Transcript of Matt Abrahams: Think Fast, Talk Smart! The Mindset That Helps Entrepreneurs Beat Speaking Anxiety | Human Behavior | YAPClassic

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People would rather be standing on the precipice of a 30-story building covered in snakes and spiders rather than giving a presentation. Quite frankly, I think the other 15% are lying. We can prepare to be spontaneous. All communication, planned or spontaneous, needs to be goal-driven.

How can we get over our nerves when we're feeling especially self-conscious?

When it comes to managing anxiety, you really have to— the single best The best thing you can do in small talk is just be curious.

When we're negotiating or trying to convince even our partner of something, how should we communicate?

First and foremost, we have to—

Hey, YAF Gang! A lot of people think that great communicators are just born as smooth talkers. But let's be real, even the most confident person can freeze up when an unexpected question comes their way. Earlier this week, we talked about how to pitch like a pro. And today's The App Classic builds right on that because it's all about the one skill that makes every pitch, meeting, negotiation, and even everyday conversations better, and that's your communication skills. We're bringing back my conversation with Matt Abrahams, a Stanford professor and the author of Think Faster, Talk Smarter. If you've ever been put on the spot and felt like your words just disappear, stick around because Matt is about to show us how to think on our feet and talk smarter no matter what gets thrown at us. Matt, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.

Hala, I am so excited to be here with you. Thank you.

I am so excited too, because I'm so fascinated by communication and human behavior. They're two of my favorite topics, and you are just such an incredible expert in this area, so I can't wait to jump right in. We've all heard that old statistic that most people fear public speaking more than death, and that's just the regular planned public speaking, but it also sounds like based on your research that But many of us also fear impromptu spontaneous speaking even more. So just how scary is public speaking and spontaneous speaking to the average person, and why do you think that's the case?

So it is really terrifying. People would rather be standing on the precipice of a 30-story building covered in snakes and spiders rather than giving a presentation. Uh, up to 85% of people report feeling nervous in high-stakes communication situations. Quite frankly, I think the other 15% are lying. This is something that's just innate to being human. Those of us who study it have found it across all cultures. It tends to start around the same time. Young teens are when our anxiety around speaking in front of others really takes off. And you're right, you know, it's not just planned communication. It's also in-the-moment spontaneous speaking, which if you think about it, is most of our communication. So it is, it's part of being human. It, we feel threatened by the opportunity to be up in front of others. We— those of us who study this think it has an evolutionary origin to it. When our species was evolving, we would hang out in groups of about 150 people, and your relative status in that group meant everything. And when I say status, I don't just mean who's driving a fancy car, who has the most social media followings.

I mean access to resources like food, shelter, reproduction. So anything you did that put your status at risk would cause anxiety. And getting up in front of others was exactly that. So it is ubiquitous, yet it is something we can learn to manage.

But now in modern days, why is spontaneous speaking so important?

Yeah, well, because things come at us so fast and furiously. I mean, think about it. Uh, we are bombarded with information all the time. People are asking us questions. Uh, people are asking us for feedback. We make mistakes. We have to correct. Things go wrong, we have to apologize. We're in a situation where we have to make small talk. The interactions that we're having, both in person and virtually, require us to speak spontaneously and to shift very quickly as we do it.

And do you feel like the internet and things like AI and all this technology that's going on, do you feel like that's hurting our communication skills as younger people?

I don't know if I would say hurting. It's definitely changing and challenging it. Mm-hmm. There are more ways to communicate, and some of those ways are actually really helpful to us. We can be more efficient in our communication. We can spend more time with it because of, of tools that help us get messages out more quickly. At the same time, we miss the opportunity to, to connect. So I am an optimist when it comes to technology and communication, but we do have to adjust and adapt. And the big thing we have to remind ourselves is in the workforce, we have multiple generations, and some of the generations, more likely the younger younger generations are more comfortable and used to using technology, and those of my generation or older aren't. So we're in this transition phase, and we all just have to remember that we're all learning and we learn at different pace. But I do think technology can help us communicate. We just have to leverage it appropriately.

Do you feel like older generations, like Boomers and maybe Gen X, that they're better at spontaneous communication? Or do you feel like it's the same across the board?

So the need to communicate spontaneously, I think, is the same. I actually think that all generations struggle, but for different reasons. Younger generations, in my observation, tend to struggle with the connection piece. A lot of spontaneous communication is about connection. Uh, older generations, uh, my generation and even older, tend to struggle with the speed of communication because a lot of spontaneous speaking happens immediately and it happens quickly. So I, I think everybody's struggles a little bit, but the reasons they struggle differ based on just their experience and how they grew up communicating. That all said, we can learn to do this better.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, this is something we can actually improve. It's not this just natural-born skill and you have it or you don't. Can you share the story of how you got better at spontaneous speaking?

Well, there's several— it's a confluence of several things, but it turns out with my last name, Abrahams, A-B, I always went first through school, literally from kindergarten through university. I always knew where I sat. I always sat front, front row, closest to the door. So whenever the teachers— and I am a teacher and I know it's just easier to do things alphabetically— I would always be called on first. So growing up, I just got used to having to speak spontaneously. My friends whose last names were later in the alphabet would always thank me. They said, thank you, because you would start and it would give me time to think and plan and prepare. So part of my ability to speak better spontaneously, and I can certainly improve, as can all of us, uh, came from experience. And, you know, practice and experience is a large part of what helps us get better at all communication. It's like an athlete, you know, athletes train to be spontaneous. They do a lot of drills. So in the game they can be agile and respond to what happens. And we can all do the same thing. I either through good fortune or dumb luck with my last name, Uh, got a lot of reps early on in life.

Yeah. Uh, to be honest, this is a skill that I really, really wanna be better at because I feel like for me specifically, it is so important for my job. And I always prep for my interviews. I go through the books, but your book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter, I'm literally gonna go back and take notes and try to teach other people and do whatever I can to just retain the information as much as I can. So I'm really excited to go back and like, literally study it so, so well. And I don't feel that way a lot of, like about a lot of books. So Think Faster, Talk Smarter, guys, I highly recommend it. And I think, like I mentioned, for my skills, I feel like that's literally the number one area I can improve. And I'm really good at speaking about marketing and podcasting and business and sales and all the things that I'm an expert on, but I'm always having to talk to like, AI experts and neuroscientists and biohackers and people that I've like, no, and they're like geniuses. And then I have to like be smart in front of them. So just thoughts around that, like in terms of being comfortable about what you're an expert on and then talking in situations where you're like by far not the expert.

Absolutely. So first, thank you for the compliment. Uh, the book was written to really be applicable. There are try this parts of the book. You know, I think the only way to learn any communication, but especially spontaneous communication is by doing it. And so I've tried to make the book accessible in that way. And thank you for saying that it was successful, at least for you. So, uh, what I'm gonna— I'm gonna give advice that I give to people when I talk about small talk, because what you're asking about is, is really touching on the same issue. The single best thing you can do in small talk when you're meeting people you don't know, or you don't feel that you are at the same level they are, is just be curious. You know, we have this pressure we put on ourselves to be interesting. And I think what's most important, and I learned this from a guest on my podcast, Think Fast, Talk Smart, her name's Rachel Greenwald. She taught me this notion of the goal is to be interested, not interesting. So lead with curiosity. You don't know, have to know everything, but be curious.

And when you're curious, others will open up and share. And if they're good at what they do, they'll help make their content accessible to you. So we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to feel like I need to be the expert. I need to ask the best question. I need to have the best feedback. That's a tremendous amount of pressure to put on ourselves. And instead, instead we say, hey, I just wanna connect and I'm curious about what the other person says. That reduces that pressure. It makes it easier for the other person to share. So, you know, my mother-in-law had a black belt in small talk. She was amazing. And her secret was 3 sentence, 3 words. Tell me more. So just expressing curiosity, I think, hola, will help you. Now, you, you need to do your research. You need to understand the domain that the person's in. But just getting the person talking, demonstrating interest, being curious, allowing them space to, to respond, that's the best way, I think, to get conversation going and to elevate your knowledge level and appropriateness of what you're saying. Mm-hmm.

Related to this and something that I loved learning about in your book was your advice to be mediocre, to not be afraid to be so dull. And this is like what my biggest fear, like I won't say anything if I feel like it's not useful, I'll just move on to the next thing. So I'd love to just hear your perspective on like, how can we be more mediocre?

Yes. So, uh, as, as to prepare for this work I did that ultimately ended up in the book, uh, I did a lot of research across many academic domains, like psychology, anthropology, sociology, communication, neuroscience, and improvisation. And improv has just amazing insights into communication, especially spontaneous communication. And in improv, they have this notion of dare to be dull. In other words, the goal in improv is not to be an amazing star with everything you say. Instead, the job is to just get things going, move, keep things moving along. And sometimes the best way to do that is just to do it, be dull. So I've transformed that into what I call maximize your mediocrity. And I teach at Stanford, I teach Stanford Business School students, and, and I start my first class every quarter by saying, the goal of this class is to maximize your mediocrity. And holla, you should see these students' jaws drop. They have never been told to be mediocre. But the point is this, if you think of your brain like a computer. It's not a perfect analogy, but it works for this. If you have a laptop or a phone that has lots of apps or windows open, each one of those apps and windows is performing less well because the other ones are open.

You have limited bandwidth and you're spreading it thin. When I am putting pressure on myself to say the right thing in the right way at the right time, to be perfect, I am actually putting so much pressure on myself. I'm using all this bandwidth to judge and evaluate and assess my perfection. Or lack thereof, that I actually have very little bandwidth to actually do the communication. So when you give yourself permission to just get it done, I like to say it's about connection, not perfection. If I just connect with the person, if I just convey my information, I then free up all this bandwidth that allows me to do it really well. So I end my very first class by saying, I told you to maximize mediocrity, and the reason is so you can achieve communication greatness. When we remove that pressure from ourselves to be right, to be perfect, we actually free up bandwidth to help us get the point across and do it well. And I'll just say one more thing. This is why memorizing is the enemy of communication success. And I know for many people they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

If I, if I don't memorize, I'm lost. No, memorizing makes it harder to actually communicate because part of your brain is constantly assessing, am I saying what I had memorized? Which only leaves the other part of your brain to actually communicate. So it is better to have a roadmap, a structure, just bullet points that you are familiar with than memorizing word for word. So being mediocre is all about changing cognitive bandwidth to be in your favor.

I am obsessed with these strategies. It's like so exciting to me to learn this stuff. Um, I wanna step, I'm gonna drill in on dullness and everything like that later, but I wanna kind of step back and be more macro. So in your book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter, you have a 6 6-step method. Could you go over that at a high level for us?

Absolutely. Let me introduce the method. It really divides into M&M, my favorite candies. Uh, it's about mindset and messaging. The first 4 steps are all about mindset when it comes to communication in general, but specifically spontaneous speaking, anxiety looms large. We started by talking about that. Most people are nervous. Most people are really nervous. In spontaneous situations. So step number 1 is learning to manage that anxiety. Once we've managed that anxiety, the next thing we have to do is we need to do exactly what we talked about, not get in that mindset of I have to be perfect. So we have to focus our efforts on just getting the idea across. It's about connection, not perfection. Third, we have to see these situations as opportunities, not threats. Many of us see speaking in front of others as a threat, and we have to reframe that as an opportunity that can really help us to be successful. And then the final step of mindset has to do with listening. And many people are like, what? Listening is important? You're all— you're talking about speaking? No, you have to listen. You have to be able to focus on what is needed in the moment.

It is critical. So we start with anxiety. We move to how we focus on connection, not perfection. It's about opportunities, not threads, and then it's about listening. Then we transition to messaging. The final two steps are about messaging. When we communicate, we must leverage structure. Many of us just take the audience on our journey of our discovery of what we want to say as we're saying it. In other words, we ramble, we list, we itemize. It's very hard for others to, to remember lists of information. And then the final step is we have to be concise and clear. Many of us say much more than we need to say. My mother has this wonderful saying, tell the time, don't build the clock. Many of us, when we speak, say more than we need to. So the last two steps are about structure and being concise. So taken together, that methodology can help you feel more comfortable and confident in all communication, but especially spontaneous speaking. And you don't have to be an expert in each of those steps. Doing any work in any one of those areas will help you.

So I wanna drill down, and, uh, since you broke it apart in two parts, of split it, split it, mindset and messaging. Yes. And I'd love to use a personal example. I interviewed Tom Bilyeu. Do you know who that is?

I don't. Who is Tom?

He's this huge podcaster. So he's got this podcast called Impact Theory. He's huge on YouTube. He's like probably top 10 podcasters of all time.

My ignorance.

I, yeah, it's okay. He's huge. And because he was It was competition. My nerves were at a different level. Like I've interviewed Matthew McConaughey, I've interviewed Daymond John, Gary Vee, like all these celebrities and I wasn't nervous at all. But because he was like a podcaster, I just kept feeling like he's judging me and I kept feeling like, oh, he probably thinks he's better than me. And even like my lips were like quivering and like that never happens. And I felt like I just wasn't as present as I'm used to and I really wanted to impress him. Right. And so. I felt like I did a good job, like I had prepared. I feel like he probably didn't notice, but I felt, you know what, I could have done such a better job. Like for example, I feel literally 100 times more present now than I did yesterday in that interview. And it's cuz I just feel comfortable with you. I don't feel like you're judging me. And so I'm able to be myself. And even this morning I woke up and I was like, the first thing in my mind was like, you blew it.

You know, that's what I woke up with. And I was like judging myself. So I know this speaks to a lot of the things. That you were just outlining when it comes to mindset. So how can we get over our nerves when we're feeling especially self-conscious? What could I have done differently in terms of like internal dialogue or, or like physically like breathing or whatever I should have done? Tell me.

Yeah. So one, uh, thank you for, for being vulnerable and, and sharing that. A lot of people keep that inside and somebody as successful as you and who comes off as confident as you do. Sharing that you get nervous, I think, is great for people to hear. We all get nervous. It, it is the rare person who doesn't in high-stakes situations. And also thank you for feeling comfortable with me. I, that makes me feel really good. So when it comes to managing anxiety, you really have to take a two-pronged approach. You have to manage both symptoms and sources. Symptoms are what you physiologically feel. You shared some of those, and sources are the things that initiate and exacerbate the anxiety. So allow me to share a little bit on on both sides of that. So when you begin to feel nervous, your body is responding to threat. It's the fight-or-flight response. Everything that goes on for you is, is what would happen if you were being chased by somebody. So deep belly breathing is perhaps the best thing you could do. Uh, and when I say deep belly breathing, I mean filling your lower abdomen.

If you've ever done yoga or meditation or tai chi or qigong, it's this deep belly breathing. And the important part is it's the exhalation. So I like to joke, instead of saying the rule of thumb, the rule of lung is you want your exhale to be twice as long as your inhale. And if you take 2 or 3 deep breaths, like a 3-count in and a 6-count out, you slow down your autonomic nervous system. You'll be less jittery. You'll speak more slowly. You'll be more present. So that's a great thing to do to start. If you're somebody who shakes, you said you— there was a little quivering going on. That's adrenaline. Adrenaline's sole purpose is to move you from threat to safety. So we wanna move, but we wanna move with purpose. So big broad gestures. If you're standing in front of an audience, you wanna walk forward. Movement in a positive way that supports what you're saying gives that energy a place to go, and you will shake less. My personal symptom that happens to me, I blush and I perspire. I turn red and I sweat. That's 'cause your core body temperature is going up.

Your heart's beating faster, your body's tensing. It's like you're exercising. When most of us exercise, we sweat and we perspire. Aspire. So we have to cool ourselves down. Before I ever speak, before I'm a guest on a show like yours, I will always hold something cold in the palms of my hand. The palms of your hand control the temperature of your body, just like your forehead or the back of your neck. You, you've done this on a cold morning. If you've ever held warm tea or coffee in a mug and felt that it warms you up, we're doing the opposite, cooling ourselves down. So there are things you can do, and there are many other things you can do to reduce the symptoms. But we also have to think about sources. Sources are the things that initiate and exacerbate anxiety. In your case, it sounds like you didn't want to look foolish. You wanted to, to look your best being— you wanted to show up as best as you could. That's a lot of pressure you're putting on yourself. So by removing that goal, what's making you nervous in that situation is the goal to come off in the way you wanted to come off.

Off. A goal is a future state. So what's making you nervous is a potential negative future outcome. So if we can make ourselves more present-oriented, by definition, I'm not worried about the future. So anything you can do to get more present— some ways to get present are to do something physical, walk around the building, do some light exercise. You could listen to a song or a playlist like athletes do to get present-oriented. Start at 100 and count backwards by 17s. That gets you present-oriented. My favorite way to get present-oriented is to say tongue twisters. You can't say a tongue twister right and not be in the present moment. Plus, it warms up your voice. So by managing symptoms and sources, you can be more present-oriented. You can be more focused on what's happening in the moment and less nervous. So that was a very long-winded answer. I'm sorry, but the question is very real, and it's something that, that most of us can benefit by managing our anxiety.

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Yeah.

And I think one of the things that I was doing is in my head I was repeating, you are the podcast princess, Hala. Like, he's here because you have a top 100 podcast. Like, you are a great podcaster. Yes. And I was repeating like that stuff. Like, you're the podcast princess, Hala. You're the podcast princess, Hala.

I love that. That. So I say, I have a mantra I use, and my mantra is, you have value to bring. So I remind myself, because I can get negative, I can get my thought, you know, I'm not prepared, this person I'm talking to is so amazing. I just say, I have value to bring. There's something that, that this person has chosen to speak with me, be it on a podcast, be it a student asking me a question, be it somebody I just randomly meet. I, I have value to bring, and that alone cancels out that negative So that's great. You found a tool for you, which is, it's called positive affirmation, and that seems to work for you. That's great.

And how about the fact that I felt so embarrassed afterwards? Like, what's the importance of being kind to yourself when it comes to these things? Yeah.

So grace is really important in this. I, I think what helps many people is to realize that they're not alone in this, that lots of people suffer from this. A real quick story. The very first book I wrote was called Speaking Up Without Freaking Out. It's all about how to manage anxiety. Anxiety. I was in San Francisco Airport. They called my name over the loudspeaker because the chair I was supposed to sit in on the airplane was broken, and they wanted to let me know that. I come back and the guy standing next to me said, you wrote that book on speaking anxiety? I said, yes. Have you read it? He said, no, but it helped me. I was like, you didn't read the book but it helped you? What do you mean? And he said, just knowing that a book like that existed helped him normalize his fear. He said, I thought I was the only one because at my work everybody's so good, but I realized you didn't just write the book for me. So that my point here is you have to give yourself a little grace. It is normal and natural in the presence of somebody you admire, in the presence of somebody who is very qualified and accomplished, to want to do well and to be nervous.

That makes complete sense. So allow yourself that permission to be nervous and then remind yourself that you have value to bring, to do, that you can do some things in that moment. And as you said, your conversation yesterday turned out great. And he didn't even know you were nervous. So we have to remind ourselves of that thing, that of that. The biggest thing that can help here is reflection, not rumination, but reflection. Reflect now, Hala, on how and what you did to get yourself through that. So the next time you interview somebody where you might feel that way, you remind yourself it is through that reflection that we can change. If we don't take the time to reflect, if we don't give ourselves grace, We're gonna fall victim to that same cycle over and over again. So congrats on doing it and congrats on feeling a little embarrassed. That means that you, that this was important for you.

Totally. And I feel like now that I've like totally reflected on this, like this conversation couldn't have came at a better time. I feel like the next time I interview somebody who's a huge podcaster and I feel like is gonna be judging me, I can kind of give myself some grace and do some of those activities that you mentioned to just get myself ready. Like, okay, Holly, you are gonna feel nervous. This is how you're gonna get over it. So one of the things that I do when it comes to spontaneous speaking that I don't know is right or wrong is I tend to be comfortable sharing my own stories. Yes. And I was doing that a lot, especially when I first started podcasting, to the point where I got some bad reviews where some people were like, Hala, stop talking about yourself. And then I, and then I got like more careful about, I'm only gonna share stories that I don't share very often, and I'm gonna share new stories. And not tell a lot of the same stories, cuz my listeners listen to more than one episode, right? Uh, so what are your feelings about talking about yourself when it comes to spontaneous speaking?

So this is a great question because you have to find a very delicate balance. Those who study communication and conversation distinguish between supporting and switching tactics. And the idea— a supporting tactic is where you reinforce what the other person is saying, and a switching tactic is where you switch to something that you want to say. And I'll link this to your question in just a moment. So if we're having a conversation, Hala, and you say, hey, I just got back from Hawaii, and I say, oh, which island did you go to? That's a supporting tactic. That invites you to say more. If I say, oh, I just got back from Costa Rica, that's a switching tactic. Tactic. Hmm. You want to balance these out. And the research suggests you want to be slightly more supporting than switching, because that puts the other person in the position of you demonstrating interest and you wanting to hear what they have to say. The same ideas apply to disclosure of our own stories. We want to share some, but not too much. So the, the other person, we should be communicating in a way that gets the other person to talk more.

More, but we still have to share some of our story. So the rule of thumb that they have in this switching versus supporting approach is you want two-thirds supporting, one-third switching. And I think the same idea when it comes to telling stories about ourselves or that are very personal to us versus soliciting stories and input from other people. So I think you should tell some because if not, it just sounds like you're interrogating people if you don't share anything about yourself. About yourself, but if you say too much about yourself, then it becomes almost rude. So I like this 1/3 you talking, 2/3 them talking approach.

Yeah, I feel like that's good because people love to talk about themselves. So if you want somebody to like you, you actually want them to talk about themselves cuz they'll feel like it was like a really happy, positive experience cuz they got a chance to speak about themselves.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why going into those situations thinking about questions you might want to ask is always a good thing, even if it's spontaneous, Even if I, you know, I'm going into a, a party or to some kind of conference setting where there's gonna be people milling around, I, right before I go in the room, I can come up with 2 or 3 questions that I'm interested in. And that's how I start. Because you're right, people like to talk, people like to share information about themselves. Having those questions at the ready can really help you.

And when people are talking, is there certain things we should be listening for? And things that can help us keep the conversation going?

Absolutely. So first and foremost, we need to listen better. We're just not good listening. We listen for the top line, and then we begin judging, evaluating, rehearsing. You need to focus your listening. You need to listen for the bottom line. Uh, what I teach my students and what I try to do myself, and when I host my podcast, when I just talk to people on the street, I try to listen to paraphrase. So as somebody's talking, I'm saying, what's the core essence? What's the bottom If I had to paraphrase or summarize what they said, what would I say? And when you listen that way, you listen more deeply. So in conversation, I'm listening for the bottom line, and that's where I start my response. So I might even comment on what that bottom line is. I might say, oh, you, you're really curious about this. So I name it and then I add to it. So we have to listen better. We have to listen for the bottom line. So as you're listening to somebody, think about if I had to paraphrase what they're saying. What would I say? So use that as the starting point for what you wanna contribute next.

Hmm. This reminds me of something that Chris Voss does. Do you know who that is? Yeah. Split the Difference.

I just interviewed—

I don't remember what the word is.

Yeah. I just interviewed Chris for my podcast. Great guy. Really interesting insight.

Yeah. I've interviewed him like 5 or 6 times, so I should definitely remember what I'm talking about right now. But basically I don't remember what it's called. But you, you paraphrase what somebody's saying as a question. So yes. Then they'll just say more information.

He likes to talk about mirroring.

Uh, that's what it is.

Yeah. That's what he's mirroring. And then Charles Duhigg calls this looping. It's this notion of you, you start with what the person says, you loop back to it and then you move forward. And, and they're both talking about exactly the same thing. It's, it's you recognize what the person has said, which validates them, which, which builds connection and trust. Trust, but it also gives you a starting point for what comes next.

Okay, Matt. So I know this is spontaneous speaking, but is there any way that we can actually prepare? Because when it comes to wanting to prepare for something, if you know the general topic, I'm assuming that you can at least prepare a little bit, even if you're trying to talk on the cuff, right?

Absolutely, Hala. You are, you are right. We, we can prepare to be spontaneous, and that sounds counterintuitive, but it, it really is, is true. One of the key ways to get yourself prepared is to become familiar with structure. Most of us, when we are nervous and we're put on the spot, we just list and itemize things. We just say whatever comes into our mind, and that makes it really hard for the audience, the person or people we're talking to, to digest it. A structure is a logical connection of ideas, a beginning, a middle, and an end. Let me give you an example. If you've ever watched an advertisement, you have likely seen the structure problem, solution, benefit. Advertisements start with some issue challenge that exists. They then say how their product or service fixes that issue or challenge, and then the how you benefit. So if you're selling cars, selling medicine, selling alcohol, does not matter. They all follow that structure. It's a logical connection of ideas. If you are familiar with structure, structure. You have a recipe that you can follow for answering questions, for making small talk, for giving feedback, for apologizing, whatever the situation is.

So if it's okay with you, can I share my favorite structure that I think works in a lot of situations? Would that be all right?

Yes, of course.

Excellent. So it's 3 simple questions. What? So what? Now what? The what is the information you're getting across. It could be your idea, your product, your update, your feedback, back. The so what is why is it important or relevant to the person you're talking to. And then the now what is what comes next. Maybe it's, do you have questions for me? Let's go into that other room. Let me show you something. It's the next step. So let me give you just real quickly a couple examples of how this might work. Imagine you're in a meeting and your boss says, hey, give me an update on that project you're working on. You hadn't prepared for an update, so you follow this structure. You answer the 3 questions. The what is your update? Here's what I've done. The so what is, here's why it's important, it matches our goals or expectations. And then the now what is, here are the 3 things that I need to have happen before I can progress. So simply by answering what, so what, now what, you've given a structured, packaged, concise response to the update. Similarly, let's imagine you're walking out of a different meeting and somebody turns to you and says, how do you think that meeting went?

Again, you're not prepared to give feedback. You didn't know you were going to have to give feedback. Feedback, you simply answer these 3 questions. I might say, I thought the meeting went great, except when you talked about the implementation plan, you spoke quickly without a lot of detail. That's the what. When you speak quickly without a lot of detail, people might think you're nervous or unprepared. That's the so what. Next time, slow down and add these 2 additional bits of information. That's the now what. So in 2 very different situations, both spontaneous, By just answering those questions, what, so what, now what, that structure helps me get through it and it takes pressure off me because I don't have to think about how to say it. I know how I'm gonna say it. I'm just gonna answer those questions. I just think, I just have to think about what those answers are. So structure is key and you can prepare and practice structure. I challenge all of your listeners when they are done listening to this episode or any of your other awesome episodes. At the end to simply say, what was the key takeaway for me?

Why was it important and how can I use it? And by drilling that just for 10, 15 seconds, you get more used to using this structure so it becomes natural to you. So structure is a really key ingredient to helping with all these situations we've been talking about.

Yeah. And when it comes to structure, would you consider storytelling and stories to have structure too?

Stories are structures. That's all they— another structure is just another fancy word. Word for story. All stories have a structure, right? Beginning, middle, and an end. Uh, so yes. So when you, when somebody says tell more stories or this is about storytelling or narrative, what they're really saying in my, what I am hearing them say is use a structure, use a structure that engages people. And so yes, I, I see those as synonymous and, and very important.

And what kind of other structures do you lay out in your book or anything else that you wanna share about structures?

Oh, thank you. So, so the whole second part of the book, the first part of the book is about the 6-step methodology. The second part of the book is about 6 specific spontaneous speaking situations. And for each one of them, it has a particular structure that I, that I like teaching. So let me give you an example of, of one. Many of the people listening to your show are entrepreneurs or people who have ideas that they want to motivate others by. I have a structure that I really like for pitching. So this is short persuasion, like an elevator pitch. This structure is different from what, so what, now what. This structure is just sentence starters. You finish these sentence starters. So it's what if you could, so that, for example, and that's not all. If you finish those 4 sentence starters, you have a good pitch. So Hala, I'm gonna ask you to put me on the spot if you're willing to do this.

Okay.

Will you pick, pick a particular product or service that I would know, something I know, just give it to me and without any thought, I'm gonna pitch it. Pitch it just using this structure. So if I do my job right, I'm going to demonstrate spontaneous speaking. So I don't know what you're about to say. You didn't know I was going to ask you to do this, so we're both being spontaneous. Uh, give me something to pitch, a product or service that I would know about.

A Mac laptop.

You did that because I had problems with my Mac laptop. And maybe I, I, I, anyway, so, uh, what if you could easily access all of your information in a sleek-looking device so that you could be prepared and have the information you need at your fingertips. For example, imagine you are flying from Los Angeles to New York and you have to create a presentation that you have to deliver when you land. Wouldn't it be great to have a small, compact, good-looking laptop that you could work and that's not all. You get access to a whole community of applications and users that can be supportive of your efforts.

Hmm.

So by simply answering those specific prompts, what if you could, so that, for example, and that's not all, you can craft a pitch. What if you could gets people's attention. Attention is the most precious commodity we have in the world today. So that makes it relevant. Relevant. Here's what's important for you. For example, grounds it in reality. We remember detail better than we remember high-level information. And that's not all, extends and expands whatever you're talking about beyond the moment. So just knowing those 4 sentence starters can help you pitch anything in the moment.

And one of the things that can also help us with having our speeches be sticky and having people remember what we say is brevity. So speaking of Apple, you talk about Steve Jobs and he's got the iPod and, uh, he's got very focused messaging. A thousand songs in your pocket is the focused message. But how can we come up with our own impromptu brief message? Like what are some tactics for that?

Yes. So two things beyond having a structure, structure is critical to being more concise. Two things. One, you have to think about your audience and what's relevant and most important to them and then focus everything you were, you're doing like a magnet towards that relevance. So I am constantly thinking to myself, what is most important to my audience in this moment? And that's what helps me focus. Second, all communication, planned or spontaneous, needs to be goal-driven. A goal has 3 parts: information, emotion, and action. What do I want the audience to know? How do I want them to feel? And what do I want them to do. So before I walk into a conference room where I might get questions or be asked for feedback, I think, what do I want this audience to know? How do I want them to feel? And what do I want them to do? By focusing on relevance and by focusing on your goal, you will become more concise and clear. And if you can then convey your message in a structure like we just talked about, that's how you truly become relevant and focused.

And it makes sense because in this podcast, when we first joined, I was like, hey, it's a lot of entrepreneurs, and then you decided out of all examples to talk about the pitching example.

Yes.

Because you felt like it would be very relevant for our audience. And as I said, we are getting so meta right now. Yes.

That's exactly what I did.

Yeah. Um, so one of the exercises you suggest to help us with focus is called a brevity challenge. Can you tell us about that? Yes.

So most of us, as I said, say more than we need to do, and so we can actually challenge ourselves to say what we're saying with fewer words. This, there's an, this is a game that comes from the world of improvisation where you start by saying something and then you cut it in half and then you cut it in half again. So a great way to do this is to look at something you've written, maybe even a text or a document or something, and challenge yourself to say it in half the number of words. How would you do that? And again, I'm not saying that whatever the result of that is in half number of words is the right way to do it. To do it. But what we're training our brain in this brevity example is we're training to prioritize. Here's a great use for AI, by the way. If you've written something, an email, a document, put it in AI and say, make it half as long, or highlight just the key elements, and then look at what it comes out with. I'm not saying to leverage what it comes out with, but just look at what it has done to make it more concise, and then use that as a reference point.

Say, oh, you know what it did? It cut out all the big words. Or do you know what it did? It took all of the action verbs and put them up front. So you begin to see how you can prioritize and get briefer in what you say. So whenever you write something, you can always challenge yourself and say, how would I say this in half as long? And that by training that brain, by training that process, you train your brain to do that in real time.

I know, uh, Mark Twain, I think, has this quote, writing is easy, you just gotta cross out all the wrong words, or something like that.

Absolutely. He's got one. One of the most wonderful sayings, uh, uh, about all, about communication. But right, it's about self-editing, but doing it very quickly. And the more you practice it, the better you get at it.

How do we get better at reading the room in business situations?

Yes. Yes. So my podcast is Think Fast, Talk Smart. The book is Think Faster, Talk Smarter. The think fast and think faster part are all about pattern recognition. And we have to remind ourselves that whenever we're communicating, patterns are at play, and we have to be looking at those patterns and cataloging those patterns. Many of us are in repetitive situations. We have meetings with the same people over and over, or we do similar tasks like you interview— now you interview different people, but you're interviewing, and you can begin to look and notice patterns. Many of us are just so focused on getting through our communication that we don't spend time focusing on the patterns. And if we can train ourselves to look at those It helps us read the room. That's what reading the room is. It's pattern recognition. So we might notice that 10 minutes into most of our meetings, the energy level dips. Well, that's a pattern, and I can notice, hey, we're coming up on 10 minutes, maybe I should do something different. So reading the room to me is all about just observing what's going on in the moment and then reflecting on it after the fact and coming up with a plan on how to deal with it in the future.

Future. So we have to take the time to get a little meta in our communication, to observe what's going on, and then to really reflect, and then be prepared to adjust and adapt when we see those things play out.

I remember one of the first interviews that I ever did on this podcast was with Chase Hughes.

Yes.

And he's this like behavioral expert, and I remember he told me if people start blinking really fast, it means that they're not paying attention. Right. And that like if somebody's blinking normally, that means that they're engaged. But if they start blinking really fast, it kind of means that they're not paying attention. And of course if they're looking around like at their shoes or like not, well, hold on.

I'm now gonna just, I'm just gonna stare the whole time. So you think I'm paying attention to, yes. No, you're right. But you have to observe that. You have to notice that, right? In order to act on it.

Yeah. Um, how about when we're negotiating? I know that's a big thing also, uh, for entrepreneurs. When we're negotiating or trying to convince even like our partner of something, how should we communicate?

Oh, this is a big topic. On, uh, Think Fast Talk Smart is all about communication tips, and we've spent a lot of time talking about negotiation. So I've talked to lots of experts, as I know you have. Let me summarize a couple things that I've taken away from all of my interviews. First and foremost, we have to know what we want. What is it that we want, and what is it that we're willing to give up and what is it we— our non-negotiables. Many of us enter into negotiations without a clear what's our non-negotiable and where can we negotiate. That's number one. Number two, we have to take the time to think about the other person's position. How much do they prioritize what it is we're negotiating over? We have this assumption that we make that everybody that we're dealing with holds whatever they hold at the same level we do, right? And let me give an example. My wife and I over the years have developed this technique so we don't fight and our negotiations go better. When we have a, uh, something that we might disagree on and have to negotiate about, before we ever start, we declare how important that is to us.

So let me give a really mundane, simple example. Let's say we want to go out to dinner and my wife really wants to go to Italian food and I really want to do Mexican food. That could be a negotiation, that could be a fight. But before we do it, we simply say, declare our priorities. She might say, going to Italian food, that's an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10. And for me, Mexican food's a 4. There's no negotiation. There's no conflict. What happens is I might assume, well, her desire is the same as my desire and I'm gonna really push. And now all of a sudden, because I'm pushing, her desire rises cuz hey, nobody likes to be threatened. So figure out priorities as best you can because you might not even need to negotiate. The third bit of advice is to think about the approach and metaphor that you're bringing to the situation. Michelle Gelfand, who's a colleague of mine at Stanford's Business School, studies negotiation, and she says, mind your metaphors. A lot of us, when we approach negotiation, see it as a battle, see it as a fight. And when you see it that way, that changes your whole demeanor, how you approach it, the words you use.

But if you see it as a dance, or as a conversation that changes it as well, or a problem to be solved. So think about how are you approaching it. And then the last thing, and I'm sure this isn't surprising, you have to approach from a place of listening. Many of us go in and say, here are all the reasons we should do it my way. Start by listening. Start by asking questions. That also connects you, but you get, get an idea of what's important. So if you follow those 4 steps, really know what your non-negotiables are, think about the person's prioritization. How are you approaching it in terms of your mindset, your metaphor, and then ultimately listening, you're gonna negotiate better.

Hmm. Okay. My, one of my last questions for you is about networking. A lot of us had to have to go to these networking events. How can we best prepare? Like you mentioned, even though it's spontaneous, there's still preparation involved. And then how do we excel at small talk?

So when you're networking, just like when you're interviewing, first and foremost, you should be thinking about who are the people that are in the space or in the room or on the Zoom that you're, you're connecting with. So do some research, reconnaissance, and reflection about who the people are that you might be speaking to, because that will help you focus your content. Second, come up with themes that you want to get across. So in a networking environment, what are some key ideas I want to get across and share? And you can plan those in advance, whatever those are. You might wanna, you may wanna share your opinions or you have strong opinions on AI or, or something something going on in the news, that's your theme. And then stockpile some specific support for those themes. Maybe it's a story you have, maybe it's some data you heard about, maybe it's a conversation you had with somebody else. So you stockpile those. Think of it this way, you know, uh, if you ever see a restaurant's kitchen and everybody's cooking fast and furious during a, a high peak time at the restaurant, they have everything prepared in advance.

Everything's pre-chopped, pre-sautéed, so they're just assembling pulling. You can do the same thing. Think about these themes and then think about these different types of support for those themes. So when I'm in the networking situation and somebody brings up a point, I could say, I can connect that point to this theme I wanted to get across, and I can pull in this example. So you've taken the pressure off of yourself to be, uh, to originate in the moment, and instead you're just connecting and building, and that can actually help you feel better, and it allows you to be more agile and spontaneous. Think about this. An athlete does drills for certain aspects of the game. You know, professional basketball players do a lot of free throws, right? Or they do a lot of positional work. So if I'm in this position and the ball comes to me in this way, I shoot it in that way. That's what you're doing. So when it happens, you're free to respond, but you've done that pre-work. So have a clear theme, have some supporting material that you can pull into that theme. And then when it comes to small talk directly, start with questions or observations.

Ask somebody a question or observe something that's happening in the environment. Just comment on it. I made a great, good friend simply by standing in line at a conference. I didn't know anybody. I looked around and I noticed lots of people were dressed in blue. It wasn't a uniform, it just happened to be coincidence. I turned to the guy, I said, I didn't get the memo on wearing blue. He looked around and said, you're right, everybody's wearing blue. Started a great conversation. We've now become friends. When I travel to where he lives, I visit him. All the time. It started simply with an observation. The last thing I'll say is the thing that challenges many people in small talk is getting out of it. How do you end it? Um, Rachel Greenwald, who I mentioned earlier, taught me this technique. She calls it the white flag, not for surrender, but in auto racing, the white flag is what you wave right before you end the race. So when you want to end small talk, most of us just rely on biology. I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, I have to go to the bathroom, bathroom. It's awkward.

Instead, you wave the white flag, you signal you're going to leave in a little bit. If you and I were talking, I might say, I've really enjoyed this conversation. In a few minutes, I'm going to go over there and talk to people. But before I leave, I want to ask you one more question about something you did on a recent podcast. So do you see what I've done there? I've signaled that I'm going to leave soon so you can prepare yourself. It's not a surprise, but I dive in for just a little bit more information. So Before you start, you do your stockpiling in your themes and you now know a way to end. It makes networking and small talk so much easier.

Oh my gosh, that was such good advice. And I don't do this on purpose. I, I never did it on purpose, but because I go speak at so many podcast conferences, what happens is I'm preparing these like awesome presentations and I'm pulling all this data and then I really do like my, the whole time I'm just like touting what I learned in my presentation to everybody when I'm doing small talk, and that's my theme, and I never realized that I'm actually doing that. So you, uh, in your book, you talk about an NPR journalist who has a killer last question that she likes to ask her interviewees. Uh, can you tell us about this killer last question and why it works?

This is Deborah Shiffrin you're talking about. Uh, Deborah's also a colleague, uh, at Stanford. Um, and, and before I tell you the, the question, uh, her goal is is to give people an opportunity to say more. So a lot of us in our dialogue, we ask a question, they respond, we ask a question. But if you actually pause for a moment and you ask people and you just give them an opportunity to say more. So not only does she say, is there anything else you'd like to say? Her magic question is, what, is there anything more you'd like to add? She also builds in a pause. So when somebody's done answering a question, if you pause just a little bit before you ask the next question or comment on it, you give people space. We are so busy and our attention is so pulled in different directions. Space to say more is a gift. And so if you allow people more space, you actually show that you care. That you want to learn more and that you want to connect. So I encourage all of you, when you are having deep, meaningful conversations or want to have deep, meaningful relationships, pause a little bit, give people space, and really listen to what they say, and it will transform those relationships.

Hmm.

So we're going to get Meta again. Is there anything important that I neglected to ask?

Oh, well, thank you for that opportunity. I think one of the things we did not talk about that is important for us to think about is not just what you say, but how you say it. We need to be thinking about our body and our voices when we communicate. So it's not just feeling comfortable and confident speaking in the moment, it is appearing comfortable and confident. So let me share just a couple bits of advice about what we can do with our body and our voices. Mm-hmm. First and foremost, you want to be big. Many of us, when we get nervous or are feeling threatened, we make ourselves small. So the best thing you can do is take your shoulder blades and just pull them down. Make yourself broad. I'm not pushing my elbows back. I'm not puffing my chest out. I just pull my shoulder blades down and I make myself look bigger. You look more confident. You want to hold your head straight and not tilted. I'm not saying be stiff and rigid, just make yourself big. When you speak, vary your voice. If I were to have spoken like this for this entire interview, people would have left a long time ago.

Our brains are wired for novelty, things that change. So add emotive words. If you are somebody who doesn't have a lot of variation, add adjectives and adverbs. So I would never say, I'm really excited to be here. No, I'd say, I'm really excited. So emphasize those words. So the one thing we didn't talk about is how you say what you say, and we need to remember that. And the single easiest way to work on this is to record yourself, either through voice memo or through video. Uh, it really easy to do that these days and watch. It's painful to watch yourself, but when you do, you'll see these things that work for you and things that you might want to change. All of my MBA students I teach, whenever they do a presentation, I make them watch themselves without listening to it, and then I make them listen to themselves without watching it, and then do both together. And while they hate it, they love it because they learn so much and they actually are able to change.

Got it. Yeah, that'd be really painful. Like for instance, like when I, when I listen back to my interviews, I'm like, ah, I hate this.

I can't listen to it. Yeah, it is tough.

But you have to do it. You have to do it to improve.

It, it's, it's the burden of being a podcaster. You have to listen and watch, but But, uh, my hunch is, Holly, you've probably changed some of your communication based on what you've seen.

Of course. Of course.

Yeah. Yeah.

So Matt, this has been such an incredible discussion. Like I mentioned, I'm so excited to just like go back to your book and study it tooth and nail. It's called Think Faster, Talk Smarter. I always end my show, uh, with two questions that I ask all of my guests. So the first one is, what is one actionable thing my young improfiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

Focus on your communication. At the end of every day, take 30 seconds to think about what is something that went well in my communication today and what is something I'd like to improve. By simply taking time to catalog what works for you and really lean into that and take the, the things that challenge you and start fixing that, working on it, can help. Every day I do this, and on the weekends I go back and look at everything, and then I set a plan for myself. So I am constantly working and honing on my communication. And it will help you be more profitable. It'll help you connect better with people and ultimately help you feel better about the relationships you have. Hmm.

And what is your secret to profiting in life? And this can go beyond financial and business.

Being open to opportunity. Uh, I rarely say no. I, I say yes to many opportunities and my life has unfolded really pleasantly and, and in great ways simply because because, uh, it, many people's natural response is to say no, to be protective. And I like to approach things by, with curiosity and, and openness. So I encourage everybody, uh, to do that. It has been my superpower where I've looked for opportunity and really driven towards it. Hmm.

And where can everybody learn more about you? Tell us about your podcast and everything like that.

Oh, thank you for the opportunity. Uh, this has been fantastic. So the podcast is called Think Fast, Talk Smart. It is 20-minute episodes about communication, all aspects of it. Uh, we've been around for almost 5 years, lots of episodes. Check us out at faster-smarter.io, where everywhere you get your podcasts, and you including YouTube. Uh, check out the book Think Faster, Talk Smarter. You can get it wherever you get your books. Really trying to help people hone and develop their communication and improve their careers.

Amazing, Matt. I had such a fun time in this conversation. I personally learned so much. I feel like you're going to impact me for many years to come just with this conversation. So thank you for your time today.

Hala, thank you. This was a true delight. You are a master at what you do.