Transcript of Hired or Hustled? Avoiding Job Search Predators

What's Your Mount Rushmore Podcast?

This episode, our favorite cocktails.

It would have never occurred to me prior to The Big Lebowski to say, can I get a White Russian?

After watching that movie, I think I even said to Susan, I'm like, I want to have a White Russian now.

So out of context to turn to your wife and say that once. You know what? I want a White Russian. Yes. What did I do? Mail order bride. Get on the internet and find one. What's Your Mount Rushmore?

I don't know.

Listen wherever you get podcasts. Welcome to We Fixed It. You're welcome. The show where we take over companies, you come along for the ride, and we try to put them back better than we found them. When it comes to identifying talent, that's a real skill. Making professionals better at what they do, that's a true specialization. There are seasoned professionals out there who are really good at this, like coaches and recruiters who are helping people find their way. And doing a lot of good. Even in a labor market as complicated as this one, which we'll talk about, they're finding opportunities for job seekers, helping people upskill, and providing actual value. And then there's a new type of company that's playing in ethically gray areas. These companies are doing great. They'll tell you that themselves. They are making a killing off of unemployed or underemployed people, many of them vulnerable, who just want to work. And these types of companies are acting as a new hoop to jump through. You want opportunities? Oh, don't talk to the companies themselves. You're going to have to talk to us first. And you better get in line. We're going to talk about this new type of job gatekeeper skimming off the top every which way and see what it will take to make them go away.

Melissa, tell us more about this.

Well, if you've been looking for a job anytime in the last few years, you don't need anyone to tell you how bad it feels out there. It's stressful. You're applying in a sea of hundreds of other candidates. Some of these roles may be stale. Or are they even really open? You finally get traction. You run the interview gauntlet, thousands of interviews, it feels like, at least 5 screens, panels, culture chats, take-home projects. And just when you start to have hope, the role goes on hold and disappears without a word.

Ghosted.

You're exhausted, scared about money, and somehow still back at square one. And that's exactly when this new wave of helpers shows up. If your LinkedIn says open to work or fractional, your inbox fills up quickly. Pay-to-play recruiters who will represent you if you swipe your card. Platforms that charge a monthly fee plus a cut of any revenue you make, even if you found the work yourself. High-ticket programs that want up to $10K upfront and 10-15% of whatever you might earn someday with no real guarantees they'll deliver anything. Not all of these services are bad. Some coaches and platforms genuinely help people tell their story, land roles, review their resumes, and turn lemons into lemonade. But far too many feel engineered to profit from our personal panic. They lean on fear, ask if you're worth investing in, and then publicly celebrate their own revenue and growth while their clients are still lying awake at 3:00 AM worrying about how to pay rent. This isn't just annoying. It's a serious distortion of who holds the power and who carries the risk. The people around the job market are thriving, and the people who actually need work are paying in time, money, and emotional bandwidth they don't have.

So the question for us today is, how did we get here? Where's the loudest success stories belong to vendors, not the workers? And what would it take to flip that script so that the ethical recruiters and truly helpful coaches out there stay and the exploiter— exploiters get pushed out and job seekers are treated like the customer in this very system, not just the product being sold. That's what we're here to unpack and hopefully to start fixing today. And I'm so excited to do that with this panel, Erin and Chino, because I believe we all lend to a very professional yet personal perspective to this current fun employment landscape.

Let's get going.

This is a big one.

Yes, it is. And, you know, for the listeners who don't know, I actually run my own recruitment agency, Like Cappuccino, and I am so close to this. And I guess before we begin, I think what's really important is trying to figure out how to decipher you know, what is a recruiter, who is a coach? Because as Melissa just shared, there's 1,000 people who call themselves a coach or recruiter, and it doesn't mean that they're all doing so with your best interests at heart. And so, I think I want to take it back because the reason why recruitment or HR or talent became a specialty is because, you know, back in the day when the market was doing great and everybody had jobs, it was really hard to find people. So you would have recruiters who would specialize in a particular market, creative, design, engineering, whatever the case may be, whether it was full-time, which is again, kind of my area where you're looking for people for a full-time role. And then there are recruiters that focus on temp work where, you know, you have an agency that needs, you know, 3 days of support on a shoot, or, you know, they need you to come in as a SWAT for a specific project that's really highly specialized.

Specialize and only you have the tools or that experience, right? And so this is where recruiters had come in traditionally to help kind of bridge that gap and to find those specialties. That's not to say that's not happening. I'm quite busy in my own role, so I know that it, that is happening. But where you see the shift is these fake jobs where recruiters are now putting out job boards where you're spending your time investing, you know, emotional labor, physical labor, as well sometimes even money, like they're charging you to be a part of their roster with no real job in mind. And in this market, that doesn't work anymore. And so, you know, particularly with these coaches, if you again have that open to work on LinkedIn, they're targeting you and saying, okay, well, I know you need help. Does this make sense, um, you know, for you to jump into that? And I think what people need to start asking themselves is, is this real? Who are you representing? And I think that's the first kind of step in helping decipher who are the good actors and who are, you know, there with the intent to kind of capitalize on your downfall.

And I don't wanna take up all the airspace here 'cause I have so much to say, but, um, I think it's important to just understand why the recruitment was there to begin with and how that has kind of changed in the last, not just 10 years, not 15 years, in the last 8 months. It's completely different and it keeps— the cycle used to be a lot longer and now you're seeing a change in kind of the job market recruitment landscape, I would say every 6 or 7 months now, um, for the last 3 years. So, you know, want to give you the tools to make sure you know how to read what's real and what's not.

Yeah, and those tools are gonna be, that's gonna be everything because Melissa, you touched on it, but if you have the word fractional or you have open to work on your LinkedIn, it is relentless. You and our listeners know this, you get bombarded. Dude, put it up for a day, try it out as an experiment. You will find companies coming out of the woodwork to offer their services, to say, we'll help you. through this, through this market, which, you know, very few people understand this market to the degree that the rest of us don't know. There are experts that do, but some of these companies are, are, you know, look, look at when they registered their domain. Some of them are a few months old or less than a year old. Um, and what they're bragging about is we have X number of subscribers or we have X number of, we'll say I'm in marketing, we'll say marketing. We have 450 marketing candidates in that, that are signed up to our monthly subscription. You should do that too. Which seems like, okay, good, safety in numbers, and my peers are there and they must be finding some value.

But in actuality, you know, and I've had this conversation with these companies, why, why would I be 451? That seems to benefit you as opposed to me if If I was interested in what you had to sell me, now I'm at the back of the line with 450 others in front of me who are already paying you for what you may or may not be fulfilling for them with or without a promise or expectation that you'll actually fulfill what you say you will. 'Cause it's really hard to hold these companies accountable. And now, why am I just another number to you? So, I've had these argumentative, it can get very, you know, triggering. I've had these argumentative kind of conversations and talked about these ethical areas with these vendors. And, you know, they get very up in arms about it and they point to, but the big thing is they point to their profitability, their own profitability as a sign of success. That's their metric.

Well, and I think that the big thing is to say the quiet part out loud. This whole set and series of businesses only exists because candidates like, you know, fractional candidates or people who are unemployed have almost zero power in this market. And so because you don't have the power, that risk is totally upside down, right? So where I'm absorbing all the risk because I'm the candidate looking for a role and I'm desperate, you go to whatever, you know, it's like moths to a light, right? You go to someplace where you're like, OK, this is the new shiny thing. This is how I'm going get a job because I've applied to 400 jobs and gotten 2 interviews, gone through the gauntlet as we talked about earlier, and I still don't have a role, right? And it's way beneath my pay grade that I was hoping for. It's beneath my expertise level, my education level, whatever it might look like. And I still can't get a job at Trader Joe's. What the heck is going on here? And so I think that when people are in these modes of desperation, that taking advantage of the power that you hold and wield over them and the influence that you may have just in— sorry to say this, Aaron, but like your marketing, right?

Like you opened up a website. I don't even know you. I don't even know if you've ever done anything. And so how do we like get people to take a moment to, you know, really work on the confidence of people who are trying, candidates who are trying to put themselves out there? And Chino, I I'm sure that you've had conversations with lots of candidates that you present to great opportunities and roles that we already had imposter syndrome before. Now we have all of this going on and fear. I mean, fear is really something that's playing into this power play and these new companies that middleman companies or whatever we want to call them, business consultants or whatever they might be. And again, I don't want to just bash on all of them because there are some true wonderful coaching opportunities, et cetera, et cetera.

So Gina. Yeah, no, I, you know, I put my hand up too because, you know, it's funny, I obviously rebranded a year ago. So on paper, it looks like I've been there for you, but I've been doing this for 13 years. I've built a rapport with people, but I've always been behind the scenes. And so I would say first thing to any candidate is one, do you trust this person? Do you know their background? Can you actually speak to some of the work that they've done, right? A lot of recruiters recruiters, as you said, or a lot of coaches, their terms of success is, you know, their profitability. That doesn't mean anything to you as a candidate whatsoever. For me, and one of the metrics that we put forward is I got a 98.8% success rate in filling candidates in my 13 years. I've only ever had to replace one person, and that was on my team due to COVID ever. Right? Unheard of numbers. Knock on wood, hopefully it stays this way. And I have referrals to back that up. If you were to look at my network and you talk to people who work with me, that's backed up.

So it's really important for candidates to do their due diligence on who they're working with. So, you know, I'm speaking recruit recruiters, but a ton of coaches, even myself, who is on the other side of this, I too also get inundated with people and I look at them and I say, I look at their credentials first. What is it that you're offering me? Are you sending a blanket kind of spray it and pray kind of approach where you're not really knowing what I'm looking to get into? Are you just kind of hoping that I'm gonna respond? You know, there's a ton of that and people get hooked on that because there is this desperation. And so, The first step as a candidate is to do your due diligence on assessing who these, whether it's a recruiter or a coach, is. There are times that it is needed. Sometimes people do need a coach, whether you're running a business and you have a business coach to help you kind of scale up with either AI or whatever's going on in the world or acting as leaders. Great. That person should have a rap sheet. They should have, hey, I've had 98.8% suss, wait, here's what I've done in my 13 years of time.

If they can't talk to you about this, and if they're just telling you, hey, I have this certificate, which again, a better leg up, look at if it's accredited, sure, another leg up, but what have you actually done? Who have you actually helped? I don't care about your profitability as a business. I need to understand how often have you actually helped people with what I need. So that's step one. Um, and I'm curious to, to kind of get both of your perspectives. On the other side of this, of having reached out to people or having been reached out to those people of kind of how has it been for you and like what have you experienced with that?

Yeah, I'll take the bait sometimes just to have the conversation. Like I wanna see what these companies are all about and it's real. Like, you know, you're talking about finding the right resources and, you know, knowing you're on the right track and that's all I, all super valid. And you know, there was a study that was, that was talked about in BBC that it's the average American job search to find a replacement job takes 6 months. So we're sitting at a 6-month deficit of employment and the average, well, not average, Wall Street Journal talked about the $10,000 job search and that's not lost wages. That's the amount that candidates, potential candidates wanna be candidates are at times putting into resources, companies, services that again claim, maybe they do, maybe they don't, claim to understand this market better, claim to have a shortcut, claim to have a training program, claim to have whatever it is that's going to expedite, take that 6 months down to 6 weeks or whatever their bold claim is. But again, what gets me about it is it's the smoke and mirrors of we're successful. You know, they talk a good game.

We're successful as a company. Look at how we're doing. Come be a part of, or, you know, by proxy, you're just by being around us, that's going to be, it'll contribute to your success. You know, like, when in reality, who knows what they're doing. Like, they may not have a direct conduit to a single company. They may be submitting— yeah, they may have an AI bot that submits your resume the same way that you would, only, only with their name on it, you know. Um, so who really knows? But when you're sitting on a, you know, a 6-month or longer, uh, period without gainful employment and you want to be employed and you've committing sunk costs and devoting resources into your own search, you know, people can get to the point of vulnerability and then someone comes along and talks a good game and says, do you really believe in yourself? Are you worth investing in? Do you care about your own future? Because we're successful. So, and there are hundreds of others here that have already believed in us. What's your problem?

Yeah. I don't like is like kind of the tricky fraudulent take on it too. Erin, I'm sure you've seen this as well because as a fractional advisor, you get a lot of, oh, join our fractional network or da da da da da, right? Right. Whatever. And I've had people reach out to me only to find out it's a franchise. And they want you to pay $25K to create an executive coaching franchise. And I'm like, why would I do that? Like, I'd do that on my own. I don't need $25K. I need $25K from you.

You know, that kind of thing.

I'm not going to give you $25K to put your name on what I would be doing, right? You know, and they're like, oh, we'll give you a playbook. You know, your favorite thing, you know?

And I'm like, I don't think I need a playbook.

So to me, one of the things that I find really frustrating as well, and this is part and parcel to the whole, you know, power play here, is when you look at like roles that are open, Cyno, so many of them look AI-generated, first of all, because every single bullet point is exactly the same for all the, for the entire job, including the required whatever experiences, et cetera. And I have found that really off-putting. And then you see like 3,000 people have applied in the last 24 hours. And it's like, give me a break. I actually just interviewed, and it was interesting because the reason I actually even applied to the role was the job description was fantastic. It was, a story about what they were looking for. It wasn't a job description. It was like, this is what we're building, this is what kind of person needs to come in, you need to be able to do this. It wasn't bullet points. It was like a big old narrative. It felt real. And so actually, when I had this conversation the other day with the person, I just told them, I said, can I just tell you wow on your job description and your posting.

And they said, within less than 24 hours in this high-level role, they said they had over 250 applicants. They had to take it down. But he was enthusiastic about it. He's like, oh, I love that you actually recognize that. And I said, yeah. And not to say that things that are posted on LinkedIn are fraudulent, but I do feel like that's the other thing is that for somebody who's trying to get a job and try to be gainfully employed, it's so hard to read the room, right? It's so hard. And you just think like, well, this is a good company. It's in the Fortune 1000, you know? And so is this really a real role or is it not? I mean, Chino, is there ways for candidates to really look at that?

So we talked about first and foremost is looking at the credibility of whoever's reaching out, whether it's a coach or recruiter. And then the next part is figuring out what type of recruiter they are. So for me, for example, we are not the recruiters that you hire me to find you a job. Those recruiters are far and few between. And to be honest with you, in this given market, scammy. I'd be very aware of anyone that's telling you, hey, if you pay me X amount of dollars, I'm going to find you a job by X time. It's impossible because there needs to be a role. So unless they're hiring you. Very hard to make that promise. So that's a huge red flag for anyone making these promises. For coaches, again, looking at their credibility, looking at what it is that you need. So if, say, you're, you know, you're meeting with people and, you know, the next stage in your career is to do more on the leadership aspect, right? Maybe you've kind of had not direct reports where, you know, you're approving their time off, but you've mentored folks. but you just need a little bit of help on kind of the people management, managing up as a leader, and kind of what it is when you're in those rooms and understanding that to get you up to speed.

Great. You figure out exactly what you need. Go find a coach to do that for you. I think it's a lot easier if you really need someone, if you're saying, hey, I'm really desperate, I want to have someone to help, flip it around and find someone versus having them come to you because the reality is there's a lot of AI slop and fake reachouts, which is a challenge. So that's the one side, right? So someone promising you X, Y, and Z, probably not real. Then there's the other side where it's me and it's, I get the same. I had the, had spoke to a candidate this morning, same feedback. And what has always stood out for me is I'm a real person. I talk to people like real people, but there are times when I'm working with clients huge big brands where it's under an NDA. And so when I'm reaching out, I can't necessarily tell you exactly who it is via email because this brand is, you know, doing this super confidential project. They've hired me to find them specific people that they can't do internally because it's that confidential. And so I always joke, take the call and hear what a recruiter has to say because it's real, then assess if is actually real because there was one instance where you can check my LinkedIn, the person actually posted about it and who the client was, which is a huge travel brand for an agency.

But when I had reached out to somebody else, they said, you know, this client doesn't have this role on their website. And I was like, no, they, they don't. That's why I'm here. I'm actually here to help them find, and this person was great and they missed out. And it wasn't until like 2 weeks ago when they saw the person that we actually hired post and say, oh my goodness, this is actually real. And I was like, yes, I'm, I'm real. I, I almost always tell people this is real. Let's have a conversation and I'm happy to talk more about it there. So it's hard because when you have real roles like I do, but when I'm reaching out, people then are hesitant because of all this slop and all of the fake jobs that are out there. So. You know, credibility, figuring out what type of recruiter or coach that it is. Then the next is what are they actually working on, right? And I'm very candid with candidates about what's real. I might say, hey, this is the specific search I'm working on right now. I'm working on 2 or 3 of these with this company and this company.

That's it. I do work with others, but I am not at this moment. And I think if a recruiter can't tell you exactly what it is and like you're not having an interview within a week with this actual company, it's fake. It's unfortunately fake and they're wasting your time. So it's being able to assess that and there's a bit of trust because I, again, good actor here, can't always share exactly what it is. And so it's being able to read between the lines, but To your point, Melissa, the messaging.

I've never had a no.

And the only other time is someone was kicking themselves in the foot because like, this felt real, but I just didn't hear the name of it. I'm like, it's 'cause I can't. And so understanding that aspect too, when companies are hiring me, it's because obviously there's a huge market. It's something special. It's something probably NDA. And so there's a bit of trust that you have to understand, but how they speak to you. Is the fourth part, is what's important there.

Well, you've almost given us like the BS checklist, right? Like it, you know, because if you have ever dealt with an executive recruiter like yourself, Chino, you understand the NDA component of it, but then you can go back and look at the validate the actual whoever it might be, the firm, right? So like Cappuccino, right? You, you can validate that. I love what you were talking about earlier too with the data. Like, we live in a time of data, and you shared your data. You shared, you know, your placement rate. You shared the referrals. You shared all that information. Time to fill. Like, you know, when you can share expectations, especially like some of these roles that are maybe at a higher level, they may take a couple months in order for you to get through the gauntlet of interviews, right? So I think that there is a, you know, like a kind of like this, what's the BS monitor of that? I've had some folks reach out to me directly on LinkedIn and I immediately go and check their profile. Who are they working for? Are they actually working for, and how long have they been working for the company that they are representing?

If it's the company specifically that has an opening or if it's, a recruiting firm or whatever. And there are some, you know, there's some old-time recruiter recruiting firms that everybody kind of knows their names in your industry. And you should really investigate those and make sure you understand, like, are these people actually working for them, right? But I do think, you know, like, if anything, if it feels too good to be true, right, it probably is. And I think that's where we talk about, Aaron, again, that power play of like when you're in desperation mode, you take whatever life ring is being thrown at you, kind of.

Yeah, and you don't always believe what's real either.

Right.

She, you know, you're incredibly talented and great at what you do. And, you know, in the same week that I would get approached with an actual recruiting opportunity from a recruiter that's looked at my background and understands what I do, which is kind of nuanced, you know, I'm multifunctional and I cross departments and I work inside the organization and outside. So you kind of, you know, from a marketing perspective, you kind of have to understand that about me as opposed to a plug-and-play engineer 2 to engineer 3 role, you know, but that it happens. But in the same week, I've also got one of those companies that says, we'll represent you as a candidate. And it's, here's a monthly fee up front. There's a 6-month commitment and it's a percentage of anything you book through us or elsewhere. And an email that says, you know, you want, you want to stay with clients, we'll get you, we're going to send out, I've had this multiple times, a million emails on your behalf. I mean, think about a million. Well, what, you know, play the percentage game. What would I do with a percentage of a million You know, prospects responded to me.

What's the quality of that? Not great. And again, like, to your point, sorry to cut you off there, but because I'm just like, ugh, no. Like, anyone that's asking you to pay for something, it's, it's real. And so it's not real. Like, there's no way in this market to do that. Like, it's, it's, it's not. Maybe 30 years ago. This is even like, I've been doing this for 13, 14 years now, right? I've been in the game for a long time behind the scenes. And again, going back to that point, Melissa and Aaron, asking your network who this is. Like, no one will know. Like, if you're just a layman person, you might not know who I am. But if you actually work in the back of those rooms when I'm working with these big agencies, I— we've stopped posting. I actually made a post last year. We've stopped posting our roles because we get inundated. So to be frank, this person who was like, I didn't really know you were real, because I don't really know. And then having actually spoke to someone They said, oh my God, Gina, respond to her message immediately.

They're like, ah, too late. It was a real job. So you can also just go back on kind of what their presence is because as much as I'm giving you the BS barometer, I would probably hit a flag kind of if you don't know me or if you don't do your research onto who I am and where I've been and kind of looking at the credibility there. right? So, you know, there is a part of that and I think there was a joke a few years ago where someone posted on LinkedIn, you know, have you ever looked at all of the archived messages that you just, that didn't come to your outbox that looked like spam? And I'm like, oh man, I could have been working at the head of Google or X, Y, and Z if I had only just looked at this ma— you know, whatever the, the company would be because it didn't feel real, so I didn't respond to it, but they were actually real roles at the end of it. So. There is a part for having the conversation. It's important to have this conversation because you don't actually know what is real.

Have the barometer up and a real recruiter will tell you. And I had to do that with two, literally two people who said, oh, thank you. Thank you.

Okay.

This even having this dialog with you, I know this is real. And again, here's, here's what it is. Again, behind the scenes, it's not posted anywhere, but here's the meeting or here's where I'm thinking about it here. How to think about this. It's up to you, right? And I'm not going to charge you for that because that's not what I do. That's the company's paying me to find them very specific people. But it is important to just ask, like, know who you're— there are industry recruiters that are there who've been there. Do your research.

That's so interesting to know because in a normal market, you know, you get approached by recruiters. It happens. And you evaluate, you know, maybe you want to move forward, maybe they want to move forward, maybe you go through the process, maybe you get hired, maybe you don't. But that happens, you know, it's just part of the course of a work week or, you know, every so often depending on your specialization. But isn't it, it's so interesting, isn't that a sign of the market we're in that there's skepticism and distrust because we're all worn down by these parasites and these other You know, there's just so much noise from these other companies that have sprung up that claim to know different, claim to know better. Probably a lot of people on the, you know, in the, in the looking for an opportunity have been burned maybe once, maybe twice, maybe 3 times because they're just looking for the hope. The hope is still there. They're looking for the company or the resource or the sage advice that's going to guide them through. These very turbulent times. So something real comes up. I, I just find it really fascinating that our, our, uh, our reflex is to just question everything, you know, as you should.

And yeah, it's, um, we're desensitized. We're absolutely desensitized. I've been on record for like, I think I've straddled my career. I was like a recruiter that hated recruiters, kind of joke about that all the time. One of my clients have said that because there's different ways to approach it. And I think people forgot, and sure, AI is here. You can kind of, I don't even use AI to screen people because so many people get left out. And we've had podcasts, and I'm sure we'll talk about episodes about this as well, but a good recruiter will be candid with you. And I can tell you, hey, this is what's happening. A no update update is important. Sometimes I'm waiting on the client. He was waiting on what's happening. And you know what? Maybe because of the political climate, their clients are waiting, which is what's happening. It was all uncertainty with a few in certain markets, right? And so I think it's important to understand that a good recruiter, a great, a good recruiter will, you know, maybe keep you up to date. A great recruiter will be real with you and will have those conversations with you of, this is when you should hear from me or what I'm expecting, right?

And I always tell my candidates, listen, if you don't hear back from me by next Wednesday, please Nudge me. I'm not ghosting you. I might be talking to 10 other people for other roles or whatever the case may be, but that's not what we do over here. I'm speaking to you because I care. And what's very interesting now in Ontario to combat that, because there were a lot of bad actors in Canada taking advantage of the immigration force coming here. And so, What they have done in Ontario is set up a recruitment license where as a recruiter, I need to pay the government to be able to function as a recruiter to combat all of the shitty recruiters and coaches out there who were scamming people. This is now the law in Ontario. I had to, you know, put my money down and tell them, hey, this is how I am, and hey, I actually only work on full-time roles where people pay me to find, you know, it's not temp and it's become such a problem that it's now become legal processes, not just in Ontario, something that it's gonna continue to, you'll see because of this very problem.

But the fix here is hoping that anyone listening that's a candidate is to understand what their BS monitor is. And it's okay that you have your backs up. Take a conversation. You never really know what's on the other end because again, if you do see a Chino or like Cappuccino in your inbox, it is real. I don't work on fake roles. I can give you that guarantee here.

I love your perspective, Chino. I love your perspective sharing, and thank you for sharing so clearly your point of view. I think one of the things that I do want to get back to though is, Erin, is this middleman and the power struggle. And the reason I say that is I feel blessed. I've worked my whole life. I've worked very hard to be where I'm at. So I am able to have relationships with headhunters and executive recruiters, right? Like Achino. Erin, I'm sure you the same. So this is something that we can navigate. You know, like we understand that like, yeah, I'll pay a headhunter. They pay, they they pay the company to find the right candidate to fill that role, right? We understand that's how that works because I've hired headhunters for me personally to help me fill roles that I had on my teams. But for the people that are, you know, the vast amount of workforce that has been laid off today, that's where I think they're gullible to the idea of these middleman types of things because they're not used to having a headhunter coming at them and saying, they're not used to having like Cappuccino in their inbox.

Let's just get real. They're used to, okay, I file for unemployment. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Indeed. I'm on built-in. I'm on all ladders. I'm on all the things trying to apply. I'm applying to 100 jobs a day and I'm hearing from 2. And then I'm getting in my LinkedIn box because I have the green banner up. I'm getting all these ideas of like, if you give us $10K or if you give us $5K, we can get you in front of Google and Meta and all, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, wow, yeah, I want to, I want to— it's not— it is, it's like, it's kind of like paying for, uh, pre-check, you know, or CLEAR. You're like, I'm trying to get to the front of the line because I know when I look at How many people have applied in the last 36 hours? It's over 500. They're all at the front of the line.

So, yeah, because you look at LinkedIn or you look at Reddit or anywhere and you see experiences of, I, I applied for 100, uh, there was an article I was reading this morning, 180 to 200 jobs, and then I stopped counting.

Right.

Um, and so you see that, maybe that's your own personal experience, or you see that you wake up and you see someone else saying that on LinkedIn and you're you know, a week and a half into your job search, that's panic mode.

Yeah. And so I don't want to calm people's fears. I mean, because I think that fear is real. I mean, I've had it myself, you know, I think it's real, but it's how you navigate that so that you can protect yourself because think about, you know, they're saying you're investing in you. By giving them $5,000, but like, if that $5,000 is going to help you live for the next 3 months, why would you give it to somebody on a promise?

That's not real, right? It's not real. And so I can't— I literally, I like, the whole time Liz has been— if anyone's listening, because I have been shaking my head, throwing up the X's, because it is not real. That is not a thing.

No one is—

you are— okay, great. So you gave them gave, you know, $5,000. What about the other 10 other 20 other people that gave them $5,000? You're in front of Google for what? What is it that Google wants from you? That does not make any sense. So my whole thing being on the other side of this, and like one of the few people who, you know, in Canada and the US, there's an Allies in Recruitment group that I'm a part of who have been combating this. We put something together for years talking about this. This has been a struggle the great recruiters have had to deal with, right? There's so many bad actors, but in this market and any other market in the future, someone's promising you they're gonna get you in front of this. You need to ask yourself why. What makes you different? You could be the best engineer in the world. Guess what? They probably are already hiring you. You've probably had an interview. It's not that you can't get in the back of the seat. What you need to do, what people need to do. So great, you're gonna get all these things in your— you need to get a coach for something.

Awesome. Do not let people come to you, go to them. If you weren't aware of this and someone comes up, again, explore, do your research, figure out the credibility is the first step. And if you actually feel like, hey, getting a bit of coaching here on how to present, or you know what, I'm I'm a fairly junior person. I'm intermediate. I don't really know how I'm trying to apply for senior roles. I need help on that. Awesome. There are genuine great coaches out there, but again, you will know that from the credibility. You will know that from asking them, hey, can you give me a referral of people who actually work with you? Not just what they say, because you can say anything. How is anyone going to validate that? Right?

Right.

Yeah.

And I love what you said because you've really opened up the doors to this is a real true fix. In this, in today's market, you need to use your direct contacts, right? Your network. So I mean, most all of us know someone who knows someone, if you don't know someone already that works at one of these companies, right? And or is part of an alumni group, right? Whether it's, you know, a school network, etc., etc. But direct outreach to a company, somebody that works there already or has worked there, is the most important networking that you can do because you can learn about, like, is this really an open role? Where are they in the process? Do you know the recruiter or talent manager? Do you know the hiring manager? Can you forward my resume to them? And And would you be open to having coffee with me because I'd love to talk to you about what it's like to work there?

Does not want to give it. That's not the advice. That's not the advice. That was the advice 5 years ago. Oh, sorry, Melissa. Oh, advice 5 years ago. Yes, that's helpful. Right now, again, look at how many, like, Block laid off so many people, and now the people that are there, they're told you cannot go and reach. Again, for someone, for a lot of places, huge big tech names, they would never know they're working with me. They would never know. And that is there, right? So what you need to do, right? Yes, do all of that. It's important. Talk to your network. That's the first thing you should always do regardless. But there's a, when everyone is doing that, it becomes really hard for the people that are there and they, they've stopped responding, right? If, if you've had 1,000 people there, right? If there's 3,000 people applying.

Don't put your burden on someone else, right?

Yes, reach out and again, you should reach out, But the way to actually get in is to speak to the recruiters, speak to not the HR people, it's the recruiters that are working behind the scenes. The problem is right now is there's a lot of people reaching out for this. I am not a recruiter that helps candidates find their role. I'm a recruiter that companies hire me to find them something great. That said, I have times in my calendar every week to speak to different candidates regardless. I try to make that time because that's what a great recruiter does. But understanding that there's things that are not going to ever be posted and you know who you want to talk to or have you think of your name first, you know, top of mind is that recruiter that's working behind the scenes. It's not the role that's posted. Yes, that's there. They usually have an internal team, but get to know who your recruiters are in that space. Try to understand, try to put yourself forward and keep yourself top of mind. Mind you, it is a lot. There's a lot of volume across the board, so there's only so much we can do.

But a great recruiter versus a good recruiter will tell you, this is what my capacity is right now. I can't have this conversation this second because I'm not actively working. On it, but I will think of you for this. Follow up with me in a month. I'll have something a little bit closer to this. They should be able to talk to you about what is actually going on with their roles. And sometimes that means not much, not much because of how the job market is. So there's that understanding. But if you can connect from that perspective, you're going to put yourself way ahead of anyone else that's just applying or only just looking at their network because their network is not a recruiter where we get the behind the scenes of everything for those that are doing it genuinely. And that's the kind of harsh reality of where we are.

Yeah, I think that's what I meant is like there's that direct connection that I think is missing when you, and especially like as you know, Chino, because you're in the business, but like that's why a middleman or a middle business doesn't even make sense because they're not, you know, they're, they're really not in direct contact with those recruiters. They're not sharing that type of relationship, which you can develop on your own, is what I think.

And, and, you know, exactly, Melissa. And just, I know I've like taken so much of the airspace because this is, this is my forte and like this is my whole expertise, but I have to say, you know, for us, and as recruiter, like, within like Cappuccino, we don't just work with anybody because I think too, the challenge with a lot of recruiters and coaches, as you said, if they're not actively in the role and are working with the hiring manager on a day-to-day, they might not know what's going on. So they might not know as much as you don't know. A great recruiter has completely buttoned down, knows the person knows the team, can talk to you about the job, can talk to you about the timelines of the job. I have fired clients in this market because they are not partners. I have something in my contract that says you need to get back to me within a week of interviewing someone because I don't wanna waste candidates' time. That's the difference between a great recruiter and a good one. You need to make sure you do your due diligence on who you are working with.

The same goes to coaches. Who are they actually working with? What is that relationship like too? Because people can say, oh, you know, I'm close with the founder. Are they? You'll know that really well from one conversation.

Yeah. If you, I love everything you're saying. If you run it through the logic test, you know, really how many respected corporations are signing exclusive deals with companies that are a year or two old and saying, Yes, please be another cog in this, in this already complex system. Please be a gatekeeper. Um, I love that you're charging candidates for the privilege of going through this process. Please profit off that. Like, is that— that's not a thing, right?

It's not a thing. No one is charging you, no matter how they present it. Exactly. Like, it's again, like, going back to, like, you know, I've only set up my See, I've been doing this for 13 years under myself for a long time. I rebranded, so technically I don't hit the more than 2 years because I just rebranded last year, but I've been doing this for 13 years, so there's that. But I will never, I'm never charging a candidate. That is not ever what I would do. I'm not wasting a candidate's time. I will fire a client if they are not thinking of the candidate experience in mind, and that is what a great recruiter is versus just a good one or a bad actor. And you will know that from the second you speak to them. So do your due diligence on who they are, figure out what their relationship is with the team. Is this just a transactional? I don't do transact. I will say no to a role. I don't do, there's 1,000 recruiters. I only work exclusively. We've stopped putting our roles on LinkedIn. I stopped even posting on LinkedIn because I get inundated and it's impossible for me to do a great job with candidate experience in mind.

There are not many recruiters that do this. I can literally name maybe 10 in the world. Figure out who you're working with, make sure they have something to back it up, ask around and understand their relationship to the client. There's never, ever, ever a time where a recruiter is charging you to, for you to be on their roster. That is insane. That is fraudulent. It's not, that's, it's a no. So hands up. Sorry for stealing the airspace, but it's a hard no for me.

No. And I, you know, I appreciate that Canada at least is putting more guardrails around it. And it sounds like we're a step behind, you know, in, uh, cuz unfortunately, you know, there's, there's not a universal recruiter degree certification type of thing. So, just like anyone who was let go yesterday can be a consultant. Anyone who decides they're in the recruiting space can be a recruiter, right? Or start a directory of candidates that they charge for. Or there's not, you know, really in Canada, there is increasingly, but you could be a wedding photographer tomorrow if you want to. You can go into marketing tomorrow. You can become a podcaster, let's face it, tomorrow, you know, So there's, but there's no, not real oversight. So I think, you know, if we're a step behind, that just means that it's underway or there's something coming down where someone's gotta take a good hard look at this labor market imbalance. Today's headline, which there'll be many more, but you know, between that, between today and when this airs is Morgan Stanley just shed 2,500 jobs. So that's 2,500 candidates on the market. You know, you're not gonna reach out to each one or have a moment for each one, unfortunately.

but welcome to, you know, now they're consultants, now they're competing with one another. We used to be coworkers. So, you know, we've gotta figure out how to rewrite these rules of engagement and how to realign some of the power imbalance and give candidates something to, you know, to fight for that's worth fighting for.

Yeah, no, I agree. And just on that, like, there are good actors there and we have a collective of other recruiters like me who are trying to work on that exactly. On the US side and as well through the rest of Canada because it's become a really big problem. And I think again, for companies as well, they're losing out on talent when no one's responding, or if it's, you know, a volume thing where you're getting 1,000 applicants, they're not being able to see that. So you wanna work with recruiters that make you also look good and have your brand, um, shine through because Because again, it's not a good look if you're working with a recruiter that just ghosts or doesn't respond or doesn't— is not human and doesn't actually engage the top talent. Like you said, Melissa, it was the message, it was how they approached, it was thoughtful. If you're working with a recruiter now in this market, if they don't have candidate experience top of mind, if you've not made a commitment to actually make sure that this recruiter is successful so that you're successful, you shouldn't be working with the recruiter, period.

End of the story, right? When we're talking about full-term searches, full-time searches with freelance, again, you need to just do your assessment. Sometimes it is just a numbers game. It's timing, it's availabilities. Keep putting your name out there in front of these recruiters, and if you feel like you need to be coached on something, great. Figure out exactly what, and you approach them, right? Do your due diligence. Don't have— there's never a time you should be paying anybody at this stage unless it's something you specifically need and seek.

Okay. Well, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll start with you. We're gonna fix this. Um, since you're actually putting measures into place to fix this and forming your own coalitions and things. So, all right, so take your credit card out if you are looking, you are the one initiating, you're seeking to upskill, there's someone that has something valuable that you need to know, they have the reviews and expertise behind them, they're credible, verified, all those things, and let's disconnect it from the promise of employment.

Right?

They're there to teach you something. They're there to give you a skill. Anyone who says, give me your money and we will, you know, I know this market better than you. I'm a CEO whisperer. I've got a shortcut. We're, you know, we're living the yacht life over here at our company 'cause we have so many people like you, run the other way. Right? And if you are, well, let's, we'll fix, but if, let's just say you're 3, you know, looking at the 6-month for a lot of people, that's their experience and it could be even longer. You're 3 months in, let's build this into our fix, but what do you do through, you know, through, you're doing all the things, you're 3 months in, you spent a little bit to get some outside expertise, you learn something, you're better off than you were. What do you do different? You're still hitting a wall.

You speak to the recruiters in the room that you know, and you try to figure out what's happening behind the scenes because there's a lot happening behind the scenes. And as much as we keep hearing these sensationalized, you know, news coverages of this person has laid off X amount of people and it's going to continue to happen. As we talked in the past episode, this is a trend. You know what they don't talk about is how busy I've been because of all the companies that have been hiring. I don't post that anywhere. So you're not going to hear those stories. They're far and fewer in between, but they are there. Keep going, keep going, keep going. It does become a numbers game, but you know what helps? When you streamline those numbers and you figure out exactly what it is that you wanna do and where you wanna be and you target that. You gotta look at it almost like, you know, I think taking a sales approach even to how you sell yourself to companies is really important. Partner with people you trust and that you know and have credibility and keep going. It will happen.

There is hiring happening despite what you're hearing on the news.

Yeah, right. Well, they, they say that there's 55% fewer job cuts in February than there were before. So that's, you know, that, but that's partly because there were such dramatic job cuts. That it's okay, good. Well, that's a good number, I guess. But, you know, I'm an eternal optimist. I think we'll see some economic reversals over the course of this year. And so part of that, you know, you're saying patience is one as a candidate. Keep making yourself the best candidate you can be by upskilling, by pursuing resources yourself, by being the one to initiate those interactions, and by vetting and validating and verifying the companies you trust and the resources you work with. And if you're a recruiter, obviously be one who cares about candidates, be one that knows your stuff, be ethical, and don't pretend to be something you're not, that you have some, you know, secret handshake deal with a company that we all know doesn't exist. Do away with the smoke and mirrors, don't be a parasite, especially don't take advantage of vulnerable people, that have, you know, are pretty, are already beating themselves down for just being, you know, seeking employment in this market.

Go, go away. I will keep having these conversations with you just 'cause I find it amusing and I hope that maybe I retrain your behavior a little bit. Probably won't happen, but you know, I'll have it out with anybody that is adamant that their own financial success and Fast track to revenue trajectory is an indicator that they're doing anything for anybody. They're not. So approach me. I will have those conversations, but I don't want to. I want you to go away. If we do all that, Chino, um, did we fix this situation?

I think we have, uh, people, candidates need to understand, you know, there is change happening. There are good actors here that are actually fighting for your experience. I do think based on all of the kind of tips and the playbook, as one may say, of how to kind of spot the BS is going to be important. That's on you. Don't let anybody take your money that's hard earned. And if they're going to take your money, you need to know it's going to actually help you with whatever is next. And that means coaching and skilling up for things that you actually need, not what someone's putting in your mind. and great recruiters are out there. So do take the call and drill them if you need to. And a great recruiter will be able to come back and, you know, give you that confidence to move forward. Otherwise, like those two candidates who I'm sure if you're listening, you know who you are, and we joke about it now because I reached out to get them, they're like, ooh, Chino's in the inbox. There are like Cappuccinos in the world. Not everybody's a bad actor. And just remember that too, lean on the people that you know, and trust.

Yeah. Good. Okay. And if you hear from Chino, that's like gold, like pay attention to that.

Yeah. Call me, Chino.

Uh, Melissa, did we fix this?

I think we did. And I think the biggest thing that we've, we've really uncovered here is you need to trust yourself. You know, the BS filter is your own. We, most of us know when it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true. So use your own methods of due diligence because it matters. Do your research. It's a strategy for you to figure out how to get gainfully employed again. So do the things, do all the hard work, create that network that you have let kind of go by the wayside. Figure out what are you passionate about. Get in those industry discussions and networks. There's a lot of free things that you can participate in, lunch and learns, and there's a lot of live feeds on LinkedIn and things like that in your industry. And start that networking, start those connections like Chino said. It's so important that it's direct and it's real and it's not based in fear. And so, give yourself grace, but most importantly, trust yourself and trust that you know what's best for yourself. And then I think You will find those right opportunities, find those great partnerships and those advocates for you, but you've got to be your best advocate yourself.

So you really need to know and understand what your situation is, and it's okay to be scared. Yeah. It's, it's okay.

Yeah, I'm with you, Melissa. Well, that's going to do it for this episode of We Fixed It, You're Welcome to everyone out there navigating this crazy job market we've been talking about. Trust your instincts and remember the right opportunities are out there and they don't involve intimidation or pressure. And they're probably not going to be ones you pay for. If you get approached by a service or company that offers to help and payment is involved, just stop and think about who's getting the better end of that deal. It's probably them. Melissa and Chino, I think we did some good here. Well done. Thank you. To our new listeners, our devoted listeners, our Fixaholics, if you enjoyed the conversation, Please share it with someone else who needs to hear this. Chances are, you know, at least one person that is in this very situation that will benefit from this conversation. For everyone looking for their next, we know it can be a journey. Just know that we are in your corner. We think you're awesome. Keep keeping on and we will see you next time. We hope you enjoyed this episode of We Fixed It, You're Welcome.

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