Transcript of #271 Ro Khanna - The Internal Failures Undermining America’s Institutions

Roe, Kana. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. You got quite the studio. I've done a lot of these. I haven't ever seen a studio with liquor, guns, from your time in Afghanistan, Iraq. It's worth coming here just to see the studio.

Well, thank you. If you get thirsty, we got plenty of booze here. I don't drink, but it looks pretty cool.

You got a great collection.

Thank you. But Man, this is so... Tried to get you and Thomas Massey on at the same time, but he couldn't make it. But I just want to say that what you guys are doing, trying to bring disclosure or transparency to the Epstein files and what the hell has been going on with all that. I mean, thank you for doing that.

Well, thank you for your voice because you've been talking about this early on, and it's why I wanted to come down here. It's the survivors. I mean, people don't get how bad this stuff was. Of course, Thomas has been a key partner. But you have over 1,200 women, many of them from working class backgrounds. A lot of them, by the way, didn't have a father. They were purposely targeted because they were vulnerable. Epstein creates a rape island where basically rich and powerful people go down there either to abuse or sexually exploit these young girls or to watch in parties as 13 and 14-year-olds are paraded around and they're drinking booze and laughing. Then you have people trafficked these girls, even when they were underage or 19, 20, being trafficked to other rich and powerful folks. They call the FBI. The FBI says, We're not going to do anything.

The FBI I said, What the fuck does the FBI do? What do they do? I'm sorry, I'm going to cut you off. I've been covering this topic for a long time. I started this with Ryan Montgomery about two years ago. I know you did. Then I brought on Tim Tebo. We're bringing on your buddy Schlep, who's going after Roblox. I know you're the first and only congressman to actually speak out against Roblox, at least according to Schlep's attorney. Yeah. I just interviewed Elizabeth Phillips. Are you familiar with this Camp Canicook? I'm not. It's the biggest Christian camp in the fucking world. I brought Elizabeth Phillips on, and she talks about how they've been molesting thousands of kids for years and putting them under NDA after a settlement so that they can never, as a kid, so that they can never come out and talk about their sexual abuse at fucking Camp Canicook. It's sick. Now we have... I mean, I fucking voted for this shit. I voted to get these damn files released, and it's like a total 180 just happened.

Well, I don't know if you had the President on or the vice President on your show, but they- Had both of them on. They campaigned on this. And so when Massey and I originally did the bill, we thought, okay, Trump should be for this because he campaigned. He said, look, we're going to release the files. Here's the truth of the matter. No one Cared about this issue since the 1990s. It's not like a Donald Trump thing. Biden, we didn't release the files under Biden. This thing was going on since the 2000s. In 1996, Maria launched a complaint with the FBI, and she was told, We're not going to do anything. By the way, you talk to some of the other survivors, they were told, Don't talk to the New York police. Epstein is too connected. For 30 years until some of the documents just came out because of Massey my Bill, Maria was called a liar by everyone in power and said, Oh, she never filed a complaint with the FBI. So when Trump said he wants to release the files, he was right. When he said that the system is corrupt, protecting rich and powerful people, He was right.

And we gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then Pam Bondi comes and says, Oh, there are no more files. I mean, come on. That's when Massey and I do this bill. And we initially thought maybe Trump would support it because his own attorney general is betraying his promise. And what has been disappointing is for the last five, six months, I've had to fight the administration at every step of the way, which gets me to believe, who is protecting these people?

I don't understand And I got really fucking pissed off at the Democrat Party because the maps, the minor attracted person shit before Trump came into office. We talked about it all the time. Now, why Why is the White House protecting pedophiles? Why is the White House protecting pedophiles? I just don't understand it, Ro. I can't fucking get it through my head why we would protect pedophiles. The other thing is this country has the biggest fucking problem with sex exploitation and sex trafficking in the world. We can talk about fucking Venezuela and Mexico and Ukraine and Russia and fucking China and waste, fraud, and abuse, and fucking Liberals this, and Democrats and Republicans. We have a pedophile problem. We have a fucking pedophile problem in this country, and nobody's doing anything about it in government except you and Thomas Massey. What the fuck is going on?

You know how I know this?

Is everybody in government a fucking pedophile now? What the fuck is happening?

I don't understand who they're trying to protect because I keep saying it's not about Trump. There's so many people, Democrats, Republicans who were involved in all of this just released the files. And they say, How do you know, Raul, that there are other men involved? First of all, just use your common sense. They're 1,200 plus survivors. You think one guy raped all of them? You think one guy abused all of them? Of course not. There was a system of powerful, rich men who either trafficked in these girls or abused them or showed up to Epstein's rape island. The survivors haven't told me the specific names, but what they have told me with their lawyers is the type of people who were involved. A Wall Street banker, a powerful politician. They said that they sat through interviews with the FBI. They're called 302 Statements, and they told the names on those 302 statements. So release the 302 statements. They're not doing that, even though the law explicitly calls for releasing those statements. We'll know who these powerful men are. Then there was a prosecution memo. Originally, there were 60 counts against Epstein, supposed to be in Florida.

They prosecuted him on two counts. There's a memo which explains why there should have been 60 counts, including ties with foreign countries, including ties with people who who are financing him, including allegations of a honeypot system where he was trying to entrap basically powerful men. And they're not releasing the memo, even though the law explicitly says, We want to know all the decisions of why he was charged or not charged. They're covering it up, and the people are asking, Why? Who are the powerful forces that have such influence that they're covering this up? Every citizen I talk to, hear, see, see on social, anything once those files were released.

Was it every single person in Congress that voted for it to release them? And was there every single person in the Senate except one person?

Everyone in the House except one.

Everyone in the House except.

And every senator. But I got to give credit not just to Massey's courage, because he's got billionaires funding against him, and the billionaires don't like me these days either. So you go after the Epstein class, you make a lot of enemies. Look at my ex, and you see the people who go after Massey and me. But it wasn't just Massey and me. Marjorie Taylor-Green, Lauren Bobert, and Nancy Mace stuck their neck out to sign a discharge petition that the two of us had to force a vote on it. They got bullied by the White House. They got bullied by the Speaker. They got threatened. Their political careers were threatened. Marjorie Taylor-Green lost her seat, gave up her seating Congress over this.

Yeah, didn't Didn't the President tell her... What did he tell her?

He told her that she's betraying him. Look, Marjorie Taylor-Green was for Donald Trump when he came down the escalator. She was with Donald Trump when he ran in 2020 and lost. She was with Donald Trump when he said the election was stolen. I told him, disagree with her, but she was out there defending him. She was with Donald Trump in 2024 when DeSantis and others were talking about running against him. No one had been more loyal to Donald Trump. When she joined the petition, she said, Bro, I'm going to explain to Trump that he actually can be a hero. He's going to come on board. I'm telling you, he's going to come on board. She said, Trump says to him, Well, you're hurting some of my friends. This is not the right thing. You're hurting people. How about hurting the survivors? How about hurting the women? Yeah.

How about the fucking kids?

It's girls.

Kids. Herding your friends gives a shit about your fucking friends. We give a fuck about kids.

That's it. These are working class girls. I wish people could see their stories and how they were exploited. It's a class issue. Rich, powerful people connected to politicians, figuring out, well, who's vulnerable? Who doesn't have a father? Who doesn't have a lot of money? How do we get that girl to start with giving us massages? You know what the saddest thing that I heard from a survivor? They were saying that the survivors are guilty because the survivors were actually recruiters of aiding and abetting other girls in getting raped or getting abused. So one of the survivors says, Yeah, I did that. You know why I did that? Because I was so afraid that I was going to be abused, that I went and I got other junior high girls and other high school girls to take my place because I didn't want to be abused.

Junior high girls. Junior high girls. Junior high girls. And we can't release the files. Before we move on, and we just both get pissed off outside of what we're doing, I We talked about Ryan Montgomery, Tim Tebo. I told you about Elizabeth Phillips, who I just interviewed. We're bringing on slip. It's such a problem in this country. I'm just curious, what can parents do right now? Not call their congressman, not call their senator. That shit's not working. What can people do right now on their own to protect their kids?

One, they need I don't know how widespread this is. You know how it's widespread? I realized this because since I've been affiliated with Epstein, I get stopped on an airport. People will say, Hey, congressman, can I tell you about what happened to me? I'm known people for 30 years. They said, You know, Ro, something happened. One person told me when I was 4 to 8 years old, my babysitter's boyfriend abused me, and I never told my mom or my dad, because my dad would have killed a guy and my mom would have totally lost it. So I've held this with me. And she said to me, Ro, it's like a box. You put it in a box and you put it away, but it comes back at any moment. And the amount of people who have faced this, I'm not saying all from Epstein, obviously, just faced this in this country is extraordinary and it's sickening. It's a national crisis. First thing we need to realize is we've got a moral crisis in this country. Second thing is when you're having your kids go to a sleepover, go to a sports team, go on a field trip, be paranoid.

I mean, I don't want to scare folks, but when you have them on a A gaming site, when you have them on the internet, they need to be paranoid. The parents need to understand that this is not something that happens in a remote part of the country. This could happen to your kids. But the main reason I want these Epstein files out is because it'll force a reckoning in this country. It'll be the biggest scandal, I fundamentally believe, in 100 years because it's going to expose how sick our elite culture is. Where for their own gratification, they think that they can just abuse these girls and nothing will happen. And that culture has permeated across the nation. They need to be shamed. They need to be held accountable. John, their building is named after some of these people. And these survivors go around and they're seeing these people celebrated in the financial world, in the political world, honored, and they've committed the most heinous act. It's like we may not agree on much. I think most Americans agree you don't rape American girls. That's the long you don't cross.

You don't rape any girls. None. But, Ro, let me give you an introduction here before we get started. Ro Khana, Representative for California 17th Congressional district in Silicon Valley. An advocate for progressive economic patriotism, reducing inequality in ethical tech governance. Most significantly, you had the courage to co-sponsor, along with Representative Massey, the bill to fully release the Epstein files to the public. And that's really why you're here. Husband of Ritu and father of two children. And I'm told you're here to break some new news here as well. So I'm excited about that. And while we're on the Epstein stuff, I looked at Polymarket. On Polymarket, they give a 3% chance that the evidence Epstein blackmailed politicians will be released by January 31st. Only a 3% chance. Anything that has to do with government accountability or doing the right thing always has a very, very, very low chance that it's going to happen on Polymarket. What do you think that is?

It's sad. It's 3% because we pulled off the almost impossible getting the bill through the House, through the Senate, the President to sign it. Having a judge now ordered all the files released. The fact that people still don't believe government, this should be a wake-up call. We've got a crisis in this country of trust. I'll tell you what the files are that need to be released. The witness statements, the prosecution memos, and we'll know who the people are to hold accountable.

Good. Real quick. Everybody gets a gift. Here you go. Vigilance League, Gummy Beers made in the USA. Legal in all 50 states.

Does this give you some secret power? No. I wish it did. Do I get to take these and then go meet Pam Bondi, get the files out?

I hope so. I love it. I'll give you an extra bag for. Then I have a Patreon account. It's a subscription account. We've turned it into quite the community. Thank you for this. You're welcome. I offer them the opportunity to ask every guest a question. This is from Braxton Ballard. Congressman Kana, with the current delay of the Epstein file release and lack of clarity in the information that is provided, what actions do American citizens have to begin demanding justice?

They need to say first why this matters, because you know what politicians say? People just care about health care costs. They do. They care about housing costs. Rowan Massey, this is a conspiracy theory. It's a distraction. People don't care. Let him know, first of all, you're a congressman, you're a senator, you're a politician, that you care that rich and powerful people can't play by their own rules, and you want to know who these people are so they're prosecuted and held accountable, and that you're disgusted that young girls were raped on a rape island and abused. You don't think it's a conspiracy theory that you want to know who the other powerful men are. Look, you either believe Massey, me and the survivors and people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, that this is one of the greatest scandals, and there are a lot of powerful people who raped these girls or covered it up and are hiding behind it, or you believe that it's a hoax. There's no in between. You either think I'm a liar, Massey's a liar, Marjorie Taylor-Green is a liar. The Survivors are a liar. Or you believe that something disgusting happened. So if we have that outrage, and then you...

Massey and I, this is my fight. I'm not giving up. Marjorie is not giving up. We've taken on a lot of interest. I don't care. I'm going to fight every day I'm in Congress until these files are released. We just put to a judge to create a special master to get these documents out. There are millions of these documents. I know which documents have the information, and we need people amplifying it. When Massey and I do something, blast it all over to the members of Congress. Tell the President that the MAGA base... You know what's most helpful is when the MAGA base speaks up because he doesn't care about people like me who voted for Kamala Harris. He doesn't care about people who are upset who have impeached him twice. I mean, he's like, Well, I'll screw them. I want. He cares about people who voted for him. He cares about people who are with him. And if they say to him, Mr. President, we're with you and all your other stuff, but not this, that's what's going to make a difference.

I've seen a lot of people reverse their opinions about a lot of very big podcasters dropping like flies in this administration. But how many files are there?

There's 300 megabits, is what Cash Patel said, the FBI director, and they've released one so far a bit. So it's like they've released less than 1%.

So how is that legal? Isn't it illegal what they're doing?

Well, it's obstruction of justice. A new president could prosecute them for what they're doing. They realize this, and that's why Pam Bondi has now said to the judge, Okay, we have millions more documents we need to release. We need more time.

Why do they need time? It's a fucking digital file. Why do you need time?

They've got actually two-thirds of the Southern district of New York attorneys working on this, apparently. Working on what? On redactions. Look, they need to look for some redactions, which is the survivors. But you know what? They've released some files with the survivor's names, but not the people who abuse the survivor's names. So they're claiming that they've got to get the survivor's names out. Fine.

They are legitimately proactively protecting pedophiles.

They are protecting pedophiles at this point.

By redacting the abuser's names.

The White House.

Listen up, everybody. The fucking White House is protecting pedophiles. You hear that? They're fucking protecting pedophiles. That's what the fuck they're doing.

And they're doing it because these people are rich, because they were donors, because they're powerful politicians. Look, I don't want to stoke baseless allegations, but it's clear to me that there's been some connections to foreign governments.

Which foreign governments?

There's certainly in the files to Israel. We need to know what those connections are. There have been questions and connections to Russia and the Russian oligarchs need to know what that information is. From survivor's lawyers, they're saying there are other national security agencies involved. I mean, think about it. How does Epstein, as a school teacher, end up with a half a billion dollars?

That's a great question.

He didn't invent AI. He's not like those founders who come to you doing some tech company. He's there and he's getting money from all these people. And he's got this ring of sex trafficking going on where he's farming out girls to different people. And he's having these parties on Epstein's rape island. How is this not the biggest scandal that you got these rich, powerful people in our society who think they get to play by their own set of rules? You know what upsets me, what pisses me off is people like you go and take all this risk with your life in Iraq, in Afghanistan. The guys Whatever you think of Ben as well, the guys who took the risk of their lives with that. They have this honor to the country, sacrifice for our values. You got rich and powerful people who think they've made a bunch of money who can exploit American girls or girls who are immigrants and have no consequence and get away with it. It's un-American. It's the most un-American selfish thing that totally degrades the service of people who do things, honorable things like, Where are the military uniform? And serve the nation.

And that's why I want to stick it to them. This whole Epstein class needs to go. And to me, this is the biggest issue in American politics. I'm biased because it's something I've devoted now this A lot of my life, too. But if we're going to allow rich and powerful people to do whatever they want in this country, and what's more elite impunity than abusing a young girl, if you're going to allow that, then you don't have a country, you don't have values, you don't have a democracy.

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I suspect that it was. What makes you believe it?

Have you seen anything?

From survivors and survivor's lawyers. I think that there are people that were rich and powerful folks who conveniently were given access to these parties or access to these girls. And Epstein, in turn, had a lot of information and a lot of context and was able to facilitate a lot of meetings. Now, I don't know what his motive was. Who was he doing the bidding for? That's why we need the files out. You've got a background in intelligence. You'd have a better sense than me. But I know that it's not something that doesn't smell right. It doesn't smell right that you have someone contact the FBI in 1996, Maria, and say that this guy is abusing young girls and the FBI doesn't look into it. Not only Why do they not look into it, our government and every person in the media has spent the last 30 years saying she was a liar. She never contacted the FBI. And it's only because of Massey and my law that part of the documents that came out was her complaint to the FBI in 1996. Thirty years later, she's vindicated. But there is something deeply rotten about what happened.

I want to know the financial interests who paid this guy, what his motive was to try to get all these rich and powerful people. Don't you think it's a bit odd that he's talking to prime ministers and politicians and head bankers, and they all are going down to this?

Everybody thinks it's odd. Everybody thinks it's odd.

And if there's nothing to hide, here's what I don't understand. All these people are saying, It's a hoax. It's a conspiracy. Massey and Connor are out there. They're stoking conspiracy. You know how you settle it?

What conspiracy?

They're like, Oh. Their claim, this is how ludicrous their Their claim is the only bad guy is Epstein and Maxwell. And everyone else, it's just Epstein and Maxwell who was a pervert, and we're focused on a dead guy who was a pervert and give it up. No one else was involved. Okay, if that's what you believe, that Epstein and Maxwell pulled this off with 1,200 girls and survivors, and all the girls and the women now are lying about the other rich and powerful people, and then he just happened to make a half a billion dollars, and he just happened to email every very powerful person in the world, including the current President and past Presidents and heads of states around the world. Most people can't even shake hands or get within a thousand feet of a President. And this guy knows them all. But it was just that he was a sexual pervert and no one else was involved. If that really is the case, then release the damn files. Release the files and prove Massey and me a liar. But there's no gray here. Either Massey and I and the survivors are telling the truth or we're lying.

So expose us. If you think we're lying, expose us. You'd end our political careers. But I know that I'm telling the truth. Massey knows that he's telling the truth, and I'm willing to take on the A death of powerful interests, because ultimately, until we hold a corrupt class accountable, people aren't going to trust government. I'm more liberal than you. I'm a progressive. I want the government to do stuff, health care, childcare. How do I make that case when people say the government is corrupt. You got to have transparency in government.

What are the files? Who wrote the files? Where did they come from? Are they FBI files? Are they Epstein's files? Are they Mossad's files? Are they Russian files? What are the files? Who is keeping tabs on all this shit?

Some of the files are the FBI. That's the most straightforward thing. There are basically 1,200 survivors and their lawyers who meet with an FBI agent and were interviewed. They ask these survivors, Tell us what happened to you. Tell us who else was involved. They're called 302 statements. Those statements should come out. They haven't released a single one of those. That's the first thing they should release. Then the FBI goes and interviews these men, suspects. Some of them may be innocent. I'm not saying everyone who the FBI interviews is guilty, but they have a memorandum of that. They say, Okay, when did you show up to the island? What were you doing? Why did you meet Epstein? They should release all of that. They have not released that. Then you have... Those are the FBI files. Then you have the Justice Department that took Epstein's computer, and they've got all his emails. They've got the photographs. They've got his correspondence. They should release all of that. They haven't released any of that. We know that evidence in the Epstein computer will show who else was involved. Then you've got the Justice Department having these prosecution memos.

Why does that matter? Because there was a brave assistant US attorney who said there's 60 counts against Jeffrey Epstein back in Florida in the early 2000s, 2007. They told her, Drop the case, only charge him with two counts. When does that happen? 58 counts banish. A guy who's raping underage girls only gets charged with two counts, is let out while under arrest to go continue to rape and abuse underage girls. Show us what those other 58 counts were. Show us why you decided not to prosecute. Then in 2019, there were co-conspirators who were named. Okay, Epstein wasn't alone. Suddenly, though, those co-conspirators are released. We don't have to prosecute the co-conspirators. Well, there's a prosecution memo explaining why the co-conspirators should have been prosecuted. Release that so we know why you chose to not prosecute people. Who are you protecting? Look, if you're not moved, By the fact, picturing a seventh-grader being raped on an island, or think of an eighth-grader in a party with multimillionaires and politicians being paraded around naked and people with drinks in their hand laughing. If you're not disgusted by that, be disgusted by the fact that rich and powerful people are so influential in this country that they had a President campaign on releasing the files.

They've had a House of Representatives pass Allah, the Senate pass Allah, and they still can't get the damn files out. Doesn't that just make you disgusted?

I want to know what the repercussions are. Because the deadline was December 19th, if I remember correctly, right?

Yeah.

It's January ninth. What are the repercussions? Are there any repercussions? I haven't seen any politicians have any fucking repercussions ever.

Well, there are repercussions. First of all, they thought, okay, they're going to do the release and people are going to forget about it. They'll release a bunch of BS, and then no one's going to care. One of the reasons that I appreciate your voice is that you're calling them on that. You're not letting them get away with it. They were shocked. Christmas Eve, they come out and say, okay, no, no, no, We have got more documents because they realized that their own base, the MAGA base, wasn't letting them get away with this. So they come out now in January, they say to the judge, We've got 3 million more documents, 5 million more documents. We're going to release them in these next few weeks. And Massey and I went to the judge and said, You need to supervise this and see how these documents come out. Now, if they don't do it, there's three repercussions. Massey and I will be introducing inherent contempt next week, which only requires the House to pass it. And Pam Bondi can be personally fined up to $10,000 every day that the documents don't come out.

That's it?

No, that's the first. The second thing is she's breaking the law, and she and other people in the Justice Department can be put in jail. I mean, they can be prosecuted. Now, I don't think Donald Trump is going to do it, but we're going to have a new President, and that new President can do it.

They'll all be pardoned, so that will never happen.

You think he'll pardon all of them? Yeah, of course.

Why wouldn't he?

Well, there are career Justice Department officials who, if they're along with this, he'd have to pardon a lot of people. There are hundreds of attorneys reviewing this stuff. It'd be a pretty big conspiracy if everyone is breaking the law. But yeah, look, it may be a case that it takes a new president to get all of this out, and some people get away with it. But I'm concerned about the destruction of evidence, too. I mean, making sure that the evidence is not destroyed.

How would you do that? How would you destroy- How would you ever be certain that the evidence wasn't destroyed or it hasn't been Well, look, you can't be certain, but the survivor's lawyers have seen the files, some of the survivor's lawyers.

So they would know if there's things missing. Their career Justice Department officials have seen the files. And now, if you're part of the group that are destroying these files, you're taking a big risk because you're violating the law. You could be prosecuted. I mean, it's not just people in Trump's circle. You're a career prosecutor. You're really risking your career if there's prosecution. So I do think we're going to get to the truth of the matter, whether we're going to get accountability for Bondi and Patel. We're trying everything we can, but ultimately, if Trump pardons them, yeah, they get away with it.

Let's just reverse engineer this. So you said the only thing that needs to be... Maybe you didn't say the only thing. The main thing. The main thing that needs to be redacted is 1,200 names. Correct. The victim's names. You're a Silicon Valley guy. You mean to tell me we can't create a fucking AI program that just redacts the names in about, I don't know, three minutes? All three million files in there, just blacks them out. All the people over there in Silicon Valley, Palantier, all these things, they can't figure out how to make a program that just redacts that real quick?

They could.

I'm sure. They could. I know. I'm being a little facetious here.

But they could. Yeah. No, look, obviously, they want to drag their feet. They'll claim, Okay, that's not enough. There needs to be human check on AI. Fine. Massey and I are less concerned about the time. If they had come back to us and said, Look, you're pushing too fast on December 19th, we're going to do it by March 15th. Fine. The problem we have is they're not releasing the actual documents. They're releasing fluff. Here and there, they gave us something, but they're not releasing the witness memorandum. They're not releasing the Epstein files. They're protecting people. And Trump is out there himself saying, Yeah, I got a lot of people to get hurt. I don't want my buddies to get hurt. That's what I don't get. I really don't get why he doesn't just come out and get these files out. And what is the force? What is holding it back?

It's a blackmail operation. What do you think is holding them back? Say it.

What do you think? I don't know.

What do I think? I think it's Israel. I think Israel, Mossad, God is holding this shit back. That's what I think. Have you seen anything, any context here that might make you believe that in the last six months, last year?

Like I've said, I have reason to believe that foreign governments were involved and that the names that have come up have been Russia and Israel. What the level of involvement? I have no idea. But there's some force more powerful than just campaign donors involved in covering this up because otherwise it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense why they're fighting so hard to keep these files. You can say a lot of things about Donald Trump. He understands politics. He don't get elected President twice. Vice, he knows this thing is hurting him. It's the one issue that is hurting him amongst his base. So why wouldn't he just get the files out? And that's what Marjorie Taylor-Green was saying. This thing was never about trying to go after Trump. And there's actually no evidence that I've seen that he was involved in the abuse of underage girls. We haven't seen any evidence of that. There are other rich and powerful men. So why if you're the President, wouldn't you just say, okay, get it out there? I don't get it. There's some force bigger than that that is holding back us getting to the truth. And that's what should be disturbing to Americans.

Other than that our culture needs a moral reckoning that we allow this to happen. What are the forces that are preventing us from doing this? And are we going to get people actually willing to stand up to it?

It seems like you got a lot of people standing up to it. I mean, I don't know what else everybody can do, but everybody's screaming. I don't know anybody that's not screaming at the top of their lungs, release these damn files.

Except the administration. Invite the vice president back. Ask him. Well, he could get involved.

Oh, they're not going to come back here, Ro.

Really? No. But Trump may not. He wants to run. He's got to come back in 2080. I hope he does.

I would love for him to come back, but I don't know. I've been pretty hard on him lately.

Well, I just think, look, we disagree, we go back and forth, but I think he could be a constructive force here. He should be the guy saying, Well, let's get these files out. Like, does he want to have this as a liability? Why?

I mean, he said it three years ago. I just retweeted it today.

Yeah. No, I mean, he should be out there saying, Get all the stuff out there. Like, this is a new generation of politicians, Democrats like Rocana, May, Massey, Marjorie Taylor-Greed. It's a previous generation that did all this horrible stuff. Expose it at the Fste class. When Democrats have fallen, I haven't had any sympathy The first guy taken out was a British ambassador. He constructed Tony Blair's victory. The reality is Larry Somers was a Treasury Secretary for Bill Clinton, and he was caught up in all of this. I said that I support. If the Clinton's coming and testifying, fine. If it's Democrats, Republicans, I don't care. Massey doesn't care.

What was the deal with the Clintons? They were supposed to show up.

They should show up. I support Colmer, that he's the Republican. He said, Look, let's have him in front of the committee, and they're scheduling it. But I said, yeah, they should answer what they know.

So they did not refuse to show up? They have not refused to show up.

Okay, so that was media bullshit. Now, the scheduling, they need to do it soon, and we need to have... They should show up. They should do the deposition. But there shouldn't be a selective release. Don't have the Justice Department just put Bill Clinton's pictures in there because you know you want to make political headlines. Release everything. So play it straight. Massey and I have played it straight. If it's 90% Democrats in their files, I don't care. If it's 90% Republicans, I don't care. Man should have the same thing. He's not in the files. He's in his 40s. It's a bunch of people who are now in their 70s and 80s who are caught up in all of this stuff. There needs to be a cleaning. That's why I said this Epstein class needs to go. I think the only The only thing that's going to get this out is the MAGA base, because that's what got the bill passed. I don't think he even realized he signed my bill. We kept saying it was a Massey bill because it was a Republican bill. I don't think he's like, I signed Rocana's bill. He didn't have a signing ceremony.

We had Massey and I called. He didn't want to do a signing ceremony for the bill. But the point is, we had 70 Republicans willing to vote for my bill in defiance of his opposition. Then he realized, Okay, I don't want that. So he said, I'll sign the bill. The only thing that will get him to release these files is if Mariah says, look, we're with you on a lot of things. We voted for you three times. We disagree with Khanna on Medicare for All. We disagree with him on Venezuela. We disagree with him on calling That ice. We're with you, Mr. President. But you know what? This Epstein stuff, he's right about that. Release these files. That's what we need. His base needs to demand this off of him.

They are, though. Am I missing something? They are.

I don't think they've been vocal, not to the point where he thinks that he could lose them. I mean, he thinks, okay, they're upset on this one thing. They need to say, this is a red line for us because you told us there were pedophiles in part of the government. You told us they're rich and powerful people who are corrupt. You said you were going to drain the swamp. You never pretended to be a perfect person. We knew, okay, like many people, you had warts in your life, but you were going to clean up the system. You were going expose the system. You haven't done that. Do that. Whether it's Vance or Trump, they've got to get these files out. And they think it's not the central issue. The cost of living is an issue. Affordability is an issue. I get all of that. But there's something deeper. There's something called morality. There's something called country's values. That's what this is getting at.

They know this is a big deal. Oh, man, it makes me so fucking angry. How many abusers do you think were involved? Do you know?

I think there are three types of abusers, the ones who were actually Raped underage girls. I would say maybe at least a dozen or a handful. I'm not saying that that's the biggest number, but there are people from just conversations with survivors will know once the files are out. The second, people who showed up at these parties and saw young girls parading around and knew they were being abused and didn't say anything. That number is in the hundreds and covered it up. And then the third is people who were trafficking girls who were slightly overage, 19, 20, and being exploited, who may have been raped when they were underage and saying, Okay, yeah, do you have a girl for me? Where do I meet her? Technically, it was over the age of consent. But anyone who looks at that will know they were abusing these girls in terms of the emotional, physical damage to these girls. All of that is in the files.

Jeez. How long was this going on? Decades. Decades? Decades.

20, 30 years? 20, 30 years. That's why when people, they do the got you question sometimes. Oh, Ro, you guys didn't speak out about this enough in the Biden administration. First of all, I did speak out in 2019. But second, I say, Yeah, we should have. We were wrong. This country has been asleep. That's not a reason not to care now. Now I've gotten to know these survivors. Like, yeah, all of us were guilty for 25 years, other than a few journalists, for not caring, for abandoning these girls. Fine. Guilty as charged. Now, let's move on. Let's actually do something about it and get these files out. That's the honest truth. This is not a Trump thing or a Vans thing. This is an America thing. It's a crisis that we didn't care about these girls. We treated them as abandoned property for the gratification of rich and powerful people, and they didn't matter.

We know how We know a lot of ways he was tied to Israel. He was an Israeli. Maxwell's dad was involved with Mossad. I mean, he wears an IDF shirt and a bunch of the photos that were released. So we know that he's tied to Israel. How was he tied to Russia?

There are survivor's accounts, again, without the specific names. I'm talking about Russian oligarchs who were involved in coming to the island, who were involved in the traffic trafficking. There are accounts about him having access to Putin and being able to facilitate meetings with Putin in some of the documents. So he obviously had ties to both the oligarchs in Russia and to people close to Putin. And that needs to be explored. Why wouldn't you want to know if these other countries that have access to the most powerful people in our country and are getting information about that?

Because it exposes them. That's the only thing I can think of. Am I missing anything with the ties to Israel?

Look, I think you're right that there are obviously ties. I've tried to be, Massey and I have tried to be careful in that we don't want to stoke something unnecessarily, but it needs to be examined and we need to get the facts out. And The fact that foreign governments are involved, every lawyer of the survivors who I've talked to, and many survivors have said that that is the case. So let's figure out the facts.

Man, what am I missing? What should I be asking you that I'm not asking about the Epstein files right now?

How do we actually get them out? I'd say this, look, they're going to be a number of dates in January January where they're going to do a document release. And so far, people have been paying attention. Every time they've done a document release, the server has crashed because so many people are looking at the documents. And every time they do that, they think, Okay, we're done. People are satisfied. They can move on. Don't let them move on. Every time they do a document release, if it's not actually the things there, speak out on social media, tag Bondi, tag Blanchard, tag Vance, tag Massey, Marjorie Taylor Greene, me, Bolbert, say, We want this information out. That's the only thing that you say. Is Massey and my contempt going to work? We'll try. Is future prosecution going to work? We'll try. It's when the American people speak out. That's why I flew down here. That's why I came here, because I know you've got a lot of people following this. You've been on this before. Even I or Massey were on this. You've been speaking about this for years. Your audience cares about this. We need them to continue to fight for it.

They're going to be pissed. Ro, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll get into some Roblox stuff. Sounds good. Perfect. New Year, big goals, and not a lot of time to cook. That's why I've been using Factor. Factor are meals that are sent right to your front door, designed by chefs and dietitians so that you can eat well without going to the store or cooking. What I like most is what goes into the food. Quality ingredients like lean proteins, colorful veggies, wholefoods, and healthy fats. No refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners, and no refined seed oils. Factor makes it easy to stay on track whether your goal is healthier eating, calorie management, or getting more protein. I've been reaching for the high protein meals. They're filling, they taste great, and make consistency easy. They rotate over 100 meals every week, including high protein, calorie smart, Mediterranean-style options, GLP-1 support, ready to eat Salads, and the new Muscle Pro Meals for strength and recovery. Everything arrives fresh, never frozen, and is ready in about two minutes. No prep, No stress. I use this, and you should, too. Head to factormeals. Com/srs50off and use code SRS50 off to get 50% off your first Factor box, plus free breakfast for one year.

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Go to calderalab. Com/ srs, and use code SRS for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab. Com/srs. These statements and products have not been evaluated by the FDA. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or condition. All right, Ro, we're back from the break. I think we've pretty much wrapped up the Epstein stuff, but I do want to ask you, you've talked to a lot of these victims. You've talked to their attorneys. You are their champion. What do these victims want to see happen? What are these poor girls that have been fucking raped over and over and over and over again? What do they want?

They want to be seen and heard. That's why some of them cared about the law passing. Some people said, First time I actually felt heard and seen by the American people. Many of them want to meet the President to explain to him what happened. So they have some sense that they're not being just labeled as a hoax. They've asked that, Can they go meet with him? They want the people who abused them or stayed quiet to be publicly exposed and to be held accountable. They don't want buildings named after them. They don't want them to see them on television being celebrated. They don't want to see them at powerful positions and corporations. And they want prosecution. I mean, the prosecution is the hardest part. They're not naive. They think that may be the hardest part, but they want some sense of acknowledgement by this country that what happened to them was wrong and disgusting.

Do you think they'll ever see that?

I do think that the House and Senate passing that was a big moment for survivors. If you watch the footage of them in tears and feeling hurt. And by the way, for sexual assault survivors around the country saying, finally, the government is waking up and actually saying that there's a problem in this country. But I think it will be a betrayal of all of that if these files remain stuck. And until these files are released and they're released fully, and we have some sense of accountability as a country, they're going to feel abandoned. There needs to be a reckoning, sense of justice before we can have people moving on and healing.

Are you at all worried about the repercussions if it is fully disclosed? I mean, a lot of people think that the entire country's power structure will be decimated. A lot of people think that the entire world power structure will be decimated because so many people are involved in this. Do you have any fear about that, that the power structure will be in rubble because so many were involved with this?

I think if this had been released 15 years ago, yes. But I think some of these people are no longer actively in power. They're towards the end of their careers. They just want this to go away. So now I think it can be exposed without that disruption. But will it cause an enormous moral reckoning in this country? I think we're going to be embarrassed and shocked and angry and disgusted with ourselves as a people that we allowed it to happen. I think it's going to cause us to re examine potentially relationships around the world and what we allow it to take place. I think it's going to force us to re examine the power that rich and powerful people have in this country over the justice system and a sense that there are elites who've gotten away with things you and I can't. Most people, they get a parking ticket, they get a camera light ticket, and their car will get booted if they don't pay the tickets. That's the life for 95% of Americans. Then you got these 5% who are doing the most heinest things and laughing about it.

Let's move on to Roblox.

Another topic of not inspiration.

You're doing the right It sounds like you're the only one doing the right thing over there. Is it true that you're the first and only congressman to go up against Roblox?

I was because of this kid, Schlepp, who you know. He showed so much courage. He was basically a whistleblower. There are people on Roblox who are acting as predators, pedophiles, taking advantage of kids or playing games.

And there was not Still happening. Still happening. Not was. Still happening.

But still happening when he started, well, he's been kicked off the platform, which is why he's used the past tense. It's still happening. But he was kicked off because he was going out and he was exposing these folks. Because Roblox wasn't doing it. No one was listening to him. He was basically kicked off the platform for doing this. As a guy from Silicon Valley, I said, This is crazy because the company is in my area. I said, I'm going to come to this 21-year-old kid's defense. People said, What are you doing? You're going to take on these billionaire founders? I said, Yeah, I don't care. I took it on the Epstein class. Who cares about this? That's good for you. We did a petition to support what Schlepp was doing and saying he should be reinstated in Roblox. They kicked him out. Let's let him back onto the platform, and let's have transparency of what are you doing to make sure that You don't have pedophiles and predators on your platform, preying on 12, 13, 14-year-old kids.

Is he back on there?

He's not yet. But all he was doing is saying, Okay, I'm going to expose this guy who's a creepy old guy having conversations with a young girl, young boy, because Roblox is not doing it. And so the response to that is to kick him off? I mean, come on. And all he's fighting for is safety standards. I mean, your kids are on these platforms. They're playing games. Yeah.

He just doesn't want a 12-year-old girl to be exploited sexually and have to carve slut into her forehead with razor blades. Seriously? That's the shit they're doing on there. Did you know that?

I didn't know that example. I didn't know that one, but I know they're doing- There's a bunch of these.

They've had women, excuse me, girls, young girls, swallow razor blades. Oh, my God. They had one commit suicide on camera.

That's disgusting.

It's disgusting, isn't it? We uncovered a lot of this about a month ago, two months ago with Brian Montgomery. The day we released the episode, it took one week, $6 billion off their stock in one week because of this episode.

That's why you should have Schlepp on. I don't know if you've had him on, but he-We're talking to him. Yeah, but he showed courage. The reality is, look, if you're a 44, 45, 50-year-old guy and you're talking to a 13-year-old girl online, that's unacceptable. If you're a coach or something, fine. But there's no reason for a 50-year-old guy to be talking to a 13-year-old goal on a gaming site. How hard is this to detect? They're like, Well, we don't know if it's pedophilia. You don't have to have people swallowing lasers. Just You can't be talking to young girls being a 45-year-old guy on a gaming site. You can't be talking to young boys like, What the hell are you doing on there? And that's going on, and it's rampant, and they hide behind, Well, how do we know? You know, based on common sense. If you wouldn't allow your own daughter to hang out with someone in a room unsupervised playing a game, then you shouldn't be allowing it online.

I want to clarify, too. That's not happening on Roblox. It's at 7: 06 6: 4 satanic cult that's pursuing the kids on Roblox, pulling them off, and they're doing it in these chat rooms and stuff. But Ryan has showed me tons of stuff that's going on on there. It's just horrific. It's all censored.

Look, this is the responsibility of technology companies. There's a lot of positives to allowing people to get information being on social media, but you can't have exploitation. You can't have pedophilia. You can't have pornography. You can't be having algorithms feed junk on social media to young girls where they're thinking of eating disorders or suicide. We've allowed a lot of the social media to get out of hand and not protect our kids. I'm the guy who represents Silicon Valley. I'm for innovation. I'm for technology. But you do that with common sense that you protect kids on these platforms.

Speaking of Silicon Valley, how about that billionaire tax? How's that going?

I've gotten quite a lot of hot water in that one. You know what I found out, though? You know who was the first person to propose one of these taxes? One of the few first people, Donald Trump. When he was running for President in 2000, he called for a 14. 5% tax on anyone making over $10 million. And he said, If you're wealthy, you can pay a tax. And since I don't know what he thinks now, but my point is this, look, I'm all for entrepreneurs, and I'm all for people making billions of dollars. Fine. You're Brilliant. Like Steve Jobs and build Apple. Great. You build Tesla, SpaceX. Great. I once said to Elon, stick to cars in Mars or something. You build all that wealth. Fine. But we've got to have a social contract in this country where wealth can't just be in the hands of the few. You've got to have some sense that every person working class families are going to benefit from that. And you get people having health care, childcare, education. That's my view.

Well, I'm not going to disagree with you and say that there is a... I mean, there's definitely a gap here, and it's a fucking problem. But if you just look at history, every time this happens, the business owners, they just leave. They go somewhere else, and then there are no jobs. It sounds like that's what they're going to do if this tax goes through.

Well, I think it has to be designed in a way that you can't tax illiquid stocks. You can't tax companies that are still not profitable. You've got to get conversations with people who want to design it in a reasonable way and have a consensus on how to do it. So I'm not saying that you can't fix some of the design. But ultimately, the idea that having just a 1% tax a year, I mean, a theory on building wealth when you make about 10% every year anyway in the stock market, and then you're going to use that to make sure people have health care and childcare and education. I just think that's what's going to prevent It's a revolution. Think about the guys who went in Venezuela, right? They stick the landing despite being shot at. They wear the uniform. They give every single thing for this country. You're saying to me, okay, if you're going to, let's say, in a countrywide, have a 1% tax on wealth that people are going to leave, come on, have some more patriotism. You have some loyalty to the country.

Just a caveat to that. What are you going to spend the money on? Where's the money going to go? I Look at our fucking cities, bro. Look at Chicago, St. Louis, San Francisco, LA, New York, tons of Minnesota right now. I mean, look at all this shit. Our cities are fucking trashed. We have a fentanyl problem. Where's all the money going? It sure as fuck isn't going into this country. You know where it's going? It's going to Ukraine. It's going to Israel. It's going to fight war in Venezuela. It's It's going everywhere but here, and we all see it. Everybody fucking sees it. Everybody sees more billions allotted to Ukraine, more billions allotted to Israel, more billions allotted to whatever. Everything seems to go out of the country. Why would any business owner want to pay more tax just to have it shipped out of the fucking country?

Well, there I agree with you about the waste and the-Look at the shit that just happened with the learning centers.

Supposedly $9 billion.

I'm not going to depend on the waste and the fraud. Two things.

It's been sucked out of the country. I on top of that? I mean, Scott Besson just said yesterday that there's approximately $600 billion in fraud in the US. I mean, don't you think we might want to get a handle on that before we tax everybody more or tax the wealth? The wealthy more?

I think we absolutely need to get a handle both on the overseas wars. I mean, we spent $6 trillion dollars on Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm against these regime change wars. I'm against going and trying to do regime change in Venezuela. And now, what do we want to occupy the country for three years? Think about how much that's going to cost. I voted against the billions of dollars that we gave Netanyahu when he was slaughtering people in Gaza. I was opposed, of course, to October seventh as a terrorist attack in Hamas, but we We can't just be giving billions of dollars of offensive weapons for two years to Netanyahu. I do believe that we need to stop a military budget of these endless wars.

Here's a great analogy. You're a dad. If your kids are fucking starving to death, why would you give your money to your neighbor so that your neighbor's kids can eat instead of yours? Why would you do that?

Look, I think we have to first take care of our family. We have starving people here.

We have people that are dying of fentanyl every day.

We have been around to. Look, in Argentina, we're bailing on Argentina's failed leadership. I'm all for Focusing on not these endless wars, not wasting money overseas, focusing on building our communities. I'm also for getting rid of the fraud, waste, and inefficiencies. Fdr, who is one of my favorite presidents, New Deal, He said, There's total local inefficiencies in government, wasted money in local government, state governments. I'm going to tackle that. I'm also going to tax the wealthy to get people health care and childcare and jobs. I think we have to do both. But I spoke out on oversight yesterday about the fraud that was going on in Minnesota and other places. I wasn't like, Okay, let's just defend it. I said, Let's do an audit on all 50 states. Look at the inefficiency spending in Sacramento. Look at it in Minnesota. But look at it in all 50 states. And let's have an audit. Let's understand why we wasted money. Why did we waste money in the pandemic when unemployment checks were claimed as fraud? What were the projects that have been wasted? And have a clear accountability so that people know where their tax dollars are going.

You have to do that if you have my view that we want government to do health care and child care and jobs. People may You disagree with me that that's the obligation of government, but I feel that people should have basic education and health care to be able to have a decent life. But I've got the responsibility to take on a fraud and waste and abuse, and I don't think this should be partisan. I don't think we need to be defending wasteful, inefficient government.

I don't think... I'm sure a lot of people would argue, but I think all in all, it is better for You and I and everybody in this country, if we have a better education system. I can't argue that. I don't want my taxes to go up. I don't want to fucking pay for it. But yes, I can't argue that. It would be great if everybody had health care, and it was actually affordable. But is it even a possibility to just think and go, You know what? We're not going to tax them anymore. Let's get this waste, fraud, and abuse under control and reallocate those funds to what you want to do? Why couldn't we do it like that rather than penalize them? Because look, I'm a business owner, bro. I bust my fucking ass to make what I have. I mean, 12 to 18 hour days every day, seven days a week. My team works their ass off. I don't want to pay for everybody else's shit. I have a drive, and it takes a lot of work. I do not want to pay for somebody else to sit on their ass at home.

I don't know your story. Did you go to public school?

I did go to public school.

So did I, right? You want a decent public school for everyone. I don't know about you. I had teachers who believed in me and paved the way. I grew up in a middle-class family, but I didn't have to worry about being able to see a doctor, get a physical. I just want the basics. The reality is, by being honest about the math, is, yes, we need to go about waste and fraud. I don't think the math works to be able to get health care for everyone and to be able to get a decent education for everyone, trade schools or college. If you just do that without having the extraordinary wealthy pay a bit more in tax. Look, my district, where you have more people on for my district than anyone. Probably. We've got $18 trillion of wealth. One-third of America's wealth is in my 50-mile radius district. Five companies over a trillion dollars. Nvidia, Google, Apple, Tesla, and Broadcom. And they asked Jensen, the NVIDIA CEO, he said, Yeah, okay, fine. I'll pay a tax or something. I love living in Silicon Valley. Whatever you think about the design of this tax, you can't have a nation where you've got some places with $18 trillion.

Then where I grew up in Pennsylvania, in Bucks County, the Steel Mill, Fairless Works, shut down in Western Pennsylvania, hollowed out factories, all going over to China or Mexico, people feeling like their kids and grandkids aren't going to have a shot at the American dream. That's not a country that works. Why can't you say, Okay, we've got to get this prosperity, not just in Silicon Valley, not just in the AI revolution. We need to industrialize America, have a Marshall Plan for America, build up new factories and industry, build up new trade schools, build up new tech centers and jobs across the country, have health care and basic public education for the country. That's what I call economic patriotism. It's to build up this country. I I don't think that's a bad bet long term because it's saying that we want prosperity, but a basic shot for everyone in this country.

It'd be great. I'd just love to see the ways fraud abuse gone first before we all have to pay more taxes. But that's just me and everybody else.

Let me ask you this. I don't know if you're a billionaire now. You don't have to tell me.

I'm definitely not a billionaire.

But when you become a billionaire, if you became, when You become a billionaire. If you thought that the money was actually going positively, right? We're actually building factories in Western Pennsylvania, or jobs for kids in Warren, Ohio.

If I knew the money was going to the right place, I would do it.

You would do it.

I would do it, but I don't believe the money is going to go to the right place. I mean, I donate a lot of money to kids, this stuff that we're talking about. Organizations that are doing something to protect kids. That's the thing that's nearest and dearest to my heart. I spend a lot of time and donate a lot of money to veteran organizations because I'm a veteran. I donate to single mothers. That's another thing that's near and dear to my heart. I still do my part. I'm not the-I know you do. I'm not the asshole that's keeping everything. I care about people. I want people to succeed. I want them to be successful. I want them to get over their trauma. I love good good people. But when I see all this stuff, when I see illegals being housed in hotels, and I see the Somali stuff that was just uncovered by my neck. It's just like, man, when I see another couple of billion go to another country, I'm like, man, why? Let me ask you this. I go to Chicago, this place looks like a fucking war zone. Why are we sending money Overseas.

I mean, yeah, I would love to help all the people overseas, but look at this place. This is where we live.

No, that I agree with you. We're wasting all this money on Argentina and Venezuela. We should be focused more on Virginia and Pennsylvania and Ohio and people here. But let me ask you, your genuine view, because I know you're a little bit more conservative than I am. We used to have a national aspiration, a national project of doing great things as Americans. We won World War II. We built up Europe with the Marshall Plan. We built up our own industry and doing amazing things. We won the Cold War. We went to the moon. We started the Internet through Darpa and NSF. We invented a GPS. We invented AI through the government. How do we convince people that you can have public excellence again, that you can have national projects that work again, that you can have a sense that we all do something with government that makes life better? Because I agree with you. Right now, people think it's corrupt with Epstein. They waste money. But you can't have a great nation if people don't believe it's possible to do great things with our government. We've lost that ability of faith other than the military.

People are like, Okay, we've got a great military. But how do we have that more broadly as a national aspiration?

I'll tell you, we have to have trust in you guys, and that's at an all-time low. We have to have trust in the institutions, and that's at an all-time low. I think you'd know why all of those are at an all-time low, because exactly what you're fighting right now, a lot of stuff that happened within the last administration. The one before that, the one before that. But we haven't seen any of these agencies be held accountable for going rogue. We haven't seen any politicians held accountable for going rogue. Why would any of us believe you. I mean, it's... Bro, I'm just going to be honest. It's so fucking bad now. I don't even think I'm going to vote the next time because what's the point? What's the point? I sat there and interviewed everybody. They all fucking lied to my face. Nothing has happened.

Let me challenge you, Sean. Look, we've had people scale the cliffs of Normandy, right? So you and I could be free. John Lewis was beaten on the Edmund Pettus Bridge. My grandfather, he was an American. He was an India. He was part of Ghani's movement for Independence. He was in jail for four years so that India could be a free country so my parents could come here. There are so many people who have sacrificed for this country to build this country. You did when you wore the uniform. We can't give up out of cynicism on the American project. It's like we have been so blessed with people who have sacrificed so much more. To say, Look, it's all corrupt. We're going to give up, is to squander the sacrifices of people who built America.

I hear you.

I mean, I'm- Get up and run for Congress.

I'm not running for Congress. I've thought about it.

Or run for President. You never know. There was another guy who didn't have elective office who did pretty well.

I think I'm good on it. I actually thought about it, but- You would be great. Well, the people that I thought that I talked to about it that are in there said that I have a lot more influence out here than I ever- That is true.

You do. But look, I'm not saying this. A lot of people, it's easy to tear things down. The harder thing is, how do we build it up. You got a huge platform.

We have to have trust, though. I don't even know how many politicians I've had sit across from me over the years. Man, I can't think of a A single one of them that got in there and did what they said they were going to do, maybe even attempted to do what they said they were going to do.

That's sad.

It is fucking sad.

How do you assess my honesty here? Because you're going against the grain. Well, Massey and I are willing to say we're willing to risk our seats, right?

Whatever you think. And you're coming together with the enemy. Not the enemy. You know what I mean? It's been very divisive. And that's one thing that I've been trying to display here. That's why I brought Gavin Newsman. That's why I brought Hunter Biden on. I want to show that, hey, we can have a conversation without trying to kill each other.

I didn't know Hunter was that smart until I heard about your thing. Because he was so caricatured in the media. Then I was like, wow, the guy has complex thoughts. Probably going to get in trouble from Hunter. But I was like, the first time I heard him was on your show. We're like, And he held his own. So you did him a big favor.

I like him.

That thing went went viral. But look, I think we need people like you to participate in the political process to help to rebuild the process. Because the thing that concerns me about China, I was just in China. I'm now the top Democrat on the China Committee. They got 20% youth unemployment. They don't have nearly, in my view, the innovation that we do or the sense of having the best and brightest from around the world want to come to America. They're not lining up to go to China. They're lining up to to the United States of America. So what is our problem? Our problem is cynicism and corrosiveness and division, where we give up on the government and we give up on our ability to self-govern. And that's a real risk. Okay, we did Epstein, the files aren't coming out. We aren't being able to stop money in politics. We see all this waste and fraud. If we give up on having a national purpose, national international aspiration, we lose this country. I don't know how... That, to me, is the hardest thing to fight. It's like I could tell you the programs I'm for, but how do we overcome the despair, the anger, the cynicism?

How do we inspire this country? The way, whether you were John F. Kennedy or FDR, Lincoln, Reagan, who I disagreed with, how do we create that sense of like, Yeah, I want America to succeed. You know, I felt like the last time I felt like that.

You're going to have to prove to the people that it's not a two-tiered class system. Yeah. And that is likely the only way it's going to happen. Somebody's ass is going to have to get pinned to the fucking wall, and we're all going to have to see it to believe that there is not a two-tiered system. But there is a two-tiered system. It's very obvious. You're seeing it right now.

Yeah. And that's what the Epstein class is all about. It's one set of rules for the powerful. And by the way, look what they did to this country, right? Symbolically, not just the people who were pedophiles, but this Epstein class of rich and powerful people. They watched as jobs left America. All the industries hollowed out. They didn't care. Profits were going up. Their shareholders were doing fine. They watched as people's costs of health care went up, childcare went up. They watched as 70% of Americans don't think the American dream matters. They got us in all these wars overseas and didn't make us safer. So people have had it with that class of folks. They want something new. They want something different. They want people who are going to take on a corrupt elite. I think that's why I'm saying. We need people like you or others in your show to get out there, run, start to take the government back, and to have a sense of transparency, not fraud, not standing up against a corrupt elite, and then offering a sense of a vision for what we do as a country.

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But I see these guys, and there's a handful of seals in Congress. I'm a seal. It's a tight-knit community, right? Yeah. In other veterans, too, especially the special operations guys. But they are so... Except one seal. There's one guy in there. But no, seriously, they are frustrated. I can see it on their face. They're demoralized.

Yeah, I hear that because there's a different sense of camaraderie. It's not just, I think, the folks in the Seals.

They can't get on a committee if they don't play ball. All they care about, I don't know about all of them, but the few that I'm speaking about that I'm close with, they just want to do the right thing, and they can't. It's sad.

Yeah, No, I hear that. One, we need term limits, I think, in these-Your four term limits? I am. I'm one of the few Democrats. I worked with Brian Fitzpatrick and Jody Errington. I don't think you should do more than twelve years as a House member or two terms as a Senator. Some people, they're 30, 40 years. Come on, do something else with your life. I think we got to get rid of all the PAC money and lobbyist money, super PAC money.

I'd love to see that.

Those two things.

You don't take any PAC money, do you?

I don't take PAC money. I don't take lobbyists money. I don't have a super PAC. You just get rid of PAC money, lobbyists money. You create term limits, and you make sure members of Congress can't become lobbyists. I've been on the Arm Services Committee for 10 years, and I didn't serve in the military, but I've developed such admiration, respect for people who have served. You know what a lot of people do after they're on the Arm Services Committee? They don't go wear the uniform. They don't go like Theodore Roosevelt to go fight the wars or Abraham Lincoln did. They go and work for the defense companies that they were supposed to regulate as lobbyists. So stop members of Congress from becoming lobbyists. You do those three things and you would clean up so much of our country. I respect people who disagreed with me, let's say, on the wealth tax. But what I don't respect is people saying, okay, now I'm going to pour in millions of dollars to take this guy out because I disagree with How do we have that system of government where people can use their wealth for power, where people can stay in Congress for years just to accumulate power There are no term limits.

We've got to return to basic democracy. People who wear the uniform, you know why your guys, your friends see it most? It's because they sacrifice. It's a totally different culture in the military. It's all about the mission. That's the difference. It's mission. Mission first, ego second. Politics is ego first, mission second.

Country second.

You know what? I'm tired of the charismatic politicians. How about courage is the new charisma? I don't need the guy who's going to be the entertainer or the charmer. Do we think in the military, the best person is the guy who's the funniest or the most charming or the person who's got the most magnetism? No. It's the person who, despite being shot five times still lands the mission. The person who cares more about the guys in his battalion than his own life. How about we start to get people of courage and substance in politics? It is not their ideas, it's not their intellect, it's not their degrees. Frankly, it's just courage and putting people first instead of putting themselves first. That's the culture of the military, actually, in terms of what works. There are no big egos. It's all about the mission. And that's what we've lost in our politics. The last time we had a mission, I disagreed with the war in Iraq, but the last time I really felt that was when George W. Bush, after 9/11, was saying, The Rocks. And he was like, Those people who did this to us, they're going to hear from us.

It was a sense of, okay. I remember, they stopped the flyers game because I grew up in Philadelphia to hear the President of the United States talk about what this country was going to do. How do we get that mission again as a country?

I think I just told you, but we got to see it happen. Well, I'm just curious, what percentage of Congress is four term limits?

It's not a lot. I bet. It's not a lot.

How many of you are there?

Two or three? Now, candidly, there are more Republicans for it than Democrats.

Why do you think that is? I'm just curious.

The real reason, one reason, which is legitimate but changing, is when we had the Jim Crow South, and when it was very hard for African markets to run for office and win statewide. The only way the black community would be able to gain a voice is to get to Congress because they couldn't win statewide and then develop seniority in Congress. So some people feel like, okay, finally they have a voice. Now, if you're going to have turbulents, you're going to get rid of that voice that's been building since the civil rights movement. That's one substantive reason. But a lot of it is also cultural. I think Republicans feel like they do other stuff. They're business owners, military Democrats have a love for public service. So that's a good thing because we think government can do important things. It should do important things. But it can also become a sense of, well, let other people have a turn. Don't just do 40 years. One of the reasons that was for Bernie Sanders is he was an outsider. He was like, yeah, I want a new group of people in charge. It wasn't even his policies. It was just like the same group of people are running things.

Let me break up the system. And that's why you had so many people drawn to outsider candidates. But yeah, they're more Republicans than Democrats. But I think it's also generational. A new generation, I think it'd be for term limits. But you get term limits and you get rid of the money in politics. And those are the two biggest things that would clean up the system.

What do you think would happen if the country's power structure, let's say all the Epstein files get released, we prosecute, picture perfect, everything you want and the victims. Power structure is gone. What do you think the consequences of that are?

Like I said, a A lot of it is the older generation, but I think the consequences of that is you would have a totally new group of people start to get into our congresses and into our positions of leadership. I think you would have a sense of accountability. Like, okay, You can't just call up your buddy to stop prosecution. You can't just call up your buddy to have a different set of rules. I think it would start to get our country back to the founding values of what it used to be that you were in public service for public service. It would be a reset for America.

Well, I mean, when we talk about hundreds of people that are the abusers, I think you said hundreds, right?

Either direct abusers or trafficked or covered up.

How many people? I don't know if you have any more insight than I do. Probably you.

You've studied this so deep based on your stuff. The only insights I have that you may not have, I don't how many survivors you've talked to or survivor's lawyers. But my information that I've been repeating to you is what's coming from survivors, from survivor's lawyers.

Okay. Do you have any indication of how many people are in politics or?

Quite a few. I don't know how many are still in power, but I know there were politicians who were involved, people in politics who went to Epstein's Rape Island, who engaged in the trafficking women. I think there were a lot of people in New York in finance, and there were people in politics that were caught up in this. Now, they're probably formal politicians by now, but it was a group of people who didn't think even it was anything wrong. They just thought this is their gratification. It's like they're powerful, they get this, they've conquered, and they're going to exploit these girls, and no one's going to touch them. The other thing is that they're ruthless. Like most Americans, one statistic I read, which surprised me, is most Americans end up living 15 miles away from their mom. Most people don't travel that far. And they settle down, whether it's their rural community, factory town, place where they grew up. And you look at this Epstein class and these people, and they're like, I'm in Davos. I'm in Britain. I'm flying all over the world. Where Where would we be? It's Silicon Valley, New York. Let's go to Epstein's Rape Island.

It's just ruthless. They're not people going to church every week. They're not going to a synagogue or a temple. They're not going to the barbecues. They're not in their PTAs. That's part of what the country has lost. When our founders envisioned democracy, they envisioned it, the power with people in community. Now, if you're in one of those communities, so you're like the Little League coach who everyone loves, and you say, Okay, I want to run for Congress. What chance do you have if one of these multimillionaires or billionaires moves into your district and says, No, I want to run for Congress. I'm going to put in $10 million on TV. Who do you think is going to get elected?

The billionaire.

And that's the problem. It's like the people, the money has so skewed it. The people who are just like, Decent. Okay, maybe you don't want the Little League coach being President of the United States. Okay, President of the United States, you've got to know a lot of stuff, and I want someone who really understands everything. But there are 435 people in Congress. I just want people who love the community, care about the kids, care about things, have good values. I don't need every person to have built a ton of wealth and values. And you look at Congress, how many people are like that or just from the community? It's all people who, including It may be. You have to raise money. It's a game that is so rigged against ordinary people who just love their community and want to serve their community. That's a sad thing. That's not how it was intended to be.

Well, how did you get in there?

I've lost twice. My story, I grew up a son of immigrants. I was born in Philadelphia in our bicentenary. I went to public school, graduated over $100,000 in debt, fascinated with Silicon Valley, went out there. While you were serving in Iraq, I ran against a powerful incumbent member of Congress, Democrat, who had voted for the war in Iraq. I thought it was a terrible mistake. I ran against an incumbent in my own party. He was a Holocaust survivor, someone I respect. But people said, You're going to kill your career. How can you run against this guy? It was the first anti-Irak war campaign in the entire country, and I got killed. He got 71%, I got 19%. But I thought I was right. I kept staying at it.

You were right.

I kept at it. Then Obama won, and that's when I got my break because I had worked on his very first campaign when he was a professor at University of Chicago, and I was a student there. I had knocked on some doors, and so I got to go work for him at the commerce department. Then I came back and I said, Okay, let me give it one more try. And I lost again. Why did I lose twice? Because I didn't know all these rich people. I didn't have a machine. I wasn't related to Nancy Pelosi. Nancy Pelosi endorsed against me three times. When I ran all three times in California. California is a machine state. It's like you got to know the ends. I never had anyone there. I moved there from Pennsylvania. I was a son of immigrants. I didn't have wealthy people, parents. I said, I'm very proud of them. They have a middle class life. Then I ran the second time, lost. The third time, I said, Okay, I'll try one last time, and I won. Every time I go into Congress, it's one of the reasons I think I have a little bit of guts because I wasn't supposed to get there.

There was not some destiny of Rokana is going to go become a Congress. I'm a Hindu faith, Indian-American, came from a middle class background, lost twice before I won. Every day I was like, I'm going to make the most of it. I'm not going to I'm trying to do something because it was a miracle that I got to Congress, and I want to change something and do something for the country.

It's a good story.

It's a true story.

Back to the tax issue. I'm just curious. Do you guys run models or anything like that? What if you lowered the taxes and attracted more people to Silicon Valley? Maybe some of the people that left and went to Austin. Have you thought about that. That would probably bring more tax money in than actually raising the taxes.

Well, that's the theory of the Laffer Curve or Rebragan. I mean, I disagree with some of it. The main thing, though, I'll answer your question. Main thing I think that attracts people to Silicon Valley, the AI revolution, is all the AI talent. Ai talent is in two places. In China, one-third of the AI talent is there, and it's in Silicon Valley. And that's what Jensen said at NVIDIA. Why are they there? Why aren't they in Austin or in Florida? Because all the AI researchers, the AI talent is in Silicon Valley. Now, I think it's a balance. Obviously, if you move the rates too high, everyone will leave. But they're putting aside how you do it. If you're an ordinary person, you're making money, you're paying your tax, you're paying income tax, or you're paying capital gains tax, the The challenge is if you made a billion dollars, you're a billionaire, you may never have to pay an income tax, you're not getting income, and you may never sell your stock. You're not realizing capital gains. You may be borrowing against this money, and you're living your life and you're not paying tax. How do you get at that?

Now, some people have said one proposal, which is a reasonable one, is if someone borrows against their assets, tax that. If they're doing their their lifestyle. But I think one of the things people feel is like, if you made all this money, you should be paying the same tax as a secretary or a bus driver or someone in the military. That's what Warren Buffet said. We can discuss how to do it, but that's the feeling of unfairness people have. It's not like they want to suck it to the rich. It's just that they want them to pay the same percentage as someone who's a teacher.

What makes me I think of that is you see all these states going tax-free. Tennessee is one of them.

Are you guys tax?

We're a tax-free state.

No income tax.

No income tax. No... Unearned income tax.

But you have high property taxes or no? No.

We have a high sales tax. Okay. Well, I don't know if it's high by your standards, but it's just under 10%. But by making, and I don't know if we're 100% unearned income tax-free yet. If it's not, it's like a stair That thing goes down. But I mean, Tennessee went tax-free, and there are more Californians living here now. I'm not joking, and this isn't like a thing, but there are more. A lot of neighborhoods, at least here in Franklin, 60% of the people are from California and the neighborhoods.

Do they like them? Do they like Californians here or no? What's that? Do the folks down here like the Californians?

I don't know. No comment. But there was a lot of concern around COVID time, but I think a lot of that has died down now because it's brought a hell of a workforce, and it's overpopulated. Around here, but it's brought in a lot of business and a lot of the infrastructure has flourished as well. So that's good to see. But what I'm saying is we've got all these people from California, New York, Michigan moving in here. The state is growing, I believe, 20% year after year since COVID.

Look for Tennessee.

But then you look at Florida. Florida is just going, I mean, this place doesn't even compare to what's going on down there, another tax-free state. I'm just curious. When you guys are thinking about raising taxes, are you looking at what the other states are and are you seeing the draw that they're getting from states with higher taxes.

I grant that, that there are people who go to Florida for lower taxes or Texas. But you look at some of the things that California has done well. We had five a lot of laureates out of the UC system. So that's because of a lot of funding in the UC system. We got great higher education. We've got great community colleges. We have invested in a lot of health care for people in the state, and the health care costs are far lower for many people than in Texas. Now, we've screwed up housing. We don't build enough. Austin and Texas does that a lot more. I think when Gavin ran, he promised that we would build 3. 5 million houses, and we built 120,000 houses. So I'm not going to defend California on housing. We've got to have less restrictive zoning. I'm a yimby guy. Let's build. And I think that we need to look at places like Austin or other parts of the country that have built to be able to build more housing. But this idea that if you just need to be low tax, low government, I just philosophically disagree with that model. My view is if you have investments in community colleges, in trade schools, in public schools, in health care, that is a high functioning society where you can build wealth, where you can build wealth for every family.

I just I don't want the shot in America that I had as a son of immigrants. I got to go to a good public school. I didn't have to worry about going to a doctor. I got to live in a safe community. I couldn't hit for anything in baseball. They always said, Bad Bats, ninth, watch the bun. But I got to play. I got to go to the Philly's games. I had a great childhood. On my street, there were kids of electricians and plumbers. There was a kid of someone who was a big shot vice president as a Company. That guy had the pool, and we all used to go to that house in the afternoons. But the country, they didn't give me a lot, but they gave me enough. My parents, they said, Ro, you won the lottery. You were born in America. Go work hard. Go make something of yourself. Learn about the country's history. One of the things I never understand is folks who say, Don't learn English. My mom used to sit at the kitchen table with note cards of every big English word, and she was convinced that you had to know every word in the English language to make it in America.

See, that's the spirit I want in this country. Yeah, you got to work with everything you have, hard work. You got to love this country. This is the greatest country in the world. You got to love the history, appreciate the sacrifice of everyone who fought from the Revolutionary War to the World War II, to fought for civil rights. Understand how great the country is, but give a shot to everyone. That's the same shot I had. That's what I want. I really do. And we don't have that right now.

I'm not going to disagree with you. We're winding up down the interview here, but I just want to say that now that I'm coming out of the tribalized, whatever, sci-op that I fell into, and I think just about everybody in the country has fallen into, you know what I'm realizing? The more Other people on the other side of the fence that I talk to, like yourself, we all want the same fucking thing. We just have different roadmaps how to get there.

And that's not a bad thing, right? Because let's say it was just like, Roe gets to run America. No one is saying, Are you wasting the money? Are people are you going to move away? Are you actually going to help the kids you want to help? That wouldn't be good. And let's say it was just someone saying, Okay, I just don't want to waste any money. Don't I don't want to spend anything. And I was like, Yeah, but what about building those public schools and factories? That wouldn't be good. What makes this country work or has made it work is like having people on all sides challenge each other, and then we get through a common understanding and good. And what's not working in this country is We're busy launching ad hominem attacks on each other, dunking on each other without having actual debate.

It's not constructive criticism or productive criticism. It's just tribalism, and it's not going I don't anywhere. What I meant is you care about people and I care about people, and we want the best for people, but it's just different avenues how to get there. People You guys, especially, have got to start figuring out how to work out these problems, man.

I'm getting you to join me. I don't think you rolled it out. I don't think you rolled it out.

You will not see my ass on the floor of the house. I can guarantee you that. But, bro, I really appreciate what you're doing. I know what it's like to go against the grain, and I applaud you. Good job for doing that. People, what you're doing right now with the Epstein stuff, That's how you're going to get the win that you're asking, how do we get this place back? Accountability from that would be a great start. It may be the only start we need to get things moving in the right direction. But I do want to ask you, if you could recommend three people for the show, who would they be?

Thomas Massey, of course, who's an interesting person and really smart and courageous. Have you had Marjorie on, Taylor Greene?

I haven't. I think I should have her on.

Yeah, she missed her career for it. I mean, these are just because we're talking about the Epstein files. But let The guy, Dario Amadeh, at Anthropic. Actually, you know you should have him. Have you had Jensen on from NVIDIA?

I've tried to get him.

I'll talk to him. I know him well. He's in my district. I'll tell him he should come on this show because he's one of the great innovators of our time, and he's humble, and he just understands technology and where we're going in an incredible way.

Man, I would love to do that.

It'd be a great conversation.

Yeah, it would be. Man, please connect me. That would be amazing. I got one. Yeah. Can you give me AOC?

I'd love to get it. I'll talk. Have you had Bernie?

No.

Would you do Bernie?

Yeah, I'll take him, too.

I'll talk to both of them. Perfect. Thank you. I'll tell you who else are big progressives. They're obviously two of them. Have you had Mamdani?

I haven't.

Would you talk to Mamdani?

I would talk to just about anybody. So yes, I would love that, too.

I think to the extent you have people on both sides, I think that's great. The thing I admire about you, respect about you, why I came all the way down is because you take on power. You're willing to speak truth to power. And you were doing that on Epstein, like I said before, I did. And you're against the grain in taking on orthodoxes. And to me, what we don't want in this country is more of the same. It's like people are sick of the status quo.

Yeah. I'm with you.

Ro, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate this.

It's a pleasure.

Thank you. Cheers.

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