Transcript of Ken Coleman: Stuck in the Wrong Career? Here's How to Break Free | Career | YAPClassic New

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If I'm not doing work that matters to me, I eventually start to wonder if my job matters. And then it gets really scary. I start to wonder if I matter. One of the 3 human needs that workers have to have met is meaning and purpose in their work. 2 is recognition for their unique contribution. And 3 is a relationship with their leader. Those 3 needs, those are all heart stuff. And that just shows our humanness. Ken Coleman, he's a Ramsey personality and number 1 bestselling author of The Proximity Principle. Career expert and a national radio host of the Ken Coleman Show, a nationally syndicated radio show where he helps people discover what they were born to do.

What are some of the feelings that people have when you're not in the right career?

So number one, there's a feeling of loss. They wouldn't define it as loss, but it really is a loss. It's an emotional loss because you feel like you've lost time. What that looks like is that discouragement. You get angry at yourself. Things haven't worked out the way you want to. I also think there's a fear of the unknown.

Talk to us about the problem of being disengaged and bored at work right now.

So the answer is—

Young Improveters, if you're waking up every day to a job that drains you, leaving you feel stuck, unfulfilled, or like you've wasted years on the wrong path, this episode is exactly what you need to hear. Our guest today is Ken Coleman, America's career coach, bestselling author, and the host of The Ken Coleman Show at Ramsey Solutions.

Ken has coached thousands through career pivots and knows exactly what keeps people stuck.

Earlier this week, we explored the world of work and how it's evolving and how there's more opportunities than ever. But having more options doesn't automatically give you clarity, which is why we're replaying this classic episode with Ken Coleman. In it, we dig into how to identify your natural talents and find a thread that connects who you are to the work that you were truly built to do. And if you're new here and this resonates with you, Please make sure you follow the show. Your dream career starts with conversations like this one. Here's Ken Coleman.

Ken, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.

Thanks for having me, Hala. I'm excited.

I'm excited for this conversation too. And so for everybody tuning in, you are right now living your dream career. You are a host of a nationally syndicated radio show. You are frequently co-hosting on The Ramsey Show, which is an uber popular podcast. And you are essentially living your dream career. You're known as America's career coach, but there was a point in your life where you were pretty unfulfilled. So I thought that we could start in your early career days.

Yeah.

Talk to us about your first soul-sucking job.

Yeah. Well, it's funny that you asked that cuz it was working for me. I was in my late twenties and I was on a path that I had carved out. Or certainly envisioned when I was 16. And I was in the, uh, process, I thought, of gaining a legitimate business resume. Uh, and part of this journey was stepping out on my own so that I could kind of take the next step. And I realized that, uh, the thing that I was preparing for, a potential run for political office, that was no longer the goal. And so here I am running the small business, which was just a means to an end, just a day job, but I was working for me. But it was soul-sucking work. I didn't enjoy it. It was in a sales role, and, you know, I could always sell, uh, but it was a means to an end. And then the end changed. And when, when that changed and I realized I no longer wanted to be involved in politics, I got disenfranchised with, with both sides of the aisle. It's just the whole process. I was— it just was no longer a place where I felt like I couldn't make the difference that I desired to make.

And so that was something that was shaking for me to my soul because I had been thinking about this since the age of 16 and had made strides and had been involved in politics, then got back out into the business world and was trying to build this caricature, if you will, to be this impressive person that could potentially get elected. And so when that changed, 2 things happened. One, it left me wondering, if not this, then what? And then the second thing that happened is I began to beat up on myself and I felt like I had wasted all this time. Here I am in my late 20s, like, bro, what are you doing? I was really crushing myself. You just pissed away 10 years. Now here you are on the precipice of 30, And I know we have a younger audience, but 30 really freaked me out more so than any other decade because it felt like I was now supposed to be certain things and this and this and this, and the time was ticking away. You don't think about it much in your 20s. So that put me in a position where I was really discouraged and confused at the same time, and that's a dangerous place to be in.

And so Uh, I snapped out of it, snapped out of it eventually and just began to work with some great life coaches, people that I had access to. And they gave me some exercises and I began just to walk through some life mapping and went back. And that's when I figured out, ah, there's a different direction.

Yeah. It's so interesting that you were so focused on politics. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people are in this boat. They're, you know, younger and they decide like, oh, I wanna be a doctor for instance. Mm-hmm. And then they go down this whole path and they go through school and then they become a doctor and they hate it and they don't know what to do and they feel like it's too late. I wasted so much time. What are some of the feelings that people have when you're not in the right career?

Yeah, all right, so number one, uh, there's a feeling of loss. And this is deeper than most people— I don't think most people would say to me, or you and I, if we went on the street and we started asking young people this, or people that feel this, they wouldn't, I don't think, define it as loss. But it really is a loss. It's an emotional loss because you feel like you've lost time. So what that looks like is that discouragement, there's some anger. You get angry at yourself, maybe angry at others, you know, if things haven't worked out the way you want to. Uh, and I, I also think there's a lot of fear. Fear of, okay, if I now pivot and go after something else, what are other people going to say? You know, maybe I got a degree in this. I love your example. Yeah, you go to med school. I mean, that's a lot of time and money invested. And by the way, we all know this, In pretty much every society in the world, doctors are considered to be very prolific people. They're respected people for obvious reasons. So now you're dealing with fear of rejection.

What are my parents, my friends and family going to say? What, you're walking away from being a doctor? Have you lost your mind? That's the fear of peers, the fear of rejection, if you will. Fear of the unknown. And that's what I was dealing with. Once I knew that politics wasn't it, I was sitting in this fear of the unknown, which I think Hala, is the greatest fear that we as humans face. You know, this idea of if I'm walking in a dark cave and I can no longer see the hand in front of my face, it's paralyzing. If we're driving in a car, a torrential downpour, the fear of what's out there and I don't know what's next is paralyzing. That's a big feeling. Then I would say doubt, the cousin of fear. Fear is I afraid of something bad happening if I move forward. Doubt is I don't believe something good will happen if I move forward.

Mm-hmm.

They're cousins. They like to hang out together and feed off of each other. But I think those are the emotions people are feeling.

Yeah. So let's talk about how you discovered your dream career because now you have an awesome career in broadcasting. Mm-hmm. We actually have a lot of similarities in terms of how we got to our dream careers in broadcasting. So talk to us about this 10-year journey to get to, you know, the upper levels of broadcasting, essentially?

Yeah, I'm glad you asked this because trial and error is really huge. And the key word here is trying. I think the best way to get over doubt is to try something.

Hmm.

Because when we try, we figure out an actual measurement to see, do I actually have any potential? You know, if I try to play golf, which I did a couple years ago, I found out really quickly what my potential is. Uh, and it's not good. You know, I've tried pickleball since and I've got a lot more potential in pickleball, right? Mm-hmm. So we think of this in hobbies, but this is also true of our profession. So the answer is I felt like I always had this desire to perform and I went back in a Life Map and it goes real quick. I went, okay, I always loved performing. As a kid, I was volunteering to be in the play. I was a little bit of a class clown. I wanted the pressure. I would, I, I would do things in front of the whole student body. So I found the theme here. That I actually like the pressure of people looking at me. And sometimes we get on kids for that, but I think that's a beautiful thing because most people are terrified of public speaking more so than death. We know this. This is a piece of data that's been out forever.

So I figured out, okay, I like to perform. I like the pressure that comes with the performing. So now I have to start to go, what type of performing do I want to do? Do I want to be a corporate Speaker and go out and speak and be a keynote speaker? Do I want to go into some type of nonprofit or ministry work where maybe I'm speaking on behalf of a cause? Do I want to go into hard news broadcasting where you're looking at a teleprompter and you're just kind of reading? Uh, do I want to go into sports? 'Cause I love sports, you know. Uh, okay, I thought I wanted to run for office. Do I want to go into political media? And so I went down the list. Sports kind of jumped out to me because I still love sports. I love talking about sports. So I tried it and I got into it and I did. It wasn't a major break, but I got some little breaks. And what I figured out is that talking about sports was a form of entertainment and I wasn't motivated to entertain people. That led me to realize that I want to communicate to encourage people, to coach people.

So it was a process of elimination. I'm giving you the super short process. But that's when I got to the point, I was like, okay, how can I now do broadcasting, uh, to encourage, to equip people? And that's how I started to figure out, okay, there is an actual world out here where you can communicate to help people transform their life. And that's that. And the key to that was I loved the sports broadcasting. It was fun because I was performing. But I really started to realize that if I did this every day, I'm gonna get bored with this pretty quick cuz I'm not deeply passionate about giving people my opinion on a sports team organization or a league.

Yeah.

So that was a process of elimination.

And we're gonna talk all about why passion is so important, not just your talents and things like that later on. But what I think is so interesting with your story is that it wasn't like that big of a change. Like if you think about it, right, being a politician, it's like you're still up there on a stage. That's right. You're still motivating people. Mm-hmm. You still have to use your voice. And sometimes it's not necessarily like a 360-degree pivot, it's just a slight pivot to a, a different career. Right.

So for great analysis.

So, so for example, when I was developing my career, I wanted to be a singer my whole life. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And I would, I would perform, I always had a solo. I was always the star of the plays. I would, I was writing music in college and actually I've started interning at Hot 97. Uh, I would work there for free for 3 months. 3 years and I was Angie Martinez's assistant for the reason of pushing my music at the station, not to become a personality. And then I learned about radio and I loved it and I realized, hey, I could probably do this and, and become really successful at it.

Mm-hmm.

I'm not, you know, I'm a good dancer, but I'm not Beyoncé. And I was like, well, I don't know if I'm really gonna be, make it as a singer, but I could probably really make it as an on-air personality. So I just pivoted slightly and used my voice in a different way. And then same thing with podcasting, it was like a slight pivot. So I think that's important for people to understand. You don't have to totally change what you're doing. It just might be that something is a little bit off with the career that you chose.

Yeah, that's incredible. I love that you shared your story on this. I, I hope your audience knows that. If they don't know it, they need to keep diving into that, because what you did is you just saw greater opportunity over here. It didn't make you less talented. It didn't make you less valuable to the world. And I think in some ways we can see the value you're providing now. I mean, it's hard to say. It's hard to say whether or not you would touch lives and truly transform and have a role in people's transformation if you had made it as a big-time artist.

Yeah.

So it's fascinating to see that. And I think that that's a really key point. I realized that there was a thread. The thread was, communicating on behalf of people. I thought it was politics, found out, nope, I can make way more difference over here if I'm communicating in this lane on this issue. So fun little exercise for people that may be in a position that you and I were both in that I didn't know back then, Hala. And so I've developed this now coaching 10,000 people on the air. 3 little fun questions. If you're kind of figuring out what, it's not this, what is it? And Hala, you made a great point. There's going to be some similarities. Even on the pivot, there's going to be similarities. So here's how you figure it out. Ask yourself, who are the people I want to help? And think of this through a work context, because all work, certainly honorable work, helps people. So who are the people I want to help? Second question, what's the problem or desire that they have?

Hmm.

And then the third question is, what's the solution or solutions to that problem or desire that I get excited about? So real quick review, who are the people I wanna help? What problem or desire do they have? What solution to that problem or desire do I get excited about? This is where we ideate, and this is where our heart— these are heart questions. These 3 questions are designed to get the heart to open up. And when the head, the brain sees what the heart is pushing up to say, I wanna help these people. So I wanna help, uh, people who are struggling with substance abuse. Great. What's the problem or desire they have? Substance abuse, a destructive world life that traumatized them. And so they reach out here, whatever. And then the third, so I want to help them through therapy or I want to help them through whatever. So the 3 questions are essentially the same question, but you're kind of coming at it from 3 different vantage points and each answer builds on the other. And by the way, you don't have to ask 'em in that order.

Mm-hmm.

You could be a person that goes, I know what kind of solutions I want to give the world. And you go, okay, what is that? I want to code. Oh, great. Who do you want to code for? And you can reverse engineer it. Well, I want to code for kids and make video games. Okay, great. So that's something that's really helpful that I wish I had developed for myself years ago. But now having coached people, those 3 questions help us go deep within so we can see who we really are and where we can really contribute.

Yeah, I love that. And I think that's super great advice, especially for people who are maybe a little bit older, like maybe in their 30s to be asking that question. So I recently had an interview with Gary Vee.

Yeah.

And one of the things that he says is that like in your 20s, it should be all about experimenting. Yeah. And figuring out what you're doing. So I'm in my 30s now and I have a multimillion dollar company. I have a podcast network, a social agency, a top 100 podcast, and I attribute all this success. Because I experimented a lot when I was in my twenties. I was working for free at a radio station. I was blogging, I was selling, uh, underground rapper showcase tickets. I was working at the mall. I was getting so much different experiences and I really didn't have it figured out. Uh, for like, I had other friends who already had corporate careers when I was still like trying to create a blog site and do all these other things. Right.

Right.

But I'm happy that I did that and I experimented. Yeah. And I know that you also did a lot of experimentation and working for free. So talk to us about the importance of acquiring skills so you actually know what you're good at, because you've got to test to know what you're good at.

Yeah, it's so true. You know, you have to figure out what you're good at first, because once we figure out what you came into this world hardwired to do from a talent standpoint— and again, you can— I've got 3 teenagers. Any parent, you know, can look at their kids and go, this kid's talented at this, this kid's— they just know. And we all know. And you've been complimented for this stuff your whole life. So even the most doubtful person watching us right now and listening to us right now, the most doubtful person, you just down, your self-esteem is down, your confidence is low. Can I just tell you something? You need to pick me up. I want you to just rewind your life. And throughout your life, there have been times where people said, you're a natural at that, or that just comes so easy to you. Maybe you saw your sibling struggle at it and you went, huh, it's easy for me. Here's my point. Once we all truly get self-aware enough to go, okay, this is what I'm good at naturally. With education, I'm learning, and experience, doing, I can take a talent and I can make it super, super sharp.

I can make it a skill. All right, so you think of a— I'm gonna use an old school kind of example here. You think of a potter. I don't know if any of your audience has ever watched a potter make pottery. It's fascinating to me. They take a lump of clay They put it on the potter's wheel and through water and their force of their hands working with the wheel, they shape this inanimate object of clay into something extremely usable. I want people— that's the idea of taking a talent and turning it into a skill. We start there. And once we figure out what we're good at and how we can turn that into a sharpened skill, now we can see the world through the lens of I've got these tools, think of them as power tools, not the old school handsaw, but like, you know, it's, we're doing it in 6 seconds as opposed to 6 minutes. So now I can see, all right, I have these tools and these tools, skills do this. And so as I begin to see what these skills can do, then that allows me to do 2 things.

Number 1, it allows me to build confidence. Confidence is everything. Mm-hmm. Um, I'll just tell you this as a guy who's been blessed, and I mean this, to just coach people that have called in for years, and it's just mind-blowing. And I have to coach them in about 8 minutes, which is— that's intense. But I tell you what it's taught me. It's taught me how to quickly discern what's going on and get to the heart of the matter fast. Um, but what I've learned is, is just about every caller or every person I've coached from a live stage, they're sitting there with a, with an alternative they think is the right choice, and they're ultimately looking to me for confidence. That's what I know. So I'm speaking about confidence being really, really important. So once I'm confident, I know what I can do. I'm confident. That's, that's what happens. And then clarity starts to come in. You know, you just look at, look at me. I suck in math and science skills. I mean, that part of my brain, I should have my brain studied when I die, cuz it's dark. It's just math and science really hard for me.

And so I was always good in the, the English or the history, much more verbal guy. So if I'm looking at me and I'm going, what do I do best? Well, communication, verbal skills. All right, so I tell you what I'm not gonna be doing. I'm not looking into health and medicine. I'm certainly not looking at medicine or sci— you know, so that's the idea. And it gives me clarity. Oh, I probably am wired to do people work.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

So that's the idea.

What's so interesting is that we always hear about imposter syndrome, right?

Yes.

And really imposter syndrome, in my opinion, is when you're in a job that you don't have the right skills for, you don't have the right talents for, and you feel inadequate because it's not your strength. Would you agree with that?

I think it can be that, yeah. Let's take that scenario. In that situation, you realize, I don't think I'm cut out for this because I don't have the, the, the talent. It's like me trying a new sport. It was the golf example earlier. I get out there and play enough and play with better golfers, I'm going to have some doubt as to whether or not I'm ever going to get there. Yeah, well, that in that situation is not a syndrome. That's reality. That's me going, I'm not going to be good enough. I just don't have the skillset, the mental makeup to be good in golf. So yes, it absolutely can be a sign that, and I'm glad you brought this up because a lot of times, even a guy like me in my world, I'll poo-poo fear and doubt because they are enemies of progress. But many times fear and doubt are protecting us. And in the scenario you just brought up, which I think is insightful. We've gotta have enough self-awareness that when we experience doubt, we know whether doubt is lying to us and holding us back.

Mm-hmm.

Or doubt's going, um, there's a reason that you have doubt. You're average at best. If you bust your ass, you're only gonna be average. And people don't pay for average.

Yeah.

It's, it's almost like, is this like a dictionary problem where you need to learn the ropes and the abbreviations that everybody's using? Or is this really like a a skills problem and it's not your strength.

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So let's talk about boredom and disengagement at work. Mm-hmm. Because I remember last year, so many of my conversations, people were talking about quiet quitting.

Yeah.

And so many people were quitting their jobs to become freelancers and entrepreneurs. I feel like it's sort of like steadied out a bit, but talk to us about the problem of being disengaged and bored at work right now.

Yeah, I love that you bring up boredom. It doesn't get talked about enough, I think, when we talk about these work trends. So boredom is just a function of there's just no challenge. There's no challenge. And challenge comes at us, I think, with two key, uh, characteristics. I'm challenged because it's difficult but I think I got enough chops to handle it. Okay. Or I'm challenged because I love it so much that I want to take that to the next level. And so what I mean is, well, we could go to the guy who's the GOAT on this. You can't spell his name. I've practiced it forever. Hala, you'll appreciate this. His name is Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, and I think he's Hungarian or Romanian, but he's got a very popular TED Talk on the topic of flow. And here's what his research over 30 years found. Part of being in a state of flow, which is near kind of a state of ecstasy, actually, this is not drug or sexual, it is a mental state that he describes. And part of getting to that flow is challenge. It must be challenging so that I am engaged to, I gotta really lock in, I gotta focus, I gotta put heart, I gotta put effort in, I gotta be at my best.

So that's the challenge piece, but the challenge and the aptitude or the ability to meet the challenge are the same.

Mm-hmm.

And so that's a huge part of this. And so boredom happens when one or both of those are really off. And let's be honest with you, boredom happens when we are doing a job that takes very little effort. And so we're scrolling on social media. Or we're talking to our coworkers because there's just no challenge. There's no challenge mentally and there's no challenge emotionally. And that's what I was saying earlier. The mental challenge is obviously it's got to push me and I got to really lock in. But the emotional challenge too is like, do I actually give a crap? Does this, does this work that I got to do actually, is it enjoyable for me? And then does it create a result that I actually think is great? Yeah. So if you put me on a spreadsheet, I'm telling you I'm dead because I'm not naturally good at spreadsheet and organization and all that stuff. And I could give a crap about organization. I got people around me who do all that, that are loving organization. I'm a creative. So the more I'm bouncing from thing to thing to thing and I'm engaging with you, that's fun for me.

So that's what boredom does. And so here's the deal. So to wrap this up, boredom will suck the soul right out of you because when a human being isn't challenged, then what happens is they begin to think that there is no challenge to be had and you kind of just retreat and settle. And it can just remove all— it creates a lot of stress, by the way. That's what's crazy. The more bored you are, the more stress you have. Hmm.

So interesting. And, and I know that you've been really passionate about helping people with their careers for years now. You have multiple books under your belt related to careers. And I read a quote from you that I wanna read. You said, we are all souls and we are created to contribute.

Yeah.

And if you don't contribute something that matters to you, then there's something missing. And so we talked a bit about challenge, but talk to us about meaning. Why do we have to have meaning in our work?

Because we are spirits. And I don't care where you come from in the world, what your religion is, what your political affiliation is, strip all of that away. And the one commonality that all humans have is somewhere along the way in our journey, we all wonder, what should I do with my life? And then we also think, what's the contribution I'm making? We all kind of want to make our mark. And I just think that's the way we're created. I'll just leave it at that. I think it's just there and nobody has to teach anybody to wonder that, because I think we all just want to make a difference. And I think all of us, no matter where we're from, uh, race, creed, all of that stuff, and we're in a more divided world than ever, but I think if you're going to find one thing that humans can unify around is good, healthy people want to help others. They just want to help others. So That is the issue. And so when we look at this innate desire to make a difference, make a mark, you can say it 80 different ways, then we realize meaning matters so much.

I'll give you an example. Throughout history, we've seen dictators, evil people use meaningless work as torture. I mean, multiple civilizations. Just go do your homework. You can pick any time of history, certainly not modern history, but I mean, I know of right now, I know of countries around the world where people are just pounding rocks to pay off debts. Now they're selling those rocks, so that's not what we're talking about. I'm talking about literally meaningless work as torture. So that's a fascinating thing because it's like, if there's no meaning behind it, you're like, why am I doing this? And that's psychological torture, not physical torture. And it's fascinating. And so why is that? Because we as humans, we're creatures of progress. So if I'm not, here's the dangerous slope. If I'm not doing work that matters to me, I eventually start to wonder if my job matters. And then it gets really scary. I start to wonder if I matter. So I think that that's the reason why meaning matters. By the way, the data from Gallup shows up all the time. One of the 3 human needs that Gallup said that workers have to have met, one of them is meaning and purpose in their work.

Two is recognition for their unique contribution, and three is a relationship with their leader. Now, here's what's funny. Those 3 needs, those are all heart stuff. And that just shows our humanness.

Yeah. So related to this point, um, I think the average age of my listeners is 35, 37, and that's not young, it's not old, it's sort of in the middle. And I'm sure there's a lot of people tuning in that are like, man, like I feel like my job is meaningless.

Yeah.

I feel like my life is meaningless, but I feel like I'm too old to make a change.

Mm-hmm.

I always say like, you're never too old to start something new. Mm-hmm. Um, I started my podcast pretty late considering, you know, how old were you? I was 30 years old when I started my podcast.

Oh yeah, that's great.

And I did so much in the last 5 years, you know, I like basically dominated the industry in 5 years. So like a lot, I had a lot of experience in radio and other things before that. So I started with a head start, but still like I, I got a lot accomplished. In that short amount of time. And a lot of people don't realize that in 5 years you could do so much. Um, so talk to us about that. Is there really an age where it's too late to start thinking about a new career?

No, I think you're right. Here's what I've told people when I've coached them on this, because I've had people in their late 50s. I had a lady call my show recently, was 61. So here's what I told her. I said, it's not too late. The only thing that you've got to adjust is it's not too late to start something new, but the amount of time you have to do that thing is shorter. But you've got plenty of time to start it and do it. You just don't have as much time to stay in it as a 25-year-old, right? At least that needs to be the expectation. But let's also be honest, certainly don't want to freak anybody out here, but This is the kind of thing that you and I talk about and that we do. You're not promised tomorrow. You could be 25 and something awful happened to you, completely out of your control, and you don't make it to 30. So from that standpoint, it's like to the 20-something, let's get after it. Don't put all this pressure on you to figure it out in your 20s, but do what Hala did, do what I did, go do something and work your way up.

So to that older person, it's not too late. The only mindset adjustment here is, All right, if I'm starting at X date, then I don't have the runway that I would've had much younger. So what am I going to do? I'm going to have proper expectations. And so you just measure reality with your timeline of life and go, I may not be able to do this, this, this, this, this, and this, but I can do this and this. And I think that's how you go, all right, the time I have, I've got time left. From this point on, I'm going to do something that matters to me. And here's what's cool about this. A hospice nurse in Australia wrote a bestselling book about the regrets of the dying. And one of the top 5 was, I didn't live the life that I truly wanted to live. And so I'm a guy that preaches reminiscing over regretting. And so it's at 55 or 65, you still got some time, go do it so that you can look back at least on a certain period of your life and go, I'm so glad that I did that.

Yeah. And not regret that you never took a shot.

And also doing it in a smart way. Like for example, using your books and your assessments. Yeah. And things to make sure you know your strengths, you know your passions, you know your mission, and you know what is a likely path that you'll succeed at rather than sort of just going at it willy-nilly without a plan. Uh, so this is a great segue into some of your work. So before we get into your new book, it's called Get Clear Career Assessment. Mm-hmm. I'd love to touch on some of your previous works.

Sure.

Um, in 2019 you wrote about the proximity principle. Mm-hmm. And you say that can change everything people thought about, they knew, pursuing a career that they love. So what do my young improfitters need to know about the proximity principle?

Yeah, we'll start with what the principle is and then what it does. The principle says this: in order to do what I wanna do, you can fill in the blank there.

Mm-hmm.

I've gotta be around people that are doing it and in places where it is happening. Young Hala did this. She thought, She wanted to be a singer. So what did she do? She went to the place where they were playing all the songs, and it was a brilliant move, right? Now, your, your idea changed, but again, what's interesting is, is that you, you've also could have used the radio as, as that, that idea of this is the right place. So the proximity principle is about people and places. The right people plus the right places equals opportunity. In other words, If you're constantly getting around the right people, people that are in the space that you want to be in, or similar to the space that you think you want to be in, that proximity is just there. I think your life is actually a wonderful example of this, and you talked about it earlier. Because you were in proximity, you pointed it out, it wasn't that big of a departure. You are in fact a performer. You're a top-notch performer. You may only sing for friends and family now, which by the way, I'd love to hear you sing.

I think your audience would too. There might need to be a single coming out later. But anyway, that's my ADHD flaring up. But I think that the issue here is if I understand that being around the right people is going to allow me to meet more of the right people, being around the right people, they're going to point me to the right places. I go to the right places, I see, I learn, I observe. Oh, by the way, I connect with more of the right people over here. And so what you've got is if I were going to draw it up, it would be an arrow here and arrow here, and we'd have the right people in the right places. And it becomes this cyclical process of learning, doing, and connecting. That's what it spits out. And the— and that formula equals opportunity to where if you do it right, Holla, people will knock on your door. In fact, some of the coolest experiences I got in my career where I got huge opportunities were because of proximity. I was the second option But they needed another option. But the only reason they thought of me is because I was in the orbit, if you will.

So in order to do what I want to do, I got to be around people that are doing it in places where it is happening. In other words, if I'm around the right people and in the right places, the right time will happen on its own.

Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that concept so much. I can think about my own, my past experiences, and I know that's true. Like figuring out podcasting. It's like going to all the podcast conferences, trying to get podcast mentors, taking calls with every single podcast company and trying to understand what everybody does. That's how you become the top of your field.

It's like, I'm curious, can I flip it on you? Yeah, because your audience loves you. They're here for you. I'm just like the guy guesting today. I'm curious, how did The Proximity Principle play into your specific story where you actually got the gig you got now? Like, it led to the show that's rocking it and you had this meteoric growth. I'm curious, what was your situation?

There's so much that goes into it, but I mean, first, to your point, getting that job at Hot 97, I thought I was gonna be a singer.

Mm-hmm.

Ended up learning the ropes of radio, took every opportunity that I could where if the DJs wanted me to blog, I was blogging. If they wanted me to come to a party, I was going to the party. If they wanted me to sell showcase tickets and host a showcase, I was doing that. So I was taking my opportunity B. Avenues is what I call them and getting all these experiences. Uh, also, uh, wasn't afraid. I'm a type of person that, you know, isn't afraid of going out on my own. So I started a blog site, but I didn't start it on my own. I recruited other women that were in the entertainment industry. So people who worked at Def Jam and iHeart and VH1 and, and then worked with them and learned from them and started this blog site. Uh, then I went into corporate. That's a whole other story. Yeah. I had like a, a ghost period of 4 years where I just didn't think I was gonna make it. I got rejected from satellite radio, MTV. I almost had a show on MTV. So it was like sort of like a dark period.

Yeah.

But then I started my podcast and when I started in the podcast industry, I really, once I decided that I was gonna like really do this, mm-hmm, I just tried to learn from everyone. So for example, Jordan Harbinger, who's one of the biggest podcasters in the world. Yeah. He's one of my best friends. He's my podcast mentor. He came on my show and when he came on my show, I didn't just leave it at that. I was like, what can I do for you? Can I write your commercials for you? Can I show you how I'm growing my podcast? Mm-hmm. Can I show you the, cuz he's sort of old school. Yeah. And I was like this new school podcaster, so I was trying to teach him stuff so he would gimme the time of the day. Right. And then finally he was like, wow, like you're really onto some stuff. Like I'll teach you how to grow your show the way that I know and you can teach me how to grow your show the way that, that you know. So good. And I was just doing things for free to get him as a mentor.

So that was like one of my first big breaks because he taught me all the secrets of growing the sh— of shows traditionally. Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and then when I started my network, it was like, how can I, I, I literally started a podcast network, have never joined a network, no idea how podcast networks work. So I would just take all these calls with all these agencies and I would just act like I knew what I was talking about, but try to investigate like what the hell are they doing? And pieced it together.

Yeah.

Going to all conferences and, and just trying to meet everybody until I figured it all out. It's all to your point. It's like, how do you just get in contact with people who know what they're doing?

Yeah.

And, and work for free for them.

Yeah.

Ask them lots of questions, do favors for them so that they help you in return. So hopefully, hopefully that was a good example.

It is. No, I mean, that is the principle living it out throughout the whole story. I could've just circled while you were talking, I could've pressed pause and circled right people. Then I could have said, right, like we heard of Jordan, was the right person. These women from Def Jam and these massive companies, right people, you know, showing up to Podcast Cup, right places. So yeah, it's a simple little idea. And honestly, I didn't expect the book to do as well as it did. I was just trying to simplify the climb.

Yeah.

Like if you just keep showing up around the right people in the right places, good stuff's going to happen. It's not romantic. Yeah, it's not even, it's not even that. It's not even a, it's just simple. But most people in today's world, they want to fast forward everything because we see a lot of unbelievable fast stories, and those are rare. Those are rare people, you know, because you look like a fast story. Because if you just look at your bio, yeah, and look at your, it's like, so all these young women could look at you and go, That's what I want to do. She did it. I want to do it. I can do it. And I'd go, okay, that's true. But are you aware of what she did that's not in the bio that led to everything that she was able to stack together that then let her go like this? And so it's like the challenge for young people, and I was young once. Okay. So I'm like the dad on this podcast.

I don't mind. You're still young.

Thank you. I'm older than you probably realize, but here's what I want you to hear. I was like the young. So this is not a knock on young people, and I can't stand when people, uh, you know, crap on the younger generations like millennials and, and Gen Z. It bothers me to no end. Here's the thing. The thing about being young is, is that you, you don't understand how long things take, and, and then you realize, wait a second, successful people They're willing to do what it takes. 'Cause a lot of you're going, I'll do what it takes. I'll do what Hala did. Okay. But you also waited as long as it took. That doesn't mean you were sitting around.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause waiting, by the way, is not a passive posture. It's actually a mature posture. In other words, you get up, you were busting at that radio station. You were going out here doing this, hanging out. I love that on this conversation, you've mentioned work for free, I think 5 times.

Mm-hmm.

And I can't wait to interview you about that. It's going to be a huge theme because that is a very controversial position.

Yeah, especially now.

In the world of TikTok, because we got a lot of snowflakes that freak out over that. But what they don't understand is that Hala was willing to wait as long as it took. In other words, she kept showing up, showing up, showing up, showing up, doing this, doing that, meeting this, learning this. And waiting is an active posture. It is, I'm going to keep showing up, doing what it takes, knowing that if I keep showing up, the right time's going to find me. And that's your story.

It's your story too. Yeah.

Well, it's every successful woman and man, every one of them. There is a— they don't quit. They keep showing up. And then we look at their story and we go, oh, wow, right place, right time. Bullshit. They were in the right place, and then the right time found them.

Mm-hmm.

And so are you willing to do what it takes? If I wait on the street with a camera crew, they, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I said, are you willing to wait as long as it takes?

Mm-hmm.

So that mean, are you willing to show up for 5 years, 7 years, 9 years? Mm-hmm. Not many people are.

Yeah. Amazing. Well, let's talk about your 2021 release. It was called Paycheck to Purpose, another bestseller. And in it you talked about talent, Talent, passion, and mission. And this is a theme that even now you talk a lot about. Talent, passion, mission. So can you define those three words in your own words and tie it all together?

Yeah. Talent is what we do best.

Mm-hmm.

Passion is what we love to do most.

Mm-hmm.

And mission are the results. Mission is that result that we care deeply about putting into the world. So if I use what I do best, talent, to do what I love, passion, to produce results that matter to me, mission. I am by definition on purpose, doing what I'm supposed to do, doing what I can uniquely do. The reason I came up with that methodology is through coaching people, and I was trying to help them see there's a formula here. The answer to what should I do with my life lies in those three things. What are you good at? What do you enjoy doing? What results move your heart? Okay, so for instance, an activist, their heart is angered, their heart is broken. Angered by an atrocity, broken for the people that are the victims. And so their heart moves them to that kind of work. Your heart, my heart, probably very, very similar, right? Our heart is about achievement and influence. Like we want to help people, we want to help people win here. Mediocrity is our enemy, right? And so when we understand that last piece, mission, the results that motivate me, we tap into the magic of motivation.

So talent, those are the tools so that we can do work that we enjoy, we love, we look forward to the work, we get in it. When you were singing, when you were on the air, when we're doing this right now, you and I really, really enjoy this communication piece, this learning, this digging. How can I learn from? How can I pass this on? But the last piece is so important to understand intrinsic motivation, and that's a sense of mission. We all have it. In other words, the person who gets up at 5:00 AM in the morning to work out does it only because they want to. My teenage boys, holla, only clean their room because they have to. Do you see the difference? I say to them, you're not going out with your friends this weekend until this bathroom doesn't look like a crime scene. Clean it up. You know what I mean? And what do they do? Ooh. And then they do it. Extrinsic motivation.

Mm-hmm.

They do it to avoid punishment or to get something they want, um, that is gonna be withheld from them. So the person who gets up for the reward itself, just because they want to, that's the idea. So those are the 3 elements, and that's when we can see that about ourselves. That's when we get true self-awareness.

Yeah.

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So your latest book, it's, it's Get Clear: Career Assessment. Find the Work That You're Wired to Do.

Yeah.

You already put out two books about careers, so why did you feel the need to release this new book?

Because this is actually just a manual. It's, it, you know, it became a bestseller, but we actually wrote this to get the assessment on Amazon. And so it was because I wanted to have more distribution, because you can't sell a digital product on Amazon. So kind of a fun lesson here, uh, you gotta do what you gotta do. And the assessment actually measures those 3 components. So I'm glad you asked me that. Paycheck to Purpose was providing that kind of 7 stages of what it looks like to get on top of your professional mountain. And, and we do it all through getting clear as that first step. Well, I developed an assessment because I wanted to give people a tool that in about 18 to 20 minutes You could get a direct report of the world of talent. This is your top 3, and then here's where you're above average. In the world of passion, the types of work, here's where your top 3 are, here's where you're above average. And your missional results, there's 6 driving missions from the world of psychology. I just adopted that, and it kind of tell you, this is your primary motivator.

And, and so you get a deep dive report in those 3 areas.

Mm-hmm.

Then we put your top results in a purpose statement that is essentially like a job description for you, a dream job description where you can lay it over the world of work and go, does this career path, does this job allow me to spend most of my day, let's call it 75% of my day, using what I do best to do what I enjoy to produce results I care about? That's as simple as it gets. And the assessment does that, and it's a fabulous tool. It's not a personality profile. You notice I didn't talk about personality. It's not going to predict some career for you because that's crap junk science. Can't do that. No assessment can. But what it does is give you self-awareness.

Mm.

And self-awareness is a superpower because when I can see who I really am and what I have to offer to the world, that clarity will lead to confidence and confidence will give you courage when you step out and life throws something at you, courage just isn't this thing that we can will up. It must come from a place of clarity and confidence. And so that's why we created the tool. The book itself, it's about a 45-minute read, and all it does is catches you right at your assessment results. The Get Clear assessment will give you what I just described, and the book is written as though I'm coaching you.

Mm.

So how do we take this purpose statement and start to ideate? Well, what can I do professionally? Is it medicine? And so we pick up with those questions I gave you earlier. People I want to help, problem or desire they have. And, and so that the little book is more of a companion to the assessment. So that's why we wrote it. Honestly didn't expect it to be a bestseller, just wanted to get the tool out. And so here we stand, and I'm getting an opportunity to talk about what I think is life-changing methodology because it's just, it's self-awareness. And here's what I would say to young people, everybody's chasing greatness. And I think that's misguided. I want you to chase uniqueness.

Hmm.

Because it is in your uniqueness that your greatness lies.

Oh, I love that.

You know what I mean? And because it's your contribution.

Yeah. This is so good for anybody who's thinking about making a career change. So again, I think one of the biggest fears is like, oh, I don't wanna waste more time. Well, you stop wasting time by having a plan and yeah, having self-awareness and kind of thinking through things and not You're just shooting in the dark, right? So I highly recommend this for everyone, but this is an actionable advice podcast. So what are some questions that people can ask themselves to understand what their core talents are?

Yeah. What have people always complimented me on? How do I wow others? You know, let, let's just rewind, hit the rewind button and ask those very practical questions because there's evidence. Mm-hmm. You know, now by the way, and then again, I wanna recognize something. For people who have had a lot of trauma and a really tough life, this will take some time to keep asking. But for most of us who've had a relatively healthy life and not overwhelmed by challenge, there's gonna be multiple times where you can pull up answers. How I wow others, what people say about me when they compliment me. These are basic questions that will reveal right away, oh, well, there's a pattern here.

And something that I love in this book that you talk about is super talents, which is something that I've never heard of. So what's the difference between a talent and a super talent?

What are they? Uh, super talents are the things that I'm excellent at, just absolutely through experience or education, uh, or just pure nature. I'm excellent. I mean, I'm, I'm up here. And that's what we give in the assessment, your top 3. That's where we call those your super talents. Now that indicates that below that are some solid talents. Let's use a simple analogy, 1 being suck, 10 being great. Okay? If you were an 8 or a 9 or a 10, I'd call that a super talent. A talent. If you are a 6 or a 7, I'd call that a solid talent in the form of, if I get more education, more experience, I put some hard work in and I really hone my craft, then I can become super. I'll just be real personal.

Um, yeah, what are your students?

I write. So in the Y world, I write books, I write articles, um, I give keynotes, I do monologs, on a show every day. I coach people live in front of thousands of people, just me and a mic, and it's kind of just, woo, you know, or I'm on the air and I got 8 minutes. So that's what I do. Of those things that I do, in my super talents, it would be the discernment and coaching piece. When I'm on the spot and I'm listening to somebody and I'm asking and digging, I'm really, really good at that. The other thing that is a super talent for me is the actual interview themselves. You know, when I'm interviewing people and pulling stuff out of them, If I'm honest, and I am, and by the way, I get feedback from my team, my solid talent on that list is the keynote. I'm good. I'm a good speaker. I'm not great. I'm working to become great. And that's my own analysis and also feedback. I think you gotta be honest about that. Writing, same deal. Good writer, not a great writer. So that's the difference between a super talent.

Now I can get better at the speaking and have, and I can get better at writing, and I have, but I still got more work to do. Whereas the other ones, uh, just from my natural talent, and I've had more time, I've got more experience in the other two with the interviews and coaching people than I did with the speaking and writing. So, so what do you do? You get better at it, but then you also hire really good editors so that I can take what I'm good at, which is a monolog. By the way, I'm better at monologs than I am a 40-minute keynote. I'm better at the quick, here's 3 points. So you go, okay, I need help over here with the writing, so I'm going to go hire really talented writers to edit my stuff and coach me and say, you're missing this here. You're not weaving this in. This needs a story. This is a little too kind of nebulous, kind of out there. You need to simplify this for the reader because I can't do that for myself. So I hope that answers your question. I think that's the difference.

And in my own life. So I gotta, so I gotta pay attention to that.

Yeah, totally. And it sounds, it sounds like you're not focusing on your weaknesses at all. It sounds like you're just trying to strengthen your talents and your super talents. And are you focused on your weaknesses at all?

Only to the fact that when we have a new team member join, like we just got a new associate producer on my team and she's awesome. And on our first meeting, I spent 10 minutes trashing everything that I do that's awful. And she was laughing and she really enjoyed it. And it did two things. Number one, it let her know that I'm aware of of these things that I suck at: being on time, details, can't ever find my own keys in my house. God bless my wife. And I'm just, I'm really open about it. So I'm only focused on it to tell everybody that I work with, number one, I'm weak in this area. Number two, I'm aware of it. And number three, in order for us to work well, both of us need to be aware of this. And the reason that you're hired is because you're actually strong where I am weak. So understand our job as a team for each other, not just for Ken. This isn't all about Ken. All of us have got to say, this is where I'm weak. And to the extent that we remove stuff off of our plate and move it to someone else's plate, we delegate, we hire for it, or we eliminate it altogether.

So yes, I'm not focused on it, but I'm super aware of my weaknesses and my life, by the way, organized. I use that loosely because I'm not very organized, but my life is structured probably in a way. And I've got team where, again, I operate in my strengths all day long, which is really, really rewarding.

Mm-hmm. That's cool.

And it's freeing. By the way, it's freeing to just go, I suck at this. Because by the way, your team already knows.

But by the way, it's because you focused on your strengths to become the top of your field so you could get a team to help you. 100%. With everything else.

That's a great point. That's the beauty. It's like, why are you in Western— I don't know what— and I'm going to bang on the Western Hemisphere because I'm a Western Hemisphere product, so I can make fun of it. I don't see this in the Eastern Hemisphere. I really don't. This is a Western way of thinking, and I'm not trying to philosophize. Just hang with me, folks. Western thinking is we go to school from kindergarten through 12th grade, and then it's college. And it's largely the same system. We memorize and we regurgitate and they grade us on what we get wrong. Mm. So your whole life you've been conditioned to be afraid of getting anything wrong. So what happens is that translates to your weaknesses. You experience a weakness as you begin to go to school or you try out for an extracurricular activity and you begin to experience weakness. You go, oh, I gotta fix that weakness. Instead of going, I suck at playing the clarinet. I should probably not play the clarinet.

Yeah. So true.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But we've been conditioned by a Western thinking to work on your weaknesses. And here's what's crazy, that's not a thing in the real world of work. I don't care what hemisphere you're in.

Yeah. It's so good. So let's, let's go a little bit broader and talk about the jobs economy in general. Yeah. And also for some of the entrepreneurs and business owners who listen to the show, I'd love to understand how we can translate some of this into empowering our employees. Mm-hmm. So first off, I gotta talk about AI. I've been doing so many AI episodes lately. Mm-hmm. Topic that keeps coming up is AI and jobs. So how do you think about AI's impact on jobs and what people need to think about?

I don't think AI is going to change jobs any more than Apple changed jobs, or pick another technology, right? It's just the internet. Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, any time in our history where we've had a major technological advancement Has it eliminated some jobs? Yeah.

Well, some. Yeah.

But what did it do? It spun off more. And so I actually think that AI is going to spin off jobs that you and I can't even imagine and create in our heads right now. I think the, the job market that my 15-year-old daughter is gonna experience is, we don't even know, we can't even describe it. So I'm not afraid of AI. I would say this. I've talked to Chris Do, who I think is one of the great minds on AI. I had him on my show and I just asked him, and I'll tell you what he told me. He said, AI, we can't forget that AI's effectiveness is completely predicated on the human who programs it. So AI's ability to do anything is based on a human programming it to do that thing.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that I'm less concerned about AI replacing your job. I'd be more concerned about a person who works really well with AI placing you— replacing your job. I think that— that— so I still think it's the human component.

Yeah.

And I— so for instance, I do believe the experts that say you're going to see a pretty good percentage of clerical jobs maybe go away because they can, they can program AI to do all the customer service. And we're already seeing in the hiring process where there's AI software where a human's not even involved sometimes in the second even to the second or third level of a job interview. So is it going to create efficiencies? Yes, but you will still need the human-to-human contact. So I'm not scared of AI, um, from a work standpoint. AI as it relates to warfare, that freaks me out. But that's not what we're here to talk about. But that freaks me out. AI in the world of work, no, it's not going to be a bunch of machines doing the work and the rest of us are sitting around eating Cheetos. I don't think that's gonna happen.

Yeah, I think your internet example was so good. I mean, if I think about my job now, it's literally I'm literally 100% based on the internet.

Yeah.

There's nothing else. I don't even have any like office or anything.

It's just right.

So it's so good.

Okay.

Uh, let's talk about companies and employers. Mm-hmm. So something that I've noticed, I have 60 people on my team now.

Yeah.

I've been running my company for like 4 years. Wow. And some of the rock stars that I had in my company that used to be rock stars, and I love them still, they're still great, but just giving it as an example.

Sure.

Star players 4 years ago, 4 years later as we've grown so much as a company, I feel like they're struggling to stay developed, right? Mm-hmm. Or evolve with the company.

Right.

So I, I sort of see some star players that 2 years ago, strongest players on the team. Now I'm like, ooh, you guys are struggling suddenly.

Yeah.

And you're not keeping up. How can we develop our employees and help them develop their strengths and skills? Like what can we be doing as bosses? This?

Yeah, uh, really good question. Let me give a quick context and then maybe dive into the specifics. I may ask you a couple questions to, to fully answer this. Yeah. First, we've got to understand as, as leaders and founders specifically that there are a, there are a good amount of people who got you there who won't get you to the next level.

Mhm.

It is very natural for companies to outgrow some of the key people who actually were fundamental in getting them to this certain spot. But this comes back to, again, talent, passion, mission. If you look at the wiring of some of these people that may be struggling with you now that didn't struggle back here, some of it could be fit. So as the leader, you got to go, is this a fit issue to the point that there's another seat and I need to get them on another seat where they are now able to plug into the new version of our company? Or do they simply just not have the right makeup for where the company is and where the company's gonna go? That would be from an executive and a leadership analysis. That's my practical advice. And you gotta be okay. And sometimes this really sucks. I mean, I've coached a lot of CEOs on this who I have to say, look, they just aren't built. They don't have it. They can't take you where you want to go. A silly example to try to drive this home. I'm big into sports, right? So it's like, it's like a college football coach, um, comes in and he's replacing another coach who left, and that coach ran a very different style of offense.

And so they had different kind of players. Maybe they were run-based, big line, you know, big, big guys, and it was like a power offense. And this guy comes in, he goes, we throw the ball all the time. So those first couple of years, you know what he's got to do? He's got to go, which one of these kids can stay with me and adapt? And if they can't, I got to let them go and I got to go recruit other players. That's the simple metaphor there that I think is the issue. To answer the second part of your question quickly, how do we develop our people? Well, number one, you got to know them. And I really like this methodology that I've shared. We were talking about people trying to find their own career, but from a leader standpoint, Knowing what someone's talents are, knowing what their passions are, knowing what their motivating mission is, you kind of got yourself a, a profile here. And so then you go, okay, where can they grow? And let's look at their solid talents and let's show them, hey, I want to invest in you, or I, I'd like to see you invest in yourself here.

This is where you've got some solid talents, but I think with some learning and doing, you can turn these into super talents. Yeah, that's the idea. Constant communication so that they have awareness. They also know that you care about them and you want them to get better, because when they get better, their paycheck gets bigger. At least it should in a healthy company. So that's the idea.

Yeah, and it's, it's a really smart thing to do as well, because if you find out that maybe there isn't a place in your company now, it's the best thing for them to go to a company where they will thrive. And it's like, part of being a boss is understanding that people aren't going to work for you forever, and you can help guide them them in, in their career. Okay, so last question. Okay, two, two-part question, and then we'll, we'll round this interview out. What do you feel like are going to be the biggest challenges for employers when it comes to the workplace? And also, uh, what are the biggest opportunities?

Biggest challenge is retention. Uh, we just are in a day and age coming out of the pandemic Mm-hmm. Where we saw so many people job hop. There's this tension in the workplace right now between coming back to work. We're actually back to pre-pandemic levels on people working in the office. Mm. So those numbers have shrunk back. And so there's this tension 'cause a lot of people still wanna work remote. Remote's drying up as a percentage. Hybrid is still there. I think hybrid will be the dominant model going forward, but we're in this weird tension. Retention is everything.

Mm-hmm.

To your point, people aren't going to stay with you forever, but to the extent that we can keep good people longer, then we're going to see productivity and profitability go. And that's the key to winning.

Yeah.

And that's the competitive advantage is people keeping good people longer. And so then the, the opportunity there is engagement. The single most important factor to retention is engagement.

Engagement.

If people don't want to be there, they won't want to lead there. And so you're hoping to develop leaders from within. Doesn't mean you have to, you can recruit from outside, but we want to create a culture where people want to be there and people want to be there if they aren't engaged. What does engagement look like? Well, I hate to keep singing the same note, but it's true. They need to be spending three-fourths of their day using what they do best to do what they enjoy to produce results that matter. It's your job to get them in a seat on the bus where that's the case. Here's what's going to happen. They're going to be really, really engaged because they're going to enjoy it. Think about that. That's not a bad day. Oh, okay. And so that's what keeps them coming back because there is true fulfillment. Oh, by the way, there's proficiency because they're good at it. And the fulfillment comes in with the love of the work and the work creates a result that they care about. Now after that, you've got to care for them. Two questions you're asking every week in a one-on-one.

How are you doing? That's a personal thing. Like, Hala, I know your dog's been struggling. That's got to be tough. Is she going to make it? Whatever's going on in their personal life, know enough about them where they go, but do you need to take a day? Take a day. Go be with the sweet pup. "Until you get a fit." That's real leadership. How are you doing? It's a personal question. Now, they're not going to give you that right away, but you ask it enough and you show them that you care about them, they begin to tell you what's going on. And for the purposes of not creeping or overstepping, but just they know that you care about them and you'll give them what they need as a person so they're not dragging stress from home into the office. That's key. Second question is, what can I do to help you win in your job? What can I do for you so you can win? That second question, they'll begin to tell you that the more you ask the first question, because until they know you care, they won't trust you enough to go, well, I don't feel like my training was long enough and I'm struggling here.

If I got a little bit more training on that, I could turn the corner and I could crush it. But that's a really tough thing for people to share. That's a vulnerability. So I think And that right there is where you can get engagement, because then people are saying, I'm cared for here, I'm valued here. I don't know if I'd get treated that way somewhere else. And that will lead to that loyalty and the longevity, which is what we want in engagement. I think that's the game changer.

I love all of this advice. You gave me so much to think about for my own company. I feel like when it comes to my career, I'm good there, but—

You're crushing it.

All the things that you told me about just how other people need to think about their career for me and other entrepreneurs listening, I feel like probably was super, super insightful. So thank you so much for all of that. I end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests. Okay. You can, uh, steer away from the topic. It doesn't have to be about today's topic. Just answer from your heart.

Okay.

The first one is, what is one actionable thing our young improfiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

Reflect at the end of every day. On two questions: where did I win and where did I lose?

Mm, so good.

That sets you up for tomorrow and just really being present enough to go, hmm, what did I learn today about where I won and where I lost? And I think it's, it's a game changer.

And what is your secret to profiting in life? And this can go beyond just money and business.

Being the best version of me, and I've got multiple versions. I've got husband, dad, son, brother, friend, coworker. And if I can continually look to where can I be better in each of those roles, I'm truly profiting.

Hmm. Well, Ken, you are awesome. Like, I had so much fun in this conversation. You are so smart. You're Ken, you've been so energetic. It was such a pleasure to interview you. Uh, where can everybody go learn more about you and everything that you do?

Yeah, thank you. KenColeman.com is the place to connect on all the things and, uh, really appreciate you and what you're doing. You are a, um, you're a bright star and you're a big, uh, screw you to all the people who said millennials were, they weren't the, they were the generation that was gonna be soft and all this. And millennials are the number one demographic in the workforce now, and you represent them well and you're crushing it. You're leading And, uh, our economy depends on your generation, and I'm cheering you on.

Oh, thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining us.