Transcript of Dr. Michael Gervais: Master Your Mindset to Dominate in Business and Life | Human Behavior | YAPClassic

Hello, young and profitors. Most people never reach their full potential, not because they lack talent, but because they're trapped by the fear of other people's opinions. This silent mindset known as FOPO keeps us playing small, seeking approval, and living life on everybody else's terms instead of our own. In this YAP Classic episode, I sat down with Michael Gervais, one of the world's top performance psychologist. He has coached Olympians, Fortune 100 CEOs, and elite performers under extreme pressure, and he knows exactly what holds people back at the highest levels. Michael breaks down why we're biologically wired to crave approval, how that instinct pulls us away from who we really are, and how shifting from external validation to internal purpose changes everything. I absolutely cannot wait for you guys to hear this one. Here's my conversation with Dr. Michael Gervais. I was learning a bit about your story, and I found out that you first got interested in the power of the mind when you were a teenage surfer. Can you tell us about those early days surfing and what you learned about high performance and the mind during those experiences?

There's two types of surfing. There's competitive surfing and then what's called hard core or core surfing. I mean, core surfing is exactly what it sounds like. You put yourself in a consequential condition and you don't talk about it. You do it for the purity of the experience. It's not cool to brag, to boast, to ask questions, Did you see what I did. You just do it for the joy of it, for the knowing that you have what it takes to be in that consequential environment. Then there's a completely different culture, which is competitive surfing. In that culture, you've got people on the beach that are watching and judging, and there's friends and family and experts that are giving you a score on your wave. I could do the thing in core surfing. I was able to do it when I had my little cocoon and it was just me in the wave, and I was able to put myself in harm's way and navigate it. Now, as soon as there was people on the beach, I was a disaster. I didn't understand it. I was a 15-year-old kid until one day it was perfect conditions.

It was about six-foot waves, seven o'clock in the morning. It was a competition day, nice and glassy conditions. There's only three people out in the water. One of the gentlemen paddles by me and he says, Jervais, I've been surfing with you a bunch. You got to stop worrying about what all of the things that are going on in your head, you got to stop worrying about all the things that could go wrong. I thought to myself, as a 15-year-old kid, I was like, How does he know? How does he know I can't feel my surfboard? I'm completely discombobulated from my body. My mind feels like it's racing at the same time. There's a numbness and a fogginess that's going on. How did he know? So he paddles off like a good competitor, and I'm left with myself saying, Oh, my God, look, what do I do then? What do I do if the idea is to not pay attention to all the things that could go wrong? So I just flipped it around and I said, Well, let me start thinking about what could go right. It sounds so simple, but as a 15-year-old mind, sometimes that's the benefit of having a young mind.

All of a sudden, before I knew it, I was back in a vibe. I was back in my body. I was back connected. It was the only thing that changed. It wasn't the physical conditions. It wasn't my physical body. It wasn't my technical skills. The only thing that changed was the direction of my mind. I thought, What just happened? Come to find out, there's a whole discipline, a science of psychology that supports how to use your mind.

That's my next question is, then how did you then evolve to make this your career? What were the things that you did and the steps that you took to then become a high performance sport coach when you're one of the most famous ones in the world?

Oh, thank you for that, Hala. It was organic. I wish I could just say that that lightning bulb moment fundamentally changed me. It was the beginnings of saying, wow, there's this thing called the mind, and I can get better at it maybe if I could have some better techniques and whatever. And so I barely got out of high school. I surfed more than I went to class. There's hope. There's hope for people. Okay. My parents had all but given up. They did not know what to do with me. I got to community college because I got a zero on my SAT. I say that with a little bit of a grin because I went surfing. It's also an indicator that I just didn't understand how to fit in the school system, which I think, looking back, was a really good thing. I'm in a community college, and there's three professors who happen to be best friends, Dr. Cuzio, Dr. Zanca, and Dr. Perkins. One was a philosopher One was a theologian and one was a psychologist. Looking back, they saw this young kid that was full of zest and fire and had no clue, no clue about the interior invisible world, was primarily interested in results and getting after it and lost in life, if you will.

They wrapped their arms around me and they said, Hey, kid, we want to show you how the deeper part of life works. I was like, All right. Come to I loved every bit of it. It started me down the path. I got an undergraduate degree in psychology, master's degree in sports science, back to psychology with a PhD, license as a psychologist, and then a specialization in sport and performance, and a subspecialty in high stakes environments. That's what I've been doing for the last 25 years.

I think that's so inspiring, and I think it's super important for our listeners to hear that you can go from not being that great in school to then loving it. If you love the topic and you absorb yourself in it. For example, for me, I dropped out of school, college for three years to intern at a radio station. Look at me now, podcast princess. There you go. And then I went back to school and got my MBA and all those things. But I wasn't mature enough to do college when I was 18, 19 years old. I was failing out of school, like you were saying. So inspiring story on your part. So I heard you say in the past that elite levels of sports, when you're an elite athlete, it's really not about the skills. The game is played above the shoulders is what you've said. So what do you mean by that exactly?

Well, in elite sport, where, let's call it any professional league, is that 90% of people that are in the building have all of the physical and technical skills. It's a prerequisite. You have to have physical and technical skills to even have a chance in elite sport. But the difference maker in elite sport is not the physical and technical because they all have it, like I said. It is the mental part of the game, if you will. Quite simply, that is knowing how to deal with high stress, high-pressured environments, knowing how to be at home with yourself independent of the external conditions. The idea of being at home with yourself wherever you are is an ancient wisdom that has never been more true. It also holds up in high stakes, high pressure environments of sport, military, and other environments that require you to meet the moment.

Talk to us about how you actually work with athletes. You've been described as a race car mechanic who tweaks high performance machines. How would you describe it in your own words?

That's a funny description. The challenge of psychology is that it's completely invisible, just like gravity. We know gravity exists. We can see the artifact of gravity. We can see the leave behind, if you will, of gravity. When you drop something, it falls. We understand it inherently. The same is true for psychology. Even though we can't see it, we know it exists, but we can see the leave behind. We can see the emotions. We can see the behaviors that are downstream from psychology. How I spend time with athletes is first to understand who they are, what drives them, what are their fears, what are their ambitions, what are the scar tissues that they have and the traumas that are shaping the way that they're thinking. We want to understand both the hard the prickly parts, the difficult parts of their mind, as well as the ambitious, beautiful, bold, get-after parts of their mind. Working to understand the completeness of the person, and then in a parallel process, is finding the right simple set of practices for them to be able to train their mind. Just as a thought, humans are the most complex organisms on the planet.

The practices of sport and performance psychology are simple. I'm happy to share as many of them in our time as we can. But they're very simple practices. But what's complicated is matching the complexity of a human, the uniqueness of a human, with a simple practice. That's not as simple as it might sound. It's actually quite complicated. If I were to suggest to you that imagery is a good practice, mental imagery, seeing success ahead of time, you say, Yeah, of course. But there's all different types of ways to do that uniquely fit you. Same with breathing. We know that breathing practices are very powerful, but you have a unique body structure and a unique set of skills when it comes to the types of exhales required to calm down or to hype up or whatever it might be. I can go through as many skills as you would want. However, I just want to hold the pause button that it's not like there's a one-size-fits-all for people. At the essence, we are so uniquely ourselves that finding a practice that can be customized for us is really important.

So interesting. To your point, there's no one-size-fits-all solution, especially when you're at that elite performance level. So maybe Can you talk to us about what's the difference between coaching a high performer and a low performer?

Most of it has to do with the talent they've already acquired, their technical and physical skills, if you will. A high performer means that they're able to do something in an extraordinary way consistently. What many of them are looking for in a sports psychology framework is, I want to be even more consistent than I am now. Like an 80/20 rule, they're trying to maximize the 20% of their time to oversimplify it. When we're speaking and working with a low performer versus a high performer, I think the way you ask that question is in the elite level, like a low performer in the elite level, or are you asking for somebody who's just getting started on a path?

Exactly. The difference between helping somebody who's just getting started versus somebody who's an expert level trying to get to even the next expert level.

Yeah, it's so much easier to work with somebody that's just getting started. I wish that if I could have some magic wand, all of the basic skills of sports psychology would be taught early in life. It would fundamentally change how people live their lives because we are not taught how to speak well to ourselves. We are not taught how to breathe properly. We're not taught how to use mental imagery. We're not taught mindfulness. Well, it's starting to happen earlier. But there's so many best practices that are not taught early. It's no wonder that the majority of us in our adult lives are really feeling the stress of modern life because we are unequipped to deal with the speed and the rapid change that's taking place. How would I start with a low I would, again, reframe that as somebody who's early on their path, is I'd say, Look, let's get some basic skills in place. Let's make sure that you understand how uniquely your mind works and how to optimize that in a simple way to think about it is you are your best coach. Sometimes you are your worst coach. And so understanding how to speak to yourself, to back yourself, to build yourself, to be your best friend, best coach.

And that takes practice and time.

Now, I understand that it's not one size fits all, but not everybody is going to be able to work personally with you, right? And also, the audience that's listening right now, they're mostly entrepreneurs professionals. I do know that you also coach professionals and organizations like Fortune 500 organizations. I'd love to understand what are some common challenges that elite athletes and also high-performing business professionals face, and what's some guidance that you can give us, like general guidance in terms of to handle situations.

Well, let's make it really simple here is that let's speak to entrepreneurs and executives, directors and managers included. Ten years ago, I was working in an elite sport on a regular basis, and Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, asked for some time to understand how I was helping the Seattle Seahawks and Coach Carroll build a culture that is a winning culture and also is incredibly vibrant. It's turned into a 10-year relationship with Microsoft, helping train probably somewhere around 100,000 of their employees at about 12 to 14 hours a person. Satya and his team built a culture around growth mindset. If you want to have a growth mindset, which we all know what that is, open to learning, if you want to have a growth mindset when there's stress in the system, which any environment that is really trying to do something special has stress in the system. If you want to do that, then you must train your mind. How do you train your mind to raise your question, is what we found, first and foremost, is that recovery, even though it doesn't sound like this is mental skills training, is nearly nonexistent in the executive world.

In the elite sport world, we do not talk about working harder. Everybody is working really hard. Why is that? Because it is a one-to-one measure for input to output. When you get your inputs right, your outputs are noticed, they're recognized. There's a lot of money on the table. There's a lot of attention that is given when you make mistakes or you do well. And there is a purpose to be part of something bigger than yourselves when they do it right. So then when we go over to the business world, purpose is unclear. There is a demand to work harder and longer than we've ever worked before. We're now working two shifts, the email shift at the end of the night. And the meeting shift is early in the day. And then there's family dinner, running the kids around, if you will, at 6: 00. Then the email shift is just really crushing people. We just start with recovery. It sounds something as simple that probably our grandparents would have taught us, but we need to get the right amount of sleep for our bodies in place. Here's the general. 97% of brains, three standard deviations from the average, require between seven and nine hours of sleep.

Some people say, Well, I'm different. I only need six and a half. Well, the research would mean that you're in the 2% of brains or one and a half % of brains that need less than seven hours of sleep. Most people, for good reasons, need that recovery process. As simple as optimizing your sleep might give you exactly what you need from a psychological perspective. Because when we are fatigued and tired, and by the way, five days at five hours of sleep, most people can't pass a vigilance drunk driving test. What our brain does is when it's fatigued and tired, it just pulls down the acuteness and the vibrance and the zest of high attention. It just starts to pull everything down in a way because the brain says, I get the gig here. I am going to pull back the resources from being fully vibrant. But it's barely detectable. We don't realize just how slow we are with poor sleep. I would start there. Super simple. Throw a horseshoe, and between seven and nine, you to target around eight hours for most people.

Yeah. Sleep is so important, also impacts your mood. I find that if I don't get sleep, I am so cranky and not as happy. So sleep to me is so important. I need more of it for sure. So I thought we could move into some fun examples of some of your clients that you've worked with. You've got a client, Felix Baumgartner, and you helped him make the highest ever freefall back in 2010. Can you tell us that story?

So he jumped from the edge of space. It was a project called Red Bull Stratos, and he wanted to jump from 130,000 feet. If he were to do that, he would pass through the speed of sound. The speed of sound, mock one, if you will. The brightest minds in aerospace were not sure if his head and torso were doing the speed of sound, if his arms and legs would have a drag on it. If so, it would be what's called a transonic experience. They weren't sure if his arms and legs would rip off or not. He still wanted to do it. This is what the great intrepid pioneers of our time do, is they push to the edges of the boundaries because they have an idea. They've used their imagination to see a compelling future. They mobilize their internal resources, their psychological skills. They mobilize their external resources, people and money and creativity of others. They mobilize all that to create that compelling future. That's exactly how entrepreneurs that are successful do it. That's how business leaders do it. It's how parents with children do it. It's hopefully how you and I do it as well as we use our imagination to create a compelling future, then we mobilize our resources against it.

It was four years into the project, and this is all public, so I'm not saying something as a psychologist out of turn here. He calls the team, which I was not part of yet. He says, I'm embarrassed. I'm in the airport, I'm crying, and I can't do it. I'm so sorry, but I'm terrified of this project. That's when I get called in to help work with the minds of people that are the most skilled on the planet, have amazing imagination, have created a team that is world-class to be able to help them solve whatever the roadblock is. Come to find out that good old psychology, it's called systematic desensitization, was That was something I used to help him work through his fear. He did great work, and it was a success.

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And then also with visioning, you mentioned that there's different ways that people vision or should align to visioning. Can you talk to us about that as well?

Yeah, for sure. Let's start with breathing. There's hundreds of different breathing protocols and types and recommendations that people have studied. I'd like to oversimplify it for our conversation and just say there's three basic types. There would be some cadence breathing. People call it box breathing. There is downregulation breathing, which is relaxation breathing to help you relax. Then there's breathing to help you build capacity. This is one that is under I've talked about, but incredibly powerful. Box breathing is exactly what you know it to be. There's four parts to every breath, and you pick the length of each segment, like four seconds in, four second pause, four second exhale, four second pause. Maybe the segments are five seconds or six seconds. It depends on your unique physiology, your breathing capacity. Really what that does is it helps mostly with focus, and there's a little bit of downregulation that happens, a little bit of relaxation that can It's going to happen from that as well. But it's primarily a focus training. It's a regulation, if you will, there. It's awesome for so many reasons. The downregulation breathing for relaxation primarily is when your exhale is double the length of your inhale.

If your inhale is, let's call it 5 seconds, your exhale would be 10 seconds. Somewhere around 12 of those in a row is when we start to activate our parasympathetic nervous system. Our rest and digest system. Our system that says, Hey, listen, there's no wilder beast, there's no saber tooth in the brush. We're okay. We can be right here, right now. Start that relaxation process. That's downregulation. Then building capacity breathing is the type of breathing cadence to help you understand an anxiousness that comes with being at the edge of your breathing capacity. What does that mean? That means that at some point When you starve your brain and body for oxygen, your body begins to say, Oh, no, I think I'm in trouble. This doesn't feel right. There's an anxiousness that comes with that type of breathing. It's in those moments that you say, Okay, let me relax a little bit. Let me keep it going. You learn how to speak to yourself about moving forward. You also learn how to say, This is enough. I've had it. I'm out of here. That breathing cadence looks something like, and it's unique for everybody, let's call it eight in, eight paws at the top, 16 out, 8 pause at the bottom.

Maybe it's 7, 7, 14, 7. Maybe it's 6, 6, 12, 6. Maybe it's 8, 8, 16, 8. Then if you do that about 10 times in a row, somewhere around breath six, seven or eight, your brain says, What are you doing to me? I don't have enough oxygen. This doesn't feel right. Get out of this type of breathing. That's the moment that you say, Oh, let me relax Relax my shoulders, relax my glutes, relax my hamstrings, relax my hands. Breathe. You got this. No problem. Take your time, you're okay. Where you start to back yourself psychologically, physiologically, you relax yourself. When you do that, you end up becoming not only more efficient in the way you use oxygen over time, but you also learn how to speak to yourself in incredibly powerful ways. Those are the three basic types, and there's different reasons to try different ones.

Amazing. Then in terms of visioning, what are the different ways that you recommend that people vision things, or why is it different for people?

The word I use is imagery. The word that most of the field uses is the word you used, which is visualization. But the reason I use the word imagery is because really what we want to do is create as lifelike of an image as we possibly can. We're using all of our senses, not just vision. The visual sensation. The way that this works is, and there's ample research around this, it's quite incredible. It helps with confidence, it helps with self-taught, it helps with neurological firing of behavior patterns, meaning it's code or it helps you be better at something that you want to do later. It helps provide psychological safety because you're imagining a future state and seeing yourself do well in it, and, and, and, and. Really what that is, is using Using your imagination, most people close their eyes, you don't have to, but you use your imagination to see yourself being great in the future. You want to use all five senses. When you use all five senses, you're trying to see it and feel it and hear it, smell it, what it tastes like or touch, what that's like. It's as if it's so lifelike that you're actually experiencing it.

Your brain, our brains, have a hard time distinguishing if it's that vivid of an imagination, if it's real, or if it's in our imagination. So it defaults that it could be real. And it starts to lay familiarity with excellence. It starts to lay, or whatever you're seeing, it starts to lay and groove tracks at a neurological level around it. And so it's really cool. It's very powerful. It's something that I think most of us can relate to in a... I'll use this in a nontraditional way, is that if If you close your eyes and imagine the sexiest human you can imagine, and complete provocateur imagination here, your body, if the image is lifelike and it's sensual and it's amazing, your body will likely respond to that. That type of experiment, most of us know. Now, we're using that same type of experiment for performance excellence. Then I'll add one more detail, nuance here is that I think This is not research-based, but I think 85%, 15% is a healthy ratio. Eighty-five % of the time, you're seeing a compelling future that is you being successful in it. When I say seeing, I should strike that.

You're imagining where you're successful in it. Then 15% of the time, you're putting yourself in a very compromised situation, in a situation where it could go wrong, where there's a trapped door in the future experience where it feels like you're just gliding out of control. Putting yourself in that situation and then seeing yourself figured out from that is also incredibly powerful and rewarding. So 85-15 is the ratio that I ask most of the athletes who are performers that I work with to do.

When you say 85, 15, what do you mean by that exactly? Sorry.

So the 85% of the time is seeing and feeling success as if it's easy, and then 15% of the time is putting yourself in a compromised situation and working out success from that compromised situation.

Oh, I love that advice. Cool. Well, this reminds me of I do a lot of speaking and presentations, and I find that for me to do my best job, a lot of the times I'll be dreaming about having this presentation. I'll actually get very little sleep the night before because I'll just be dreaming, this is exactly what I'm going to say, this is exactly how I'm going to move, this is exactly what I'm going to do. I end up being very tired the next day, but knowing exactly what to do, and I end up rocking whatever I have to do because I've practiced it all night. That sounds very similar, but I should probably find the time to meditate and do that beforehand so that I don't end up getting insomnia the night before or something like that.

Yeah, your first insight is totally on it, is that you know that it works. You know that when you can rehearse in your mind, that you're able to be more familiar with it later. Awesome. You don't want to wait and cram for a final exam. That's what you're suggesting your practice is, is that you're cramming. If you could build that into a daily rhythm, if you could build that into a daily practice and not just wait for the big moment where you're going to do mental imagery, you'll be far better at it, exponentially better. Then I'll just thin slice something I heard as you talked about doing meditation. Meditation and imagery oftentimes are collapsed on each other, but they are different practices. Meditation in of itself is more about awareness, and it is more about working to get to the truth of something. Imagery is about seeing a compelling future. When you're in a meditative state, you certainly can slide into mental imagery or rehearsal. But meditation, really, from an ancient wisdom perspective, usually has a bit of a different base on the purpose.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to ask you about is, how do we How would you actually bake this into our routine, this imagery practice?

I would start with something small. Start with three minutes, work your way up to eight minutes. Then if you really are finding value in it, keep it going. On a regular basis, for me, when I've got something that I'm really working towards and it's very crisp and clear, it's about 15 to 20 minutes a day. It's helped me exponentially. It's helped work class athletes exponentially. Then What I do on a regular basis when I don't have something that is electric and charging, call it public speaking or whatever it might be, is that it's more like 90 seconds a day. It's finding something. I can send your listeners something if They would like an audio of what I would call my morning mindset routine. It's four steps to do in the morning, and I can give them to you here. This is where I get my imagery in. Before I pull my sheets off, there's just a handful of things I do. It takes about 90 seconds. World class athletes have been doing this with me for 20 years now. The first is one deep breath. That's it. One inhale and one long exhale. Before you check your phone and all that stuff that everyone knows is not optimized, one deep breath.

It wakes It's one part of your brain that says, Hey, you're in control and you're safe. You're okay. It's one deep breath. If you want to do two, three, four, five, awesome. But I'm just saying do at least one. The next step is at least one thought of gratitude. Now, the gratitude wakes up a different part of your brain, circuitry. This is not a check the box, like I'm grateful that I have my heart, or I'm grateful that I have my wife. It's not a check the box. It's hit on one and completely be embodied with it, really feel it. Then the third is one intention. Then the intention is really using your imagination to see yourself being great later in the afternoon, later in the day. What is your intention for the today? Today, my intention was roots and reach. To be grounded and be able to share ideas with your community is the reach part. I just had a quick hit of feeling how I wanted to be in this conversation with you. It only lasts 10, 15 seconds. No problem. That's it. Then the fourth thing is take your sheets off and just take a moment and be where your body is.

Just practice being fully present. It's those four steps that I think are foundational to waking up very specific parts the brain circuitry that I want to be more active throughout my day.

Oh, my gosh. I love that so much. I'm practicing this whole new morning routine, so I'm definitely going to start implementing those four steps in the morning. No fun. Okay, so let's move on to your new book. You've got a book called The First Rule of Mastery, your most recent book. Can you talk to us about the genesis of why you decided to put out this book?

If I were to say the first rule of mastery for health or the first rule of health is to stop drinking poison every day, you'd say, Yeah, okay, that makes sense. The first rule of mastery is to stop worrying about what people think of you. That's the external noise that corrupts the internal signal. I'm not saying don't care about what other people think, but I'm pointing to the excessive worry that happens for the majority of us. How did it start? I was 15 years old, back to this age in my life that was really important for me. I just got my permit to drive, and I'm driving, and I had saved up for my new car, and there was somebody that was passing me in the same direction, and I thought, I'm going to look cool. I saved up for this car. I sat up, I grabbed the steering wheel in a way that was like the cool kid lean. I tried to catch the eye of the person as they were passing to see if they thought I was cool. They never looked. They never looked in. It's the most dangerous driver in the planet, but they never looked in.

I thought to myself in that moment, What am I doing? What is all this activity, psychological and physical, that I'm doing to look a certain way to somebody that I've never... What am I doing? I was so embarrassed by it. I never spoke it out loud. But I knew that I was a bit of a fraud. There was a phoniness to me. I was pretending or trying to look a certain way for approval. I kept it quiet. I knew that that was not the right way to do it, but I didn't really have a better way to do because there was no book on it, there was no course on it. There was nothing about it. Eventually, as I started working with elite athletes, I heard the same thing in them. I heard, I don't want to let people down. I don't want to look stupid. I don't want to blow my opportunity. There's this thing that kept emerging, which is the first rule is to be true to yourself. The first rule is to work from the inside out. As a young driver, I was working from the outside in. I was wanting people to see me a certain way, so I was changing the way that I presented.

The first rule is to work from the inside out. Come to find out, I wrote an article for HBR on this topic. I called, just for fun, I called it FOPO, fear of People's Opinions. I called it the greatest constricter of human potential is the fear that we have of other people. That's why public speaking is so terrifying. There's nothing dangerous about public speaking other than what's behind the eyeballs of people in the It's just their opinion, just their thoughts. I wrote an article, and 12 months later, they called and they said, Listen, you were the number one downloaded article 12 months in a row. You really touched a nerve. Let's write a book about it. I said, Okay, cool. As I wrote the book, I come to find out our brain is intimately connected to needing and wanting and craving the approval of other people. The approval from others means that we're safe. At the center of a community, we're not going to get plucked off from the warring tribe. The sheep that's at the middle of the herd doesn't get plucked off either. There's something about safety and belonging. Come to find out that we are exceptionally skilled at just listening for and scanning and searching for even the slightest hint of rejection.

Because if you and I, 200,000 years ago, were in the tribe, Paula, and you and I were supposed to go do for the tribe. We came back and we didn't have the right result. We took it laissez-faire, and we just didn't do a good enough job. Maybe some kids went hungry, or maybe there was some rationing that needed to happen across the tribe because you and I didn't do a good enough job. They might give us a pass, they might give us a second pass, but at some point on the third pass, they're going to say, Hala, Mike, listen, you don't fit here anymore. We don't trust you. You two, you got to go. You're out. That meant certain death, because the wild is just too wild for two people to figure it out on their own. We need each other. We need the tribe. We are social beings. We masquerade like we're these individual selves, but we are more like a coral reef than we are like individuals just trying to figure it out on our own. 200,000 years to today, we are exceptionally skilled at picking up just the slightest hint of rejection.

That's what Fopo is. It's this anticipation. Are they going to think less of me? What should I wear? How should I sit? What should I say? Am I going to be okay? Do I laugh at the jokes? Do I not laugh at the jokes that are slightly offensive? There's this anticipation phase. Then when you're actually in the environment, there's a checking phase. I'm no longer tuning to the task at hand, but I'm looking to you to see if I'm okay. I'm outsourcing my self-worth. I'm outsourcing I'm outsourcing my self-confidence. I'm outsourcing to your approval, and I don't know what you're thinking. Now I'm playing a game to get favor from you. That is the corrupt. That is the corruption to authenticity. That is now we're in the throes of the constricter of potential. An example of this FOPO experience is like checking your phone so that you appear to be busy or in demand. It's laughing at a joke that you don't find funny so that you look like you're part of the in-tribe. It's staying late at a job because you know that your boss values that, but your job is actually done. It's pretending to know a song or a movie that everyone is talking about because you don't want to be the weird one.

It shows up in lines at coffee outlets where you're nervous about getting your order out in time because you got 10 people behind you that are a little agitated. It's all of these weird ways that it shows up in modern times. That's FOPO. Then the last thing that takes place in FOPO is that the way we respond is that we conform to the approval. We will contort our basic principles. Sometimes we will confront another person just to see if we're okay in their eyes. The net-net is that there's all of this underpinning activity that takes place just to see if I'm okay. That's exhausting. It's expensive to run the organism that's trying to be okay rather than to be oneself. It's incredibly problematic for people to live what I would consider the good life.

This resonates very heavily, probably with everybody who's tuning in right now, because we all feel it. In today's world, we probably feel it even more than our ancestors did because we've got social media and all this comparison and everything's just so transparent now where we can see how other people are doing very transparently. I imagine that it's getting worse and worse. Can you talk to us about how giving in to FOPO actually hurts us from progressing towards our goals and can hurt us?

Well, if FOPO is an unproductive obsession with what other people think of us, if we don't do something to work with it, what ends up taking place is we live life on other people's terms. We live life according to what the tribe wants rather than what is good for ourselves. There is a harmony between being connected socially and being oneself authentically. There's a harmony between those two. If we're over indexing on just being approved by other people, we miss the opportunity to live life according to our unique experiences in life. What ends up taking place is that we play it safe and we play it small, and we never truly know what we are capable of. If you're listening and you're like, Do I have FOPO? I think I do. I'm not sure. We built an assessment for fun, and we found three different types of people that have FOPO. You can find that on our website, which was findingmastery. Com/assessment. It's on our website. I think for the most part, the only people that don't have FOPO are sociopaths, narcissists, and the truly enlightened. Everybody else is at some level struggling with it. I mean, welcome to the club.

This is something that is not unique to just you.

A great example you share in the book is Beethoven, how he got over his faux pas. Can you share that story with us?

Beethoven, one of the greatest of all time, come to find out he, too, had an obsession about what people thought of him, so much so that he ended up having to leave and go away from the city life. He held himself up in a private little cabin in the woods where he was terrified. He was terrified that people were going to find out that he was losing his hearing. What's really interesting is that... He's one of the best in the world at this time. He couldn't hear. He was so terrified that somebody as pitch-perfect as he was was losing his hearing, what they would think and surely it was going to ruin his career. What he did, this is so clever, and I think it's so common amongst so many of us, is that he was pretending, even though he couldn't hear somebody, he was pretending as if he was in an aloof creative space. When somebody would say, Beethoven, can't you hear me? He'd say, because he really couldn't. He'd say, Oh, I'm sorry, I was in my raptus. I was in my creative world. So sorry. Yes, mere mortal. What was it that you were saying?

So he was creating a persona or an alternative excuse for something that was honestly taking place for him because he was afraid of what they would think of him. So he goes away for a handful of years, and when he finally says to himself, I can't do it like this anymore. I cannot live, hold up, and afraid of what other people think. I'm not quoting him exactly because there was no term called Fopo at the time, but I can't do this anymore. I need to keep creating my music. So he started to tune to his music inside rather than the music and the approval of other people. It said that we all know Beethoven' Fifth, that that came from him being frustrated, pounding his piano because he can't hear it. It was like a bang, bang, bang, bang. Then from that, he said, Wait a minute, what was that? He extended it, bum, bum, bum, bum. He ended up creating some of his most beautiful, memorialized work ever, Beethoven Symphony number 5 and 9, while he was held up in his cabin, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Just awesome. I see myself not as the genius of Beethoven, but needing to create a secondary narrative that, No, I'm actually okay.

I was just doing something different. So sorry. When actually I was struggling inside in some way. I recognize it in elite athletes, elite executives, and my friends as well.

Great example. Something that you mentioned before was that we can tort ourselves because of FOPO. Can you talk to us about some of the ways that we can tort ourselves and why that's not a great thing to do?

It's an abandonment of our first principles, is when we're laughing or nodding or not speaking up to something that is offensive or degrading to self or others, and we abandon our first principles for the approval, for the acceptance, for the safety of being included by somebody else. It happens in subtle ways, and it happens in pretty radical ways. All of the world's greats. I'd be hard-pressed to find one of the world's greats that didn't wrestle with this, Andy, Mandela, Mother Teresa, Dr. King Jr. The list goes on and on and on, where they felt something and they didn't like how that felt, so they spoke against it. The greats understand this tension. They, too, found it challenging to speak up, and they risked their lives for it. It changed their livelihood. It changed the way that they lived by speaking truth to power. All of the world greats, all of our heroes in life did what we consider to be the rare and extraordinary approach is speaking truth to power rather than swallowing our words. We can practice that in small ways at holiday parties or in hallways inside of our offices is instead of maybe seeing it truth to power, just speaking truth.

If you can just speak your truth and you can do it gracefully and you can do it with kindness, people pay attention. It's not much about their changing of behavior because we can't change them. We can't change how their thoughts work or how their behaviors are going to go. But you're honoring your first principles and you're no longer contorting for approval or acceptance or safety, but you are honoring your first principles. There's one more piece here that we highlight in the book, which is how to move from a performance-based identity to a purpose-based identity. All the greats that we just talked about and the ones that come to your imagination were purpose-based. That's available to all of us. We live in a culture, Hala, that is obsessed with performance. I live in the world of high performance, meaning that if I don't help the best in the world be better in business and/or sport, that I'm asked to stay at home. Please don't come again. You're not invited on the next whatever. It's a requisite to help people in my industry be their very best. However, In this performance-obsessed culture that we live in, doesn't it make sense that by default, we would develop a performance-based identity?

That is quite simply, I am not who I am, not what I stand for, but I am what I do relative to how well you do it. I'm okay when I'm just a little bit better or just slightly not as good as you, but I'm in the ballpark. That's the majority of people. Then the crazy performers are the ones that have to be the best in the world. That's still a performance-based identity. A performance-based identity is an obsession with how good or how well I do something. That could get you on the world stage. That could help you have a gold medal around your neck, a billion dollars in the bank account. However, there comes a point in time when the cost of a performance-based identity to living the good life is pretty high. The purpose-based, the The navigation from performance-based to purpose-based identity is a road that has not traveled enough and is incredibly rewarding. Those are the people that I've studied to understand how they've done it, and it's remarkable. It's available for all of us. Have you done the work? Holly, it feels like you probably have, but have you done the work to be clear about your purpose?

I'm pretty clear about my purpose. I've interviewed a lot of people about this topic, and I'm pretty good at visioning and manifesting, and I'm pretty clear about my purpose, but I don't think I've probably not done enough.

I think there's always- Not as clear as like Nelson Mandela or not as clear as Mother Teresa, right?

Yeah.

That would be cool if you spent some time and then flip it over to me. I'm happy to go back and forth with you about how to clarify it in a way that feels organically honest to you. When you do that, it ends up being the greatest bellwether. I don't want to be too esoteric. The greatest factor to be able to shape your thoughts, your words, and your actions to be fully aligned. Without purpose, it's just so easy to get pulled down into performance or pulled out into approval. And so, yeah, it's really good work.

Yeah. And Young Improfitors, there are so many gems in Michael's book, The First Rule of Mastery. I highly recommend that everybody go out and get that. Michael, we end our show with two last questions that we ask all of our guests. What is one actionable thing our Young Improfitors can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

Very cool. I love the idea of thinking about the types of riches that you inhabit. And so So the profit of living the good life, of having joy and happiness, and that type of being profitable and being generative to your community and giving to other people. Bob Marley had it right when he was like, Those are the riches that I want. And so what is a simple practice? The morning mindset routine is quite simple. It's a 90-second practice that happens before you get out of bed every morning. I think that I would start there and make it incredibly simple to do.

I'm going to recap that in the outro, guys, because I'm going to be doing that as well. The last question is, what is your secret to profiting in life? Now, this can be more broad and profiting in all aspects of life.

Well, I'll keep it consistent with our conversation today. On the Finding Mastery podcast, I had Michael Phelps' coach, and I asked him a very similar question. Michael Phelps is one of the greatest Olympians of all time. He talked about the power that Michael committed to of using his imagination to see a compelling future for himself. He was incredibly disciplined in the pool, according to his coach, and incredibly disciplined outside of the pool on dry land, as they call it. It's this discipline to have a compelling future, to use your imagination on a regular basis, to see yourself yourself being your very best, and to have the discipline. That's part one of discipline is imagination. Then part two of discipline is being disciplined with the way you speak to yourself, to back yourself, to choose the highest available way to coach yourself, to help yourself through it in a way that if a nine-year-old girl or a 12-year-old boy were listening, that they go, Oh, that's how you successful people speak to yourself. Because most of us say when asked, Do you speak to yourself in a way that you would want your kids to know or your nieces and nephews to know?

And most of them say, Oh, God, no. No, I would not want them to know how I really speak to myself. So be the beacon for the next generation. The way to do that is to speak to yourself in a fully transparent way that if they were to know how you spoke, they'd be like, Oh, I get it. I want to do it that way, too, because they're looking to us. This next generation is going to need the best of us Because what we have worked through, we have screwed up in many ways. Generation X, we've screwed up in a lot of ways. Ai is fundamentally changing. It is the new industrial revolution. It is fundamentally changing the game. We're no longer going to need to know the answers to the test. We're going to need to know how to write the right questions. Hopefully, the power of AI is going to help the planet. It's going to help people's ability to unlock their potential for humans to flourish, and I would say to be profitable in any way that they deem to be important.

Oh, my gosh. So, so good. Just so you guys know, I'm interviewing so many AI experts lately, so you guys are going to hear all about it. Michael, this was such a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time. We learned so much about FOPO, about imagery, about so many different things, about how we can become better masters in everything that we do. So thank you so much for your time today.

Alaa, thank you for including me in your passion.