Transcript of Johnson swaps out House Intel chair for Trump loyalist, raising national security concerns

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It was 2016, and Donald Trump had just become the presumptive Republican nominee for President. The owner of one of America's biggest newspapers was explaining to the world why he bought that newspaper in the first place.

I've always believed, and I think a lot of us... It's not a rare belief. I think a lot of us believe this, that democracy dies in darkness, that certain institutions have a very important role in making sure that there is light. I think the Washington Post has a seat, an important seat to do that because we happen to be located here in the capital city of the United States of America.

Democracy dies in darkness. Those words officially became the Washington Post's slogan in 2017. There was little ambiguity about its meaning. The Post saw itself as a force that would hold truth to power shine a light on corruption in Washington, where a notoriously corrupt billionaire had just entered office. By 2019, the Post was running an ad during the Super Bowl claiming that the nation was threatened and that journalism would help keep us free. That is what democracy dies in darkness was supposed to mean. Now, today, that is still technically the paper slogan, but there is a whole lot more ambiguity. This week, executives at the Washington Post, again, owned by Jeff Bezos, announced that the paper was releasing a new mission statement to guide its journalism. That mission statement, riveting storytelling for all of America. Riveting storytelling for all of America. Here's how the New York Times describes the Post's new mission. Mr. Bezos has expressed hopes that the Post would be read by more blue-collar Americans who live outside coastal cities. He has also said that he is interested in expanding the Post's audience among Conservatives. Now, to be clear, an effort to reach a bigger audience is not necessarily nefarious.

But this all seems to be part of a broader reorientation of the Washington Post. As proof of that, also this week, a group of more than 400 journalists at the Post sent Mr. Bezos an open letter, citing their concerns about the emerging editorial direction of the paper. All of that post-termoil is happening amid really an unprecedented effort by Bezos Bezos and other billionaires to flatter the same man many of these journalists, many of these same journalists and businessmen once thought needed to be held accountable. This week, we learned that Donald Trump's inauguration will be attended by a posse of some of the world's richest men. Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Mark Zuckerberg will all be in attendance, along with OpenAI CEO Sam Altman and TikTok CEO Sho-Chu. Many of those same billionaires have lavished Trump with seven-figure other nations. Just for context, here was the scene at Trump's first inauguration, hopefully annotated by the New York Times. A handful of America's elites were certainly in attendance then as well. People like Republican mega donors Sheldon and Miriam Adelson, in History Titan, Carl Icahn, oil and gas magnate, Harold Ham, and financier, Louis Eisenberg. But for the most part, those were all people who had either spent decades in Republican politics or were long-time friends of the Trumps or were said to be members of the incoming Trump administration.

None of them came close to matching the networth of the tech billionaires who were set to attend Trump's second inauguration, a group whose collective wealth is nearly $900 billion, that is billion with a B, and also happens to be greater than the GDP of most nations on this planet. But concentrated wealth isn't the only thing that gives Trump's new Billionaire Voice Club unprecedented power. That same handful of billionaires also still maintains an oligopoly over America's information ecosystem, controlling nearly every major social media platform in this country. Monday's inauguration will be a striking symbol, not just of the concentration of power in America, but how that concentrated power has so quickly rushed to align itself with an autocratically inclined president-elect. Last night, in his final address to the nation, President Biden issued a dire warning. I want to warn the country of some things that give me great concern.

That's the dangerous concentration of power in the hands of a very few ultra- wealthy people.

The dangerous consequences if their abuse of power is left unchecked.

Today, an oligarchy is taking shape in America of extreme wealth, power, and influence that literally threaten our entire democracy, our basic rights and freedoms and a fair shot for everyone to get ahead.

Biden went on to warn about what he called a new tech industrial complex, citing the rise of misinformation, an institutional disregard for facts, and the crumbling of a free press, and all of it at the hands of a few wealthy billionaires. It could not be more clear that the people Biden was warning the country about are the very people who will be standing behind Donald Trump on that inaugural stage in just four days' time. Joining me now are Tim Miller, host of the Bullwork podcast, and the great, just inimitable, Stephanie Rule, host of the 11th Hour. It's great to have you both here. Steph, thank you for coming in early, I guess. Well, to set, not work. First off, the relationship here between Donald Trump and the business world, specifically these tech CEOs. I love looking in that inaugural photo from 2016 because it's a new day. Can you talk about how the relationship between the tech world and Trump world has changed in the intervening nine years? Well, we have to be clear, there's huge money in all politics.

Kamala Harris raised just under a gazillion dollars for her campaign. That's an official estimate. You're right. That's not new. But we have to take all of this back to the Citizens United decision. We're wondering what's going on now? What we're looking at is unlimited corporate dollars in politics, and we're seeing it come to fruition. Think about these specific people, the three richest men in the world. You've got Jeff Bezos, you've got Elon Musk, you've got Mark Zuckerberg. They are not just, Yeah, we got to play ball. We want to do business with the President. That makes sense for their businesses. But think about what they care about, artificial intelligence, communications, government contracts, obviously, space exploration. The businesses that they are in require so much regulation, and the influence they can have in the next four years is so enormous that these guys could end up with more zeros next to their names than you or I can count. Right now, it's the American people that have to say, Are my lawmakers making decisions for me or these people? Think about the fact that Facebook, in just a few months, has a huge FTC trial coming up.

Is that going to happen? Is it going to disappear? They have issues with foreign governments. Could Donald Trump help them with that? We all need to collectively pay attention to that. Rich people have always gone to inaugurations. They have always spent their time trying to get direct lines into white houses. That's true of every president and every rich person out there forever. But this, this having not just a bat phone that you can call directly to the President, that Elon Musk might have an office in the Eisenhower building. Pay attention, boys and girls.

Yeah, and they yield enormous influence, right? This isn't just rich people who have lucrative companies. These are people who control the spread of information and misinformation in America.

Alex, artificial intelligence is going to change every element of the way that we live in the next decade. How it is regulated will mean everything. Do you actually think that Donald Trump has a huge position on AI? He absolutely does not. But imagine that these three people, they sure do.

Tim, I think taking into account everything that Steph outlines, there's also the strange cultural handshake between what is this new anti-woke tech bro culture, most recently iterated by Mark Zuckerberg, his strange curly hair, gold chain, and newly masculine identity, I guess. I find it a weirdly uneasy relationship. Relationship. Mark Zuckerberg says, Masculine culture has been eradicated from C-suites. We need to bring it back. The cancel culture, the wokeness, the PC, blah, blah, blah, the diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. Let us remind the country that this is a bunch of wealthy coastal tech elites who have somehow now found a home in the party of Donald Trump's blue collar, the party of Steve Bannon. I wonder how awkward you feel this alliance is or whether it's built to last.

Well, a lot there. I want to start by just saying I'm so happy to be on with Steph because I needed a laugh this week thinking about the darkness of these guys taking over the government and Steph talking about how she finds herself more masculine than the madeover, Mark Zuckerberg.

I'm way more of a dude than he is.

She's bringing more masculine energy to set than he is. I didn't see a lie in there. Anyway, I appreciate that. I'm glad we're on together to do a little cultural analysis as well. But as far as the politics of this, honestly, in seriousness, the fact that these guys seem red-pilled makes this all even more alarming. To Steph's point, it's not a new story that rich people try to cozy up to government officials because they want to get a good deal. There's certain levels of this that are acceptable or normal. There's some that are corrupt or over the top, and we can hash all that out. There's some of that happening here, and there's certainly going to be some corruption. But the fact that these three in particular, but a handful of other powerful men around them, have not only cozyed up to Trump, have not only got their claws in him, are not only going to have influence over as stuff laid out, AI and all these other extremely crucial elements of our society, the monetary system, crypto. On top of that, I almost wish it was fake. It seems like many of them are genuine about it, and they are happy to have this moment that they can take out all of their grievances against the media and against the HR people and against the people that have complained that are their underlings at their companies.

Now they just get to be their worst selves, and they can let their worst selves run free across our biggest communications platforms. To me, that makes us even more alarming than just the corruption element of it.

Can you talk to that Steph? Because Mark Andreessen has been out there basically talking about his vocalizing is discussed at the left, how they demand you donate all your money at the end of your life, your money that you've worked so hard to amass that you're being publicly shamed for wanting to be a capitalist, essentially. Have you sensed in the last, let's call it 10 years, that there was this bubbling insurrection coming from the tech world, from the business world, that the Democrats didn't have their ear to the ground enough, I guess, to understand the resentment that was building that seems to have found a house in Donald Trump's MAGA World?

I think it's more than just Donald Trump's MAGA World. I think you could talk to a lot of people in Fortune 500 companies, people in C-suites, and definitely labor in the last four years got a lot more power. Most, not most, most CEOs that I speak to in the last four years sure as hell would like their employees to come back five days a week. That's not a surprise. We work at a company that would certainly like its employees to come back five days a week. I'm here four days. But we also know that... I mean, to the office. They're done with work home. And while lots of companies say, yes, diversity, equity, inclusion, they're really happy about it. However, many CEOs, not these guys, would say it became something we were talking about every possible minute. That's exhausting. But the level that they are taking this to is nonsense. Yesterday, the FT had this article. This one was really about Wall Street. Wall Street is excited for this new business environment under Donald Trump. There's business reasons why they feel good about it. The Fortune 500 All did not like Lena Khan. They didn't feel good about Gary Gensler.

They didn't feel like America was open for business. However, there was a quote in the FT article from a very brave anonymous senior banker who said, Finally, we get to go back. We can start using the R-word and the P-word in the office. It's a new dawn. Well, my message to that very brave and very bold banker who is anonymous, Give me a break. That is not coming back to any company in America. No company that respects itself. It's not that there's a dying need that we want to get back to misogyny. That's just stupidity. The level they're taking this to is simply too far. But yes, the pendulum is set to swing back somewhat. Lots of people feel like, You know what? We got too worked up about things. I'm not going to say the word woke because I think that's silly. But there is an element of it. But where they are, it makes no sense.

It's somewhere else. Yes. I wonder, Tim, when we talk about... Trump wrote it back into office on this populace message, right? It's glaringly obvious it's been announced that the people on the dias with him on January 20th are going to be the three richest people and among the richest people in the country, in the world. It is not a secret that days or maybe a few weeks after he has inaugurated, Trump is going to enact tax cuts that benefit the ultra wealthy. How have Democrats not figured out that this should be an integral part of the messaging in 2025?

Before he does, can I just remind you, across the street is Radio City Music Hall. Joe Biden threw a fundraiser there that was 50 grand a ticket. The Trump campaign lit itself on fire over the elitism. Now, look who is going to the inauguration. The CEO of TikTok, a Chinese-owned company. This guy is going to be sitting right behind Trump. Two weeks ago, both Joe Biden and Donald Trump said, A Japanese company can't buy US steel. We're living in a topsy-turvy world.

Tim, do you feel like there is an opportunity here to unveil the real focus of the Trump administration, at least in terms of what we understand to be Trump's personal priorities, which is the amassing and retention of wealth at the very top of American society?

Yeah. Is the forgotten man not going to be there on the dias? I don'tI don't have any random people from Harlem, Kentucky on the dias there? I guess not. Obviously, the rubber is going to meet the road on this. We're already seeing this in the Musk and Banon feud. The question is where and how. I think the Democrats are learning the political potential salience here and the fact that the President's farewell speech last night was talking about the oligarch class. That was not part of the message during the campaign. So this is not to relitigate the campaign, but you can see the change already happening during this brief transition period. I think that is going to be a wedge that the Democrats have to try to drive here. I think that they're going to have a halo effect for a little while, for about 100 days or so. I think it'll be important for the opposition to make sure everybody knows in big flashing lights that it's the richest people in the world that are getting what they want out of this administration, not the people in the hollowed-out community of Springfield.

Do you think Elon Musk holds the Bible for Trump? I'm saying that graciously, but really, really.

We'll soon find out.

We sure will. Tim Miller, Stephanie Rule, my friends, my colleague, thank you guys both for joining me this Thursday night. I appreciate you. Coming up, Rudy Giuliani agrees to a settlement in his defamation lawsuit with Georgia election workers without giving up any of his real estate or fancy jewels. Where exactly did the cash-strapped former mayor get the funds? We're going to discuss that. But first, the purge is on. The Republican chairman of the House Intelligence Committee is stripped of his position because he was not Maga enough. We will talk to a member of the committee who spoke with the ousted chair. Coming right up next. Stay with us.

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I do think it's worth being very clear-eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

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You care about national security.

When you saw the insecure way those documents were stored at Mar-a-Lago, did it make your stomach turn?

Well, it's certainly of grave concerns.

Back in 2023, Mike Turner, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, criticized Donald Trump's decision to store hundreds of classified documents down at Mar-a-Lago. Turner had also previously criticized Trump's 2019 call with Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky, the one where Trump pressured Zelensky to announce an investigation into Joe Biden.

I've read the transcript of the conversation with the President and the President of Ukraine. Concerning that conversation, I I'm going to say to the President, this is not okay. That conversation is not okay, and I think it's disappointing to the American public when they read the transcript.

Apparently, criticism like that comes at a cost. Yesterday, House Speaker Mike Johnson invited Representative Turner to his office and informed Mr. Turner that he was removing him from a very powerful post as chair of the House Intelligence Committee. The speaker told reporters last night that his decision had absolutely nothing to do with President-elect Trump. But Turner himself told CBS News the opposite, that in their meeting, Speaker Johnson had specifically cited concerns from Mar-a-Lago as the reason for Turner's removal. If that is true, and Trump did to play a direct role in ousting the chair of the Intelligence Committee, then we are in uncharded territory. House speakers have never taken direction from the White House on important Congressional decisions like these. Late this afternoon, Johnson announced a new chairman of the panel, Arkansas Republican Rick Crawford. Joining me now is Congressman Roger Chris Morthy, Democrat from Illinois, and a member of the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman, thank you for being here tonight. First, let me just, what has been the reaction among Democrats on the committee about what looks a lot like a purge.

It sure does. It was outrageous. Committee Democrats and Republicans are shocked by what happened. It was clearly a move from Mar-a-Lago. This was meant to purge him for not only what you talked about in your setup piece, but also his vocal advocacy for Ukraine. This was something that he was passionate about. I know Mike well. We are friends. We disagree on a lot things. But one thing that he is very, very strong on is making sure that we have a bipartisan intelligence committee approach to holding the intelligence community accountable. One of those subjects that we That's what they're constantly talking about is Ukraine, and that's something that Donald Trump, obviously, was very, very upset about.

Nbc news is reporting. A Republican lawmaker who spoke to Representative Turner, spelled out how the former chairman could make life difficult for Speaker Johnson, who is under pressure to deliver for Donald Trump. Mike Turner did not vote on Wednesday or Thursday. I think Turner will burn the house down, this lawmaker said. He will be a no vote on everything. I mean, he just got totally left. You've spoken, I believe, with Representative Turner. Can you give us a sense of his mood right now, his reaction to this, whether this reporting is on point, whether it's going to be a problem for Speaker Johnson, who again commands controls the House with a very, very narrow majority?

Suffice it to say that Mike is not a happy camper, and I think that the way in which he was handled was completely inappropriate. The fact that Mike Johnson basically relied on his vote to become speaker and then to do this to him after the fact is even more galling. Now, I think that there's potential payback. I think that given that they're going to have rely on pretty much every single Republican to vote lockstep, for instance, for this tax cuts and jobs package extension and this big tax scam that's about to come down the pike in the form of a reconciliation package means that it's possible that someone like Mr. Turner may not be with them when they need him.

Independent of the fortunes of Speaker Johnson and Donald Trump's agenda in the Republican conference, I I think it should alarm everybody that Donald Trump is so singularly focused on the House Intelligence Committee. There is a lot of talk about Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin and the relationship they have, especially over the issue of Ukraine. Can you talk a little bit more about the reasons why Trump may be so laser-focused on this? He already has two of his picks, Scott Perry and Roni Jackson, sitting on the House Intelligence Committee. That was done, I believe, last year or the year before at his direction. They were not the typical... Members you would typically see on a committee like that. Can you talk a little bit about the work of the Intelligence Committee as it dovetails with Trump's interests or concerns?

Well, you're absolutely right. I think that, look, the intelligence community is charged with being truth-tellers. Members. They need to come and tell the truth in service of our country, not in service of a party, not in service of Donald Trump. Now that you have people like potentially Tulsi Gabbard or Cash Patel others who are going to come before this intelligence committee, it's even more important that the chair and members of the committee hold their feet to the fire. Now, if he has people like the folks that you mentioned, and he trumpifies the intelligence committee, it's less likely that they're going to actually hold these folks accountable. Ultimately, it makes our country less safe. This is a dangerous move. One last thing I want to say this, which is that I think that this was not only meant to purge Mike Turner, but it was meant to send a signal to other Republicans throughout the House, which is that your committee assignments are also in danger if you cross Trump. That's a very, very dangerous precedent that he set.

Can you talk about Rick Crawford, who is the new Republican chair of the committee? I know just based on his voting record, he voted to overturn the 2020 election results. He has voted against Ukraine aid, and he has served on the committee since 2017. What's your assessment of him running the committee?

I don't have personal quarals with him, but the question is whether he's going to be willing to stand up to Trump, whether he's going to be willing to hold people accountable, whether he's going to for instance, make sure that when Cash Patil comes before the committee, that he's asked the tough questions that he's inevitably going to get with regard to the FBI. We're going to see Mr. Crawford performs, but the fact that Mike Turner is not there is deeply, deeply disconcerting.

Congressman Rajahkrishnan Mourthy, it is really great to get your perspective on all of this. Thanks for joining us tonight.

Thank you so much.

Still to come this evening, a surprise in court. As America's former mayor, Rudy Giuliani, settles the mountain of debt he owes the two Georgia election workers he defamed. Only the settlement is raising a lot of new questions. We're going to dig into them coming up next.

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For more than a year now, former mayor of New York, Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani has owed the Georgia election workers he was found liable of defaming, Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss. He has owed them more than $145 million. But Giuliani has dragged his feet, refusing to pay Freeman and Moss what he owes them and crying poor until today. Giuliani, Freeman, and Moss have now reached a settlement for an undisclosed sum of money, but the settlement raises more questions than it answers. According to Giuliani's lawyer, this new settlement means that Giuliani gets to keep his 10-room apartment on the upper side of Manhattan, as well as his condo in Florida, his World Series rings, his vintage Mercedes Benz, and all of his other personal belongings. Giuliani himself released a statement today saying, This resolution does not involve an admission of liability or wrongdoing. What happened here? Joining me now is MSNBC legal correspondent, the great Lisa Rubin. Lisa, I mean, the law was on their side here, right? It was clear that Giuliani It was delaying as long as possible. I just wonder, I'll read the statement from Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss, We have agreed to allow Mr. Giuliani to retain his property in exchange for compensation and his promise not to ever defame us.

Do you have a sentence Do you have a theory about what they might have gotten out of this deal? Rudy's keeping all of his properties and his precious World Series rings.

I think the most important thing, most more word in that statement is compensation. The question is, where is it coming from? Because this is the same Rudy Giuliani who post-verdict famously filed for bankruptcy, only to play so many games with the bankruptcy court that he was effectively tossed out of that court. That's when the women began this New York lawsuit that led to the settlement today. It was because they were trying to enforce that $145 plus million verdict that you talked about earlier. Now, there's some risk to them. Giuliani was appealing that verdict, and it's still on appeal. The New York judge said, no, even though you're appealing it, you still have to turn over your property to them. It's likely that the agreed to accept a whole lot less than $145. 9 million, but in exchange for the certainty that Giuliani would stop appealing the verdict and that they could get on with their lives.

Okay, so this was make it all like, let's end this prolonged nightmare, give us the money and don't defame us again. The don't defame us again part seems like, I don't know, a risky element for someone like Giuliani who's not exhibited what we would call self-control here.

It's definitely a risky element, and it's also something he's already agreed to. This case was originally tried in federal court in Washington, DC, where Giuliani already agreed to an injunction against further defaming them. You might have read recently, or our viewers might have heard about the contemproseedings against Giuliani. One of those contemproseedings was about the fact that in November, on his radio show, he again defamed them, the two women, on two successive nights in November, and that's why they went to seek civil contempt against him. So they already had that agreement. He already violated it. Obviously, if they have an agreement through this settlement that he's not going to do it, there probably is something baked into the settlement to give them further compensation or further relief if he violates it.

So if he defames them, then he probably has to pay up. But this then gets back to that central question of, where did he get the funds?

That's a really good question because Donald Trump, earlier in the week, tweeted in all caps, a single sentence, Save Rudy.

There it is. Yeah. And to me- And to me- Apropos of nothing else, right? I mean, this hasn't been like he's...

This has been in the news, right? I think many people interpreted this as Trump's basically saying what's happening to Rudy Giuliani, in his view is unfair. Of course, if Donald Trump had ever paid Rudy Giuliani for the legal services he rendered in the first place, we might not be in this position. The reason that that verdict came against Giuliani was in part because he didn't even get to contest liability in that case. Why? Because a judge found that he was so obstreperous in his pre-litigation, pre-trial conduct, that it was fair to just decide that he was liable because you couldn't get any discovery from him. He wouldn't come to court. He wouldn't answer questions. The trial that was had was solely on the question of, Okay, let's assume that he did it. How much money does he owe them for it? He wasn't even able to contest liability because Trump was so stingy. This is one of those circumstances where... And Trump learns this lesson again and again, he learned it with Michael Cohen, too. If you just paid the people who did the work for you in the first place- It would be a lot easier.

You might have spared yourself a lot of pain.

Well, but it does raise a question. Because he's the incoming president, Just from an ethics standpoint, it opens up a whole can of worms about who is trying to do Trump a favor by saving Rudy, right? Setting even Rudy in his utility for an outside actor. This is something the incoming president wants. I could curry favor with the incoming president by bailing out his former lawyer. We're unlikely to ever know where the money came from, though.

We are probably unlikely to know. But as you and staff and Tim were talking about earlier in your show, there is no shortage of American oligarchs who are trying to curry favor with Donald Trump, even as we speak. Week, and many of them might be interested in helping to pay for a settlement with Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss to make this long-standing problem just go away.

When the collective networth of three people on the inauguration dias is close to a trillion dollars, $48 million or $145 million for defamation payments seems like a butter drop in the bucket. Lisa Rubin, thank you for helping me unpack yet another mystery from the house of Giuliani. I appreciate your time, my friend. Thanks for having me. Coming up, a special report on what one city on the front lines is doing ahead of Trump's return to the White House. Stay with us. 25 miles from Times Square is Floyd Bennett Field, a decommissioned airfield which was turned into a migrant shelter at the end of 2023. This 2000-bed facility housed migrant families with children for over a year before it was officially shut down by city officials this week. But from day one, it was also a battleground. Migrant activists criticized the facility for lacking privacy and adequate bathroom access and sufficient warmth. That was not the biggest issue, though. Because of who controls the land on which the facility sits, Floyd Bennett field became a prime target for Trump's promised mass deportations. Here's a special report from MSNBC contributor Paulo Ramos.

We're right outside the Floyd Benefield Migrant Shelter. We're in South Brooklyn right now. This is also the only shelter in all of New York City that sits on federal land. What that means is that the Trump administration could carry out raids here and can turn this into a detention center..

.

These are volunteers from Floyd Benefield Nabors, a group of 300 local residents who have taken it upon themselves to fight for these migrant families. Pushing New York City to shut down the tent complex and have all migrants relocated to safer shelters before Trump returns to power. We have to fix our broken immigration system. The shelter officially closed this week. Mayor Eric Adams cited declining migrant arrivals. But for families like Jason Gonzales's, asylum seekers from Venezuela, leaving these tents was crucial to dodging Trump's deportation threats. They arrived in the US only two weeks before Trump was reelected. They left this shelter with the help of the Floyd Benefield neighbors just weeks before Trump's inauguration. The relocation process starts here, at the Roosevelt Hotel in Manhattan. The city's central migrant to Rival Hub... Trump is about to get to power. They have thought on an emergency plan.. With Trump coming into office in just a couple of days, we decided to go check on Jason and his family at this new shelter that they were assigned to. We're not disclosing where they are because of security purposes.. Que tiene prometido el presidente Trump.

Aunque ese temor... Nunca se va. No, todavía existe y bastante. Se aproxima la fecha de toma de posesión y en realidad, en mi persona, estoy muy angustiado.

Lo que hemos escuchado es que debemos tener con nosotros los papeles de migración, alguna copia, todo el trámite de asilo.

Y eso es uno de la de la de la de la de Back in Brooklyn, the now dismantled airfield stands as a grim reminder of what's to come. Under Trump, even sanctuary cities may not be as safe as they once were.

Msnbc contributor Paulo Ramos joins me next to discuss all that. Stay with us. Tonight, the mayor of New York City, Eric Adams, is reportedly on his way to Palm Beach, Florida, to meet with President-elect Trump at Mar-a-Lago. Likely to be high on the agenda is the influx of migrants in New York City, something Adams previously signaled he would work with the Trump administration to address. Now, of course, Trump's solution to that problem is mass deportation. So what exactly is in store for the thousands of migrants currently residing in in very cities like New York. Joining me now is someone who has recently, and like always, spending time reporting on the ground to such great success, talking to asylum seekers right here in the city, MSNBC contributor Paula Ramos. It's just always a It's a good moment to have you here because there's always tumble, and you do such an incredible job reporting on it, Paula. But first, it feels like when you talk about these mass deportations, blue states, sanctuary cities are going to be the target. Can you tell me a little bit about the level of fear that you saw on the part of both migrants and the people who have been helping shelter those migrants inside New York City?

You mentioned we in the piece on this idea of what are sanctuary cities. The first thing that comes to mind is Eric Adams on his way to go see Trump. Then I think about Floyd Benefield. I think if we zoom into that map, now you see this migrant tent city in Brooklyn. A Brooklyn where Donald Trump received 16,000 more votes in 2024 than in 2020. Then if you keep zooming in, you see that this migrant shelter is surrounded by pro-Trump districts. Just to give people some context, now these districts are literally just 20 minutes away from the Statute of Liberty, a statue that then is overshadowing and shadowing over the sanctuary city with a mayor, again, that hasn't just signaled this willingness to cooperate and collaborate with the Trump administration, but one that is literally on his way to go meet him just four days before inauguration. I think that's the question that these migrants had. How will this sanctuary city that has always been this embodiment of immigrants, protect them from Trump? I think one of the things that is uncomfortable, but I think you and I have talked about this many times, is the way in which the migrant crisis fundamentally changed all these cities.

Not really testing what it means to be a sanctuary city, not just this physical capacity to take on migrants, but the moral capacity to hold on to these principles when this country is shifting to the right. I think that's the fear that you can't even rely on this idea anymore.

They closed down. I've been to the Roosevelt Hotel and done the beginning stage of some of this reporting where it's like there was a huge influx of migrants to the city. They didn't have places to shelter them. They create this tent city out at Floyd Bennett, and now they have to close it because it's on federal land and they're worried it's going to become a target for deportation rates. When you talk to the migrants who are being shuttled throughout all of this, there's a family that you profile, and their kids are taking their asylum papers with them in their backpacks to school. What is the emotional tenor of this moment for them? How are the children grappling with this?

The number one question everyone had, and Jason, who we're seeing on the screen, the one thing that's on his mind, and he told me, is, Will they separate my family? That is what everyone is thinking about. Will our families be separated after crossing the Darian jungle, which they did. After navigating the Mexican cartels, crossing the Southern border, they are seeking asylum in a country that is threatening to separate their families. I think that's what we have to understand. That's what's coming up. In four days, we're about to see Trump administration that's not just empowered, but will be completely emboldened. I don't know if you remember in 2017, literally within Trump being in office a couple of months, ICE arrest completely increased by 30%. Because I think that's the fear that people like Jason have right now. What does it mean to have this administration emboldened? What it means is that literally you're going to have local law enforcement pretending to be ICE agents. You're going to have ICE feeling emboldened to go into churches, hospitals, as we talked about, schools. If you're going to have a new DHS that will also feel emboldened to pretend like we're literally being invaded at the Southern border, you will have vigilantes emboldened to take matters into their own hands.

All of this will definitely be contested. There will be legal fights, but I think the point is that what they're trying to do now is inflict fear. Inflict so much fear so that people like Jason either self-deport or hide in the shadows. That's the strategy.

Does Jason have conversations with his kids? Are they aware of what is... When they say to you, We carry our papers in our backpacks. Is there a conversation happening? If they come to your school, you should do X, Y, and Z. Do you know if the kids who are going to be, who are obviously the most innocent in all of this understand the threats of this on the horizon?

I don't think they do. I had that same question. I don't think they do. They don't. That's something that I keep thinking about now. I think this country, you either understand or you don't understand the significance of what's happening now. But I think one of the things I keep thinking about is what Joe Biden said yesterday in his speech. It's not just this idea of who we are as Americans now, but who we should be. The question is, if you're watching this now, if you're just an American, what is being tested is not Jason It is not Republicans, it's not MAGA, it's not Democrats. It is Americans' backbone. How will we react when we start seeing these mass deportations and these family separations? Will there be this collective moral outreach or not? That's what we'll I've people like Jason.

Well, and I would say in the same way that the influx tested the moral fibers that connect us to one another here in New York City, I would imagine deportation rates could also bring the New York City community closer together. I mean, how much tension is there between the mayor who's down there kissing their ring at Mar-a-Lago and the people that are running shelters and trying to help migrants who are city employees?

I think there's an unspoken tension. We have to say even getting access into the shelter that we saw right now was extremely hard. The reason it was extremely hard is because the agencies truly understand that no matter who's in power, no matter what this mayor does, no matter if there's ice around these neighborhoods, people need to be protected. That is the tension that was really palpable, but I think it speaks to the moment we're in. What does it mean to be a sanctuary city?

We're about to find out. We are about to find out a whole lot. Palo Ramos, thank you, my friend, for the important and essential reporting you always do. You are a treasure. That is our show for tonight.

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