Transcript of The After Show: The Suitcase Murders

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Hi everybody, welcome to 20/20: The After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts, and as always, it's so good to have you with us. And today in particular, because we've got a fascinating guest with us who is going to help us understand a little bit more about the criminal mind. She's a special agent who just retired from the FBI, but played a major part in our last 20/20 episode called The Suitcase Murders. If you saw our program, you will remember her, and if you didn't, you are going to learn a lot today. It is the unbelievable story of 2 women, seemingly unconnected, who disappeared about a year apart: 19-year-old Jenny Gammas of Oregon and 37-year-old Laura Simonson of Minnesota. Now, their whereabouts, as far as their families were concerned, were a mystery until June 5th, 2014, when sadly both women's bodies were discovered hidden inside 2 suitcases along a rural Wisconsin highway. Well, as you can imagine, local investigators initially had no idea who these women were, let alone who might have killed them. FBI Special Agent Carrie Gibson was brought onto this case. In fact, she had been involved with it somewhat earlier to help put the pieces of the puzzle together.

And she would eventually help authorities zero in on an unexpected suspect and ultimately help bring justice to the families of Laura and Jenny. Agent Gibson is joining us now. Nice to have you with us again, Agent Gibson.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you again for being a part of The Suitcase Murders. You're a licensed psychologist and an FBI special agent, or you were until you just retired. Um, you brought together 2 really major parts, I, I think, of a career that can offer insight into all kinds of crimes over your 18-year career, or 18-plus-year career with the FBI. Tell me a little bit about how those 2 parts of your life work together when you got involved in investigations?

So, from my standpoint, I had been a clinical and forensic psychologist before I came into the Bureau, and I had a fascination with wanting to learn more about the why of offender behavior. And so, for me, it was, you know, a natural place to go, right, to learn more about criminal behavior, to become an FBI agent. And so, that was where I started my career, was in Minneapolis Field Office.

Well, let's talk about that because you were in Minnesota when this discovery was made. You had already been looking into the disappearance of Laura Simonson. You knew this was a woman whose whereabouts had been a mystery. How did you learn about that case and get involved ultimately?

Yes, Laura had went missing in November of 2013. Her family had reported her missing right around that timeframe. I didn't become aware that Laura was missing until February of 2014 when there was a report made to the FBI in Minneapolis about her disappearance and the assistance of FBI, really wanting to be brought in to help find where she was at. And so it was really in that timeframe of February 2014 that I reached out to local law enforcement where the family had made a missing person notification.

And I want to talk more about her, but also the other victims. So let's talk about this disturbing crime scene. 2 suitcases with remains of 2 women. on the side of the road found by a highway work crew. I mean, it's just mind-boggling. As an FBI agent, when you first hear about somebody discarding remains that way, what comes to mind for you right away?

Just really discarding them like they were garbage, just really thrown off to the side of the road. And it was obviously very sad to find 2 young women in that way. But we had known that Laura was missing. And so when we got the reports of the, you know, individuals being found on the side of the road, I knew right away that it was Laura. And so it just was a matter of time before we were able to identify her as one of the victims.

Yeah. So 2 different women, that's the one thing. I mean, it's one thing for you to find Laura, but now she is also thrown away, if you will, along with another woman. You were working with local police to try to get some answers here. So let's talk about this. I mean, it would take 3 weeks ultimately for them to identify Laura, for sure. What did you know about Laura? She was a mother of 6 children. She'd also had some struggles in her life.

Yes. So Laura had actually was a mother of 7 children, and she had just lost one of her children in July of 2013 before she went missing. And so she had been struggling. She's one of these individuals that we would refer to as a high-risk victim, had struggled not only just with, with life in general, but had, has mental illness, had, you know, different volatile relationships, had really struggled with addiction, and had found herself in, you know, many different high-risk situations. And so when this happened for her, she was at the lowest point in her life. She was very depressed. She was suicidal. You know, this is— she encounters him a month after her daughter had passed away. She felt responsible for her daughter's death. And so she really just in that point in time was very vulnerable.

Let's talk about the other victim, 19-year-old Jenny Gammas. She was a teen mom. When you talk about vulnerability, also somebody who was vulnerable. Folks who saw our program Friday night heard more about her story. Tell us about her.

Yes, Jenny, another sad story. A young female who, as you stated, was a young mother. She ultimately had grown up in a foster care environment, didn't really have any close supports to anybody in her family. And in fact, nobody had reported Jenny missing. And so when we found Laura and we found, you know, at that point in time, Jane Doe, we didn't know it was Jenny. That's what made it so challenging. She had never been reported missing. She moved around a lot and was seen more transient. And so ultimately, when we were able to identify her, it was, it took some time.

Which is why she, nobody was really looking for her initially because they did not know she was missing. You zeroed in on something though, 2 vulnerable women. And we want to talk about that. We need to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to talk about a little bit about the who the people are now, but the why is going to be the big question here we want to explore. So stay with us and you stay with us and we'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Who Killed Angel Harris, a podcast from ID. On June 25th, 2011, 31-year-old Angel Harris was found murdered in Gainesville, Florida. More than 15 years later, her case remains unsolved. But on the new podcast, Who Killed Angel Harris? A podcast from ID, host Sarah Kalin travels to Florida to uncover what happened to Angel and who may be responsible. Retired Gainesville Police Detective Courtney Roberts joins Sarah to review evidence. That includes surveillance footage showing Angel with an unidentified man shortly before her death, and then the same man walking away alone. Soon, the search for answers in one murder Turns into an investigation of 5 unsolved homicides.

Who killed Angel Harris? Listen to Who Killed Angel Harris wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to 20/20: The After Show. I'm speaking with FBI Special Agent Keri Gibson, who is giving us kind of a deep look at our latest episode for 20/20 called The Suitcase Murders. She was involved with investigators helping them solve a mystery of 2 women from very different walks of life who met the same chilling fate. Police began looking closely at the digital history of 37-year-old Laura Simonson, who was the first victim they were able to identify, and they were looking at her cell phone, her computer. They found some surprising things. She had been on bondage websites, communicating in online BDSM chat rooms. Agent Gibson, they zeroed in on one man that she had been talking to. They called him Mr. Handcuffs. Tell us about those conversations and what you made of that.

Yes, so that was his handle for his name online, and that's where he had met Laura, and that's where they started their conversations until eventually they took them to direct messaging. And ultimately, it was all about power and control from his perspective, and it was really set up for him to be the, the person that dictated what, what would be said, what would happen, and for her to be subservient to him. So he was, he would be dominant in this situation, and she would be the subservient one and ultimately would be referred to as the slave, never referred to by name, very much dehumanizing to her.

So this wasn't about sexual thrills for her, really. It was, it was really a control kind of situation, wasn't it?

BDSM is a lifestyle. And I think that, you know, there's always a potential for arousal to be attached to various aspects of it. But really, at that point in time in her life, she was looking to be controlled. She didn't want to have to live life because she was very depressed about losing her child. And so ultimately, she fell into this submissive role. She'd been in this role before. So she knew, she knew about the BDSM lifestyle. And at that point in time, she just really didn't want to think for herself or be responsible for herself. She wanted someone to take care of her.

So that was really telling for you. And then what was really shocking to us in our reporting, Mr. Handcuffs turned out to be a man by the name of Steven Zelich, and he was a former police officer. That was really stunning to us and our team. What did you make about that? And what did you learn about him?

You know, at first, I was surprised by that, just like you guys were, just again, because we don't expect that type of behavior from a law enforcement officer. But it was very important. We learned very early on that he was a former police officer. So From that standpoint, for me as an investigator in assisting on this case, what was very important is that he knows all the aspects of what it is like to be a law enforcement officer, but also what it's like for a criminal investigation. And so ultimately, he would have the upper hand potentially in a case like this because he would know what law enforcement would be looking for.

Yeah, because it is about power. And he also came from a law enforcement family. His father had been a police officer, which is what we talked about. I want to point out one thing that we found to be very strange in our reporting. We interviewed one of Zelich's former girlfriends who described him from years ago, kind of a neat freak of a guy, apartment was very meticulous. But then later on, when police actually went into his apartment, much later, they found a place that was really pretty disgusting. I mean, one of our folks said it was almost like reminiscent of Silence of the Lambs. I mean, what do you make of that? A guy who began one way, and then suddenly police see a very different scene in his apartment?

Well, I think it's all— it makes sense in some ways when you think about the obsessive nature that would go with him having to be very clean and neat in his apartment when he first started out, very rigid and controlling in his own life in that situation. And so that doesn't surprise me. And then as it progresses for him, I think what you start to see is you know, maybe early on, when he was finding solace in the BDSM activities and the communities, he was able to keep it more controlled and contained in certain areas, right? So his home was still able to be very neat, and it was obsessively neat. So you see some of those underpinnings of some of those psychological constructs that would be present that I would see as a psychologist. As time goes on, though, and he starts to lose that job, lose those contacts with other people that, that are in his life. No one's coming to his house anymore. No one's coming to visit him. It becomes easier and easier to fall more and more into this, this other side of his life, the fantasy life, right? And so then that's where you start to see it turn into this, this scenario, as, as you said, the Silence of the Lambs scenario, where ultimately he, he thinks it's a good option to have a female in his fridge for 15 months, and that that's seen as an option for him.

And then, you know, continuing to keep her outside after that with Laura in the trunk. And it really goes to show that now he's full in the other life, in that fantasy life, and he's getting more out of that than he is his regular life.

Clearly, a new persona had emerged.

Yeah, Mr. Handcuffs. And that's where he was really embracing all of that, that he was doing on the Call Army page and all of those contacts that he had, because that's where he had the power. And that's where he had the

And playing on the police connection too, Mr. Handcuffs. Well, one of the things that we were able to, to reveal on our program, Laura and Zelich checking into a motel together, um, and the next day cameras show him checking out alone, which is quite revealing. Um, stunning footage in our episode on Friday night. Talk about what you're— you and your investigators made of that. I mean, clearly it tells you a lot if he goes into the motel with a woman and comes out alone.

Absolutely. I mean, I remember having conversations with the investigators. Again, she was reported missing in November of 2013. I don't get involved in this investigation until February 2014. But in part of those conversations, those facts were being shared with me, the fact that she had checked in and paid cash, and then ultimately he had checked out and that there was no video footage of her And I remember asking, well, where is she? What do we know? You know, what did you find out? And, and they just said the assumption was that she was likely— from the people at the hotel, the assumption was she was out in the car. And I just said, well, we can't assume anything here. We have to try to figure out where she's at. And, you know, obviously the footage, you see him pushing out the luggage cart with the suitcases and I remember that very distinctly, thinking about that and thinking about, you know, what that could mean in that moment.

So shocking. And I have to tell you, I reported on a story years ago for 20/20 that had some similar connections here too, because there was somebody who checked into a place and we saw him leave with a suitcase. And ultimately there was a woman's body found there. I mean, it's just really chilling stuff. What else shocked us was Ultimately, police start talking to Zelich. He is a former police officer, so they know they've got to sort of handle him in a way that might be sort of careful because he knows what to expect. I want to play a portion of the police interview where he is openly discussing with the officers what he says happened to both Jenny and Laura. Let's, let's take a listen.

Steve Kazdak, will you say the first one? Which one are you? Which name? I only know them by names. I don't know which one is first one and second one.

Um, Jenny.

Jenny. Okay, thank you. Do you remember her last name?

Gomez. Or no, well, something similar to that. Gomez, something similar to Gomez. She contacted me, was interested in, uh, you know, uh, you know, coming out here. She was from, uh, West Coast. Let me think a moment. Oregon, I believe. Basically, I had the rope around her neck and pulled it either hard enough and long enough without releasing it. Okay. And resulting in In her death. It got way out of hand. And obviously, my fault, and I'm going to pay a price for that.

His blunt comments. He's there in his security guard outfit, because now he's a security guard, no longer a police officer. But he's talking with the police as if he's one of them. And that was really intriguing to us. And obviously, the police were using a tactic there with him, right?

Yes, that was one of the things that we had discussed. We want, you know, in this type of situation, we're gonna bring him in, they're gonna talk with him, and we want to be able to have him feel comfortable. We want him to be able to share, and ultimately we want him to tell us what happened to Jenny and Laura. And so the decision was made at that point in time, you know, through different resources we had at the FBI. We were able to utilize the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. And one of the suggestions that the profiler had made, Bob Morton, retired FBI profiler, had made was that we should really appeal to that. We should really align with him in that way because that would be disarming. And so ultimately, when you see us all interacting with him on the video, that's exactly what we're doing. We're really trying to, to make him feel like he is still part of this team and really use that in a way that could be disarming to him so that he would be more open and honest in his disclosures.

To keep him talking. And our team was really struck by the fact that he seemed to be sort of impressed that the FBI was talking with him. He obviously has some knowledge of what police might be looking for. Did that make it harder, or in some ways, did it make it easier, especially with your psychology background, to kind of think how to approach him?

So I think his background as a law enforcement officer was challenging leading up to when we ultimately arrested him and were able to speak with him. Because at that, you know, before he could hide, he could do different things, he could be more covert and know what law enforcement would be looking for. After the fact, it was really easy to be able to align with him because we were all law enforcement officers. And we were able to talk to him in a way that we would talk with our coworkers. And ultimately, we could see that was having an impact on him. We could see that he was enamored with the law enforcement, and he was enamored with the FBI. He was enamored with, with my background as a clinical psych clinical forensic psychologist who had worked with sex offenders. He was enamored by the knowledge I had about BDSM and disordered arousal. And all that led to him being very open and talking through the scenarios. Now, he always was very calm, and he was always very blunt and matter-of-fact in his communication. That never changed. But he ultimately— you could see that that had an impact on him, and it was disarming.

Yeah, disarming, but also enough that he was starting to give up. You know, the details, and, you know, he had the hubris there. Psychologically speaking, what do you think attracted Laura and Jenny to this type of a personality?

So I think for both Laura and Jenny really didn't psychologically have the strength to feel and understand what their worth could be. And so ultimately, they fell into his control, his manipulation, because they in that setting, given their challenges that they had encountered, and really their feeling that they were broken and damaged, that this was really their best, right? Like, he had somebody who wanted to care for them. Even if it was in this slave capacity, it was still somebody who wanted them. Mm-hmm. And so they were willing to settle for that. And so it was just very sad. I felt very connected to both Laura and Jenny. because of the understanding the vulnerabilities. I felt very connected to their psychological, you know, underpinnings of what led them to find solace in this life. They don't know their worth. And that's why it's so important that we help people understand that they're worth more than this.

Yeah, that was the sad part of it. You know, you're absolutely right. He truly preyed on these women. One of the really disturbing parts of this case is that police would learn that Zelich had actually kept Jenny's body in a refrigerator in his home for more than a year and stored both Laura and Jenny's bodies in the trunk of his car for months. It was in cold weather, but then ultimately the weather warmed up and he had to try to figure out what to do with these bodies. Let's talk about the mindset here.

That, that was actually, for this case, like, that is one of those, uh, factors that was unexpected for all of us. We, we did not see that coming, but as we unpacked the case, it made more and more sense. And so You know, he, he ultimately kills Jenny in August of— I think it's August 28th of 2012. He kills Laura in, you know, November 2nd of 2013. And those bodies then are found in June of 2014. And I think that the reality is, is that for him, it's way— it goes way beyond concealment. Because, you know, some people might say, well, gosh, it just took him a time— took him some time to deal with it, to figure out what he was going to do. And it's, it's bigger than that. He had way too much time to figure it out. And he knew as a law enforcement officer that he needed to figure it out, and still he chose not to. So from this, from our kind of discussions and thinking about this case, it was really— it became apparent, right? If you think about it through that lens of the BDSM you know, lifestyle, they're his property.

And ultimately, for someone like Steven Zelich, this was all about power and control. And in a part of his life where most days he had no control or nothing really fascinating happening, this represented a part of his life where he had absolute control.

Yeah.

He had succeeded in ultimately taking their lives, which was the ultimate power and control for him.

Well, as you say, he had control until he was eventually arrested and your team were able to zero in. We're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, we want to talk about the charges that he faced, what ultimately happened, and also talk about his prison sentence and get some advice from you about women out there and maybe give us some thoughts on red flags that women need to know in online dating. So don't go anywhere, Agent Gibson, if you would stay with us. And don't you go anywhere because you're going to want to hear These details when we come back. This show is sponsored by Vinted. It's officially fall, and it seems like everywhere you look, everybody's wearing adorable fall sweaters, and you might be ready to start shopping for your own fall wardrobe. But when your closet is already full of spring and summer styles and clothes from years past that you don't wear anymore, It's hard to find the space for them. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a free-to-download app that makes it easy for anybody to sell their pre-loved fashion and make a little extra cash.

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Agent Gibson, you met Steven Zelich, the man charged with those murders, after his arrest. You got the impressions of him. He was sort of smooth and sort of a, you know, a very much in-control guy. He ultimately, you know, had to fess up. He said that these crimes were an accident, that he was, you know, he admitted that he had harmed these women but said it was an accident. You've spent your career studying criminal offenders, choices they make. This man was a former police officer, as we said, which was even shocking to us. What did you make of him? And did it surprise you at the end? I mean, he didn't really quite claim responsibility, but he ultimately did tell you that he did this.

Yes, I wasn't surprised that he didn't fully come forward and share specifics related to ultimately owning that it was purposeful behavior that he had completed. But I mean, again, when I had the chance to interact with him, what became very apparent is that for him, his— this was really all he had in his life was, was this type of lifestyle. When you would read his words on paper, he sounded, you know, very intimidating, very controlling, very scary. But when you interact with him face to face, like, he was really pathetic. Like, it became very clear that there's a reason why he was thriving on the online space and not in life. And so for him, he ultimately admitted that, that, you know, he killed both Jenny and Laura, and he did it accidentally during breath play, a BDSM activity that is called more of an edge play session because of the deadly nature of it. He did admit, though, that ultimately, when he was driving to, to pick up Laura, that he was thinking about Jenny. And he was thinking about how she died during breath play. And he had made the decision that he was going to do breath play with Laura, even though it had been deadly for Jenny.

So we did get him to admit that part of it, which was, was important as well. But it was very clear from his behavior that it was definitely something that he had considered and planned and prepared and knew what he was doing.

Yeah. And breath play is a strangulation, right?

Yes, it's a restriction of the breathing. Yes.

There must be a lesson in this. I mean, I want to talk about warning signs for women, but when you think about somebody hiding in plain sight like this, do their stories teach us anything about, you know, what we can learn about people who might be lurking out there?

I think so. I mean, this case, you know, taught me a lot. It taught all the investigators a lot. He was very calm and calculated and wasn't very anxious at all, no matter when he interacted with the law enforcement. And that was something that I think all of us kind of felt with the stereotype of, well, gosh, if he had something to hide, he would have been anxious. And the reality is, is that if you've, you know, conditioned yourself that this is your life, and this is what you like to do, you're not going to be anxious about it, because it's a part of who you are. So even when, you know, law enforcement approached him in March of 2014, and interviewed him, and he gave his DNA, you know, you know, gave consent for his DNA, and he gave consent for his computer to be taken. I remember everybody talking about, gosh, he was so calm. But ultimately, Jenny and Laura were in the trunk of his car at that time. And so he needed to be compliant, he needed law enforcement to, to leave. And so ultimately, he did that and just being very calm and in control.

And so I think, again, we have to, we have to, you know, test our assumptions, we have to understand that There is that if we assume someone is going to respond a certain way, again, that is based off of our thoughts and our patterns. It is not necessarily based off of theirs. And so we do not really know all of that going into this. And so I think for, for him to be hiding in plain sight, he knew that police would probably feel more comfortable if he was not anxious. He knew if he consented to everything that they would probably feel better. He knew that if he just kept calm, that that would maybe buy him some time. Um, again, from a long-term perspective, this wasn't looking good because he had 2 bodies in his trunk, and it's in March of 2014, and he's going to eventually have to figure that out. But what was so interesting to me is like, that didn't really matter to him because he was so caught up in the fantasy of the, the BDSM activities and his contacts with females online. And again, his obsession and his fantasy base, you know, from my perspective as a psychologist, uh, kept him compelled and, and focused in a certain area way beyond, uh, you know, his, his— what would have been seen as better judgment for most, right?

Most people would have taken care of business. He didn't.

Yeah, very creepy stuff to think that he's being questioned by police and he's got bodies right there. Um, well, fortunately for us, you were on this case and you helped, uh, not only solve it but also help us understand. So give us some thoughts there. There are a lot of women out there in the online dating world. I mean, this is very different because, as you said, BDSM was, was, was sort of different. But there are people who are, who are meeting people online. And I'm sure there must be some red flags other than just somebody being a jerk. But give us some ideas for women who are out there, some patterns to be aware of that might possibly save them from something dangerous.

Absolutely. I mean, no matter, you know, what type of, you know, forum you're in, or who you're meeting, again, everything should be in this consensual, uh, place where you're able to openly talk and, and have— be able to, you know, either consent or, or say no to something. And in this situation, it was very, uh, you know, clear from go that what he said is what mattered, and, and, and they didn't even really have a voice. And so right there, that's a problem. Um, any type of relationship should be bidirectional and balanced and equal. And so if there's a hierarchy or there is a structure that doesn't allow your voice to be heard, that's going to be a red flag. Another red flag is he really wanted to isolate them from everybody. He wanted them to delete their, their Facebook pages. He wanted them to, you know, delete their accounts. He wanted them to just disappear. And I called it the disappear game, like he was telling them to just disappear in their life because ultimately they were going to be slave. And so they didn't need any of their possessions. But the reality is, is what, what it seemed to me is that he was making it harder for law enforcement to figure out what happened.

And so again, nobody should, should isolate you. No one should take you away from your family. No one should take you away from your friends. And if somebody is trying to control you in that way, that's a red flag. And, and I just think it's so important to recognize that, that that's not okay. That's not normal. Yeah. It's not something to tolerate.

Yeah, that's very, very good advice, especially when you talk about that whole isolationism. It's really scary stuff. Well, fortunately for the families of Laura Simonson and Jenny Gamez, you were able to solve this case and bring at least some answers to them. And we thank you so much, Agent Gibson. Congratulations on your retirement, and thank you for the incredible work on not only on this case, but on Friday night's episode, and for being with us today.

Thank you so much.

Of course. And thank you for being with us. Of course, you can find 20/20 on Friday nights on ABC, and you can stream episodes like this one anytime on Disney+ and Hulu. Take good care, everybody.

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