'm telling my mother-in-law, like, no, I didn't say I was a drunk, and then I had this one moment, I was like, oh, joke's on me, you really are. I don't get it. You knew but you didn't know. But if you've walked that—

no, you can 100% know in your body when you say it. 100%. Yeah.

I'm imagining that plays into your upward trajectory professionally?

Yes, it was almost immediate. October 1st, 2013, that happens. The next 3 days, craziest detox. And I was a binge drinker, so I'd gone days without drinking before. Suddenly it was different. The thing was different. Out of my body 3 nights, every night. Whoa.

Yeah, yeah.

The amount of water that was on—

Jersey water—

the amount of water that was on that bed. I'd wake up Always perfectly in the middle of the night. Sasha sleeping next to me, my dog. Soaking wet. Nightmares, lucid dreams. I didn't even know if I was sleeping or not.

Oh, yeah.

Where you're falling and then you're not falling.

I don't think my abs can activate that way other than detox.

And also, what is it? So everywhere, wake up in the middle of the night. I'd put the blanket back on top so Sasha could go on that side. I'd get on the other side, soak the other side of the bed to wake up in the morning. I'm not even sure if I ever even slept because the dreaming. Anyway, 3 days. That Friday, have an audition. Starts the process of an audition, which I end up booking a pilot where they had like 5 male leads and they read me for 4 of the male leads and I didn't book any of them, but I booked the 5th one.

Oh, weird.

The one I hadn't read is the one. Yeah, it seemed like they just wanted me to be there, which was awesome. Yeah, it was wild. I mean, the confirmation— and this is not why we do it, and I'm not saying this is going to happen for everybody and this is just the way it worked out for me. And maybe that's what I needed at that time. But within 2 or 3 weeks, all of a sudden I'd gone from not working in a year and a half to booking a pilot.

Well, here's where I can touch higher power. As much as I have a hard time with it, I also weirdly believe you're not given things you can't handle yet. So to me, that's a product of that. Yes, it's like your God knew I couldn't give him this role a week ago. He had fucked the thing up, Dax.

I live by that. I believe that's true.

Some people aren't that lucky. They do get put in those positions. No, me and Charlie Sheen, you know.

Yeah, I think that all the time I watched that documentary about him and I just saw— it just seemed like he's like, oh, let me try acting, and then a year later he's like one of the biggest movie stars in the world. From someone like me and you watching that, I'm sure you felt the same. I watched it, I was like, oh no.

Yes, exactly.

It's horrible.

It is.

Yeah, it is. Platoon and then Wall Street, whatever. They just kept coming, you know, like, oh, he's dead.

Oh man.

Yeah, yeah, good luck.

I used to think with the, like, Marlon Brando of it all, I just wonder if, if it's just so easy for you to do, if you understand it so intrinsically without any effort, then you're robbed of the appreciation of the discipline it took you to be good at it. Like, if a basketball player could just walk on the floor and wherever they were throw the ball up and it goes in the net, that basketball player is never going to train a day in their life and they're not going to have respect for game because they can do a thing that no one else can do. And they're like, why is this a thing to be proud of?

I think you see that with a lot of artists. They feel fraudulent because they didn't necessarily work as hard as someone else next to them did. And I think that does fuck people up. I think that's why a lot of comedians go into dramas, because for Jim Carrey to be Jim Carrey is easy. As much as that's crazy, he knows how to do that, which is wild. And I think he felt some guilt, like, I'm the highest paid actor in the world for 8 years in a row on this thing I can just fucking do. You could wake me up in the middle of the night and say, be funny right now. I could do it, no problem, no prep. I mean, I don't know, I have no idea why.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But there is this insatiable desire for a lot of comedians where, to me, it seems like it comes very natural to them, but they gotta go fucking grind to demonstrate that they deserve it, right? It's all a mental fuck. Like, great, if it's easy for you, let it be easy for you.

I know, but it's hard because sometimes it's the struggle that gives the meaning context, or gives you the context to find the meaning.

Great. So I'm dangerously close to fucking you over for your next thing, but I just need to know— this is on Task. I thought this was really interesting. So you did an interview magazine with my hero, Gary Oldman.

Oh wow, yes, yes.

So rad. But in that interview, you guys were talking and you said that Ruffalo is super playful and silly and goofy on set, to the degree that you finally had to ask him.

Yeah, I'm always so curious. I get to work with so many talented people, and I always want to learn from them. And you always can. Somebody will always share, and they'll always be something you could take away and try and get better. But like with Mark, I was like, wow. And this is an actor who I've admired for years and years and years. And also, I've started in theater, so I know Mark's a theater actor in New York. So all these ways in which I really look up to him, and then see him on set, and he's so generous. He's so kind and sweet and goofy. He's like a kid. He's playing and he's joking. He's just so silly, and it's sweet. And so I was like, man, because I can't be that way. Not when I'm doing something like Taz. Yeah, I kind of want to just live in the energy of what we need to be doing, like somewhere. It's not that literal. I'm not like Method or anything. It's just like, let me live in that energy. But Mark, it didn't matter. And then he would do the scenes and they're amazing.

So I was like, what is going on? I said, have you always been this way? And he goes, nah, nah, I used to be more like you. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, well, I used to be more intense. He's like, because you're focusing. I was like, yeah, I don't know how to not focus. And that doesn't even come from any— like, this is how I do it. It comes from like, I'm being paid to do a job and it's my responsibility to make sure I do my job for you. And so I know what I need to do to make sure I could do my job for you. That's all it is. But Mark was like, I've been doing this for so long. He's like, at a certain point, if it wasn't going to be fun, I can't keep doing it. Apologies, Mr. Ruffalo, if I'm paraphrasing you wrong. But basically it needs to be fun. It needs to be enjoyable for me, or it's unsustainable. And it was also a relief because I'm definitely less held than I was 10 years ago. So to hear Mark say, no, I used to be like you, and then to see where he's at now, I was like, okay, okay, maybe this is just maturation.

Maybe this is just years under your belt. Maybe this is just experience. And eventually you go looser and looser and looser. Wear it like a what? Like a loose-fitting garment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's like, okay, well, then there's something to work towards, this constant knowing that you've done the work that you need to do in a way that you can just be easy, be easy, be easy.

I think you can only get that with so much practice. You can't just walk in and be like, I just got it. Yeah, you learn that over time.

You learn it over time and you build trust in yourself. And I definitely trust all those things a lot more, like I said, than I did 10 years ago.

I need 2 hours with you because I got to see the other thing. Okay, so I'm seeing you act and I'm like, this dude, there is a tenderness to you that is so attractive and appealing. It's just so beautiful. I mean, within 5 seconds of meeting your character, I'm like, yeah, I want to help this dude figure out whatever he's figuring out. He's like a good boy.

Complex character.

Yeah, like your heart was just so exposed in it. Third thing was, this guy's fucking body's awesome. I then did 10 minutes with male body. 10 minutes to my wife on the body. I go, okay, so this guy—

you, bro, look at you—

I want to I'll give you the ultimate compliment because this is what I thought. I'm like, this guy's real, and this real dude doesn't go to the gym for an hour a day, but he has this body. And I go, he's one of these dudes I knew in junior high that was just like, for no reason genetically, was just fucking jacked. And you have those kids in your schools, like, you're in gym class, everyone's getting undressed. Yeah, you're like, what does this guy lift all day long? It's just natural six-pack and fucking Pecs. And I'm like, that's what this guy is. He's just one of these fucking stallions. I love you, brother.

I'm not. I'm not. Yeah, you know, it always is a little distracting to me sometimes when bodies are a little too perfect, where you're like, this guy's doing this life and you look like you're—

but you're slinging trash cans.

I mean, no, he's active. And also, growing up in Jersey, we're very similar to the boys from Philly and Pennsylvania. Like, we all lift away. Almost everybody—

everyone's got a bench in their garage.

I had a bench in my garage since I 12 years old. And guess what? If you don't have a bench in your garage, you're doing push-ups, you're doing pull-ups, which is really what I did for Robbie because it's like he's gonna just bang him out when he can. Pop some push-ups while he's on lunch or prison. Yeah, you just kind of can't get away.

Exactly.

Get up against the couch, hit some dips.

He doesn't have a personal trainer. No, no, no, no, no. He should look like he had a personal trainer.

Tom, I'm so glad we got to meet.

I know, this was great.

I can't pour enough praise on you on Task. This It happens to me like once every 5 years. I can name the people where it's just like, I don't know the person. I'm just like, what? What is this? What? Yeah, it's so fun when that happens. It happens once in a while for me. The last couple of years, I say you and Timothée Chalamet. I was just like, what?

Wow. Well, I'm in good company there.

I'll take it. I got to give it up to Goggins. Goggins is blowing my fucking mind too.

Goggins is awesome. He's a monster.

That little boy in the new Game of Thrones show.

Well, you just love it.

How good is that show?

So much.

It's so good. You watch it?

I'm only 2 episodes in, but I love it.

It's better and better.

It really does.

It's so good.

But delightful to finally meet you. I hope you get all the love and awards that you so rightly deserve for Task. What are you working on now?

I'm about to go to New York, do a movie with Apple, this really cool like action sci-fi, very different vibe from Task.

Well, I have one last question I would be regretful I didn't ask when you left. We're both in a similar situation, which is we have partners who are way more famous than us. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm good with it. And it seems you are, too.

I love it. First of all, so badass, so impressive what she's been able to do. It's like, girl, go get them. It's so awesome. And secondly, I would not want that. Yeah, truly, truly. Like, I'm so grateful if I get to keep being an actor, get to keep making enough money, get to keep having access to good scripts, and just fly, like, right under that radar. Yeah. Oh, I'd be thrilled. Yeah. That is a serious thing that they both experience, like, getting to see it up close. Kaylee's kind of, like, naturally magnanimous. She can live that fully 24/7 in a way without it being a strain because it's not a lie. It's just part of who she is. Whereas, like I said before, like, I need to retreat to regroup and all that stuff, and I don't think that would be good. Are you getting now, because of the nature of this, that when you're speaking, sometimes somebody whips their head because your voice is what's doing it too.

The funnest one I had was being at my daughter's school. They had like a kickoff for the new year and then the little field day, and there's a hamburger cart thing, and I stepped up to get my hamburger and I said, oh, could I get it without a bun? To this like 14-year-old girl. And she goes, yeah. And I go, okay, thanks. And she goes, wait, you're not on Armchair Anonymous, are you? Like, never seen me, never seen anything I've been in. Like, doesn't know I'm an actor.

But yeah, 14-year-old kid a show that's a little different that a lot of kids like.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, I thought she was just misnaming the show.

Okay, okay. It's like listeners tell crazy stories. And so she somehow, as a 14-year-old girl at this school, loves that show. And that one the most tripped me out. I was like, oh, that's so rad. This like young girl doesn't even know I'm an actor or anything like that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was great. Well, you're a delight and I really do hope we can double date or something.

Yeah, brother, I would love that.

Yeah, you're a good boy, I can tell.

But you used to be a bad boy, That's my favorite kind of boy.

All right, good luck with everything. Love you, bro. He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here, she's gonna let him have the facts. Hello. Hello. Were you at an event?

I went to an event last night.

Oh, let's see, you have makeup on today.

Oh, I'm— yeah, and I'm, I'm going to one after our recording, so I had to put a little bit of makeup.

Ending all of this with events.

I know, and I am, and I, I'm also dying. Like, I don't— something's wrong with me. I just made a doctor's appointment. I like bit the bullet. I was like, I gotta— I— what's going on? Why are these lingering for so long? They shouldn't be.

But it's lingering for everyone, just to make you feel safe. Like, again, I had it for 3 and a half weeks.

But me too, and then it went away, and then it came back, and then it went away again, and then it came back. It's like, it's just in me. Like, I—

it's dancing. It's—

I know, and I, I hate— I like, I didn't used to care about antibiotics, but now that I live in LA, it's like, and I'm like afraid of them.

I'm on antibiotics.

You are?

In my eyeball.

Oh no, it does.

Yeah, I have a horrible stye.

Oh no, did you put a hot compress?

I did. I'm doing hot, and I— everyone's telling me to do it.

Sorry.

Yeah, okay, it's just so funny when you— there's Certain things, right? You say it and then every— it's like almost like when someone falls, you say, are you okay? Oh, I have a thing. Hot compress. You know, there's a few, there's a handful of things. Um, yeah. And I'm being heavily monitored. I may live with 3 ladies.

Sorry.

Oh no, no, no, I'm not mad at you.

Be up your butt.

Oh no, no, I'm not mad at you. I'm laughing at the frequency. I get it. Everyone would naturally want to just help me.

Everyone wants to make you feel better.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a way to help. It's just funny, each girl that walks through the room, have you done a hot compress?

Yeah, it's really funny.

They want you to do it, and then you said it right away, and I was like, this just cracked me up. Um, it'll go on its own, don't worry. Without that, I'm guessing.

See, this is why you need all these women around.

Yeah, if it was just all men, they'd be like, throw a rock at it.

Oh, it makes me feel better that you're on antibiotics. Like, yeah, maybe I just carpet bomb this system. Let's get rid of it. It's like it's in there And it keeps coming back. It's like clear, it's just kind of dormant and like ready to pop.

It is a nice though, it's like a nice way to get a dose of gratitude and go like, oh, this is what people would like chronic pain. Like, you know, just sometimes to experience like, oh yeah, if you don't feel well for weeks on end, it's really, it really permeates everything you're doing and thinking about. But yeah, I started feeling it again. I love relearning the same lessons just over and over again. Again. But, um, you know, I was in Nashville, slept like a little baby, to the point where I didn't even wake up to pee like 5 of the nights. And I was like, this is crazy. I thought I always have to wake up for pee, for pee pee. And then virtually the second I got home, and we had this crazy week, did some— my sleep just went to shit. And I was drinking a ton of caffeine in Nashville. I'm on vacay. And I was like, oh yeah, it's all stress. And then, yeah, a stye. And Kristen gets styes before she goes to work. Do you ever get them?

I've never had one.

They are so stress-related, it's crazy. Like, it's shocking how immediate and direct it is to stress. What's your stress thing? Do you get— will you get a rash or—

I don't really—

I don't think— anal warts or—

uh, well, I know I just always have— okay, yeah, whether I'm stressed or not. Um, I don't think I, I present physically with your stress symptoms? Like sometimes when I, you know, I'll think like, oh, with my face, like if I'm like breaking out or something, like, oh, maybe it's stress, but I don't think it is.

You don't think it is?

Yeah, I just think it's just like I get like anxious and depressed. Yeah, but I don't think I get physical symptoms.

But like even— I'm saying this as a rational person— even walk me through the mechanism of how being stressed is going to give me a small infection on the inside of to my eyelid. Like, it doesn't even— I don't even understand how it could make sense other than it's just over and over again I see this. Yeah, as a result of something.

Body keeps the score, they say.

Body.

Okay, I can't do it. We need Ricky Glassman.

Oh, um, BKTS.

BKTS.

Pretty good.

Sounds like K-pop band.

Not as good as Ricky.

Okay, so I've been having real, for the first time ever, FOMO about Coachella, which I've never had. Yeah, but I keep watching this clip of Bieber, and I like wish I was there so bad.

Wow.

And then I'm so stupid, I didn't know it's two weekends in a row.

You learned a lot yesterday. We had a guest on Easter Egg who performed at Coachella and will be performing again next weekend, and I didn't want to ask that guest if Bieber was going to perform again.

Does he perform again?

You're supposed to— it's supposed to be same lineup.

It's the same thing.

It's supposed to be, but I mean, I don't know.

Do you know the moment I'm talking about. He's like— I think it's towards the end, he's down, he's like, there's a camera, and they start playing— it sounds like a little bit of a remix of one of his old songs, but it's from, you know, he did this mashup of his YouTube stuff and they play it, right? Yeah, he's, he's like singing along to Little Him, right?

Right.

I'm presuming there was some visual component to it as well.

Yeah, he's playing again the second weekend.

Oh yeah, I think it's the same.

Yeah, and the Strokes right before him.

Is it Saturday night?

Saturday night he plays at 11:25 PM.

Oh, perfect, because I was just thinking Molly's birthday party. I can't go, but now I have some calls to make. I want to find out if someone fancy like is zipping in last minute that I can tag along with. I mean, I might call in a lot of favors for this.

I do think this one, it's like back— like Coachella feels like it like kind of was eh for a minute. I shouldn't say that. I don't care about Coachella, so I'm only like on the periphery.

Yeah, yeah. But, um, do you have the thoughts I had that I expressed yesterday, which is like, when I'm seeing the photos from people at Coachella, I'm like, I don't have the outfits for Coachella. Like, you— everyone's looking like they have a vibe. And even our guest said, um, wardrobe something. It was a phrase about taking pictures of your wardrobe.

Oh, she just said like outfit pics, but there's another word.

Yeah, no, there was— I don't want to get bogged down in what I I guess you're proving the point I'm trying to make anyways, which is like, I do look at those pictures and I'm like, I don't know if I have any business being there. A lot of people are in like bikini, like very high fashion bikinis.

You don't have to wear that. You just go, you do what you want to do, but you could still see the music if you want. I'm not a music, uh, um, consumer. No, what's it called? Music festival goer.

Yeah, that's not for too many people, right?

So many people, crowds, and then And I'm like, I can't see, people are taller than me, it's dusty.

Although I did have that incredible experience at Bonnaroo when we were sent there to promote Hit and Run. Oh, because it's just rolling grassy green fields and it was just like ideal weather, green, no dust.

That's nice.

Really spread out so you didn't feel very crowded even though presumably there are a bazillion people there.

There's one in Napa that I might go to because I like Napa. Yeah, Bottle Rock. That's what Molly—

Molly loves it.

And Erica go sometimes with Molly.

And, um, you should go to that with them.

Yeah, because then I just won't go to the music and I'll just go shopping.

No, no, you go there and drink wine and stroll around and stuff, and just whatever way the crowd's moving, you just move the other way.

I think I'd rather just go to Napa a different time.

Okay. Yeah, you know, um, speaking of Napa, I keep reading the— you know, the wine industry is like collapsed.

I know. Well, it's collapsing. Yeah, yeah.

I shouldn't say past tense, but it's in a real rough state.

I know. I need to— I like— I gotta get there. I gotta help help out.

What I'm proposing to you is that you might want to attend one of these auctions and buy a winery as a distressed asset, because they're auctioning off these wineries that were worth gabillions of dollars. They've also just been trashing tons of yields, right? It's really depressing.

I know, because it's so beautiful.

But then the pig in me is like, should I try to— Yeah, you should buy a big chunk land in a fire sale in Napa?

Yes, cuz I want to stay there.

You want to go? Yeah, of course. Just pull, pull our money and buy an armchair winery.

Yeah, armchair. Oh my God, arm cherry. And we have notes of cherry in there.

Notes of cherry.

Um, listen, that is sim that you brought that up because I went to an auction last night.

Was that— was that your event that you—

yes, that was the event I went to. Friend of the pod, beautiful, lovely, wonderful friend of the pod and friend of life, Lake Bell.

Ah, how was that?

I was hosting it. It was so fun. It was so cool. So it was for RED, the charity RED. Remember? Okay, RED used to be like all the rage.

Sure.

It was every— we were talking about this, like millennials knew about the charity RED. It's like maybe the only charity we knew about.

The branding collabs with brands. You could only get this product in red.

Yes, my Nano was red. Yeah, it was genius. Anyway, and they did a lot— like, they've done a lot of really great work, but unfortunately— and that's why I shouldn't be making fun of AIDS all the time on here— it's like, it's like on its way back.

What? Yeah, but goodness, we have all this treatment for it.

I know, but well, globally it's on its way.

Yeah, and—

but here— but yeah, there's treatments, but that's kind of why it's like people people aren't like as concerned. But then there's a vaccine.

Oh, there is now?

Yes.

For HIV?

Yes.

By the way, that brings up measles. There's like 200 kids now have passed from fucking measles.

Fuck, they've died?

Yes, totally preventable. Fucking drives me nuts.

Yeah, so that's sort of their—

nobody thinks there's side effects for the measles vax. Go find me 200 people that have died from the measles vax over the last 25 years. You can't do it.

I know. Exactly. So, but yeah, there's holdups for the vaccine right now, but it's like that. So that's kind of their push. That's their push is like, we can end this. It's not like we can slow it down or like treat symptoms. Like, no, it can be done.

Yes.

So, which is very, very cool. But anyway, so I went to this auction and it was really cool because so I guess, uh, Lake has been doing doing this for like 20 years, and her mom started it, and she does it at like different charities, 4 different charities, and it's called Auction for Nothing. Okay. And the way it was presented to me was like, last— oh my God, I'm so sorry. I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

What if when you're at the doctor you read your symptoms? What are your symptoms? I keep dropping a piece of metal on my computer at work.

It's weird, I just like have no motor Oh, maybe I don't have any motor control. Oh my God. And I can't talk either.

But is it falling off your finger or you're doodling with it?

I'm playing with it.

Oh, okay. Okay. All right. So it's kind of like measles. It is avoidable, but it's a tiny bit big.

Okay. So it was presented as like, you know, you bring some like kind of like non-item item and people auction for it and it's super fun. Like she said, someone brought like a fake $100 bill from their purse. Purse. Someone brought a plane ticket to somewhere, like, old. But, you know, kind of nothing items and just like a fun way to raise money.

Okay, so people are bidding on shit that's junk. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But like funky and fun.

Yeah, hopefully it's a bit of a bit.

Yes. So I was like, what should I bring? What should I bring? So I, I was like, oh, I know, I have a key card in my wallet from the Four Seasons Beverly Hills. It's an 11:11 key card.

Oh, uh-huh.

That I stayed in on my birthday. As we know, it's lucky. It's ex— and I was like, this is a sacrifice.

Yeah, but it doesn't say 11:11 on it.

It does.

It does?

Yeah, because it's in its sleeve.

Oh, okay. So it says it was written with a pen. Yeah.

And I was like, I felt like, wow, I'm—

this is—

you're part of sacrificing something that's important to me. But whatever. So you get there, you write your item on this card, and you put its estimated value. And I said estimated value $1,100. I mean, yeah, $1,111. And anyway, put it in, great. It starts, and actually, who do you think, who do you think, who do you think made the first bid?

You? Yeah. Did you get it back?

It was me. No, it wasn't for that. So, so she picks out of the hat, reads them all. So the first one was Naomi Scott, actually.

Okay.

And it was, um, she said she would curate for you. You give her a year and she would curate the, like, all the magazines of a, of a magazine brand. Oh God, I took D. I don't know, but, um, and for that that year.

And I was like, oh, they collect all 12 issues of a magazine for you?

Exactly, like off eBay or something.

Okay, okay.

And I was like, oh, that's kind of fun. I like magazines. Yeah, I bid first. Yeah, okay, got this auction going.

Sure, sure.

And then she threw, you know, she was like, I mean, it's really like, it's fun for the ads. And then I remembered Got Milk.

Oh sure.

And I was like, oh shit, I can, I can like request, get some of these old Got Milks. And so then I, you know, I kept bidding and and I won.

Oh great, how much you spend on that?

$400.

Okay, great.

Okay, great start to the night. And then I was like, oh, I participated, I'm done, you know.

Yeah, no, you're not done, you're just getting started. Yeah, okay, you were just getting started.

I do not think I should go to auctions anymore.

Oh, you got competitive?

Yes. Okay, cuz boots, there were boots from a, from a boot brand. Okay, from a fancy brand.

Okay, so there is real ones too.

Yeah. Okay, see, this is where things got tricky, because then things started to get very, like, real. And then I was like, oh no, how many people are at this function?

And is it in a living room or, uh, like a big space?

It was at— it wasn't at a huge space, was that an intimate space rented in, in like Hollywood? Cool space.

Okay.

Yeah, I started to panic because I was like, people are doing real things and I put in a key card.

Yeah. Yeah, uh, so you're starting to panic.

Yep. And I was like, what do I do now? I look like an idiot.

Yeah.

And no one's gonna— and I also want— then I got competitive on the other end. Like, I want people to want my item.

Of course.

So she starts to read it, you know, and I was like, oh my God. And I said, you know what, I'm gonna throw in one night stay.

You interrupted.

Yep. Okay, well, she read it and I was like, and, and I'll— I'm gonna throw in one night stay at the hotel. That felt like a really good pairing, you know. I can't guarantee it'll be room 1111, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and it went for $1,100.

Okay, great.

Yeah, which is probably what it will kind of cost me to buy that room. So, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but it was really fun.

Yeah, that does sound fun. I want to share that I, I'm delighted about this because I finally kind of can truly relate. Like, you keep hearing this term parasocial relationship, and certainly intellectually I'm I understand what it means and what the definition is.

Yeah.

But I don't know that I've ever been able to relate to it.

Okay.

But I am finding myself in a crazy parasocial relationship, yet I also know the person. So this is very—

yes, this— these are the trickier ones.

Yes. So it's Sidereus. So like, you know, we've had him on. I've gone for a walk with him.

Yeah, we've had him on many times.

Yes, I get occasional postcards from him, and I, I've sent one or two, and so I have access to them. But, um, I— it started with us listening, as I've said before, listening with the girls at night to Sedaris audiobooks.

Yeah.

But now it's become— that's what I listen to before bed, period. I don't listen to anything else anymore.

Yeah.

And I haven't for months.

Yeah.

And I'm re-listening to the same books over and over again, and I already know the stories, and I love them just as much. And it's like every 8th word he chooses, I get a ping of joy. And I'm so now immersed in his life. I think it's the whole parasocial part. The reason it's possible is it's not fictitious, right? So everything he's writing about is Hugh and his sisters and his dad.

Exactly. Now you know, you know everything about him, you think.

Yes. I'm like, I'm so upset I can't be at breakfast with he and Amy or out shopping with them, or he has this friend who he goes on these weird day trips to different countries when he's in France with. And I'm like, I want so bad to be spending all of his time with him and hearing him compute the world.

That is what it is.

And his breakdown— I was just re-listening to his breakdown of COVID and being in New York City and the BLM thing, and just the way he so perfectly skewers kind of everybody but also participates.

But I have a question, okay? Do you do— so you want to be with him?

I want to spend a lot of time with him.

I know, but—

and I want to somehow be creative with him too.

That's not really parasocial. Parasocial is like you feel— yeah, like you're like, I know him.

Yeah, I feel way closer to him than he could possibly feel to me.

Yeah. And you're like, oh my God, like Amy would definitely do something like that.

Oh yeah, I just think I would fit in perfectly with those two in my mind.

Of course, do you think like, like, you, like, you know their personalities? Like, if someone out in the world did something, you'd be like, that sounds like my buddy?

Sure. I mean, I'm thinking about him many, many times throughout the day. Yeah, every day for months.

Yeah, this is— yeah, welcome to the club. Yeah, and, um, pretty fun actually.

I love it and it's frustrating. I can also understand, like, when I hear people will say they have a parasocial relationship with you, it's like, yeah, I really feel it now. I unders— I understand that. And it's frustrating.

Yes.

Because like, I love him, you know? Like, I, I just love how his brain works, and I want to like be able to real-time experience life with him.

Yeah, he's so great.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

But you can see why in the podcast space why it's extra, right?

Yeah.

Like, like, this conversation we're having is so normal. We're not choosing— I mean, we are, we're making choices ultimately as to what people hear and don't hear, but like, we're just talking off the cuff, me and you.

We have no game plan. Yeah.

Yeah. And And so if someone's listening to that, of course it tricks their brain.

Like, they're here with us and it's real time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They know us. They know what we think.

They can predict what you or I will respond.

Yeah. And like, it's complicated.

I understand how genuine it is.

It's very genuine. Oh my God, it's very genuine.

It's not like— sometimes it's not sick. Sometimes you, you, you kind of frame it as like it's scary.

Well, it can be.

Not to me. I know how I feel about it. About David. There's nothing he could be— he should be scared of.

Okay, you are talking about you very specifically, but parasocial relationships can get very slippery and scary. I mean, hello, Bethstead was 100% that. That show is about parasocial relationships.

Yeah, that's fair.

And it— then that is— and like, what you're owed, what you're owed by the people you know. You're in a different position.

But also, yeah, I don't— I don't think Sideris owes me anything. I think I owe him something. The amount— the hours of joy this man has given me is like crazy, and $13 for the book. It's kind of fucking bonkers.

But like, okay, I currently am in a parasocial relationship right now with Aaron and Sarah Foster.

Oh, okay.

I started listening to their podcast. Yeah. And I listen— part of it, yes, is when you're listening, like I listen at night and like, so they're in your head before you're going to bed and like, yeah, they're just in your— again, with podcasting specifically, they're in your world when you're doing like your intimate things.

Yeah, yeah.

And so, but like, you know, my best friend works with them every day. Two of my best friends work with them every day.

Yeah.

Like, it's this weird— it's kind of this weird— they're close enough. And like, I was, I was, I was listening to an old episode and I was like, Anna, can you ask Aaron?

Oh boy.

Can you ask Aaron about this doctor thing she was talking about, because I think I need to go to the doctor and I kind of am interested in trying this, and she talked about it on the pod. Can you ask her? Anna thinks this is all so weird and funny, right?

Yeah, because Anna works— sits next to her all day.

Yeah. And she thinks it's weird when people have it with me.

Well, I'll tell you what I have to do, and I guess now we're really— we're in a zone that we could, um, guide each other, which is I have to fight the urge, and I have successfully fight I fought the urge to send him a voice memo almost every day to tell him how much I like this story, or I like how he said this thing, or I like— and I just know better, right? I just know that even if he loves me to death, yeah, he can only really absorb so much of that thing.

Exactly.

And I am sure he feels like there is the literary him and there's the him.

Yes, again, that's why that's different. He— I mean, it's stories about him, but they're crafted. They're, they're, they're perfect. They're perfect. Yeah, they're not us doing this, like, where then they walk down, we walk down the street and someone says something about Tonka and it's like, oh fuck, yeah, I forgot I said that. He's not forgetting what he put in his books. Yeah, it's on purpose. But I think he— you could send him a nice note.

It takes all restraint. Well, look, I've read what I know I need to do, and what's insane, because I'm obsessed, is I know I need to send him more postcards, right? Yeah, but I'm not making the time to do that. And, and he gave this great speech. It's in one of his books. He, he gave a speech to one of some college, and he was basically telling them, like, you know, write a letter to your grandmother, write a letter to— like, that was only his only advice for these graduates, basically. He's like, take the time to sit sit down and write so that your grandma can be sitting there and reading this thing and holding it. It's not a fucking text message and blah, blah, blah.

That's nice.

And so I heard that and I'm like, I'm— I can't even— if I'm— if I— if I want to honor him, I already know what he thinks is disposable, right? Anyways, it's also crazy to have all these feelings about him because I actually—

but you know what's okay? This isn't— and I don't mean for him, but there can be a don't meet your heroes— I mean, meet heroes, but don't get so close in parasocial relationships, right? So because like, you know, I'm like, well, I like, I'm like friends with, I'm like friends with Aaron and Sarah. Like we're friends.

Sure, sure, sure.

And, and then I do laugh at myself cuz I take a step back and I'm like, well, we actually for real could be friends. We have like so many people in common. I could meet them. But I was like, oh no, that would ruin it. It would change. Okay, ruin is maybe not—

yeah, I don't know if it would change it.

Okay, because I— well, I experienced this with Elizabeth and Andy. I had a full parasocial relationship with them for so long.

Okay.

And now we're all very, very good friends, and I still love their podcast so much. I listen immediately, but it's It's not the same listening experience because you don't have the yearning to connect to it.

You have the connection, so it's like the yearning has been taken away.

Yeah. And I like— and then, yeah, I will text, and it's normal, just like my friends text about our show. That doesn't feel parasocial. That just feels like—

yeah. So I wonder if the move is for me to protect this very special feeling I have every single night for an hour.

Yeah.

Um, I guess we never get of that. But I've been having these feelings lately, and it's not that I'm looking for inspiration, I just find the thought of this inspiring, which is like, we interviewed a journalist yesterday who's like so impressive.

Yes.

And his mind is so wonderfully curious. And I've been having these thoughts lately of like, I would like to figure— put more time into figuring out how to collaborate— collaborate with people, whether it's writing or it's something. I just, I just am like intrigued by the notion of, um, I haven't written with a human being since The Groundlings, you know?

Yeah.

But I used to love that. It's like you, and also you're forced in there. So there was 15 of us in the company. And if I had my druthers, me and Josh Nathan would have written together every day because we had the exact same sense of humor, but you write with everybody.

Yeah.

And so you're kind of forced to bring these radically different perspectives and you sit in your apartment, your one-bedroom apartment until you come up with a 3-page sketch. Yeah. And often you came up with really great stuff because you had to.

Oh yeah.

And it was a really joyous experience that I long for.

Yeah, I think you can find that. I also think you could—

I mean, I don't know when I'm doing this, but—

Well, sure, whatever. It can be something you want to do and try to do. But also I think it's okay to admire from afar or not even afar, but like, just like, I love what that person person does, I can let that be something I consume.

Yeah.

And I don't have to be like connected to it or a part of it or a part of them.

Yeah. Let's work through that. That's— I mean, I'm on the surface, I'm— I agree with you, but I'm curious, like, I guess it's just natural if you enjoy something, you want to be close.

Of course. Yeah, of course. It's also because I think you actually— you're in a weird position where you have the ability to—

if I put a lot of energy—

yeah, you could do it for so long I wanted these collaborations with people. And, uh, you know, it's like, oh, if only I could work with this person or this person. And, and, um, I couldn't. Like, there was no way to do that.

Yeah.

And then do, and then not able to. I don't know, I think there is something freeing to just like, that person's, that person's just great. Yeah, I guess it is.

I don't know, the The dangerous part could be I want to somehow work with them and I want to produce something with them. And I guess I want them to see me as worthy of that.

Yes, of course.

I certainly know I have zero money motives, so that's good. Like, I can take that off the table. It's not like I'm like, oh, we could have a bestseller, you know. I don't know, I'm thinking like that.

But You're worthy. I guess that's sort of how I like— I think that's like, you don't need anointment. You don't need somebody else to say like, yeah, but that's the thing, like when you love someone from afar, you do, you hope they would love you. You do. But I think you can get to a place where it doesn't really matter. Like if you find out they like you, it's like, oh my God, that's so flattering.

But like, I'm there with other actors. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, like, certainly I'm flattered by that whole Fassbender story, if it even happened.

Yeah, that's so cool.

But also, that Fassbender story would have in the past sent me into another sphere, and then I'm like, I fear how to work with this guy. When that's like, he's just because he likes me doesn't mean he and I are going to be in a movie, right?

Or whatever.

So that stuff has all gotten very neutralized in my life. Like, yes, I can just like someone, and if they like me, that's great, but I don't— I'm not off to the races with these fantasies. But of course, more and more, and I think maybe I was reminded by it by this journalist, we were reminiscing about self-submitting stories to journals and publishers and just how demoralizing that is. And you have your little envelopes and your postcards you send with it so they can respond to you. And so I do think because that was my initial thing I wanted to always do, I have a reverie for writers.

Yes, I do.

In a way that is probably reminiscent of, like, when I first started acting. Acting. I had this crazy reverie for actors. And then all the way around to your point, maybe just keep and cherish that. You don't need to infiltrate that and then neutralize that too. Maybe just stay a fan.

You can stay a fan. Maybe it's confidence, which I know you have, but it's weird, I guess. Too much of. Well, you have a lot.

Intermittent confidence.

And then you have none. It's weird.

Yeah, yeah.

I guess we all have that pendulum, but I, um, oh, you just reminded me of something.

Okay, great, great, great. Something I've been meaning to bring up for 3, 4 weeks.

Okay. Okay. I feel like if someone comes up and tells us, someone I really respect obviously comes up and says they love the podcast or whatever, I'm flattered.

Yeah, yeah.

But we're not do— I'm not doing this for that at all. Like, it's— it— which is maybe newish for me in the past 10 years of it. I don't feel like I need that approval from people I wanted respect from to confirm for yourself whether— yeah, I'm like, I think it's good, I'm proud of it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I don't care, like, what other people say, good or bad, doesn't have much of an act, because I feel very convicted in my feelings about this. So I guess that's sort of what I would hope.

I feel as a human being.

Yeah. That you just, like, don't need that per— who we had the other day to, like, work with them so that you're like, and I— so I worked with them, like, they made— so I must be good, right? It's like, well—

Yeah, I just want to live inside of one of his stories as much as I can. And I feel like by being with him, since the stories are about reality, somehow I'd be able to live Okay. The thing you just reminded me of, because it was confidence and domains and we were talking about things, identity markers that are important to me. And the one I said that was troubling to you, as it should be, was I said fighting.

Oh.

And then I didn't have— it's always irked me since then that I didn't explain why. And I have figured out how to articulate why.

Okay.

And this is not a boohoo. I would hate for you to think that this is a boohoo. Who story. But I think if you grow up, um, with an older brother that's significantly older than you and you guys fight a lot, you have great fear of that violence. And then you have some stepdads that are like really, really violent, and, and you're scared a lot. Yeah, of that. And then you go to junior high and you date an 8th grader. Now all the 8th graders want to kick your ass, and just like older dudes wanting to kick your ass, and then just floating through Aaron's neighborhood and the amount of violence, like the amount of time in my early life that I was so terrified of men and violence. To come to a place through fighting where I don't have any of that fear. I walk in the street, any guy I see, I have no fear. I'm not saying I can beat every guy up, but I'm saying I have no fear. I've conquered that fear. And the fear was so all-consuming and so frequent that it is like a total shackles I broke out of through finally forcing myself to stand up, fight back, do the thing, right, and overcoming it.

So if there's been any one of these identity markers that has given me the most relief, funny enough, yeah, it's way more than driving fast, right? It's way more than all these other goofy ones I have. Yeah, but it's the one that liberated me from this feeling I hated, which was fear.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, I'm being scared.

That makes total sense. I think I meant more like—

and clearly fighting is just bad and it's not a way to define yourself, so I get all of that. But for me, I wanted you to understand why that's an important one for me.

It's like, yeah, yeah, I, I, I think I, I think I know that about— I, I don't think you like it because it's— you— makes you scary. Like, I—

or I'm trying— like, I want to beat somebody up.

Right. I don't think that. But I guess for me, when I look at the big picture, I'm like, the reason you were put in the position in the first place to be scared is because somebody else is violent, because of somebody else who made them— it's like, to me, it's this like horrible cycle that makes kids afraid, and then they have to build that, you know, defense mechanism. And it's like, I would just want the whole thing to stop, for sure.

And when you watch the Jack Reacher video of the guy pushing him off his motorcycle and him beating the guy up, like, it's just all obvious violence and all of it's bad. And all I'm seeing is, oh yeah, that guy tried to make Jack Reacher terrified.

Yeah.

And tried to hurt him.

Yeah.

And Jack was like, fuck this, fuck this. Yeah.

By the way, I, I like, defend yourself. I'm not— I don't think he did the wrong thing there. I'm just like, uh, like, I hate all this. I hate that guy who sucks.

Yeah, he's violence.

And that guy who came out is violent too. Like, I guess that's my— like, he started with violence, it was reciprocated with violence. This whole thing is just like— I just wish that wasn't like the case, you know? Um, but I mean, it's also reality, so whatever. But that's where I'm coming from when I say like, I just wish that cycle would stop.

But you know, I agree, it's a terrible reality of life on planet Earth. So I'd rather be someone that wasn't victim of it.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and it's like when women take self-defense classes, it's not because they like want to run in the street and start kicking everyone.

Like, they want to not feel afraid.

Yes, exactly. So I do— I 100%— yeah, I get that.

And if— and, um, Cecilina, the Brazilian jiu-jitsu champ, like, if she tells me something I love about myself is I'm indomitable— yeah, I love that.

I do too. Yeah, I do too. Yeah, I guess just the whole thing makes me sad. It's like, yeah, it's— it makes me sad that you have to do that because there are people in the world who rape people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that makes you have to do this thing, you know, whatever. But anyway, it makes total sense to me that that would be it.

And my algorithm unfortunately confirms my worldview that this is still essential.

See, that's what's so funny. I don't have that.

You don't have— I'm like, so like, I see so many videos of like just a random Joe at a bar doing nothing and some asshole, you know, I see so many of those videos. So for me, I'm also misled probably about the frequency, right?

Yeah.

Okay, you want to do some facts?

Yeah, let's do some facts.

Facts are fun. Oh, I really love Tom. Yeah, yeah, he delivered.

Um, okay, so state universities that don't have the words like state or university in them, because remember he went to Rutgers and we were like, oh That's weird. It doesn't say university.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

So is it private or public? But technically Rutgers is Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.

Yeah, which is interesting. I read that. That's how we knew it was the State University of New Jersey.

Right.

But I, again, still it's weird that it's Rutgers State University of—

Yeah.

It's not Bellingham University of Georgia.

Right. That's true. That's true. That's true. That's true. You know, it's not like—

Yeah. McHashen, North Carolina State University.

Yeah, you're right. But I'm not finding a lot of others. Yeah, it's all like College of New Jersey, College of Charleston, SUNY.

What's Duke?

Duke is private.

It's private. Okay.

And Tulane is private. I had brought that up, but that's private too.

Only priv.

Um, very priv. Very, very, very, very priv. Um, okay, I looked up what what's happening with, um, when you're detoxing, when you have this stomach jolts, because he said, what is that? Yeah, the body's reacting to the sudden removal of substances it's adapted to, causing gastrointestinal distress, muscle spasms from electrolyte shifts, or intense nerve adjustments. It's often a sign of toxins leaving the body, resulting in, yeah, cramps, gas, diarrhea, muscle spasms.

I will say, we talked about it in the episode, the, the two most humbling moments in alcohol addiction, which I've talked to many people, is that moment for me in the kitchen where I was like, oh, it's not a joke, and, and I can't, I, I'm never going to quit. Yeah, um, that moment. But when you have violent DTs, you're like, could this really be happening?

So, okay, I feel stressed about not stress, but saying that, because it's good, because people need to have expectations. But I'm like, I'm nervous that that's enough to have people just never stop. Like, sometimes I think that. I'm like, oh my God, if I stop, like, will I—

you have stopped. You've quit for a month here and there.

I know, but like, what if— no, you want to have that and then I can't handle it, and then I'm— I just don't want to see if it happens.

No, you, you're not, you're not even— I don't think you're anywhere close to having DTs.

Scared. Well, anyway, don't let the DTs stop you. Um, they're really like— those were the facts. There were really no facts. I mean, there were those facts. Yeah, that I just gave.

I'm not surprised. I doubt you were either, to find out that he had had a very high-status girlfriend.

I'm not surprised. I obviously wanted to know who it was, but you know what, I respected his privacy and I didn't look it up.

Yeah, this guy's a killer. He's so sexy.

He's so nice.

He's so sweet.

So sweet and engaged. Yeah, like he's, he's, he seems like a very nice guy.

Oh yeah, they have like the X Factor kind of attractiveness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was lovely.

I could imagine.

Good pair, good pair with—

Yes, dynamite. Um, okay, love you, love you.