Transcript of Reality is tougher than Senate confirmation in Bondi's aim to do Trump's bidding

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There are still some significant details to be worked out. But as of today, negotiators for Hamas and Israel have reached a ceasefire agreement that commits to returning the remaining Israeli hostages and ultimately ending the 15-month long war in Gaza that has killed at least 46,000 people. People took to the streets in both Israel and Gaza to celebrate the deal after it was announced. The agreement will still need to be ratified by the Israeli cabinet before it can be implemented in the deal, as outlined so far, is nearly identical to the one outlined by the Biden administration last May. It is said to play out in three phases. The first phase will take place over the next six weeks, beginning Sunday with a full and complete ceasefire between the two sides. That will be followed by Hamas, releasing dozens of Israeli hostages, including women, the elderly, and the wounded, while Israel will release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. Bbc News reports that two of the Israeli hostages hostages released in the first rounds will be Americans Saghid Dehkhalhan and Keith Siegel. During this phase, Israeli forces are expected to withdraw from populated areas of Gaza. Humanitarian aid is expected to surge into Gaza, and Palestinians should be allowed to return to their home neighborhoods.

Phase 2 of this deal will be dedicated to reaching a permanent end to the war. During this phase, the two sides will negotiate an exchange for the remaining hostages who not released in phase 1. All Israeli forces are expected to withdraw from Gaza. Now, in phase 3 of the agreement, NBC News reports that the remains of the hostages who died in Hamas's custody are expected to be returned to their families, and a, quote, major reconstruction plan is expected to begin. There is a lot to be determined here, but it is still potentially a major breakthrough in a bloody and protracted war. Less than half an hour after the negotiations made this deal, the negotiators made this deal public, President-elect Trump claimed credit for the agreement, posting on a social media site, This epic ceasefire agreement could have only happened as a result of our historic victory in November. We have achieved so much without even being in the White House. Trump had been publicly threatening negotiators to come to a deal, saying in a press conference last week that there will be hell to pay if the hostages were not released before he took office.

Tonight, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called President Trump, President Elect Trump to thank him before calling actual President Biden, the man whose administration negotiated this deal and the person who is still the President of the United States of America. Today, President Biden emphasized his administration's lead in the negotiations, but he also noted the cooperation of Trump's team, perhaps in an effort to keep the incoming President from blowing up the deal altogether.

I also note this deal was developed and negotiated under my administration, but its terms will be implemented, for the most part, by the next administration. In these past few days, we've been speaking as one team. I told my team to coordinate closely with the incoming team to make sure we're all speaking with the same voice, because that's what American presidents do.

At the end of that same appearance, President Biden responded to exactly one question from a reporter, and this was it. Thank you. Books credit for this, Mr. President, you or Trump.

Is that a joke? No.

Joining me now are Ben Rodes, former Deputy National Security Advisor under President Obama, and may I'm Mohamedin, host of AMEN here on MSNBC. Guys, thank you both for joining me here tonight. I'm so thrilled that I can get both of your thoughts. Ben, just on this stagecraft of this announcement, I am very curious to know how you're reading the back and forth here. President Biden gave his farewell address this evening, and he made sure to talk about how the fact was that this was a deal his administration negotiated, suggesting that Trump came in at the end. How relevant is the fact that Trump is coming into office in five days to the agreement that we have on the table today?

Alex, it has to be relevant. It's glaringly obvious that the timeline is somewhat tied to the fact that we're going through a presidential transition. The reason you know that is because this deal has been on the table since the spring. It's really not materially different than what was on the table in the spring. I think what we can take away, obviously, is relief, and assuming this has implemented, joy for the hostages who will be released and reunited with their families, and for the people of Gaza who've just been living in hell on Earth and might finally get some aid and some relief and ultimately some reconstruction. But I think in terms of the timing, what's happened here is you had a convergence of interest between Biden and Trump. Biden obviously wanted to get this done while he was in office. They've been trying to negotiate precisely these terms for the better part of this year. Donald Trump wanted this off his plate. He didn't want to come into office with an ongoing conflict in Gaza. Pretty clearly, he was weighing in. I've talked to people in governments, not just the US government, but people in the region who said that that's the message they were getting privately as well as publicly from Trump.

And I think Netanyahu, he's sitting there and he has ensured his own political survival, frankly, by the perpetuation of this war. He was going to have some trouble with the right wing of his coalition that does not want any peace. But I think he could point to Trump and say, Hey, look, we got Trump coming in, and I got to this. I think it was a convergence of a lot of things, including the incoming Trump administration.

Yeah, Amen. I'm very struck by some statements made this evening on Fox News by Trump's incoming National Security Advisor, This is on Fox. I think we have the sound if we can play it right now.

We've made it very clear to the Israelis, and I want the people of Israel to hear me on this. If they need to go back in, we're with them. If Hamas doesn't live up to the terms of this agreement, we are with them. Hamas is not going to continue as a military entity, and it certainly is not going to govern Gaza, Brett.

I want to be optimistic about this thing ending this horrible war. But you hear these caveats that are emerging less than 24 hours. There's Donald Trump and his involvement in this, the fact that he's going to be the one to actually implement this. How are you thinking about this agreement?

I'm thinking about it in In a few different ways. First, I'm looking at it on the ground in the immediate reaction for the people of Gaza. The people of Gaza are celebrating today. No one can deny that. There's a lot of pain, there's a lot of grief, there's been a tremendous amount of loss, but I'm centering it around their reaction for what this means. If the killing can stop for a day, for two, for 42 days and build on that, then it is a very positive day. That's the first and immediate concern that I was looking at as a journalist. But more importantly beyond that is, how long is this actually going to be sustainable? There are some things that you're going to come up, you're going to rub up against that are just going to be undeniable. The incoming National Security Advisor, or sorry, who we just heard from there.

Yes, Mike Walsh, the incoming National Security Advisor.

Correct. I was thinking of Steve Whitekopf, who's in the region, but I'm thinking about Mike Wallace, who's saying that. You are not going to be able to remove Hamas from Gaza. He is saying Hamas is not going to govern Gaza, but you're not going to be able to make that determination unless you say, Well, what are you going to do with Hamas, whose ideology exists, who has been able to replenish itself, been able to constitute itself. We just heard from Anthony Blinken yesterday who told us that Hamas has managed to recruit more militants since October seventh in this war than it has. So America is telling the world- Than before. Than before. So America is telling the world two things. It's saying, under this administration, at least, the war must go on to destroy Hamas. But at the same time, as long as the war goes on, Hamas is still recruiting militants, and nobody has been able to square how they-They don't understand the interlinkage between those two. Correct. And yet this is what Anthony Lincoln was telling us. The Secretary of State was telling us yesterday in his farewell address. Here comes the incoming administration who is going to deal with that reality.

Hamas can have all of its leaders killed, and yet here we are, just after killing Haneia and Yehia Sinoar and all the others, has managed to create an immediate new generation that has just entered into a negotiation with Israel.

With a robust recruitment apparatus. Ben, what is your level of optimism? We know what phase one is, and I think to Ayman's point, it should be celebrated that there could be a tentative piece that lives could be saved in this peaceful period, that hostages could be returned. But in terms of your level of optimism about this holding through stages two and three, which seem tricky even on paper to say nothing of the realities that Eamonn just outlined, where are you on this?

I wouldn't say I'm optimistic, I'm hopeful. Let's put it that way. I mean, look, the relief for the people of Gaza is extraordinary, and you see it on the streets. And just getting aid in, just having some peace for some period of time is transformational from what they've been through. However, there are massive questions, Alex, and Eman teed up some of them. Who is going to be responsible for the governance of Gaza? Who is going to be responsible for the security of Gaza. Hamas is not destroyed, as was the stated objective of the Israeli military campaign. Hamas negotiated this, they agreed to it. One concern you might have looking at the situation for Palestinians is hostages are returned, and then you have a right wing of Netanyahu's coalition that does not want this deal. I mean, they're criticizing this deal. You could see a resumption of military operations in Gaza once the hostages are out, and then it continues. Even if that doesn't happen, you still have a long reconstruction effort. There's not an end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You have Gaza and rubble, and you've got the West Bank, where you've had a very volatile situation over the course of the the war since October seventh.

So there are huge issues awaiting the Trump administration. There's a possibility that if this holds long enough, that reconstruction can start, maybe the Gulf countries come in. There have been talk of potentially Arab forces that can help provide security, something that is in the way of a resumption of hostilities between Hamas and Israel, that's what you want to get to. You want to get to a place where this thing can't just explode again. That's possible. There's a pathway to that. But we should be clear that there are many things that could derail this. Then even if you get there, you still have all kinds of question marks about both the future of Gaza and the West Bay.

Yeah. Why not? Which is an Israeli media outlet reported on Monday that President Trump, according to a source familiar with the details, has already promised Prime Minister Netanyahu and Minister Ron Dermer that if they agree to a ceasefire and the withdrawal of IDF, Israeli Defense Forces, from the Gaza Strip, Trump will support Israel retroactively if it decides to return to fighting and violate the ceasefire.

We're rightfully focusing on what Trump has brought to this equation in the ceasefire deal. I think what is also important to notice is what the Prime Minister of Israel has done over the past several months in being able to game American politicians to get to this point. Benjamin Naniahu is a shrewd and smart politician. That is undeniable. He could have delivered this victory to Joe Biden eight months ago prior to a US election in which US candidate for the Democratic Party, the vice President, could have been running on a ceasefire deal. He did not do that, and he did not do that by design, not because he simply was sitting back there and saying, That deal is not good. Nothing has changed in the past eight months dramatically in terms of the deal.

Only American politics have changed.

Exactly. My point to that is, it is hard to imagine that the Prime Minister of Israel has entered into this ceasefire deal without knowing that on the back end of it, down the road, there is going to be some chips to be cashed in with the Trump administration. Now, Could that be the desire to annex the West Bank? Could that be the desire to repopulate Northern Gaza with Israeli settlers? Could that be a strike on Iran that would require American military involvement and direct military cover for Israel if Iran gets struck. All of these factors are now on the table for the Israeli Prime Minister to actually use against the administration of Donald Trump to say, Hey, look, we gave you a win on day one. We released the hostages. We entered into this deal. You now are beholden to us and what we want to do with some of these issues across the region.

Well, and it's unclear how much it's even an issue for Trump to be beholden to those desires. It's not clear that he wouldn't acquiesce to them willingly.

We have people in the incoming Trump administration who have made clear, Mike Huckabee has said that he wants or supports the annexation, as he calls it, Judea and Samaria, which is the West Bank. Others in the administration have favored regime change in Iran for years. For them, that is like the Holy Grail of regime change in the region. People have been salivating about that in the last couple of months because Iran is at its most weakened position. You have a very combustible situation, a very shrewd Israeli politician who knows how to manipulate the American political system to his advantage as he has done time and time again.

Ben, I have to ask this because we're in a elegeic mode tonight, given the President's farewell address. I wonder, he's going out with this deal. I think what he would say is a feather in his cap This is a mixed metaphor, but it's a complicated ending, or it's the most positive ending you could ask for in a very complicated situation. What do you think of his legacy on this war?

Look, I'm glad, again, that hostages are being released. I'm glad that the people of Gaza have some peace, but think of what has happened. It's worth celebrating the deal, but it's It's not worth celebrating a policy. I don't think if you ask the Biden team in the early days of this, that they thought that it would take until January of 2025 for there to be a deal. This is not the timeline that they were pursuing. Frankly, I think the legacy is there was unconditional support in terms of military support. Every bomb dropped was dropped by an American plane. 2000-pound bombs dropped in refugee camps were American bombs, vetoes at the Security Council. Joe Biden's legacy see is that he gave unconditional support for a war that destroyed Gaza. And some people support that. But the reality is, I think it's, look, maybe we're going to learn more, by the way, about the destruction. If journalists are allowed to get into Gaza, which they've not been allowed in since October seventh. I think the death toll is going to go up, the destruction reports are going to go up. So I'm glad this happened. But the reality is the timing tells the story here.

I I think Amin is exactly right. I think Netanyahu played this out until after the election, played it out until he was in a stronger political position. He's in a stronger political situation, in part because of what's happened in Lebanon, where they've made serious gains against Hisbal and you have a new government. I don't think Joe Biden was controlling events. I just don't. I don't think he was in command of the diplomacy here. I think they negotiated these terms, but these terms, along with Qatar and others, but these are the obvious terms in terms of a ceasefire. Sure, there are particularities about whether Israel has a presence for a period of time and the Philadelphia Corridor, which is a border with Egypt. But those are technicalities. The basic perpetuation of the war was Bibi Netanyahu's decision being backed by Joe Biden. I think that will be the legacy of this more than this deal.

To remind everybody, Amen, over 47,000 people killed in Gaza, more than 1,600 in Lebanon, and of course, 1,200 in Israel. The Lancet, a medical journal, estimates the death toll in Gaza is likely 40% higher than 47,000.

To add very quickly to Ben's point about the legacy of this war, Christopher Ray, the outgoing FBI director and the US intelligence community, addresses that ISIS has been able to recruit based off of the Gaza War, thousands, if not more radicalized individuals across the region. You're getting a Trump administration that is contemplating right now with a new change in Syria, withdrawing US troops that have been involved in the fight against ISIS. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying to you, you're seeing the legacy of this war. It is going to have ripple effects across the region for years, if not generations to come, not just outside of Gaza, but even inside of Gaza. You have a new generation of Palestinians who are going to be scarred by this war. We have heard time and time again of people inside Gaza who have vowed revenge for what they have had to endure over the past 15 months. That's a scary thought.

Yeah. Ben Rodes, thank you for your time and wisdom this evening. Ayman Mohadine, it is always great to have you on to talk about these issues. Ayman's show, of course, airs weekend nights starting at 07: 00 PM Eastern right here on MSNBC. More ahead this evening, including 2020 election denialism on full display today in the nomination hearing for Trump's pick for attorney general. But first, President Biden's farewell address to the nation was really just an ominous warning about our democracy. Claire McCascoll and Jonathan Martin join me on that coming up next. Stay with Kildare Village is always far from ordinary, but right now it's simply extraordinary. That's because the extraordinary sale means even more savings you love on the brands you adore. How extraordinary is that? The extraordinary sale ends Bank holiday Monday at Kildare Village. See kildarevillage. Com for terms and conditions and participating brands.

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I do think it's worth being very clear-eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

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Today, an oligarchy is taking shape in America of extreme wealth, power, and influence that literally threaten our entire democracy, our basic rights and freedoms, and a fair shot for everyone to get ahead. We see the consequences all across America, and we've seen it before. More than a century ago. But the American people stood up to the robber barons back then and busted the trust Tonight, in his farewell address to the nation, President Biden warned about powerful forces that threatened the idea of America and democracy itself.

An emerging American oligarchy was just one of several concerns the President outlined days before he departs political life after five days in public service and hands the keys to the White House to Donald Trump. Joining me now to discuss are Claire McCascoll, former Democratic Senator from Missouri and current MSNBC political analyst, and Jonathan Martin, Senior Political Columnist for Politico. Guys, thanks for being here. Claire, I think there was some expectation that Biden would tick through a list of his accomplishments, which are many, and he did a little bit of that. But I was struck by how dark, how ominous this warning was to the American public on his way out the door. I did not think I would hear the phrase American oligarchy from Joe Biden's mouth. What did you think?

Yeah, I think he has really had to deal more so than any other President, with the hangover of misinformation and a lack of factual basis for American policymaking. We have way too many people in America that are only trying to find affirmation and not information. I just want everybody to remember, when they look on that inaugural podium on the day he's sworn in, a guy who supposedly is all about a populace movement and helping the little guy and who's been screwed over by the swamp and the deep state, he's going to have three guys sitting together holding hands that are worth a trillion dollars, Alex. The three of them are worth a trillion dollars. I mean, that's half of the money that Musk is trying to cut out of the budget. That's what they're worth. I mean, it is astounding the wealth that has been hyper centralized in our information sources They own newspapers, they own social media, they control a lot of our lives. Once everybody gives up fact-checking, if the only people left are fact-checking, our editors in just a few news news outlets, we're in more trouble than I think people realized.

I think that's what Joe Biden was trying to do tonight. I thought it was strong and bold. I was glad he didn't tick off all the list. I was afraid like you, that's what he would do.

I can hear you saying, Yeah, Jaymart, and I want to get to you because I want to play a little bit more sound getting right at what Claire is talking about, the misinformation and the erosion of the fourth estate. Let's take a listen to what Biden had to say. This is a piece of sound 1B, Control Room.

Americans are being buried under an avalanche of misinformation and disinformation, enabling the abuse of power. The free press is crumbling. Editors are disappearing. Social media is giving up on fact-checking. The truth is smothered by lies told for power and for profit. We must hold the social platform accountable to protect our children, our families, and our varied democracy from the abuse of power.

What do you think when you heard that, Jaymart?

Well, let me say two things. Number one, the politics of it. He's smart to change the topic from the fact that he's handing over the presidency to Donald Trump, in part because of his own choices. He ran again for re-election when he shouldn't have, and Trump's revival is in part on his hands, and he's changing the topic. That's savvy politically. On the merits, he's totally right, and he's taking a page from Eisenhower. Both of you guys know this. When Eisenhower left the White House in 1960, he warned of the military-industrial complex. Biden is taking a page from history and is basically repurposing that warning about the industrial complex, and he's absolutely accurate on the merits of it. Look no further than what happened last fall in North Carolina, the belief that that hurricane was somehow bioengineered. Look no further than what happened the last couple of weeks, Alex, with regard to the fires in California, the misinformation about that. It is a really sobering moment when we, in this country, are so susceptible to believe this made-up misinformation BS about these tragic events, and it's hard to figure out what is truth and what is false.

I think the President is right to raise it. He's right to address it. Yes, it is smart politics of him personally to change the Claire, and Jaymer, I'll give you a chance to respond to this as well, too.

I am less inclined to... I do think, yes, it may be smart politically, but I would imagine that part of this, this wasn't about Donald Trump, not just because Joe Biden's ticket effectively lost to Trump. But I think Biden is thinking deeply about how Trump got reelected. These are systemic problems, deep failings within the rubric of democracy that he wants to call the American citizenry as attention to, because if we don't start paying attention to it, we lose our democracy as we know it. I was shocked by the fact that he called out the Supreme Court in this set of remarks as well, Claire. I want to play that piece of sound for anybody who might have missed that.

We need to enact an 18-year time limit, term limit, time and term, for the strongest ethics and the strongest ethical reforms for our Supreme Court. We need to amend the Constitution to make clear that no president, no President is immune from crimes that he or she commits while in office. President's power is not a limit. It's not absolute.

There was a time I'm old enough to remember when Joe Biden would not say a bad word about the Supreme Court. Here he is calling for term limits, code of ethics, and excoriating one of their biggest rulings in the last year, the presidential immunity ruling.

Yeah, and guess what? The American people want term limits on the Supreme Court. Frankly, the American people want term limits on everybody in power. I'm not always sure that's a good idea. But once again, politically, an ethics reform at the Supreme Court, yeah, check. American people want that. Term limits on the Supreme Court, yes, the American people want that. This is what happens, and this is what's going to be really interesting. You're going to see a giant train wreck between these billionaire bros that are taking over the West Wing, that are taking over government as a shadow government without any real authority or power. They've not been elected to anything. They're going to be sitting up there on that podium representing to America. Hey, you may think Donald Trump has taken the oath, but see us over here? We really control your information. We control the satellites. We control who's going to space and how we control a lot of things in the Defense Department, and how that's going to train wreck with these populace things he campaigned on. They're going to come into office and the first thing they're going to do is take care of these guys' tax cuts.

It's going to be really interesting to see how Trump manages the message, the narrative around this, because he's lassoed these guys, but I'm not sure he's riding them. I think they're riding him.

Jaymart, there's a lot of consternation inside democratic circles. Where does the party go from here? What should their marching orders be? I almost thought this was like an outline. As Claire says, it's like, okay, you want to talk populism? What does it mean to have Elon Musk, the world's richest man, literally negotiating foreign policy on calls with foreign leaders on the dias at the inauguration functioning as a shadow president? You want to talk populism? You want to talk the voice of the people? What does it mean to have unelected judicial officials that are serving lifetime terms, making massively significant decisions about American life and remaining completely unaccountable. I actually thought, as far as a blueprint for what issues Democrats might want to focus on in the coming years, it wasn't a bad one.

Well, first of all, Alex, I, too, was surprised that Joe Biden, of all people, would call for term limits on the Supreme Court because he was so reluctant in the 2020 campaign to even touch the Supreme Court and had to be pushed to even create a faux commission to address court reform, which he obviously ignored the recommendation. So That's a huge step. Yeah, look, it's obvious. There's going to be a thousand op-eds, a thousand essays, a thousand more panel discussions, guys, in the next two and a half, three years about how Democrats come back, the Democratic The Democratic reform is simply this. You point the finger at the folks who are in charge for misgovernment, misrule, excesses, and incompetence, and you win because of that. The reason Claire McCasgill, in part, besides her deaf political skills, won the Senate seating 2006 is because you had a Republican President who was deeply unpopular in '06 and '08 and opened the door for Democrats to come back. That is the same formula that I think is going to This time, yes, you have a populist agenda in tension with a oligarchic support and folks who are in your donor class who are going to be pushing you toward an agenda that is not populist.

If Democrats cannot hit that big, fast softball down the middle of the plate, they ought to hang it up.

Yeah. I mean, at the risk of sounding like a Cassandra, I do think the external factors and the external realities are so much more dire than they were, I don't know, in 2006, and I would never underestimate Claire McCascoll's sheer gumption in terms of getting herself elected to anything. But I do think we're swimming in the deep end right now. We have to leave it there. Claire McCaskill, Jonathan Martin, thank you both for joining me tonight. Really appreciate you guys. Coming up as major corporations scale back their DEI initiatives amid pressure from Conservatives, at least one major big box retailer is standing firm. It's not McDonald's. I'll tell you that it's not McDonald's. Hilton. That's coming up. But first, Trump's nominee for attorney general, a peddler of the Big Lie in 2020, faced heated questions from Democrats on Capitol Hill today. How it went, coming up next.

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Today at her confirmation hearing, Pam Bondi, Trump's nominee to be attorney general of the United States, had an incredibly hard time giving a straight answer to a very straightforward question.

Are you prepared to say today under oath, without reservation, that Donald Trump lost the presidential contest to Joe Biden in 2020?

Ranking member Durban, President Biden is the President of the United States.

You have to be able to say that Donald Trump lost the 2020 election. You dodged that question when you were asked directly by Senator Durban.

Who won the 2020 presidential election?

Joe Biden is the President of the United States.

Donald Trump, you lost the 2020 election. Can you tell us that here today?

Senator, what I can tell you is I will never play politics. You're trying to engage me in a gotcha.

A gotcha? She called the question, Did Donald Trump lose the 2020 election a got you? For almost anyone, anyone else in the world, that is actually a pretty easy question to answer. Yes, Donald Trump lost the 2020 election. But for Pam Bondi, the question is tricky. You might not remember this, but before Rudy Giuliani stole the spotlight with his dripping hair dye and his press conference at Four Seasons Total Landscaping, before that happened, Pam Bondi was the face of Trump's legal challenges over the 2020 election. In fact, the main reason Giuliani ended up giving that infamous press conference outside a random landscaping company was because Pam Bondi's press conference in the middle of Philadelphia, two days earlier, was literally drowned out by protesters. You couldn't actually hear what she was saying. But Bondi was a central part of Trump's efforts to contest the results of that election, and particularly in the state of Pennsylvania, where Bondi was one of the key Trump world figures pushing the big lie. Here was Pam Bondi, days after the 2020 election, claiming there had been fraud in Pennsylvania. Now, pay attention to the faces of the Fox News hosts here because clearly, even they don't believe her.

We do have evidence of cheating, and I'll talk about that in a minute. These fake ballots that are coming in late. Back to the observation, they're not letting us watch the process.

Pam, did you just say fake ballots?

There could be. Have you heard stories of ballots that are fake.

If so, just tell us what you know.

Well, we know that ballots have been dumped. There were ballots that were found early on. We've heard that people were receiving ballots that were dead.

Anyway, Now, the very fact that Pam Bondi pushed the lie that there was foul play in the 2020 election, just that very fact alone should be enough to disqualify her from being the nation's top cop. But today, not only did Bondi refuse to say Donald Trump lost the 2020 election, she also continued continued four years later to claim that there was some foul play in the state of Pennsylvania.

I accept, of course, that Joe Biden is President of the United States, but what I can tell you is what I saw firsthand when I went to Pennsylvania as an advocate for the campaign. I was an advocate for the campaign, and I was on the ground in Pennsylvania, and I saw many things there. But do I accept the results? Of course I do.

I saw many There are things there. Sure you did. For most people, asking who won the 2020 election is a fact-based question. But when it comes to Donald Trump, it is a question of loyalty. Are you willing to lie to the American people, embarrassing yourself over and over and over again and endangering democracy, all because it's what Donald Trump wants you to do? It is a litmus test. And by not giving a straight answer on the question of whether or not Trump lost the 2020 election, while Pam Pam Bondi passed that test. But believe it or not, that was not the most concerning question Pam Bondi refused to answer today. We'll get to that coming up next.

When Republicans take back the White House, and we will be back in there in 18 months or less, you know what's going to happen? The Department of Justice, the prosecutors will be prosecuted, the bad ones. The investigators will be investigated.

In In 2023, Pam Bondi promised to investigate the investigators. Today, at her confirmation hearing, Democratic senators pressed for answers about whether Bondi still held those views as President-elect Trump's nominee to run the Department of Justice.

The President has said Jack Smith should go to jail. Will you investigate Jack Smith?

Senator, I haven't seen the file. I haven't seen the investigation. I haven't looked at anything.

Are you aware of a factual to investigate Jack Smith.

Yes or no?

Senator, what I'm hearing on the news is horrible. Do I know if he committed a crime? I have not looked at it.

You seem reluctant to answer a simple question. Let me ask you a different simple question. The President also wants to jail Liz Cheney sitting here Today, are you aware of any factual basis to investigate Liz Cheney? Yes or no?

Senator, that's a hypothetical, and I'm not going to answer that question. No, it's not a hypothetical.

It actually is not a hypothetical. Joining me now is NBC news National Security Editor author of Where Tyranny begins: The Justice Department, the FBI, and the War on Democracy, the Great David Road. David, we spent a little time in the block before this talking about Pam Bonnie's actions in the past, but her marching orders for the future, if you're listening to that, I think should maybe send a chill up the spine of anybody in the Department of Justice and people interested in the law. What did you make of those responses there? Repeated questioning from Adam Schiff.

We talked about it, she's talking to an audience of one. I had that feeling also with the Hexeth confirmation hearing yesterday. She, in particular, was trying to be very careful and kept trying to avoid this, but she was clearly lying. She wasn't going to clause. She was not going to say, Joe Biden on the 2020 election, she was not going to rule out prosecuting anyone. You saw that over and over again where she's somehow trying to walk this walk that will keep the President supporting her but not get her into a deeper trouble in terms of It's an amazing testament to our politics today.

Yeah. I guess the question is, what does it suggest about her fealty towards Trump as attorney general? I want to play another piece of sound where that sense of loyalty is even more pronounced It's an exchange between Ted Cruz and Pam Bondi today. Let's take a listen.

The last four years, we've seen Donald Trump indicted and prosecuted not once, not twice, not three times, but four separate times.

To of assassination attempts, Senator.

These prosecutions were brought because partisan prosecutors were terrified that the American people would do exactly what they did in November of 2024 and vote to reelect Donald J.

Trump.

By 77. 3%, million Americans. 77. 3 million Americans.

I mean, did they rehearse it? I've never seen anything like that, where you have literally a call and response between a Republican senator and a nominee all in service of the President-elects ego.

Particularly for attorney general. And since Watergate, the attorney general is supposed to be independent, you have to have a law enforcement official that's doing investigations based on facts, not on what the President who appointed them wants them to do. The problem for her is that Trump, whether he believes it or it's just politics, he wants Liz Cheney investigated. He wants Jack Smith investigated. She's on a mission impossible. Jeff Sessions had the same problem. Fire Mueller, and he wouldn't do it, and he was forced out eventually. Bill Barr, investigate the 2020 election, back up my fraud claims. Bill Barr doesn't do it, and he's forced So people who worked in the first Trump administration, the Justice Department have told me this is the conundrum. She's supposed to have facts to actually convict people in court, and they don't exist. This is what current people say, Biden administration, in the Justice Department. We'll see how she tries to navigate this for the next several years, but it's going to be difficult. How does she please Donald Trump and have facts in a court of law?

Yeah, the pressure on her is going to be enormous. What strikes me also in this moment is the degree to which it is a fait a complete that she will be confirmed. Democrats are doing their best to draw attention to her controversial positions from 2020 and her positions now, or at least her worldview as it comes to an enemy's list and the punishment of political adversaries. But by virtue of the fact that she's not Matt Gates and that she's actually a lawyer, it seems like that's enough. The bar here is so extraordinarily low.

What was fascinating was that the name that kept coming up in the hearing today was Cash Patel. Yeah. Who does have an enemy's list, who published a book in 2023 that listed 60 people that were part of what he said was the executive branch Deep State. He talked over and over again in this book, I read his whole book, about the criminals in the Deep State, that there's the secret plot by bureaucrats. Look, Ronald Reagan would complain that too many people in the government, the government's too big. This is completely different. These bureaucrats are plotting treason to undermine the President, and they need to be criminally investigated. Again, she's in this hot seat. What will she be able to deliver? What will be enough for President Trump?

Well, and I would imagine you report so essentially on the Department of Justice. I cannot imagine what the mood inside is there. Given the fact that she's already claimed we're going to investigate the investigators. David Road, thank you for coming and talking with me about yet another extraordinary day in the Trump confirmation news cycle. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Still ahead tonight. As major companies continue to roll back their diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives before Trump takes office next week, there is at least one company that is bucking that trend. Which company is it? Look at our graphics. Just giving it up early. But stay tuned. Stay with us. There's a lot more on this next.

I think a lot of the corporate world is pretty culturally neutered. The masculine energy, I think, is good.

Obviously, society has plenty of that, but I think corporate culture was really trying to get away from it.

It's one thing to say we want to be welcoming and make a good environment for everyone, I think it's another to basically say that masculinity is bad.

I just think we swung culturally to that part of the spectrum where it's all like, okay, masculinity is toxic. We have to get rid of it completely.

That was Metta CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, trashing diversity, equity, and inclusion policies, claiming that they've gone too far and neutered the corporate environment. This comes as Zuckerberg just axed DEI programs at his company Metta. Last week, the company got rid of its entire diversity team and ended all equity and inclusion programs. Fellow tech Titans Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk have also recently renounced diversity programs as they curry favor with the incoming President, who, of course, railed against DEI initiatives on the campaign trail. It may come as no surprise that all three tech moguls will sit on stage with Trump at his inauguration next week. Now, it should be said a number of companies have been rolling back diversity diversity programs ahead of Trump's second term. Walmart, Boeing, John Deere, and others have all rolled back their DEI efforts. But there is one notable exception, Costco. That company is not only keeping its DEI programs, Costco is defending those programs as good for business. According to Costco's Board of Directors, diversity helps attract talent and also innovate products. In a note urging shareholders to reject a proposal that would undermine DEI, the Board of Directors wrote, Our commitment to an enterprise rooted in respect and inclusion is appropriate and necessary.

If you like that, also keep in mind that as an added benefit, you can also buy over 150 Oreos at Costco for under $15. That's our show for tonight.

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