Transcript of Julia Gets Wise with Rita Moreno

Hi there. It's me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. We're back for season 3 of wiser than me. We're ready to bring you even more wisdom from the magnificent old women I have had the pleasure of talking to this season. And get a load of this.

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Lemonade.

Just a quick note before we begin. This episode contains discussion of sexual assault, and there is a brief conversation about suicide. If you or someone you know is in emotional distress or contemplating suicide, You can call or text 988 to access a trained crisis counselor Okay, so we got invited to a fancy friend's fancy apartment in New York for dinner The kind of thing I'm usually actually quite good at getting out of gracefully. But in this case, it actually did sound like a nice group. And I hadn't been around humans for a bit, you know, because I've been working and whatever, and so off we went.

And I got seated next to a gentleman whom I have met before, and I've never really cotton to, but what the heck? I mean, how bad can it be? Bad. Okay. So first of all, he starts to butt into conversations from all around the table.

The mansplaining gets going pretty fucking quickly, and we learn that, apparently, he's an expert in everything. And most of all, in making a lot of money, which is just so thrilling to hear about again from another Ivy League educated white guy who wouldn't know his own privilege if it ran him over, which it did several times. But did it stop him from bloviating? Oh, no. No.

It did not. And like I said, you know what? These were fancy friends, and they have a little balcony thing, so we're sitting outside. It was a lovely early fall evening. And as this guy is pontificating about his latest trip to Dubai and the rising value of something or other, and I'm just praying that dessert is coming so I can get the hell out of there, I started to notice this really weird smell.

Right? I mean, it's like this awful smell. It's very close by. And I'm trying to identify it, and then it hits me. Oh my god, it's dog shit This motherfucker is not just completely full of shit He has stepped in shit Okay?

Dog shit What a tremendous justice this was, but it was an awful stench. So dessert comes, and I hurry through it, and I make an excuse, and we hightail it out of there. And that dog crap smell follows us into the elevator where I'm telling my husband about how awful this guy was. And then the smell is with me straight out into the street, and it's still lingering as I'm, you know, dotting the i's and crossing the t's of my description of this, let's just say it, asshole. And it's not until we are literally stepping into the cab that I realize the dog shit is on my shoe.

Yeah. Here endeth the lesson. Judge not that you yourself be not judged and all of that. But my big takeaway was that when you step in dog crap, you really have to just throw away the shoes. And my other big takeaway is how much I enjoy talking here to the wonderful wise women on this show.

I mean, it's so refreshing and revitalizing for me, and I hope, dear listener, for you too. So thank God, thank God then, that today we get to talk to someone who is not full of shit, but is full of wit and grace and talent and wisdom, the incomparable Rita Moreno. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Some actors have a kind of motor, an energy in their performances from role to role that is kind of supernatural. You know what I'm talking about?

It's like an inner light that they bring to all their characters. They seem somehow to be totally alive, powerful, and impossibly vibrant. Our guest today is an actor like that. The first time I saw her, she was singing and dancing across the screen as Anita in West Side Story, a movie that came out the year I was born. The film was shot in English with heavy accents, and she was totally captivating to me From the bitter comedy of her killer dance number America to the unforgettably gorgeous harmony of I Have A Love.

Oh, god. I can't even think about it. It's so good. Knockout stuff. And, of course, she won an Oscar for it.

And if it was compelling to me when I saw it on TV in reruns in the seventies, imagine what it meant to Latino families across this country and its territories as they watched her in a Spanish dubbed version. For them, Rita Moreno wasn't just a star, she was their star, La Nuestra. Her extraordinary career on stage, in the movies, and on TV spanned 7 decades. She was the 1st Latina to win an Emmy. She has 2, actually.

A Grammy, an Oscar, and a Tony, the famous EGOT. At a time when Latin people were especially marginalized in Hollywood, Rita fought and continues to fight for roles that portray Latinas with dignity and depth. To put this into perspective, despite being the largest minority group in the US, Latinos still remain underrepresented in the media. Let that sink in for a second. If it's bad now, can you imagine the shit show it must have been like back then?

She has channeled that strength into becoming a trailblazer beyond showbiz too. She marched for civil rights alongside doctor Martin Luther King Junior, advocated for her friend Norman Lear's People For the American Way, a progressive advocacy organization, and has consistently worked to empower Puerto Ricans, urging them to vote and hold elected officials accountable. And that energy that I was talking about before, it's still there. The woman is a dynamo when she performs now. Amazing.

Whether you you know her from the Ritz on Broadway or West Side Story, The Electric Company. Hey, you guys. 80 for Brady or her scene stealing role in 1 day at a time. Rita has managed to keep the same irrepressible charisma she's had since starting Spanish dance lessons in the Bronx at the age of 6. There's even, by the way, a tribute Barbie doll of her in her Oscar dress.

I am so thrilled to welcome a real star, a mother, a grandmother of 2, a true force of nature, and someone who is miles and miles and miles wiser than me, the wonderful Rita Moreno. Welcome, Rita.

Wow. I want more money. I mean, if I'm that terrific, I really need to be paid for this. No. You really do.

That is such a good response to an intro. I want more money. Oh, Rita. Okay. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age, Rita?

Oh, for sure. Today's my birthday. Get the hell out.

December 11th. I am today officially 93.

Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear Rita. Happy birthday to you.

Man, Julia, that's the best. The best.

Let me ask you something about being 93. How old do you feel?

Oh, hell. I don't know. I don't I don't go by numbers, so I don't know. I feel like me, and and I'm let me just put it this way.

Yeah.

I am a jolly, energetic, joyous, emotional, I cry at the drop of a hat. Puerto Rican is what I am. That's what I am. So I don't know what it feels like to be me. This is what I am.

And what do you think is the best part about being your age here at 93 years old? God. That's

cool. I am so fucking smart.

Yeah. This is the vibe I'm getting from you. Smart.

I'm smart, but I'm a lot of things that I have come to admire, I guess, is the is the word. I have come to like myself more than I ever used to in the old bad old days Yeah. Like being a porter. See, I always thought of myself as a Puerto Rican.

Mhmm.

And that was maybe 1 of the greatest mistakes I ever made. So, that that stuff is gone and done. I am just so fucking happy to be here.

I heard you went on a 2 week vacation with your daughter. Yeah. Is that correct? And what was that like? Do you travel with your daughter a lot and talk about sort of when you go on vacation with your daughter, are you planning it?

Are you relaxing? Are you what what is it all about?

It started this way. I I was trying to think of a great birthday present about 4 years ago for her, and then I thought of something that we both absolutely adore. We're still easterners in many ways. And even though I was born in Puerto Rico, but I was raised in New York City. And, I said to her, how does this strike you?

We go to Boston, rent a car, and drive through all the New England states that we can and watch the leaves turn, which is my idea of pure heaven. We've I've always loved that. She's always loved that. And she said, really? I said, why not?

Why not? That's a present. And she said, oh my god. This is so I put her in charge, because she's the organized 1, in charge of finding someone who would book us in little hotels, sometimes motels, and and help us devise a map where we would get the most fun and the most, eyeballing, that we could. It turned out to be such a success.

We put on only Broadway musicals Oh. And sang the songs at the top of our lungs. Yes. We visited all the oh, god. I love New England.

Isn't it divine?

It really is marvelous. It's really marvelous.

And the leaves are just outrageous. They're so gorgeous.

Yeah. And they smell so good too.

That. And we also had lots of lobster rolls. You know, all the stuff you can't really get here in California.

Yes.

And we ate at fabulous places. We ate at little places. Lots of crunching through leaves that had fallen. Oh, 0, I'm telling you, I could do this for the rest of my life.

Oh, how lovely. Yeah. It's such a great present for both of you, and then you get to be together and really connect.

You know, we're very close.

Yes. I can tell.

I mean, despite my being an impossible person and she being an impossible daughter, what can I say? We're both a pain in the ass in our own special ways.

Yes. But you're a pain in the ass together. Right? You're 2 pain in the ass.

Yes. So it's a great relationship.

It's so lucky. That's so beautiful. I love the idea. I've actually given, my boys I I have 2 sons, and I've given them both, frequently, I've given them, like, experiences, as gifts as opposed to more crap to have around the house.

You know? Mean by experiences?

I mean tickets to shows, to tickets to, games are both, really into sports, so I get them tickets to go see the Lakers or the whatever it happens to be, baseball, the go see the Dodgers, stuff like that. They love that kind of thing. But now I'm thinking I'm gonna give them trips with me. Absolutely. Yeah.

I'm gonna do it. Absolutely. So you're obviously very fit. You work out all the time. What's your deal with that?

What's your workout at all.

Get out of here. No way, Rita.

Well, my knees are shot to pieces from all that dancing. I mean, West Side Story no. The thing that really killed my knees was playing, Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard. Oh. And, you know how she makes these incredible entrances down the steps?

Yes.

Well, in order to come down steps, you have to go up steps backstage. Right?

Uh-huh. Yes.

And that almost killed me. That that really ruined my knees. It's ruined many knees. Many, many knees. So I I don't do things that call for knee work, and that's almost everything.

So I walk. I walk the dog, and, I can't bend them very much. In fact, when and if I am asked to accept a wonderful award

Mhmm.

Which happens more now that I'm, you know, older, and they're saying quick before she gets kicks the bucket. Let's give her this award. Yeah. Let's not be let's not be found wanting. So, I mean, they think I don't know these things.

Uh-huh. Anyway, I always have to say, am I going to go up steps to the stage to accept this award?

Mhmm.

Because if so, then I really need some help.

Well, I was there when you accepted at the recently at the Academy Museum, and they gave you an award. Oh, were you there? Yeah. I was there. And I heard your speech, which I wanted to talk about.

But the, I don't remember you getting help going up the stairs.

Oh, it's like 40 men came over.

No. This is bullshit.

No. I really my my knees hurt terribly when I go upstairs. So my my grandson, Justin, was the first 1 there. And I told him, I said, if there's steps, please come help me. But you still walk.

I mean, you're obviously yes. Okay. So then and what about if you don't mind, I'm curious to know, do you have, like, a do you have a food thing? Do you watch what you eat? Are you explain what your food situation is.

I try not to.

You try not to eat?

No. I try not to watch what I eat. Oh my god. You're so funny. But, no.

I I eat pretty much what I like. Yes. I am pre what my doctor calls prediabetic.

Okay.

So I do have to be careful about sweets and stuff like that. Uh-huh. But I've been that for, you know, years, and I'm still good. Good. So,

so to hell with it.

I'm just a a lucky little bitch.

Yeah. You are. You really are.

I am. I am. I was just born with fantastic genes. I have really good skin for someone who's, you know, 93 today.

I know. And then I read you used to sit out in the sun and and become like a piece of bacon. What the hell? Oh my god. You haven't had skin you haven't had skin cancer issues or anything from that?

Never. Never. Never. Isn't that amazing?

Yeah. You're so lucky.

My mom did.

She did.

You know, she had little skin cancer things. But, I've never I've never had a problem with my skin. Doesn't mean I don't have wrinkles. You just can't see them here. Yeah.

But no. That's even better because I'm out of focus.

Yeah. Out of focus is always good.

Whereas my mom would say, Ju Ju, out of focus. My mother said the most wonderful things, the best thing she ever said, and I can't always tell this story, but I know I can with you.

Tell me.

My my brother was graduating from high school, and she gave him a little party. And she had about, I don't know, about 10 people, grown ups. And she was so proud of him that he was graduating from, as she called it, Unier High.

Oh.

Junior high.

Mhmm.

And, and she said, everybody, I wanna say something. And she said, I am so proud. I just want to tell you that he is graduating today from Lacante Junior High. Can you imagine the expressions on faces? I mean, there were people who I mean, there were eyes that went like this.

Big, big eyes.

And I remember I ran to her and I said, mommy, for god's sake.

But she didn't know. She didn't know.

I know. Of course not. But it was also very very annoying too sometimes. And I said, a e I o u. Can't you say that?

Can't you say she said, no. And you know very well why I got trouble with my bowels. So leave me alone. She was funny.

So speaking of your mom, when you left Puerto Rico, you had a very tight family community back in Puerto Rico. And you came to the United States with your mom when you were 5 or 5, I believe. Yeah. And it was just the 2 of you in New York. How did you in those early days, how did the 2 of you navigate together?

You were a team. Correct?

Actually, if she were alive, you should ask her because I'll never understand how she did it. Mhmm. She had 2 or 3 jobs at once. Yeah. My mother was a wonderful seamstress.

She had jobs sewing. She would leave me with, you know, a friend, and she would go down to the to the the district where they do all the sewing and and that kind of stuff.

The garment district?

Thank you. That's the 1 thing that's happened since I became this age. I forget nouns.

That's fine. I'm here for you. I'm here for you.

Okay. Anyway, she did that. She took me to shows. She took me to dancing class. I used to dance for grandpa in Puerto Rico.

And that's how it all started because I used to dance to records. Mhmm. And, he loved it. He'd clap in time, and he'd laugh, and he'd smile. And I remember thinking, this is nice.

Yeah. I like this. I like this a lot. Yeah. And that hasn't changed.

I love the attention.

Yes.

I mean, everybody every actor, not every, but many actors who say they don't are full of shit. They like the attention.

They do. They do like the attention.

Or let's put it this way. They need the attention.

Yeah. That's the way to say it. I need it. Mhmm.

I'm I'm an attention person.

Mhmm.

I love it when people say I love you. That's swell. It's not as though I'm I'm fighting and battling all these fans. I don't have that kind of career or life, so it's cool. And I just moved from a big house to a condo in a lovely little town near San Francisco.

Mhmm. And I always know when they recognize me now that it's a small town because I get this a lot.

Rita's smiling and waving at me. Right? Just so our listeners know.

Right. And sometimes there's a question in their face, and I say, yes. I am.

It's time for a break. There's much more with Rita Moreno when we return. Certainly, you've taken a lot of pictures with your kids and family this year. Holidays, 1st day of school, vacations, and all those little moments in between. Here's the thing.

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Classes come in all lengths. Whether you have just 10 minutes or you're ready to dive into a 45 minute session. There's always something ready on demand or live whenever you need it. Find your push, find your power with Peloton atonepeleton.com. Rita, I read your memoir, and I have to say, it's a page turner.

It's really well written. Your life is just fascinating, and you're able to relay that beautifully in the written word.

That reminds me of something, and I have to say it when I can think of it because otherwise, I'll forget.

Go.

I did my, I do a talk, and it's about myself.

K.

And it's not on paper.

Uh-huh.

It's somebody having a conversation me. So it's called a conversation with Rita Moreno. And I never know what they're going to ask Okay. Because I usually don't know the person who's going to do this. Oh, I see.

But they know me, and they know my career, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. And I did it recently somewhere. And somebody said to me afterward, my god. You are what's the movie that Tom Hanks did where he played that wonderful character?

Life is like a Forrest

Gump.

Somebody said, you're Forrest Gump because you've done everything. You've been Washington DC, The Walk on Washington. Yes. Marlon Brando was your lover. Yes.

You dated Elvis Presley. And and and I talk about all of that stuff, and sometimes it's hilarious. Sometimes it's heartbreaking

Yes.

Because being in this business, being this age particularly now, is difficult. You don't get the jobs

Right.

That you used to. But when he said Forrest Gump, I said, you know, I think you're right.

Yeah.

I've done it all. Almost.

You've done it all.

Do you know my wonderful story about Martin Luther King?

Well, this is the story I want you to tell, please, because it you know, I was I was lucky to be at the Academy Museum when you were, getting the

honor because I brought it up.

I know. But our listeners don't know it. So you need to explain, set the stage. You were involved in the civil rights movement. You were there at the march on Washington, and you were right there next to doctor King.

Correct?

I

was I was 10 feet away on a chair sitting next to Sammy Davis junior. Jeez. And, Martin Luther King gets up to speak. Yes. And he starts a speech that was not the 1 we know

Mhmm.

At the March on Washington. And at that point, his very dear friend, who was that gospel singer? Oh, god. She was his good friend. Was it

was it Mahalia? Mahalia. Mahalia Jackson.

Mahalia, she was there with him.

Mhmm.

And she reaches for the back of his jacket because he started another speech that she was not expecting. I saw this, and I heard this. She says, Martin, tell him about the dream, Martin. Just tugging on his jacket, and he literally stopped and started again. It didn't seem that way.

You know, who knew? Yeah. Who knew? Yeah. And he starts the I had a dream speech and the proof of that because a lot of people didn't believe me.

Yeah. Because I'm 1 of very few people who knows this story. Nancy Pelosi knows this story. Mhmm. And, what happened was that she apparently had heard him do this speech in 1 of the churches Right.

Of a Sunday. Yes. And when she saw he wasn't gonna do that 1, she thought, no. No. No.

No. He's got to tell them about the dream. Yeah. He's got to I mean, just this gives me such huge goosebumps. Me too.

It makes me teary too.

Teary.

And he and there's proof that he was not going to do that speech because you can look it up in the archives. If you look up the speech, it does not have I Had a Dream in It. No shit. No shit. Is that a story?

That is a story. Can you talk about that? And at that point, you hadn't heard him give that speech. Yeah. Can you talk about your personal Rita experience hearing that speech in that moment of time?

Can you bring us back to how you felt hearing it?

I'll tell you what. He was a great pastor

Yeah.

Because he was also an actor. Right. That's what made him but that's what made him so spectacular.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, I remember when his voice starts to tremble. I had a dream, and people say, yes, that they're going crazy Yeah. Before he even goes on. Yeah. Everybody's yelling, yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And, I mean, my hair was just standing straight up. Sammy Davis was fit to be tied.

He was just crazed with with with emotion. Everybody was crazed. And every damn time that man said something like that or let his voice tremble because, god, he knew when to do that.

Yeah.

See, that's that's acting too.

Yeah. He could read the room as it were.

You're sincere about what you're saying. Yeah. But it also calls for drama Yeah. And a sense of drama.

Yes.

And I realized how fortunate I was to have been asked to attend.

Yes.

It was Harry Belafonte who wanted some Hollywood people there because, I'm assuming, he wanted Martin to know that there were people in Hollywood who were sincere. And that's why he invited a group of us. Joseph Mankiewicz was there, James Garner. Now, Jimmy Garner was a friend of mine because I had done a bunch of his TV shows as a guest star. Yeah.

And Jimmy, in the airplane, was guzzling Pepto Bismol because he had he had a an ulcer. Oh. And he was scared to death that he would never work again. James Garner.

Wow.

So you can imagine how I felt. Wow. I mean, I didn't have that kind of name in a 1000000 years, and and, I was terrified.

You were terrified because I would never work again.

Yeah.

I would I mean, come on. With good reason you thought this. Yeah. And, for the listeners, the Hollywood blacklist was a period of time largely in the late forties to the fifties where the government persecuted people they suspected of being communist sympathizers. So given that, what did you learn about bravery during that period of time?

I learned that it was the only way to function. And, I think I was immensely brave for this reason. How afraid you are determines how brave you are as far as I'm concerned. Oh. So sometimes people do things that I know are brave but nobody else knows.

And I think that person is really courageous. So how how frightened you are, like I was, that I would never work again or that people you know, the press would take advantage of this Puerto Rican.

Mhmm.

Let's not forget that.

Mhmm.

That takes courage. Mhmm. I didn't think of it that way then. I just knew that I had an obligation Mhmm. And a responsibility, and that's why I was there.

That's why Harry invited me to be 1 of the people. Mhmm. Because at that point, just before then, I'd been doing a lot of political stuff. I had just started to get I had a friend, a girlfriend, a roommate, Phyllis, who was very political. In fact, I believe she was a communist once, no longer.

But she became my mentor and my teacher. She politicized me. Uh-huh. And we met in group therapy.

Oh, interesting.

And and became roommates. As a matter of fact, I was crazy about her, and she found me she loved dearly loved me because she knew that I had gumption. I didn't see myself that way at all.

She saw it in you before you saw it in yourself.

She saw it way before I ever saw it in me.

I love that what you say about bravery. I really do. I just think

it's It it's really determined by how frightened you are. Don't tell me that people who do risky things aren't worried that somehow it may, you know, come back and slap in the face. Yeah. I think I think people know that it takes a certain amount. They may not call it that.

Right. I call it courage.

Right. It is courage. You know, you've mentioned actually that Anita became a role model for you, which I think that's interesting because I've never thought about, like, a character that I played as being a role. Well, of course, I've played a bunch of fuck ups, but in in my career. But what was it about the character of Anita that that you admired?

Well, it was the first Hispanic role that I had been offered, mhmm, who loved herself. She had a sense of dignity. I've never played a Hispanic character, excuse me, who had those qualities. This was the very first time that I played a Hispanic character who wasn't talking like this all the time. You know?

Who stood proud. Who who owned it proudly all.

She owned it. And she was proud of herself. Mhmm. And she wasn't gonna take any shit from anybody. Mhmm.

And I I was astounded that I was offered the part. I was astounded because I thought I'm so not that. Let me tell you an interesting story.

Please.

Speaking of Anita.

Yes?

When I finally got the part because I tested and tested and tested.

Hey. Did Chita Rivera also try out for it, or how did

that work? Never never offered. No.

Wow. By the way, just so our listeners know that Chita played Anita on Broadway.

Oh, she was the original Lonita.

But, anyway, I'm interrupting you. You go ahead. Talk about that. You're you were auditioning for, you're auditioning for the role.

I got the part after testing a lot. They tested everybody in Hollywood with brown hair and brown eyes. Uh-huh. So I got the part finally, and I was beyond thrilled. I was it was a great part.

Yeah.

Just a great part.

Great part. And the music is so gorgeous.

Please. Yes. Yes. The first thing I did when I heard that I got the part, I ran to the music store and bought the music, the whole manuscript Mhmm. So that I could be ahead of the game, and I would know America and all a boy like that, that kind of thing, so that I would know them songs backwards.

You know? That that there would be no problem with that.

Yeah.

So I brought it home, and the first thing I did was turn the page to America. And here is what I read and sang to that manuscript. Puerto Rico, you ugly island. Island of tropic diseases. You know, even just saying it now in that context gives me the chills and makes me makes my stomach roil.

Because when I saw that Mhmm. I didn't realize that that was the verse in the Broadway play.

Mhmm.

And I remember thinking, I can't I can't do this.

Mhmm.

I I can't I can't do this. And then this went on for days days days. And I kept thinking, I'm gonna have to just, you know, call my agent and say I can't do this. And then I would say, but I want the part. I want this so badly.

I can taste it. Yeah. And then I would say to myself, no. No. No.

You can't you can't do it. You you will never ever live that down. I I was probably right. Mhmm. And I would say, alright.

I'll call my agent, and it'll be hideous because he will scream at me. We worked so hard to get that fucking part.

Yeah.

I mean, I tested and tested and all kinds of stuff. I went through hell to get it. And I thought I I I was scared to death that he would talk me into doing it anyway.

Did you tell anybody you had a problem with that line?

No. No. No. No. I didn't know what to do.

It didn't occur. So what happened?

I'll tell you. The day before I had designated the day that I was gonna call the agent, the next day, Mhmm. I got a delivery at my door of the new script Mhmm. Of West Side Story because the changes had been made. They had to because this was meant for theater.

Now this was the movie script.

Yes.

And I went through the pages until I got to America where they had the lyrics. And it said, Puerto Rico, my heart's devotion. Let it sink back in the ocean. That I could deal with because it's a character who says, I don't want to go back to that country. But she's not saying you ugly island, island of tropic diseases.

I mean, I I'm actually surprised that and I was then that Sondheim would write a lyric like that. Anyway, that solved that problem.

Wow.

And I said to my I called my agent the next day. I'll say, I have a story to tell you. And when he heard that I was thinking of me, he said, you're kidding me. I said, of course not. Do you think I could really do that to my people?

Wow.

And he said, no. I understand. I said, you I don't think you do, but never mind. Thank you for saying that.

You you talk in your book a lot about sexual harassment, which you endured at that party.

Oh, that awful Hollywood cocktail party.

That awful Hollywood cocktail party in which you were sexually harassed

By the host.

By the host.

And by, Harry Cohen. He was the head of Columbia, and he was there at that party. And the very first thing that came out of his mouth when I was introduced to him was, I'd like to fuck you. To that day, I had never heard anyone use that word. I'd heard the word.

I wasn't, you know, that innocent, but I was in shock. And you know what I did? I giggled. I didn't know what to do.

Can I tell you something? Somebody said something like that to me back in the eighties in Hollywood, and I did the same thing. I giggled.

Did you?

I did. I did. I was very young.

Shows how helpless we were then. It's amazing. We didn't we really didn't know.

And if you could, like, going I know what I would do looking back on that. I wish I could replay it and just say, why don't you go fuck yourself? Which is I

think you go fuck yourself?

Yeah. Don't fuck me. Go fuck yourself. Is that what you would do if you could redo that moment?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I'd I've no qualms.

But in other words, there's no giggling now?

Oh, not at all. It's just it's just disgraceful.

Well, except to say that don't you think the whole thing it's it's interesting because you giggle because, first of all, it's so shocking. It feels so shameful. And, you know, as women, I think we kind of absorb their shame.

That's what's so weird. You take on this.

The ones who should be ashamed.

But no. It's the opposite happens. Right. It's it's bananas. That's why I giggled.

I know. It's bizarre. It's bizarre. Let's take 1 more quick break. My conversation with Rita Moreno continues in just a moment.

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Wrap yourself in luxury this fall with Cozy Earth. Go to cozy earth.com/wiser and use code wiser for an exclusive discount of up to 40% off. If you get a post purchase survey, say you heard about Cozy Earth on the Wiser Than Me podcast. So in the wonderful PBS documentary about your life, you talk about something which I think is gonna really resonate with a lot of women listening to this. When your husband, Leonard, passed away, you were married for 45 years.

Yep. You felt so many things, of course, and you were you were, you know, with him at the end.

I'm glad you're asking me this. I know what you're gonna ask. Go ahead.

Yeah. But you said that you felt a sense of relief. And I think that that was an incredibly talk about brave. Brave thing to say. I think it gives voice to something that is sometimes unspoken.

And can you talk about that?

Many times unspoken.

Yeah. Right.

I'll tell you something interesting. About 4 months after he passed away, I was at a party with people of my age mostly. Mhmm. And there were 5 women who were widowed. And, I said to them, I would like to ask you a question that I hope won't offend you.

Mhmm.

But I said, I really need some backup here because I really thought I man, you're a piece of work, you know, feeling relieved like this. Because the morning after I came back home, he died in New York in a hospital. Morning after, in my bed, I said, when I woke up, oh my god. I can stay in bed all day if I want to. I can watch all the TV news that I want to because that used to make him crazy, which is, you know, fair.

That's fair. And I realized that I just it's like something amazing went over me, passed over me. And I asked these ladies at that party back to that.

Mhmm.

I told them how I felt. And I said, did any of you, by any chance, feel like that? There were 5 of them. 4 of them said yes. Uh-huh.

And they didn't hesitate to say it.

Uh-huh.

Maybe because I'd brought it up the way I did, which was very simple and plain.

And it's not you're not saying that your love is gone. No. Or you

You're not saying anything like remotely like that. What you're saying is I started a new life Right. Brand new life Right. That I couldn't give up because of my daughter. I just couldn't dream of leaving her without her father at the ready at all times.

I just couldn't

do it. Did you have any loneliness?

I had loneliness before he passed. Oh. Because I didn't feel able to share that with anyone. I really thought of going back into therapy because 1 of the best things that I've ever done for myself was therapy, by the way, psychotherapy. But it was weird to feel all this freedom.

I didn't know what the hell to do with it.

What did you do with it?

Not much for a while. I cried a lot because I did miss him. Yeah. And you know what I missed a lot?

Tell me.

A lot. To this day, I still miss it. Whenever he would pass me, usually it was in the kitchen because I was always in the kitchen doing something. He would run his hand over my tush, Aw. Which is so sweet.

Mhmm. Always no. No. Nothing said. Nothing explained.

I knew what that meant. He just loved my tush. He loved me very, very much. Mhmm. I think that Lenny loved me more than I loved him.

Mhmm.

Because people, when they marry, very often make a pact, an unspoken pact. In my case, that's exactly what we did. My pact with Lenny was, I'll be your little girl and make you very happy if you'll be my daddy and protect me.

I see.

Because I had a bunch of fathers.

Right. I know.

You have stepfathers and stuff. And that was the unspoken pact that we made. And then 1 day, after about 10 years, I began to dislike the marriage because he became a controller.

Mhmm.

And, and that really drove me crazy. And, also, the controlling part did something else that surprised me. I realized that in being his little girl, I was also this exotic little tropical bird. That that's how he also saw me. Mhmm.

And there was a point when I I didn't want that anymore. I wanted to say and I I I didn't know how to get it. This is the kind of man who, when you would go to the thermostat in the house, go to turn it up because you were cold. He'd say, don't do that, and I wouldn't.

Oh, I see.

I see. How that was.

So that was that was the pact. You listened. Part of the pact. That was part of the pact.

You know, you said you wanted this. You got it.

So you don't have a partner now. Right? Yeah. And so can you talk about, finding community? I mean, it's 1 thing when you're working because that's all built in.

You know, you have your community at work. But when you're not working, what's your community? How have you found your community? I know you have you're a proud mommy, and you're a proud grandma. Mhmm.

But beyond that Other than that.

Okay. I'll tell you a story. K. I'm I'm full of stories. I love it.

Apocalyptic stories. No. When I moved to this wonderful apartment, I found myself and I love it. I love it. It's beautiful.

It's gorgeous. I found myself getting very sad. This was that you know, this was, like, 8 months ago. Okay.

I

mean, really sad.

Mhmm.

And I had given up driving. Also, I don't drive anymore because I don't trust my reflexes anymore.

Okay.

And, I got very lonely. Now, I have friends. I have friends who love and adore me and love and adore me in a wonderful way because it's not Rita Moreno, the performer. No. It's you.

Rita my friend Rita.

Yeah. You

know? So I I I still don't quite understand how it was that I got very, very depressed and very lonely, lost my appetite, and I sat myself down and did my what I do, which my therapist urged me to do whenever something puzzled me.

Yes.

He would say, sit down and think about it and come to some kind of conclusion if you can. And I thought about it. I said, I'm in an apartment I love. I have my daughter whom I worship practically. I have this beautiful place.

I have this lovely little town. People smile at me because they recognize me, and they're respectful. They don't you know, all of that good stuff. What is wrong with you? Why are you doing this?

And then I thought, I know what's wrong.

What?

You don't know how to make friends because people have always come to you.

Oh, so what did you do?

So 1 day, I was in the supermarket, and there was a lady I'd seen several times there who had the loveliest face and this beautiful smile. And 1 day, I went to the supermarket after I made this decision, and, she smiled at me once again. And I stopped her, and I said, you have such a lovely face. Oh. I said, I I think I would like to know you better.

She said, oh, thank you. And I said, I I I amaze me sometimes. And I said, would you would you like to have lunch with me tomorrow? Oh. And she said, yeah.

I I I'd love to. Oh. I said, great. Okay. See you at noon.

So I met her for lunch, and we're looking at the venues. And she says to me, tell me something. Do you always go picking up older ladies in Supermarkets? I said I said, no. She's still her friend.

Oh, that's so nice.

Her name is Gail.

Good old Gail. Everybody needs Gail in their lives. That's right. Yes. Was it hard giving up driving?

I bet that was hard. Jesus.

It's still hard.

Yeah. I bet.

Because I used to love to tootle around in my car. Of course.

You have complete independence, autonomy.

And that's what you miss.

Mhmm.

You know? I found myself calling Fernanda, my daughter.

Yeah.

Would you have a couple of hours free tomorrow? You know, that kind of thing. Oh, I hated that. I still miss it. I still miss toodling.

Of course, you do. I can fully understand why that would be hard to give up. And what about things like cognition? Like, when you're try I mean, it doesn't I mean, you're searching for words here and there, but it doesn't sound like you're having an any serious cognition

issue. The thing that's happening that's been happening, which is that I don't always remember nouns. Names of people, particularly names of people.

Right. Right.

That's why I had asked you about that movie. See? I forgot it again. Well, now I forgot it. Okay.

But that yeah. So far, that's the only thing. But it's it's a very annoying thing. Yeah. Because you can see the object or the person.

Yeah. You see them as clear as day, but your brain will not come up with the name until 5 minutes later. It does come back.

Is it frustrating to ask for help in those circumstances or not really?

Yes. It's frustrating. Of course, it's frustrating.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because very often, I have to describe the person whose name I can't think of. You know, the 1 who was married to Harvey Weinstein.

Right.

You know, that kind of thing.

Right.

Oh, you mean so and so? No. That's not the 1. So, yes, it's annoying.

Yeah. It's annoying. I wanna I'm gonna completely shift gears here because I there's 1 aspect of your life that we haven't touched on, and I think that people would benefit to hear from you about this. I know you battled when you were younger, of course, you battled feelings of inadequacy, and you you attempted suicide. Yep.

I wanna know if do you still struggle with a negative voice in your head, that negative voice from way back when? And do you have advice for people who struggle with a lack of self worth who are listening to this today?

There is very definitely a side of me that is always kind of delighted when something doesn't work out for me. I've named her kidding. Oh. I've named her Rosita. Little Rosita, which was my name as a child.

Yes.

But this is a naughty Rosita who kinda sits on a shoulder. And I've learned to deal with her this way. Rosita, when something bad happens, will very very often appear, not always, but often enough appear and say, I told you. She's still there after all these years.

Really?

And after wonderful, wonderful psychiatric work and all that, Rosita exists. And what I've learned to do with Rosita is say, go to your room, little bitch. Sometimes she does. Sometimes she doesn't.

But, in my But what happens when she doesn't, Rita?

Then I have to I, Rita, have to deal with it in my in my own way. I just have to, you know I examine stuff. I examine stuff all the time. I break things apart like a puzzle. It's that's that's what I do.

I'm very good at that. Mhmm. I'm very good at knowing why people behave in certain ways Mhmm. Which is part of being an actor. Sure.

Human behavior. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And, I'm really good at that.

Mhmm. And, I I'm able to do it with myself. It doesn't always work. But the thing is, you have to address it, her, him, whoever. You have to address it.

You can't just say, god. I'm feeling so miserable. I'll try to forget this. This it doesn't work anyway. Yeah.

That doesn't work at all.

I I in your life, the the there's a theme that I'm feeling, and the theme is about power and freedom. And I think, if you agree with me, as you've as you've lived your life, you've felt more power, self power, and you've gained more freedom. Is that safe to say?

Yeah. You're a very smart girl. Yeah. And you're you're not a girl either, but, to

me I'll take it.

Yes. I think that works very well. And I'll tell you something else that I've started doing in the actually, since I moved here, which is not more than 10 months maybe. There's something about me that's very joyous. Yeah.

No kidding. It's just very much a part of me. Mhmm. I laugh a lot. I mean, laughing is like a hobby with me.

Yeah.

I loved the reason I really fell in love with my husband is because he was funny.

Yeah. That's the great aphrodisiac.

I'm the only woman in life in this life, I'm sure, who thought that Mel Brooks was sexy because he was funny.

No. There's another person who thinks the same, and that's me. I couldn't agree with you more.

Okay. I'll tell you why I think that's sexy. There's something about someone who has a quick wit that makes me feel protected from the outside world.

Oh, interesting.

And I find that very sexy because they can protect me.

Ah, with their wit.

That's still sexy for me because that's a way of protecting me

Mhmm.

By just coming up with some funny, hilarious thing that will distract that person who's handing out the poison. Oh, interesting. What's your reason?

I think for me, it's twofold. I think it speaks to intelligence, which I find intoxicating.

Oh, me too. I forgot to mention that. That's so important. So important.

Yeah. And it's also just it's playful, and it's joyous. And that's what I want. I want play. I want joy.

That's my goal. If there was anything more to get in my life, I would just want more joy and more play. Yeah. And so, Rita, speaking of joy, it has been so wonderful to speak with you today. And before we wrap up, I do wanna ask you a couple little quick questions.

Okay.

Okay. Is there something you would go back and tell yourself at 21, Rita?

Oh, boy. I certainly would.

What would it be?

You have value. No matter what you think, you are special. And you have value. Nobody ever said that around me.

Mhmm. Is there something you would go back and say yes to?

That I originally said no to, you mean? Yeah. I said yes too often. Let's put it that way.

Oh, I see.

That was my that was my character. Even when I was not happy about saying it, I would say yes.

Oh, that's fascinating.

And, I was very off you know, that man who raped me that I talk about

Yes.

In the in in the documentary. I ran into him about 3 years ago. And it turned out that the concert I was doing the following night was booked by him. He's still an agent.

He was. And just so our listeners understand, he was your agent at the time, and he raped you.

And I was 16, and he raped me.

And he raped you.

And I kept him as my agent. That's that's the bad part. Yeah. I found out that he had booked me in this concert about 3 years ago in Palm Springs. And he said he called me on the phone, and I thought, oh my god, he's still around.

And he said, my wife would love to meet you.

Oh, Rita.

And I said, I I I don't I don't Okay. What's her name? And, he told me her name. He said, Let's meet at the such and such restaurant for brunch. And, you won't believe the end of the story.

I sit down, I meet his wife, and we talk and all that. She has no idea. None. At 1 point, she decides she needs to go to the bathroom, excuses herself. And there we are, just the 2 of us.

And I said to him, I have to talk to you about something. And he said, but let me say this first. And I said, okay. He said, I was always sorry I didn't make you pregnant. What?

Yeah. That's what all my friends say when I, when I tell them this story.

And read a what and then what?

Well, okay. How do you respond?

How did you respond?

How did you say, you son of a bitch. I've never been in the and I I it that didn't work for me. And I just said to him, you are a piece of work. And I got up and left. That's all I could do.

I mean, what what can you say? Well, he has he has

to live with himself, that horrible, demented, awful man. He's he has to look at himself in the mirror and be who he is. I'm glad you got up and left. I'm glad.

He didn't realize what he had said. He really didn't. Course, he was coursed.

So coursed. Crude. Vulgar. Foul. Inhumane.

Mhmm. Well, good. So Yeah. You didn't tell him off except that you did. You got up and you left.

There was no way to tell him off. What what can you say?

Right.

You were awful. I'll never forgive you. I haven't forgiven you. It doesn't work. It just doesn't you said it.

I think in that circumstance, less is more. Yeah.

You're a

piece of work. I'm out. Yeah. Wow. That's just incredible, Rita.

You really are brave. So now I have 1 final question for you. Is there something you're looking forward to?

Yeah. Being 94. Yeah. So far, so good.

Oh, that's right. I love it.

I mean, if it if it's only nouns that I'm forgetting, that's not the worst thing in the world.

No. It's not. No. It doesn't really not.

Are horrible. But so what? I don't need them for anything anymore.

No. It's fine. You don't have to walk up gobs of stairs. Right. And, listen.

You are a blessing.

Except to accept awards. That's right.

And I'm sure there'll be plenty more coming your way. You deserve every 1 of them.

Oh god. No. I don't think there's anything left. I've got a lot of those.

But listen. I I wanna tell you how much I admire you, and I, you're you're just a complete and total blessing to the world.

Wow. That's lovely. Thank you.

And, also, thank you for coming and talking to us on this show. We've got lots of wisdom that you've imparted today, and we're very grateful.

Well, you're so special, anyway. I was really was looking forward to this.

Oh, thanks.

I I had such a good time.

Good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here.

My pleasure. Goodbye.

Goodbye. How much fun to catch Rita on her birthday. Oh, my god. That's a wiser than me first. And, obviously, she's experienced so much in her life.

Alright. Let's get my mom on the Zoom and see what she has to say about this conversation. Hi, mommy. Hi, love. Hi, lovey mommy.

How are you doing?

I'm doing fine. How are you doing?

Good. I just spoke with Rita Moreno, who is 93 years old, if you can even believe what I'm telling you.

She's incredible. And is she still do dancing like crazy?

She doesn't dance as much as she did because her knees are kinda shot as she says. However, she's sharp as a tack. She says she's still searching for nouns and things, but she's still working. She gets out there. I mean, it's it's quite remarkable.

By the way, mom, when you were in New York in the sixties Mhmm. Even the late fifties, I guess, did you see West Side Story on Broadway?

I did. Yep. You did? Oh, yes. Yes.

Absolutely. Yep.

So you saw the original production?

The original production. Right.

Tell me what your when you saw it, what was your reaction? Do you recall?

Oh, breathless. Just mid breathless. It was just 1 of those I mean, you knew from the minute it started. It was a little bit like A Chorus Line. The minute that it started and and the Music Man, these shows, the minute they started, you just knew that you you were gonna have a glorious time.

Wow. Yeah.

So you got to see so you saw Chita Rivera play the role of Anita because she's the 1 who played it on Broadway. Right?

I know. So what what year was that that? Do you remember?

Oh, what year was it on Broadway? I'm gonna guess that it was in the late fifties. I don't know that for sure, but I would guess that because the movie of West Side Story came out in 1961.

Right.

So it had to be before then.

So so here was it. I was working at ABC at that time doing summer replacement, and I was a replacement for somebody's secretary. And, so I was listening. He had a telephone call, and the call came. And it was like, get ticket.

It is gonna be a smash hit. You know, get the get tickets. So but we did and, oh my god. Yeah. Wow.

So so many things so many things then.

What else did you say?

Oh my gosh. I saw, Waiting for Godot with, with all these off Broadway things. And that had who was the lion? Bert Lahr.

Bert Lahr.

And 0 Mostel in something called Rhinoceros. So many wonderful things that I saw at that time.

Yeah. Yeah. Did West Side Story did that impact your impression of sort of the Latin community at that time? Did the show have impact on you from a cultural point of view as you consider the commune the Latin community in New York?

It did. It it, it, how to say this? You know, La Cage Aux Foul sort of taught me about homosexual love. Mhmm. It made me see that it was real.

I mean, that that made me understand it. Mhmm. And, the Latin community, the the sort of pride that they had in the and the struggle that they had, I sort of knew it, but it was, yes, it was a way to understand it.

It was a way to

Got it. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a very powerful work of art.

Yeah. Very. Yeah. Yeah.

Great, Mommy. Well, thank you so much. I'm so happy to talk to you about these little things.

So great to talk to you about these things too. And, my my my poetry group was together yesterday, and, and they they all said he said, You're a celebrity now. I said

You are, mommy. Everybody is crazy about you.

I said, Well, you know, it's just regular conversations that Julia and I have. And I said, No. I actually don't want to get off the phone. She always says, well, okay. And then that's enough.

Not to leave the phone. Yeah. I'm like a therapist who goes, okay. Well, I'm afraid our time is up.

Exactly. Exactly. So so until next time.

Until next time, dear patient.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, much love.

Love you, mommy. Talk to you later.

Okay. Bye.

Bye bye. Bye. And before we go, dear listeners, if you or someone you know is in emotional distress or thinking about suicide, you can call or text 988 to access a trained crisis counselor. There's more wiser than me with lemonade at premium on Apple. You can listen to every episode of season 3 ad free.

Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcast app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me, and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus.

This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jameela Zarah Williams, Alex MacOwen, and Oha Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of new content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Farber.

And our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.

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