Transcript of Rev. Billy Cerveny: Satan’s Attacks, Transgenderism, Seeing the Supernatural &Hearing God’s Voice

We've been close friends for almost 40 years, 39 years since the mid-'80s. And I would say you were the— I didn't imagine you as a priest.

I would say that makes two of us.

Then about a month ago, you godfathered one of my children. You performed the wedding ceremony for that child.

Awesome.

One of the great moments of my life. How did you get here. Like, I don't really know anybody who's had more jobs, vision. I thought you were going to be a philosopher, a country music star.

Oh yeah, well, brother, if you had told me when we met and we first started hanging out that I'd end up doing what I'm doing now, I'd have told you you got hit in the head.

Oh, I, I'm aware of that.

But you know, God has a sense of humor and a profound sense of irony, and, uh, You know, over the years I'd say it's true though, it's true. And, uh, it's a picture of his grace. You know, I, I spent a lot of my years as a journalist, as a— yes, and most of my professional life in the music business. But I was living in Atlanta years ago when I just started playing music. You remember these, those years? And I was living in this sort of converted greenhouse, a 400-square-foot apartment that the floor was still slanted to where they'd water the plants and the water would still run out. And I remember I had just gone into the music business. I'd given up a lot to do it, and I was not in a good place and, uh, really asking a lot of questions like, God, what, what is this? Like, who am I? What is this supposed to be? And I, I remember that room became a monastery in my life, and God sort of grabbed me by the throat, as I like to say, and kind of peeled back the curtain and just, just began to reveal things to me that about who he was and who Jesus was that, that I had heard my whole life, but they just never made sense.

I mean, I grew up in the church. My father was a priest. I was a—

he was a bishop.

He was a bishop. He was a bishop of Florida. And, uh, you know, it's like, you know, it's like walking around your parents' house and You see fine pieces of furniture that you just walk by so many times you don't notice them anymore. That's kind of what faith became to me as a young person. At least the language of faith and words like grace and forgiveness. And I had just heard it so much. I just couldn't understand the implications of them until I went off into college. And that's where we met. And those were the prodigal years, man, you know. And, uh, fair. Yeah, very fair. The prodigal was a wimp. We, uh, we really went for it. No, but we, uh, really did. And, uh, but God was faithful in all that time. But through the journalism and into back up to Atlanta, I remember living in that, in that apartment and falling on my knees and just saying, Lord, either you are who you say you are or this is the biggest lie perpetrated on humanity. And I'm going to go with the, you are who you say you are. And he began to teach me this, the truth of forgiveness and the truth of grace and what it meant, uh, to walk in Jesus and that what it meant to be saved and what it meant to have a relationship with him and to have a soul that was worth far more than trying to satisfy it with success in music or, you know, success in whatever field it was.

And, uh, I remember sitting there thinking to myself, God, you're this good? Like, are you this good? Are you this good? And just feeling him in my heart just nodding silently with me. And I knew in that moment my life was different. I didn't know what it was going to look like. And then when I moved to Nashville, I played music for a bunch of years after that. But during that time, the Lord just kept taking me deeper and deeper, and I started getting involved, used the music to go into ministry. And I did a lot of work with a ministry called Young Life, and I did a lot of summers, you know, talking to kids about the gospel. And during that time, I met my wife out in Colorado, and it was obviously a life-changing experience. And she's wonderful. And we began this asking a question like, hey, What is, what does God have for us? Like, where is he taking us? And the concept, the idea of seminary for me, I mean, it's like I said, you knew me and, you know, that was completely not in the cards.

No, and the context is even bigger from an outsider's point of view. Like, you are the son of a great man, of a well-known man, a big figure. I was at his funeral. This winter. It was packed, packed cathedrals. Like, yeah, it was a big, big man. You look exactly like your dad, which is also kind of weird.

I hear that.

And now you are dressed exactly like your dad. So it's like, true, that's kind of a— I don't know, it's weird to be the son of someone like that and you don't think you're gonna wind up being that thing, right?

Yeah. No, he was a great man. I, I, uh, but that is part of it, you know, to, to grow up in that and just to, to watch my dad, you know, he was a bishop, so I'd watch my dad process wearing a miter and all that kind of, you know, but he was just my dad. Yeah, you know, so people say, what was it like growing up under that? I, I don't know. I, I didn't know any different. And, uh, but I do know that, you know, spiritually, uh, as I grew and, you know, my father, you know, like any son, no cobbler's son has no shoes, right? Exactly. You think, you know, I'll figure it out on my own, and you, you leave. And, uh, but as I do what I do now and I look back, I'm humbled by the life he lived and the wisdom he had. I love my dad, and, you know, as you mentioned, he died, you know, a number of months ago. And, uh, I have such tremendous respect for what he went through. Now that I'm in ministry, I look back and I'm like, how did you do it?

How did you pull this off? How did you hold a family together? How did you, you know, sit in the chair that you sat in and lead a church in the way that you led a church with all the things pulling on you? And You know, when you have an adult perspective, it brings a lot of, a lot of humility, right?

If you retroactively assessed your childhood and said, oh, I wish I'd been more grateful—

well, you know, the thing about, you know, so my father was an Episcopal bishop, and the Episcopal Church is very eclectic, right? And so my house was this revolving door of different people. So like one weekend we'd have, you know, a monk come stay in our house. Another week we'd have some high church, bells and smells Anglican. Another week we'd have some, you know, charismatics you know, praying in tongues on our floor. And I remember, you know, sort of getting older and becoming a little self-aware and asking the question, like, what are we, man? Like, what is this? You know, but it was this beautiful picture in hindsight of the family of God and just how diverse it was and how many expressions that was. And that was an invaluable experience. And my dad, uh, he loved people very well in that way. He led people very well. And I don't— I, I tell you this, there's very few times in my life, or many times in my life I should say, that I would be somewhere and I would introduce myself to someone. It was not uncommon, some, some of them, to me, your last name's Cerveny, and they pull me aside and say, your dad, you know, telling me something that he did for me.

And I'd be in some random state, or my mother, who was, you know, partner in ministry with him, who's an exceptional woman.

Exceptional.

Yeah.

One of the rare people in the world.

This is true. And, uh, but that really, really impacted me, just thinking, one, from my own lens, that we want to live lives that are impactful, not just things that we— we don't want to just accumulate, we don't want to just, you know, try to attain whatever mental picture of success is. But what does it mean to leave an impact? To where you leave a place, or you leave a person, or you— that you say, hey man, these people are impacted with the gospel. And my dad did that for sure.

How would you ever wake up and put on your collar and think, wow, I, I've like— I guess all middle-aged men realize I've become my dad, but I mean, you literally have.

There's a lot of times where I will— it's, again, it's surreal, you know. I think being a priest or doing this, I think he probably had the same experiences. You're never— there's never a moment where you're not— at least I hope not— you're struck by the irony of it. Where you, you know what I mean? You put your collar on and, and you, you think to yourself like, Lord, you really are calling me to do this? Because I know me, you know. I know, I know the way I am. I know my, you know, the internal realities for me. I know where I've been. But that's, you know, much like my dad. I think that was very much in front of him most of his life too. He would always say what he did and where he was was just a, was a poster of God's grace. You know, he was a poster child for God's grace. And I never fully understood that until now that I'm as an adult, as a minister. I'm thinking to myself, I absolutely— it's a picture of grace.

It's got to be one of life's greatest blessings to really come to understand your own father. That's something that most men never get.

It's true. It's, uh, that's something all men carry is, you know, yes, the— spend a lifetime wrestling is the relationships with their dads.

And who was this man who was the center of my world? Yeah.

Who this reference point. And I think the, you know, we all of our lives, especially as little kids, you grow up looking at your dads as these superheroes and these guys that wear kind of a red cape. And then there's this moment that you catch up with them, and then you realize them, and you— and then you see your parents' humility or humanity.

Yes.

And you look at your dad and you see that, oh, you're, you know, you're, you're this paradox of, of, of greatness and brokenness. And I think the real— where the coin dropped for me was when my dad began to be able to share, like, these were the struggles of my life. This is where it was hard, and this is where God met me, and this is where, uh, he just owned his humanity in open ways. And, and, uh, directly to you? Yeah.

That's pretty wonderful.

It is wonderful. And I think that'll— that's a really freeing experience for a son.

It's a rare experience.

Very rare experience. Ah, yeah, it's good. I think that, you know, as father— you know, as you have children as well, and especially when you have a son, uh, you know, looking at your son, it's like staring in a mirror. And then there's moments where they look at you and you realize, oh, they're looking at me asking me what it means to be a man. And you have those moments, these sort of moments of existential horror where you're like, I'm not sure I know myself.

Yes, right.

And so most of us do our best imitation of what we think manhood looks like, and then we come to this place where, you know, I believe that, you know, to be a true blessing is, is, you know, we're not— our job as parents is not to create this picture where our, our children have to draw this perfect representation or duplicate what your version of manhood is, but the best thing that we can show them is, hey, This is what I— this is, this is what I— this, this is my version of manhood, and this is where I've screwed it up, and this is where I've erased it. And this is a picture of God's grace. My job as a dad is not to show my son what it means to be a perfect man. It is to be— to show him what it means to be an imperfect man in relationship with a God of grace, and to walk in ways that are, that are, I think, hopefully nobly and honorably and that reflect the goodness of God, but also that reflect the humility of someone that knows what it means to need a Savior and to say, look, we're not perfect, and let me show you, like, this is where God has stepped in and moved in my life.

This is where I've blown it, and this is where I've done okay. But at the end of the day, uh, you know, we all fall on the, on the mercy of God. And I think that is a gift that we can, like, like I said, with my own son, that's a gift that we can give our own children, you know, in the same way my dad gave to me towards the end of his life.

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And after you purchase, feel free to say you heard it here. I think it's the heaviest, most complex relationship in any man's life with his own father. Oh, I don't think anything comes close. We always talk about, or I always talk about, how difficult it is for men and women to understand each other because they think so differently and they express themselves so differently. And it's the great joy and frustration of marriage, trying to figure out what the other person is saying. Yeah. But I don't think it compares to the father and son relationship. I mean, that is hard and poignant, the communication there.

I think it's, you know, as men, we all, we have these sort of core longings that God hardwired into our hearts. You know, one of them is, you know, be part of something that's a story that's bigger than me, or to be in relationship with other men, or to, you know, feel known or seen and loved. But one of them is I think foundationally is this idea that we were created to receive the blessing of a father.

Yep.

Period. If you read the story of Jacob, like Jacob and Esau, where Jacob steals, steals the blessing of his brother, and the whole picture of his life is him going on this journey trying to, to, uh, satisfy a heart that has been denied this blessing of his father that would, you know, who showed preference to his older brother. And he had stolen the blessing which, you know, that was meant for his brother, and it ended up poisoning his life. And he goes and he amasses wealth and he gets wives. And he comes back and there's that famous scene in the book of Genesis where he, he's sitting in the woods and the angel of the Lord comes out and he begins to wrestle the angel of the Lord. And they go and, you know, Jacob pins him and the angel reaches out and dislocates his hip with just the touch of the thigh. And in that moment, he realizes that I'm not, I'm not wrestling a person here. And, uh, but he's also realized that this is, this is a picture of unrestrained power. And rather than him giving up, he says, I'm not going to let you go until you bless me.

I would rather paraphrase, I would rather be torn limb from limb than to go from this moment without the blessing of a father. And he, you know, that's where he changes his name to Israel. But I think it's a picture of our hearts that like we have, we We need that in a way that is foundational.

Totally agree.

You know, and the problem is, the rub is, and the problem for my children and yours and all of our children is that, you know, I'm an imperfect man. I can't provide that blessing in the full way. You know, I can't provide the fullness of it. But like I was saying earlier, that's part of the way we do bless them is that we let, that we encounter them as adults. And as they get older, we begin to show them the realities of our humanity and we point them towards Jesus and we do that together. And that becomes a profound gift to our kids as they encounter the blessing of God the Father.

I know that approval is just part of a blessing, but it's the part that people understand immediately. The approval of your dad, like, good job, son.

Oh, yeah.

That's like everything.

It's true. Well done, good and faithful servant.

Amen. Amen. So speaking of wrestling, there's a phrase that you hear a lot you never used to hear. Until about maybe 6 or 7 years ago, and now it's on the lips of every podcaster, and that's the spiritual war. You know, the famous Ephesians quote, we fight against not, you know, flesh and blood, but against principalities. And you're the preacher, you know the quote.

Yeah.

What is that and what are its manifestations? The spiritual war?

Yeah, that's a small question.

I like to start narrow.

Yeah, thanks. Yeah. You know, we live, you know, on this side of a curtain. You know, we live in this temporal world, you and me, and the rooms we're in. But, you know, we all think of ourselves as spiritual beings. That's a real common thing that people say. But, you know, we were fashioned by God as spiritual beings to be in relationship with him. And there really is this, this curtain that behind which there is an entire unseen realm that is God and the host of angels and all that. And the, um, much like here, it's a, it's, it's a world that is in rebellion as well. And, you know, the irony is that the world we experience now was, was never meant to be separated from that. When God created all things, he created heaven and earth to overlap. He wanted to walk with Adam during the cool of the day. He wanted the man, and, you know, as his His image bearers were to be in relationship with God in a very tangible way. But because of the way that, again, because of sin and the brokenness of the world, there's this separation that occurred.

But I think now there really is a spiritual battle, as you quoted.

But you said behind the veil, behind the curtain, the things we can't see, the unseen realm, is God and angels. But it's not a civil war. I mean, there, there's turmoil there. It's war, right?

It is. That's what the way scripture describes it.

And so who is the war between?

I think it's between God and, uh, you know, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and again, the Creator God. I think it's just in the way that God spoke all things into this world, into being. He also created a heavenly host. And you read that story in the book of Genesis with the serpent in the garden, right? You know, Genesis was where heaven and earth overlaps, and Man walked with God, as we said a second ago. But you see this, you see the beginning of a divine rebellion there. You see this, this sort of mysterious serpent figure, which is, you know, we later learn is this, the Satan figure. And he rebels against God because he is, he's, he's prideful. He wanted to be equal with God. And if he's going to attack God, if he wants to unravel God, what's, what's, what's the first thing he's going to do? He's going to attack his plan, but he's going to attack his image bearers, right? And that plan that you— yeah, people. And that plan that you see that he hatched in Genesis 3, it's still the plan that's happening now. There's a, you know, we— our war is not against flesh and blood, but it's against these principalities and these powers and these things that come, and they, they weigh heavy on us, you know, as he's a deceiver.

And, and, uh, Satan, Satan and, and his and his henchmen, his demons, and the demonic forces. And it's, it's very real.

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Of course, we're in the same college class. I didn't grow up in a world where that was considered real at all. And most people, I mean, you probably did because you're a son of a bishop, but I'm not a son of a bishop. And I just never even imagined any of that was real. Thought God was real, but I didn't think there were actually evil forces floating around unseen, impelling people toward self-destruction. I just didn't believe that. Now it's like the most obvious thing ever.

It's obvious to you.

I think it's obvious to like everyone I talk to, but self-selected group, of course.

But sure. I mean, what is, what is the old quote? You know, the greatest trick the devil played is to convince humanity that he doesn't exist.

Yes.

And I think that's part of, especially in America, you know, we don't live in a very, you know, we live in such a binary, you know, uh, culture where, you know, we don't, we don't think in terms of that, generally speaking. We do more recently, but, uh, materialist culture. Yeah, materialist culture. Well said. And, uh, but how does that play out?

Yeah, what are the manifestations of it?

Like, I mean, you can see them on a large scale. You see it in the destruction of marriages. You see it in the, you know, pornography. You see in, you see it in, you know, addictions. You see them, things like that. You're I find that I see those kind of attacks happen in the areas most egregiously, in those areas that God values most. So you want to know what God loves the most? Watch what Satan attacks the most aggressively. And what does God love the most? You look at, you look at the creation story and all those things that God set in motion in the beginning— marriage and ideas of masculinity and gender and, you know, the, the role of humanity in the world, us being, you know, God's image bearers to create a kingdom that reflected his glory.

Wait, I'm going to ask you to pause. So let's just go kind of through the list forensically here. So you said marriage, number one.

I mean, these aren't in a certain order, but I'm just kind of riffing about marriage.

Yeah, but the ones that come to mind.

Yeah, marriage.

And then that's explained as part of God's creation in Genesis.

Yeah, it's part of his creation mandate. Be fruitful and multiply. He created— when you when you read the story of God creating man, he creates Adam out of the earth and, you know, it's— and he, you know, he empowers him and he brings all the animals in front of him. And, you know, after each creation day, you hear God say, he says what? He says, it is good, it is good, it is good. And the only thing that you read about in the creation story that God says wasn't good was man's aloneness. He says it's not good that man be alone. And so what did he— so what does he do? You know, he brings all these animals and there was not a helper that was suitable for him.

No.

So he—

the dogs came close, I think. I don't know.

Maybe a close second. But yes, then he puts him to sleep and he pulls the rib and he makes a woman. He makes Eve. And there's the— you know, you hear this is the first song ever written in creation. Anytime you read the Old Testament and you see— you read the text and all of a sudden you see everything's indented. It's either poetry or a song.

Yes.

And the first words out of Adam's mouth were, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. I mean, he was smitten. But this was God's, you know, marriage was not a human invention. We say that at every, every, as part of our liturgy is the first thing I say. And as I'm explaining marriage at a ceremony in our liturgies, it wasn't a human invention, it was God's idea. And it's something that, you know, is honored cross-culturally, Christian or not, people, you know, it's, it's something that's played out. But it's, it's, it's the, it's the seed from which, you know, so much goodness flows, children and family and, you know, a missional, uh, relationship into the world where you love others and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was God's idea. He loves the idea, and he loves it so much that, that, you know, the marriage image is used throughout scripture. Even the, the, the, the second, you know, when, when the new heavens and the earth come together and we, we finally, with the, you know, the God rolls up the script and, you know, the end is consummated, he describes it as a wedding banquet, you know.

And it's, it's a beautiful picture. He talks about marriage as this picture of— that he gives us to be a picture of, of Christ's relationship with the church. And the way that husbands are to love their wives the way that Jesus loved the church, and the wives to respect their husbands. But it's this, it's this beautiful image. So to say God, uh, that's something God values would be one of the vast understatements of the decade. And that is why I think Satan attacks it so viciously.

So you see it constantly because you're obviously a priest, you give sermons, do the Eucharist, but you also are a pastor to your congregants, people in your church. Yeah. And you talk to them a lot. So in general terms, how is marriage under assault?

I think, uh, marriage is— marriage is— well, to begin with, marriage is hard because you have two fallen people that come together and, and, you know, make all kinds of demands on each other. But I think it's under assault. And the idea that— just, just the idea of marriage is under assault.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

I mean, just the notion to— if you look at Europe, or I don't even know what the percentages are, but people aren't even getting married over there.

Yeah.

Um, the divorce rates are, are off the chain, uh, you know. And then just the idea of what marriage is— I don't think people see it in light of the larger story that we were just discussing. But that's sort of on a macro level.

But, but when you talk to people, you talk to people who desperately want their marriages to work, to be happy, to continue, but they're struggling with it. What are the things that you hear? Where are the moments where you feel like this is a, a spiritual attack on husband and wife?

Yeah, I think, uh, spiritual attack, it takes, you know, I always say this is, you know, Satan attacks us in all sorts of ways, uh, but the most nefarious ways is when he, he, he seeks to deceive us, right? But the most nefarious ways that he whispers in our ear is most of the time he whispers in our own voice, right? And he whispers to us, and we, we, it's this self-talk that we engage in. And, you know, again, I don't understand the mystery how this functionally works. And but it, and it, it stokes the, the, the embers of selfishness, of our pride, you know. As I, you know, to steal a quote from Tim Keller, so famously said it, you know, if you want to know what the, your biggest problem in your marriage is, is selfishness. And it's always going to be that. And it's this journey of two self-oriented people.

That's right.

Learning what it means to die to self. And what spiritual attack looks like in that, it's, it's through selfishness and it's through our own pride and that can bubble up in a lot of ways. It can bubble up through, uh, adultery, or it can bubble up through people having, you know, secret lives or pornography addictions, or just people losing sight of each other, you know. And it's so easy. I mean, you know, you have kids, you've lived a life, you know how, how difficult it is in marriage to stay connected and how, uh, people can, uh, you can stop talking, or people— and that's part of the, just part of the discipline. And part of—

I don't know how people do it. I mean, people with kids at home. Once, once kids leave, you're like, I don't know how we managed to stay married. No matter how much you love the person, you don't have time to talk.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's a challenge, man. It is a discipline. One of the more common things when people come in— I do a lot of marriage counseling— people will come in and, you know, inevitably one of the things they'll say is, you know, we just have a hard marriage. And I'll sit and I'll listen and I'll say, dude, you just got a marriage. Like, marriage is hard. Again, it's two fallen people learning to come together and find out, you know, what does it mean to love you and to pursue you and to lay down my life for you and love, love you more than I love myself, as it said in Ephesians 5. You know, what does it mean, you know, husbands, love your wives like Christ loved the church. Well, how did Christ love the church? It wasn't make, you know, clinging to his, you know, his authority and, you know, hammering, hammering his points home. Though, you know, there were moments, right? But it was really laying his life down. And it's a great picture that we think of, like, what is love and marriage? Uh, well, it's a lot of things, but one thing it's not— it's not fair, right?

If you want fairness, go get a business partner. But if you want to love someone in marriage, the question is, hey, How do I, when I feel wrong or I feel hurt or I feel in a place where I feel unseen, like what the world would tell me is I have every right to not love you anymore until I get what's mine. But what the Christian call to marriage, especially for husbands, is no. Yeah, you know, you play hurt and you continue to love and you still move forward and you, and you still, you know, wash feet and you still love your wife and And that's, that's the call. And it's a, it's a call to, it's a, you know, again, to lay your life down. And it's ironic talking about, uh, marriage and speaking about it in any authoritative way because it's topics like marriage or topics like prayer, they're topics that you riff on but you never really feel like you have a handle on it, right? Right. Like, sure, let me tell you about my wisdom on marriage, but it's, it's because I'm like, I, you know, you're always daily because, and that's how you, I think you keep a a humble posture.

But, uh, I've never had any problem with humility having 3 daughters, but, um, it just kind of is baked in, you know.

No, it's true. But, you know, but you never feel like you have— you can wrap your arms around it fully, um, because it is a mystery, and, uh, and it constantly requires a humility, which, you know, you've known me a lot, a lot of years, and that's not something I come by naturally, and most people don't. But, but it's also God's, I would say, uh The profound gift of marriage is it is the crucible with which you, uh, God, uh, transforms your lives if you let it, you know. And ironically, it is those, those moments of, of brokenness and restoration where those transformations come from, uh, tend to happen the most.

Of course, it's the crappy things you're grateful for.

And it's those places too that, you know, I've seen marriages— I've seen marriages shattered by adultery that have, because of the willingness and humility of the two people to invite God in the middle of it and to listen and to walk, I have seen those people emerge with marriages that they'd only dreamed they could have.

Actually?

Oh, 100%. 100%.

Like full-blown cheating?

Yeah, no question.

And they would both sincerely say under polygraph, I'm happier in my marriage than I've ever been.

No question.

Really?

Yeah. God works all things together for the good of those who love him. And if you let him, if you're willing to do it, don't let me sugarcoat it. It's brutal. And I would never suggest that as a journey. No one wants to go there. No one wants to go there. But for those that— that I've seen marriages heal in ways that you couldn't imagine for such egregious pains and so many griefs. And I've seen marriages disintegrate for far less because people aren't willing to walk in and, uh, with humility and, and look at themselves, and they're just too busy pointing at the other person.

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Yeah.

Like, I'm just, you know, all that, you know, I can't believe they did that.

It's just the idolatry of our hearts. And then part of that idolatry is my own self-image. And the thing about idols is this: you can never see your idols until they're smashed. And there's no better place to smash the idolatry of self than in a marriage. Because, you know, where you're like, well, I think— and, you know, no, I mean, your wife knows— your wife is the most dangerous person in your world, that's for sure, because she knows you. And you're the most dangerous person in her world because you know her. You know her wounded places. You know where she's strong. You know where she's weak. You know her insecurities. You know her sense of humor. You know all the things. So you can either a few words from you, if you came to me and said, insulted me in some way, it might hurt my feelings. And we're really close friends, so it would kind of run on.

I think it'd wound you pretty good.

But if my wife said the same thing, dude, I'm with you. I wouldn't— it would destroy me.

Can't get out of bed.

Can't get out of bed, right? You would come in and— but it just shows the power you have over each other's lives.

No, she's got a loaded gun.

But you also have such a tremendous power to bless one another and to raise one another. The way I say, like, you see the glory self in the other. Like, what does it mean to see who God is trying to call forward and to draw them forth? And that's hard, man. That's especially hard in conflict where you're sitting there and you're at odds and you're angry or something like that. And of course, when you're angry, you feel justified, or otherwise you wouldn't feel angry, right? That's kind of the The, the foundation of anger is our self-justification. But the discipline and the spiritual maturity in that is how do I still reach in there and, and see that glory self of that person and, and, and draw them forward and to see them as a child of God, as someone that I actually love, as someone who's precious. And it's very hard to remember. I have a picture of my wife. I have a picture of my wife, of her, she's probably 3 years old. It's a cute kid, beautiful. And it's stuck in my Bible in Psalm 139, which is the psalm about, you know, you're fearfully and wonderfully made.

I wove, knit you together in your mother's womb. And it just talks about the glory of creation. And I do that on purpose because that's what I need to remember in our marriage. It's the thing that at any moment, because I love her deeply and I want to love her. And it's really important that in order to do that well, you need to consistently see the value and the glory of this person that you're inextricably tied to at this point. Amen. Yeah, I agree.

You mentioned pornography as a threat to marriage. It's like one of those things I think we're just like maybe 10 years too old to really— or speaking for myself— to really understand the magnitude of it. How often does pornography arise in marriage counseling as a huge problem?

Oh man, I think it's hard to overstate how pervasive it is now. If I meet with a man, take marriage counseling out of it, just men in general, I, I assume that's in the mix until proven otherwise, actually. Yeah. And that's not an indictment, but I just— it's so pervasive, I'm safer to assume that's the case, that that's somehow part of the narrative, than, uh, then, then it's not. Because it's, it's, you know, we walk around with these little, you know, Apple porn boxes that people have in their hands, you know, and they— and, you know, could you imagine being a teenager now, a teenage boy growing up where, you know, the, the greatest, you know, temptation in your life is literally 3 button clicks away at any moment? And what that's doing to the hearts and minds of young men and what it's doing to their concept of marriage and what that's doing to their concept of sexuality, you know. We're Gen X, you know, were something like you and I came along and you want to do something, you had to work for it. You know, that's not like that. It is literally force-fed to these young men.

But you're only telling one half of the story. The other half is Tim Cook's a billionaire, so there has been a big upside to this.

Yeah, yeah, if you're Tim Cook.

Yeah, no, it's crazy we haven't had a revolution.

Um, I pray it's coming, but I don't think that will ever happen apart from revival. I think that's right, because it's gotta— and it's, it's, it's a, uh, it's again not to belabor the point, but I think what that does, I think we going back to what is spiritual warfare, you know, what is, how does it play out on practical levels? I think that's a profound evil, is trying to, hey, you know, anything, you know, the earlier you can damage someone sexually, just think about what that does.

So real.

It's so real.

Totally.

Just the way that plays out.

You get stuck in patterns that men do anyway. I don't know about women.

Human sexuality, it's malleable, right? It's what—

it's, um, yeah, it's not assigned at birth.

Yeah, yeah, well, it is and it isn't in the sense that it is— is that what I mean is our, our sex, you know, our sexuality as we live it out, you know, our sex is assigned at birth, our gender is assigned at birth. That's obviously a God-breathed, you know, holy call. And, you know, when we talk about things like pornography and the abuses of pornography and things like that, it's really easy to get to start get your wheels caught into this sort of dark, melancholy aspect of it. But, you know, you got to flip it over and first see, like, you know, the glory of what God designed when he designed human sexuality, when he called people and created man and woman to be sexual beings together, right? It's a glorious, it's a beautiful thing. It's a, it's this. In fact, you know, people often criticize Christians as saying, oh, you have such a low view of sexuality. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. We have such a higher view of sexuality than the world. I go, this isn't, this is, it's a fire, but it just needs to be kept into the fireplace.

Right, it's not a consumer product.

No, it's not a consumer product. It's not an adult playground that we just go and—

Yeah, make Tim Cook rich.

But it has profound spiritual impacts for us if we cut against the grain of how God designed us for that. So when we talk about what you said, you know, what you were asking about, like how does that spiritual warfare play out in those, these content in our world and our life from practical boots-on-the-ground level. Like, that's a, that's a perfect example. The, the, it's, it's the, it's the assault on what God values, the, you know, the marriage and the, and human sexuality. Because it, it knows that, A, if you can twist that, it will, it will turn us fully inward. It turns us, we become full-blown consumers, we become a slave to appetites, and we become And I think, again, going back to the, the beautiful thing that you see is that when the Lord heals in that place, you see so much. You see just the power of redemption and watching men and women be restored and feel like they're washed clean, that they're not shameful or objects of shame. And, uh, It's a beautiful thing that God has blessed me to be a part of as I walk through life.

So what is it? So pornography was sold, internet pornography. I mean, I kind of remember this. I was married by the time the internet arrived, but I remember— We're old. Oh, you're old, but I feel fairly young.

Yeah.

Spry, thanks to my consumption of Alp nicotine products.

Product plug. No, we are old.

But there is some advantage in that, in that you sort of remember how things were sold when they first arrived on market. And I remember people saying, well, this is going to be the end of rape and sexual assault because there's a healthy outlet for sexuality in the form of pornography. People said that. I mean, I remember when they said that.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I don't remember that, but I just—

but that is— well, the internet would make us free and inform us when actually people don't even read anymore and we're surveilled constantly.

We're going to put this fire out by by pouring gasoline on it.

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But anyway, fast forward 35 years, like, what damage does it do? So you're a married man who's got a porn habit. Why is that bad? Like, in practical terms, how does that divide you from your wife and family?

We could spend the next 3 hours talking about this. Just give me the 5 minutes. In simple terms, one, it twists your view of sexuality and it twists your view of your spouse. And what I mean by that is people say, oh, it's the objectification of women. People say that all the time, but it truly does do that. And, you know, women— you might not know this— women's sexuality is very different than a man's.

What?

Yeah, that's right.

And, uh, you know, they don't just get drunk and horny and like hook up with random people.

They're not big dumb animals, right? They're, they're, and, uh, it doesn't mean it's less important for them.

I agree.

And God fashioned it for— and that's another cliché that people say, you know, sex just means more for a man than it does for women. Actually, that's not true. It's not more important for a man than it is for a woman. Men just go about it differently. And, and for a man to understand the value of it from a woman, it requires us to slow down and to, to have that conversation and understand it and to listen in a way that we aren't naturally wired to do, or we don't feel like we can do, right?

Yes.

You agree with that?

So I agree with it more than almost anything I've ever heard. It requires us to slow down. That's number one.

Absolutely.

And my father always said that. Slow down.

Your dad was a wise man.

But on that topic, he was wise. Yeah.

I am. So, um, but yeah, so the first thing that it does is it twists that, right? You begin— it presents this, these women as these caricatures of male sexuality, and I think that's not fair, and I think it does a tremendous amount of, of, of damage. That's one. Two, and again, this is not an exhaustive list, but two, it, it's— it pushes men into isolation. And, you know, porn, pornography addictions, or hidden sexuality, these are things that men, you know, they don't do out in the open. They they, they, you know, they do in, in secret. They do it in, and, uh, they do it in private, and they don't tell anybody about it, right? And the number one tool that Satan will do, use, is isolation. Yes, he will push men into the shadows, because what happens there, that's where shame can grow unfettered, and that's where, you know, people feel broken, more perverse, and where they become more broken and become more perverse, which makes you feel more. And it's this vicious feedback loop that begins to occur. So men, they think they're— it's interesting that it always starts with, oh, I can handle this.

And it becomes this sort of, I'll smoke a cigarette a day, but the pornographic version of it. But before they know it, it becomes a consuming a consuming thing in their lives. And, uh, so it, that's, it drives them into the shadows, which creates isolation, which creates shame, which creates, you know, a, a, you know, a false sense of self as you walk into marriage. And what is marriage? Marriage is as it was designed. You read, you know, Genesis chapter 2. What does it say? He, he made, right after the passage of, you know, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh, it says they were naked and unashamed. That they stood before each other. That's about sex, but that's also about a spiritual heart posture that men and women have in front of each other. That is all that I am, all that I, you know, seen and unseen, I am, I am here before you.

That's right.

And pornography goes to war with that and pushes men into the shadows, and women too, by the way. This is, this is not— I mean, it is certainly more dominated by men, but what we've seen over the years is that this is something that women contend with as well. Um, easier for me to talk about because I'm a man and, you know, probably holds more credence, but it's, uh, but it's very real. So, you know, creates caricatures of what sexuality is, creates caricatures of women.

It screws up your sex life, doesn't it?

It— yeah. So it, it— and then the other thing is, is what we said again, you know, our human sexuality, our our sex drives, they're malleable, right? And you feed that into those sort of perversions or those— you marinate in that kind of stuff, it will take you places you don't want to go.

My father, when I was little, said to— this is so over the top, but I'm just going to say it. It was my favorite line ever. I never say it because it's so over the top, but I remember driving in the car with him and he was telling— we were like 8 and 10 or something, and something about pornography came up. He goes, yeah, it's a really bad idea. It makes you perverse. And he said, your sexuality is like a grain of wood. So if you take your fingernail and run it along a wooden kitchen table, it gets deeper with every pass. And he said, if you get into that— my father is very pro-sex, like, very pro-sex. But he goes, it's a dark road and you keep getting— it gets weirder and weirder and weirder. And the next thing you know, you can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume. That's what he said. I have no idea what that means, but it stayed with me for 45 years. Like a chicken costume.

Your dad had a chicken costume?

I don't know. No, he did not have a chicken costume. He was very proud of not having a chicken costume. I understand. That's hilarious. I think he may have phrased it that way. It was just so evocative that it, like, never— I wish my brother was here, he would confirm this. Like, I never stopped thinking—

I knew your dad, I believe that 100%. I know your dad was awesome. Your dad was awesome.

You can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume. Anyway, uh, so, but that's the kind of what you're talking about.

I do. I think it takes you— again, it takes you places. It's, it's the law of diminishing returns, right? So, you know, what it's, it's, it's like, okay, you need this amount of heroin to begin with, and before you know—

yes, you know, that's right—

quadruple the dose. And it's, it's all about the dopamine hit, you know.

You—

it's the same. Our sexuality is no different. That it— when it's taken out of context, when it's taken into those places, when it's used in a way that God did not intend it— like, God, God's design for it is not to be prudish and to keep you from having a good time. Like, of course, right? I mean, and it, it's the idea of like, how can this flourish and become something that doesn't— that is life-producing? And literally beauty, but also that breeds intimacy between a man and a woman, that breeds, uh, connection between a man and a woman, that breeds a sense of just wonder and, and awe and just beauty, right? And that was his design for it. And when you step out of that boat, man, like, it does everything I just described. It does the opposite of that, you know. If there's one thing I could tell young people, it's, it's protect that with all that you are. Because the world is lying to you. It's lying to you about, about, you know, the frivolous, oh, it's no big deal. No, it is a big deal. It has profound spiritual implications for you.

It has, it has, it can take you places that one day you wake up and you say, I don't want to be here and I don't know how to get back. All right. There is the good news.

I'll say this.

If you have, they have been there and I've seen this over and over again, you know, Oh, you know, it's— I'm damaged goods now. No, you're not. Like, this is— God uses the broken things of this world.

That's right.

And he is— I mean, I, I— the places I've been, the places you've been, the things we've done in our lives, like, we're— the God— God is all about the prodigals. And there's no— there's no one that is beyond redemption and healing. And God loves to restore that because God loves that, right? It ain't fun. Right? It's not a place you want to go. But if that's where you are and that's what you've done, it's okay. There's a God of grace. The reason, you know, Jesus doesn't put— see that, and that's why Jesus steps back from the table. Actually, that's the reason Jesus came, because we misuse sexualities, because we, you know, we, we're, we're bathed in our own shame because we, we make bad decisions, because we're so committed to our own self-destruction. That's why he calls himself self-destruction. That's why he calls himself a savior and not a, you know, a self-help guru, because, because I need a savior. I need someone to reach down and pull me up and, and save me from me. Yeah, right. It's not just— yes, there's a— on a theological level, he saves me from sin and he washes me clean, and my, you know, my standing before God and all of those things, which is deep and profound and eternal and, you know, worthy of reflection for, you know, thousands of years.

But when you boil it down, he really came to save me from me.

Yeah.

You know, from my own devices and where I would go. I mean, you think of the number of things that God has saved you from that you're not aware of, right?

Yeah, well, there's a long list of things I am aware of. Right, right.

But so think about how dramatic the thing, how dramatic the list is that he saved you from that you didn't even get to see, right? And, you know, even the way he's restrained your own appetites in those places that you didn't even know, you know? And, uh, so yeah, going back to your question, I do think pornography, it's evil and it's done so much damage. And, you know, as you said, I think there's going to be a— I don't know what the word you use— like a revolution against it. But I don't think that's ever going to happen until we have an actual revival again. Which, man, do we need that. But we have to— we've lost the plot. And you lose the plot in sexuality, you're talking about that, you lose the plot of the gospel story, the creation story.

If you—

and your story just kind of becomes about your narrative of, uh, my sex life, then, you know, it becomes a very dangerous thing. But when you read it in light of like what we're talking about, you took— you know, we just kind of touched on it, but you read the Genesis story and God's creative intention for that stuff. All of a sudden you become invited into, into this larger epic tale that becomes about something so much more. And what you're— again, your soul is of so much more immense value than you ever imagined it was. And it's to be, to be a part of something that's so much more incredible than anything that you could ever cobble together on your own. Why wouldn't you want that, right?

You're the person who put the gender stuff in context for me when this first happened. People questioning whether gender is real, sex distinctions are real.

Yeah.

It's been going on for 70 years. Of course, it's the core premise of second-wave feminism that really there's no difference between the sexes. So I obviously rejected that, but then it became much more radical 10, maybe 10 years ago.

Doesn't it strike you, but even in every context that, you know, be it secular or in church context, when people argue, you know, there are no gender distinctions, you know, you can make theological arguments, you know, biblical arguments, whatever, but just simply saying that like, hey, before 70 years ago, literally no one agreed with this. Like, you can't really find a place in us that we're—

so in all human history, in all human history.

So I'm not going to even argue I'm right or wrong, but doesn't that make you want to pump the brakes a little bit?

No, because we have atomic weapons now. And I'm— this, let me just indulge my theory, which I can't control myself from talking about. Ron, baby, you've heard it before, but I just think, I think nuclear weapons, which I don't think we're created by people. Sorry, I don't care how many movies they make about it. Don't believe that.

You didn't see Oppenheimer?

Yeah, okay. I wouldn't watch that crap. I wouldn't let that into my head for one second. But anyway, because it's all lies. But anyway, sorry, now I'm getting really crazy, but it's all true. What I'm saying is true. I think once man possessed the power, or believed he possessed the power to destroy everything that's alive, I think that he rejected God. Kind of like, that's rejection of God. And like, everything changed after that. People became convinced they were gods, and that's when the true craziness started. It's not the '60s, the '60s, or the, you know, Obama years or whatever you want era. It's like post-nuclear weapons. That's what I believe. So anyway, but the gender thing kind of exploded maybe 10 years ago with this, like, really, we're gonna assign the child a gender or let choose his gender or whatever. And I was confused by it. I thought it was so crazy that I just didn't take it seriously at all. And you're the one who made me take it seriously. And you said, I'll never forget it. You said, this is a direct attack on God's design as described in Genesis. So can you flesh it out a little bit?

This is not like an accident. Like, this was always going to happen is basically what you said.

Yeah. Well, when you read the Genesis narrative, right, You know, again, God, God, you know, in the beginning, God creates the heaven and the earth, and you have this picture of this sort of chaos that happens in the— and as God's Spirit hovers over the water, you know, the Hebrew, it's, it's, it's the— it's the hovering is almost like a mother bird's wings hovering over the chaos, and he begins to speak things into order. And, you know, you got day one, and he creates light, and he's to— you know, as it grows, he separates the land from the, from the waters, and he throws the stars in the sky, and he shoots this fish and sea, and the animals come. And then each time you see each created order, or each creative day, what you're watching is it grows in glory, it grows in complexity, but glo— it grows in glory. And each time God is, it's good, it's good. And then you get to day 6 where God creates humanity, and it's this sort of crowning explosion of creation, the, the, the largest expression of his glory. Actually, the crown jewel of creation was the last thing which was created, and that was— those were women.

That is the final, most glorious creation.

And that's certainly how I feel.

Yeah. And that's the way the story needs to be read, right? So if people just side notice, you know, women always— it's— and I have sympathy for it, for— there's much the church needs to apologize for, for the ways that they've hurt women over in the past. But I can tell you from— as a Bible nerd, I can tell you that that is the fault of man and not of God, because the biblical story elevates women in a way that the world never would. They would— anyway, so back to our point. So in this crown jewel of creation with humanity, he could have expressed it in any way. And he created man, he created man and he created woman. You know, they are— he created masculinity and he created femininity. This is not a human construct. Construct. It is not a social construct. Of course, there are things that, that, you know, cultures and, you know, you know, cultural moments can shape the way those are expressed. But generally speaking, masculinity as we understand it, it's, it's not just, oh, you're a dude. It's a holy calling. It's a holy calling. And as God says, you are his image bearer in this world, and women are his image bearers that come together to create this fuller image of what God is to be expressed and rolled out into the world as their imager.

We—

it would behoove us to understand what is this thing called masculinity that I've been saddled with, or I've been— I have been called to. What is femininity that I have been called to? And as men, uh, I think— well, to your point, I think that's A, that, that you cannot There's many people that make theological arguments against what I just said. And okay, you can make many theological arguments. You just can't make a biblical argument against what I just said. You just can't read the scripture in any just intellectually honest way and just not see that that's just the way it is. And also experientially.

Well, I know it's true experientially because God also doles out punishments for eating the fruit. And he says to Adam, you're going to live by the sweat of your brow. It's going to be hard for you to make a living. You got to work.

Thorns and thistles. Futility. Yeah.

And he says to Eve two things. One, childbirth is going to be hard for you. And two, your desire is going to be for your husband.

Rule over him.

And he's going to rule over you. And those are the things that men and women resent. I've noticed men need to work. They derive satisfaction and self-respect from work, but they also hate to work because it's hard. Women, of course, most women love children, but they fear childbirth, and that is suffering. And there is a sense in which women resent men.

Men hate work, and women might resent that stuff. We can do that. But when we lose the plot, but when we step back into the story, right, when we encounter God in a real way through the gate of Jesus, we go through and begin to see the redemptive story. But when we see the creation story and the creation purpose like we just described, and you realize, wait, this is a holy calling. I'm actually— what was God— when God called Adam, work was— work didn't happen after the fall. God's purpose was work for Adam. He said, I want you— again, we said it again, God created Eden, Eden, which was this holy place, this— but the rest of the world wasn't like Eden. And when he says to Adam, I want you to exercise dominion, what he's saying is not just I'm putting you in charge. What he was saying is I'm giving you a job, and I want you to take what is in Eden, and I want you to take it all around the rest of the world. I want you to turn the world into, into this. I want you to drag the realities of this out and create.

Go be ruthlessly human in relationship with God. Go create cities and art and cuisine and all these things like become, you know, become, build out the kingdom of God, right? And when you see that, when Jesus came talking about the kingdom of God, it wasn't Plan B. He's grabbing Plan A and just saying that we're, we're reinstituting. It's all about that. And so when you see in Revelation chapter 21, which is the end of the story, where it says, behold, I see, you know, the new heavens and the earth are coming down, and behold, I'm making all things new, and, and you and it's this glorious picture of the consummation of all things. That holy city that's coming down, that was the city that Adam was supposed to have built. And all of a sudden, where Adam failed, Jesus is the second Adam. He succeeded and he came and he made this happen. Why does that matter? How does this go into our, uh, this question about man being working and, you know, uh, and all the sense of futility? Not only is masculinity a holy calling, but the work that we're, we're to put our, our hands to, when we have now of a gospel lens, when Jesus says the, the kingdom of God is at hand, we get to be participants now in, in the original mandate to how do we bring and build the kingdom of God here and now.

And all of a sudden animates— I don't care if you're a plumber or you're a lawyer, you're a you know, baker or candlestick maker, that all of a sudden we are now participants in something that God is doing, that we get to bring the realities to bear in our world. And that, that sense of futility, uh, I think when we, we can maintain that perspective, I don't think our sense of futility can stand. It goes to war with our sense of futility. Does it make sense?

It does make sense. Can I add one liner note, please? Eden was what physically? It was a land of rivers and trees?

Great question. I'm a Genesis nerd, so I'm going to go here.

Rivers and trees though, correct?

Rivers and trees.

Okay.

Eden was also, I believe it says in Ezekiel, it describes it as on a mountain, which is kind of a lost fact.

So rivers, trees, and mountains.

And a place where God, the divine, and the human overlapped and dwelled together.

So maybe there's a reason that when people are in office buildings, they feel differently from the way they feel when they're next to rivers.

Hanging out in trees. Yeah.

Yeah. And maybe anyone who destroys rivers and trees is on the wrong side.

The Lorax might have had a point.

I really believe that. I believe that. I believe that trees are really important. They're all over the Bible. I think cedar has a special place.

But you look at God's plan, it's true. But you, you, but you, when you read again, going back to the creation story, each creation day after God made the trees, and what did he say? He says it's good. It was good in and of itself because he found pleasure in it.

Amen.

Not just for its utility, not to, but it's also, um, and not just for its utility, not just for utility, it's for, and so we're, when Adam was to exercise dominion, it wasn't like, what are you going to kill and cut down? It was, how are you going to nurture Exactly. How are you going to take this and bring it everywhere?

Well, and that's why when people get in that kind of relationship with nature, they feel a deep satisfaction and a peace. Oh man, clearly from God.

100%.

So when you deny people that, that is when you deny them beauty. When you destroy beauty, God's created beauty, that is not good.

I just preached on this the other night, but the idea, um, of redemption and the idea of recreation. When you— Genesis, I think it's 3:17, where it says, talking about, you know, thorns and thistles and will push back, one of the lines is it says, cursed is the ground because of you. This is God speaking, and what he's saying there is, because of your sin, you, Adam, who I've put in charge of the created order as my vice regent, because of your sin, now it is it is paid forward and it has corrupted the creation. So the earthquakes and the fallenness of this world is a product of the fallenness of man. So when you read in Romans 8, it talks about the creation groans and the way the creation groans because, you know, scripture tends to personify, you know, the birds and the mountains and all. Yeah. And it says the creation groans. Groans, right? Yeah, of course. Uh, in Psalm 19, you know, all of creation sings of God's glory, but the creation groans. But in the same way, it is—

it—

the redemption of creation is going to be tied to the redemption of man and the redemption of humanity. So as we are, are, have been recreated and are living out that recreation, and one day we'll stand in the full realities of our recreation, So will the world. It is tied to when Jesus came to redeem all things. He wasn't just talking about people, all things. The cedars, as you just said, and the trees and the rivers and the— and I can't wait for that day.

I agree with that. But on the way to that day, we— I think I know because I experienced this morning. So watch the sun come up. You can get flashes of it.

That's right.

All around us.

and it's our— it's, it's— and we can, we can participate in that. That's, you know, behold, the kingdom of God is at hand. What is, what is Jesus doing in those moments when in, in the New Testament, when he— we talked about this last night— when Jesus is— every time you see Jesus doing a miracle, like, what is Jesus doing in that moment? Is he just doing a trick? Is he trying to sort of flex his, like, God muscle and show them, like, this is what I'm capable of? Is this a proof? I mean, there's some of that where he's, like, pulling back the curtain and revealing his divinity and who he is, and where people sit back and he stills the wind and the waves, and people aren't just quit asking like, who are you? They're now asking like, what are you? Yeah, right. But when Jesus, one of the things that he's doing in those moments where he is, you know, he heals the, heals the, you know, uh, the hemorrhaging woman, or he raises Jairus's daughter from the dead, or he calls Lazarus out of tomb, what he's doing is he's reaching forward and he's grabbing the realities of the new heavens and the new earth that we will one day live in the full experience, and he's planting them in the moment, and he's giving people a foretaste of like, this is what the kingdom of God is, this is what the king— so, you know, the, the journey of redemption and recreation for, uh, is not about how do we get man out of earth into heaven.

The journey and the ultimate consummation is how do we get heaven and earth back together? And that's— and those miracles that we begin to see, as the miracles we were just talking about, are— is Jesus doing that very thing? And to your point, where you say, I stand out there and I see pops of this, we now get to participate in that. So we get to bring the realities of the new heavens and the new earth. How does that look? Well, here's the new one. When we bring, when we bring comfort to someone who is lost in grief. When I sit with a couple who is shattered by adultery, or their marriage isn't, or someone is on their deathbed and they are scared and they feel alone, and you sit and you pray with them and you're bringing those realities to bear. When you feed the hungry, when you love the very difficult to love. That's our call. When you plant a garden, right? I know these are kind of, oh, come on. No, really. When you plant a garden, like, what are you doing? That's an ancient call. I mean, that's what Adam did.

That's what Noah did. He was a farmer. He grew grapes.

But we are participating in the Anyone who doubts that, anyone who would mock the idea of garden planting as a profound act, hasn't lived long enough.

Yeah, I'm not very good at that.

I watered my wife's garden the other night. She had to go and she's like, we watered my garden. Took me like 40 minutes, by the way. But by the end, I was like, man, that was amazing. That was amazing. All I did was water the garden.

I am exercising my dominion with a hose.

I'm with you, man.

Yeah.

So the gender, the question of whether God created male and female, this is not some minor question.

No.

And liberating people from the constraints of gender is probably not actually liberation. Is that what you're saying?

No, I think it's a confusion. It's sad. And in fairness, let me let me, uh, take it from a non-political kind of lens of it, because it's like, I know that's a cultural movement, but just take it down to a, you know, there are people that— and I have a deep heart for that— people that have profound confusion in that place for sure, and, and brokenness in that place, and that feel very lost in that place and feel very— and the way Christians talk about it in a sort of argumentative way, right? You know, like, oh, you're right, we're wrong. I'm like, dude, that's that, you know, we can fight a sort of air war, a theological war, and have these kind of debates. But at the end of the day, you got to remember, like, we're talking about people here, right? Right. And they're legit people that are hurting and asking real questions in this place. That have—

and a lot of them. Yeah, not a small number.

That's right. And, and I think one of the disservices in the church that we can do is because we get so consumed in the theological debate that, you know, we we lose the trees and see the forest. All right. And when you look at the trees, these are people.

And they come up with their question around what would you say to someone who was in your care, just another human being, your neighbor as defined by the New Testament, who was questioning his or her gender? Like, what would you say to that person? Presumably you don't want that person to question and you don't want the person to take the next steps, but you love that person. So you're probably not screaming at the person. So what do you say?

Well, I'd tell you the first thing I would say is, well, first thing, I would walk with a profound humility because I know that I'm stepping into a story that involves a tremendous amount of shame and a sense of isolation because this is something this person undoubtedly had been contending with far longer at a far younger age than— in solitude, in solitude, which is heartbreaking to think of a child asking theological questions for which they shouldn't be asked to contend with. Like, am I going to hell? Am I this? Am I like— that's That's like, I could, I weep thinking about that. And so my heart posture in that is one of deep and profound compassion.

Thank you.

Because they didn't ask for that.

Yeah.

And it is, and for those that sit on the opposite side of a theological fence to just come at this with hammer and tongs, like you might win an argument But bro, you are shattering people and you're winning no hearts in that place.

That's right.

It is the, it is the God's, it is God's kindness that leads to repentance. And we would, excuse me, we would be wise to remember his kindness to us before we ever step into a conversation like that. So what would I say?

And by his kindness to us, you mean they're no better than me.

I'm no better than them.

That's exactly right.

What lottery?

Do I know what you're saying? We were talking last night.

We single this issue off, dude, and it's like, okay, but I will somehow wink at greed or somebody's, or my own, or bloodlust or whatever it is. And we can wink at all these things, but You know, all those things keep me out of— like, I deserve, I deserve hell for all those things, right?

No, I get it.

But for the grace of God, period. And we talk about the things that God saved us from that we don't like, like, and the malleability. Like, why aren't you dealing with that? Why am I not doing— like, I don't know, but I'm not, and I'm thankful I'm not.

But it's—

so how do you— so how do you walk into it? What do you say? You don't say anything first. You listen, man. But, and you earn the right to be heard. You earn the right to be heard. You sow seeds, dude, and you listen. And the way you sow seeds is you non-judgmentally listen and you invite forward, who are you, man? Because that doesn't define you. And you become a safe place and a trustworthy place, not with an agenda so you can eventually pull this judo move to show them how they're wrong. Wrong, because this is not your job, right? It's God's job to move someone's heart. It's God's job. Like, when Jesus ate with sinners, what did he do? Did you think he sat around and you got— because he just sat around and he ate with the tax collectors and the drunkards and the prostitutes. Did he sit there and the conversation was him going around the room telling them where they were wrong and he was right? Like, no, that would be a very short hang, right? That's not a good party. Yeah, but no, it's because they liked him.

Yeah.

And why did they like him? Because he probably listened really well and he probably sat with them and he earned the right to be heard. And as a prophet, that is a wonderful philosophy of ministry as you step into places like this with the broken and the bruised and the bruised reeds and the smoldering wicks, as Scripture says. And you listen and you, and you, and And hopefully they come out of the shadows and begin to talk about the struggle, and you honor it and you love them and you let, you know, you let the Lord steer it. Like, I would be doing a disservice. What do you say? Like, I don't know. It depends who I'm talking to and whatever. But I know what I wouldn't say, and I know what I wouldn't do, and it wouldn't lead off with a moral lecture on what— because they know They've contended with those arguments. They could probably shape those arguments better than I ever could, 'cause they've dealt with them far longer and in far more personal ways. So yeah, I love 'em well. And then, you know, I think again, what does it mean to do the work of God in places like that?

It's the same thing in anywhere else. A bunch of years ago, someone asked me this question. I was working with a— doing some chaplaincy work with the soccer team, and he was joking about, "What is it like to do the Lord's work?" And I kind of like, I thought it was a kind of a weird question. And I thought to myself for a minute, I was like, "You know what, man? I'm not doing the Lord's work. The Lord is doing the Lord's work. My job as a priest, as a pastor, as a Christian, as a man, is to cultivate a heart that knows what it means to listen to the Holy Spirit and to see where the Holy Spirit is moving and just agree with it. I just agree with it, right? How do we learn that? How do we cultivate that? We learn it through reading the word. We learn it through prayer. We learn it through worship. We learn it through doing these conversations. We learn it through our relationships with other men or women in our marriages. But we tune our hearts, as the hymn says, we— Lord, tune my heart to your grace so I know I can see it when you're doing it, and I can just agree with it.

And the doors you open cannot be shut, the doors you closed can't be opened. Just help me not beat my head against those doors that won't open. And when I'm dealing with a human heart, it's the same question. How do I— what doors are you opening there, and how do I talk to them in a way that they need to hear this? Not the way that I can be right.

Yeah. People have an overwhelming need to be right or desire to be right.

I do. It's hard, man.

I don't, but I know you don't. I look at you with pity and concern. Yeah, God, you imagine needing to be right, need to prove your point. Well, that was a beautiful description of how to actually love somebody rather than— I mean, because I know where you're coming from, which is you want to see people genuinely liberated and not led into their destruction by any of these things. But we're all fighting against our desire to be right, really, is what it comes down to.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, 100%.

Can I say one thing though that I can't resist? So Jesus, there's this moment where he says, woe to anyone who leads the children astray. And you do feel like when you're looking at people who are beset by any of these agonies with compassion, I mean, if you look at them with compassion, but then you think someone lied to them and got them here in the first place. And I feel less compassion for that person. I'm just going to say that.

There's a lot of voices, man, and I would— there's a lot of people that will vehemently disagree with me, and that's okay. But, uh, I would just say that as people ask those questions about their own life and they're going through, like, you, you can easily find someone to affirm the path that you're going down to.

Oh yeah.

All right. I mean, there's so many different flavors and denominations and expressions of that. Like, you want someone to prop up your lifestyle and give you theological and biblical justification, like, you don't have to scratch, scratch very deep to find someone to do that. But that's why I think it's so important that we— that's why I'm, like I said, I'm a Bible nerd, and I think it's so important that, that it's scripture alone, man. We have to, we have to go, you know, we have to go to scripture and test it, everything against, measure everything against what we're hearing in the world, what you're hearing from me, what you hear from, you know, the church and leadership. Like, I'm not, I'm not scripture, right? I'm not like, what's right? What's wrong? Who gets to answer that question? Who gets to be the one to answer that question? Do I get to answer that question? No. Does God get to answer that question? Okay, so that's, we can all agree. Most people will stack hands. God's the one that gets to answer that question. Okay, how does God answer that question? Does he answer it through me?

Uh, he answers it through his word, right? He answers it through that. That's how God has taken a knee and he has written this redemptive, historical, sort of incredibly rich, dynamic gift to us that's called the Bible. And if we are people that want to understand what it means to to ask these questions, to move in these directions, and to do it with any, any truth and integrity, we have to measure what we're hearing against this, you know. Yes, it's, you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind through the scriptures, it says in Romans. And so we can test in God's good and perfect will, we can test it. Is this God speaking to me, or is this some, you know, newfangled cultural moment that's just trying to to, you know, vie for air dominance right now or whatever, you know? You know what I'm saying?

Of course. Yeah. So addiction has been a feature of— he was described in the Bible, so it's, you know, it's been around since people have been around, I think. But it does seem like a bigger factor in the lives of Americans than 40 years ago. I mean, I know that it is because there's just a lot more ways to get addicted and there's less cultural resistance to addiction than there's ever been. And so entire generations are getting destroyed by it.

More things that are more obvious things to be addicted to that aren't just substances.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So how big a presence is addiction in your experience of counseling?

I mean, it's, it's just part of it, you know. And, uh, it's a, you know, doing what I do, obviously you encounter, you know, when people come into my office and they knock on my door Very rarely it is like, hey, I have a question. Why in the Book of Numbers did so-and-so, you know, why did Moses hold up a golden, you know, serpent or whatever? It's rarely questions like that.

It's more like, are you psyched when it is though?

Yeah, actually that's a lot easier, right? It's a lot easier because, uh, but it's people that are coming in with it, you know, they can't keep their cheese on their cracker, man, and they're saying, hey, I'm addicted to this, or my marriage is coming apart. And, um, so addiction is— it's a, it's a, you know, again, you've got substance abuse, you got alcoholics, you've got people that, you know, opioids now, which is insane. You've got these things, you know, the list is endless. Gambling, pornography, gambling, pornography. Gambling is huge. That is— God, that scares me because of just the online stuff.

You see that?

Uh, I don't— I have seen it. It's not something that I have faced, but I know a lot about it. I know a lot of people that have gone that journey, and that is one of the most nefarious and hard-to-beat addictions, is gambling. And, uh, but all that to say, uh, but to those that, that contend with addiction, you know, the one thing that I can say, and I can say this unequivocally, is there is so much hope for people. It's not a path that you ever want to walk down But my, my favorite people that I deal with are my friends in AA, or my friends in, uh, you know, they're in NA, or that have gone through recovery, that have had, you know, all their self-righteous pretenses stripped down, that have been brought down to the studs, who have, you know, blown up their lives. So they don't have anything, they don't have anything to prove. And they've been on this redemptive journey. I always talk to these people. I would say, would you please come and join my church? Would you please come and be a part? I'm like, we need this.

Like, the church needs to be a hospital, not a showcase.

I've never been to a church as Christian as some AA meetings I've been to.

I agree with you. And it's, you know, church needs to be a place where we can get blood on the walls. And you know what I mean by that? We can, we can tell the truth. You know, church is not designed to be an AA meeting, and AA meetings are not designed to be church, but there are aspects of where the humility and the honesty— the humility, the honesty— to where people can come in and walk through the doors of a church and say, this has— this is populated by people that I, that I could sit in a room full of men or a room full of women, a room full of couples, and I could have a human yard sale of what I've done and who I've been in my life, and I would be met with love and grace and people looking at me and saying, I want to hear more of that. That when I show you the most wretched parts of me, it doesn't push you away, but it draws you closer because you're able to look me in the eye and say, yeah, I get it, man, me too. Yeah, you know, and that's— that is, you know, that's it.

Because what that does, it does a lot of, you know, our biggest, most, you know, with addiction especially And, you know, be it pornography, gambling, alcohol, whatever it is, you know, sweets, whatever you're addicted to.

No, I don't think it's fair to put sweets.

That might be a little, that might be a little too much, but it's, it is a, it is, it breeds so much shame.

Yeah, I know, right?

It breeds so much, and that's what sin does, it breeds shame. You read the story in the garden when Adam eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he runs. What's the first thing Adam does? Is he runs and he hides in the bushes. Yeah, he hides. And then God comes in and he asks the question. He says, Adam, where are you? What do you— what do you— why are you hiding? A little pro tip: anytime God asks a question in scripture, he already knows the answer.

He does.

But what he needed Adam to see is he needed Adam to see the answer. And Adam comes out and he says— what he says to him, he says, why were you hiding? And all right, Adam's in the garden. There's one rule in the garden: don't eat of this tree of the knowledge of good and And Adam's broken that rule. Sin enters and he hides. And when God asks him, why are you hiding? The logical answer is, I just broke the one rule. That's not what he says, though. He says, I was naked and I was ashamed. And to paraphrase that, he was saying, I wasn't hiding because I have done something wrong. I'm hiding because I am something wrong.

Yeah.

And I could not bear for you to see me. And if you saw me, you would reject me and I would be alone. And that is the most foundational cry of the human heart, which it was the cry of Jesus on the cross when he became sin, when he truly became like us and he absorbed the sin of humanity. And he quotes the Psalms and he says, my God, my God, the cry of dereliction. Why have you forsaken me? He could have said anything in that moment, but it was this cry of our deepest longing. Don't leave me like this, this shameful thing that I am. So going back to the AA, the biggest poison that leads to addiction, and it's this, this, this shame engine that, that drives us. And I don't want to feel it, so I drink, and I feel more shame, and I— so I drink more, and it just becomes this cycle. But when you get into these rooms and you're able to have, like I just said, like you have a yard sale and you'll be able to say, this is what I am, I'm Billy, I'm an alcoholic, or I'm Tucker and I'm with this, or I'm whatever it is, and you can lay that out in front of a group of people and they sit there and they don't run away and they don't give you the rejection that you think that you deserve that pushed Adam into the bushes.

It does. It just sweeps the knee of your shame. And all of a sudden, the thing that, that Satan meant for evil, God means for good. And it— the, the place of your greatest destruction, your greatest fears, your greatest self-sabotage becomes a place where life grows. Like, tell me there's not a living God. Tell me there's not a God that is using the tools of the enemy against him, right? That makes us more than conquerors, right? That's beautiful. And so do I encounter addiction?

Yeah.

And when I find guys that have been through recovery, I love them.

Me too.

I want more of them.

I feel exactly the same way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So you made, I think, the most profound thing you said was the core human fear is, don't leave us alone. And that the first thing that God saw that was wrong with creation was Adam's solitude. It's not good for man to be alone. It does feel like people are more alone. Oh.

We're isolated, especially as men.

Why as men?

Because we are scared to be found out. You know, men, we live in the same way. You know, that description I just said of Adam, he's like, you know, there's something that's, you know, I'm not something right. It said, Adam, on this course, I have to become— it's on me. I've got to become— this ruthless quest for validation. And that's the sort of spiritual genetic heritage that we've all received. I think it's all men. We are born with this idea of that— this— I'm incomplete and it's on me to be enough. And I'm terrified, isn't that, you know, I, one is, but you know, as a man, I spent much of my life, too much of my early life terrified that people would see that I don't have it all together. Like we all like have two things in common. One, none of us have it all together. And the second is we all want everyone around us to think we do.

Of course, right?

And the idea and the fear of that is, if I let you see that, the same fear that Adam had, that you would, you would see something that you found undesirable and you would abandon me and I would be left alone. So as men, we have become so artfully skilled at working side by side and doing acts of, you know, uh, working side by side and playing golf together and doing all these things, but just know nothing about each other's lives.

I think that's right. But if I could just be the liberal for a moment and blame society also, I think the structures have completely changed in the world around us. And I think it is more and more difficult for men to find the chance to be with other men. Yeah, just men. I mean, that is total— well, by the way, it's measurable.

Well, it's an, it's an ancient problem. I think one of the great unspoken miracles in scripture is that Jesus is a man in his mid-30s, had 12 best friends, right? Like, how many men in their 30s—

like, the last—

most men— I spent a lot of time ministering with men. I love it. It's one of my favorite things, is that one of the, one of the last times that men remember having real relationships was back in college. I know, the last time. And then they step into the workforce, they get, they get married, which is wonderful, and they have children, which is wonderful, but they lose sight of the importance of male relationship. They lose sight of, uh, they lose sight of the value of why you need men around you. And this is something that, I mean, Jesus demonstrably demonstrated that in his 12 disciples, with his 12 disciples. That was, uh, you know, he illustrated a lot of things with that. But on a most basic level, it was just, hey, we need that. You read Mark chapter 2, what is the story where Jesus is in Capernaum and he's there and he's teaching in the house and it's packed and there's people like hanging in the windows and no one could get in or out. And there's these, there's a man who's been paralyzed and they can't, they want Jesus to heal him and they can't get to him.

So his, his friends, his 4 friends or however many friends it was, they pick up the mat and they, they They grab the corners of the mat and they carry their friend, and they go to the roof of where Jesus is teaching in this house, and they begin digging and they tear the roof off. You can imagine Jesus just feeling the chunks coming down, and he's like, what's going on? And they're like, our friend is hurt. My friend needs you. And they lower this man down. If I were to go down the street, how many men do you think And I polled randomly, how many men do you think would have mat carriers?

I do.

I do too. Thank you for being one of those mat carriers.

Yeah. Well, we saw this coming 40 years ago.

You saw it coming.

No, I just knew that men in there, because I saw it among men I knew and respected and loved, they would get to middle age and then old age and they had no real male friends. And so we decided, the 5 of us in college, we're not going to let that happen. And we set up a pretty complex structure to maintain that friendship. And we did.

We sure did.

And for over 40 years now. And so that really one of the profound things in my life. But I just know, I really feel like I'm one of very few 57-year-old men person I know who has like 4 best friends, for real though, not kind of academically my best friends, but like people I see regularly who are the godfathers of my children, who we travel somewhere in the world every single year, who I talk to all the time, who I've relied on consistently for 40 years for advice or if I needed it, money or whatever I need. And I will say, not to brag, but it's not bragging, it's just the nature of it. Of those 4 men, or 5 men, all 5 are still happily married.

That's true.

All 5 have children who respect them. All 5 are just basically happy.

Yeah.

And I think it's in part the results of those friendships.

Oh, that's been one of the single most profound gifts of my life. You've been one of the most profound gifts of my life. Partly. You know what's funny about that group of our group of 5 guys is you couldn't find 5 more different people. Yeah, right. And the, the beauty of it was the commitment and the covenant where we pushed. That's exactly— we were 20 years old, we didn't know what we were saying, and we pushed in and we said, all right, we, we will not break this, this, this covenant, this vow with one another until we die. Until we die. And no, we have not and we will not. But the thing about it is you think about all the seasons of life where we've been through, or all the generations of birth and births and deaths and, you know, all the transitions and, you know, all the tears that have been cried and all those things that, you know, we've won and we've lost. And, uh, then— and the— how the world has tried to conspire to pull our relationships apart just by proximity, but we've really held to that. And for me, I know personally I'll just say, knowing in those dark places that I could always just reach out.

Oh yeah.

And just knowing that you're there and knowing that the other guys are there is— it's been such a gospel expression. The number of times I talked about earlier, you remember saying about how, you know, Jesus comes, he saves us from our sins, he saves us from, you know, breaks the back of sin and death. But, you know, foundation. He's saving me from myself. And the reason— one of the reasons I love our friendship is the number of times you guys have stepped in and kind of saved me from my own decisions.

Been there, right? Yeah.

Just being able to speak like, hey, I wouldn't do that, or, you know, just loving each other through hard times. And I mean, you know, losing— remember my dad died? I will never forget it. It was last January And walking into that church was packed and turning around and seeing you guys all sitting on the row, it just shattered my heart, man, in the most beautiful way. It was a huge gift to me, man. Yeah, it used to be.

Yeah, no, it's been absolutely incredible. Yep. I could go on. I could write a book about it. Never will. Never talked about in public before. But the only reason I'm saying that is not to brag, but just to say, because it's not anything— I've just been the beneficiary of it. I think it's worth saying it out loud that in some sense it's different, obviously totally different from marriage, but it's the same in the sense that it's the product of a covenant, of a promise to other people that you're just going to abide by. And when you have a 6-month-old and your buddies are like, this year we're meeting in Barbados or wherever we're meeting. Hartford, Connecticut. And your wife is like, what? Yeah, come on now. You've got 3 kids and I'm breastfeeding.

It costs you something to be there big time. Yeah.

And you say them something for a lot.

A lot. And I think they've paid up many times.

All 5 of them support it because they see its fruits. But to say to your wife, I'm sorry, this is a commitment that I made. And she's like, and you never want to make your wife mad, especially when she just bore your child and you do it. And like that. So it does take some sacrifice, not small sacrifice.

No, tremendous. And it's so essential. But the dividends are so exponentially more. I mean, going back to what we're saying, like the importance of male relationship in that is the problem is in the same way we talked about pornography or addiction, one of the things is it pushes you in isolation. Like isolation is a bad thing.

Yes.

And for us as men, as masculine beings, you, you lose perspective on your own masculinity and your own sense of self and your own role as a husband and your own role as a father. And it's essential that you have good, healthy men that can serve as mirrors and reflect and just kind of play catch with you a little bit on these ideas. And exactly, or you, you get in your own your own one-man echo chamber and you start feeling crazy, then you start feeling the shame. I'm not doing this right, or I don't know. And then you start living out a caricature of what you think you should be versus what you kind of really are. And the next thing you know, you want to talk about like, how do marriage problems start? Like, men, you know, there's a great spot, a great place. And for— I think having those healthy relationships for men, certainly for me, has done a tremendous amount in helping me have a healthy marriage because it's helped me regulate my sense of self and also just my vain sense of self.

I got famous in my 20s. I didn't expect to be famous. I got famous.

I would not have handled that well in my 20s.

Well, I don't think I did. But if it hadn't been for you guys, I think I would have been totally off the deep end, completely off the deep end. And our wives, for sure.

We married good women.

For sure. But I know a lot of married men who— your buddies are a little different from your wife because your wife is— thankfully, I think it's harder for your wife to be like, oh, stop it. But you go see your buddies and you're like, who's the cable television show? They're like, cable. They don't care at all. This is true. It's so good. So important. It's so important.

And I think what I I think this was kind of baked into the cake with us because we met when we were 17 or whatever, right? And we met, we were very unimpressive at that time. Not that we're very impressive now, but what happens is that, and I think one of the values of this friendship, and I think it's values of any male, if I could just elevate this one aspect of it, is that we love each other and we respect each other, but we're not overly impressed with each other.

No, not at all.

This might be hard for people to understand, but like when we get together, we will rag on, you know, we will bust each other's chops in a way that only people that have that kind of relationship can do, right? Yeah, you, you, we, you know, lovingly humiliate one another and continuously, continuously.

Yes.

And so, but I think there's, there's a huge value to that. And so for male relationship, we're— what I'm talking about, I'm not— it doesn't have to be some giant therapy session. It just has to be men men that see you that are there, have the ability and willingness to speak that truth into you and say, you know, no, dude, like, you're not all that.

Or, dude, about 10 years ago, I was, you know, I decided one of my children's like, you got to get off nicotine. And I was like, I knew that was— it was obviously it's wrong to get off nicotine. So I get bullied by this.

You love nicotine more than I do.

I really do, always have. But anyway, this one child's like, you are— it's bad for Okay. Which it's not. But anyway, I get off nicotine and immediately go crazy and get fat. And I kind of knew that I was crazy, but I didn't quite realize how fat I was because no one in my world said one word to me about it. And I was like, man, I think my pants shrunk, whatever. We go skiing and I'll never forget it. We get off the tram in Jackson, Wyoming, and the 5 of us, whatever, we're skiing. One of us lives out there. And so anyway, I get off and I'm with one of One of them turns to me, goes, dude, you're fat. I was like, I don't think I'm fat. What? He goes, look at you, you're fat.

It's disgusting.

And I was like, I'm not fat.

He goes, you got your own weather system, man.

I'm on TV every day. I don't think someone would tell me if I was fat. He goes, dude, you're fat.

Someone is telling you.

And I remember this. I went and bought a tin of Copenhagen that night and immediately lost some of the weight. But the point is, I was the only person who would tell me that.

And so gently, too.

I think everybody else noticed. I mean, obviously everyone else noticed, but not one person said one word. Yeah.

But do you know why he did that? Can we go back to use that phrase?

So grateful.

He had earned the right.

Oh, yes.

He was a saint because you knew he loves you, right? And you knew he cared. And you knew—

Godfather to my son. Yes. No, I know.

No, no, I know you're talking about— I—

yeah, you met him.

Yeah, he's kind of fat too.

I agree. Um, anyway, yeah, what an incredible blessing. And I hope this, this conversation doesn't make other people feel— well, I don't know, it's just true. And so I'm glad we—

it is true. I say that— I think— I hope other people hear it, they hear this as an invitation, right?

They—

that whether you're young or especially young people, like, lock in, man. Find your— find your— find your, you know, your— your mat carriers. Yes, find your mat carriers, man. And, uh, because you're gonna need them. Because you're gonna— because one day you're gonna be carrying that, the mat for that guy. But I promise you, your day is coming where you're going to be on the mat and you're not gonna be able to get up, and they're going to need to carry you to where you need to be. And it is true. It is true. It is true as sure as I'm sitting here. And for people that are older, I don't care how that there are men that are— and if you don't go to a church or you don't know a place where people can, can do that, that then you don't have a community, then either look deeper in your church or find another one, because it is so essential and it's so available. Yes, it just is. And it just, it, it just takes the risk of, of being able to step in and a willingness to just tell the truth. And also to be a willingness to be the kind of person that can step in and hear someone else's— as they tell you the truth about their life, and you love them anyway, whether it's said graciously or they, you know, are telling you you're fat in a very unceremonious way, but it's done with love.

And I just think it's— it's— I, I see, I hear it. I just— I, I, I say that as an invitation, man. I think it's good.

Well, I, I hope it is because it's one of the most important things I've ever done after my marriage, the most important thing. So last question, and I think it's something I think about a lot, but your answer when I asked you, what would you say to someone, to anyone who was thinking, well, maybe I'm trans? I thought your answer was wonderful because you approached the person with love. So I want to ask a related question about something that's a kind of trend now. Among people who are really hurting, some of whom I think are wonderful people, veterans. And it's the use of very, very heavy-duty hallucinogens, famously ayahuasca. But there are a bunch of ibogaine. There are a bunch of them to heal them. And the reason that I've never really talked about it is because I want to approach it with that same spirit, because these are some of the best people I know and also some of the most hurting people. And they've done what they were asked to do. In some cases, it meant killing other people. And they've been deeply damaged by it. That's my read. We spend a lot of time talking about how bad it is to be killed.

I think we spend almost no time talking about how bad it is for someone to kill. But it is bad. And I know a lot of people who've done it and it's hurt every one of them. So in that pain or out of that pain, many of them go to hallucinogens, very heavy-duty hallucinogens. And I should just be totally honest, I've used hallucinogens as a child and I was totally convinced, like, that's not for me, that's bad. I was afraid of it. I did it a lot, and I was really afraid of it. I'm very opposed to it, but I want to be open-minded and loving because I know that they are suffering so much. So that's the preamble. My question is, what's your view of that?

Taking that in pieces, I would say, first of all, medically speaking, I I, you know, I don't know, like the— right, I know I've got people that I know that had, uh, medication-resistant depression that had done experimental but medically directed use of certain things that really helped them and with their depressions and things like that. But I don't know enough to speak about that. Um, I would say to someone who's suffering from a PTSD to that level of what you're talking about First of all, in the same way, uh, what would I say? I wouldn't say much in the beginning because I think there's just so— the, the trauma of that is something they never asked for. And if I could distill it down, you know, here's the great tragedy of it, is I would say it's, it's not your fault. Like, it's not your fault in the sense that, you know, you may have done things, but to have those experiences and to be thrust into a context where it's unwinnable, where you're being, you know, you're in war or whatever the context may be. And I know they're nuanced and varied, but like, it's not your fault that you have— you bear the, the sort of intellectual or not, or the, the psychiatric wounds.

And those are real, like, those are neuropathways that are like legitimately carved, right? So I don't wink at that, like, it's a real thing. PTSD is a real medical reality. It's not your fault, comma, but sadly, and this is the tearing of it, it's now your responsibility. So now what are you going to do? How do you choose to step in these directions? And insofar as, you know, there's a range of treatments— I'm not an expert on that, so I'm not going to speak to that— but as far as like hallucinogens, and you say ayahuasca or DMT, or all of a sudden you are meeting figures in the spiritual realm— this is where I— this is where—

that's what I'm specifically talking about.

This is where I have strong opinions, and my strong opinion is that much like I talked about earlier, you know, we live on, you know, we live on a side of a curtain. There's a— there's a— and there are thin places, as you know, like we talk about when I minister to someone by their bedside, is that it's a thin place. You can almost feel that they're crossing over, and that's what the Celtics would call a thin place. It's like heaven and earth or the divine or the supernatural, the unseen realm and the seen realm are beginning to touch, right?

And that's real.

Yeah. And what Jesus says in John 10, he says that, you know, there, there is that inside, and there is that, but I'm the gate. And if you want to go into this, that you want to go through the unseen realm where it produces this life and God, it's— there's a way to do this, and it's through me. I'm the gate. And if you try to climb over the walls and you try to get in any other way, You're doing that. Guess what? You're a robber and you're a thief, and you're trying to gain the things of God without God, and you're trying to gain access to the divine and the unseen and all the— all you want, the cookies in the cookie jar, but you don't— but you're not going through the gate. And, uh, what I would say is you read stories about DMT and you read people, and I, you know, I've never done it. I don't— I, I but I know people that have dabbled in that quite a bit. And I know that when you hear encounters that— I've, I've crossed over and I've had this, this encounter with all these beings, and there was this purple woman that I talked to, and I developed this relationship.

It's like I was there for years, but I was almost there for 10 minutes. And then somebody else goes and has the same trip and goes in, and he comes back and says, hey, I met a purple woman who knew your name and was asking about which that's documented reality.

I know people that— many people, right?

So what I'm telling you is there— this isn't just some psychiatric mind-bending exercise. You're actually crossing. You're, you're crawling. You're not going through the gate. You're crawling over the fence, but into a real pattern, into a real, into a real place that is demonic. And those are— you are, you are encountering, uh, I think it's a demonic experience, and I think it's a dangerous one because what's so dangerous about it—

and this is true, it's not your imagination. That's what you're saying.

It's not your imagination. So when Jesus— or you read in the book of Deuteronomy or another place, it says you don't practice necromancy, don't do magic, don't get involved in tarot cards or all that kind of stuff. What he's not saying is there's no power there. What he's saying is actually the reason it's a warning is there's a lot going on over there, but it's really dangerous and it's not of God, it's not of Jesus, and it's dangerous. And what's so dangerous about it is that it the people that encounter this, generally speaking, and people listen, you know, for as many people there are different experiences, but when people step into those places and they have these encounters, they have this profound sense of enlightenment. They feel special, they feel seen, they feel good, they feel, oh, and it's just like, it's like a taste they get. It's like the crack dealer giving the taste on the playground and then the kid just gets deeper and deeper, and they— what they think is giving them life is really hollowing them out from the inside. And I think what's happening in those experiences is the deeper you go, and you, you will one day wake up and discover that you have been dabbling in, in, in a demonic realm that, that promised you life, but is actually an insight and progression and enlightenment, but it has really been hollowing you out from the inside.

Taking you away from the source of light, taking you away from the source of forgiveness, of redemption that is only in Jesus, and, uh, you know, distorting the image in which you were created. And I think it's a dangerous place, and I would— I— that scares me for people that do that now, where people, especially those— like, I have a lot of compassion for people like Ibogaine or people that are in PTSD. And again, if there's a medical shallow end of that pool that has some that's you know, running through the unseen realm. And so, I mean, I don't know, but people that do that recreation, they're on some spiritual safari to go into that place. I'm like, man, I would caution you against that. That's one place you don't need to go to know you don't want to be there. Amen.

The Reverend Billy Cerveny, a phrase I never get tired of using.

One that still feels ironic to me.

God bless you.

God bless you, man.

I love you.

Good to see you.