Transcript of The Shocking Reality of the Treatment of Christians in the Holy Land by the US-Funded Israeli Government

Good evening. From where I'm standing right now, I can see all around me in a ring seven Christian churches. We're not going to pan to see them. You can see one behind me, but they're all on the ridges of this valley around me. We are about 100 yards from the River Jordan and about 150 yards from the spot where Jesus, the Christian savior, God on Earth, was baptized by John the Baptist. Famously, the beginning of his ministry and the beginning, really, of the gospel temple. John the Baptist lived famously in the wilderness eating locus and honey. That was right here. We are in the Holy Land, but on the political map, we're in an overwhelmingly Muslim country, a monarchy called Jordan. That's significant, particularly now, because the question of how Christians are treated in the Holy Land is a political question. It is because much of what happens in this is funded by the United States, by its taxpayers, military action, but also the cultural and religious life of the region is funded to a great extent by American Christian churches. The question that we've asked for some time now is, what's the outcome? How are Christians in the Holy Land doing?

Are they thriving or are they suffering? The truth has become pretty obvious over the past couple of years, which is in Israel, they are not thriving. Their numbers are not growing, they are shrinking, and there's a huge debate about why. But the bottom line is there are fewer Christians now, far fewer in absolute numbers, and particularly as percentage of population than there were when the state was founded in 1948. There's a lot of evidence in the last couple of years, particularly since the Gaza War started, and the whole tone of the conversation in this area has changed quite a bit, and the rise of extremism, very noticeable, that those numbers have gotten smaller. In Jerusalem, if you follow this at all on the internet, you see video clip after video clip of Christian clergy being spit at by religious extremists, not Muslim religious extremists, but Jewish religious extremists. That's something most Americans didn't know happened, didn't think could happen, particularly since the United States, the most important Christian country in the world, is funding this. Anyone who's raised this question This show has done that. It's been dismissed out of hand as a liar or an anti-Semite, or best of all, a secret jihadi, a secret Muslim.

You must be a Muslim. And so we thought it would be worth coming here to find out what the truth is, or at least getting closer to the truth, the truth being pretty elusive, usually in political terms, but why not go ahead and talk to people? Why not go ahead and talk to Christians and find out their side of the story? Why aren't Christian churches doing this? Why aren't American Christian leaders like Mike Huckabee or Ted Cruz, people who invoke the Christian Bible to justify what they're doing? Why haven't they done this? We can only guess, but they haven't. They have funded the other side. So we thought, let's talk to them. We are about to play interviews that we just did about five minutes ago with two Christians from this area. One was born in Israel, one was born in Jordan. The one born in Israel was born, in fact, in Jesus's hometown of Nazareth. His father was literally a carpenter, which is hilarious. He is now the Anglican Archbishop of Jerusalem, which is to say he's the representative of the Anglican church, the global Anglican church in Jerusalem. Whatever you think of the Anglican church, it's not a small thing, and this is a very well-informed person, and you can judge for yourself whether he's telling the truth or not.

Our view is he absolutely is telling the truth. The story that he's going to tell you in just a minute is pretty shocking if you're a Western Christian, because it's a story of Christians being oppressed in Jerusalem by a government that American Christians pay for. The second person we're going to speak to is a businessman who runs a bank here in Jordan from a very prominent Christian family. If you're an American, you may be surprised to learn that in Jordan, a country that is probably 97% Muslim, Christians who have been here for, of course, 2,000 years, are disproportionately represented at the higher end of the economy, which is to say there's a large number of Christian families who are hugely successful in Jordan and have been for a long time since the creation of the state about 100 years ago. That's not something you're going to see on CNN. How would Christians thrive in a Muslim country. We're not experts on this, of course, being not that well-versed in Islam, but we thought it'd be worth talking to a sincere Christian, whose family has been here for 2,000 years, and ask, How did that happen?

And what does it tell us about our understanding of what's actually happening in the Holy Land, in Jordan, the West Bank, and Israel, which, again, is right there. We are 25 miles from Jerusalem. And so with that, keep an open mind, listen carefully to what sincere Christians in this area have to say about what's happening here, and you may find a story that shocks you. Archbishop, thank you. You live in Jerusalem, but we're on the other side. We're about 100 yards from Israel, across the West Bank, across the Jordan. How are Christians doing in the Holy Land?

Christians in the Holy Land, of course, have been here for 2000 years. Yes. Over the history, the Christian community has thrived in phases like declined in others. But I think now we are on the declining end of our Christian presence in the Holy Land. In general, we're still living our faith, witnessing to our communities, and also trying to maintain our presence. I'm sorry to say that because maintaining, because maintenance is not on the good side of things.

No, it's not growth.

It's not growth, it's not thriving, it's not accomplishing and achieving. We are custodians of the Christian faith, and Jerusalem is the capital of our faith. It's our spiritual capital as Christians. But to see the declining numbers of Christians over the decades, and especially since '48 and '67, we have seen challenging phases of Christians facing realities that we were not used to before.

So 1948 was the year that the political state of Israel was created. That's correct. And a huge percentage of the average population was expelled that year. 1967, the Sixth Day War increased the territory of the state, and the majority is now called occupied territory. Were there big declines after both of those in the Christian Christian population.

Absolutely. You can think about the Christian population, it dwindled into half in '48 because many people had to leave what is my homeland, like where I grew in Nazareth, in Galilee. Half of the Palestinian population had to be expelled to other places. And who became refugees. So when we speak about Palestinian refugees today, they are all coming or came from what is proper Israel today.

What I think most Americans don't understand is that some large number of those refugees who were expelled by force from their land were Christian.

Yeah, there are many Christians. Absolutely. Let me tell you something. Our congregation in Beirut, All Saints, is 90% they come from Haifa, Eqo, Nazareth, and other places around Galilee. Now, imagine of the Anglican community in Beirut are Palestinian Christians who come from Galilee.

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No, absolutely. I think there are many places in the world where people can use words that mean something really horrific. But I think that's demonizing. For me, that's demonizing.

Well, it sounds also untrue.

Absolutely. Because I think when you speak about Palestinians, I'm Palestinian. I'm an archbishop. Do I look terrorist to you? No.

You're like an I'm a significant, actually.

Yeah. I think this is, again, this is like a killing the image of the Palestinian people by claiming that they are terrorists or they are uncivilized or they are savages. I think this is exactly just pushing an agenda where they just want to frame you so that Palestinians lose sympathy in the world. That's basically what it is.

What's striking to me is that narrative, as you said, that image is being pushed not just by Jewish supporters of Israel, but in the United States, heavily by Christian supporters of Israel. Christian supporters of Israel in the US are dismissing their brother Christians in this region as terrorists.

I totally agree. There are lots of agendas, and especially many Christians around the world who think that they are doing favor to the Jewish people. Yes. I have really two to full answer to that. The first one is about Jews themselves. As we know, there are many Jewish people, people of faith, who see in these groups also as people who really don't work for their interest. We know what dispensalization… Let me just get that one.

Dispensationalism, maybe?

We know what dispensationalism is about. I know that politicians around the world, and especially the colonial thinking of bringing the Jewish people to the Holy Land or to the land of Israel, is something that can really fit both agendas. But actually, and we have We had this time and time again from many Jewish people who say that this agenda, eventually, for all the Jewish people coming to their homelands, becomes, again, a trap because they're all supposed to convert to Christianity. Or die. For them, this is an offense. That thinking of Zionist Christian thinking and that some narratives would be damaging even to Jewish people and Jewish faith. Now, for us as Christians, of course, it's damaging because think about like... Let me tell you a story, a real story. I once was in a community visiting England, and I was speaking about how some Christians who have Zionist approach to the whole politics and the agendas can be damaging to us as Christians in the Hoi land. They said, How come? I said, Because This agenda of money coming from the West, sometimes they enable people, settlers, to confiscate my own land. We have lots of examples in Bethlehem where money that comes from around the world is invested in building settlements on Christian land.

You know what the answer was? They told me, Sometimes we need to make a sacrifice for a better good, a greater good. Can you imagine that I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Christians told you this? Yeah, Christian. Somebody told me this, and I had a youth group with me. I'm telling you, they were in tears. They were in tears. How can a Christian brother or sister around the world take me as means, no matter what happens to me? How can I really reconcile myself with this? From this story, I'm telling you that these views sometimes are damaging because they are exclusive. I'm not judging Christian Zionists for their belief. They can believe what they want to believe. But when it comes to exclusion, excluding Palestinians, whether they are Christian or Muslim. I think this is where my problem lies in their ideology, if you know what I mean.

It doesn't sound... I think we can say that Christianity does not support support violence?

Of course not.

Of course not.

We condemn violence, whatever. Of course. Whatever it is. Of course.

And I think Jesus is pretty clear on that. Absolutely. Could not be clearer. So for a Christian to say, I support violence against other Christians because that's what Jesus wants. Does that strike you as valid? How can that be?

Indeed. And this is why we always said that Christianity is about bringing people together. It's about forgiveness, reconciliation, peace building. These are the values, the core values of Christianity. And if we fail as Christians to do that, to bring people together, we are God's people, we are God's children, whoever we may be. Yes, we have our beliefs, we have where we stand, but we as Christians, we know that, and we have been saying this all along. For 2,000 years, Christians have been witnessing to this truth from the beginning. That's why we continue to exist Here, despite the long history. Our holy sites are our anchor here in the Holy Land.

You are a Christian from Nazareth? Yes. Jesus's hometown? Yes. What does your father do?

No, my dad was a carpenter.

I knew that. I just wanted to hear you say it because it's so fun.

But we were also like, we are fishermen. So if you ask me what you do for a hobby, that would be fishing would be my- Amazing.

No, it's just, I mean, you are a Christian from Nazareth in Galilee. Amazing. Compare Nazareth, its Christian population, to your childhood to now. Are there more Christians in Nazareth now or if you No, they are.

If they aren't fewer, let me say, 50 years ago, I think they have not grown. Especially recently, in the last maybe two decades, we have seen an exodus of Christians, even from Nazareth and Galilee in general, due to many reasons. We are talking now what is proper Israel today. Now, in the West Bank, it's a different story because of the occupation, there is another narrative But inside Israel, today, there are so many pressures, not only on Christians, Christians or even some Jewish people who are also leaving the country for different reasons. Yes, I see.

How much aid How much money do Christians around the world send to Christians living in Nazareth?

Very minimal.

Very minimal? Yeah. How? Really?

The Anglican Church, of course, we have partners around the world. Especially in the States, we have the American Friends of the Diocese of Jerusalem, Anglican, and they're doing fantastic support. But if you compare the amount of money that comes to the other side, we are talking about a drop in the ocean.

Really? Yeah. So Christian churches in the United States send more money to, say, Jewish settlements in the West Bank than they do to in Jesus's hometown of Nazareth?

That's not a secret. That's not a secret. Everybody knows that.

What about Bethlehem?

Now, Bethlehem is a different challenge there. I don't know if you have visited Bethlehem before, but you would see that the city is surrounded by the wall, the separation wall that separates East Jerusalem, Jerusalem from Bethlehem. And The occupation and the wall that separates the two countries now, and also measures, huge measures of restrictions, of movement, and all of that is causing many people to leave the country. Now, I think, imagine like 100,000 Christians in Bethlehem, let's say 50 years ago or so. Today, we have less than 30,000. Really? Yeah. A huge drop.

Do they receive aid from American Christian churches?

Not to my knowledge. They might receive projects here and there, but substantial money to keep their businesses. I just want you to go now, especially during the war, the Gaza War, in the last two years, go to Bethlehem and see what is happening there.

I don't think I could.

The little town of Bethlehem is bleeding right now. There's no business, no tourists, no visitors.

I don't understand. So the American Christian Church is, broadly speaking, the church, Christians in the United States, is by far the richest in the world and the biggest. Why wouldn't they send help to Christians in the town where Jesus was born and the town that he grew up?

I'm sure that people may have different answers, but I think my answer would be the big answer, which could be shocking for some people. That is that they would be concerned that they send the money and it ends up with the hands of the wrong people. Let's be honest about this.

Well, let's just say, and I think that's a concern for everybody giving money to charity. It's certainly a concern for me in general. But if there's, say, a church, the Church of the Nativity, the one that the IDF shot people in, I've been there and it's falling apart. I remember thinking, where are the Christians around the world to support the Church of the Nativity on the site where Jesus, their savior, was born?

Indeed. That's why you will see- I just don't understand that. I don't understand that either. But let me tell you something, an example, like how charity starts at home. We know that Our King here in Jordan, King Abdallah, has donated substantial amount of money to the repair of the Nativity and the Holy Sepulcher. The same thing happened also partially with the Palestinian Authority. Also, There are money that came also from partners from Europe and other places as well. But the amount of money, as you said, and the charity that you think that could be given to the Christian community to enforce and maintain its presence in the Holy Land. You don't see that in ways that you could imagine that sisters and brothers in Christ, siblings in Christ around the world would be giving to their church.

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Moment. I think Americans watching this may be confused to hear that a Muslim king of Jordan is giving money to Christian holy sites in Israel and the West Bank. Tell us how that arrangement works. Why would that be a Muslim king's responsibility?

Yeah, There's something here in the Holy Land has been for a long time, what we call the status quo or the existing reality, especially on holy sites. On Haram Sharif, many people in the West call it Temple Mount, and also in the Holy Sepulcher, and the Holy Sites in Jerusalem.

The Church of the Holy Sepulcher is the place where Jesus's tomb.

Yeah, which is the Church of the Resurrection, what we call in Arabic as well,. For a long time, the King of Jordan, under the Hashemite custodianship of holy sites, the King personally is the custodian of holy sites of Christian and Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem.

So the King of Jordan is the custodian of both Al-Aqsa Mosque and of the Church of the Holy Supplicer. That's correct. And that remains the case today.

That remains the case today, and it will remain for a long time.

Even though it's extremely difficult for Jordanians to go the 25 miles over there to Jerusalem.

Then that's correct. I think people like myself and the heads of churches, as well as Al-awqaf and the shacks in Jerusalem, We will be the manifestation of the reality of that custodianship.

It's just so interesting. Why does that persist today? Is that a good arrangement, the status quo that you described?

Of course, it's not only good, but I think for us, it saves the character of Jerusalem, where the three faiths, both Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, can exist side by side without any problems.

Wouldn't it be easier just to hand the custodianship over to the government that runs it, which is the Israeli government, it's political capitals in Jerusalem?

That will be partial, and it will be exclusive.

How do you think Christian holy sites would do and Muslim holy sites would do?

Let me give you an example where the Holy Sepulcher. For different reasons, we for a long time, during Holy Saturday, which is the Holy Fire, one of the most sacred days in the Christian calendar, of course, this is the night before Easter. The restrictions that the police there enforce on pilgrims is unprecedented. It's something that we always please let the pilgrims come and enjoy. Now this is happening? Now this is happening every year. Now, yes, of course.

Last year, the year before. Just to be clear, the Israeli government is preventing Christians from celebrating Easter in Jerusalem?

Yes, they are preventing Christians and pilgrims to celebrating Easter. The claim is, according to the police there, for safety reasons. But we're telling them for almost next... The Church of the Holy Sepulcher was built in 300 something. That's 1,700 years ago. We have always celebrated the Holy Fire. We always celebrated and welcomed Easter. We didn't hear of somebody get banned or somebody got-They're Christian.

They're not terrorists.

Indeed. But now, under the Israeli law for safety procedures, they are restricting the number of Christians going into the Holy Supplicar, instead of 10,000, they are restricting that sometimes to 1,500. And by negotiation, you can get them close to 3,000. This is by miracle, if you're lucky. Now, again, for them to be fair, they're saying that for safety reasons, we're not allowing people in. And this is the discussion every year that we have this.

Are there similar restrictions on Jewish religions, observances in Jerusalem?

In Israel, generally, there are been some. There have been an incident in the north, in Maroon, where people, like Hasidic community, were celebrating a very famous holy site. The bridge collapsed and 150 people died. Since that time, they were restricting more and more public worship. I will tell you an incident as well. We're on the Mount of Tabor, which is the Transfiguration Mountain that the Holy Orthodox, the Orthodox Church celebrates every year. Also, there have been restrictions there because of safety, not to allow pilgrims to go to the Holy Mountain for the celebration of transfiguration. This is the fourth year in row that they're not allowed to pilgrims to go up for the celebration. Again, under safety restrictions.

Have there been, in your lifetime, safety problems with Christians celebrating Easter in Jerusalem?

Not to my knowledge.

So the US ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, is a Christian Minister. What has he done to help Christians celebrate Easter in Jerusalem?

I We are in touch with the American embassy, and we are also trying to ask Huckabee and also the staff in the embassy to help the Christian community talk to Israel in order to enlarge the numbers of people who celebrate Easter. Sometimes they are successful in raising the number, sometimes they are not successful. But again, the issue, this is an internal matter. Have you spoke...

Right, but our ambassador is very involved in internal matters in Israel. Sure. Of course. Have you spoken to Ambassador Huckabee?

Bleeding them from afar, but other heads of churches have spoken to him, yes.

But he hasn't called you?

He hasn't called me personally, no.

Have American politicians called? Since the US is funding a lot of this, have American politicians, Christian politicians, called to ask you what they can do to help Christians in Jerusalem?

We reach out. They reach out. They're especially talking about different issues. Let me give you an example. I'm trying to get to my hospital in Gaza, for example, and I'm trying to get permission to go there, but I'm not allowed.

To go to your hospital in Gaza? Yes. Why?

You see, I have an Israeli citizenship because I come from Nazareth, so I'm an Israeli citizen.

You are an Israeli? Yeah.

Well, yes. But at the same time, so basically, I'm not allowed in according to their calculations. Why? I tried to ask our friends from the American Embassy and other places in order to intervene, but the answer is no.

Huckabee hasn't helped you get to your Christian hospital in Gaza?

I don't want to blame Huckabee for this, but again- He's the ambassador.

No, I know. You have to be diplomatic. I'm just surprised that someone who is a minister isn't doing more for Christians in this region.

Yeah, again, but again, it's about my I guess.

Your safety. Would you feel unsafe going to Gaza?

Absolutely not. I've been to Gaza many, many times. Actually, two days before the war, I was there with bishops. We visited the hospital, and I've been trying to visit the hospital. Others were successful. Other heads of churches managed to go there, both patriarchs, but I haven't, unfortunately.

It's a Christian hospital?

It's an Anglican Episcopal Christian Hospital. What is the name of it? Al-ahli Arab Hospital.

What condition is it in?

It is now a condition that operates on minimal capacity I'm sure that people have been following. I don't know how many people know about this, but it was hit at least eight times during the war.

It was bombed eight times? Yeah. Why?

There are different accusations. Why did it happen? I suspect, say, suspicion about activities in the hospital. Every time we asked for people to prove what was happening there so that we at least know what is going on in our hospital. But Every time we hear nothing. Unfortunately- Were people killed in those bombings? On two incidents, there have been two big explosions. The first one happened only two weeks after the... Or even less than two weeks from the beginning. On the 17th of October, 2003, where a huge rocket fell, and it became really controversy. Israel accused Islamic Jihad for a mis-rocketed missile. In Gaza, they said, No, it was Israeli rocket that came in, and they were two narratives at that time. Anyway, but this is the thing that we- Do we know the answer now? No, I don't know the answer. People asked me, and I said, Do I look like a soldier to you to tell you what happened there?

Well, it's your government. You were born in the country, and you can't get a straight answer about your hospital. No.

Their answer was that it was a mis-rocketed missile.

But it was bombed seven more times? Yeah. Do we know who did that?

No. The other ones, Israelis, did that. They didn't comment.

Did they not know it was a hospital?

They knew it was a hospital.

Why would they bomb a hospital?

A Christian hospital. Again, as I said, They say when they do that, that there is suspicion of terrorist activities in the hospital.

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Now a boat is going to try to come around to pick them up.

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Now we know that. I think I just read recently that even the government admitted that there are 70,000 who were killed, which they didn't before. But I need to... Again, my sources are not 100%, but at least from our perspective, we have heard and we have seen that there 70,000 people who were killed. Many of them are children and women, not terrorists, according to Israeli categories.

Do we have any idea what percentage were women and children?

No, there are statistics out there. But I'm sure the vast majority are women and children.

Is it possible to know who can go to Gaza? At some point, I think it's fair to ask what happened over the last couple of years in Gaza. Are we ever going to know?

I'm sure that we will know in one way or the other. But again, I think the catastrophe that happened there, nothing will heal. Just by seeing the amount of destruction and the death that happened there, it just breaks one's heart. There are no words. Again, I'm sure that people will know who did it and why they did it and how did it come. But for us, the bottom line, there are people who are suffering, there are people who are dying, and that's the result of violence, which is devastating for us.

How are you treated in Israel?

Depending where you live, where you are, where you're walking. I think in many places in Israel, you are respected. There's freedom of movement. I can go in most places. There are places that are restricted to any civilian, if you know what I mean. But in general, I can go in many places. If I'm walking in the old city, for example, if I'm in my suit, all good and well, of course, the mosaic is so beautiful there. People living together, walking together. You would enjoy the suit. But sometimes, if I'm wearing my cross and my casket, I could be treated differently by some groups.

How are you treated?

I could. Maybe I could spat at, for example.

Has someone ever spit at you?

Yes.

Really? Yeah. More than once?

More than once. Yeah.

Why?

I asked this question, why? In many cases, I have seen that in many schools in the Jewish sector who have—this is the answer that I received—who have bad flashes of memories of persecution. The cross reminds them of persecution and expulsion and what have you.

So they're teaching their children that the cross is a sign of persecution and to spit on Christians? Yeah.

We know that there are so many, not many, but there are some. And these are French groups that we have, as heads of churches, spoke about. When there's vandalism of churches, when there is a spitting at clergy, when there is doing nasty things to clergy.

What nasty things?

I have to say that on the air. I don't know what to say, but they're doing really shameful things in front of church doors. Really? Yeah. I've been caught on camera many times.

Oh, you act like this. Everyone knows this. I don't think many people in America know this, to Christian churches and Christian clergy.

Yeah. And again, these are like French group of people who are radicals who live in Jerusalem. Their main mission is to purify Jerusalem from infidels Christians. That's their mission. And they say it out loud. It's on their website. It's nothing hidden.

Are you talking about Al Qaeda?

No, I'm talking about Jewish radical groups, settler groups.

Do you face vandalism from Islamic groups in Jerusalem?

No, not to my knowledge, no. We don't have in Jerusalem? Yes. No.

In the United States, after 9/11, we were told, in I think it was true that there were these madrasas, these schools, Islamic schools that were producing radicalism, true radicalism, against the infidels, Christians and Jews. It sounds like something similar is going on in Jerusalem now, and you're the target of it. Can you talk? I mean, that's clearly bad. Is there anyone you can talk to about this?

Yeah, we've talked to the police, we've talked to the government, and there are restrictions. The one thing about this that we were said that told that spitting on people is not a charge. We need to have a law that forbids this, or there will be a punishment to somebody who spits or something like that. There's no law. The people brought If you press charges, they bring them in and they're released the next day.

There's no law in Israel against spitting on Christians?

No, spitting in general, not on Christians.

But you can walk up and spit in someone's face for religious reasons?

No, that's something different. The spitting doesn't happen directly at you. If I'm passing, they would be spitting in front of you. But it's directed to you, but not on you person. They don't touch you. They don't touch you. How common is I don't have statistics, but- No, but in your experience, you live there. Quite often. It happens. I don't say on a daily basis, but it happens quite often. Even an Israeli channel did actually one time a secret investigation, and they dressed somebody in a castle with a cross, and they walked into the old city with hidden cameras. They caught one right there on camera. Then they spoke about it in Israeli channels. Good for them. Yeah, of course. Sometimes, quite often, they name things, but again, nothing happens. That's the problem. That's why we have insisted on talking about reconciliation and building trust within the community, calling the rabbis and the imams and the Christian leaders to teach their children about tolerance, about acceptance, and to refrain from incitement, an exclusion and alienation and demonizing the other. No, Jerusalem It's such a beautiful place. It's a sacred place. Yes, it is. But we have groups.

I'm talking about extremists. In every religion, there is extremists. Of course. We're not saying that only one. Our Christian history is neither clear or pure of- We've had some Christian extremists, for sure. Indeed. But that's why today, I think in the 21st century, it's important that we We consider a lot of our views, even as religious people, how we view other people around us. I wish… That's my prayer, we have always said, the Holy Land, the Middle East, Christians, Muslims, and Jews lived together here for centuries. This is not something that we knew that we're trying to understand how to live together or how to manage our relationships. But unfortunately, I don't want to accuse anybody, but outside forces have caused us to fight among ourselves. I've noticed. Unfortunately, that's how we see it.

So has the extremism in Jerusalem, just to restate, you were born in the state of Israel. You're an Israeli citizen, so you would know. Has it become more pronounced? Is there more extremism now, do you think?

There's more extremism, and I can see on every side. That happens. The thing that the more you have extremist group on one side, the more you have the response of other extremists on the other side. It happens all across the communities, unfortunately.

But right now, it seems like there's no Christian extremism. I haven't seen any Christian terrorism groups here.

I wouldn't say like, terrorist groups, Christian, but there are some who have extremist views. We see pockets coming up every now and then.

I'm sure.

But we as heads of churches, always say and talk to our children, Don't forget that you are a Christian, and you have to abide by our Christian faith. Any engagement in violence or military or ensignment is something that does not speak about our identity or our faith.

Do Christians serve in the IDF?

There are very, very few who do. Not many.

Why?

Why they do serve?

Why don't they serve? No, because- You were born a citizen.

They see themselves as... First of all, it's not compulsory for them. It's not compulsory for Arab citizens of Israel to serve in the army, and therefore, they don't. There are very few who do. Again, let's remember that the Arabs inside Israel, they are Palestinians. By origin, at least, they are Palestinians. Imagine, I serve Nablus, which is Shechem in the West Bank, the city in the northern part of the West Bank. I was responsible for two congregations there. I got married from Nablus. My wife is Palestinian. Imagine, if I would be a soldier in the West Bank rather than a priest in the West Bank, how would I treat my own people? It doesn't make sense. For me, it's just to think about the matter, it just makes me, I don't know, faint, maybe.

What's happening, a lot of attention in the United States has been paid to Gaza, some attention. What's What's happening in the West Bank?

In the West Bank, I think, and we have seen over the past few weeks, especially, and actually not only the few weeks, even during the war, the escalation of violence of settlers in the West Bank has risen drastically, not only to Muslim neighborhoods and villages, but also to Christian villages. Really? Yeah.

Can you give me an example?

Yeah, I can give you an example of... The two recent examples is one in the town of Taibi, where actually, you mentioned the ambassador or Hacabee, he himself went there to visit the village after these attacks of settlers burning and graffiti on walls and going into these farms to harass farmers who are Christian. And recently also in Birzait, near Ramallah, where we had an attack of settlers on a woman, they hit her with a stone in the head, and then they arrested her son after that.

Why did they arrest her son?

Because he tried to defend his mother. And because of that, he was arrested.

And these are Christians?

Yeah, he's Christian.

How many US administration officials waved in on this? Did Ambassador Huckabee say anything about this?

No, he definitely said something about Taibi. I haven't seen anything about the last incident, but he went there in person, actually, and visited the police.

But the most recent attack were a Christian woman was attacked by settlers with a rock to the head, and her son was arrested for trying to defend her. Ambassador Huckabee hasn't said anything about that.

I didn't see anything myself, but he could.

You would know since you're the Archbishop in Jerusalem, I think. I'm sorry. I just want to be very clear about his shameful anti-Christian behavior. I just want to be very clear about what I'm saying. What Ambassador Huckabee is doing is shameful, and he's going to have to answer for it. If that's my opinion, you don't have to ratify that. But it's shocking to me. More broadly, why would these attacks be accelerating? Why would there be more attacks now?

I think the less the IDF and the Israeli government persec those who do these shameful actions, which I call evil and sin, actually. Yes, of course. The more they do, that's the norm, unfortunately.

Let me just close by contrasting your experience in your country, Israel, where you live, with the experience in Jordan. Are there attacks on Christians in Jordan?

That question makes me laugh, first of all.

Well, in the United In the States, we were told that Christians are murdered in the Middle East by Muslims. This is a country run by a Muslim king. It would be interesting to know how many Christians are driven off their land here.

Quite often, I see on the TV or even in many reports, many people, when they see us in the street sometimes, a few people who see us in the street sometimes in Jerusalem or other places, they will tell us as Arabs, Please go to Syria, go to Jordan, go to… Why are you staying here? They ask us this question.

To you?

Yeah, to me and to others, any Arab. Many people will say, Why are you staying here? Just go to an Arab country.

They say that to your face?

Yeah, they would say that to my face. Honestly speaking, sometimes, and I'm saying that sarcastically, of course, I think about it and I think they are right because when I come to Jordan, I feel more at home than being in other places inside my own home country. Honestly.

How long has your family been in Jesus's hometown of Nazareth?

I wish I have my family three going back to the time of Jesus, but I think you remind me of a question. If I may paraphrase your question. He said, I tell people that I'm Christian from Nazareth, and they tell me, Oh, nice. This is really cool. So when were you converted? So I tell them 2,000 years ago. That's my answer. Come on, Christianity started in places like the baptism site here, like Bethlehem, like Nazareth, where the angel appeared to Mary.

Jesus is from Nazareth.

He is from Nazareth. Mary is from Nazareth. But it's ignorance. Again, it's ignorance. Sometimes it's deliberate, intentional ignorance, even.

It's all pretty amazing. Does that happen to you when you're in Jordan? Because there are, of course, holy sites here. We're at one right now.

Again, I said, I feel blessed where I am when I travel in my own diocese. I go to Lebanon, I come here to Jordan, my I'm also a Jordanian. I consider myself a Jordanian citizen by virtue of being responsible in this place for my community. But honestly speaking, whenever I come to this place, Jordan, Lebanon even, I feel like this is my home. I feel myself fulfilled because I know that I'm free in this country. I can be myself without worrying that I would be spat at war.

But Jordan is 98% Muslim? Yes. But you feel freer here?

I feel, yeah, of course. At this point in time, yes, I do feel.

Do you have a message to Christians in the United States?

No, I have a message, yes, to say that my dear sisters and brothers, in Christ and in humanity, I want you to think about these places as treasures. Now, these places, Jordan, Palestine, the Galilee inside what Israel today, these are places that actually embraced the descent and the incarnation of our faith as Christians. We need to preserve these places. We need to support the people here, not only Christians. I'm not saying we need to be only looking at Christians, but supporting people who live here because your support ensures the character of these places to be a safe home for all the people who live here, whether they are Jews, Christians, Muslims. That's right. Because we are all God's children. We have been living together here for a long time. And please, I just want to say a small example. If you want to pray for whoever whom your heart loves, please don't divide us by your prayers. Don't further divide us by your prayers. We We want you to pray for all the people of the Holy Land.

Thank you, Archbishop. I appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

Sad, thank you for doing this. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was even I was amazed to discover how many truly prominent Christian families there are in Jordan. A lot, and you're from one of the most prominent. What's it like to be a Christian in an overwhelmingly Muslim country here?

Christians here in Jordan have always felt really one and the same with the Muslims in Jordan. It goes back thousands of years, really, Tucker. It's always felt like we're really one and the same. Islam is very much an integral part of our culture as Christians here. Yeah, we feel very comfortable.

As Christians here?

As Christians, absolutely.

You went to school, a number of very prominent schools in the United States. You spent a lot of time living in the US, so you know that most Americans are going to be surprised to hear that.

Oh, of Yes. A lot of my American friends, when I first met them, they were surprised that I'm Christian from Jordan. And I'm like, What do you mean? I mean, this is where Christianity started, right? We are the ancient Christians.

Yes.

It's a bit upsetting for me.

Jesus was baptized right there.

Right here. I mean, this is a very special place, the baptism site. It's very close to our hearts as Christians, not just here, but all over the world. Can I say a little bit something about this site? Because we're here, Tucker. I hope you will. Yeah. So this baptism site. I mean, what most Christians around the world maybe sometimes forget is here we have the clearest manifestation in the Bible of the Holy Trinity right here, Tucker, where you and I are today. If you remember from the Bible, the voice of God. Yes. And he said, When Jesus is being baptized by the Saint John, this is my son, of whom I am well pleased, I think. Yes. And then the Son, the Holy spirit-Descend. Descend in the shape of a dove. This happened here. And Christ's official mission, right, started in Jordan. So you can actually make the claim, this is a biblical theological claim, that the mission of Christianity, salvation history, started right here. So of course, there are Christians in Jordan. It's just a very special place to be. I hope you've had some time to-I've had an amazing time.

I've been to this country before, and I've always felt comfortable here. If you say that in the West, people are either incredulous or they accuse you of being a secret Muslim or Shihadi or something, which I'm not at all. But I'm really struck that you said, Islam is an integral part of the culture for Christians here. What does that mean?

Well, look, the faith traditions are so similar. It's remarkable. If you look at the Quran, for example, the Quran is Jesus was mentioned 25 plus times in the Quran, and he was mentioned under different words, different names. So 'Eisa' is what his name is in Arabic, the word of God, That's actually from the Quran, the Messiah, Al-Maseeh. That's also Ibn Miriam, son of Miriam. The other thing that you might find interesting is also the Virgin Mary. She was mentioned 30 plus times in the Quran. She's revered, right? Actually, she was the only woman whose name was actually mentioned in the Quran. No other name of a woman has been... I mean, there was... Really? Absolutely. Maryam is the only name that's named by name in the Quran as a woman.

As the mother of Jesus.

As the mother of Jesus. There is a whole chapter in the Quran just dedicated for the Virgin Mary. You can see, and of course, the same prophets, many of the same prophets, whether it's Elijah or Moses or Abraham, they're in the Quran as they are in the New Testament and the Old Testament. So the faith traditions are very similar. So that's why the Muslims are actually very accepting of the Christian faith traditions. They are encompassing of the Christian faith traditions. So, yeah, I mean- And you're saying this as a Christian? I'm saying this as a Christian here in Jordan. Absolutely.

I'm at a disadvantage because I have not read the Quran. I'll just say that. But we have been taught for 25 years since 9/11 that Islam is inherently hostile to Christianity, but you don't believe that.

I totally disagree with that. I think hostility is a human thing. You find humans on all sides of the spectrum that are compassionate or hostile. That's a common thing across humanity, across the world. But to demonize one religion, to say everyone in that religion is hostile is an atrocity, Tucker, That's absolutely not true. I agree with you.

Did you experience discrimination growing up here as a Christian? Never.

I've never felt discriminated against as a Christian. Of course, there's people that don't sometimes understand the Christian religious tradition, and there are sometimes questions, and there are sometimes theological, of course, differences. And you can have a discussion about that and argue about that. But discrimination in terms of, I feel at a disadvantage to be a here? Absolutely not.

So your family, I think I understand this, is at the level of prominence that you're going to have to deal with the government at a certain point? Yeah. Okay. Of course. This is a small country. It's a monarchy. You've never had any problems dealing with the government as a Christian? No.

No. Actually, that's a great question. Christians are very well represented here, as you can imagine. They're really part of the social fabric of the economy and the political environment. Christians are represented in the Senate, in Parliament, in government, in the military, in the private sector, even though we are a minority. But the representation is everywhere.

You're a tiny minority, right?

We are probably 2, 3% at this stage.

I'm just guessing, but it seems like if you're 2 or 3% of the population, you seem disproportionately represented among the affluent.

Possibly. I think maybe minorities everywhere around the world, that's the case.

Yes, it is. Actually, that is true.

If you think about it, right? But I don't know. I've never measured that. I don't know if there are statistics on that.

But that's never been a problem, I guess, because you do see minority groups around the world, as you said. The Indians in Uganda in the '70s, or name a group, but the minority group often is disproportionately successful, and then they are persecuted for that. That has not happened here. No.

No, absolutely not. There's a reason I think it's why it is... I was thinking about why is Jordan a special model for that, of coexistence, of interfaith harmony. I think there's three things, Tucker, and if these three things are there, Christian minorities in the Holy Land, they will thrive. Number one is we have constitutional rights as equal citizens. It's in the Jordanian Constitution. Christians and Muslims here have the same rights, complete equality. When it comes to even matters relating to Christian affairs, whether it's marriages and even some civil affairs, there are Christian courts that are different from the Sharia courts that there are for Muslims. In that sense, there's this coexistence. But when it comes to, of course, civil and commercial and all of those kinds of laws, those apply to all of us equally here in Jordan. Constitutional rights are protected. That's number one.

So this is not... So Christianity is an official religion here?

Absolutely. I mean, yeah, in the Constitution, there's freedom of worship, freedom of religion in the Constitution. So very importantly, if you want to protect Christian minorities or any minority in that regard, anywhere in the world, constitutional rights have to be established. They were established here from the very start, right? When the Jordanian tribes and the Hashemites agreed to form a constitution, and they've been there since then. I would say that's the first thing. The second thing, which I really think is important, is stability. The moment you don't have stability, the first to suffer are the minorities. Are the weak, of course. Are the weak. Stability is so important. Economic stability, political stability, security, stability. That's why it's so sacred, actually, to ensure that there is stability in the region. I would say the last thing is leadership. We're very fortunate here to have His Majesty King Abdulla and the Hashemite leadership. I mean, truly, really tremendously fortunate because the Hashemites have always been about interfaith, dialog, discourse, meritocracy, compassion, mercy. I think When you have great leadership, stability, and constitutional rights, yeah, a Christian minority can thrive, and that's what we have here.

My job is not to talk of Jordan, but I've always wondered in all of your neighbors, I spent time in all of your neighbor countries, always say the same thing, how do you have this country with really no energy resources? It's not inherently rich. Absorb all these refugees from the creation of Israel in 1948. Enormous number, and then lose a huge part of its territory in '67, absorb more refugees, and then absorb still more refugees through the years, including from the Civil War in Syria, and now, apparently, are being pushed to absorb still more refugees from Gaza. I don't think any country has ever been under this pressure. This is for the outsider perspective anyway. How do you stay stable in the middle of all of that?

That's a great question. Honestly, Tucker, I ask myself that all the time. I think part of the answer is just the culture. The culture here, it's a very collectivist culture. It's a very tribal culture. For example, the latest immigration of Syrian refugees. We had, I think, up to 1. 5 million Syrian refugees during the Arab Spring.

This is a small country.

Yeah, that's on a pro-autobasis. It's like 40 million people moving into the US overnight. That's the scale of the... Can you imagine 40 million people all of Canada moving into the US looking for jobs?

I'm laughing, but...

And I should say for people to follow this because it's a boutique question. There's a lot going on in the world, but this is interesting to me. This is all because of your geographic location. It's like, you didn't ask for this. You just happened to be surrounded by these larger powers that decide they can use your country as a place to store the products of their wars.

Yeah. I mean, it's because it's stable. So People say, just move it to Jordan and let them deal with it. To be honest, it's been difficult because the host community, the Jordanians, they've had to share resources with the refugees. They've had to share jobs. We have very limited resources, as you said, Tucker, be they financial water resources, energy resources.

I've sidetracked my own question. The original question was, how do you absorb more refugees over the past 80 years than you have people, a lot more, and not fall apart.

Look, a lot of it is, again, Hashemite leadership. It's taking care of the refugees, using our limited resources to support them. My understanding is, especially with the last Syrian Refugees, we had a lot of support from the international community in the beginning. But over times, there's donor fatigue over time, Tucker. The news moves on, and then the host community is stuck with the problem, and then we have to depend on our own resources. Obviously, a lot of it is just, honestly, us. It's local tax revenue, government support. Of course, we do get some support still from international donors from the US government, from other places around the world. We're grateful for that. But yeah, it's tempting to let the host community to deal with this problem because the news cycle has moved on to something else, and that's a problem.

It's a question I'm interested in because from the American perspective, our country feels swamped with refugees, but no country, maybe in history, has been as swamped by refugees as yours. So it's just interesting to see how you've handled it.

I think people feel very much like the refugees coming in here. There's this moral understanding that we have to take care of our own. And just to give you a story maybe from Jordan's history, if you want to go back even to the time of the earliest Christians, because we're the ancient Christians. So we remember these stories. One of the Christian holy sites here in Jordan is called Pella. I don't know if you know about Pella. That was a city in the old Roman Decapolis, right?

The 10 cities that are referred to in the New Testament.

They're referred to in the New Testament, exactly. So Pella is in Jordan. It's a beautiful site. It's well preserved. That was the site of the first Christian refugees coming out of Jerusalem. Before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by General Titus, all of the Christians moved to Pella, actually. It's technically, arguably, according to archeology, the first Christian refugee haven, and that's in Jordan. I think this is This has been our history.

I did not know that.

Yeah, we're the land of refugees. We are very much the lander of refugees. That's a nice story. It's the same with the Iraq. I think when we talk about the Iraqi refugees as well, a while back, Muslim and Christian moved here. And going back to the point on stability, Tucker. So when you have... There was US intervention as you recall, in Iraq at the time.

I do recall, yes. I heard about that.

At the time of Saddam Hussein. And then the thing is whenever you lose, whenever there is a vacuum, that vacuum is always filled. And sometimes it was filled with bad elements. So Al Qaeda filled that vacuum in Iraq after 2003, which then, of course, later became ISIS, right, down the line. So all of a sudden, you had Muslim and Christians who were targeted. A lot of them came into Jordan. I know a priest, he specializes in really taking care of the... Especially both Muslim and Christian refugees, by the way. There's no selectivity there. They are here temporarily. They see themselves as being here temporarily until they can immigrate to other parts of the world. They receive financial assistance, schooling. A lot of it is provided either by the state or even fundraised by the churches, the local churches, until they are able to immigrate to other parts of the world where there's more economic prosperity and stability and jobs.

You're a Christian, you are 25 miles away from the most famous and important church in Christendom, and you've been one time in 50 years?

Yeah, I need... I mean, obviously, first of all, I can't just go there. I need a visa as a Jordanian. It's something that you You have to apply for it.

How hard is it to get?

It's a process, and you have to apply. I can't recall how difficult it was to get the visa at the time, but also there's some security considerations.

What does that mean?

I mean, you see what's happening there now. How comfortable would Christians be, or non Christians even, visiting the Holy Sites now in Jerusalem?

I'm totally confused. Those holy sites don't belong to the state of Israel, which is a political entity of very recent creation. Those holy sites are the center of our religion. They long predate by thousands of years the creation of the state of Israel. Why wouldn't any Christian have a right to visit his own church? Yeah, I agree. That's my perspective as the person who's paying for all this.

I agree with you. I think there's an angle I'd like to focus on here. The Hashemites are very much the custodians of the Christian and the Muslim sites in Jerusalem. I think maybe that if you... Alami Tucker, I think that's something that people don't realize is that a lot of the restoration work that happens there is very much funded personally by the king. I mean, the tomb of Jesus Christ in the Holy Sepulcher was restored by personal donations from King Abdulla. It says something. Wait, what? Absolutely, yeah.

The tomb of Jesus was restored by the Muslim king of Jordan?

Yeah, that's the king of Jordan- It's a surprise ending to the story, I have to say. He's a direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad, right? And he's the one restoring the tomb of Jesus Christ. And I think that's this interfaith story.

That's true?

It is true. There's another story on the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. I think it shows you just how old these traditions are in the region and how welcoming it used to be to people from all across all faiths, be they a Jewish or Christian or Muslim, in the past. I think, a thousand years ago, since Salahdin or Saladin, the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher did not belong to any of the Christian denominations because they couldn't agree amongst themselves. The Romanian, the Orthodox, the Catholic, the Catholic, et cetera. Ethiopian, yeah. Ethiopian. Like, who's going to have the key to the church? Actually, that key was handed to, at the time, Salah al-Deen. Even today, those keys are handed to a Muslim family. It's, I think, the Nsebe family of Jerusalem. They open the church in the morning, and they close the church at night. That's the... I mean, these are the stories we grew up with as Christians in the region, as Muslims in the region, even as Arab Jews from the region. This is the faith and the common faith and cultural tradition we grew up with here. A lot of the stuff that we see today is very new.

These are lines drawn in the sand by colonial powers that really destroyed that social cohesion and the social fabric that existed here.

My complete outsider perspective at the time when the official capital of the state of Israel moved from Tel Aviv, a city of recent creation, to Jerusalem, a city that, as noted, long predates the state of Israel, was that Jerusalem changed from an international holy site to a government garrison run by a city state, run by a nation state. And that's probably not good for the Christians. Do you think that's fair?

Yeah, I think Jerusalem belongs to all people, right?

It certainly doesn't belong to Bibi. It's not his. He didn't make it. None of those buildings was built by the government of Israel. Sorry. But now it feels like it belongs to Bibi. Again, this is my perspective from thousands of miles away.

Yeah. I mean, this is a city that belongs to all people around the world. This is a holy city, especially people of the Abrahamic religions, as we say. I mean, Another story on that is my grandfather. He was a merchant from Salt. He started- Where is that? It's actually... It used to be the old capital here in Jordan. It's very close to here, very close to Amman as well. It's an old city as well, Ottoman City, but also Roman City. Originally, the world is Saltus anyway, Roman City. But he started the trade between Salt and Jerusalem when he was 13 years old. At the time, it was, again, Ottoman Empire, so you could move around, right? Damascus and Beirut and Jerusalem, and that's what the merchants used to do. I remember, and he said, and I asked him, What was it like? The first merchant he met in Jerusalem, the first products he acquired and sold in salt was in Jerusalem. I'm like, What was it like when you visited there? This is in the '30s, the 1930s or late '20s, I'm guessing. He I said, Look, it's amazing. I'm like, What do you mean?

I'm like, Well, there were the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians together in the streets playing back common. Just one community, and you can't tell the difference. You can't tell the difference. And that's what they felt. They're all Arabs. Most of them were Arabs at the time. That's the Jerusalem I hear about. That's the Jerusalem I remember. That's the Jerusalem that I think all of us long for is a united Jerusalem, one that's united for all faiths and the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims. I hope, I'm grateful that we will get there one day, Tucker.

It's just interesting, and you know this because you spend so much time in the United States, that I don't think it would enter the minds of most Americans that a Christian could be better treated here in Jordan than in Israel.

I see the stories of how Christians are suffering in Israel, especially the Palestinian Christians. I haven't had the unfortunate experience of going through that suffering. But yeah, I don't think it's just the Christians. I think the occupation is an equal opportunity. Oh, for sure.

The I don't think it's primarily the Christians. But what makes it galling from an American perspective, I am American, I see everything through the lens of the United States and its own interests, is that America is paying for this. America is a majority Christian country. We can all have different views about what our foreign policy ought to be, but I don't think many Americans are in favor of a foreign policy that oppresses their fellow Christians.

I hope not.

I I hope not.

But you see the point.

Yeah, absolutely. My advice would be to the Christians that really care in the US is, talk to us. Talk to the ancient Christians. We've been here since Christ. We're here. Don't just listen to the DC experts.

So they don't reach out to you?

No. In fact, I think what I'm sharing with you today is something that's novel. This is not a narrative, I don't think, that you hear in the US a lot.

Ever. I feel shame listening to you, and I rarely feel shame, but I do feel shame listening to you that I didn't know more about this because I am a Christian, and I think we have an obligation to know what our tax dollars do to our fellow Christians. I just haven't spent enough time thinking about it. I think it's very odd that Christians in Jordan and in Israel aren't receiving help from Christians in the West. Do you think that?

I do. I do. I think it's odd. And going back to why the Jordanian experience is unique, remember those three things? Stability is one of them. If the Christians in the US and in the West, they really cared about the minority Christian communities here in the Holy Lands, if they really do, and if they don't, they have to really think about why they don't. I agree. I assume most of them do. If they do, they really have to think about stability. This is important to mention, Tucker, but possibly the most destabilizing thing happening in the region is the situation, Israel-Palestine, without a just resolution, a just resolution for the situation of the Palestinians there. It's just It's going to be even more destabilizing for communities in Palestine and Jordan, across the region, especially in the US.

How about the United States? I mean, 9/11, if you believe the 9/11 report was committed by people who are mad about American foreign policy decisions in this region, right here. You fund mass murder in Gaza, and there's no blowback to you. I think there's probably going to be, wouldn't you think?

Yeah. I mean, look, there's US intervention in the region. There's really positive stuff, and there's negative stuff, right? It's positive when it's economic and it's about- Jordanians are so diplomatic. I love that. Well, it really is. It's truthful. I really feel that. You look at, for example, USAID programs in Jordan. Of course. They were so with the water infrastructure that they helped us develop here with the education reform, all that stuff. Job creation, that works. Our defense cooperation, that works. But when you look at military intervention, we pay the price. Look at all the refugees that come into the country, and it has an economic cost and a social cost and a security cost and a political cost. I'm hoping that maybe President Trump, I know he called the Department of Defense, the Department of War, I really hope President Trump, I know he cares about peace. I really hope he renames it the Department of Peace and Prosperity, because if you want to have real protection of Christian communities here, you have to invest in stability. Intervene peacefully, economically, FDI. It's great for the US. It's also great for the region.

What is likely to happen in Gaza next? What happens to all the people in Gaza?

I mean, it's the genocide, right? Yeah. I wish I knew, Tucker.

With all these redevelopment plans, and obviously, I'm always hoping for order and tidiness and prosperity. I mean, I think those are all godly things. There's nothing... Those are good. But you have, I don't know, close to 2 million people who are there, and they're in the way. Clearly, there's going to be an effort to, I don't know What? What happens to those people?

Clearly, I think, that's my personal perspective. I'm not a politician. I'm a businessman, so I think pragmatically and morally about things. They have to stay. We have to rebuild their homes and their livelihoods, their communities. That's, I think, the only solution, Tucker. I don't see anyone that can accept, morally, Even politically, even just on a humanitarian basis, a forced expulsion of people from Gaza, from their native homeland. Of millions of people? Of millions of people.

That hasn't happened. You since the Second World War, so you hope it wouldn't happen now. But do you think that might happen?

I'm not qualified, I think, to answer that question. All I can tell you is if it does happen on our watch, all of us are accountable for it. I agree.

Yeah, I agree completely. Why did you... I know you want to say the fancy schools that you went to, but you went to prominent schools in the United States, and you could have stayed.

Yeah.

I'm sure all your classmates are prosperous at this point. Yeah. Yeah, from business school. But why did you come back?

I've always wanted to come back. Us was, for me, an amazing experience studying in the US at the time. I was there mainly in the '90s, right? Yeah. I owe a lot to my education in the US. It was a very meaningful experience. It felt like a lot of, at the time, this freedom of thought and expression, and then ultimately, conscience that you can have there.

Exactly.

That's very liberating.

The point of freedom of speech is freedom of conscience. I get to speak my values out loud, right?

Exactly. I felt that in the US when I was there. That was a very powerful lesson. But the intention was never to stay there. This is a very collectivist, again, society. Family here is very important. Community here is very important. To want to be part of that and to give back to that and to support that and to have my family and my children grow up in that collectivist environment is really more important than money or anything else, Zahar, honestly. That's how I'm programmed. I'm fortunate I can say that because I could also afford to come back. My father was a businessman, my grandfather was a businessman, so I could afford to come here and to explore my career journey. Some people can't, so they optimize working in other parts of the world. I have to be honest about that. But no regrets. I love it here.

Did you have family on the other side of the river in '48 or '67?

No.

Really?

We're very much Jordanian.

Always?

Yeah. My family is.

How many refugees did you get in '48? Do you know?

Oh, wow. I'm not on top of the figures, but I think there are a total of, at the time, I'm not sure if they all came to Jordan, but 6, 700,000 total refugees at the time. Some of them went into Palestine and Syria, and a lot of them came into Jordan. That's the total number, if I recall, if my memory serves me correctly. I'm not sure what proportion. I think the majority came into Jordan.

My last question is, where do you think this is all going? It seems like things are accelerating quickly. People are getting more radical. The maps are being redrawn. Huge populations are being moved around. I mean, what are we looking at here?

Look, I'm scared for what's coming.

It feels like a big thing. I guess that's what I'm saying.

I am scared for what's coming. There's a lot of lack of clarity, and it feels like decisions are being made in backroom doors by who knows who. Honestly, I wish I could answer that. That's the thing is, if you want to create instability, you create insecurity because nobody knows outcomes. I feel when it comes to Jordan, we have a strong leadership here. We have strong security and defense here. We have a wise people here. You've seen this is one of the most resilient countries, I think, in the world. I mean, who can come up and deal with the types of things that we've had to dealt with over the past couple of decades? I think we'll find find a way through it. But my concern is also for the wider region, at what cost. My only concern, Tucker, when you have US military intervention or any military intervention, If there is a vacuum, it needs to be filled. Who's going to fill that vacuum? And what comes later? What comes later might be even worse than...

I think we know because we've had 1948, who got hurt? Well, the Christians got hurt. A lot of Muslims got hurt, too. But the Christians, being a minority, got hurt. Then you have Israel-inspiring, pushing for the Iraq war. Christians' population of the country just basically evaporates. Then you have Israel pushing for the overthrow of Sadh in Syria. Minority religious people get hurt. Christians, not just, Al-Owaites, but lots of them. But they get crushed. Lebanon, bombed by Israel for 40 years. Christian population diminishes. So I see a theme here. Do you?

Yeah, there's clearly a theme. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's an anti-Christian theme.

I think it is. I think it is because what it means to be a Christian is if you really think about it, the most radical thing that Jesus taught us is love.

Yes.

And if something does not stem out of love, is it really Christian? No. A lot of what's happening is the furthest thing away imaginable from love that I can imagine at this stage, Tucker. Yeah, it doesn't feel very Christian to me.

Good luck. Thanks. Thank you.