Transcript of Dr. Aliza Pressman: Rewire the Childhood Habits Sabotaging Your Life and Business | Human Behavior | E397 New

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Um, I think Dr. Eliza Pressman, a developmental psychologist and the author of The Five Principles of Parenting. She's here to help us understand how our childhood shapes the way we show up today.

One of the things that is just a universal spot for vulnerability is how we were parented and how we parent. Everybody has had an experience of one or both. Whenever you are most vulnerable, you're also most apt to grow. So much of our operating system gets pretty wired in those early years.

You've got these 5 Rs and relationships are actually one of them. So talk to us about that.

So the 5 Rs are relationship, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair. Relationships are highly, highly influential. Whatever's going on in your world, they have a buffering impact on the bad stuff that comes your way. They really change how your body takes in stressors and how it feels capable of being able to move through the world.

So a lot of people think healthy relationships are just supposed to be always great and positive, but that's not actually true. So what does a good, healthy relationship actually look like?

Sure. Okay. So—

Yap gang, what if the way that you lead, relate to others, and react when things get hard was wired inside of you before you turned 10? This is not a metaphor. This is developmental science. My guest today is Dr. Eliza Pressman, a developmental psychologist and the author of The Five Principles of Parenting. And she's here to help us understand how childhoods shape the way that we show up today. We break down her Five Rs: relationship, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair. We also get into how they shape the way you manage teams, handle feedback, and build trust at work. By the end of this episode, you'll know how to spot insecure leadership patterns, regulate yourself when the pressure is on, and understand why strong relationships are built on repair, not perfection. If you're new to YAP, follow the show and keep leveling up with us every single week. Eliza, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

I'm excited for this conversation because it's very different from the typical business entrepreneurship conversation that I have because you're actually a child psychologist and you wrote a very popular book called The Five The Principles of Parenting.

Yes.

So I really wanna reverse engineer our childhoods in this interview and really try to figure out what do we need to know about the way that we grew up and how does it impact leadership, business, running teams and everything like that.

I'm so excited to have this conversation in that context cuz it's, it's totally relevant and I think it helps us reflect a lot on how we work through this.

Mm-hmm. So tell me, my first question to you is, how does a child psychologist always end up in a room full of CEOs?

I think one of the things that is just a universal spot for vulnerability is how we were parented and how we parent, because everybody has had an experience of one or both, and it just like cuts deep. And it has an impact. And I think over time, especially in the current culture of like wanting to understand ourselves and wanting to be better in communication with people and in relationships, I think it's making leaders feel like, let me figure out how best to be in relationships with people. And you cannot do that without exploring how you learned how to do that out of the gate.

And when I was reading your work, I found out that a lot of our brain and the way that we operate, our operating system, really happens before we're 10 years old. So talk to us about that. What are the things that like form the way that we act as adults?

So, uh, first I should say, because I am a developmental psychologist and that means like change happens over time and it never stops. That said, so much of our operating system gets is certainly not fully set, but pretty wired in those early years. So there are 3 moments of brain growth that are the biggest. And the first few years you've got most of our brain development happening, which is kind of shocking.

Wow.

The second boost is in adolescence. And the third, which still is a small amount of growth, is the transition to parenthood. And then after that, you know, we don't— so far we have not looked at anything that suggests like massive growth. And I think what happens is whenever you are most vulnerable, you're also most apt to grow. So in those first 5 years of life and certainly 10 years, you're at your most vulnerable. You're learning everything about the world for the first time. So you're not rewiring anything. You're just like, Everything is new, which if you think about, if you ever look at a baby, just like a, a 5-month-old baby, they're often just like staring at their fingers.

Yeah.

And like everything is new for them. Everything, the light, the shadow on the wall, how you talk to them, what sounds they hear, what tastes they have. And so how you learn to be loved is the beginning of how you learn to love people. And even though we're talking about entrepreneurship and in the business world where you're not thinking about love in that same way, it's still when, when we say love, we really mean like how to be in relationships with other human beings. And now that all the research is sort of letting us know that relationships are kind of the predictor of everything that's positive, longevity, success, successful entrepreneurs, everything.

Yeah.

Um, we know that like wiring early on is a great way to do it, but because our brains are plastic, they are always learning. You can shift. So if you learned habits that aren't good for your interactions with people, you can change them.

Well, that's good news. Yeah. We don't wanna just be like stuck in our 10-year-old brain.

No, we do not.

Forever.

But it does have, you know, like how you, how you expect the world to show up for you and how you show up for the world definitely gets—

And probably like your natural reactions to things.

Yeah.

Like your instinct is based on how you grew up and you can have control of how you react in the moment, which exactly we're gonna talk about later on. So you've got these 5 Rs and relationships are actually one of them. Mm-hmm. So since you alluded to it, why don't we start there? Break down what your 5 Rs are.

Okay.

At a high level, and then we'll go deep on each one.

Okay. So the 5 Rs are relationship, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair.

Mm-hmm.

And I basically pulled from the developmental science and, um, you know, thought what's something that is in our control because you can't control other people, not children, not other adults. So what's in our control, what's rooted in the science, what's replicated over decades. So not, you know, one study. I really, it was important to me that this is rigorous science.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, what can we do about these things?

Mm-hmm.

And so once I came up with that, it was easy to find only 5 things. But they are 5 principles that are highly linked with resilience and flourishing. So they're not only important in parenting. I think parenting is, for a lot of people, the first time they're doing that kind of exploration, but it's relevant for everyone.

Yeah.

Relationship is the number one environmental protective factor. For people. So whatever's going on in your world, mm-hmm, your primary relationships, the most important ones in your life, have the capacity to deeply protect you, to buffer the impact of all the bad stuff coming your way, which is inevitable.

Yep.

And so relationships are highly, highly, highly influential. Now, when you're a kid, obviously it's the number one way to make sure that no matter what happens for— in your child's life, no matter what comes their way, we know that if you think of kind of an umbrella and the weather coming at a kid, that umbrella is the parent.

Mm-hmm.

If they have a close relationship, you're protecting them from getting kind of drenched by whatever toxin— toxic stressors or trying to get in there. Now, as adults, relationships buffer the impact of outside stressors. It doesn't take them away, but it just lets you know, like, I can do, I can do this.

Yeah.

Because there's someone in my life that is, that cares about me. Exactly.

Yeah. And has my back.

It matters so much. And it matters in every context of relationships in your workplace. Like if you think about people who are feeling burnt out, people are feeling unsupported, people are feeling like, I can't do this anymore. They don't have that one person that they feel is both safe and also kind of, if you're thinking about a leadership relationship, like someone who's got your back.

Yeah.

Who's credible, who's competent, and who has appropriate boundaries. Like that person is gonna help support you in a way that makes sure that you thrive. So relationships are important. They also set you up, especially in our early years, for how we feel ready for other relationships, how we feel loved, like you were talking about before. Yeah. And I will sort of go full circle when we get to the fifth one, which is repair. Um, but the short of it is that relationships are a buffering they have a buffering impact on the bad stuff that comes your way. They really change how your body takes in stressors and how it feels capable of being able to move through the world with the inevitable bad stuff that happens.

I have so many questions about— so let's pause it at relationships. I have so many, uh, questions about this. So one of the things that I read when I was studying you is that 30% of the time in relationships is attuned connection, and the rest of the time it's rupture and repair.

That's right.

So a lot of people think healthy relationships are just supposed to be always great and positive. Yeah. Uh, but that's not actually true. So what does a good healthy relationship actually look like?

Rupture also doesn't mean like it's a fight necessarily, though it could be a, you know, real discord, but it can also be like, I wasn't connected, I wasn't paying attention, I was sort of out of it, or I was looking away. If you were looking at a baby and a parent, you might just say there was a disconnect because let's say mom was looking at her phone and the baby was like, you know, looking for some attention and the mom didn't catch it, but then she notices, puts her phone away and like re-engages. That's repair. But it can also be a fight. Like a proper fight can be a rupture. And the repair is when you come back together. And repair means reconnect. It doesn't mean you always are saying, I'm sorry, I did something wrong. And so I wanna, you know, make it up to you. It could be that, but it can also just be, you know, you're watching a funny show with a friend or your boyfriend or your husband or your partner or whatever, and you're kind of, you had a bad moment, you were arguing, and now you're both laughing together and you kind of move closer on the couch.

That's also repair. It's when two people are like, okay, we're back, we're good. Yeah. We don't have to talk about this. And so relationships need all of that. So if you think about childhood, if you were in a relationship, with an adult, your like person, usually a parent. And they were always in one mood and it was a generally positive mood. You never knew that like you could do something wrong and they still love you. You never knew that they could do something wrong and they still love you. You only learned that people are always just like in a good place.

Mm-hmm.

You would get out into the world and you would then have an interaction with a peer and they would fight with you, or they might even just say like, I don't really like how you said that. Just something that's totally appropriate. And you might think it's end of days because you're like, no, but love means you're always exactly in sync. Now it's low risk if that happens because people can't really do that, right? Like control themselves that much.

Yeah.

If you did it, the message would be like, there's something very bad with getting upset. And there are families, like, I'm sure you've seen them or you've been in one where having feelings at all, especially negative feelings, is looked upon as like, don't, like, don't do it. And so you learn, like, that must mean that it would cause a break that's something that can't be repaired in the relationship. And so you'd be very afraid of that. Whereas if you were in a relationship where you have moments where you're not getting along or you snip at each other, or you have a hard day, and like, it's not the end of the world, and you come back together. Or your parents snapped at you, and then they're like, "I'm so sorry. I— that had nothing to do with you. I had such a tough day at work. I'm gonna just like get back to center, and I love you," and that's that. Now you know, like, "Oh, this person loves me. Sometimes they're going to be in a bad mood, and that doesn't have anything to do with the stability of the relationship. You know, if you have a strong foundation and things get shaky, then everything's fine.

But if you have shaky, like a shaky foundation and you didn't learn about rupture and repair and you didn't have that healthy development, then every time there's an earthquake, things fall apart because your foundation isn't secure.

Yeah.

So I think give it that way and it is the kind of thing where reflection, which is the second principle, helps you figure out like, do I have healthy foundational relationships? And if I do, great. How am I bringing that into my daily life? And if I don't, what do I need to do to repair that internal life that I'm living?

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Grab your free trial plus an exclusive 30% discount at blinkist.com/profiting. That's blinkist.com/profiting. So one of the things that you mentioned that I'm super interested is trying to understand the way that you were loved as a child and how that shows up, especially because in the world of TikTok, we're always hearing about avoidant attachment style and, um, you know, anxious attachment style, insecure. So I wanna understand the difference between all three and what it meant in terms of how you grew up and how your parents loved you.

Sure. Okay. So when I say relationship, Another way of saying it is a secure attachment relationship, which is not avoidant or insecure attachment. And it's just the idea that, like, when you were little, you understood that your primary caregiver, usually the mother, sometimes it's the father or someone else, but that at least one person was always there for you. Like, not like they didn't take a shower sometimes and you were crying in the crib. And, you know, I'm not talking about that, but just generally speaking, you knew that they've got your back and that they told you the truth. So they didn't sneak out on you, as small as that sounds. Um, they were there for you. They— you could count on them. They told you the truth and they loved you unconditionally. And when you know that, and you know that you have security, that safe feeling, you go out and explore. So if you just, again, think about a little toddler toddling around the world, they go away from their person they feel safe with, and they always like check, and they're— you're there.

Yeah.

Okay, I can keep exploring. Now, if you had an adult in your life who wasn't there when you turned around to check, you would start to panic and you'd check more because you would realize like, I can't count on them, I have to keep checking. And that would be an insecure kind of attachment relationship where you don't know that they're sticking around. So you always are kind of like, what am I getting? What do I do? And there are all sorts of versions of insecure attachment, including avoidant attachment. And essentially those relationships are tricky because you can't count on this person and you're this young developing human and this is what you know of love. And love is telling you, I'm here sometimes and sometimes I'm not. So if you're a child, you're learning, well, in order to be loved, if it's unhealthy, if there's something not right going on, then you might think, in order to be loved, I have to behave really well, otherwise I'm not loved.

Mm-hmm.

Or in order to be loved, I have to be really quiet so that I don't bother someone. Or in order to be loved, I have to be, you know, very vulnerable. I have to, like, be enmeshed with them because they really need to feel needed. Like, you learn all these unhealthy cues about what love is, and that can lead to a sense of these different versions of what is essentially an insecure attachment relationship. So you might hear avoidant and you might think to yourself, okay, so I'm going to— I mean, I could be wrong, but most of us have at some point dated someone or been someone who in a relationship, you know, somebody wasn't paying attention to you or they seemed like they were really into you and then all of a sudden they're not into you.

Yeah.

Now, if you grew up with an insecure attachment, you might actually be like, I really like that feeling. I recognize that feeling. I mean, you wouldn't consciously say that, but you might just be like, that, that there's something appealing about that. And so you chase after them because you have this insecure attachment where you want them even though they don't.

Yeah.

Yes. And you try harder and harder. And there are also people that you might have dated or been where you were like, why is this person interested in me. They must not be worthy. I, I can't, like, I'm not interested in this. And a lot of these, like, weird dynamics happen and they happen with friendships and they happen in the workplace. And a lot of them are rooted in these bizarre tensions from childhood. And because ultimately we all wanna go home and if our home wasn't super healthy, it's still home, it's still familiar. So if you don't deal with it, it's your natural—

Repeating the same patterns and going back to how— what feels comfortable.

What feels comfortable. And so even if it's to anybody else, like, why would you want that?

Yeah.

To you, you're like, that's the smell I remember. Like, that's the sound I remember. And that's our unconscious self that's just like— now there's like one asterisk to this, which is temperament. Which is like, some people are like more confident in their sense of feeling loved and felt than others, and they came out of the womb this way. So like sometimes it's not as much about attachment in the way that we think about it. It's about a match between the kind of parents you had and your kind of way of being in the world. Like your natural—

So you're saying sometimes it's not the parents that influenced you.

Sometimes, like, we put a lot on those parental relationships and there's a lot, but there's a ton of research on temperament where I'm gonna simplify this just for speed. But one researcher that I love kind of looks at orchids, tulips, and dandelions. And an orchid is a temperament that's much more attuned and sensitive to the environment. That means their parents' actions are going to be like they're going to see everything. Every shift in their mood, every moment is going to be noticed. An orchid person is a person who is empathetic. They notice everything going on, or they might notice like the lights are brighter, there's a buzzing sound. They just— they are people who pay attention to the environment and feel it more than others. So that's gonna be maybe harder if you have a parent who with them is loving and wonderful, but they, they feel a little bit anxious cuz that's their natural way of like being on high alert. Whereas a dandelion, that's the kind of person who would, you know, like that, the, that flower grows through the cracks of the sidewalk. Like, yeah, they really just need basic sunlight, water, and soil.

Mm-hmm. And they're fine. And so One is not better than the other because there are many benefits to being an orchid, but it's harder. And a dandelion, on the other hand, is probably, like, gonna feel that sense of secure attachment no matter what, as long as they get basic love. And, like, you know, I'm not talking about extreme things here. So that's another part of this. And so when you go out into the world and you're interacting with people at work or in your romantic life or with friends, you also have to think about like that essence of someone. And we all have friends like that. You know your friends where you're like, you know what, I can cancel this plan on this friend and they're not gonna care. And you have another friend where you're like, I have to really be careful about canceling or they're gonna think this is way more, you know, like a much bigger deal than it is. Cuz they just are more attuned, they're paying attention and like more sensitive. They're more sensitive.

Mm-hmm.

So that's a factor too.

Do you know who Gabor Maté is? Yeah. I'm sure you know who he is. So I remember I saw some reel that he was talking about that was just so interesting where he was saying that like in a family, every kid grows Right.

It's so fascinating.

There's so much research on this because when you do interviews later in life with 4 siblings who are in the same house, mm-hmm. They have completely different recollections of what happened So let's say you walk into a startup.

Mm-hmm. You're witnessing the founder. How can you tell if they have a secure attachment style, an avoidant attachment style, an anxious They are in charge.

They are confidently in charge.

They can give you respect.

They can—

they, they don't need to play games with you. They don't need to scare you. They don't need to do anything that manipulates you because they're that confident. It's like a real security, a sense of like, I know what I'm doing, and therefore I have the confidence to give you space to I'll know when to help. I'll sort of scaffold you. And if you need more support, I'm gonna give it to you. It's similar to a really good parent. Mm-hmm. Um, you, you also know in your stomach, like if you get a feeling from someone, like of course you're gonna naturally be nervous because if some, if there's a power position that like that dynamic is gonna make you nervous. But if there's a part of you that's like, you know, if I, If I show up with my real self, and I'm not talking about like, you know, in the workplace, you're not going to give your like total real self, you're going to give your work self. But if I show up, is this person wanting me to succeed? Like, are they on my side or does it feel like I would be threatening them if I do?

That's another telltale sign. Like, you need leadership to feel so secure that they don't need you to feel better about themselves.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that happens all the time. And, and that is a, it's a flag. It doesn't mean you can't manage it cuz you yourself can say, look, I'm secure and I know this is something they're going through. And maybe someday they'll reflect on that and they'll think like, I wonder how I could be a little bit less, um, how I could impose a little bit less of this you know, is it like micromanaging or talking down? Yeah, all of the above. Like, all of those things to me indicate there's not a lot of trust. Yeah, like micromanaging or, you know, trying to even people pleasing, like all of those things suggest that like somewhere early on you were taught either directly or unconsciously that when you make a mistake it's end of days, that, you know, other people are not to be counted on, so you better check on them constantly. And those are really bad habits. And also it doesn't help people grow because it makes people think like, I'm never going to get there. Like, if you're a leader, you want the people, the, the younger people that are looking up to you to feel like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look at this person, I'm going to learn from them, and then I'm going to fly.

That's what I would want. You don't want people to be like, I'm never going to be that good. I'm never going to be you. I'll just stay here and be small. So if somebody is making you feel that way, then there's something wrong in that dynamic. And I actually don't think they'll ever help you fly.

Yeah, I feel like that's probably really rare for entrepreneurs to feel that way, but I could see like middle managers. Or managers feeling very insecure because they don't actually have a lot of control?

I think with entrepreneurs you can get— there's like one type. First of all, it's such an— it's a high-risk thing to do. So you're going to get this fantastic quality, hopefully, of like somebody who's really dynamic and interesting and creative. But with that sometimes came like— it came from a person who, yes, maybe that's part of their temperament, but also it might be that that was the only way they felt valued.

Mm, to be high achieving.

Yes. And so you just— it doesn't mean you shouldn't work for them. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be them. It just means pay attention to that.

I wanna play like a, a game scenario type thing where you diagnose me.

Oh God.

Diagnose me. And, and I feel like it can be attachment style, or if you think there's something more interesting to diagnose me, what, like in terms of like how I show up in the world, cuz I know there's There's so many different things that you could be looking for.

To make me feel better, can we change the word diagnose to observe?

Yeah, of course. Yeah, observe me.

All right, so because I'm a developmental psychologist, I'm gonna ask you about early.

Okay.

Is that okay? Yeah, yeah. So we know you had 3 siblings. There were 4 of you. You're the baby.

Yeah.

Were your parents married? Yes. And are they still married?

My dad passed away during COVID 2020.

I'm so sorry. It's okay.

But they were happily married until then.

But they were happily married until then. Of your older siblings, tell me like 3 words to describe each of them. Okay.

My older brother is like fit and outgoing and like loves to fight.

Physically or verbally?

Like pick fights. You know, like, like, you know, he's not like the sweetest, you know, he's more of like an aggressor in that way, but like also like very supportive. My second oldest brother, he's really smart and creative and like, uh, like loves to like draw and like really great father. Um, my sister is a doctor and she's more like serious and, um, just like reliable and responsible and, uh, you know like always like the cousin's favorite because she's always there helping. Yeah, so that's how I would describe them.

And how would they describe you?

Um, outgoing, leader, bubbly, uh, center of attention.

And how would your parents describe all 4 of you? Like, do you think they would agree with those descriptions?

I feel like they would. Uh, the way they describe us is like we're all very successful. Everybody's a doctor except for me. And so they did, you know, you guys are all good smart kids type of feedback.

And how did they praise you?

Very differently, my mom and my dad. My dad was very much supportive of like all my dreams and always told me I'd be the boss of everyone and not to worry about not being a doctor and to just follow my dreams. My mom was more like, um, go to school, study, be good, stop partying, like, you know, uh, focus.

And how did they discipline you guys? I assume differently by number 4.

Um, yeah, I didn't get like— so like, I had a crazy childhood where like I never had a bedtime.

Was that the same for their oldest?

All of us never had—

they were more permissive.

Yeah, like we never had bad times, which wasn't great But like, you know, I wasn't allowed late, I wasn't allowed to date. Like, they were pretty strict.

So did you rebel?

Did you lie? I lied a lot.

Were you sneaky?

Very sneaky.

Because they were so strict?

They were so strict.

Did they catch you?

Maybe a few times, yeah.

And so when they caught you, like, was it ask for forgiveness, not permission kind of thing? Or was it like, I will not get caught or I will get in such big trouble?

I usually did not get caught. I would just lie.

You felt Safe, like you knew they had your back.

Yeah, for sure.

Were either of your parents doctors?

My dad was a surgeon.

Yeah, that tracks.

Yeah. Um, what religion, you're asking?

No, but tell me that too.

We grew up Muslim, but I don't like— can— I was not— we weren't very religious.

You knew but were secular?

Um, yeah, like they tried to teach us But like, we rebelled, right?

Where did you grow up?

In New Jersey.

Okay, so you're an East Coaster?

Yeah.

Okay. And when you started dating, how old were you?

14.

And when's the first time your dad knew you were dating?

Probably like 25. Seriously?

Okay. A lot of people will say that if your parents are too sort of like, "Don't drink," in high school, that then when you go to college, you're gonna go off the rails.

Exactly.

But the truth is that the research shows that you're gonna go proportionally more off the rails if you do drink. So it's totally counterintuitive. If you drank in high school, you're more likely to binge drink in college. Oh. If you started drinking in college, you still might binge drink, but you're not gonna do it as much statistically as the person who was doing it in high school.

So that makes, that does make sense. Yeah. Because it's like you're just used to it.

And so it gives you this, it in some ways, like your parents being, giving you those guardrails did protect you until your brain was more developed.

Yeah.

And so it was like, it's, if your brain's mostly cooked, it's less worrisome than in your, you know, when you're in high school. It is not.

And they did treat me totally different once I was like 25 and, you know, more, more of an adult.

And do you feel like— you look like you're 25 now. I have— I could not tell you how old you are.

I look very young for my age. You do. I'm literally about to turn 40.

I'm— that blows my mind.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I can say that all day on the podcast and people still assume I'm like 30 years old, so it doesn't matter. Yeah.

No, that blows my mind. And actually, when I was talking to you in the beginning of our conversation, I'm like, I'm talking to this young young woman in her 20s, and I feel like my tone will now change.

Yeah.

Um, would you say that your parents— because I, I think there's, there's permissive parenting, which is like best friends, because, you know, like, like, we're best friends, I want you to feel loved, I don't care what you do, there aren't going to be any rules. And there's authoritarian parenting, which is definitely authoritarian.

Yeah.

Which gets you more sneaky parents, you know. Yeah. And then this middle is authoritarian. Authoritative, where you're sensitive and loving and connected, but you have rules. And maybe they were closer to that than you realize, I'm not sure. But it sounds like they were— it was housed in love.

Totally. Like, I feel like in general my parents were super loving and supportive and like just wanted us to do good and supported us and good example, I think, you know.

So, and how did they fight in the house?

My parents, my dad is more of like a temper barker.

A barker.

And then my mom is like very like sweet and like submissive.

That's so interesting.

Yeah.

Okay. And you're in a loving relationship?

Very loving relationship. Yes.

The majority of people have secure attachment relationships. Contrary to what TikTok would tell you, it's about 65% of the population. One thing is that in a relationship, where you weren't raised in a way where you felt securely attached, you do need a partner who is. Because if you get two people, one avoidant and one anxious, it's a mess. You know, it always feels like, yeah, yeah. Um, so do you feel like you both have a sense of like, I understand what it's like to be loved and to love?

Yeah, I think this is probably like the healthiest relationship I've been in. I was with somebody else for 11 years. And I think we were— I think I was anxious and he was avoidant. And it was just like this drama, drama, drama, drama, drama for so many years.

And so glad you—

yes, got out of that. Yeah, but it's—

it can be appealing because if you have, for example, if you have anxious attachment, then what is more drama-making and exciting and upsetting than somebody who gives and takes and gives and takes?

Yes, exactly.

And so those are often people who are very attracted to each other, and sometimes they're the same, like depending on who you're with, the other— it's like the other side of the coin is brought out in you. So somebody who seems quite anxiously attached with one person might seem very avoidant with another person.

Oh, interesting.

Um, but you got out of it, and I think that that means you understood home is a secure place.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, that means to me you did ultimately grow up with a healthy relationship, even if there were messed up moments. And even if your family— if you're like, they are bonkers, the underlying message was, we're not going anywhere. We love you unconditionally.

Mm. Just curious, like, anything I need to watch out for?

If you notice that somebody isn't comfortable with boundaries or limits from you, like the, the rules, which is of the 5 Rs.

Yeah.

That's a flag. And something to say to them is, we should probably talk about how when I give you feedback or when I set a boundary, it's, it is uncomfortable for you. I notice that and I want us to get through that. Mm-hmm. Because no healthy relationship can withstand not having those rules.

Yeah.

And so if you're not comfortable with them, tell me what's going on for you. 'Cause we can't get rid of them. That's not on the table.

Yeah.

So you need to pay attention to that. Another flag is like, if you have to give too much positive feedback, of course positive feedback goes so far, but if somebody is, or like, so insecure without the positive feedback, it's going to be much harder to lead that person because it's going to be exhausting. And then I think with young people, it's a matter of like helping them set boundaries so that there is some distance between who they are and their identity and the identity of their workplace and the identity of the leader. You know, mm-hmm. Because that can be very confusing, especially when you're trying, you know, you look up to someone, you want them to, you wanna please them. And by the way, kids wanna please their parents. It's appropriate.

Yep.

But you also wanna let them know, and I would say this about parents to kids, is like, if you spend too much time praising for the outcome instead of the process by which this outcome happened, you're gonna get kids and employees who are just looking for the praise for the outcome.

Mm-hmm.

And they're not growing their process. And that's not gonna have the, the work isn't gonna be as good.

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I would say the only thing about reflection that I think is just easy, um, is reflection isn't just sort of thinking about recognizing and paying attention to what's going on for you and the past and the future and what you want and all these things, but it's also just stopping and breathing so that you don't do something stupid.

Yeah.

And I, I think just walking into a door and having a practice of whenever I touch a doorknob, I breathe and then I walk in, changes how you show up in a room. And that is what reflection is really effective for, is changing how you show up. Because you're showing up intentionally and you're not being, you're not sort of operating on autopilot.

Yeah.

And just doing whatever you feel like doing. You're taking a, just a beat. So I think just forcing yourself to have practices that are so short, like no matter how busy you are, you have time for it. But I think one of them is like when you're walking into a door.

I love that. 'Cause it's like kind of like a fresh start. This is a new room.

Exactly.

I'm clear.

Yeah. And the next R is regulation. And one of the things that is usually attributed to child development and parents, but is totally relevant here, is co-regulation and self-regulation. Because we know that the skill of self-regulation is, is a bigger predictor of life success than IQ and so many other things. It's also the only one of the sort of skills that we think about that is teachable. 'Cause you, you might not naturally be a self-regulated person. You were describing your parents and it sounds like your mother more naturally is self-regulated, but your dad was a surgeon. Mm-hmm. So he definitely learned how to regulate.

Mm-hmm.

Because you have to stay really calm in incredibly challenging territory. And in order to learn how to regulate, you need people around you who co-regulate, who have a nervous system that's more available. So a leader walking into a room, taking a breath, changes the air in the room and is kind of offering a co-regulation in a sense to the people in the room. Because you're walking in and everybody wonders, how is the leader? Like, where do we go from here? Let's take— we'll, we'll look at how you're doing. And that tells us how we're doing.

You've got a great analogy of being on a plane. Like you hate taking flights. Hate it.

I hate flying and I have to do it constantly. And I always sit in the, as close to the front as I can so that I can see the, and by the way, I know this is very undermining because I'm a developmental psychologist. So like why I know the statistics and I know all the things to do and it doesn't matter. It's, it's like an irrational thing, but I always like to look at the flight attendant and see their— are they regulated? Do they look panicked? If they looked panicked, I would lose my mind. But because I've never experienced that, I always look at them and I'm like, they're chatting. Like, obviously everything is okay. And it's really— kids do this. When you walk into a room with people, you know, even if nobody's saying anything, if everything's safe, you just do because you get a feeling. You know when people were arguing and then they stop arguing and you walk in the room and you didn't hear them argue, but there's like just thickness in the air. And so when you can regulate as a leader, you are offering the safety of everybody else.

And when people feel safe, they are not— their thinking is so much bigger.

Yeah. So much bigger.

Their brain is available. They're like ready to play. And so walking into a room without regulating yourself is gonna shut everybody around you down.

Yeah. So is there any, so you mentioned the doorknob. Is there any, I know you have a balance protocol that you—

so here's another, metaphor that I use that helps me find regulation, which is, again, I discovered this moving to Los Angeles from New York City, because when you live in New York City, you live in apartments usually. There's, there's like lots of people around. And for, if you grew up here, this feels safer because there's just people there. It feels like you're not like alone somewhere. And I moved to California and I moved to a place that was like in a canyon and so much nature, but no people. And I was like, I have to get a really serious alarm system. And I got the craziest alarm system. And I walked in and it makes like a short, like beep, beep, beep before it goes off. And it gives you enough time to punch the passcode in.

Okay.

And I was like, oh, this is the key. We all need our passcode to our alarm because when your internal alarm system goes off, you are fully dysregulated. You are ready to fight, you are ready to flee or freeze. Yeah. That's what happens. And so you're not capable of doing the things that you wanted to do. So assuming you're safe and it's a false alarm, you need to know your passcode. For me, my passcode is usually like a visual snapshot of something that makes me laugh or a saying, which my saying is, I'm not being chased by a shark. Which is ridiculous, but it's like my own internal reminder, like, okay, I don't like what's happening, but I am safe.

Yeah, I'm good.

And so it can also just be putting your hand on your chest is the fastest way to tell yourself you're safe. Because imagine our primitive selves, if we were being chased by a saber-toothed tiger, you can't just be like, yeah, you know, you have to like, ah, run. So any way to punch that that metaphoric passcode into your system to tell you everybody's safe is going to make you a much more pleasant person to be around and to learn from.

I feel like I'm learning so much, and I feel like this is stuff that my, my audience has probably never heard before because a lot of us are high-achieving entrepreneurs that are just reading nonfiction type marketing sales stuff. So we're never talking about our childhood and we're just ignoring everything and sweeping it under the rug. Um, but for those of us who are parents, who wanna be parents, what kind of, like, how should we be putting rules in place for our children? Like, what is the appropriate parenting style in your opinion?

So, I mean, I think when we were talking about authoritative before, where you have the sensitivity and connection, but you also have rules, that there's piles of research that that's kind of best practices. How it looks depends on your family and your culture and your history and your mood and your temperament. So it's not like there's one right way, but this is like a very broad description. Loving and rules.

Yeah.

Feels like, yeah. Um, but I think the two questions to ask yourself when you set up rules, are they aligned with my values and are they keeping my child and myself and others safe? And those are the two things. And otherwise they don't matter cuz like you don't wanna have so many rules that nobody prioritizes them.

Yeah.

So you really wanna say, is this aligned with my values? And is this about physical or emotional safety for myself or others? And I think that's true in the workplace. It's true with friendships. It's true with romantic relationships.

Mm-hmm.

It's like all of this translates. It's just that when you're becoming a parent, you're paying closer attention.

Yeah.

And so it's easier to see through the lens of parenting. But, um, those are the two questions. And then, Rules are very easy to make, and then you start to realize which ones are stupid and like a waste of space and a waste of time. And once you've like kind of boiled it down to the things that really matter and that make sure everybody's safe, then you don't need to question what rules to have. Mm-hmm. It's very clear.

Yeah. So for all the entrepreneurs tuning in after they just learned all this stuff about the 5 Rs, and especially we spend a lot of time on relationships and how to show up in relationships— what do you want them to walk away with? Or, or what's some piece of advice for them on what to do with this info?

You know, it's funny because I say this a lot and it sounds like it's for young kids and people are always like, I feel like adults need to know this, but all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. And I think that shows up in the workplace, it shows up in friendships, it shows up in romantic relationships, and it shows up with kids. Which is to say you are not in control of someone else's inner life. Their feelings are their own, but that doesn't mean that they can do whatever they want and act however they want. And so those are the limits and the, the sensitive, loving support and the limits all in one sentence. Hmm. So I think that's like a sort of a sentence to have in your mind. All feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. And then it helps you not overly, you know, be overly permissive about how somebody's acting because of how they're feeling, but it also gives you capacity to empathize and then set limits.

If you were tuning in and when we were talking about anxious and avoidant leadership styles or people who micromanage or, or talk down to people, what would you say is like their first step to like break that cycle?

I think if you note it, like if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh, this does apply to me, that is your first step is, is just asking yourself, does this apply to me? And also recognizing like it applies to all of us in some way. Like none of us, you know, have no baggage. So paying attention to it's really good. You don't have to sit in it and like absorb in this thought because I think it can make you really like annoying. Um, but just reflect and then try something different. Trust one more person to do one task without you and just see how it goes. And once you've done it one time, try it again and try it again. So you don't start with everything. You start in tiny little tasks that aren't high stakes. So maybe don't do it with a presentation for something incredibly important, but do it with some internal presentation.

When I'm reflecting on, you know, I've got 60 employees, I treat people differently depending on like their skills.

Yes.

So it's like Kate is my business partner, my chief of staff. I give her so— she does whatever she wants, like literally whatever she wants. And then I'm like, cool, you did that great. Like, yeah, you know. But then somebody who's more junior definitely needs more rules and definitely needs more. It's even the temperament thing that you were talking about.

And temperament, totally. You have to combine their status and their temperament. And I don't mean status in an ugly way.

Well, like their skill set, their experience. Yeah. So it's like sometimes you do need to kind of turn on more rules for people who can't take, uh, you know, freedom yet.

Yes. There's a— there's something that I say that I did not think was relevant to the workplace, but maybe it is. And it's about autonomy supportive parenting. So it's like when you have a little one, you, you can't let them just do everything because they, it's not safe. So we say let kids do for themselves what they can already do. So you're not gonna micromanage a skill that is, that you know somebody's proved to be competent in.

Okay.

And then guide and encourage them to do something they can almost do. So they, they're not quite there yet, but you're gonna guide them, you're gonna encourage them. And then for the ones who just aren't there yet, you teach and model for the things that they're not ready to do. And I think it's the same thing, autonomy supportive parenting and autonomy supportive, you know, leadership.

Yeah.

It's the same thing.

I love that.

It's gonna change depending on where they are in their trajectory of being here.

So good. Well, I end my show with one question that I ask all of my guests, and it is, what is your secret to profiting in life?

For me, it is laughing and finding there is something in every single human being that is worthy. I like to find it.

That's amazing. Why?

I'm oriented that way, and I have noticed that it puts my, it makes me more regulated.

And I'm sure it brings a positive aura where you just attract positivity. 'Cause when you're going around being positive, what are you gonna do? I love that. That's a great quality to have. And, uh, Eliza.

Yes.

Where can everybody go to learn more about you and everything that you do?

I have a website, draliza.com. I have a Substack, dralizapressman@substack.com. I probably should've made them similar. Um, I'm on Instagram @raisinggoodhumanspodcast. Hmm. And I have a podcast, Raising Good Humans.

Amazing. I'll put all those links in the show notes and thank you so much. This was such an awesome conversation.

Thank you for having me and such an interesting, like different way of thinking about all of this.

What an awesome conversation with Dr. Eliza Pressman. It's so much different than the conversations that we typically have on this show. And what I love the most is that this episode gave us a new lens on leadership, relationships, and stress. So much of how we show up in the world, at work, and in our personal lives was shaped early, but it's not fixed. With awareness, reflection, and practice, we can change patterns that no longer serve us. One of the things that I found most inspiring today was Eliza's advice to stop chasing perfect harmony. Healthy relationships are built through rupture and repair. The goal is not to avoid conflict. The goal is learning to come back together. So after After your next disconnect at work or at home, make one repair within 24 hours. Send that text, start the conversation, don't go to bed mad. Reconnect with warmth instead of letting distance harden. Remember, the healthiest relationships have rupture and repair. Next, regulate yourself before pressure takes over. Eliza said, "Whenever I touch a doorknob, I breathe and then I walk in." That's a really great Practical tool: Pick one reset cue this week and use it every time stress spikes.

I just love the doorknob example. Every time you touch a doorknob, just reset, breathe, and start from zero. Some other things that you can do is take a breath before your meeting, put a hand on your chest before responding. Your nervous system sets the tone for how you present yourself. Finally, lead with support, boundaries, and trust. Secure leaders do not micromanage. They create safety, give people room to grow, and match support to the person in front of them. So I want you to think about it. Is there somebody that you're kind of micromanaging? Somebody who may be able to do their job if you just stopped over-directing them? You could focus on way more important things than coach their process, not just their result. That's the real work, Gab Fam. Strong leadership is not control. Strong leadership is self-awareness, regulation, repair, and trust. All right, gang, as always, if you benefited from this conversation, the best way to support us is to like, comment, share, follow, and of course drop us a 5-star review on Apple, Spotify, Castbox. I love it when you guys drop us reviews, so please, if you haven't yet, drop us a review, especially on Apple.

And if you guys like to watch your podcast videos, that's super hot right now— Spotify Video, YouTube, you know where to find us. You can also connect with me directly on LinkedIn and Instagram at @YapWithHala. And of course, I want to shout out all of our amazing listeners today. I hope every episode is helping you think bigger, move smarter, and get one step closer to the life and business you're dreaming of. And I cannot wait to see so many of you become standout entrepreneurs, stronger leaders, and the kind of people that move the world forward. This is your host, Hala Taha, AKA the Podcast Princess, signing off with love and gratitude for this incredible community that we're building together.