Transcript of RIHC: Disney's Legacy, with Bob Iger

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Hello, everybody.

Welcome to this very special Rest is History bonus episode with the head of Disney, Bob Iger. Now, Tom, normally our bonus episodes are only for members of our much loved Rest is History Club. But this one is a little bit different, isn't it? Yeah. So this week we've done two episodes on Disney. We looked at the man himself and we looked at Disneyland. And also, of course, if you're a member of the club, you would have got to listen to the Coda, to our epic series on Nelson, where we talked about what happened to Lady Emma Hamilton after Nelson's death. But in this special bonus episode, we are with Bob Iger, and we are discussing with him Walt Disney's legacy with the man who now runs Disney. So a very unusual bonus episode for us. A bonus, bonus episode, in fact. Hope you enjoy it. So, Bob, here we are. Amazing setting, stage one here at Burbank. And we've just come from Walt's office, which you showed us. And you're one of, I guess, really three people in the majority of of Disney's history who've run the company. I mean, no offense, but you're not going to be running it forever.

No offense taken.

That's good.

I hope I'm not.

So what do you think? We talked a lot about Wolf's legacy. What do you think your legacy will be when you look back on your time as the custodian of this amazing, well, the captain, this fantastic ship?

Yes, I think about this often, actually. I think because of the company's place in the world, I think the running the company has a special responsibility of sorts to maintain Disney's position in the world as a beloved company, as an admired company, as a company that entertains really the world, everyone, of all ages and from all different walks of life. I think more than anything else, I would want to be known as someone who was given the keys to this kingdom, so to speak, and quite a kingdom it is, and that I brought it to a place that even Walt would be proud of. What that means is more great storytelling to a larger audience, more innovation, more risk-taking, more really creation of happiness. It's really that simple. At one point, I thought, Well, okay, you're now running Disney. What's the most you want out of it? Well, don't screw it up, but it's much more than that. I really have been mindful of the duty that I feel has been handed to me to make it even better than it's ever been.

And what do you think the years ahead hold for Disney? Because you've been at the forefront of so much technological change, going back to, well, effectively inventing animation, as we were talking about earlier, but also you're a haven't been rooted in history. So how do you think Disney and your successors will navigate that?

I think you would both probably agree. It's hard to project 50 years ahead about anything, really, because the world is changing so rapidly in such profound ways. And as I think about the future, one, I would hope that my successors would be respectful of our past and well aware of the values that really created the value of the company in the first place and carry them forward, but not let anything that's been done in the past get in the way of bringing the company into the future. That's really constant innovation, constant exploration, constant essentially desire to reinvent or to invent, even. More than anything else, that's what I'd want. But I think we do occupy a place in the world as great storytellers, perhaps may be the greatest. And I would hope that that position would continue for years and years, decades ahead.

And talking of great storytellers, obviously, we're very out of character, Tom. It's not to talk about ourselves in this context. So how did you get into the rest of this history, could I ask?

Well, actually, a colleague of mine here at Disney, Christina Shaki, who was our Chief Communications Officer and as a history buff, I think, recommended initially. We share an interest in non-fiction, particularly books about history, and she was the first that suggested I listen to it. I think during COVID, it served a great purpose. I went for many walks and like to listen to a variety of different things, podcasts and music. And it was just a wonderful way to occupy time in what was obviously a pretty tricky time of our lives.

And are there particular subjects from history that have really fired your imagination?

This is a commercial for The Rest is History, I guess.

We're all in favor of that.

What I love about it is that, one, it gives me the ability to tap into things that I've already been interested in and that I know a little bit about, and you teach me more. But you also introduced me to subjects that I wouldn't have been even curious about. The recent one Marie Antoinette comes to mind. On the other hand, I was always fascinated with the Titanic, and your multi-partner on the Titanic filled in so many blanks for me and created so much more context. I also am an aficionado of certainly American history, particularly American presidents. The assassination of Lincoln comes to mind as one that I was particularly interested in. One that I recently listened to about Reagan and the attempt on his life. I also found interesting. Looking back, I think, in 1968 and Nixon, and the anti-Vietnam movement. Of course, Custer, which was one of the all-time greats. Is that over yet? I don't know.

One hundred and 33 parts. Yeah. Still going strong.

He eventually died, fortunately, I guess. Yeah.

But then we still carried on after he died. To give you a sense of how the rest of this history worked, this is not a production process that I would recommend at Disney. We were originally scheduled to do one episode, which would be 55 minutes. There was a point at which we'd done about eight or nine. Theo and Tabi, our producers, left their mics on, and I could hear them bitterly complaining that the series had now swollen to about 10 hours. Because I think originally, we were going to do the entire history of Native Americans in four episodes. That just proved impossible. It did prove impossible. Yeah, not a model for this new blambers. It would be rather difficult. Would you have any areas of history or themes that you would particularly like us to explore?

I've studied I did and read a lot about Churchill, and I know you've touched on Churchill here and there, but I don't think you've ever done a full birth to death of Churchill.

We've done a young Churchill, but we have been talking about carrying his life forward, haven't we? Our competing impressions of Churchill. I think that's what the public really wants.

He was maybe a larger than life figure to Americans, too. At least Americans born when I was born. I was born in 1951. He was not only very much alive, but very much active in politics still. I still remember him coming to the United States for the funeral of John F. Kennedy and thinking, here's a man that was born, I believe in Victoria, in England, attending the funeral of a man who was one of the youngest presidents ever elected. I just remember thinking about that span of history.

We did a series on the assassination of JFK and looking at his early life. I hadn't properly appreciated the way in which he was knitted in to the world of high society in Britain. He knew Churchill before the war. His sister married someone who then married a Mitford. Is that right? I can't remember exactly.

His father was ambassador. He was then to the Court of St. James. Also had a thing or two to say about the rise of Nazism, which is now I know that's something that you've also covered.

Yeah, that's right. That's something we're always asked by our Restes History Club members, our beloved members of the Restes History Club. They always ask us, Tom, who would you like to have dinner with from history? Bob, it would be remiss of us not to ask you. If you could have anybody from history for dinner, you could take them to Disneyland and have dinner with them. Who would it be?

It would have to be Walt Disney. Yes. I think about it often. People always ask me, what would Walt think? It's interesting, too, because one of the things that was problematic for the company after Walt died so suddenly in 1966 is the company spent so much time asking that question, what would Walt do or what would he think? So I'm not really interested in turning to him for advice, per se, but I would be more interested in showing him what's become of the great company that he founded. And I wouldn't mind a bit of a report card. Perhaps it's cocky of me to think that he would give me all A's.

Which of the rise do you think he'd be most impressed by?

Well, I know because you've done a little studying of Walt. He never even considered them rides. They were all stories to him. They were experiences. He wasn't building rides. And many of the, not just traditions, but values that he created and essentially built, we followed basically through on essentially either his instructions or his vision. So when we create attractions, we try to tell stories when we create attractions. Even when we create restaurants and hotels, there's a story behind it. And in particular, I'd love to show him what we built that's derived from Star Wars mythology. We call the Lands Galaxy's Edge. There's one in Florida and one in his beloved Disneyland. By the way, they're billion-dollar lands. And they not only tell great stories, but as he really demonstrated back when he built Disneyland in the '50s into the '60s, he used technology to make those stories as compelling as possible in physical form, which is not easy. And these His attractions in Galaxy's Edge, there are two main attractions, are an unbelievably perfect example of the blend of great technology with great storytelling in the physical world. I'd love to for him to see that.

And very expensive He loved spending enormous amounts of money on achieving his films.

Well, yes, I guess he spent loads of money in what he did. I'm not sure that he ever thought. It was always to him, in my opinion, about, How can I tell this story better? Or how can I tell a great story? And I don't think he even asked what it will cost.

No. And that's why poor Roy was, Oh, no. You've done what? You've bought what?

Yeah. By the way, I know that I should admit this too publicly, but often when we dream up ideas here. The first question we ask ourselves is not how much will it cost. It's, can we make it great? And then eventually you get to the, well, what is this going to cost? And does it make sense? Because we're trying to serve shareholders as well as customers.

But that is a Walt Disney inheritance, isn't I mean, that was very much his approach.

It is. I think, actually, if you ask what everything is going to cost before you make everything or even think about making something, then you end up not making a lot that you should have made.

So that's the same with Chatham High Street. Very much the Chatham High Street vibe. So on the storytelling front, are there stories that you would have loved to have been able to tell during your tenure at Disney but weren't able to? Are there any that got away What stories that you would like Disney to tell in the future?

That's an interesting question. I've really not thought about what it is we haven't done. We're always dreaming about what it is we can do. And if you look at my tenure in this role, I'm very proud of the array of great stories that we've been able to tell, some through acquisition of companies, starting with Pixar in 2006. I think about the wonderful stories those artists and storytellers have told over the years, from Inside Out and Up to Coco and I could go on and on. And then, of course, there was Marvel and the stories we've told there. Obviously, Black Panther and Avengers stand out. And then ultimately buying Lucasfilm from George Lucas in 2012 and continuing basically the mythology that he created, which I think should be considered among the greatest mythology created, at least in our lifetime, and telling more Star Wars tales and then buying 20th Century Fox and working with Jim Cameron on Pandora and Avatar films, for instance. And as we look ahead, there are so many stories that we're planning to tell that it's really not about what we're missing. It's how do we get all of these right? We have an unbelievable luxury of just great riches.

You missed out the Muppets.

Because I guess we do own the Muppets along the way. We're actually working on something for the Muppets. Oh, that's good news.

That's good for them. That's good news. I do like the Muppets. It's an interesting one, isn't it? Because the role that you've had and the role that Walt Disney had, there are not many analogies in history. There are people who've led empires and nation-states and whatnot. But effectively, I mean, this is a strange thing to say to somebody sitting just a few feet away from you, but you have more power than a lot of elected prime ministers, not necessarily over the day-to-day lives of people, but over people's heads, people's imaginations. Do you ever think that? Does that ever play on your mind?

Well, I certainly don't consider myself an Emperor. No, I think about the power of a great story, of course, but I don't think about us being powerful. I think about us having the luxury, and that includes both the luxury of being involved with great artists and the luxury of having the resources to tell wonderful stories to the world, and hopefully through our storytelling, to have a positive influence on the world. Certainly in today's the world, just the ability to make really billions of people happy is an incredible luxury and something that I'm very mindful of. But I don't think about it in terms of having power, except maybe the power to do good.

That's nice. That's a contrast with us, isn't it, Tom? Because we do reflect on our enormous power. Yeah, but I just want to do good. Do you? You just want to do evil. That's true. That's the difference between us. But that's the balance that makes the podcast so successful. That's the yin and yang.

By the way, in terms of story storytelling, you may both appreciate this. One of the biggest challenges we have when we tell these stories is figuring out what the villain is all about. You tell stories about villains all the time. What is motivating the villain? Why is the villain so villainous?

No one thinks they're the villain of the show. No, they don't.

We ultimately have to portray them, one, as villains, because I think people love stories about good and evil, particularly good, triumphant over evil. But telling stories where you actually explain what That is driving that villain to be so damn nasty.

Well, that's one of the fascinating things with the show, actually. With any attempt to tell a good story is to get inside the heads of people who have different assumptions from you. We did an episode about the Nazis to try to explain why they thought that they weren't the bad age. Yeah, why did they not think they were evil? It can often be a... I guess it's not unlike writing a great fictional story in that it's an act of imagination. You have to put yourself into somebody else's shoes. That's one of the fascinating... It's one of the things that history and fiction have in common, I suppose, the act of imagination. We'll be heading to Disneyland shortly, which we're very excited about, I have to say. You first saw Disneyland, I guess, on TV. You were growing up in New York, Oceanside, I think it is.

I grew up in a town called Oceanside, but I lived in Brooklyn, New York, originally. That's where we had a very small black and white television. That's where I experienced Walt Disney and Disneyland for the first time in a program that ABC carried on its network.

Because that ABC connection was really important, wasn't it? To raise the money for Disneyland. What did Disneyland mean to you growing up at that point in time? I guess, paradise, utopia. Talk us through what it represented.

Walt was, as we know, not only a great storyteller, but one of the all-time great salesmen of his time. We forget that, that Another aspect of Walt's talent was his salesmanship. He decided that not only to raise the money, but also to sell the product, he should have a television program. He licensed to ABC, a program that essentially told the story of building Disneyland. Here I was as a three, four, five-year-old watching on a small black and white TV. Walt not only talk about building Disneyland, but watching it on the program actually rise from the ground in Orange County, California. I remember it being incredibly aspirational. I think actually it served that purpose to hundreds of millions, now billions of people around the world seeing it, which seemed like something that never existed before, a form of entertainment that he really invented. I can't wait to show it to you because it is not an amusement park at all. It's a concept unto itself.

The idea of filming an experiment and a project that could so easily have gone wrong, I mean, that is expressive of Cajones.

Yes.

Of an order that he repeatedly displays played throughout his career.

Yes. I admire so much about Walt. I'd say one of the things I admire the most is his guts. I won't use the term that you use because I'm a Disney guy. I'm more G-rated than perhaps you guys are. But he had unbelievable guts. Actually, more than guts, it was courage. He had a vision. He was almost always convinced that his vision was right, and he had the confidence to attempt to really to execute it. That's both confidence in the ability to basically build successfully, but also the ability to look really above and beyond the naysayers and those that said it can't be done. If you said something couldn't be done, Walt said about to do it. It was that simple. I watched this ambition actually almost jump out of the screen. I remember it as a kid, and you couldn't help but want to go there because, again, it was so new. It seemed so big, so fresh, just almost extraordinary. Actually, it's interesting. I was thinking back, bringing Disneyland to Shanghai. So here we were in the earlier part of really this century, wanting to plant a Disneyland flag of sorts in China and thinking about not just what we would build, but whether it would become the beacon to people all around China that Disneyland was to Americans in the '50s.

It's interesting. That actually has happened that a lot of people in China are well aware of Disneyland. It serves as the number one tourist attraction in Shanghai. Millions, tens of millions of people have visited it, which is tiny compared to the total population of China. But as we have done research, we've discovered that people's desire to visit. And by the way, we open Shanghai, Disneyland on national television in Shanghai, just That's what Walt had done with Disneyland in 1955. Learning from Walt, not just how to market, but how to ignite an interest. It's such an interesting entertainment experience that when you see it, even in on the screen, you almost feel you have to visit.

So when we're going to Disneyland, what should we be looking out for? What are you most looking forward to showing us?

Well, first of all, you have to look at how other people are experiencing it. You'll see wonder on their faces. You'll see a rush to get through the gates and get to their favorite attraction. You'll see children and their parents and grandchildren and friends and groups of people from all different collections of society walking in with with a sense of wonder on their faces. Look at the people first. I still, by the way, and I don't know how many times I've been to one of our parks, it's the first thing that I experience, the first thing that hits me, really, when I walk in is, My My goodness, look how these people are enjoying themselves. It's an incredibly powerful feeling to have. So watch that. You'll see immediately things that were absolutely from Walt's vision, a castle in Main Street and things that are obviously referenced from Older America. There's a lot of history there. But I think you should also look at how much we've continued to invent and expand. As he was fond of saying, as long as there's curiosity left in the world, Disneyland will never be finished. Can I ask?

I've never been, but the vision of the future was important to Disneyland. So has the vision of the future evolved over time?

Well, the vision of the future is harder today. Walt's vision of the future, and I'm envious of him doing this in the '50s when so much of future stories really had not been told, at least in physical form. I can remember growing up in the '50s and being fascinated by Sputnik, and ultimately the early age of space travel with both the Russians and then the American space program. I remember them demonstrating a telephone which had a television. Unbehaviable. So it was like, Well, did you imagine making a call and seeing the person on the other end. And I think at some point, maybe there might have been a reference to microwave ovens. Well, you guys are younger than I am. I remember a day when they didn't exist, but you probably don't. And so it's harder today to tell the story of Tomorrowland because I think in technology has done this so much of what is around the corner. Now, we have AI, which maybe that's even endless in terms of what the future looks like. I think it just gets harder.

The future of a Disneyland itself continue to evolve, I guess, more attractions, constant innovation. Having been to Disney World, one of the things that struck me thinking about the generations of people going, is there's an element of nostalgia to it, too, isn't there? It's a place of safety and security and old-fashioned values to some degree. I guess, will Disneyland continue to try to strike that balance between those two things?

Yes. Look, the most recent park that we built Shanghai, which opened almost 10 years ago, has a seven dwarf attraction as a for instance. The Pirates of Caribbean, there's a pirate's attraction, which Walt really conceived of in the '60s at Disneyland. And there is a Tomorrow Land. It's slightly different. So everything that we build today has reference to our own past, and I think carries forward basically the entertainment value of the original concept. But we have this incredible luxury of even more stories to tell as a company. So you'll see Marvel and you'll see Star Wars and you'll see Avatar and a lot of great Pixar stories, including Toy Story land. And we're building a monster's land in Florida. So it's almost endless in terms of what we can build. But I think what you will appreciate is while the past is present, the present is present. And We're hinting at a future. We're building a... Currently, actually, we haven't started building, but we're conceiving of the park we're going to build in Abu Dhabi. By the way, a part of the world we have never really planted a flag in. We're extremely excited about it.

And this will be a park that utilizes technology at almost every level to design and ultimately to build and then for people to experience. And that's incredibly exciting for our imagineers.

As you expand, do you feel that Disney becomes becomes, and this is a strange thing to say, becomes less American? Do you think... I mean, certainly under your stewardship, Disney has become this genuinely global entity. I mean, I'm not saying you're in danger of losing your Americanist because I'm sure you never will. But do you think the perception of Disney as American. It feels less American to international consumers than it would have done 30 years ago.

It's not purposeful on our part to become less American. It is purposeful on our part to become more inviting to the world and to be mindful of cultural distinctions and cultural really passion, really. And so, for instance, when we were building Shanghai, The brief, the design brief that I gave to the team was, let's build something that is authentically Disney, but distinctly Chinese, which in the design process and the build process, we thought about, it was our mantra, because we wanted to build something that was very much Disney to them, and they had an idea in mind of what a Disneyland would be, but something that was extremely respectful of their own culture so that they could feel as though it were theirs, not And I don't think it's viewed as an American in any way. Again, it's more purposeful to fit in in a respectful way.

Like letting the French drink wine.

Yes. I think there were lessons learned there in building Paris as you call it, the Miracle on the Marn, which I know is referenced to something in World War I. That would be such a great ride. But there, I think there were learnings about entering a country and a culture with a little bit more sensitivity and respect. Actually, we took those learnings seriously. As we designed Shanghai, we made sure that we didn't make mistakes that had been made in the past.

Can I ask? I was just reading about the building of Disneyland's, and Walt, despite having an excellent mustache himself, forbid people with facial hair to work there. Are you still pognophobic in your attitudes to your workforce, or can you have a beard and a mustache?

Yes. I don't know whether I'm afraid or proud that I'm the one that changed that. I think he was... Well, I really don't know exactly what he had in there, except I think he wanted... I think he probably wanted his cast members, we call them. They're all performing on a stage of sorts to be very clean-looking and maybe very American, I don't know. I don't think there's anything un-American, by the way, about facial hair. Certainly not today. But as I think in the 20 years ago when I became CEO, it was clear that banning facial hair actually limited the number of people we could hire.

Yeah, you couldn't have done Custer World.

Yes, Custer had a hell of a mustache, right?

Well, the ride I would love to see is a ride based on the generals of the First World War. You can have some of those Russian generals with their enormous mustaches. Mustash adventure. Yeah.

This is why you guys do the rest of history and we build team parks, right?

I suspect it probably is.

I thought it was just practical for us to allow facial hair. We still have grooming standards, by the way. We haven't completely abandoned our desire to show up looking good.

Very like us at the Rest of His History, Tom. Very like. Bob, thank you so much for giving us this time. But the torture for you is not over yet because you're taking us-Fresh excitement is to come. Yeah, you're taking us to Disneyland. I have to say, I cannot wait. But thank you so much.

Well, you're welcome. It's not torture for me, obviously. If I could spend every day at Disneyland, I would be a very happy fellow.

Thanks very much for listening. As you heard in this episode, after that interview, Dominic and I went to Disneyland, and you can watch footage of that visit and our tour of Walt Disney's office on YouTube now. Simply click the link in this episode's description or head to YouTube and search for the rest is history. Yes, I really advise people to do that because they'll see the greatest moment in the history of The Rest is History, which is our producer, Theo Youngsmith, being detained by stormtroopers at Disneyland. And you would expect Theo to respond to this in a in a very swashbuckling and macho manner. But actually, as you'll see, if you watch the film, his actual reaction is very different. Luke Skywalker, he was not. He was not. Exactly, yes. A more C3PO, I would say. So listen, we will be back next week with an extraordinarily swashbuckling and exciting series on the life of the young Elizabeth I. So if you're a member of the Restless History Club, you'll actually get all four episodes of that series on Monday. The rest of you, my I'm afraid, will have to wait. And a final reminder, if you want to see Tom enjoying himself on the Pirates: The Caribbean ride and Theo Youngsmith being arrested at Galaxy's Edge, then click the link in this episode's description or head to YouTube and search for the rest his history.

And believe me, you will not regret it. Bye-bye. Goodbye. Hello, I'm David Ulishoga. And I'm Sarah Churchwell. This week on Journey Through Time, we are exploring the story of the gunpowder plot of 1605, the story of how a small group of Catholic engaged in what would have been the most devastating terrorist attack in all of British history.

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The series will tell the story of treason and traitors, of a group of men led by the charismatic Robert Catesby, who believed that the only option left to them to win their rights as Catholic was the violent destruction of the Stuart State. We look at the story of Guy Fox, the nation's most famous traitor, from his recruitment to becoming the plot's fall guy and ultimately being tortured and killed.

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