Transcript of The Betrayal of Trans Troops New

I'm Ayesha Rascoe, and this is The Sunday Story, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. Not long ago, on an unseasonably warm January afternoon in Washington, D.C., NPR's Lauren Hodges attended a retirement ceremony for 5 service members who are being forcibly separated from the military.

Thank you for being here to honor 5 extraordinary service members whose combined service exceeds 120 years. We gather today to recognize Colonel Bree Fram, United States Air Force, Commander Blake Dreman, United States Navy, Lieutenant Colonel Aaron Grasek.

As part of their removal, these former service members were not allowed to wear their uniforms. Instead, to the left of the stage, a table of mannequins were dressed in the retirees' uniforms. From Army green to Navy blue, decorated with pins and medals, along with a pair of well-worn boots.

This ceremony is unprecedented, not because their careers fell short in any way, but because they shined so brightly in the military that cast them aside as unworthy.

71-year-old retired 4-star General Stanley McChrystal arrived in a suit and tie to preside over the ceremony. he walked up to the microphone.

First off, we shouldn't be here.

This was not a normal ceremony. These service members were being separated because they're transgender. Today on the Sunday Story, we take a closer look at how the Trump administration is using medical records to remove thousands of transgender troops, a part of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's anti-DEI push, and we'll talk about how this effort may be distracting from mission readiness. We'll be right back. I'm Ayesha Rascoe, and this is The Sunday Story. We're joined now by NPR producer Lauren Hodges, who's been reporting on the Trump administration's effort to remove all transgender troops. Lauren, welcome.

Thank you. Hi.

So, Lauren, we started this story at a retirement ceremony for transgender troops, and we heard a retired 4-star general say we shouldn't be here. So how did we get here?

Well, let's take a quick trip through time, since what's happening now does have these echoes of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, the policy implemented in 1994 under then-President Bill Clinton. And many are going to remember that Don't Ask, Don't Tell meant if you're gay gay, lesbian, bisexual, you were allowed to serve in the military but not openly. Now, at the time, some saw the don't ask part of this policy as mildly progressive because it also meant that military personnel couldn't harass or inquire about anyone's sexual orientation. So that was a change, but troops were forced to serve in the closet. It was a culture of silence, and when President George W. Bush took office, he left this policy in place.

But, and didn't President Obama end Don't Ask, Don't Tell?

Yeah, he did. In 2010, President Barack Obama signed a bill to repeal the law.

So this morning, I am proud to sign a law that will bring an end to Don't Ask, Don't Tell, which paved the way for gay, lesbian, bisexual troops to serve openly. No longer will our country be denied the service of thousands of patriotic Americans who were forced to leave the military regardless of their skills, no matter their bravery or their zeal, no matter their years of exemplary performance, because they happen to be gay.

But trans troops weren't specifically protected in Obama's new law. Recognition for them came later and gradually, in stages. In 2016, this pivotal study came from Rand Corporation's National Defense Research Institute This is a global policy think tank. Among other things, this study looked at whether a trans military population affected mission readiness and unit cohesion, and the study found it would have, quote, minimal likely impact. So the Obama administration announced in June of that year that transgender individuals could serve openly, but that policy was pretty short-lived because only a few months later, Donald Trump was elected president.

Okay, so when Trump took office in 2017, what did he do?

Well, a few months after Trump was sworn into office, he tweeted that transgender people would be banned from serving the military, calling it, quote, disruptive, and citing tremendous medical costs. That statement doesn't hold up mathematically, by the way. Transgender care costs the Pentagon a pretty small percentage of personnel medical budget. But ultimately, in March of 2018, Trump issued a memorandum giving trans service members already serving a tough choice. They either had to serve under their gender assigned at birth, which for many of these people meant going back in the closet. Some had already transitioned. It was just not an option. Or they could leave the service altogether. But there was this short window offered. If they went to a military doctor by April 2019 and got an official diagnosis for something called gender dysphoria, they could stay and they could serve openly.

Well, remind listeners what gender dysphoria is.

Gender dysphoria is defined as a marked incongruence between one's expressed or experienced gender and their assigned gender. But getting a doctor to make this diagnosis for military service didn't sit well with a lot of people. Some felt like it didn't apply to their situation. For example, if you're trans and you've already transitioned, you've already received the treatment for gender dysphoria. So you may have had it at one point, but not anymore. You've been treated for it. But there wasn't room for any of these gray areas here. Trans people were sort of seen by the administration as a monolith, and all service members who wanted to keep their jobs had I had to go get this diagnosis.

Okay, so, so the trade-off was either go back in the closet or get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which would allow you to continue serving openly. How many people went and got this diagnosis?

Well, it's hard to know the numbers for sure because they're medical records. There are strict privacy issues around that. But what we do know is that back in May 2025, the Defense Department said it had about 4,000 active duty transgender service members. So these are the people they have on file, but we don't actually know how many went and got the diagnosis at that time. But let me introduce one person whose story I've been following for years. I met her in 2019, right before that window for diagnosis appointments closed. She was telling me she had mixed feelings about going to get this diagnosis. This is Colonel Brie Fram.

What held me back for the longest time from getting the diagnosis is you must have clinically significant distress. And the thought of going to someone saying you're clinically distressed and in some way incapable of doing something was really painful because it never affected my ability to do my job in any way. But having that on a medical record is still scary.

Bree wasn't sure she was ready to transition just yet. She had very recently come out to her family, and she was hoping to sort of take her time with this, not only for her own sake, but for her wife's sake and her kids' sake. She wanted some more time to come out and adjust to this new identity and give others time to adjust to this new identity.

Being put on the clock was awful. You need to make the decision right now about where you might be in the future.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds extremely stressful.

Yeah, but of course the alternative is also really stressful—to lose her job. And she had been in the Air Force for a long time. She joined after 9/11, deployed during the Iraq War, and she eventually joined the Space Force as an astronautical engineer. She's literally a rocket scientist. This is her career. The other option was to go back into the closet and try to stay hidden while also trying to focus on her work. And she says that also seemed just impossible. So even though she wasn't sure about all this, Brie ended up going to the doctor to get the diagnosis. And despite all this pressure and anxiety, she says she tried to focus on the positive.

The ability to serve openly is an amazing one because you can bring your whole self to work.

So it was behind her for now, she thought, and she could just focus on her job. But something about the administration's tone, the mandated registration with the diagnoses, was worrying to Bree's wife, Peg. [Speaker:PEG] I'm scared that now it's easier for someone to come through later on and change the policy and say, "We've called you out. We have this piece of paper that says that you have gender dysphoria, and we don't like that. So anybody with that in their record is now gone." It opened up another avenue of fear for me. And remember, Ayesha, this is back when I spoke to them in 2019, when all of this was just starting.

Coming up after the break, Trump 2.0 and how those fears come true. We're back. So, Lauren, we've talked about what happened during Trump's first term and how the administration required the diagnosis of gender dysphoria for military members to serve openly as a trans person. They were told that if they went and got the diagnosis, they could stay. So why are they being forcibly separated now?

Well, so first we should mention that after Trump lost the 2020 election to Joe Biden, Biden signed an executive order reversing Trump's memorandum. So that meant trans people could now serve openly in the armed forces and removed the requirement for that diagnosis. But a lot of people had it on their files already, and of course Trump would be back in a few years. After he was reelected in 2024, several trans service members who didn't have the diagnosis on file were proactive and started making doctor's appointments ahead of time, thinking, okay, this will save my job just like it did last time.

So we have clients that said, I wouldn't have come out, I only came out because I thought that the ban was going to be the same.

This is Priya Rashid. She's legal director of the National Institute of Military Justice Transgender Representation Project. She is representing trans service members who are navigating this change in policy and being forcibly separated. Rashid says a few of her clients went to go get this taken care of when they saw the election results so they could be grandfathered in before the second ban took place. They assumed it was going to work the same way as the first Trump administration.

Well, did it work the same way? No.

As expected, when Trump took office again— this is in 2025— he reinstated that transgender ban. But this time there was a key difference. This ban doesn't come with that exception for those who get a diagnosis by a certain date. So that paperwork that Bree and many other trans service members filled out back in 2019 thinking, okay, this is going to save my job, it's now being used against them.

Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what Bree's wife Peg feared. I mean, it— she was almost psychic in that, right? That the paperwork would provide the means for removal. [Speaker:LULU] Yeah.

They basically had a list of transgender service members now. And Brie Fram, who was at this point the highest-ranking openly transgender member of the entire armed forces, said she felt like this trap was set. And so did several other people I spoke to. They felt betrayed and confused.

And so what happened to Bree Fram?

Well, she was one of those being forcibly separated after more than 2 decades serving her country. Here's her final moment at that retirement ceremony I went to back in January. Colonel Bree Fram, United States Space Force, departing.

I mean, how did the administration justify this complete reversal?

In a memo, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth gave the following rationale for the reversal. It says, quote, the department must ensure it is building one force without subgroups defined by anything other than ability or mission adherence. Efforts to split our troops along lines of identity weaken our force and make us vulnerable. Such efforts must not be tolerated or accommodated, end quote.

So even though you mentioned there was a RAND study that concluded that transgender service members didn't have a big impact on mission readiness or unit cohesion, Hegseth is still basically saying that it does, and he's shaping his policies around that Yeah, and that scrutiny spreading to other service populations.

In January, NPR's Tom Bowman obtained this memo from the Pentagon announcing a 6-month review of women in ground combat jobs to ensure what it calls the military effectiveness of having several thousand female soldiers and Marines in infantry, armor, and artillery. Hegseth has openly opposed women in ground combat units even before he was appointed Secretary of Defense. Here he is talking about his position in a November 2024 podcast hosted by Sean Ryan.

Because I'm straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn't made us more effective, hasn't made us more lethal, has made fighting more complicated.

He has backtracked on this. During his confirmation hearing last year, he said women can serve in combat roles as long as, quote, the standards have not been eroded. Essentially, he's saying everyone needs to meet male standards. And there are a bunch of other examples of just how focused Hegseth is on cutting out any kind of what he calls woke ideas and anything he associates with DEI— diversity, equity, and inclusion— even during wartime. For example, he's put out a memo about hairstyles and beards that disproportionately affect Black troops or anybody with facial hair for religious reasons, and he's made disparaging remarks about certain body types and weight ranges. Back in September, he gave a speech at Quantico and required hundreds of generals and admirals from commands all around the world to fly in and attend the speech in person.

This administration has done a great deal from day one to remove the social justice, politically correct, and toxic ideological garbage that had infected our department, to rip out the politics. No more identity months. DEI offices, dudes in dresses.

He also required all personnel, so anyone who works at the Pentagon, to read or watch the speech in its entirety.

Okay, so the administration is in the process of separating thousands of active duty trans service members under this ban. Is anyone managing to stay in?

Well, yes, but it requires them to stay hidden. I spoke to two people who don't have the diagnosis and are currently still serving in the military. They both call themselves Stealth, and we are only going to use first name initials for these people because they have a legitimate fear of retaliation. Let's start with W. This is a trans woman in the Navy who has not transitioned. I present very masc.

Because I have a very deep voice. I am male at birth.

So she presents as a man and serves as a man.

And most people I just let believe I am a cis man. See, I can count on one hand, um, 4. 4 people that I work with are aware.

Right now, as people are struggling to understand what's going to happen and there's all this whiplash, W is staying quiet, and she has these trusted confidants who are helping her out by asking questions about the policy, like, on her behalf, so it doesn't get traced back to her.

I will say there is a lot of quiet support for transgender sailors, at least at my command. Like, people are trying their best to follow the exact wording of these orders without completely outing their trans sailors. Stealth really is an apt word to describe it.

And then on the other end of this stealth spectrum, we have A, a trans man also in the Navy who transitioned before joining.

And I'm, I'm not out at my command. It's a lot easier to stay stealth than I thought it would be. And now it's not a staying self because I want to, it's now because I have to.

He says he got through boot camp and other training by telling a few trusted colleagues and superiors who made quick concessions for him, like showering separately. And while he's really grateful for the protection, he says he feels like he's not being as useful to the Navy as he could be. He's recently had to forego some training because he was concerned that his identity would be revealed during the drug testing.

Ever since the executive order came out, it feels like, okay, is today going to be the day? Is today going to be the day? Today's going to be like, no, well, I went through boot camp, nothing happened. I got to my first command, nothing happened. So like, in my head, I know I'm doing nothing wrong. I feel like I'm hiding something, but I shouldn't have to hide it. Yeah, it just weighs and weighs more and more on me every single day.

Yeah, that seems like such a heavy burden to carry while trying to just, you know, do your job. Yeah. So now I'm thinking about the people who do have the diagnosis on their paperwork. What's happening to them right now? How is this new policy being enforced?

Well, Priya Rashid, the military attorney, helped walk me through this because it's really complicated. So this process started with the Air Force last year. They were sort of like the test branch for how this could all work. And the branches are separate. They kind of do things their own different ways. So let's focus on the Air Force. If you are identified for separation, no matter how long you've been in the Air Force, you will get a separation package. It's just a small amount, like what a junior service member would receive, and this would be in lieu of the traditional benefits veterans receive, like medical benefits, which are pretty significant. The Pentagon's policy says if you self-identify and separate voluntarily, you're eligible for more money. But the deadline for this was last summer. That's already passed. So anyone who's being identified now is being separated involuntarily according to this policy. And in any case, we should mention that the word voluntary is relative here, right? Because a lot of people told me they wouldn't leave their jobs if they had a real choice. According to the attorney Priya Rashid, this separation package shouldn't even be considered separation pay at all.

When they get older and they're this older veteran who needs medical and financial support, they are not going to get their accrued benefits because when we kicked them out, we said, here's your lump sum. I mean, that's incredible.

I mean, for a lot of people who join the military, the benefits are a huge part of that decision.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, especially with an uncertain economy, those benefits are attractive and they play a big role in the military's recruitment efforts. I spoke to Mick Wagner. He's the founder and executive director of Veterans Legal Support Network. He says denying or reducing benefits after years of service sets a bad precedent.

You know, it is a fundamental break with the quid pro quo promise of, you know, you serve, you— there's some, there's some benefits on the end of that. And that's just a fundamental breaking of that social contract, if you will, that the military has.

One big example of this is how the Air Force is denying early retirement benefits to transgender service members with 15 to 18 years of service. And even for those who don't qualify for early retirement, there's still a lot at stake. For example, joining the military to pay for college is a really common incentive for military service. And if a service member is pushed out before a certain year of enlistment, they'll end up having to pay back that tuition. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has listed, quote, lethality, meritocracy, warfighting, accountability, and readiness as his top priorities for the armed forces. But Wagner says this whole cumbersome effort to identify and remove transgender troops hurts mission readiness.

You're just cutting your nose off to spite your face. You've got this expertise in so many fields. I've got a friend of mine, she is a lieutenant colonel in the Marines. She was enlisted, she transitioned, she fought in Fallujah. So, you know, when you talk about, you know, warfighters, people who actually fought And she did.

Did you reach out to the Pentagon?

I did contact the Pentagon 3 times to seek comment and clarification on my reporting, and no one was made available to talk with me. Instead, I was sent some links to their website, which just had rundowns of the memos and the guidance we've already been explaining here.

So tell me more about this process for separation. How does it happen?

So service members identified for separation go before these things called separation boards. Basically, it's supposed to be this independent board of your peers. This is the due process given to each service member where you can plead your case to keep your job. But for trans service members, it's going to work a bit differently.

What we see is that the entire process is flawed from beginning to end. We know that the outcome is generally predetermined and that the government has really set itself up to purge these people out of our ranks.

Rashid says for the trans service population, at least in the Air Force, it's a predetermined outcome because more guidance has since come out stating that the separation boards must find anyone with gender dysphoria or a history of it unfit for service and move to separate them.

They are being given a fake board, a board that is deprived of due process and any type of autonomy that a typical military service member would be afforded.

She says new rules also prohibit any recordings of the hearings or the use of court reporters.

Things like the Administrative Procedure Act, they are required to provide appeals. The transcript is the mechanism of appeal. So like, that's a First Amendment and a Fifth Amendment right.

Rashid says cutting off access to due process is illegal. In May of 2025, the Supreme Court did uphold the transgender ban, but appeals are ongoing.

It's really important for our team to present these people's incredible service records and to make sure that we are bringing witnesses and evidence forth that these people are incredibly honorable service members, incredibly honorable soldiers who've given up years of their lives for our country. And even in an unfair board proceeding, we're going to make sure that we set the record straight and we preserved their fitness and their record for hopefully appellate review someday. And that we do trust our processes and our legal system to essentially protect these people, if not today, but on some type of tomorrow.

You know, looking at the kind of geopolitical environment right now, we're engaged in several global conflicts, Iran, Venezuela. Is there a chance that they'll pause this process because they need people, especially experts, who are willing to serve?

They're continuing with the separations. And this made me think about my interview with General McChrystal back in January. This is exactly what he was worried about.

God forbid if we in a major war and we need to start calling everybody up I would hope that we would not suddenly say we are only going to draft people of a certain type because we wouldn't have enough.

I reached back out to A— he's the sailor who transitioned before joining the military— to see if there have been any updates on his situation, if anything has surfaced that might identify him as trans, and he says nothing so far. He's focused right now on what's called a workup cycle, basically getting ready to deploy. He's slated to ship out in the fall, and he's seen how risky the situation in the Middle East is.

My heart breaks for my fellow sailors, Marines, airmen, and soldiers that have either lost their lives or, or will lose their lives.

And A says while he's just trying to focus on his work right now, the fear of being found out is always in the back of his mind. This is the most stressful time.

That you can be in. When you're deployed, all you're worried about is doing your job. While there's that added stress of, you know, being away from home, and also it makes me feel, you know, I'm investing all of this time and energy, and then it's like, okay, well, what if 2 months from now my CO calls down to my shop and he's telling me that, you know, I'm being removed from the Navy? It's like, okay, well, what was all my effort for, right? So it's extremely, extremely taxing. I constantly feel like the rug is going to be pulled out from underneath me.

Wow. I can't imagine being in that precarious position.

Yeah. And, you know, a really common thread throughout all of these interviews I've been conducting over the years for this story is that all of these service members just want to do their jobs. They signed up to serve their country, and they say it's really strange and painful to be treated like the enemy by their own country.

Lauren, thank you so much for bringing us this story.

Thank you for having me.

That was NPR's Lauren Hodges. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan. It was edited by Juni Schmidt. It was engineered by Robert Rodriguez and fact-checked by Sarah Knight. The reporting featured in this episode was originally edited by Andrew Sussman. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Ayesha Rascoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.