Transcript of The Poetic Wealth of Nikki Giovanni

I'm Ayesha Rasco, and this is a Sunday story from Up First. I always like summer best. You can eat fresh corn from daddy's garden, and okra, and greens, and cabbage and lots of barbecue and buttermilk and homemade ice cream at the church picnic. These are the words of the great African These are the words of the great African American poet Nikki Giovanni from her poem, Knoxville, Tennessee. She died earlier this week at the age of 81.

Nikki Giovanni was called many things, the poet of the Black revolution, activist, spoken word artist, cultural icon, children's book author, professor, Christian, radiant voice of black joy and struggle. To me, she was also an unapologetic truth teller. And some of her words and poems, I I could feel them at a molecular level. That's how much I related to them. Giovanni grew up with an alcoholic, abusive father in a house without indoor plumbing.

And while she was never afraid to explore those hardships in her poetry, she also celebrated what was beautiful about community, food, and family. Earlier this year, my colleague and host of the podcast, Wild Card, Rachel Martin, spoke to Nikki Giovanni. Today, we bring you this incredible conversation.

Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind? No. Wow. I'm surprised by that answer.

No. Because it gets you caught up in your life and that's not what you're like. Your life is not about your life. Life is about your duty.

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card 1 through 3, questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. My guest this week is poet Nikki Giovanni.

When you look at the stars and then you think about the other life forms, you think, well, there is something else. I can't quit now. There is something else.

There are so many words I could use to describe my guest today. Poet, revolutionary, queer icon, feminist, space enthusiast, mother and grandmother, legend, Nikki Giovanni is all those things. But she is also a woman who figured out really early that she didn't have to apologize to anyone for who she was or for what she wanted from her life. She can write poems that look directly at all the pain and hatred in the world and she can write children's books about feeling safe and loved. She can also conjure what it will look like when humans set up shop on Mars and black women lead the way.

Nikki Giovanni has just been doing it her own way all along and writing it down so the rest of us can start to see beyond ourselves and Wildcard. I'm so glad you're here.

Oh, thanks, Rachel. I'm glad to be here.

So Yeah. I understand you turned 81 on June 7th. Am I right?

81. I couldn't believe I I can't believe it. And, you know, I used to say all the time, you know, I really liked old age. It was a good idea. But, 80 really kicked my butt.

And I'm hoping that that 81 is a lot better. I just got out of the hospital about a week ago. I, was just I'm just old and I was, dehydrated, and I had to go to London twice. And I like London, but flying back and forth is, I could I could've swim, you know, I would've been better off. So There you go.

There you go. So are you a person who enjoys a good birthday party? Did you have 1?

0, I I I am not and, I did. I just haven't no. You know, you parties are are work no matter what anybody says, but, we played card we played Bidwist. I have a Bidwist group and we played I

don't know what that is. That's a card game?

It's it's like bridge only Okay. For more intelligence. If you do say We're gonna get sales. We're gonna get letters on that 1. And, my dear friend whom I love so much, Jovan Jackson, came down and Jovan doesn't go any place without his saxophone.

So he he plays sax, he plays dinner sax. And so, that was very nice because there was no work. I didn't have to do. And I I mean it, but Oh, good birthday. And I yeah.

I was glad to be out of the hospital and I was glad to be with friends and I didn't have to get dressed. I did shower, but I didn't have to be dressed.

I get it. I get it. Yeah. I'm so glad you're out of the hospital. I'm glad that you that you're doing better.

Are you a game person? What do you think about this?

Oh, I love games. You do? Oh, sure. The Weakest Link, Jeopardy, The Wall. Yeah.

Alright. I'm into it. So let me explain how this is gonna go. Okay? Okay.

I've got a deck of cards in front of me, and each 1 has a question on it that I would love for you to answer. I'm gonna hold up only 3 cards at a time, and then you, Nikki, are gonna choose 1 at random to answer. Okay? Mhmm. There are 2 rules.

You get 1 skip. If you use your skip, I will swap in another question from the deck. Okay? And rule number 2, you get 1 flip. So you could put me on the spot and ask me to answer 1 of the questions before you do.

And we're breaking it up into 3 rounds. Okay? Memories, insights, and beliefs with a few questions in each round. And because it's a game, there's a prize when you make it to the end.

Ginger cookies. Ginger cookie. How did you know? Oh, I wish I'd made you fresh ginger cookies. I love ginger cookies.

Soft kind or crispy? Soft. Soft. Always soft.

Like my grandmother.

It's not ginger cookies. I should just tell you right now so you can emotionally compare.

I'm leaving. I'll see you later, ma'am.

Okay. So this is the memories round. 3 cards to choose from. 1, 2, or 3. Of course, 2.

Of course, 2. You said that, like, everybody knows it's 2. It's the best number.

Well, I'm a I'm a baby sister, so I'm number 2.

I get it. Okay. Were you ever obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid?

Yes. I wanted to know why Mars was red. And my obsession was that there was a war on Mars and that they had developed atomic energy so that Mars burned itself up. And as I lay in bed for most of my life actually to look out the window, I have seen Mars which is why I talk about it a lot. And I would like to go to Mars because I think that as a black woman, my sisters and I could build a community.

And I I I love that you have planted that idea in our collective consciousness and have written a lot about it. When did Mars come into your head? Do you remember, like, as a kid? Like, what how how did you even I I didn't think about Mars as a kid. How did you how did it capture your imagination?

I'm a baby sister. I shared a bedroom with my big sister. She wanted the bed by the wall. I don't know why, but that gave me the bed by the window. And so I would look out the window and and watch the stars and the stars haven't changed.

So you have to ask yourself, what are they telling us? What what am I learning?

Did fixing your gaze upward make you feel safer? I mean, you had a tough home life. You've talked and written a lot about that. Did did thinking about the planets, the cosmos, the universe, did that help you escape the whatever was going on at home?

Well, my parents had what I would call in in nice words, troubled marriage, and what Space let me know is that this could not be the end. And, thank thank God I did have a grandmother, and I went ultimately to live with my with my grandmother. But, when you you start to you look at the stars and then you think about the other life forms and you think, well, there is something else that, I can't quit now. There is something else.

3 new cards. Okay. Same drill. You pick 1, 2, or 3.

I guess I should take 1.

Okay. Let's do 1. What's something you thought was normal about your childhood that you now realize was unusual?

Probably the most unusual thing about my childhood was that I recognized that my parents' marriage was not my business because it was unpleasant. Saturday night at 11 o'clock, I was listening to my father beat my mother. So that's unpleasant. But you also recognize it has nothing to do with you. It was none of my business and I didn't believe Ozzie and Harriet or father knows best.

I didn't believe any of that. I still don't think that there's such a thing as a happy family.

Because that was your norm. So you assumed that that all families to some degree were broken in that way.

Yeah. They're crazy. And so the best thing you can do, sometimes you need to walk away. You need to find friends and get rid of the family because the family drive you crazy. Mhmm.

Just because you happen to be born doesn't make them kin to you. You make your own families, what I guess I'm saying. Yeah. I recommend dogs. But they're faithful, they're they're intelligent, and they always love you.

You walk into the house, the dog is always happy to see you.

We've got to take a quick break. But when we come back, I ask Nikki if she is afraid of anything. And her answer may surprise you.

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Now we move into the 2nd round. Oh. The insights round. This is stuff you're learning now, stuff you're working through now. Okay.

3 new cards. 1, 2, or 3. Remember, you have a skip and a flip. You don't have to use them. 1, 2, or 3.

Well, let's let's go for 2 again.

Okay. What emotion do you understand better than all the others? Patience.

I'm incredibly patient. It takes a lot to really push me.

Yeah. Where does that come from?

Well, I don't know. I'm the baby sister of 2, so that teaches you, 1, you you're always watching your big sister because they're always so wonderful. They're they're prettier, they're more intelligent, everything. And so you always In your

mind, yes.

You know, and you wanna say, well, 1 day I'll grow up or whatever. But most of my friends are older. I have, very few friends who are are my age. I'm 80. We were I'm 81.

Right. It's a long life already, Nikki. 81. And most of your friends are older than that. Some good longevity.

Well, I'm I'm I'm open. That aunt Sarah, who who was, my mother's, great aunt, but, and nobody liked Sarah, by the way. She was a a despicable person, but she lived to be a 100. So I do want that gene that that lets you live to be a 100. I think it'd be interesting to see what's happening in a 100.

My kids asked me that recently, if I wanted to, you know, not just to a 100, but, like, would I wanna live forever? And then, you know, that's an interesting question to talk about with kids and how having a finite end to life sometimes creates appreciation because you think things are gonna end. You know? But I said I would I would I would do it with some caveats. I just want my health.

I just want I want my body to still to still work. I don't want things falling apart on me.

But things are gonna fall apart, and so that's, again, 1 of the things that, you can hear in my breathing and speak out of the pneumonia. Oh, and that'll go away. This will get well, but, I'm not afraid of, you know, being blind. I have a friend who's losing her sight and, it makes her very uncomfortable. I think what an opportunity to now see the world in a different way.

I mean, look at look at Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder. So you say, well, they couldn't see but look at what they created. So obviously, they saw something. And I'm not afraid. As I said, 80 kicked my butt.

I mean, I if if it could be wrong with me, it was wrong with me, you know. And I was thinking, okay, well, you know, I had cancer, I had lung cancer and I had breast cancer And I said, whatever it happens, I don't wanna read. I don't wanna be sitting well, I'll be sitting in hell because I don't think I'm going to heaven. But I don't wanna be sitting in hell and they say she fought cancer for, you know, 20 years. I'm not fighting any disease.

I'm learning to live with it.

Yeah.

And I want the disease to live with me. So every morning that I wake up, me and cancer, we're in good shape and I say, well, let's take a shower.

Go about our day. Let's do our life.

Yeah. And 1 day we won't And then that means that I'll be transitioned. I'll be in another place. And that's what, you know, I've talked about my grandmother, but that's what I think about about grandmother, about sister Althea who was my 8th grade teacher and I loved her so much. But I don't think they're they're not dead because they will never be forgotten for me and I find myself, if I'm not careful and sometimes even if I am talking to them or they're talking to me, you know, you're you're never alone when you have Yeah.

Somebody like that around you.

Yeah. Are you afraid of anything?

Well, I'm I'm very cautious around ostrich when I was on, you know

Nikki, what are you talking about?

Well, they

are. You're afraid of ostriches?

Well, yeah. You ever been on safari? They are mean. You no. They are mean and that kick will kill you.

Ask a lion if you had to put a lion against an ostrich. The lion the lion is gone. That's why you don't see lions.

Like not where I thought we were gonna go. Oh. No. I like it. I like it.

I mean, it's real. That that is your fear, the ostrich. Yes.

And You have to be very careful around them. I'm not afraid of lions because lions are an intelligent being that unless you're threatening them, they're not gonna bother you.

Right.

But, the only ostriches I've had in relation, you know, it's been unpleasant and I'm lucky that that they didn't get to me or they would've killed Thomas and my son and I on on safari. You have to be careful around ostriches. People need to know that.

That is a good and unexpected public service announcement that you have provided, Nikki Giovanni. Okay. Next question. 3 more cards. 1, 2, or 3.

Okay. Let's do 3. 3.

In what ways do you choose to find joy?

Cooking. Cooking. I love to cook. Do you? I really do.

It's I cooked with my grandmother and, my mother could cook but not as well as my grandmother and I didn't cook with mommy, I watched mommy cook, but I cooked with grandmother and I would be the 1 she she used to be the 1, I hope nobody's upset, but, you know, you go and get the chicken. We lived in in Knoxville and so you have In Tennessee. Yeah. Yeah. You could go to chicken.

Chicken was unfortunately for the chicken alive and so grandmother would ring its neck and then I would be the 1 to have to pluck it and I learned to pluck the chicken, but I also learned to cook chitlins because I learned to turn the the, the chitlins or your intestines. Yeah. I learned yeah. Turn them inside out and pull the fat out, but I also learned to break string beans and to do when you do that, you wanna pull the string out. So I love every every time I'm cooking something, I'm thinking about grandmother and how she did it and what Oh, I

love that.

You know, it's like she's with me. Yeah. It's like it, you know, but I do. It makes it always makes me happy and, I I like other people's cooking sometime, but mostly, if I have my way, I do my own.

You said that sometimes you catch yourself or maybe it's not catching yourself, just sometimes you do, just talk out loud to your mom or your your grandmother. Does it happen when you're cooking?

I don't know if it if I'm talking out loud so much as remembering. Yeah. You know, and you go and, I made some lamb chops that I have to tell you were incredible and I was trying to remember what what it was that grandmother did. It was grandmother's ham and I remembered, oh, it was she put a little cinnamon. And so put a little cinnamon and a little apple vinegar.

Yes.

Oh, god. They were so good. I thought, you know, and I didn't I don't think I said aloud to grandmother, you know, look what I've done. But, you know, it's 1 of those, like, I didn't share. I I have people.

You stated it for yourself. I didn't. Yeah. You didn't invite people. They should go get somebody else.

I'm gonna go to go to Wendy's.

We've got another quick break. But when we come back, Nikki tells me about her belief system.

Well, I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there's so many fools out there, but I am a Christian.

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So now this is the beliefs round. Beliefs. 1,

2, 3. Okay. 3. 3.

Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind? No. Wow. I'm surprised by that answer. Yeah.

No. Because it gets you caught up in your life, and that's not what you're your life is not about your life. Your life is about your duty. And so, no, I don't think about it. You know?

Have you seen people get too caught up in preemptively analyzing their legacy?

Oh, I've seen a lot. As as I know, I know a lot of famous people in there. Oh, you know, I wonder what my stamp would look like. I I'll be dead till it doesn't no. I'm serious.

Someone did not say that

to you? Yeah.

Oh, wow.

And so you just let no. No. I'm I'm just glad when me and cancer wake up, and now when me and cancer and pneumonia wake up. And 1 day we won't. And I don't know.

Maybe I'll be sad, maybe not. I don't know. It's it's interesting. My friend Toni Morrison, whom I do and still do love so very much, and my favorite Toni Morrison, among other things, is Sula. And when Sula is dying, she says, oh, wait till I tell Nell because Nell is her best friend.

And she's wait till I tell Nell. It doesn't hurt. Wait till I tell Nell.

Let me ask this question a different way then though. I get what you're saying that you don't you don't wanna get wrapped up in your ego. You don't wanna think about, you know, I'm so important. People gonna remember me. What are they gonna write on my tombstone?

What are they gonna what are all the great accolades are gonna give me? But are there moments when you think back on on your life and and allow yourself moments to feel proud?

Oh, I I there are moments that I feel proud because I've worked hard. And I think, the word that means, as you probably also have heard in this conversation, a lot to me is duty. Yeah. And when I went to, the opening of the African American Museum in DC, Yeah. You go around and around.

I certainly recommend anybody doing it. And I had forgotten because a lot of those things I don't handle and I'm not interested in. I forgot we gave permission to use, my poetry and we gave permission to use my it's not something if you start paying attention to that, you'd be crazy. Yeah. And when I turned to the right, there was a photograph of me.

And I just automatically, it brings tears to my eyes. I automatically just turn to over my shoulder to my left to say, look grandmother, I did my duty. And Yeah. I I And it still amazes me that I I did I mean, I just It's like she was there. I did my duty.

And that that's what matters to me.

That's beautiful. This is the last 1. Okay. Okay. Last question.

1, 2, or 3.

Let's go 2 again.

What belief helps you make sense of the world?

Well, I I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there's so many fools out there, but I am a Christian and, I think Jesus is a really interesting guy. I really am fascinated by the way he conducted his life. And I think 90% of all black women you would run into are Christians. We believe Mhmm. That he may not come.

There's an expression that black women have, and and I share that expression. He may not come when you called, but he always comes on time. So we've learned to wait on the Lord, and I think that that's the most important thing.

Do you pray?

Oh, no. No. None of none of that. No. No.

So how does that seldom go to church.

I mean Don't go to church. No. Don't pray, but there's still something about Jesus, the true God, a Christian God who you're into.

Well, he's a very interesting guy. And, of course, when he did come from the

tomb Lots of interesting guys, Nikki, but, like No. They're not.

Let's face that 1. But you know when he came out of the tomb, he went to Mary Magdalene. So the first thing he went to was a black woman. So you have to appreciate that and I think that what he said to her was, you know, I've got to go. I've got things to do, but you call me.

I'll be there, which is wait on the Lord. And all of the black women I know believe that, and it made sense to me. You may as well. He'll come when you call. That's why I have patience.

You know, no question about it. You know, you wait you want you you want the Lord to do so, but I'm not asking for, you know, lottery numbers. You know, you know, you know that and I'm not asking for Do Jesus help me win this super lotto? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. None of that. Please let me get well, you know. I don't, you know, I'm worried about this cancer. So I didn't I didn't ask for any of that, because that's a foolish thing to ask for.

What what you're asking for is let me continue my life of duty with grace, and that's all. If I can gracefully do what I have to do, I'm happy.

Do you think there's such a thing as heaven, Nikki? Mhmm.

There's a heaven and my grandmother's sitting up there. I'm going to hell because I hate my father and I'm gonna I'm gonna sit down and tell him why. But, I'm sure grandmother and mommy will, you know, talk to Jesus or God whoever's there. You know, let her come up and visit, you know, and everybody knows I like champagne so I'm sure they'll have a glass of champagne and we'll sit there and talk to me. Well, you gotta go now.

You've been here for 2 days, you know. You know.

Do you actually think that? What do you

It doesn't matter what I actually

It doesn't matter.

What matters is what gets me through the next day.

Well, you won the game, Nikki. So the prize, alas, is not ginger cookies. Oh. I know. It is a trip in our memory time machine.

Yep. So, as your prize, you get to revisit 1 moment from your past that you would not change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger a little longer in. What moment do you choose?

That that's that's not only hard, but it's it's personal. And so I know what I would, but it's none of your business.

Are you I want you to be in it now, though. Can you go there now in your mind?

I go there. I know I go there quite a bit. You do. You don't know me because I need

me to take you there.

Yeah. No. I've I've been, you know, I haven't been, well right now. I'm getting better, but I haven't been well. And so I I stay in that spot right now and, it works.

My old ladies come through. You know, no matter what's going on, my old ladies are I mean, I'm in the hospital. To me, I love hospitals because they're grandmothers, you know, and they come in the morning and they say, how's my baby doing today? But it's like all of these, not all, but a couple of old ladies that I've really loved and they're right there. They say, you know, you'll be alright.

Don't worry about it.

Well, you don't owe me anything. You don't have to take me to your moment. But I'm glad that you you can go there easily these days.

Yeah. They're with me. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it was my great pleasure to get to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this.

Oh, thank you. I hope I didn't sound too crazy but life was a good idea and Yeah. Wait till you get to be 70. You're gonna love it.

Nikki Giovanni, poet, author, revolutionary, amazing human. Thank you so much for talking with me. Thank you. If you wanna hear more from Nikki Giovanni, we've got a bonus question you can hear by signing up for Wildcard Plus. I ask her what her thoughts are on marriage.

Well, first of all, it takes patience, of which I have a lot. And secondly, well, it's a good tax write up by my way. Oh, Nikki.

You'll also hear Ted Danson talk about adjusting to the world of adult responsibility, and you'll hear my reflections on how those conversations affect me personally. Wildcard Plus is the best way to support our show and support public radio at the same time. Go to plus.npr.org/ wildcard to join today.

Make sure to follow NPR's Wildcard podcast wherever you listen. This episode of Wildcard was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact checked by Barclay Walsh and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday story team includes Andrew Mambo, Justine Yan, Jenny Schmidt, and Liana Simstrom. I'm Ayesha Rasco, and this is a Sunday story from Up First.

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