Transcript of Two, Three, Four Missions a Night: Ranger Regiment at War | Will Hutson

We ended up like getting into it with like a, an Iraqi, uh, artillery, um, like battalion. And, you know, the mortar platoon, you know, like I, I was in the 60 section at the time at the companies and, you know, we were actually like shooting mortars at artillery pieces and, you know, shooting, uh, which I felt, I felt like was pretty cool. You know, we're out there doing like direct lay missions with 60s and, you know, hitting vehicles with, uh, you know, Willie P rounds. And I had a, I had a 105 round land like I don't know, 4 feet from me. And it didn't go off. It was a dud. Probably didn't vaporize, but the pucker factor was up for sure. But that's, that was probably the, the biggest, you know, I'd say for like a contact that I really remember being like, okay, now we're really in combat.

Hey everyone. Welcome to The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with today's guest, retired Sergeant Major Will Hudson. Will served in the infantry in 173rd, jumped into Iraq during the invasion, and then he went over to 3rd Ranger Battalion where he served for many years, becoming a RASP instructor eventually, and then taking a WORCE company and going on, you know, as he made Sergeant Major, became the Ops Sergeant Major at Airborne School and finished his career in the 101st. So a really, I mean, you kind of had the infantry career, I guess. The only thing you didn't do was be a drill sergeant. You were a RASP instructor. That's the only difference.

Yeah.

But no, that's great. Thank you for joining us, Will.

Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Yeah. So start at the beginning, Will. Tell us, like, where did you grow up? What was your upbringing like?

Okay. So I was born in Kentucky. That's where my dad's side of the family from, outside of Lexington. We moved from there to Texas when I was about 4 years old, following my mom's family to Texas. Lived outside of Houston in Pearland for the majority of my life before I joined the Army. Had a pretty rough, uh, growing up. We were, we were super poor and had a pretty, I don't know, uh, kind of abusive growing up childhood with, through my stepfather and stuff like that. And had a pretty, pretty tough go of it initially. Um, and it's kind of, I guess, what driven me, drove me to join the military is, you know, I, I was really a kind of a lost cause. I was running around, uh, in the streets, you know, I was on my own from that early teens. I got my first apartment when I was about 16 years old with a couple of buddies, and we were just, I don't know, what you would expect for somebody with no adult supervision, you know, for years and years on end. We were just drinking and partying and getting in trouble constantly.

I ended up, before I joined the Army, I was working at a, at a bar in Houston and bartending and just drinking nonstop, partying nonstop. And I knew that if I didn't do something, I was going to end up dead or in jail. And so I really was looking to do something different. One of my close friends I grew up with, Josh Gamboa, he was in 2nd Ranger Battalion. Uh, he joined the Army about 2 years before I did, and, uh, he would come home on leave and, you know, we'd do the usual, you know, burn it down while he was home on leave. And then, uh, I just kind of started getting more interested in what he was doing. He would tell me, uh, what it was like, uh, to be in Ranger Battalion. So I kind of had more of an inside look to what it was actually like to be in battalion, uh, because, you know, my best friend growing up was there for a couple of years. And he's the one who actually kind of talked me into joining the military. I joined the Army, and my plan was to try to get an Option 40 contract to go straight to regiment, but it didn't work out because the slots weren't available.

He told me that he was, you know, he was good friends with the liaison that worked at Airborne School, which, you know, is usually you can just volunteer from Airborne School with the RIP liaison back then at the time, and he can set you up. And for me, that didn't work out because he was on TDY when I was in Airborne School. So I ended up going to the 173rd. which I wouldn't change, you know, for, for that time in my life. I, I had so much fun, you know, before the GI kicked off, being in Europe, you know, I can, you know, in Italy, I was, you know, 4 hours in any direction on a train, you can be in a different country. I was, you know, snowboarding in the Swiss Alps and doing all kinds of outdoor activities, rock climbing, riding bikes, doing all that stuff. And, uh, I really enjoyed my time there. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. And, uh, kind of in that time, then there was a lot of guys from Ranger Battalion that were inside the organization. That was before the GWOT kicked off. A lot of guys would kind of go out there to take a break.

And so, you know, like, you had squad leaders, platoon sergeants, you know, battalion commanders, our major, a lot of people from regiment there. And so I always kind of emulated those guys. And I, you know, I really wanted to be in Ranger Battalion from the get-go, but it just didn't work out. So I had them to look up to. And so the first chance I got, I wanted to still try to go out there. So, you know. I got to Ranger School and did all that and put in my packet once I made it back to the States, you know, after, you know, went to Italy. I had an awesome time there too. We got to really do a lot of cool training. We were training in different countries, you know, going to Belgium and jumping out of hot air balloons and, you know, going, you know, I had probably 5 or 6 sets of foreign jump wings within my first year or 2 of being there, you know, just because we're always training with other countries and got a lot of opportunities to do a lot of really cool stuff. And kind of, you know, we went to Africa, we went to Hungary, we went all over Europe.

all over the Eastern Bloc training different places. Inside of Italy itself, there's not a lot of places you can really do live fires except for the Italian base there. So you really have to go to Germany or other countries to really get into some of the more maneuver live fire stuff. And so we were, we were just on the road a lot. And for me, that was great because I was single. I didn't have any dependents or anything going on. So anytime we would go somewhere else, they would give us time off to go kind of, you know, like R&R for a few days and explore and go around. And I try to take full advantage of that every chance I got.

Yeah, it sounds like, uh, living the dream, uh, especially as a, you know, 20-something-year-old, uh, airborne infantryman. Uh, were you there when, uh, 9/11 happened and did you see things change, uh, afterwards?

Yeah, it's funny actually. When, uh, when 9/11 happened, I was in Grafenwoehr. We were doing training. 2nd Ranger Battalion was there at the same time as well. And so my buddy Josh was there and actually went over and was hanging out with him, and he introduced me to the battalion CSM at the time and told him that I wanted to come to Ranger Battalion. You know, and this was— I was— I might have been at PFC, I can't remember. I think I was probably a private or specialist, somewhere in there. And he told me all I had to do was go to Ranger School, and he would— I think it was Sergeant Major Roberts at the time was the battalion CSM.

Oh, yeah.

And so he introduced me to them, had that link up. And then, um, right as we were finishing getting ready to go to Hohenfels to do a box rotation, that's when it happened. And I had gotten in a car accident in the rental car that I had, so I'd stayed back and was meeting everybody in Hohenfels. And like that day, 9/11 happened. And, uh, you know, we didn't, we didn't have cell phones or any of that stuff. And, uh, I just started seeing tanks rolling out, um, and parking on the corners of the bases for like force protection stuff. I was like, what's going on? I ended up going into a shop that somebody had AFN on. And it popped up that the, uh, the towers were going down. I was like, oh crap, what's going on? You know? And then of course everybody's like, we're going to war, you know? Yeah, like Starship Troopers. Yeah. And so the box rotation got turned up a little bit, but we're like, man, I thought we were getting ready to go to war. We're out here training in miles gear, you know?

Yeah. Um, so it sounds like, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, the 173rd kind of Didn't get spun up until Iraq happened the following year.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, we didn't, we never went to Afghanistan, uh, but I, I didn't go anywhere until we invaded Iraq and, uh, we were, we jumped into Northern Iraq and we're there. We did a year-long deployment and came home.

Can, uh, can you tell us about kind of like, uh, getting ready for that deployment, preparing for it and like what the mission was, um, leading up to the actual combat jump?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we, we, uh, we were just doing a lot of, uh, you know, consolidated. We spent a lot of time in Germany because that's where we do all my new live fire stuff out in Grafenwoehr. And so we were doing a lot of squad, platoon, company live fires, um, you know, going in and out of the box, just doing rotations. And then, uh, we ended up, you know, launching out of, uh, Aviano. So we had, I think, 15 C-17s out there.

Wow.

That we, uh, we loaded up and we got the big, you know, steak, the surf and turf dinner, steak and lobster tails and all this stuff. And we didn't, you know, I don't know. like, looking back on it now, it's— I don't know, I didn't think it was that serious. I was like, oh sweet, we're getting steak and lobster. I didn't, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just ready to go do the thing, you know? And we all are, you know, our DCUs and all our plus-up stuff that we were, we were gonna go. And, and, uh, I don't— we were only probably— I want to say we're in Algona for a couple days, but I can't really remember for sure. And, you know, we had every— all, all the people out there, AFN was out there reporting on everything. We're all, you know, getting, uh, geared up, but I don't know what was released and what, you know, because I was— I think I was a— yeah, I was an E-5 at the time. I was a jump master. And so we're just trying to get everybody geared up and get every— everybody jam-pied and all the birds.

And, you know, we're all camoed up and, uh, just ready. It was— the, the jump itself was— I really didn't know what to expect, to be honest. You know, we got on the birds and, you know, we didn't know if we're gonna— you know, the only thing that's in the back of my head is what was going on in Normandy in World War II.

Right.

Which clearly wasn't what we, what we came into, you know. Um, but you know, the, the nerves were up, all that stuff. We were packed in everything that we had to live off of was in our rucksacks and 1950s and all that stuff. And, and so we got, we got jocked up, ready to go, and, and we got in the flight and we, I want to say we hooked up like probably 20 minutes out and, and at cruising altitude. And then we went from like 30 grand all the way down to drop altitude and the doors opened and we were out, you know. And, uh, there was— we didn't really get any contact on the ground. There was a massive air campaign that night. They were dropping bombs everywhere. Fast movers escorting us in. And honestly, we jumped into a massive mud pit and we spent the majority of the time just trying to consolidate everybody. You were just like low, low crawling through mud for what seemed like hours, you know, just trying to get everything together, trying to get everyone consolidated. You know, it was like a— Just a real kind of crap show on the ground.

Like just mud everywhere. It was like knee deep.

If I understood you correctly, you guys flew from Aviano straight to Iraq. Yeah. That's so like such a crazy experience. Like, yeah, like you were describing eating surf and turf in Italy, getting on an airplane, and the next time you touch ground, you're at a, in a muddy drop zone in Iraq. Like that's gotta be like a very weird sensation.

Oh, for sure. And like I said, I didn't, I didn't genuinely know what to expect. We're gonna hit the ground and, you know, just in the back of my head we're gonna be in a massive firefight and it was going to be out of control, which really wasn't the case. There might have, there might have been some small contact, but, uh, we didn't really get into gunfights on the drop zone. Yeah, I think, I feel like it was several days later before we really got into any, any type of mixing it up and ticks.

So you guys were, this was, um, If I recall correctly, it was designed as sort of like a classic, um, you know, flanking maneuver, the way we use airborne forces to envelope the enemy. Like you were inserted into Northern Iraq as the force's main body was coming up from the south, from Kuwait.

Yep. Yeah. So we, we jumped into Erbil on the north side and, uh, secured their airfield there and then started bringing heavies in. So they started landing equipment and doing all that stuff. We spent several days that kind of in that area before we started pushing out in the sector and, uh, you know, started taking out, you know, we're taking over schools and stuff like that to try to find places for, uh, to live in, you know. But we left, we slept in patrol bases for, seemed like, you know, I want to say we went like a good 2 or 3 months without, you know, like probably I had my first makeshift shower like 70 days in or something like that.

Wow.

My uniform was rotten off my body. It'd stand up on its own. You don't really realize how bad everyone else's stinks until you get that first. Yeah. Then you cleanse it like, oh man, I can smell it now.

What was, uh, the mission that they had you guys doing, um, during that time?

We were just kind of in sector doing, uh, setting up, uh, blocking positions and things of that nature. Uh, we were doing some presence patrolings and, um, just trying to set up some sort of infrastructure. Cause like I said, we slept in patrol bases for at least a couple of months, you know, until we got into some hard structures and we ended up taking over, you know, like a company would take over a school and we would set up security perimeter and kind of launch out and do patrols from there. But our biggest problem we had was logistics, you know, which is always what drives everything. I mean, we were living off of a liter, a bottle of water a day for— I can't even tell you how many months, you know. And it's like, really, when the IEDs started kind of, um, ramping up, you know, nobody was really ready for them. We were just cruising around soft-skinned Humvees. And, you know, once we started getting blown up in them, they're like, oh, we got to do something about this. So we started putting sandbags on the floorboards, and then Eventually we got some Kevlar blankets to kind of outfit them a little bit, but we were really not at all prepared for that type of, uh, environment.

That's interesting that the IEDs started up so quickly.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember we get, you know, we're probably a few months in before we really started hitting some IEDs and we lost a couple of guys to, to that. And, um, that's really what kind of went with the Kevlar blankets and stuff started showing up that we could kind of outfit the Humvees a little bit because we really didn't have any protection outside of that and body armor, you know.

And did you guys make your way down to Kirkuk? Was that sort of where you finished?

We did. Yeah. Yeah, we made it down to that area and I'm trying to remember honestly, man, cause it's been so many years now and so many deployments past, but, uh, yeah, I think I would say in around the Kirkuk area is kind of where we finished out. And we, you know, it's, you know, first you find out, you think you're there for 3 months and 6 months, and then, you know, it's gonna be 15 months and nobody really has any idea. Uh, you know, so I think we ended up doing it, doing a 12, 13 months before we made it back.

Any other memorable moments from that deployment before, uh, you guys redeployed back home?

Um, for the most part it was, you know, we spent, uh, A lot of time training. We spent a lot of time, you know, doing, uh, presence patrols, a lot of long, uh, long-haul patrols in vehicles. Uh, we did a lot of foot dismounted patrols too, just based off of, you know, when we started getting hit with IED threats and stuff. But I really honestly, um, outside of a few, a handful of times, we didn't really get into a lot of heavy combat. You know, there was initially in the push, we you know, we ended up like get— getting into it with like a, an Iraqi, uh, artillery, um, like battalion. And, you know, the mortar platoon, we, you know, like I, I was in the 60 section at the time at the companies and, you know, we were actually like shooting mortars at artillery pieces and, you know, shooting, uh, which I felt, I felt like was pretty cool. You know, we're out there doing like directly missions with 60s and, you know, hitting vehicles with, uh, you know, Willie P rounds. And, you know, I had a, I had a 105 round land like— I don't know, 4 feet from me.

It didn't go off. It was a dud. Probably didn't vaporize, but the pucker factor was up for sure.

Yeah.

But that's, that was probably the, the biggest, you know, I'd say for like a contact that I, I really remember being like, okay, now we're really in combat, you know? Because up until that point, it just really didn't feel that way. You know what I mean? We were, I don't know, say it was maybe 3 to 4 weeks After we jumped in, before we really got into that. And, um, that was the first time I was like, okay, now we're actually in combat. Bullets are flying, artillery rounds, you know, we're, you know, we, we shot all of our rounds out and we're like, okay, now we got to break contact and go re— re-plus on ammo. Um, I feel like that was really the first time that throughout that lead-in that we really felt like we were in combat.

Yeah, that's pretty hardcore. Um, so you guys, or you, uh, ended up getting sent to Fort Polk after the invasion.

Yeah. So after, uh, after we, uh, came back from the invasion, I was on PCS orders to go to Fort Polk, but I had to go to a BNOC en route. Cause I was, uh, you know, I went to, I was, uh, I had went to the like staff sergeant board while we were forward deployed to Iraq. And, um, so like I was, Either— I can't remember if I, I was promotable for several months. I can't remember if I had pinned Staff Sergeant yet or if I was still a Sergeant promotable. But anyways, I had BNOC en route, and I don't remember if we had to go to school back then yet or not beforehand. But anyways, I went to BNOC en route, and when I was in BNOC, I started trying to put together a packet to go to, get to go to regiment. You know, I got in contact with the in-service recruiter and started building the packet as soon as I got to Fort Polk. The reason I was going to Fort Polk is Originally I was supposed to be an OC. Well, which is kind of strange as a new staff sergeant.

It's usually a more seasoned guy that's going to be an OC, you know, so maybe OPFOR. But anyways, when I was heading there, they stood up the 4th Brigade of the 10th Mountain there.

A, uh, for, for listeners, an OC is what? Observer controller. They're like the referees in training exercises.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's usually a more seasoned guy. So if you're a staff sergeant, you've already been a squad leader and done that time. So you can go out there and evaluate squads, or if you're, you know, a sergeant first class, you've already been a platoon sergeant, so you can go out there and kind of show those other guys or observe them properly. And that, like I said, I was a new, a new staff sergeant, so more than likely I probably would end up, you know, going to an OPFOR platoon or something like that. But they stood up the 4th Brigade of the 10th Mountain there, and so anybody who was an infantry person showing up to Fort Polk just got funneled into that because they were trying to fill a brigade, you know. And, um, so I got there and they're like, oh, you're a staff sergeant, sweet, here's 100 privates. You're just going to be in charge of these guys until more people show up. And I was like, sweet, I'm putting a packet in to go to Rope, you know? And it's funny, the guy who showed up, Joseph Montour, he was one of the battalion CSMs coming in.

Well, he was my first sergeant in Italy, and he grew up in Ranger Battalion. And I went and saw him, and he pulled me in.

He's like, oh, you're coming by battalion?

I was like, that's awesome, Sergeant Major. I appreciate you pulling me in and all that stuff. And I had already submitted a packet to go to Rope and all that stuff. You know, and I told him, I was like, you know, I'm excited, I'm trying to go to Ranger Battalion. He's like, that's awesome. He's like, well, you know, we'll see what we can do and get you there. And I was like, I already have a school date, but I didn't tell him that. I'm like, he'll figure it out, you know. Like a week later, I'm in his office, he's like, he's like, hey man, what's going on? I see you got a school date. I was like, yeah, I didn't want to tell you that I'd already got a slot and end up in a bad position there, you know. I didn't want to tell you that you were wrong and that I was still going to go.

So since you were an NCO, this was like part of the deal, like you need to go to Ranger School before you can go assess at ROPE.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I already had my Ranger tab and so it wasn't a big deal. So I just really needed to get a packet. So I needed to get some letters of recommendation. So I got a couple of those together and got my packet, submitted all that up. As soon as, as soon as that got approved, then they gave me a school date and I went to ROPE, uh, not really knowing exactly what to expect, to be honest.

Yeah.

Uh, outside of, you know, I, I'd talked to my friend Josh, but, you know, he went through RIP, he'd gone through ROPE. So, another animal in itself, you know. Uh, so I just tried to show up as ready as I could and got out there. And, and I honestly, when I got to Rope, I was really impressed by the professionalism and everything that was run by the course at the time. Um, you know, it was— I won't say it's more of a gentleman's course than RIP is, you know, you know, being the NCOIC of, uh, RASP and kind of at the transition between RIP and RASP, but I you know, you know, back in the day, I mean, obviously you went through RIP. So like, if you can get hazed for 3 weeks, you'll be okay. You know, that doesn't mean you're going to be a good Ranger. You know what I mean? So the proof is in the pudding when looking at the stats, you know, I think probably 85% or so of RIP students ended up getting RFS'd. And I think we went 2, almost 3 years before we RFS'd the first RASP 1 graduate, just because of—

Oh, because they're better trained?

Oh yeah. For one, you just weed those guys out throughout the course. Instead of it being 3 weeks, it's 8 weeks. The first 3 weeks is kind of like the common core, small unit tactics, land navigation, weapons systems, all that stuff. When you get into Phase 2, we give them time off, give them nights and weekends, and it's marksmanship, mobility, breaching, all that. And if they're going to mess something up, they're going to do it while they're there. And so we weed all that— all that stuff happens while they're in the course still until we get rid of them before they ever make it to the tie-ins.

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Oh yeah, for sure. Well, because when I do the in-brief as NCOIC, I'd always tell them, say, look, man, you guys look to your left and right because at the end of the day, when it comes down to the last week and you're going to the commander's board, the person to the left and right is going to be the one who sells you out. Because, you know, we're going to get— we're going to give you the briefing, like things you can do. You're going to have your time off, but you still can't drink alcohol. You can't go party. You can't, you know, can't go to off-limits establishments. And the person next to you is going to be doing the right thing and you're not, and they're going to get mad about it and they're going to sell you out. And it's going to come up on the commander's board every single time, same thing. You know, guys were like, no, I wasn't doing anything. Like, really? And you pull up the computer, you go to Facebook, and you turn around, it's them like partying down in Auburn, like at Sky Bar. You're like, oh, so this isn't you?

Like, oh, this is awkward. I'm like, yep, trying to tell you guys, you know. But it's always how it goes, you know. They always sell each other out, you know, because we, you know, at the end of time, we do, we do course critiques and all that, and that's when all that stuff comes out.

So, I mean, back, back in the day, uh, what was ROPE like when you went through it?

Uh, so for me, it was, it was, uh, it's eye-opener. And honestly, it was just because I had never had any experience with regiment outside of guys in the 173rd. Um, and so when I got there, I was— I felt like it was a really professionally ran course, you know. The, the cadre were professional. They weren't yelling and screaming, all stuff. Just like, you kind of go to the the dry erase board and it has time, location, uniform, where you need to be and when. And so you show up at— and you do that event, and then they're like, okay, go look at the board, it'll be the next timeline, you know. So it's like, you know, I feel like most guys stress out about the critical events, you know, the APFT, the 5-miler, the 12-miler, all that stuff. Like, that first week is when you do all the critical events, but that's the easiest week of PT that you do there, is as a week you're doing those critical events, you know. Like, okay, now the critical events are knocked out, now we're doing PT with the cadre every day. And, you know, like one day we did the gate-to-gate run.

I think it was like a, a 12-mile run in uniform. We hit like 6 or 7 obstacle courses. And, you know, all the cadre, you know, still to this day it's always been like the cadre who worked there were like genetically superior.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, like, yeah, the super athletes always working there, you know. And guys that are, you know, they can deadlift £400 but also run a 5-minute mile for 5 miles, you know. And so trying to keep up with them. And it was really an eye-opener for me. Like, man, I don't, I don't know if I'm prepared enough to be ready for, for this, you know? Like, I, I've always had a, had an issue being fast. Like, I, I can run the same pace for 30 miles, but like, I can't get any faster, you know what I mean? And so speed's always been my biggest crux. I can always, you know, meet the standard, but it's always been a struggle for me to get faster. And so, uh, I, uh, but I never quit anything. And so I feel like that was a big part of the assessment is, you know, they bring the psych out there and they're watching you and how you're acting at all the events and how you're responding to things. And, you know, 'cause I don't, I'm trying to remember if they did any of this, but I know that when I was working at RASP, we would, we would work some, you know, like we would, uh, you know, rest.

You would come out of the field. And, um, we got— we kind of go out to Cole Range at the same time. RASP 2 is doing their FTX, and RASP 1 is doing their, you know, land navigation and field training stuff at the same time. And the way it usually works is based off of, you know, let's say there's 10 officers in the class, then there will be 10 missions. So each officer gets an opportunity to be a platoon leader or company commander, whatever the case may be, and they're doing whatever mission. Maybe it's a, you know, down Black Hawk or whatever the case is. But when they get out there, we give them, we give them like a squad of privates and we're like, hey, you have got to teach these guys how to read a map, how to plot land navigation, and they will take you to the points and they're finding the points. And, you know, it's, it's not necessarily like, can they find them? It's like how, just assessing them as a leader.

Right.

You know, a lot of times what guys do is they just get mad. They take the map like, don't worry about it, I'm just gonna do it. And they just take the dudes and lead them to the points and they come back and they fail. And they're like, I don't understand why. I'm like, well, because you missed the whole point. The point was to sit down with the soldiers, teach them how to read a map, how to plot the points, lead— let them lead to the land nav site. Even if you don't find the point, you can still recorrect, you know, reorient them, try to find another point, all that stuff. And so we, we would do a lot of that. And so my point being is when they would come out, so for, for the field problem, at the end of the field problem, they're usually out there for I don't know, you're up for about 24 or 26 hours like that, just running through all the missions. And we come out and we'll do something to just mess with them mentally, you know. We'll come out there and start reading APFT standards, and, and they would— and have them do like a minute of push-ups, a minute sit-ups, and do like a half-mile run or something.

Not because you're assessed, just to see if they're gonna be like, oh, what are we doing? Or you're like, okay, everybody, everybody pack up, we're walking back to the barracks, you know, from Cole Range to back to the barracks is, I don't know, like 18, 20 miles. And just take off at like a, you know, really fast pace, doing like 10-minute mile pace. And they don't know it, but when you get a mile down the road around the corner, the buses are there just to see who's gonna, you know—

Yeah, yeah.

Overreact to what's happening. Like, oh man, we're just gonna see how you're gonna react. The buses are right around the corner, you know. And I don't, you know, we did some of that, but that's always like the, the mental piece to it, to like see, are you gonna quit? You know, overreact, you know. Like, I, I was pretty beat up. I was— I went to the— I went to the feed store and I got like horse liniments for racehorses, and I was like rubbing it in my skin. I was like, I could taste metal, I could taste metal. I probably had too much. Oh, just try to— just try to— just try to stay healthy through the course. But, you know, I made it through. I was somewhere in the middle of the road, you know. I wasn't the best, I wasn't the worst, but somewhere in the middle. I got hammered in the board. Just like, I don't think anybody ever leaves a rope or RAS 2 board feeling good, you know, even guys, you know, especially now, you know, guys, you can be in regiment for 16 years, go to RAS 2 and still get fired, you know.

And so like, I, I know when I went to the board out, I was the very last guy. I was out in the hallway for hours just pacing back and forth. I'm like, I don't know what's going on. They were calling down to 375. I didn't know this until later, talked about it. Yeah, they called me like, you sure you want this guy? I was like, well, I'm glad you told him that you did because that's the only way I got here.

Uh, so, and, uh, you get assigned to 3rd Ranger Battalion right down the street. Did you go, uh, straight to mortar section?

Yeah, I went straight to the mortar platoon. And, uh, I, at the time, you know, I can't, I don't know what year, I think it was around '03, '04, somewhere around there is when they went to the consolidated concept. where the mortar platoon is all at HHC, and then you have sections that go out to the companies.

Yep.

Because we have all, you know, so the consolidated mortar platoon concept is we've got like 21 mortar systems, you know, we've got a 60 team for every platoon, and then we also have 4 81s and 4 120s, and you have to be able to be proficient on all the systems at all times, and we just hash out. So like at the time, coming in as a staff sergeant, I was like, Originally, I was going to BCO, so I was like the BCO mortar section leader, but we still stayed consolidated at the battalion at HHC for all of our, you know, our MORTEP events and stuff like that. But we've always done— we do everything that a line platoon does during the training cycle, but then we do all the mortar stuff on top of it. So we kind of have to be a jack of all trades, you know. So we would go through squad, platoon, You know, team, squad, platoon live fires. And then when the platoons are doing platoon live fires, we'll put our HESH guys out there. So they're going to the platoon live fires with the platoons as well. But at the same time, we're still supporting all the platoon live fires at the battalion level.

So we're having to do all of our mortar mission on top of all of the other missions as well. So it's just a lot to stay on top of, and it was a lot to manage. But one of the things I love more about anything in Ranger Battalion is your ability to just do really anything that you can imagine. So any, if you have a good idea, that's something smarter, a better way to do something, you can just bring it to the table. And as long as the commanders go with it, you can go forward with it. You know, when I was a mortar platoon sergeant, we had a lot of, you know, cause like when we were in Iraq, there wasn't a lot, there wasn't really mortar missions. You know, you might have one occasionally, but, um, you always had the 60 teams out, but there's still, we had so many assets and so many things. There wasn't really a mortar mission. So you got to find a way to stay engaged in the fight. And so I started putting in climbing— I started buying equipment and putting in climbing teams, and I had my guys doing squirter interdiction.

And that's where we really started to take off because the issues we were having is we would come back from— I'd have 60 teams out with all the platoons, and they'd come back from deployment after getting after it with the platoons the whole time. There's 60 teams, but they're still just going out with the squads and doing the same thing.

Right. They're putting them on Humvees, having them be like .50 cal gunners and all that good stuff.

Yeah. Or they're just jumping in with the fire teams and running and gunning with the platoons the whole time. They come back and they're like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to— I'm reclassing 11 Bravo and I'm gonna go to the platoons. And so we were just like losing guys left and right and trying to— it's hard. It's a hard sell, you know? It's like, we all want to do that mission, but somebody's got to do this one. Because we're all infantrymen, you know. The only difference between 11 Bravo and 11 Charlie is the letter at the end of your MOS, you know what I mean? We all go through the same basic training, AIT, all that stuff. We just— at the end of AIT, they're like, hey, you're a Charlie. You're like, sweet. You know, when I came in Army, we had 11 Charlies, Bravos, Mikes, and Hotels, you know.

Yeah.

And it was just like, uh, whatever you landed at, you know. And, and so it was a hard sell. And so I had to find a way to keep guys engaged. Like, look, man, we have a really good mission set here. We just have, we have to have the intellect to incorporate it properly. So like at the beginning of every training cycle, all the platoon leaders and platoon sergeants have an in-brief with the battalion commander, just walking them through the training cycle and how you're going to get after what you're going to do all the way until you get out the door. And so I would sit down, me and my platoon leader sat down with the battalion commander, and we're like, this is our plan. You know, we're doing, we're going to meet all of your requirements for the mortar mission, but we're also doing, you know, all the— All the live fires up to platoon at our platoon level. That way, if we need to go out in a unilateral mission to be able to— another platoon for you, we can do that. We're also putting climbing teams together and we're going to do— so our guys can provide isolation for the platoons.

And then that's another problem that they don't have to worry about. So we'll do isolation. We'll handle squirting and addiction, which in my opinion is where all the fun is anyways. It's cool to go in and clear house, but doing SSE is not any fun. You know what I mean? But sitting up on a ladder shooting people as they're running out the back door, or just flying around on a helicopter landing and smoking them as they're running off the objective, way more fun than spending all night and trying to do SSC and lay everything out and take pictures and grab hard drives and all that good stuff.

Was it difficult coming in as, you know, as they say, an import into Ranger Battalion? And there's a bit of a stigma, but it can be overcome, of course. I mean, was that kind of a challenge for you at all?

Yeah, for sure. I, I, it was always in the back of my head, but, uh, you know, just like as we were talking earlier, you know, we were in 375 at the same time together. You know, it's like you're all so busy going so many different directions. You can be in the same battalion with somebody for 8 years and not know them because every company, every platoon is, you know, because we're fighting as platoons and we're all moving in different directions at different times and it's just hard to keep track. So I just try to show up and be humble and try to learn as much as I could. And, uh, just try to outwork everybody the best way that I had in my ability to. And, and my experience was within a training cycle and a deployment, nobody even remembers that you're an import outside of, you know, the guys in my platoon obviously knew, but when all the, all the companies you're working with, everyone just kind of assumes that you've always been there.

Yeah.

Unless you're jacked up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was going to say, I mean, that means you were doing a good job that you weren't like on the radar.

Yeah, for sure.

Um, what was your first, uh, deployment with 375?

Uh, to Ramadi. I went with, uh, with B Company to Ramadi. I think it was, uh, Rob Phipps was— it was Rob Phipps and I'm trying to remember who the other platoon sergeant was. It's, um, Ray Barrett. We're the 2 platoon sergeants. Yeah.

Rob Phipps was one of my RIP cadre.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love Rob. We're still good friends to today. And he was actually my first sergeant at the selection and training when I was running RASP. Um, but, and, uh, you know, I had a, that was an awesome deployment because we were just, I think there was 3 days that entire deployment where we didn't do anything. And that was because we got stood down when the AMZ hit happened and we lost all assets to—

Oh yeah.

Because they were doing that. And so we spent, you know, a couple of days just kind of hanging out and watching movies or whatever, but the rest of the time we were just getting after it every single day. I mean, I think, um, we were hitting 2, 3, 4 missions a night, you know, coming back, uh, restocking ammo, everything, running back out. We never stopped that entire rotation, just hit for the whole time.

This is when they had you guys doing time-sensitive targets just back to back to back.

Yeah, it was just nonstop, go, go, go the whole time, which was awesome. You're like, it's one, it was just like in my experience, like, I, I really enjoyed my time outside of regiment, and I had a phenomenal time in the 173rd. There's a lot of great leaders, but combat-related, like, it was the first time I really felt like I was in combat. I was like, this is what combat's like. We're, you know, we're just getting out here and getting after it every single night, you know. We're getting in ticks every night. We're getting, you know— But we didn't have a lot of, uh, you know, friendly casualties, you know, so we We were doing it the right way.

Yeah.

We were still getting training in between. You know, we were at, at Shark Base using the range down the road. So if we were not on target, we're out at the range shooting. Um, you know, I had my guys incorporated with, with the platoons and doing everything, and we had a lot of trust with them. And, and, uh, we really— I don't know, it was a phenomenal rotation with me. And, you know, I, I'd still have a great relationship with Rob Phipps, and, you know, he took us in and Kind of took under his wing and really helped me out a lot there. And I made a lot of really good close friends on that first rotation.

Are there any, uh, memorable, uh, combat missions you were on from that rotation?

Um, well, there's— I mean, we— there was a lot of them. I actually— I— the only Valorous Award I have came from that rotation, and it was— we were, uh, I don't remember everything on, uh, all the specifics on it, but we, we were going to hit a target. Um, we, we spent, man, we, we were doing everything out of Strykers for the most part. We got helos a few times, but for the most part we were launching Strykers. But we were getting blown up every time we went out the door. I mean, we blew up so many Strykers that we had started getting, uh, there for a while. We had, uh, had some, um, Bradleys coming in.

Wow.

I can't remember if it was a guy, D, or somebody was in there. They just brought those Bradleys in. I rode them back in the thing. I was like, man, this the last thing. Like, you just feel like— I don't even know how to explain it. I was like, I don't know how people do this every day. Because, you know, when you're in the back of a Stryker, it's pretty smooth sailing. You can still see what's going on. You have a feel. But like, when you're in the back of that Bradley, I was like, man, I feel like I'm going to die every second that I'm in here. I don't know what's going on. It's loud. We're bouncing. I don't, you know, I can't see anything. I don't know what's going on. Um, but yeah, we, we hit— we were just getting blown up nonstop going out the gates, blown you know, hitting roadside bombs, blowing the wheels off Strykers, and then going into recovery operations. And, uh, so we were doing a lot in Strykers. And when we went on the— on this one, uh, this one target, and, uh, there was, uh, at the time, me and my PL, um, Tony Keller, were, uh, at the time we were, we were kind of doing, running the mobility for them.

So me and him were kind of heading the, heading up the, um, kind of route clearance stuff and, and running the vehicles, manning the, you know, all the RWSs and drivers and, uh, gunners and TCs to just get more guys and guns in the fight. And so we, we went on target. Uh, one of the squads had gotten pinned down and they were trying to break contact, but they couldn't because we were, we were getting a lot of heavy gunfire. So I jumped in the Stryker, I went and, um, went and took my Stryker to basically block, block them off. And both my, mine and my PL's RWSs went down. So we're on top of there like free gunning. He's free gunning his .50 cal. I've got a 240 running off the side and we're just, we're just trying to lay down suppressive fire in order to get the guys so they can break contact to get out of there. And, and so I just basically put myself in front of them and was trying to, to let the Stryker eat all those rounds and just laying down as much machine gun fire as I could to help them break contact to get away.

And, um, once we were, we were get them in safe position, load them up and start working our exfil plan, we were, we were able to get out of there without anybody really getting hurt.

Uh, so I imagine that, you know, you're kind of off to the races at this point. You're that, that generation of guys that you probably deployed like every 6 months going forward for the next, you know, 8 years or whatever it was.

Yeah.

Um, what, what was the next, uh, rotation for you?

Uh, we went to Balad, I think, for the next 2 rotations, if I remember correctly. So it was Ramadi, then 2 back-to-back Balads. Uh, so I was with B Co. and Ramadi and then Charlie Company, uh, for the Balad rotations.

I was only in Balad once, so I have very little experience Um, but there was a, what, what was the big, like super JOC that was down there?

Yeah, I don't remember the name of it, but yeah, that's where the main, the main JOC was, was there in Balad.

Uh, and what were you guys doing there? I mean, was it more, uh, time-sensitive target strikes?

Yeah, it was a combination. We, we got a decent amount of air assets, so we would, would, uh, it was a combination. We, I'd say 50/50 between using strikers and using their assets, you know. Obviously, if we were, uh, we're— when we're strikers, things are a little more slow going, you know. Obviously, when you get that helo, you can get out to the X or do an offset. And so we stayed pretty busy doing that. Um, or yeah, so it was— I'm sorry, I went to blood and then it was bio. Yeah, sorry. Okay. And we, we didn't get into a whole lot. I mean, we got in a decent amount of, of uh, ticks that rotation. Um, that's actually, if I remember correctly, that's the rotation that we lost Jimmy Regan on, uh, from Charlie Company. And, uh, that was a— that was really, I, I'd say, my first where I was like right there in the middle of it when it happened, that I really, you know, had lost somebody for the first time. And, uh, we— I honestly, we didn't really know what was going on. We had, uh, we were, we were driving down the road and, uh, in Strykers, we had an IED Um, we knew that there was— so basically what happened, the explosion happened and it kind of breached the, the back tailgate, and Regan had taken some shrapnel basically like up underneath of his body armor, and he was having labored breathing, all that stuff.

Doc Melvin was taking care of him. They got them all packaged up. We set up HLZ, first came and got him, they evaced him, and then we just continued on to target because we were on our way to target. We did the whole mission, came back. still nobody knew what was going on. We're coming back. And then we came back and I think, I want to say, uh, uh, Merritt was there, you know, as a battalion CSM. He was there at Balad and he had like had everybody in formation. When we pulled back in the gates, we're like, well, I guess we know what happened. You know, we came back in and, and we lost Regan.

That's terrible.

Yeah. And then, you know, from there it's like, you know, the next day or so everybody just kind of Working through that and then just getting back on target.

I was going to ask, was it tough for the platoon to kind of maintain their focus in the aftermath?

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause Jimmy, he was the team leader at the time and he was loved by all the guys and they were all super close, you know? I mean, you know how tight-knit it is inside the platoons and I, like, I knew him, but I didn't know him the way they did, obviously. And so they were, they were pretty beat up about it for sure. They were struggling.

And how did you kind of see that evolve throughout the, the rest of the remainder of that deployment?

Uh, for the most part, you know, it's like you kind of just put your nose back to the grindstone and you don't— you know, we do everything, we don't ever do anything mental health related, you know, how to, how to deal with stuff properly. Just shove it down and deal with it later when you come home. And, and you don't still deal with it then, it just comes out in the wrong time when everybody's you know, 3 quarters of the way through a bottle of Jameson and then it all just falls apart then, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, you know, we'll have to circle back around on that one. Um, but, uh, then the next one was, uh, BIOP.

BIOP, yeah. And that was a pretty interesting rotation because at that deployment we had split the strike force, was half SEALs, half Rangers. And when we got there, uh, for that rotation, we had basically spent I want to say like a week, maybe almost 2 weeks, where we were just doing static operations, just doing rehearsals nonstop, um, just trying to get everybody on the same sheet of music because we didn't, we didn't have an opportunity to do that prior to the rotation until we got on the ground. Um, so just working through TTPs and, uh, the way we kind of mitigated stuff is they would do isolation, we would do assault, and we would flip-flop on the next target. So we didn't have You know, guys running through buildings at the same time.

Yep.

And, uh, and there was some, man, a lot of egos getting in the way, obviously. And then, you know, we had like one of the, one of the unit guys came down as LNO to kind of bridge the gap and, and try to help with that situation. And, you know, just a lot of, I don't know, like, because, because it wasn't SEAL Team 6 guys, it was like their vanilla SEALs, or I don't know what a term we want to use for the regular SEALs. And, uh, there's a lot of guys who have been in SEALs for a really long time, but, you know, one of the guys was, uh, you know, he— one of the, the main team leads, he's like, I've been a SEAL for 13 years, it's my first deployment.

Wow.

You're like, okay. And you're like, well, we got privates over at 5 deployments.

Was the conflict, um, like on the leadership side or on like the enlisted side?

Um, I think more, more on the enlisted side, and it's just more, you know, it's— you always got to get past the egos. Is it Rangers or is it SEALs? Who's better? Who's not? And it's at the end of the day, it's just like, hey man, we got a job to do. We just need to get out there and do it and put all the BS aside. And, you know, it takes it— after the first week or so, I think we were running pretty smooth.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, things are going well and we're going on target and we're have any issues. And like I say, I think flip-flopping isolation assault is really what helped us out there. So we got into some, we got into some pretty bad, some bad ticks. We got in a really bad one one night when we were in, we were in Sadr City. And at that time we had to, we had to take 2 tanks and 2 Bradleys just to go into Sadr City because the EFP threat was so bad that they just were there to EDFPs. And so we would, we would forward stage in the green zone, pick up the Bradley and tank escorts to move to target. And we got into the green zone and we were waiting for escorts and they got in there. And then, you know, like we were having, one of them were having transmission issues and they couldn't take off, you know, cause you have to have 2 tanks because one's got to recover the other if something happens. And same thing with the Bradleys. We sat there and we're just burning hours and hours and hours, and we were getting ready to come up on daylight.

And finally we just took off. We're like, we're rolling without the tanks. And we got out and then like, I don't know, 10 minutes of that movement, one of the Bradleys went down. So then we were down with the Bradleys. Like, all right, man, see you guys, we gotta go. And, and we were, we kind of burned the target on the way in and we just started, we started taking gunfire before, before we ever got to the target building. And so we were in pretty pretty heavy gunfire the whole way out there. And like I said, we were at that time working half the strike force with SEALs, half the other half of the Rangers. And, uh, we got into some pretty— you know, in Sadr City, it's just like any major city. There's like really tall buildings everywhere. It's, it's very chaotic. Um, and it's just really difficult to figure out where everything's coming from. You have— what guys were doing is they were— had, had kind of weapons stashed on top of all these buildings. And they would run up there, they'd grab weapons, start shooting from the top of the buildings, and they would just go across street, walk with no guns, and then go to the next building, run up to the top.

So you're, you're not shooting an unarmed civilian as they're crossing from building to building, you know, and kind of playing that game. And, uh, yeah, I don't, I mean, we were just, we were in heavy gunfire for a really long time and we were, we were at all of like my RWS got completely shot up. All the placards on the vehicles were shot off. Like we were just in it the whole time.

Oh man.

Yeah, and like you could see, uh, you could see friendly helos coming in, like ADAPs would come in to try to support us, and then you see just like tracer fire just tracing it through the sky. And it's, you know, so they were—

Peeling off, yeah.

In the daytime at that point, not at night like what we should have been, but we got stuck in the green zone waiting for, uh, the vehicles to get fixed. They never did, and so we ended up hitting, hitting the target around daybreak or a little bit after. And so we were just in the middle of the day fighting, uh, in Sadr City, which is like worst case scenario. And going back and looking at the ISR footage after the fact, it just looks like the entire city just erupted on us. And, uh, we ended up getting what we were going for, the target, got what we were supposed to get there. And then we exfilled and made it out of there without anyone getting shot or hurt, which is a godsend in itself.

Yeah.

Um, but we, we were, I don't think that's just a testament to like regiment and the adaptability and being able to, to, to, to come together and work teams that quickly and, and, uh, learn, share TTPs, all that stuff, and then just keep going. Because we actually got a really good tight working relationship, you know. It's just like anything. By the end of the deployment, yeah. Yeah, you get past everyone's egos. Like, this skit's hands down best skits I've ever seen in my whole career for that rotation. And it was just like Ranger privates making fun of SEALs. SEALs making fun of Rangers. That was awesome.

I'm surprised they let you guys do them. I know the commanders got weary of platoon skits as the deployments ground on.

Oh yeah.

That was great.

The guys go and made a bunch of big fake mustaches and put them on and they run around like guns flagging each other in the face, pretending to be SEALs. And, you know, the guys were like pretending like, oh, I'm gonna shoot the slide out. Like, Go through like 5 magazines just trying to shoot one light and throw rocks. We're like, we can't get it to go. I don't know what to do now. Yeah. Just like, uh, let Ranger privates be privates and do cool things that they do.

I, and as you know, the, these deployments are going on, are you noticing any difference in how the, the, um, conflict in Iraq is evolving?

Oh yeah, for sure. I definitely realized that, you know, like for all the, you know, the years that I was there and then I'm busy, you know, it's like, I want to say from probably '05 to about 2009 or so, it was all Iraq heavy, you know, and then it shifted and then everybody was getting after it in Afghanistan because, you know, it used to be just one company would deploy to Afghanistan.

Yeah.

They'd sit in Bagram and plan a mission for 2 months and that they would never go on. And, you know, everybody's just like hitting the gym, comes back £40 heavier. Super jacked, like, oh, you guys just came back from Afghanistan. Um, you know, and then, then it shifted to Afghanistan, and then it was crazy in Afghanistan from like, I don't know, like '09 to '11 or so. And then it started shifting back to Iraq, and then we closed Iraq out. And so I feel the years that we were in Iraq uh, over there, because I had the majority of my deployments I did in Iraq. I did a couple Afghanistan rotations towards the back end when things kind of shifted over that way, or we're getting heavier in Afghanistan. Um, but Iraq was, was awesome because we were just going out constantly and going after targets constantly, and we got so good at doing, you know, time-sensitive targets. And, you know, the— just the ability and the trust that, like, squad leaders had And, you know, like the whole ground force commander concept, you know, we were doing things in regiment with lieutenants and captains that, you know, they were doing with battalion commanders in the regular Army.

And it's just because the trust was there and we had so many repetitions doing it. We had so much, you know, going into 2007, 2008, guys are, you know, they're already like 10, 11 deployments in, you know. They've got a wealth of knowledge and we never lose anything. The other part of that is like, as we're rotating battalions. If I'm in 375, 175's forward, I'm a platoon taking this, going to the same outstation. I'm in my office on the red line talking to the platoon sergeant who's on the ground there. I know everything that's happening. I'm reading their CONOPS. We have access to their portal. We can see everything that's happening. So there's no loss in fidelity, and you're able to keep track of everything that's going on and try to stay on top of everything that's happening at the same time so that it's a smooth transition. Usually you'll send your weapon squad leaders forward to go do an inventory and everything, and then you're high-fiving on the ramp. You're leaving, they're coming in, you go load up on ammo and you're going out on target. But you already know what's going on because your platoon has been in communication with the platoon that's there for the whole last month leading up.

So you're tracking everything that's happening, you're looking at the CONOPS, you know everything that's, that's going on. So that's another thing that, you know, regiment has over the, you know, for quote unquote the regular Army. Um, Because, you know, if I'm in the 173rd and you're in the 101st and I'm backfilling you, it's this whole big thing to change over and equipment and vehicles. And we're just falling on forward equipment and we're talking to the people every day that we're going to swap out with. So we just have a lot more insight to what's happening.

Yeah. I mean, I remember that they knew well ahead of time where every single platoon in the battalion was going and preparing for that specific mission.

Yeah, for sure. Like I say, like, if you're, you're the, the platoon in 175 that I'm, I'm relieving, I'm on the phone with you and we're talking on a daily basis. We're on communicator chatting. I'm looking at your CONOPS. We know what's happening. So there's really no loss of information there.

Uh, and then what came after, uh, BIOP?

Um, I think I ended up going back to Balad again, and then want to say. Then we kind of started shifting towards Afghanistan, and I did it, you know, I did a, a few rotations in Afghanistan, did, uh, Bagram, I did Bastion. Bastion was— that was, uh, that was one of the, the crappier rotations just because the sustainability wasn't necessarily there. We didn't really have a QRF. Um, Kandahar was kind of where, where, uh, all the magic was happening. They were kind of the main effort for that rotation, which is weird because I was with Charlie Company. I was with 3 Charlie in Bastion, and 1 and 2 Charlie were in Kandahar, and they were kind of the main effort. So I had my platoon split, you know, I had all the 60 teams out, but I had, you know, my 2 big gun sections. So I had one with my platoon leader in Kandahar and the other one with me in Bastion. And my guys in Kandahar were getting after it, man. They were just doing Squirter Addiction and Isolation and climbing teams and doing all that stuff. stuff. And we were all just kind of sitting around and bashing.

We couldn't really launch because we didn't have a QRF. And I actually got into it pretty bad with, uh, the first sergeant on the ground there, um, because he wanted me to bring my whole platoon to just be QRF for that rotation. And I was like, I'm not doing that. He's like, yeah, you are. You work for me. I'm like, I don't work for you. I work for the tank commander. And he didn't like that.

I'm sure he loved hearing that.

Yeah. Oh, Craig Bishop, count on him. But yeah, so we had, uh, yes, we got, we got into it, and it was just like a professional thing. Like, at the end of the day, I get what you're trying to do. You're trying to get your, your guys out on target. Right, right. But I also have to look out for my guys too. If I spend an entire rotation of guys down here just doing QRF, we're all going to get out of the Army when we get back, you know? And so I've got, I've got to look out for their well-being, but also I still have a mission, you know? Like, it wouldn't be the first time that we would be forward deployed and something happens, you know? We still have platoons in Iraq. something happens in Iraq and I got to send a big gun section on a C-130 to go to Iraq to react to something there, I have to be prepared to do that. And I can't do that if I'm stuck doing QRF for a company. And, uh, so we got into it and, you know, I had— I was like, well, if you really feel this strongly about it, you know, we can do a VTC with the boss.

And my PO was in Kandahar and we got in, uh, had a VTC with the battalion commander and I laid out the reasons why I didn't think it was a good idea and he laid out the reasons why he thought it was a good idea. And he sided with us. He's like, yeah, that's dumb. I'll just send another one of the Charlie Company platoons down there if we're going to do that. And, you know, that went over about like you would expect it.

Like a wet balloon.

Yeah. He didn't like that at all. And like I said, I wasn't, it wasn't like an ego thing. I was just genuinely like, hey man, we have a mission the same as you guys do. And I'm just doing my part. So it is what it is.

When you started doing these Afghan rotations, were the mortar section able to kind of get after it and do their, you know, mortar, uh, job a little bit more often than they were before?

Yeah, for sure. And we were always trying to find more ways to get the mortars onto target because a lot, you know, a lot of times it just comes down to like carrying, you know, you can always, you move easily with 60s, but with 81s and 120s, it's a whole nother animal. We're trying to figure out ways. So we're outfitting the ATVs with 120s and trying to figure out how to get them out, you know, And, but, you know, because you can, you can get a, get a, uh, 2 or 3, uh, ATVs and set a 120 up on them and ammunition and put them on the back of a 47 and roll out that way. We were using the, uh, the fast rope descenders, the Fred's devices, you know, that the K-9 use. And we were taking 81 systems and putting them inside of Skedcos and using Fred's devices so we could fast rope with the 81s. trying to figure out a way to get in those, and that was working well. And always just trying to find new unique ways to try to get to target with the system so we can support in the way we do, you know.

But it always comes down to like weight, who can carry it.

Sure.

How you're getting it there, you know, because without trucks, it's, it's, it's, it's pretty tough to get the big guns out with, you know, the equipment, all the ammunition requirement. You know, with 60s, that's fine, you know, you can hand carry 60s. you know, the platoons, every— you can get everybody around, they consolidate the rounds to you, you know, all that stuff. But it's a lot different when you're dealing with the big guns.

I was going to ask, were you guys ever able to slam some targets with the 120s?

Yeah, for sure. There was a few times that we got, uh, got into stuff with the 120s out in Afghanistan. Um, and man, we just— I, I would say we were really, really proficient just because we did a a lot, a lot of, uh, we did like a lot of— I'd say just our platoon would shoot like what a regular— we'd do in one training, like one training event, what like a brigade's ammo allocation would be for like an entire cycle, you know. We would completely shoot the guns. That was a lot of problems why I have so many TBIs, you know what I mean.

Yeah.

But we had You know, because there's— I think they've got it figured out now. And I, I know this happened kind of after my time, but back then we didn't, you know, like the BOP for a CRAWL-G, you're only supposed to shoot what, like 8 rounds a day or something like that?

Yeah, we never followed that.

Yeah, well, like, you know, I shot like 500 120 rounds in a day. Yeah, you know what I mean? And you talk about like, I mean, bleeding out of your nose and your ears and trying to put sentences together at the end of the day, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, doing those Jaded Thunders and all that stuff, you know, because we support all of JSOC. And that's the other part of it, is we have to be ready to go support anyone at all times, you know. And the mortar platoons are— really got leveraged a lot during my time and after to go and support the Tier 1 organizations with that stuff. We got spun up more than once, you know, when I was there to, to go, uh, to go do stuff. Like, we ended up going doing underways with SEAL Team 6 guys and, you know, planning for, for missions to go out and do things with them. And that was another thing that, you know, we did, we kind of had to figure out on the fly. I got, I got, we had just finished doing, uh, platoon live fires. I got a phone call from my first sergeant. I hadn't slept, you know, Jim Anderson calls me and I hadn't slept in 3 days because I've been out supporting platoon live fires. And I'm like almost home. And I'm like, he's like, I need you to come back to work. I'm like, and I'm, I barely made it home.

Like, I don't know if I'm going to make it back to work. He's like, you got to come in. I was like, all right, man, I'm going to stop and I'm going to slam a Monster. And if when I get to work, we're gonna have a real conversation, like, man, you're gonna have to go fight in the courtyard, you know? And so I get out there and, and I get back to work and he's like, hey, he tells me like, hey, I need you to get 2 teams together. There's gonna be some guys flying in here tomorrow to pick you up and you're gonna get right onto what you're doing when you get there. I'm like, okay. So then I do that, you know, start calling guys. I'm like, hey man, just meet me at the closest place you can. I don't expect you to come into work and I'll just kind of give you a heads up. So you can go take care of your family, get your stuff together, and we're bugging out of here tomorrow. And, you know, we, we get our stuff packed up, you know, come home, tell my wife like, hey, I'm leaving.

I'll let you know. I don't know when I'm gonna call you. I don't know, you know, the usual. Like, I'll be in touch. I don't know when, but I'll figure out what I'm doing when I'm getting there, and I still won't be able to tell you what's going on. So it's just the usual. And so we got some team guys flying to our, uh, to, uh, the airfield there on Fort Benning, pick us up. We fly out to Dam Neck, and then when we get there, then we get read on to what we're doing. And then we start trying to figure out, like, okay, so we got to figure out how to, how to, how to swim in with mortar systems. And so we're gonna have to do a beach assault, you know, bending in with these guys. And the plan was we're taking H-SACs, they're big cigar boats, to a certain distance out. Then we're getting into Zodiacs and we're taking that to a certain distance out. Then we're about to— click or so off, then we're finning the rest of the way in. And, um, like, okay, so I started going down, just take me to your warehouse and let me see what I can get my hands on.

And so like, I got— okay, we can— they had dive bags we could put the tubes in, so that worked. Um, and I was like, uh, I'm like, how— what are you guys doing for your body armor? They're like, we're not taking body armor. I'm like, weird, what can I do to put my body armor in? So they give us bags and I got a bunch of Alice packs from them. We cut all the pouches off, camp dried the crap out of them, waterproofed them, then put dive bags. We took our body armor, put inside the dive bags, and you could zip them up and you can, you know, you can let air in or out to make them buoyant. So basically the idea is your body armor goes inside your rucksack, you can fin behind it, it gives you ballistic cover to the front. They have the dive bags with— you can put your guns in, you can shoot through, so we can patrol. with ballistic covers to the front with the dive bags and fin in that way. And then as soon as we hit the beach, then we can pull out, throw your kit on, put your helmet on, and, you know, start moving.

And you're like, that's going to take too much time. I'm like, look, man, if we can't keep up, then we can have this conversation. We're not going anywhere without body armor. That's just how it's going to be. And, uh, like, okay, whatever. And then, you know, we go out in the water and they try to— they try to drown us for like a week. And that was the other part is I had no idea what we were what we were doing until— because we didn't get read on until we got there, and, and, uh, they told us what was going on. I was like, well, this is some information would have been known. Like, I don't know what it takes to be a strong swimmer in SEAL Team 6, but I can tell you what it takes to be a strong swimmer at Third Ranger Battalion. You gotta swim across this pool like 50 meters and you're good, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

I have a feeling the, the swimming, uh, is a little higher level here, so I think so. I end up having to bench a guy because, like, you know, again He was a strong swimmer for the Army, but not for the Navy.

You know, I was going to ask, was this part of the contingency planning for the hostages down in Colombia? Is that what this was about?

Uh, this is actually in Africa. We were planning for targets in Somalia and, uh, we ended up doing all the trainup for it, but not actually executing because that's kind of around the time that the Captain Phillips stuff kicked off. And that's when they kind of redirected to going after all the pirates offshore. But we were planning on really going into Somalia and hitting a target. And so that's what everything we were training up for. And we've spent, you know, a week out there and they're just out in the pool trying to drown us every day. And we managed to get through that. Then we started doing underways with them. And, you know, it was middle of winter and we're out in Virginia Beach in dry suits and HVACs and doing all this stuff. And just going out and doing training missions every day. We ended up capsizing some boats and doing all that good fun stuff. And we actually had a pretty good training rotation with those guys. Spent— it was actually the only time that when I was in 375 that they went to NTC. It was while I was at Virginia Beach.

And so we, we definitely got over on that. The guys were out at NTC and I was like hanging out at Virginia Beach eating tuna steak every night, you know. But, uh, we, we did our train-up. I want to say we were there for about roughly about a month and then it transitioned battalions. The QRF mission at the 175, and Charlie Harp was the mortar platoon sergeant at 175 at the time. So I just gave him my package, everything that I had built and what we were doing, and I gave it to them and they picked up the mission and just kind of ran with it from there. But we were able to, we, we were able to kind of circling back to the whole, the original conversation is how adaptable everybody is.

Yeah.

You know, we were able to go and incorporate and just, you know, hit the ground running and figure out like, how do we make this mission work? Like, okay, so now we got to get, you know, get rucksacks and cut the pockets off of them and streamline them and make them waterproof and get a dive bag to put our body armor in and, you know, get, you know, bags to put the mortar systems in and be able to patrol in and out and do those. Uh, and the whole time we're keeping up with all these other guys and they're just out there, you know, basically with, with their weapons and fins just— and we're dragging all this other stuff. We're still able to keep up with them in the water, you know.

That's wild to me that You were swimming in with the 120s.

No, we were 60s. We had—

Oh, it was the 60s. I was going to say, I thought you said 120s earlier. I was like, that's definitely pretty crazy. Still with this, still with the 60s. I mean, the tube, the base plate, the bipod, all the rounds for it. I mean, that's a lot of weight.

Yeah.

And so that's the other part of it is we had to figure out a way to get that stuff into bags with body armor and everything to get it out there. So everybody had a rucksack. kind of maxed out with everything that we could carry.

Wow.

And so it was good, man. It was a, it was a great, great training event. I would just call it that because we ended up, you know, not going out and executing the mission, but it was a really great cross-training event. We got to do underways with the guys for, you know, basically a month, and, um, we had a lot of really cool experiences. And, uh, you know, it was like the one of the guys You know, one of the guys who was like my swim buddy was like, he'd been on the teams, I don't know, for like 20 years.

Old salty, you know, like I, we were on, we were on the boat and, uh, I think I need to switch this microphone. I think it's about to die.

Uh, it may have switched automatically actually.

Yeah. Okay.

I was just still picking up.

Okay.

I just wanted to make sure. Yeah, we can, we can hear you.

Okay. Yeah.

So we, uh, you know, he was, he was an old salty guy and we, you know, it's funny. I was, you know, busting chops cuz we get, we get back to the team rooms after training all day because we, we went head-on to a wave and capsized a Zodiac. And I'm, you know, I'm talking trash. I'm like, you guys are supposed to be the most elite SEALs in the Navy. I don't know a lot, but I know you go head-on to a— head-on into a wave with a Zodiac, it's going to flip.

So we're trash-talking, going back and forth, and had a good time.

Uh, I, you know, I've always had good experience with, with the guys when we've worked them in the past, and I always keep that going forward, I feel like.

And then you did a bagroom rotation. Was that pretty much just a training rotation or did you guys actually get shot out a bit?

Yeah, it was. We didn't really do much of anything. We just trained and trained and trained. And that's kind of like where we worked out all those TTPs with the 120s. We were just trying to find stuff to keep us busy. And so we were outfitting them with, you know, taking the ATVs and setting them up to 120s and working with the FRED devices and tower training them and getting them on birds and trying to fast rope with them. So like in the event that we do get out, you know, we're going out and hitting a ridgeline somewhere, like we can take some big guns with us out there to do the mortar support. You know, it ended up not launching or doing anything, but that's where we were able to work a lot of that stuff out.

And During this time, you worked your way up to mortar platoon sergeant?

Yeah, I was a squad leader and platoon sergeant in the mortar platoon there.

Tell us about that.

What's that?

Can you tell us about that kind of stepping up? And I mean, that's a big promotion for an NCO.

Yeah, for me, it was awesome. I loved being a squad leader, section leader, whatever term you want to use, but I I really enjoyed it. I really, I like the flexibility of just being able to work with all the companies because I really did. I got to deploy with every, you know, I deployed with Alpha Company, with Charlie Company, with Bravo Company. You know, there's different personalities in all those different companies. And, but I really, it gave me a bigger picture of everything that was going on because, you know, when you're in a platoon, you just kind of see what's happening. You don't necessarily even see what's happening in your company. You really just see what's happening in your platoon. So it gave me the ability to see all that stuff. And, um, Chris Castevoy was my platoon sergeant at the time. And, uh, when he, he left, he ended up actually going to the unit and retiring from there. Um, but when he was getting, getting ready to leave, you know, I was, I was the senior— I was, uh, I was this, the senior guy in the platoon, uh, left there to take over.

And, um, there was, there was a few times where I ended up taken over the platoon kind of inadvertently, like, you know, Cask got mono one time.

Yeah, yeah, acting, acting platoon sergeant.

Yeah, like I came to work one day and, and, uh, he had ended up— he got sick out at the range and like I thought he was gonna die. I'm like, dude, you need to like see a medic. We were just doing live fires out there and he just looked like he was dying and turned out he had mono. And so like we were in the middle of a live fire, he left and he couldn't come back to work for like a month because He had mono and it's contagious and all that stuff. So I immediately took over and ran the platoon for a month. And so I kind of got that under my belt beforehand to kind of, I don't know, it's a little nerve-wracking. There's a lot more to—

OJT.

Yeah. Well, there's a lot more to being a mortar platoon sergeant than there is to being a regular platoon sergeant because you're managing 12 60 teams that are going to 12 different outstations. You got 2 big gun sections you have worry about. You have ammo allocations in all these places. You got 15 outstations you're worrying about, like what everybody has, what they need. I'm also running CSAR teams and doing all this other stuff. And so I feel like it's more akin to being a first sergeant or even a CSM than it was to being a platoon sergeant, because I just have so many people in so many different places doing so many different things. And so it was a little nerve-wracking, but Luckily for me, like I will say, like Jim Anderson, I learned so much from him as he was my first sergeant at the time. And he was really like, when it came to administrative stuff, he was wired tight, man. I learned a lot from him being able to track and manage and do a lot of that stuff thanks to him. But yeah, I was excited. I really wanted to take over the platoon.

And when I got the opportunity, I definitely jumped at it. And I think that I always tried to leave things better than the way I found them. And Cass did a great job, but I just felt like I needed to carry the ball and do something different. So when I took over the platoon, that's kind of like when we started really incorporating the other stuff, and we were getting into the squadron interdiction and the isolation and trying to find different ways to get the mortar systems on target and going and working with the other Tier 1 units. And that wasn't because I set that up, obviously. happened to be the right place at the right time when we got spun up to go do that stuff. And we were always really successful. And I feel like the platoons, it just kept getting better even after I left, when I went over to assessment selection. And then when Sandusky was on here, he talked about a lot of that stuff on your podcast, the stuff they were doing in Syria. And at the end of the day, the line platoons were running log pack for the mortar platoon, and the mortar platoon was just after it with Tier 1 guys.

Yeah.

I think it's hilarious looking at it from this vantage point now because it's like everyone always wants to talk trash about the mortars, but they were the ones out there getting after it.

Yeah. Will, you'll like the interview we did just prior to yours with Eduardo, who's a 275 mortar guy in Syria. Tells a lot of those stories. It's pretty cool. Yeah.

And like I say, I love that, man. It made me so happy to hear all that. I'm just glad someone kept the ball moving forward after we left. You know, it's always about innovation and how can, how can you best support the team? How can you best support the commander? You know, because—

You mentioned that, uh, earlier you told me that, uh, Mike Edwards came and took, took over after you left. Yeah, I think he continued that track too, from what I recall.

Yeah, that's great because we were trying to figure out, because the, the next obstacle was like, how do we get guys to freefall. And I don't know that he did, but Mike Edwards, he was a freefall guy, tandem, did all that stuff. And so he was definitely the perfect guy to try to figure out that package. Because when you start thinking about how are we going to incorporate these guys with the Tier 1 units if they're doing a hey-ho to get a target, how are you going to get guys with mortars on a hey-ho if you don't have anybody? Yeah.

It's the same issue you had working with the SEALs. Like, how do we get mortars to a SEAL target.

Yeah, for sure. And so I, you know, I was really happy to hear that people were carrying the ball forward and continued to innovate.

And so the next stop for you is a RASP instructor.

Yeah, I took over as the RASP 1 NCOIC, um, right after the transition from, uh, RIP to RASP. Uh, Tyson Crosby was, was running, uh, was running RIP and, and the transition to RASP, and I took over shortly after him. And that was a really great job, but also probably the hardest job I've ever had.

Really?

Just because as the NCOIC, I'm just always there. Like with the cadre, I've got Phase 1 cadre and Phase 2 cadre. Phase 1 is all the small unit tactics, weapon systems, land navigation, all that stuff. And then we get to Phase 2, we got marksmanship, mobility, breaching. And so like when you're in Phase 1 and you're in cycle, you're working your butt off constantly. And when that hands over to Phase 2, then you're off, you're taking it easy, taking time off. Same thing Phase 2, when they're handing back off to the next class, there's a lot of time off. Whereas in NCOIC, I'm just always there. I think the 2 years while I worked there, the only time I really got off was Christmas because we got Christmas access. We put everybody out on Christmas. Texas for the rest of time. I'm just there always. And, you know, that's the RCO's number one stateside priority is RASP because he needs people, you know. And it was really awesome working there when Merritt was the RSM. It was really terrible when Bilick was the RSM, you know, when I was, you know, because Bilick was my first sergeant.

He was my— yeah, he was our first sergeant. Yeah. You know, it's like, I can't get away from this guy, you know.

175, everybody's like, finally.

And then he came to be the RSM, we're like, no, he's back, you know.

But he came down, he would fire me constantly. Like, he would come out there in front of the whole formation and nuke me and like, I'm fired, guys, I'll see y'all later. And I'll come back 2 hours later like, okay, I'm hired back, then everybody else do the job. So I'm here again, you know. And, you know, because that's just how Bealek rolls. But it was, it was really, it was a really great experience. I really enjoyed it. Just the— my biggest, my biggest obstacle there was probably trying to, trying to change the culture. Because we were, again, kind of coming from RIP and going into RASP, and guys were used to— I don't want to say it, but, you know, at the end of the day, there was just a lot of hazing going on. And at the end of the day, if, if you could survive 3 weeks of getting hazed, then you could graduate. And when we were going to RASP, like, we're trying to make this like an assessment and selection that will really give us what we need. We're trying to get guys better trained. It's not just about can you do hard things, but can you do it the right way?

More.

And getting it more into advanced marksmanship. And we want to get a guy so when he shows up to your squad in the line battalion, you can deploy with him and you can go forward. Obviously, he's going to have to incorporate in the team, but at least he knows how to to at least handle his weapon, you know, collect— because at the end of the day, in basic training, you don't really learn anything.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, going through marksmanship at RAS, they really learn how to shoot, you know. They're actually learning how to zero their optics during the day, during night, how to shoot with lasers, how to, you know, move it in teams and doing all that stuff. And we did a lot of really good— you know, our ammo allocation for RAS 1 class was 100,000 rounds of 5.56 and 50,000 rounds of 9mm for 2 weeks of shooting. And so we put a lot of rounds downrange for those guys. And same thing with the breaching course, all assault breaching, we did all of it, mechanical, explosive, everything that you would do or saw on target outside of master breacher doing wall shots and that kind of stuff. But all your assault breaching, they got a really good grasp on it. Same thing with mobility. They can drive Humvees, they get licensed, they know how to learn how to brake modulate, how to recover vehicles, do all all that stuff before they ever get to the battalions. And so we were putting a lot of effort and emphasis into making— you want guys to be strong and hard and do all that stuff, but you also want them to be able to make decisions at the right time, be able to do things the right way, be safe when you're handling the weapons, when you're handling explosives, all that stuff.

Like I say, we work all that out while they're at the course. So like I say, I think we went 3 years before we RFS'd the first RASP-1 graduate.

Oh, really?

That's just like everything that we were doing, because we weed those guys out while they're in the course. The battalion CSMs didn't necessarily like it because they just want bodies. My biggest problem there is I was a Sergeant First Class promotable, just getting screamed at every day by battalion CSMs, by the RSM. I have a company commander and first sergeant, and I have my own battalion CSOM. You guys could talk about— nope, they're coming straight to me and just nuking me every chance they get, you know, especially come down for the RASP boards, you know, because it rotates through the battalion, change of commands, come for the RASP boards, and they always make sure to swing by my office, let me know how they feel about me and what I'm doing right or wrong every chance they get, you know. And, uh, so it was hard, but it was, it was also well worth it. I mean, I had really good chain of command too, but—

I was gonna ask, what was your biggest leadership challenge running that Big machine.

The biggest thing there was just trying to make sure that the cadre got what they need, because it's also, part of it is making sure guys get what they need as they're coming in and when they're leaving. And the amount of cadre that I had coming to me that had been in battalion for 7 to 10 years that never received a PCS award, didn't get an NCOER, never got a plaque, never received anything from their battalions. I'm like, man, we are really missing the mark here. And I fought through that as a platoon sergeant in Lion Battalion as well. We never put guys in for service awards. You can be in the same company from private to first sergeant and never PCS, but everyone else in the Army is getting a PCS award every 2 to 3 years. We don't think Rangers need that. It's not important, right? You can still do service awards for those guys every 3 years, but people just aren't doing it, just taking the time to take care of their people. And so I get a staff sergeant or a sergeant first class coming in who's been in battalion for 7 to 10 years.

He's never gotten a service award. He's never gotten— didn't get an NCOER. I'm like, you haven't gotten an NCOER in 2 years? What's going on? So that kind of stuff. So I started working, we started doing dog exes and stuff like that at Cole Range just to try to generate some funds. And I made sure guys left, they had a really good plaque. They got a good PCS award, you know. If they never got one before, they got one from me when they left. And, you know, the plaques we were getting made were really good, you know. I was getting them made at Stanley's Framing, but when I took them to like Benning Awards and asked them like, what would you charge for me to make this plaque for like $1,200? I'm like, okay, well, Stanley's making them for $250. It just takes them 6 months to get them done, you know. But he was an old 375 guy too. So he took care of us, but I made sure that they, they got what they needed. But we also use like, you can buy boots with them. We'd take care of the cadre and make sure that they're getting that family, you know, because the other part of that is that's your break.

You're getting a break from the line by going to work at cadre. But it doesn't matter if you're working 16-hour days, 6 days a week for 2 years, you know, like, thanks for the break.

You hear that from the Special Forces guys that get assigned to SWCC. And they'll pretty much all of them will tell you, like, I have less time at home here than I did when I was on an ODA. I think that kind of like gets lost. A lot of people don't realize how difficult it is to work one of those training jobs, whether it's RASP or being a drill sergeant or, you know, Q course guy or whatever it is.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's tough to manage, man. And it's because you, at the end of the day, you still have to produce, you still have to get everything done, but you just have to be smart about how you rotate people in and out, make sure people are getting taken care of. Because the other part of that is, you know, this might be the first time these guys have been around their wives every day for 8 years, you know. And so, you know, that has its own things you have to navigate there, you know. Like, it's, it's, you know, you guys have kind of been dating a lot over the years, but you haven't really been home, you know.

Right, like we're married for the first time.

Yeah.

And so then you start having, you know, kind of family issues that we're not used to dealing with. Because you're never home. And so, like, you're always kind of making up and breaking up, you know, in between rotations. And so being home every day brings its own challenges. And then, you know, guys start getting into the alcohol and start having issues there. And, you know, it's the same problems that I've had in my, you know, I was going through it too, you know. But it's definitely a unique problem set that you don't really think about. And I don't know, man, I've always kind of had imposter syndrome in every Every stage of my life, everything I'm going through, you know, I never, I never felt like I really belonged. I was just like, I felt blessed to be around giants that I never really felt like I fit in, you know. And part of that was maybe because I was an import and whatever. But it's hard to feel like you belong to an organization when it's never okay to leave until you're told to leave, you know. And so like, if you want to go to another selection or you want to do something different, it's It's like you, you can, you can stay until you're RFS or you get told you have to go find a job.

But if you try to do anything outside of that, it's difficult.

Yeah. I also noticed too, like just how transient it all seems, um, because the, the personnel rotate so quickly in Ranger Battalion that you can be in a platoon and it's like, oh, a band of brothers and all this, everything's great. And, you know, I want to stay here forever. But in reality, 2 years down the road, that platoon is almost unrecognizable because the personnel have changed over.

Well, the other unique pressure cooker of the Ranger Regiment is it's the only organization in all special operations where you have to go back through assessment and selection every single time you take a new duty position. So if you go from private to sergeant major, you can maybe go through assessment selection 4 times, and it doesn't matter how good you are, Because at the end of the day, when it comes to your board performance, it's the personalities in the room. Because everybody looks the same on paper, you know, everybody looks exactly the same. And at the end of the day, it comes down to the personalities in the room and your board performance. And it doesn't matter, like, what you've done for the last 10 years and how good you are and how amazing you are. If you have a bad board performance, then it's all for nothing, you know. And that brings its own special pressure cooker and You know, I can speak to my— personally, when I, when I made the 8 list, there was— it was, uh, as I was leaving 375, finishing my platoon sergeant time, going to RASP, I, I made the list.

There was, I want to say, like 86 guys that were competing for, you know, 16 companies. And this is over like 2 or 3 lists, but I'm saying there was that many promotable Sergeant First Classes assigned regiment, you know, and be like, okay, well, we only got— there's only 16 companies, so what are we going to do with 86 guys? And it puts a whole nother pressure cooker to like, you know, you have to be better than everyone. You have to, you know, people start being cutthroat and start doing things, you know. So it's like its own level of, you know, there's only so many platoons, there's only so many companies, there's only so many battalions, you know. And it's, uh, yeah. brings its own level of stress to an organization that's already a pressure cooker as it is.

And you— and I mean, it ended up working out for you, right? You were a first sergeant at a WORST company.

Yeah. And so it was good for me. And so after I finished my time as an NCOIC, you know, I talked to all the battalion CSMs and there were no companies opening up for at least 2 years. And I had already been a promotable sergeant first class for like 22 months and I was getting ready to pin E-8. And I was like, dude, I cannot, I can't plan platoon live fires and airfield seizures for another 2 years and just try to survive and then get a company, you know? And so I just started shopping around. I talked to the RSM, I talked to the PSY and CSM. I was like, hey, I'm gonna look for a job. Are we good? And they're like, yeah, you're okay. You can look. And so I think Sean Curry was the branch manager at the time. So I called him and, and, uh, the LERS company was available and it's actually My PO when I was a platoon sergeant in 375 was the company commander for that LRRS company.

Oh, wow.

And he was ready to leave and he's like, yeah, they're looking for somebody. And I was like, awesome. And so he put me in touch with the battalion CSM and Colonel Cogbill was the battalion commander. The way the LRRS company works then is you were in Arista Squadron, which is a Cav squadron under an MI brigade that fell under the Corps headquarters, just kind of the whole intel piece. There. So we were under MI brigades initially before we went directly to HHBN Corps. But so Colonel Cogbill was the RS-8 when he left, and he was the squadron commander for there. So, and the brigade commander for the MI brigade was an old regiment guy too. I think he was a company commander. I can't remember. But anyways, my point being that— I had a— they were very interested in bringing me out there. And so I had the ability to go take there. And I was like, man, this is awesome. So I can go take the LERS company. And so I went out there and as soon as I got to the LERS company, you know, Colonel Cogbill was like, all right, let me get you to freefall school.

I was like, awesome. So I finally— I was like, I reenlisted for this regiment twice. I finally left and now I get to go to freefall school and freefall JM, you know? Outside in the Army. So I got to go to—

That's pretty cool as a very senior E-7 or—

Yeah.

Yeah, it was funny when I was going through the basic course as a first sergeant and then same thing going through the freefall JM courses. They're like, well, you've been sending a first sergeant out here? I'm like, yeah, man, I'm for a LERS company. I'm just happy to be here trying to build a program.

So yeah, tell us a little bit about, was this the RISTA company at Bragg? Like where were you guys at?

I was at Fort Hood. So the first companies were at Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and I can't remember where the other one, but we got— oh, at, uh, in Washington. And so it was a 3-corps headquarters where they're all at. And, um, so we were in contact with the other companies just trying to figure stuff out. And that was a whole nother animal that I had to try to tackle and figure out. And when I talked to the battalion CSM, he's like, as soon as he found out I was coming, he's like, there's these There was an E-8 running the company who was terrible. He's like, I'm walking across the street and I'm firing this guy right now, and I'm putting one of the platoon sergeants in charge of the company because you're inbound. I was like, okay. And so he went and fired the guy. I showed up, there was, uh, one of the platoon sergeants running the company, and my handover consisted of— I got an alpha roster with names on it and Social Security numbers. And so I basically had to build everything from the ground up. And, um, there's a lot of— when you really start digging into mission set and the middle tasks and everything that has to be done with the LRS company, it's pretty overwhelming.

You have got just the insertion and extraction platforms alone requires a ton of training. You've got to think about mountaineering, you have to think about waterborne stuff, you have to think about static line and freefall operations. And so the way we had 3 platoons at the time and the best way we were able to get after it is I just kind of set up like one detachment was the air detachment, one was mountaineering, and the other was water. And you guys will be the SMEs at everything. And then inside of each detachment, there was like basically 3 teams. And then, you know, you have an air team, a mountaineering team, and a waterborne team. And they just, based off the mission set, do what they need to do with the platoons kind of managing the SME for each of those. And, you know, because just managing your freefall program in itself, is a lot more difficult than most people realize if you haven't been a part of that, you know, and know what it needs to be like a true pro-level one train-up and what it takes. And then once you're— even once you go through a train-up, you're only good for 6 months, and you're really only good for like 4 months where you really start trying to have— you go amber and start trying to do another jump trip and do all that stuff to do a full mission profile.

Hey ho, it really takes a lot to get there, especially as you're still trying to figure out— we were just trying to figure out how to get guys at school. You know, like, I can't even talk to you about a full mission profile. I only have people who can jump out of airplanes yet, you know? And so we built that whole program and started getting guys into freefall school. And then I made friends with the, the guy who managed all, all the freefall billets for all the guys in the pipeline because, you know, USASOC was kind of doing freefall for all at the time and a lot of guys were getting hurt on the way in and like one week out. They would just drop off. And so I got in contact. I was like, look, I've got 15 people ready to send any day. I was like, so I could contact him a week out and he's like, all right, I got 3 slots.

You good? Yep.

And I would send like 2 to 3 people every single class because they were just people that were falling out of the pipeline that couldn't make it and started sending those and started getting some jams. And then we were actually start actually getting some jump trips in and start getting guys ready to where we could actually do like, you know, full mission profile HAHO jumps. And then at the same time, we're also managing people, get guys to as many like small boat courses and anything we could do, any mountaineering courses we could get guys to, and just trying to figure out how to get after all the insertion and extraction platforms. And then you have to go through all the communication stuff, you know, which was great because we had an entire platoon full of communicators, which was amazing. And my platoon sergeant, he was like a super salty like staff sergeant, but he was like the USASOC commander's RTO. So he knew all the systems inside and out. And he was really smart on everything communications. I mean, he was the kind of guy that could just MacGyver stuff. You're like, all right, man, I got this radio, a pack of cigarettes, and a battery.

And he's like, all right, we'll get up here in a minute. You know, he'd have Netflix playing somehow. You're like, I don't know what you did, but it's amazing. And he did really a lot of good stuff and really helped the platoons how to train them up on all the communication platforms. You also have a mobility detachment. So I actually have 88 mics in the company for large truck movements. And then I have my own rigger detachment, which was amazing.

Wow.

My own rigger detachment. And we were the only unit on Fort Hood that was jumping, obviously, because it's a mechanized installation. And so it was awesome. I had my own rigger shed and my own riggers, so riggers could make pouches for us, do all the stuff that you want a rigger to do when you're not jumping. But they are also like, all they had to do was support our company. There was not like they're getting pulled for, like the riggers are dealing with a battalion worth of dudes.

Right, right, right.

They're only dealing with one company, like 130 people.

And so it was great.

Really were able to get a lot of cool stuff done. We did, we actually deployed, we deployed too, but we did like, I deployed to Kosovo for like a peacekeeping operation for just under a year. But what we did get to do while we were there was training. Like we got to go out and do our LRS mission like we were, like we would do overseas. But if you get compromised, it's like by a dude on a bicycle, there's not like worried about somebody actually getting shot up. I was like, we're going to Kosovo? There's still— I didn't even know we were still in Kosovo, to be honest, because, you know, everything that had been happening in Kosovo had been over for like 15 years.

Yeah.

And so it was great. We got to go over there and we would do everything like we would do, like we're going to do a real-world LRS mission and briefing up to 2-star with an Italian 2-star general. And so we would do the MDMP process and everything like we were going to do an actual mission and just brief all the way up to 2-star level and then just go do it. But if you get compromised, you don't have to worry about anybody getting taken.

Okay, cool. So you used it as a training event essentially?

For sure. And we came back better trained from that rotation than ever before because that's all we had to do was focus on training all day, every day.

And so for folks listening to this who don't know, LRS is Long Range Reconnaissance and Surveillance. Were these operations you guys were training for, were they sort of like the traditional 6 to 8 man WORST team digging out hide sites and keeping overwatch on targets and that sort of thing?

Yep.

And we would just go out, set up, you know, set up on the borders and stuff and just send intel back and, you know, doing, you know, working on guys' abilities to take pictures and send that back through a Toughbook through the radio and get imagery back, real-world, you know, like ground assets providing, you know, pictures and videos and things like that, just working through all that stuff. Because, you know, there's a whole lot of technical stuff that you have to be good at with the communication side on that and field expedient antennas and how you're carrying it and placing it and, you know, work through all the logistics of trying to keep guys out there for a certain amount of time. Because, you know, in the, in the real-world mission, you're supposed to be like 50 to 100 Ks in front of the FLOT. for a real true LRS mission, you know, which I don't think anybody would ever buy the risk on. That's why the LRS companies always go down, because really the only way to really get guys out on that is to do a hey-ho.

Yeah.

Because partisan link-up, no one's ever going to buy off on that. And the only ones doing those kind of hey-ho missions are going to be with the Tier 1 units, you know. So I appreciate that I got to hold that position and train up for it, but I also in the back of my mind knew that we would never actually launch out on the real world side of it.

I, and then your next, you got promoted to Sergeant Major and that was that the next assignment, uh, Airborne School?

Yeah, I did 3 years as a 1st Sergeant, then I went to Airborne School and, uh, I was filling the billet because the, the Ops Sergeant Major position at Airborne School is actually an E-8 position. It's just like a public order sergeant job. And I, I made the Honestly, I didn't want to go to the Sergeant Major's Academy. And I don't know if you know Roy Young, but he was the battalion CSM, and me and him were really good friends. But he spent the majority— he grew up in— he was in ACO 375 as well, but he'd probably gone to ROC by the time he got there. He spent the majority of his career at ROC, and he left ROC after being the first sergeant there and took the OPS Sergeant major at STB, but he was the battalion CSM when I got there, and he's the one who talked me into going to Sergeant Major's Academy. Because I had— you had—

when—

I don't know how it works now, but when I was getting looked at, you had to actually opt in to go, to be eligible to go to the academy, and I just denied it every year. And he talked me into doing it. And so I put my packet in, I got selected, and I went to USASMA from there. But I worked as the ops sergeant major for a little bit, and then I took over as the master trainer for Jumpmaster and Pathfinder Branch and was just kind of going TDY with those guys and helping fill the billets all throughout the services for all those jobs. And then I took the— I went to the USASMA from there, did Sergeant Major Academy, and then ended up going to the 101st being ops sergeant major. But my time at Airborne School was actually really good. You know, I got through with a lot of cool stuff. The downside of it was, you know, to be an instructor at Jumpmaster and Pathfinder, you have to go back through the course and then you have to get 80% or better on everything. And I don't know the last time you got GMPI'd on the clock like you were going through as a student, but, you know, I had been a Jumpmaster for 10 years and it was a humbling experience to go back again, you know.

And then you have to learn all the classes and be able to, like, you know, be able to give JMPI procedures verbatim. You have to teach drop zones and do all that stuff. And so I really had to buckle down and get re-blued on all that stuff, learn it, and then really have to go out and kind of as the NCOIC there, you have to— we also validate everyone else's courses from that school because USASOC has a Jumpmaster course and we have to go out and validate their courses. It's the other pathfinder the ground schools and stuff like that. We'd have to go out there and make sure they were doing things right. And so I spent a lot of my time doing that kind of stuff before I went out to the academy.

You know, on that note, you know, the Army, just like the Army mistakenly shuts down worse elements and then stands them back up, the Army stood down the Pathfinder course out there at Benning. Do you think that was a good idea or a bad idea? Was something lost in doing that?

I definitely do. I feel like the Pathfinder course was really good. I mean, there's so much learned there. I don't, you know, I've done some real-world sling loads. Um, and the training that I got at Pathfinder course is what really like set me up for success for that. Because they teach a sling load, a sling load course, I think at the Rigger Schoolhouse. And it's not anywhere near as in-depth. Same thing as Air Assault School. I had the luxury of going to Air Assault School as a 40-year-old Sergeant Major because I went to the 101st, and that was a complete waste of my time. But, you know, I was going through the course just trying to do the right thing, you know. But my point being is that, like, you learn how to do sling loads in Air Assault School, but you don't really learn how to do sling loads. You know, you learn how to build a bundle, but you don't really understand the— to the level that you really need to.

Yeah. Did you guys do bundle drops in Pathfinder also?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I thought so. Yeah, like DZ operations and all that stuff.

Yep.

And so like, it— man, it's— there's a lot of information. And, you know, I think a big problem with why they want to get rid of Pathfinder schools, because honestly the graduation rate's not great, but it's because it's a really tough course. You know, it's not physical, physically tough. You go out and do some stuff, but it's mental, you know, like drop zones for Pathfinder is hard. You get into a lot of like really complicated math and get into the weeds on some stuff. I was like, man, I don't know if I'm ready for like calculus and trigonometry and all this stuff we're getting into for, you know, I had to— I work, you know, we were all burning the midnight oil, you know, uh, staying up till 2 in the morning studying, doing flashcards.

I had no—

I took no time off when I was there, you know.

So you, uh, go to the Sergeant Major Academy and get assigned to 101st. Uh, what was that job?

That was good. I was in 3rd Brigade. Uh, the battalion I was in, it was 1-187. Um, and I was the ops sergeant major there. So I, I took that job and, um, it was good. I mean, I enjoyed it. I had a really good relationship with the, with the battalion commander, was, was really great. We got along great. The 2 field grades for the S3 and the battalion XO, we all had a, you know, the whole top 5 battalion CSM. We all, we all got along great and it was a good job, but it was my first time ever being on staff. And to be honest, I completely hated it, you know, being inside of an office with no windows, staring at a computer screen all day, just dreaming about what it was like to go out and train again, you know, and just managing military, you know, borrowed military manpower and taskings and, you know, uh, all the stuff that nobody wants to do. And but I had a lot— like I said, I had a really good chain of command. My commander was really leaning on me for like trying to build a marksmanship program for him.

And, you know, just because my background, the stuff I had done and, uh, trying, trying to make things better. And everything was going really good up until COVID happened. And that was about I don't know, about a year after I had been in position and COVID happened, and then everything changed. All the deployments, training cycle, everything came off the table. And it's like COVID's the new enemy and we're fighting that. And we were turning the post into an NBC environment, setting up decontamination stations and worried about stuff that we didn't need to be worried about that had absolutely nothing to do with Army. And the other side of it is I just was like, you know, I got, you know, I'm getting the military, the BMM tracker for borrowed military manpower, and I'm pulling the first sergeant in. I'm like, hey man, do you know that you've had a guy that's been out on the gate for 2 and a half years and he's ETSing and he's never done anything but work on the gate? I'm like, it's rhetorical. I know that you don't know that that person is in your company, but that's what we're doing here is we're going to sit down and talk about this because we have people that have joined the Army to be an infantryman, and they came to Fort Campbell and they checked ID cards for 2 and a half years and they got out of the Army.

And that's how— that's our calling card from, you know, that's how we're getting people back in the Army. And, you know, it's like all that kind of stuff. It just— I don't know, I— it broke me to the point where I just didn't want to— like, it took— just like sucked the life out of me. I just was not—

It was like being so, feeling so far removed from the men, I guess, after everything you did.

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, it was funny when we finally got to go do some platoon line fires. I was like, sweet, at least I can go out there and walk the lane and set the talk up and do that kind of stuff. And, you know, you get a little, a little glimpse of like what it used to be like. And then you're back in the office stuck to the computer all day.

And it just was, I don't know, not for me for sure.

And then, you know, you guys get schwacked with COVID which kind of upsets and ruins everything that you guys had planned. Tell us about the lead-up to retirement as you are getting towards your 20 now.

Yeah, for sure. So, basically, COVID happened and I was having a lot of issues with— I had 7 surgeries, 2 bone grafts from a motorcycle accident I got into. And, I was having issues with my nerves. And so, I went to get a nerve study done and the doc was telling me that He's like, hey, I want to initiate a med board on you. He's like, if you keep doing what you're doing right now, a year from now, you might lose the use of your hand. And I was like, well, I've never been more miserable than I am in my entire life than I am right now. And there's nothing to look forward to. So I was at 21 years. I'm like, let's do it. MEB, let's go. And I went back and I told the boss, I'm like, hey, just heads up, they're initiating MEB. I'm not fighting it. Like, I don't— I was just not happy. I was in a terrible place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mental health was in the trash. I was drinking every day. Like, I was completely miserable. I felt like I had nothing to look forward to. The stuff that I was going through— like, I would go to the brigade S3 shop and there was a, there was a dude in there who was transitioning to a female that was like 6'4, 280, looked like Lou Ferrigno with a boob job.

And it was like, this is not the Army that I joined. He's running around telling everybody, you got to call me ma'am. I'm like, there's no amount of plastic surgery known to man that will ever make you look like a woman. I'm sorry. Just because you're crazy doesn't mean that I am, and I can't work in this kind of environment. And I was just like ready to be done. And so when he initiated the med board on me, I just, I was like, let's go. You know, my wife got a little nervous, you know, as to be expected, like, Because the other side of it is going through an MEP as a Sergeant Major. Like, you know, going— they put privates, they'll drag it out over 18 months. Like, I was like out of the Army in 90 days from the time they initiated the—

Wow.

Which I, you know, I was fine with. I'm like, let's get it over with. I'm ready to get out of here, you know. So I just went hardcore. As soon as, as soon as I found out I was going to go to the MEP, I went straight to the TBI clinic and, uh, uh, and had— and did the full workup there because they have the Intrepid Center there because 5th groups there. And, uh, so I went to the Intrepid Center, and that was awesome. That's really what helped me out the most, probably, on the back end, as I went to the Intrepid Center, and they do like an intake with you where they have doctors from every specialty. You know, they'll have like 8 different doctors in there, and they bring your wife in there for the intake because they know you're going to ask questions you're not going to be honest, but they know she will be. And so they ask her the hard questions that they're not going to get the right answer from you, like, what's going on? How are you sleeping? Are you sleeping? You know, headaches, all stuff that you're going to lie about, she's there to keep it straight.

And they really helped me out a lot because I had basically nothing documented in my records, anything from TBIs, from any of this stuff, you know, because you know how it is overseas and you get knocked out, something happens. Like, we didn't even have digital records back then. Sometimes it makes it in your record, sometimes it doesn't. But at the end of the day, you don't want it to be because you just want to keep doing your job.

Yeah, yeah.

So I basically— they helped me get everything documented and, uh, to get everything set up. And it's really what helped me on the VA side when I went to do my VA physical. You know, I had no issues. I got straight through, you know, got 100%, no problems. And the guy actually doing my— actually worked out because the guy who did my physical was, he was an old 275 medic from like the '80s that became a PA and got out and all that stuff. But the Intrepid Center was great. They did everything they thought they could do They, you know, they try to do art therapy and all that stuff, and that really, really worked. But most of what I got out of it was I got an AlphaStim machine because I, you know, I got set up with the Care Coalition through USASOC while I was there. And my Care Coalition rep, actually, I was using an AlphaStim machine at the TBI clinic, and that was the only thing that was helping my migraines because they gave me all kinds of migraine medication.

How does that machine work?

So it's, it's, it's got, uh, it's got leads that go— that clip onto your ears, and it also has probes that you can use. And it clips onto your ears and it uses, uh, different, uh, wave functions that come through, and it, it works with different frequencies. And it will— if, if I had a— if I felt a migraine coming on or something coming on, if I put it on initially, it would completely neutralize it if I caught it beforehand. But also help you sleep, help you calm down, relax, a lot of the same stuff. And, it just works the frequencies that it's basically running through your head, through your earlobes. And, it was awesome. It was the only thing that was working because all the medication they were giving, you're only supposed to take the medication once a week, twice a week, something like that. But, I was having like every single day.

And, the migraines are related to the traumatic brain injuries?

Yeah. Yeah.

And I didn't, you know, I didn't realize how many I was having until they made me like keep a log. And you think you're like, oh, I'll have a couple a week, and you're like a couple, maybe 3 or 4 a day. And then you're like, you know, because it's all the same stuff, you know, like you're drinking all the time and you're also dehydrated. And is it the migraine or is it the alcohol? Is it the, you know, like it's, you know, your system's so jacked up, you know, you've also been a human pincushion your whole life and you've had, you know, like how many, you know, got smallpox and Uh, what's the— what's the one with all the boosters?

Uh, anthrax.

Yeah, like 5 or 6 anthrax boosters. I don't know, like all that stuff definitely played, played a key role on it. I had dysentery a couple times, you know, had dysentery in Iraq and Africa. Uh, my system was all jacked up, and that combined with the TBIs and all the other stuff, I was just trying to find a way to— like, like, I couldn't— I could not get to sleep at all without either taking meds Or drinking. It was the only way. Even if I only got a few hours of sleep, it was better than no hours of sleep. And so like, they helped me with the Alpha Stim machine, and I couldn't get one through the Army channel. So I talked to my USASOC rep, and he was actually got— uh, Care Coalition paid for one and got me for it.

That's awesome.

And the TBI clinic, like I said, they really do— they do a— they try to help, but there's a lot of stuff that they just, you know, there's only so much medicine can can do for you until you really take the holistic approach, which is more kind of like after retirement. That's where I really started figuring that stuff out. So after I retired, then I started going and seeing a functional medicine doctor. And, um, when I started seeing a functional medicine doctor and getting all my blood work done and getting, you know, I got like my, like my testosterone level had been down in the 200s to 300s for over a decade. And, uh, you know, a lot of it was from the TBIs had jacked my whole system up. And, uh, the doctor— I was like, I will literally do anything, y'all try anything, just help me feel better, you know? And she's like, yeah. She's like, I have a plan. She put me on all these crazy diets. I did everything she asked me to do for a year and still couldn't get my testosterone levels up above like 230, 240. And then she's like, you're a good candidate for TRT.

So then she put me on TRT just to get me into the normal ranges, like 500, 600, like normalcy.

Yeah.

And then also got all my vitamins and minerals tests done and got all my vitamins and minerals where they needed to be, got my hormones in And then I was like, after about a month, I was like, oh man, I'm sleeping, I'm feeling better, like all these things, you know, because your hormones affect your sleep, your immune system, your, you know, your sensitivity.

When your testosterone is off, it throws off everything else. It's weird.

And there's just so many things that, like, you know, the Army won't have any, they won't touch it, the VA won't touch it, you know. So it's like, you just have to figure this stuff out on your their own, you know. And so I started seeing a functional medicine doctor, and she helped me start figuring all that out. But that only helped part of it, you know. That helped, that helped me to get my systems running and doing what it said, but it didn't help what was going on between my ears, you know. And so like, I started, uh, I just, I was spiraling hard, honestly. Like, I had been, I'd been drinking a lot, and I— that happened all the, all the whole back end of my career after I left regiment, you know. It's like, it's easy when you're in regiment Because, you know, you're, you're home where you can actually be home and do stuff like a couple months a year. You know, you have block leave on the front and back end, but even in the training cycle, you're gone, you're doing stuff all the time. So if you're burning it down for a couple months out of the year, it's not a big deal.

You know, like you're— but, you know, when you stop deploying and then you're home every day, and then, you know, like weekends and nights turns into daytimes and 40 weekends, and then before you know it, you're cracking a beer at lunch and then before you know it, it's breakfast, and then you're just drinking all the time. And that's exactly what happened to me. And after I retired and got away from it, uh, I was just drinking every single day, and it was happening earlier and earlier. And I went over, uh— well, you're in Cypress, you know Pete Faccini?

Yes.

So like Pete, uh, I bought a, a house in Pete's neighborhood, and I was over at Pete's hanging out, and, um, we were hanging out over there, and, uh, I ran into a Ranger buddy of mine that was visiting, and he asked me how I was doing. And not like really how I was doing, not like the just trying to be nice how I was doing. I was like, I'm doing terrible, man. Like, I'm having suicidal ideations. I'm drinking every single day. I feel terrible. Like, I don't— I will do literally anything to feel better, and I just don't know how to shake that. You know, I tried to shake alcohol. My wife had given me an ultimatum more than once. And like, I'm like, look, I, I had to sit down with her and I was like, look, I don't— I'm not drinking because I want to be drunk. I'm like, I just want to sleep. I'll do anything just to get a couple hours. Even if it's 3 hours, it's better than no hours. And I'm like, I don't know another way to sleep outside of taking sleep meds every day. And Ambien's not any better than alcohol, you know?

And so I, I saw— I was talking to him and he's like, dude, He's like, you need to go do— we need to get you down to do plant medicine. And I was like, well, what's plant medicine? And he's like, he's like, uh, well, you know, you gotta— you know, he tried to start breaking it down to me. And I was like, well, let me stop you right there because, you know, my wife's been a nurse, you know, for 20 years and she's gonna have a lot more questions that I'm not going to be answering. I was like, will you be willing to come over the house and talk to Lindsay for a couple hours? He's like, yeah. So we went back to the house and he gave her the whole spiel on everything with the plant medicine.

stuff.

He put me in contact with a guy named Dr. Polanco who was a neurologist who'd been working with just soft guys for the last 15 years using ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT to help with TBIs and PTSD. And, I talked to him on the phone and kind of told him everything that I was going through and he's like, you're a perfect candidate. So, I'll put you in touch with Special Operations Care Fund. They're the nonprofit that'll pay for your trip. The SOC-F, the Special Operations Care Fund rep got a hold of me. They basically just sent me a check. I deposited that check in my account and then I just paid Dr. Polanco's organization's— The Mission Within is the name of the nonprofit that they used. And then within a couple of weeks, I was down in Mexico. It was me and 5 other guys, and there was, uh, 2 unit guys who were 175 guys before that, and I think 3 SEALs and me. And it was the same for all of us. We're sitting— we, we get there, we fly into, uh, to like— we fly into California, we get, uh, we get linked up, and then we drive across, uh, uh, close to Tijuana and go to the— go to the house.

You're inside of a— it's basically a big house inside of a gated community, and there's a retire— there's a retired, uh, SEAL Team 6 guy who like lives in the house and handles the security and does all that stuff. And you go in there and, uh, it's the same story. Everyone's just like angry all the time. No one can sleep. Everyone just wants to feel better. We're all losing our families. It's just like the same story. Um, we sit around, we kind of share a little bit about what we're going through. Not really what we're going through, but like all of our symptoms. Like, I can't sleep, I've got migraines, all this stuff. And And, um, when we got there, they set us up. They did a urinalysis. We did an EKG to make sure that we didn't have any heart issues, make sure we're not on anything that was going to interact with it, you know, because some guys are, you know, they're really struggling. Some dudes are on ketamine and cocaine and drugs and all kinds of stuff just trying to make it through the day.

Yeah.

And so the urinalysis is just to clear all that, make sure you're not on anything. Um, and the other thing was because ibogaine is a really strong stimulant, and if you have heart conditions or you're already on stimulants, it could be bad. And so, basically, it's part of a root of a tree that grows in Africa and the Bawiti tribe uses it. They use it for kind of— those people use it for becoming man ceremonies and to go to speak with their elders. And, we're just trying to figure out how to live our lives and that's what we're using it for. And then, they grind it up and put it in gel caps. You take the gel caps and— You know, the place that I went, we're hooked up, uh, you're hooked up to an EKG, you get an IV port, there's a neurologist and 2 nurses there. You're basically in a hospital bed inside of a house. And, uh, the, the doctor and the nurses are there with you all night if you need your bed changed, if you need fluids, you know, they're there to respond to everything. So it's really a clinical environment inside of a house.

And, uh, I took the, I took the plant medicine and I was You know, I was kind of freaking out, to be honest, because I was the last one that it really, it really, uh, started to work on. So like everyone starts just kind of, uh, going under and they're breathing heavy and going crazy. And 1 hour goes by and then 2 hours goes by and then 3 hours goes by. I'm like, oh man, I'm freaking out because like I took the same dose as everybody else, but I'm just like, I'm like, I could go drive a car right now. And I, I, you know, bring them back in, they're talking to me, and they ended up redosing me. And then within like 5 minutes, I was out.

Whoa.

And I was out with— for probably 18 hours I was under.

Holy shit.

Yeah.

And so like, I— the other part of it is like, I start hearing the next day people are getting up, moving around. I'm like, they redosed me. I'm never coming out of this, you know. I'm gonna be in it forever.

Which is just, you know, it's all part of being in—

it's all part of being in your own head. But, uh, part of the plant medicine is they say you get You get the experience that you need, not the one that you want. And for me, it takes you directly to the trauma that causes all the issues that you're dealing with. And for me, that took me directly back to my childhood. And I don't have any issues talking about this stuff because, you know, I wrote a book. It's actually in the process of getting edited right now. I'm going to be publishing it all, so everyone will be out there to hear about it. But for me, it took me straight to my childhood. And, you know, when I was a kid, my stepdad used to get drunk, high, Beat the brakes off me like every single day, and I remembered all that. But he was also molesting me, and I didn't remember any of that. And it was also getting my sister, and I didn't remember any. I blocked all that part out. So like no amount of therapy or anything ever would help me because I didn't know it happened. I had completely blocked it out of my head.

And for me, what I had to do is go back and re-experience it and make peace with it. And way the medicine works, it takes you directly to that point. Point, and you have to make peace with it. And if you don't, it just starts twisting you inside and out. You'll start throwing up, you'll start crapping your pants. You just— it will turn you inside out until you finally submit. And then like peace kind of just like washes over you and you feel safe and clean. The best way I can explain is it's like 30 years of therapy in one night with yourself, you know, because like you can, you can go to Any place, any, any taste, smell, thought, anything you've ever seen in your entire life, it's all in your brain. It's just whether you have access to it, but it's all there. Everything in utero, like, you can remember it. It's just whether your brain gives you access. Well, when you do plant medicine, it just removes the veil, and then you can go directly, like, go to any point in your life, and it's like watching a movie in 4K. And I had to go back to those things and re-experience it and You know, I, I hadn't cried in 30 years, and then I cried for like 24 hours straight, like deep body-shaking, soul-shaking, like release of just trauma just coming out and pouring out and pouring out.

And, you know, like, I— the other part of it is when you come out of it the next day, um, there's a therapist there, and she's also done the plant medicine, so she kind of helps you deal with the things that you're going through. And, you know, I told her what's going on with me, and she's like, you're probably not She's like, you may or may not like to hear this, but, you know, if it gives you any peace, 85% of the guys who come through this program all had the exact same experience as you, you know. And so when you realize that, like, you know, the majority of guys in special operations are just like hurt kids, you know, we learn how to compartmentalize stuff when we're in grade school. So watching your buddy die on target and going right back out the next night, it's way easier. And so That, I don't know, good or bad, but it did make me feel a little better. I wasn't alone going through that.

There's that documentary on Netflix about the SEALs going down there and doing this. And there's a guy they interview in the documentary and he was actually a Ranger, as I recall. And he says something during it. He says, without child abuse, there wouldn't be special operations. And that was a very shocking thing even for me to hear. But There's a very hard truth in that, I think.

Yeah, for sure. Because like I say, you learn to compartmentalize when you're in grade school. Yeah.

And the resiliency and yeah.

And so doing it as an adult just comes second nature. It's not a big deal. You know, I was compartmentalizing stuff just to show up to class, you know, in elementary school. So like doing it to go on target is like nature by then, you know. And so that, that's really what gave me my life back, that moment. And that was like January, uh, 2021, because I retired about 6 months before that, like July. And, uh, I, I went down to Mexico. I did that experience. Um, you know, it's, it's the same thing for all the guys. We all, we all went through it. And, you know, everybody shows up, they're angry, they got scowls on their face. And but by the time we leave, everybody's just hugging. I love you. I love you, man. It's so great. You know, you just feel like you get your life back in like one night, you know. Uh, so ibogaine makes you deal with the problems, and then the, the 5-MeO-DMT on the back end was kind of like a warm hug, you know. It's like the next— you go through the whole next day, you process, and then the next, the following next day, you do the ceremony for that.

And for me, it's just— I had to, I had to like experience— the first thing I saw was like my stepdad's face. And then like, it— I felt like complete terror and then nothing. And then warm. It felt like a— the best way I can explain it is felt like a warm hug from God that came across my entire body that made me just feel at peace and finally safe for the first time in my whole life. And I came away from that experience just a completely total changed person.

Wow.

And then I came back and, you know, my family You know, my wife's a godsend. She stuck with me through all of it. She— it's really what gave me my relationship back with God. You know, like, I grew up in the church, but I had a really bad experience because, you know, my dad and my grandfather were both ministers. But in my opinion, they were both false prophets and doing one thing behind the pulpit and doing another thing in real life. And so I had a lot of church hurt, and it really opened me back up to where I was able to reestablish that relationship. with God. And I really like just started reading the Bible on my own and really understanding it. And like, okay, so I just had a bad experience. It wasn't that, you know, because I, I cursed God a lot over the years going through all that stuff, all the things I went through. I was just like, you know, if there was a God, how could this stuff happen to me? And I got my life back, you know. It took me all that time and I finally got my life back.

And I get home and I was a completely different person overnight. The other thing with ibogaine is it takes away all your addictive qualities. So if you're addicted to drugs, if you're a heroin addict, you never want heroin again. If you're an alcoholic, you don't want alcohol. If sugar, all of it, you don't want any of it. As long as you come back and you do reintegration properly and you establish new habits, you know, like it— like for me personally, when I would start getting amped up, wife could see it and she'd be like, hey, calm down, just go sit in your room, put your headphones on. I put like spa music on and just relax, do some breathwork for a few minutes, and then I would be good to go. Where before, I would just be like, get amped up, like, time to go hit the bottle, you know, so I can calm back down. But you establish those new habits, and it's what really fixed me, you know. And then I, you know, it's been 6 years and I don't drink at all.

Wow.

I still don't crave alcohol. And it's, it's what, what really did— I went from drinking every single day to, you know, I haven't touched it really in 6 years, and I don't crave it.

I don't want it.

Like, um, but it really just helped me get my life back, helped me get my family back. My, you know, my boys were young, and, uh, really get to experience them because I was retired. And then, you know, went through all that. I got my relationship back to God, got into church, started getting my life back together. And then, um, at some point, me and my wife both decided we're going to sell everything, buy an RV, and just travel across the country. And that's what we did. And we sold everything and we just lived our best life. And we traveled across the country with our— it was me and my wife, my 2 sons, and our 2 dogs. We bought an RV and we just cruised and we went to, you know, all the national parks and all our bucket list places and spent every single moment with each other every single day, just being present, experiencing everything. I feel like all the time I had lost, I was making back, you know, from all the deployments. And all the time, and you know, all the time in my life I had just lost just from not being present, just being drunk or being passed out or you know causing problems at home.

I was trying to get all those moments back, and it gave me memories that I'll never forget. And then through that, we went on our RV trip for almost a year, and we ended up selling where we're at now. We're in you know just outside of. Huntsville and Summerville, Alabama. And, uh, we found this place. We're on an 8.5-acre little homestead here. We've got chickens and ducks and pigs and goats and, um, you know, just trying to live our best life here. But—

Hey man, you're, you're in Huntsville and you're a jiu-jitsu guy. Do you know, uh, Michael Case?

Michael Case? I don't.

He's a, he's a 375 guy.

Okay.

And I, I I'll have to talk to Mike, but I think he might be involved or even own a jiu-jitsu dojo out there.

Okay, right on. Yeah, for sure.

I'll pull up his info for you.

Yeah, no, please.

So, you mentioned that you have a book that's on the way. What's the title? Can people preorder it?

Yeah, it's called Refined by Fire. I've got the first 6 chapters back from from the editor. We're working through it. I just started establishing social media pages. I can send that to you. But once the book's through editing, we'll start pre-orders as we start the process. But it's called Refined by Fire, and it's really about my entire memoir from childhood through present day. I lost my 7-year-old son 8 months ago to cancer, and part of our— like, we settled back here in in Alabama. We started living, um, living our best life here. We, we found a great church. We started doing everything really— everything was going perfectly. And then, um, one day my son came to, to the breakfast table. And, you know, I trained both my boys in jiu-jitsu and everything. And the night before we were at training, he was kind of— he had rolled his ankle and was kind of dragging his foot around, but, uh, around the house. And And I was like, hey, what's going on? Is your foot— are you dragging it because you hurt it, you know, at jiu-jitsu, or is it just because, you know, you're having issues?

And he's like, oh no, it's fine. He went back to pretending to be a dinosaur or whatever. And then the next morning at breakfast, he reached for his glass with his right hand like he always does to take a drink out, and he put his hand down and switched to his other hand and searched around. I was like, that's weird. I was like, can you not grab your glass? He was having issues with it. So me and my wife took him out in the car. I just started doing like some mobility stuff with him. He couldn't keep his balance, his grip strength was off. He was definitely having some neurological something going on. And so we ended up— my wife took him to the ER, and then she called me. And, uh, they did like a what they call like a dirty MRI, just a quick one for a couple minutes, just to see if there's something going on, because he was presenting like he had a stroke basically. And, uh, they found a mass in his head. And then so they told us we needed to do a Sedated MRI. And we left for St.

Jude like the next day and did a sedated MRI and found out that he had a DIPG brainstem tumor, which is like a fast-growing, fast-acting brain tumor that there's no known cure for. And they gave us a prognosis of 9 to 12 months, and we got 6. And we did— and we went through everything with him to try to do things the right way. And Uh, we completely changed everything. We did everything holistically. We, you know, we went through radiation at St. Jude for 3 months, but, um, I, I did so many— as a family, we did so many things to try to, to try to, to help his health. We, we did, uh, we hired functional medicine practitioners that were helping us that way. Um, we did a lot of fundraising. Uh, I got, got with some donors that helped us. You know, I've got, I've got a hyperbaric chamber in my house. That we were using for his treatment. We were doing hydrogen therapy, PEMF mat. We were putting him on a strict keto diet. We were using cannabinoids. We were like deuterium-depleted water and chlorine dioxide solution. And it's like every, every, everything that we were doing independently can cure cancer on its own.

And we were doing like 8 or 9 things all combined together at once. And we brought him back to almost a complete and total full recovery. Um, and then he contracted RSV, and then he crashed, and within like a week or two we lost him. And then, uh—

What is RSV?

Uh, it's a—

what's RSV stand for?

It's the— it's a respiratory virus. Um, but it's a respiratory virus that he got, and he has a— he had a gene deletion in his body that didn't allow him to detox properly. So he wasn't able to detox it. And his, uh, basically he just kept— he would, uh, he would kept getting snotty and would end up getting phlegm, and he couldn't generate enough power to cough the phlegm up. And we were having to suction him, and, uh, he just, just kept crashing from there. Then he stopped eating, and then, you know, he wasn't getting calories in. He had already lost a lot of weight from all the treatments that he'd been through, and we had a really, really hard 6 months. Um, But he almost, like I say, he almost made a full complete recovery. And then we ended up for his 7th birthday, we took him and we took him down to Florida and had an awesome weekend on the beach with his brother. And we went to Alligator Alley because he loved reptiles and spent the day there. And we went and did a Komodo dragon experience at the Birmingham Zoo and had an awesome time there.

And his cousins and grandparents came up and we had That whole week of just the best week of his life. And then he crashed after that, and we lost him. And really, the book is about my whole experience from all of the things that I went through— childhood trauma and abandonment issues— and, you know, really about my walk with God from the time I was a kid till present day and how He was there with me the entire time. I didn't realize it. I had to walk through all that stuff to really find out. And honestly, I feel like my son, he was just like my own little guardian angel here. He was the one that really brought me back to God because he would— he asked me all the hard questions constantly. He, you know, he was 6 years old and prayed like a seasoned preacher. He asked me all the questions that I'd have to get into the end of scripture and really dig in and to get him the answers on. He would tell me when we were going to radiation, he had to go under Um, anesthesia every single day. So he, 5 days a week for 6 weeks, he was under anesthesia doing radiation.

And, uh, every time he would go under, he would tell us that he's like, he was good to go. He saw Jesus on the other end when he was under that, and he was fine. And, you know, it broke my heart hearing that because like, I'm glad you're seeing that, but at the same time, I'm not ready to let you go. And I do feel like as we get closer to the end, kind of the veil gets lifted. And we get to see more and know more. But, you know, he saved my life. He brought me back to God. And he is— I will never know this side of heaven the amount of people he has brought back to Christ. You know, like Ranger buddies that I have had phone conversations with and talked to about the Gospel. And I can remember when we were at St. Jude going through the worst of it, one of my Ranger buddies called me up and asked me, How it was going. And I told him, it's terrible, man. He's like— I was like, I wake up before everybody wakes up and I cry for hours, and then I deal with the day, and then once everybody goes to sleep, I'm crying again.

And like, I'm doing everything I can. I'm praying to God every day just to give me what I need just to get through today. And he's like, well, I don't know how you do it, man. I'd be gone. I'd be drunk, passed out in the ditch somewhere. And I was like, yeah, I would be too, man. If it wasn't for my faith, and, and that's what really keeps me going every single day. And he's like, well, I don't even believe in God, but I pray for your little boy every day. And I was like, well, you're halfway there. I can get you across the finish line. You know?

I'm sorry, man. I mean, that's, that's as bad as it gets. But it sounded like your son made his peace with it and understood what was happening.

Absolutely. Yeah, he did. And hey, You know, he— you know, there was multiple times through that process before we went to St. Jude, our church had a big thing together where they brought everybody into the church and we anointed them with oil and prayed over them. But Wyatt thought everybody was coming in so he could pray over them. And so he got up on stage and started praying over the congregation. And so like, he's just— that was just him, you know. He was always a firecracker. always, you know, he knew way more than, uh, he should have at his age. And I, and I genuinely believe it's just because, you know, like I say, as I think as you get closer, the veil gets lifted, and he just had more knowledge than I could ever attain in a lifetime.

Wow. And, uh, so you guys are still down in Huntsville, and now you are, uh, a jiu-jitsu instructor?

Yeah, so I, I, I coach jiu-jitsu, uh, pretty much full-time. I do it every day but, uh, Friday and Sunday at, uh, Gracie Baja in Huntsville. So I'm one of the, one of the main coaches up there and teach about, you know, about 15 classes a week plus, you know, my training days too. I'm up there 18 to 20 classes a week or so. And then when I'm not there, I'm here during the day. So that's usually most days I teach a couple during the day, but the majority of them are afternoon into night because that's, you know, most people are, you know, the kids' classes start around 3 o'clock and they go up through the evening with adult classes. Um, and so I teach then, and during the day I'm doing stuff here on the homestead. I'm homeschooling my other son Cole. Um, and so I do homeschool with him, and there's always, you know, like I say, we got a ton of projects. I spent all day today building a chicken coop, you know, for, for animals out here. So there's plenty to keep me busy around here.

That's great. And we will, uh, we'll put some links down in the description of this, uh, podcast for all the people who are listening and are interested in following up on, on that and, uh, interested in pre-ordering your book when it's available.

Yeah, that would be amazing. I appreciate that.

Will, thank you so much for sharing your story with us, um, from front to back. I mean, it's, it's amazing.

Thank you, and I really appreciate the opportunity, and I hope it The message I get across here more than anything is, you know, all of my experiences, I've— I'm just humbled to be, to be able to walk amongst giants for the times. I don't want anybody to think that I was in, you know, in here by any means trying to toot my own horn about anything, because I don't ever felt like, you know, like I said, imposter syndrome the whole time I was a Ranger. I never felt like I really belonged there. There's so many amazing men there. I was just really, really humbled and honored to be a part of the organization while I was there. I really hope that my story can help other people. There is, you know, because it is not just Rangers. It is not special operations guys.

Yeah. It is everybody.

We are all stressed to the max, like across the country, whether you are a doctor, a nurse, a high-level executive. We are all facing the same struggles. We all have imposter syndrome. We're all just trying to do our best to just make it through the day. And that's really why I wrote the book is just whether you're a veteran who can't sleep or you're a high-level executive just trying to make it through the day or you're an ER nurse coming off shift, there's always an answer. You don't have to take your own life. You don't have to drown yourself in booze. You don't have to turn to alcohol and drugs. You know, God's there. You just have to let Him into your life.

Thank you, Will. And please stay in touch. Anything before we get going?

That's it. I just want to really say I really appreciate the time. I really appreciate the opportunity. I really hope that everyone gets something out of this. And I really hope that once my book— my book should be available pretty soon. I'll send you the links to try to follow up there. And hope that I can help people with that. That's really my only goal is to try to share my son's story because, you know, his life was short but very large, and to try to share the Gospel with as many people as possible, and thank you so much for the opportunity.

Yeah, thank you, Will. Thank you for reaching out and doing this, and for everyone else out there, like I said, there'll be some links down in the description, and thank you for joining us tonight.

Awesome. Thanks, brother.

Hello everyone. If you're hearing this, uh, you are not a member of the Patreon. You can get your hands on ad-free episodes that come out early, and you can ask us questions, maybe we'll answer them. You can also watch the Team House Podcast completely ad-free and early, and you can also watch it live as we interview our guests. Um, And it's the best way to support the channel. So if you can, if you're open to it, you can go to patreon.com/theteamhouse. That link is in the description. Uh, we appreciate the supporters and we hope you would consider being one. So it's patreon.com/theteamhouse. Thanks, guys.