Transcript of A Wild West revenge tale and the Black roots of cowboy culture

I'm Ayesha Rascoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. Recently, we lost one of country music's greats, Dolly Parton. I love Dolly. My kids received books through her Imagination Library, her children's literacy program, and I just loved her larger-than-life style. You know, she embraced her big hair and, and the rhinestones and the which I also enjoy. And I think I saw a little bit of myself in her, or really, she gave me permission to be more of myself. I am not subtle. I don't have, like, a classic style. I can be a little bit over the top, and I love a bit of gaudiness, right? And so I— Loved that Dolly embraced that and allowed me to embrace being me. In honor of Dolly, I wanted to bring you a conversation today with a member of the next generation of country musicians, somebody who also won't compromise his vision and his style, Shaboozy. Now you may know the Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter Shaboozy from his features on Beyoncé's Cowboy Carter or from his chart-topping single A Bar Song Tipsy. Well, his latest record has a different vibe. That's the song Sweet Revenge from The Outlaw Sherri Lee and Other Western Tales.

19, live home. She's a renegade with one goal, to find every man that did her wrong.

Sweet Revenge is the 5th song on a genre-defying album all about the epic life of the titular outlaw, Sherry Lee, and about how far she'll go in her quest for vengeance. Shaboozy wasn't sure how this album would go down. It's a high-concept feat of storytelling fusing hip-hop with country, spoken word, and ballads. It even comes with a comic book that builds out Sherry Lee's world. But also, Shaboozy hopes it's a reminder and a celebration of the Black roots of Western cowboy culture.

I hope that people can understand that, like, just me, I'm a representation. I am Black. I am in country music. I am— there's nothing you can do to take that from me.

Today on The Sunday Story, Shaboozy tells me about the inspiration behind his Outlaws and how his cinematic album came together. Stay with us.

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We're back with the Sunday Story. Shaboozy joins me now. I would say howdy, but where I come from, we more say hey, y'all. So hey, y'all.

That's what I'll say too. What up, y'all?

Uh, so Shaboozy, your new album tells the story of an outlaw named Sherri Lee. Please introduce us to her.

Um, honestly, the way Sherri Lee kind of birthed in my brain, it was like a character that just hit me out of nowhere that needed to just be brought to life. Um, when I started working on this album 6, 7 years ago, I remember writing the first song, just wanting to create this outlaw group who came into this town and took over. And in the chaos of all that, they accidentally took the life of this sheriff.

Mm.

But what they didn't know is this sheriff had a daughter, and that daughter was coming for vengeance. So really, she just— you know, when I write stories, sometimes these characters just are just birthed out of nowhere, and then they take on a life of their own. And then I just start following their journey, and I just document what I'm seeing. So, um, sometimes when people ask the question, who's Sherry Lee? I'm like, man, you gotta find out for yourself.

Well, I mean, she's out for revenge, right? She is out for revenge. And that comes up over and over on the album. Like, why did you wanna really delve into this idea of revenge and whether it's sweet, and then also looking at how you gotta deal with the consequences of your actions? Is any part of her story rooted in your actual life experience?

Yeah, I think as an artist, everything is always rooted in some sort of life experience, whether you know it or not. I think the beauty of this whole album is how much I'm also learning about myself and helping process a lot of different things that I've experienced in my life about, you know, everyone has a little outlaw and a little cowboy to them, you know? And I think for her, it's the same thing. I think a lot of the women that have existed in my life, or I've come across in my life, have all, like, changed me in some way. So, it's definitely rooted in some reality. Maybe there's someone out there that wants to get vengeance against me, you know?

Well, there probably is. You're a man, so there probably is.

Is that—

I should kind of say that?

There gotta be.

Well, I'm just looking at you. I think somebody wanna get some vengeance on you.

Yeah, look at me.

You know, the outlaw. So, 100%. And maybe it's my way of just coming to terms with it or playing it out, you know, in my own way.

Trying to get ahead of it.

Get ahead of it. Making it right. It's probably a little bit of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, so you're— and speaking of women, like, your last album was, like, a huge hit. In particular, of course, a bar song, Tipsy. It spent 19 weeks at the top of the Billboard charts. Is Cowgirl, which is on this album, is that a follow-up, kinda, to Tipsy? I mean, it's telling everybody, get to the dance floor. You know what I'm saying?

You wanna hear something crazy?

I actually wrote Cowgirl 4 years before I wrote A Bar Song.

Oh, okay.

in a different form, honestly, more in like a— it was actually a little more hip-hop before, but it was actually an older song that I had wrote for the first iteration of this album, uh, which initially was called We Ran the Sheriff Out of Town. And obviously continuing to work on it, I came up with the idea of changing it. I think I have like notes on my phone with 100 different titles for the album. And then I remember Starring the Outlaw Sherri Lee and Other Western Tales. Mm-hmm. So Cowgirl was definitely a song birthed in that generation of the album. And I just brought it back to this one, you know, having a song just for people to dance to.

Yeah. I mean, was that important for you? 'Cause this is a concept album. It's a high concept album, and we gonna get into that. But was it important for you to also have those numbers where people could feel like they could just dance? They don't have to know the whole story. They don't have to be into the whole thing.

Yeah, 100%. I remember exactly how it came about. You know, I was— I was in my high concept world where I'm like, you know, this song gotta make sense with this song and this song and this song. And my manager, you know, he was like, man, we need a song for the ladies. I'm listening to all this.

Yeah.

You ain't got nothing for the ladies on here. In that way, you know, Sherri Lee, the whole thing is about that. But, you know, you need a song that people can kind of dance to and have fun. And I remember at first he said that, and then another friend came to me and said the same thing without even hearing the music. He was just like, yo, man, you know, I hope you got something for something that's a little bit more, you know, easy to just easygoing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I remember we threw a party that night and I remember we were playing all the classics, Wagon Wheel, Chicken Fried, you know, Miss American Pie, all that stuff. And I noticed that people really started dancing to those songs. And I was like, man, let's— I wanna do a new version of those kind of like fiddle tunes. You know, so that's kind of how Cowgirl got birthed. And the next day I made the song in the studio.

Well, and the concept album, getting into the deep part about it, like, it is a combination of songs with lyrics, instrumental numbers, and like these spoken word pieces by these really big stars, like Hell Is Hot, which I think we have a clip of it.

Jamie Foxx.

Yeah.

Hold your fire.

Before that fire gets a hold of you.

Obviously, that's Jamie Foxx.

Remember, hell is hot, but it's damn cold in a cell.

I mean, it obviously— it gives the album this theatrical feel. But like, why did you want to include spoken words on your album? Because I thought— when I saw Jamie Foxx, I thought he was going to be singing, giving us the grooves. I'm like, what is— like, I'm like, oh, this is different. He's giving us the acting.

You know, I, I, you know, I'm a mad, madman sometimes. You know, what, what comes out, you know, I think for me, I have such a— I've always wanted to be a filmmaker, you know, and it's really cool to see. I know my childhood self is probably like, dang, he's, he's really doing it. But I've always been trying to make films and, and, and movies and write stories like that.

Yeah.

So I think my, my goal with this was to create an album that did feel like a movie and have features that felt more like an ensemble cast than just music. You know, I'm always a guy like anytime anyone's dropping an album, I'm always like, who's on the— who's on the album? What's the features? What's the features? And I think what's really cool about this is the fact that, you know, getting Jamie Foxx, Kehlani, Leon Bridges, Gunna, but also Sam Elliott.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Time's up, outlaw. Your rope's run short. Someone's gotta pay for all the blood you took. It's only you and us now. The rest of your bootcut boys are dead.

I mean, how did you get all of these people? 'Cause I mean, you got like everybody. So I'm like, was anybody hard to get? Was it just like shaboozy, everybody was like, yes?

I think so. And that's why I think it's like, it's really, it's really just dope.

So you saying you that guy? That's what you saying?

Nah.

That's what you just— 'cause I said, should Boozy— that's it. He said, yep, that's exactly what happened.

Hey, look, what's really amazing is how a lot of the people on the feature, like the feature list, are connect, you know, connect with it. Like Sam Elliott was telling me, you know, a lot of his family members love the song too. And like, he loves the song and loves my music. And, um, I think really, man, you know, sometimes you just gotta just, you just gotta stick to it. You know, I know I had this crazy idea for this Outlaw Sherri Lee for a while and, you know, and I always wanted to do it and do a concept album, but it was about timing. So it's cool that every step of my journey helped create, uh, you know, I made a lot of friends and fans along the way that, you know, just wanted to be a part of it. You know, I just asked really. And that's what I love about it. It's You know, everybody came and brought something unique. And Teyana Taylor, she heard it and she was like, she was like, this, this like, this like Sinners.

You know what I mean?

It's like some, it's like some Sinners-ish. I was like, you know, I was like, that's crazy.

So.

Well, I mean, you know, speaking of, and, and Kehlani is on it. Um, and, and she, it's, it's a beautiful piece. It's Bullets and Blades. Um, let's, uh, let's play a little clip of that. I know your past was a god-awful place, but look what it made. I know your past was a god-awful place, but look what it made. That's a line. That's a bar. You know what I'm saying? That's a bar. Who wrote that?

Yeah.

Man, you know, I would say everybody, all of us collectively as people wrote it, you know? And that's what I love about a song like that. It just feels like it connects with everybody. Like, I remember playing that song with, um, at some of the little listening meetings I did, and I couldn't help but to cry. You know, it's a hard song not to cry to because, you know, I know all of us, we've all been through a lot of things. And, but each one of those things that we went through, I wouldn't be who I was if it wasn't for those moments that You know, I was— I felt, you know, pain and the things we experienced and the trauma, you know, it made us who we are. And it's beautiful, those imperfections. So I really wanted to do a, girl, you amazing just the way you are.

Like Bruno.

But, you know, Sherry Lee, obviously, she's experienced this loss. She's lost both her parents. I mean, she's lost her father. But prior to that, she also lost her mother. And she's obviously going through All of these different emotions, but it's created this strong, beautiful woman that the character who I play in this, Booze, which is myself, falls in love with. And all the other characters, all the other outlaws, everyone's kind of— they have a story before those moments. So it's just about celebrating stories and our past, but also, you know, looking to hopefully have a better future always.

When we come back, Shaboozy tells us why this was the perfect moment for Sherri Lee and about his Black country heroes. Stay with us.

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Hi, it's Terry Gross, host of FRESH AIR. As we mourn the loss of the great Dolly Parton, it feels good to listen back to her reflecting on her life and to hear some of her Dollyisms.

I always say that it's a good thing I was a woman, because if I'd have been a man, I would have been a drag queen, just because I'm so damn gaudy.

We've dropped the Dolly Fresh Air interview on the NPR app and wherever you listen to podcasts.

We're back with Shaboozy on The Sunday Story. You know, well, you talked about, like, timing. And I have to wonder because, okay, you have, you know, Bar Song, and it's a huge hit. That puts a lot of pressure on any artist. Like, okay, when you gonna make the next one? When you gonna make the next Bar Song? And it could have also put you in a box in a way, right? Like, okay, we want you to make that song that's gonna be hot on TikTok, right?

Yeah.

Um, was there any resistance to you doing a concept album and saying— 'cause you, like, going in a different direction and say, let me do this high concept thing instead of, like, letting me just give a bunch of, you know, songs. 'Cause I mean, as someone else who you worked with famously said, Beyoncé, um, people don't make albums anymore. They don't make albums anymore.

Yeah.

Man, I think for me, that's a great question.

And it's come up a number of times. And there's definitely been some, you know, a lot of like emotions around that whole idea of, you know, doing what's familiar and just doing what, you know, what maybe some would consider the safer thing. And nah, I think when I brought the idea up, everyone on the team was really supportive. I was actually very surprised. I mean, this is an idea. I mean, I brought this up a couple years ago, and I remember at that time, people were like, we need to get to know who you are before you get into this concept world. But now, it just feels like they feel like I've— they said, you've earned this. And I'm just really grateful to have the team I have that support the idea. Anytime I have any doubts, they're like, what are you talking about, brother? Like, this is exactly what you need to be doing.

I mean, you're from Woodbridge, Virginia, um, a suburb of the D.C. metropolitan area, and your parents are Nigerian. Um, what led you to fall in love with country music?

Uh, I think a mix of a lot of different things. Um, I think just being in Virginia and just trying to understand the history of, of music there, you know, I knew You know, a lot of times when you think of Virginia music, you think, you know, Pharrell, Missy, Timbaland, the Clipse, Teddy Riley. I mean, I could keep going on, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

But there's history beyond that as well with Patsy Cline, you know, a Winchester, Virginia native. Emmylou Harris, who went to our high school. Carter Family as well in Bristol, Virginia. They did the Bristol Recordings, which they recorded a lot of that with Leslie Riddle, who also penned a lot of those songs or wrote a lot of those songs. There's just a lot of a rich history of country music in general in Virginia. And I just wanted to figure out a way to celebrate it all, combining obviously the hip-hop elements of what I grew up listening to, as well as the country music that I came to love later and what I was exposed to early on in my life. I think it was really just meditating on where I'm from in Virginia. And I've always been kind of just like, talking about nature and just trying to help people, like, just connect back to nature and connect back to the simple things they have, you know, in life. So it was really me just trying to celebrate those things, you know?

Well, do you feel like, you know, you mentioned obviously Beyoncé and Cowboy Carter, and obviously there's been all of this attention even way before that on, you know, Black artists in country music. And I know you probably get asked this question all the time, Um, and because of that, I kind of want to ask you, what do you think, like, in terms of Black Western history, are there specific people or, like, historical moments that inspired you?

Yeah, I think, um, a lot of the— a lot of classic, like, Western characters, like Bill Pickett was definitely one I read about. Bass Reeves, who was, uh, a historical lawman back in the West. And, you know, George Fletcher as well. There's just been so many things. Ever since I started this project, I feel like my algorithm has been just showing me more and more stories that I wish I was able to read before. And I wish more people saw these stories because I think for the longest time, obviously, in the 1950s, 1960s, and even earlier, the cowboy image, we tend to think that was just a white man on a horse with a cowboy hat.

Yeah.

But 1 in every 4 cowboys were Black. And a lot of them, even most of them, even vaqueros, Latin Americans. So, um, it's cool to just like, I hope people see this as, as a representation and, you know, more people feel brave, not even brave. They shouldn't even feel brave. Like this is natural to us. And, you know, when people ask me, why do you make, you know, why country music and why this? I'm like, why not? You know, this wasn't, it wasn't a choice. It almost was just felt like it was a part of, a part of me already. So, man, just to be able to continue that history. Uh, it's everything.

Well, thank you. That, that is, that is lovely. And returning to the album, just to— as we close, I love your song Coyote's Point. Um, well, Coyote, Coyote. We gotta, we gotta clip of it.

I should pick my guitar up and play it right now.

What? Bring it, bring your guitar out.

Bring it?

Yeah, bring it out, bring it out. Is that y'all playing it? you playing it? Oh my gosh, wow! Oh my goodness, that is beautiful. You got to sing a little bit. I got to hear a little— I got to sing. Come here.

You got to come to the show for that.

I got to come to the— okay, I knew, I knew they were going— I knew you were going to say that. You like, look, you got to get some tickets.

You got to get to the show for that, for the rest of that.

That was wonderful. That was— but that's That's Coyote. That's Coyote's point. And we'll, we'll play a clip with some—

Go ahead.

We'll play a clip.

I love me some moonshine and it knows me well. It guides me at nighttime and fills up the jars on the shelf. I've heard it makes coyotes sing ballads, and unlike Hill, I think I might be a bit of a coyote myself.

No spoilers, but there's—

there's—

that song is That's what the whole album is about. She doesn't start out as an outlaw. You know, if you listen correctly, pretty much what happens to her makes her to— creates that. And that's what the whole— that's what Coyote's Point is about. So, you know, she actually becomes the coyote.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

She's pretty much saying, she's like, I'm a bit of an outlaw myself. Like, you know what I mean? She's like, dang, after all this stuff, like, I didn't hung out with these guys. Like, I didn't— I didn't became a part of the whole world. Now, you know, now I love moonshine, you know? So Coyote's Point is actually from the perspective of Sherry And I didn't really realize that till I was singing the song on the microphone. And I was like, oh, no. Like, this whole thing is about her going from small-town prairie girl, daughter of a sheriff, to then becoming a coyote by the end of the album.

Is that the— but is that where you want people to go on, where we all got a little bit of this in us?

A coyote?

A little bit of it in us.

Literally, we all— yeah, you know, it just takes— nothing's black and white, you know? There's experiences that happen to you, and there's how you respond to the world around you, you know?

Yeah.

Well, that's Shaboozy talking about his new album, The Outlaw Sherry Lee and Other Western Tales. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. You are awesome. Amazing.

This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Renny Svernavski. Jenny Schmidt edited this episode. Special thanks to Andrew Craig and Jacob Finsten, who worked on the original interview. The Sunday Story team includes Liana Simstrom, Andrew Mambo, and Justine Yan. Anh Le Quang mastered this episode. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

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