Transcript of 615. Disneyland: The Modern American Utopia

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Today on The Rest is History, we are visiting Disneyland, and we are exploring the backstory of theme parks because, Dominic, you love a theme park, don't you?

I actually do because I'm an adrenaline junkie, as you know, Tom. So I really enjoy doing this episode. Actually, the deeper we went into it, the more fascinating it is. So you know the first roller coasters? Tsarist Russia, the age of Catherine the Great, surfs building great hills of ice and aristocrats going tobogganing down them. And then you get into the 19th century. You have gravity switchback railroads, people traveling on these mad railways against a painted background. But there's other predecessors to Disneyland, aren't there? So I know you love a Voxel Pleasure Garden.

Well, yes, because it's nice I just wanted to know that ultimately the origins of Disneyland lay in South London, where I live. That was a revelation for me.

Yeah. Fountains, fireworks, houses made of glass, all that thing. So that's all great. And then we end by talking about Disneyland itself. A mad story, actually, when it opened in 1955. Basically, Walt Disney faced one of history's most difficult and most perilous dilemmas. He only had enough water to have drinks, fountains, or flushing toilets. And only on this podcast will people find out what he chose.

It's an extraordinary episode. Great fun, and we hope you enjoy it.

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I, the Prime Minister of the Soviet Union, have come to you as a guest, but I have just been told I cannot go to Disneyland. Why not, I asked. Is it by any chance because you now have a rocket launching pad there? No, they told me. You cannot go there because, just listen to this, the American authorities cannot guarantee your safety.

What?

Has cholera or plague broken out there that I might catch it? Or has Disneyland been seized by bandits who might destroy me? But your policemen are such strong men. Surely they could deal effectively with such bandits. I said I should like to go to Disneyland just the same and see how Americans spend their leisure, but I am told it is impossible. This development causes me bitter regret, and I cannot but express my disappointment. That, amazingly, was not a South African, although I may have given you that impression. It was, in fact, a Russian, and specifically, Nikita Khrushchev, Premier of the Soviet Union, who was speaking at 20th Century Fox in Los Angeles on the 19th September, 1959. He was halfway through the first state visit ever made by a Soviet leader to the United States. It was a massive media circus. When he came to LA, he wanted Hollywood, the work. So he met Gary Cooper Elizabeth Taylor and Marilyn Monroe, all the stars. But what his wife, Nina, wanted was to go to Disneyland. Because, Dominic, Nina had been a huge fan of Disney films since the 1940s, and she'd specifically requested to visit the park, and Walt Disney had agreed to meet them personally, escort them around, but it gets canceled.

Why?

So it's slightly unclear, actually. Some accounts say that there were security concerns in the Los Angeles police. Some say that there were Soviet security concerns, some that the visit was canceled on the orders of the US State Department. Whatever the truth, and it's really hard to get at the truth, Khrushchev was furious about it.

And upset.

In his memoir, Khrushchev remembers in the late '60s, I think it is, early '70s. He talks about this. He draws attention to it, and he says, The visit to Disneyland was canceled because the American authorities were worried about right-wing anticommunist demonstrations. Of course, the irony is that Walt Disney himself, at this point, he was right wing and anti-communist. He hated Bolsheviks. Yeah, but he was prepared to welcome Khrushchev and show him around. Anyway, the visit was canceled. I thought it was a fun way to set up an episode about Disneyland.

If challenging for someone When you can't do a Russian accent.

Exactly, which is also an attraction. Because this is 1959. Disneyland has only been open for four years. But even at this point, to somebody like Christoff, the Premier of the Soviet Union, Disneyland is an extraordinary draw. It's a symbol of America. As he says, I want to go and see how the American people spend their leisure time. So even at this point in 1959, four years old, it's a symbol of America, of childhood fantasy, of small town, nostalgia, and of mid-century futurism, all the things that we associate with Disneyland today. And people who think, Gosh, a history podcast, really. I mean, Disneyland is a project conceived in the 1940s, built in the 1950s, in the early Cold War. It's still a hugely important place. It's one of the most visited places on the planet. So if you look at the stats, almost 800 million people have been to Disneyland in the 70 years that it's been open. And if you ask, I would guess most children in the world, most people under the age of, let's say, I don't know, 15, 13 or something, what's the one place you would most like to go if you could go anywhere?

Disneyland would probably, I guess, top of the list.

I don't think so. Hadrian's Wall.

Yes. There was some interesting chat when we were at Disneyland with your daughter about your childhood holidays. I think it's fair to say the scars are still quite raw. Anyway, I think it's a really good subject for a history podcast for three reasons. So first of all, because it's a great window into 1950s America, into the anxieties and ambitions of Eisenhower's America when it is built. Secondly, I think it's an opportunity for us on the rest of history to dig into the history of things that most people probably don't think of as historical artifacts, which are to say, parks, carousels, rides, the first roller coasters under Catherine the Great.

I mean, oh, so Maybe that's where Chris Jeff, wanted to go. It's a great Russian invention.

A great Russian invention, exactly. Well, we'll come back to this. And of course, Disneyland itself is a remarkable thing. For me, and we'll discuss this in the second half, it is one of the most influential architectural creations of the mid-20th century. Of course, because of its hold on the imagination of so many people, it has become a massive cultural enterprise in its own right, just like Snow White or Mary Poppins or any of the films, Tom, that you talked about in the previous episode. To explore where it comes from, let's get back to Disney himself, the guy who you described so brilliantly in Monday's episode. After the Second World War, as we discussed, really, some of the fun has gone out of the Disney studio. The studio, the animators, they've been decimated by the war, and they never really recover. The great biography by Neil Gabley, he talks about how in the 1940s and early 1950s, there's a real sense of Disney losing interest and losing confidence in his animated films. He's quoted as saying to one of his friends, We are through with caviar. From now on, it is mashed potatoes and gravy. In other words, everything is going to be a little bit cheaper, a little bit blander, just not as good, basically.

Walt Disney is looking for outlets for this tinkering genius and creative enthusiasm that we described last time. And the most obvious one of these, which plays a huge part at Disneyland, and indeed at most modern day theme parks or amusement parks, is trains. So in the summer of 1948, Disney goes with his animator Wally Kimball, of course, he's called Wally.

Of course he is.

To a railroad fair in Chicago for a break. And on the way, they ride on the Santa Fe railroad, and the people find out that Walt is there, and they say, Would you like to ride in the engine and to pull the whistle cord? A very American sound, the whistle of a train. And Kimball said that after Walt had done this. He sat there staring into space, smiling and smiling. I had never seen him look so happy.

Well, do you know, Dominic, I think trains are wonderful things. And I say that as someone who has officially named a train.

You named it the Athelstan, didn't you?

The King Athelstan.

There was a brilliant photograph.

What?

Of you looking with a gaggle of sheepish, grey-haired men. There was some bishop, some priest. I always assume you're going to be hanging around with a priest. And Ed Davy, the leader of the liberal Democrats.

The local MP. And they all look like variants of you, which I thought was interesting.

I thought it was very confusing.

Yeah, but Dominic, when I actually launched the train, the King Applestand, to mark the 1100th anniversary of the coronation of King Applestand in Kingston. I was actually surrounded by-Fans? No, by men in chain armor, the local Kingston fiat. That's quite Disney as well, because there's a lot of dressing up.

Okay, well, so Disney has had his own train ride, not on the Athelstam. He goes to Chicago. This moment when he goes to this railroad fair is, I think, a transformative moment in his life. He is asked to run some of the old engines, which he does, and he loves that. But also the fair has special exhibits which are called, some people at the fair call them lands. There's a geesa, there's an Indian village, so Native American village, and there is a replica of the French Quarter in New Orleans. So something that you can see effectively at Disneyland. Anyway, he comes back and he's completely obsessed. He buys this massive train set and he fills half of a double garage with it. So he's got two trains, he's got tunnels, he's got bridges, he's got all this.

Like Rod Stewart.

Rod Stewart, exactly. Another somebody else who you've hung around with. No?

Rod Stewart? Yes, I have met him.

This is just a massive name dropping exercise this show. So then he says, well, a model train is not enough. I want a life size train. And he actually builds his own life size train in the Disney Studio Machine Shop. So by Christmas 1948, he's actually organizing test runs on the Disney sound stage of this train that he has built himself.

But I love that about him.

Yeah, it's fun.

Because we were saying in the previous episode how he wasn't interested in money. But I like to see him spending money in such a wholesome and fun way. I think if I was a billionaire, I would set up a massive train set.

So when he buys a new house in the late 1940s, a lot of Hollywood moguls would say, I'd like a massive cinema. I'll have a sex dungeon or whatever.

Would they? Where does that come from?

He says, No, I must have room for my railroad And he spends tens of thousands of dollars on this railroad with 2,500 feet of track that go around the property. And he has a 90-foot tunnel that will take the train underneath his wife's flower garden.

His wife isn't tremendously keen on this new- Yeah, she'd rather have a dungeon, frankly.

Then he decides, well, why stop there? Why stop with trains? He becomes really interested in the idea of artificial worlds. And he goes to miniature shops when he goes to Europe on holiday. To buy little miniature fixtures for his little train set. And he starts obsessively collecting furniture and even little liquor bottles and groceries and stuff like this.

But the thing that's fascinating about that is that it's such a feature of his great animations as well. The obsessive interest in bottles and pots and pans and things. I mean, he obviously loved all that.

Yeah. He's just a massive, massive collector, I think. And he wasn't Walt Disney. He'd be the person who absolutely had a head with a giant train set or a model village or something. And as always with Disney, his enthusiasm, you talked last time about him being a perfectionist. His enthusiasm runs completely out of control. So by 1950, he's basically working on this model American small town. If you remember Marceline, the place where he had grown up in Missouri, he basically wants to create this Lilliputian Marceline. And he has an idea that he could create a traveling exhibition called Disneylandia. And Disneylandia would be this idealized miniature version of an American small town, and it would have painted backdrops in the style of the hugely popular mid-century artist, Norman Rockwell. Now, Rockwell was by far the most popular painter with the masses in America in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, and so on.

More than Jackson Pollock.

Oh, yeah. Critics said, Oh, Well, Rockwell is so sentimental and so kitsch and corny and whatnot. But ordinary people loved him. And that, of course, is an interesting parallel with Disney and indeed with Disneyland. Anyway, people in the film industry, when they came to see Disney in the late '40s and early '50s, they thought he'd gone completely bonkers. They would turn up expecting to talk about films, and he'd just be messing around with miniature bottles, bottle trains and stuff. So there's the great critic of the New York Times, Bosley Crowther. Of course, he's called Bosley Crowther. He arrives and he says, I felt really sad when I saw what had become a Walt Disney, that all of his zest for invention, for creating fantasies, was going into these silly little play things and toys and whatnot.

Do you know, I don't think that Boslie Krauher can have been that great a critic if he couldn't have seen the parallels between the train set and the films.

Yeah, well, I think you're right. Actually, the fact that it's trains, I think, is really revealing and interesting, and I think it's a clue to Disneyland's appeal. Trains in the 1940s and 1950s have a slightly unusual image. People still see them as emblematic of speed and excitement and modernity. But of course, they're already being overtaken by air travel and by the car. So they are simultaneously exciting. Who doesn't like riding on a train and pulling the whistle and seeing the landscape whistling past? But at the same time, they're slightly backward-looking.

Well, they're iconic, aren't they? Of Buffalo and-Yeah, late 19th century.

The railroad. All of that. Exactly.

Casey Jones.

And I think you mentioned before Neil Gabbler's definitive, really life of Walt Disney. He sees the theme of Disney's life as a craving for total control. And by creating a little train set or a model train or an artificial world, he's creating his own private world, a world that is exciting but is also nostalgic and is a refuge from the pressures of the present.

And also, of course, the saving thing about trains is they have to stay on the tracks that have been laid down by the person who's built them. They can't just go off piece.

There's no unrulyness to a train set. A train set is perfectly ordered and harmonious. And you can see why this actually would have a wider appeal in the 1940s and 1950s. So the Second World War, with all its horrors, is only just over. By the early 1950s, the Korean War is raging at a cost of at least 36,000 American lives. A war actually is largely forgotten today, but very traumatic at the time. There's huge anxiety about communism, and the Cold War, and the shadow of the bomb. So this is the heyday of McCarthyism, of the hunt for traitors and enemies within and so on and so forth.

Which Disney is a part of.

Which Disney is a part of, exactly. At the same time, America itself, the urban and geographical fabric of America is changing so rapidly. This is the age of suburbanization of interstate highways, lots of new technology, big new corporations, lots of talk at the time about the new age of the mass man and mass bureaucracy. And the individual, the small scale, the backward-looking, the traditional All these things are being crushed by this new age of the madmen, IBM, big corporations.

And also, I suppose, cars. Yeah, of course. And I guess one of the interesting things about Disneyland is that it is one of the few places where you can't take car and you actually have to walk.

Exactly. Yeah. A lot of people there, surely, have never walked before.

They were looked exhausted.

So how did we get from there to the amusement park? Well, Disney's friends and family all have their own theories about where the idea for an amusement park came from. So his daughter, Diane, said, He used to take me to Griffith Park in LA to the merry go round at the weekend. His brother, Roy, said, Oh, I'm sure that all this came from the trains. I think that's probably wrong. I think the trains were always... I think the park was always in his imagination, and the trains are always a step towards that.

Well, it's in Pinocchio. That's what's so interesting, the fantasy Island Park.

Yeah, of course, the Pleasure Island.

Which is a nightmarish vision of a park. That's the first manifestation of a park, as far as I'm aware, in Disney's sinking, and it's a nightmare.

Walt had always enjoyed parks. So a friend of his from Kansas City said they had been to a park called Electric Park in Kansas City in the 1910s. Now, Electric Park, I looked this up, used get a million visitors a year.

God, that's a lot, isn't it?

It was nicknamed Kansas City's Coney Island. And he said, I remember going to electric park with Walt and Walt saying, Gosh, as basically a teenager, Walt saying, God, I'd love to build a park one day, wouldn't you? In Gabba's biography, he says, There's loads of occasions in the 1930s and 1940s where he mentioned to his animators, Wouldn't it be fun one day to have a little park? Maybe we could have something across the road from studio in Burbank, across Riverside Drive. We could have a train. We could have a model village. We could have a couple of rides. If people ever wanted to come and visit the studio, because Disney is becoming a household name, we'd have something to show them and something for them to have fun with. Actually, when he went to that Chicago railroad fair, he was talking about what that would look like. He was saying, well, you could have a hot dog stand, and you could have a river boat, and you could have a merry go round, and all this. By the time he comes back from this railroad fair, he's really excited. And he has a tremendous sense of mission, which I think it's the first time he's had that sense of a vision, an idealism, and an esprit de corps since working on Snow White in the late '90s.

In the 1930s. In 1951, he assembles his team and he says, Right, I want you to go out across the country and I want you to get ideas for a park. How would this work? They go to the Lincoln Museum in Chicago. They go to all sorts of colonial museums in New England. They go to all kinds of railroad and steamboat museums. They even go to a place I've actually been to, which is the Open Air Museum in Colonial Williamsburg, where everybody pretends. It's like people dress up in costume, don't they?

And talk in the oldy English.

Exactly. They talk in what they consider old English, and they bang anvils in blacksmiths' shops.

Well, that's what they did in the 17th century.

Exactly. Actually, American history is always a massive element of Disneyland's appeal. I mean, actually, even now, there's the Hall of the Presidents, and there's an animatronic Lincoln and all of this. And that's exactly how Walt always imagined it. But interestingly, he doesn't just send them to America. He sends them to Europe.

Hooray.

And in the autumn of 1951, he sends Roy Disney, his brother, to Europe. And he says, I'd like you to go to Europe and see how they do things there and investigate buying amusement rides from Europe. Now, some of our listeners may be quite surprised at that because they will think of Disneyland as quintessentially American, and they probably will think of amusement parks as quintessentially American. But this is wrong, Tom. Is it? Yeah. Disneyland is effectively European, as I will now explain.

So Euro Disney, really, it was the park coming home.

I guess so, yeah. Euro Disney, which initially wasn't very successful because it turned out their biggest market, which was in Britain. People associated the word Euro, not with cosmopolitan excitement and sophistication, but with committees of people deliberating on the length of sausages or similar.

The Maastricht Treaty ride.

Exactly.

Thrills and spells.

Jean-claude, it was a Yunker experience. An animatronic, I don't know. What's his name. Hermann Rumpuy, or whatever his name is, will now answer your questions about subsidiarity. Brilliant. Love it. All right, so let's get into the prehistory. What's the oldest park in the world? The oldest park is in Copenhagen. It's the world's longest operating amusement park. It is a place called Backen, which was originally just outside Copenhagen, to the north, I think. Back and had its first visitors in the 1580s.

So what were they going on? Marry-go-round, roller coasters?

They were not going on rides at all. They were excited by the possibility of a spring.

What way is going to look at a spring? How does that count as a theme park?

So they would go to the spring. People would go out in the spring for a day out. And everyone was very excited by this spring. They thought, Brilliant. God, it's 15: 80, there's nothing else to do. So back in the area, At various points, it's made a royal hunting ground. And then the Danish royals will say, Oh, let's throw it open again. People love that spring.

But in what way is that an amusement park?

Because so many people are going to see this spring. Why? It's attract, you get entertainers, you get musicians setting up shop there, you get people selling food. It becomes basically a place that you go on a weekend, for example, on a feast day or a fair day. You go for a day out from the city It's always there, and there's all kinds of attractions. So there might be some amusement Danish juggler. There might be a man selling a meat pie. There might be an animal, an amusement animal being tortured in some hideous manner.

Those long Danish days just flown by.

Exactly. So it becomes an escapist tourist destination.

But that's not the most famous amusement park, is it? No. In Copenhagen.

So it's still going today, but in 1843, Bakin got arrived, and this was a much more famous park, but much closer to Copenhagen, though at the time, just outside the city walls. And it's a park I've been to actually many times.

Yeah, I love it.

The Tivoli Gardens. Tivoli was developed by a former Danish army officer called Georg Kartensen. And it had lots of elements right from the beginning, from the 1840s, that are very familiar at Tivoli today, and indeed at many amusement parks today. It had flower gardens, it had a restaurant. It had cafés. It had a theater. It had a bandstand, it had fireworks displays. And the general vibe, which will be, if you've been to Tivoli, you will recognize, it's slightly exotic and Orientalist.

Because they're opening, Disney are opening a new park, aren't they? In the Gulf? Are they? Yeah. I wonder whether there will There's going to be an Orientalist vibe there.

Maybe there'll be an occidentalist vibe. That would be an interesting twist.

It would be quite a fun, wouldn't it?

Yeah. Timberframed cottages or something. Anyway, Tivoli from the beginning, had rides. So Tivoli had a merry go round and it had a scenic railway. We'll come back to the rides and the history of rides in a second. But most writers who have discussed the history of Disneyland agree that Tivoli is the single biggest inspiration. It is by far the most obvious model. And Disney sent his staff multiple times. And one of the things that makes it such an obvious model is that Tivoli, from the beginning, had a very strong fairy tale element to it. And that's down to Hans Christian Andersen. Hans Christian Andersen was a friend of Georg Cartensen. He visited Tivoli during its very first season, and he was inspired by Tivoli's Chinese pavilion to write his fairy tale, The Nightingale. And it's actually now Hans Christian Andersen rides at Tivoli, and you can't really miss his influence when you go.

Well, I mean, this is all very interesting. We've had quite a lot of America, we've had quite a lot of Denmark. But I feel what is lacking so far in this episode, no offense, is Britain.

Yeah, you're not wrong.

Surely there's some British influence. Of course there is. Isn't there?

Because We are a patriotic podcast, and I'm very pleased to tell the listeners that Disneyland is effectively British. It's a British creation because Disneyland is modeled on Tivoli, and Tivoli's original name was actually Tivoli and of Voxel. Now, the Tivoli bit alludes to the Jardin du Tivoli in Paris, a public park, a garden. But Voxel is Britain, South London, the Voxel Pleasure Gardens, the most influential pleasure park, I would say, in human history.

Well, it's great to have Voxel, which is the tube station that serves the oval on the podcast. Great to get the oval back on. The rest is history.

Right. That's the last time we'll be the oval in this podcast. So Voxel. Voxel began as the new Spring Gardens on the South bank of the Thames. The date that it opened is unclear, but it was almost certainly around the time of the restoration. In 1662, Samuel Peeps describes a visit to what he calls Fox Hall, where it had not been a great while. And he and his wife collect flowers, and he says, We had cakes and salt beef and ale, and so home again by water with much pleasure. So they've obviously been for an outing. In 1667, five years later, the great biographer and antiquarian, John Aubrey, records that the restoration era spy and double agent and inventor, Samuel Morland, built a house in the Voxel Pleasure Gardens made of looking glass and fountains very pleasant to behold. And there are all these little trace descriptions of something going on in Voxel on the south bank of the Thames in the late 17th century.

That's fun. Basically, that's the point.

Yeah, that it's fun. And people are going there for a day out. And it's hard to pin down exactly what they're going for because there aren't really detailed descriptions until the 18th century. And by the 18th century, we do have a very clear sense of this as one of London's great tourist attractions. So now it has a proper Walt Disney style entrepreneur in charge of it called Jonathan Tires. And the reason I compare him with from Walt Disney is that like Disney, Tires is a mid-market populist. So he's interested in throwing it open to as many people as possible, but with caveats. So he charges a shilling to get in. It doesn't sound like much, but I looked it up, the academic website, Measuringworth. In relative income terms, a shilling is the equivalent of about £150 today. A lot of money, but almost exactly the same as what you pay for a one-day ticket to Disneyland in Anaheim right now.

So it's keeping Riff-raff out.

It's a proper event. You don't go lightly. You go because it's a long So conceived trip, very exciting moment. And it will appeal to respectable people because the price of a shilling means you can be pretty confident there will not be the likes of the young Emma Hamilton. Correct. There will not be thieves and footpads and ruffian Yeah. And people of easy virtue.

So what is it that they've got there?

They've got musicians, they've got entertainers, there's lots of fireworks, there are Chinese lanterns. The Chinese lanterns are a huge part of this, actually. People would often comment on the excitement of walking down the darkened paths, illuminated at every turn by these lanterns.

This then inspires a theme park in Russia, in St. Petersburg. And there's a railway station next to it called Voxel. And so the Russian word for a railway station is Voxal.

Voxal. Yeah, exactly.

Amazing.

So they have more and more attractions. By the early 19th century, there are organs, there are multiple orchestras, there's a theater, there are hot air balloons. You would go and you would see high wire acts, jugglers, there'll be puppet shows. The price has now gone up to three shillings, so it's pretty expensive.

I think it's where the first giraffe is displayed in England.

Is that right? I think so. You love a giraffe? Yeah, I do. Great to get a giraffe back on the show. Dicken When it went, it features briefly in Thackerry's novel Vanity Fair, and so on and so forth. However, the temptation is always to go down market, and that's exactly what happens. So chasing profits in the middle of the 19th century, Voxels' new proprietors, they basically lost some of their respectability. They got a reputation for boredy behavior, for drinking, for late-night parties, and it ended up basically being threatened with losing its licenses, and it closed in 1859.

Well, now, I mean, you mentioned sex Dungeons. There's a club there, I think, called Dungeon or something like that.

Right. That's nice to know.

So you see, every time you drive across from North London, going down to Brixton, it always used to be there.

Great. Well, have you ever been?

No, I haven't, but I always wondered.

Right. Well, that's a lovely possible destination for a Reston's history Christmas outing.

Maybe for the Athlets stands.

Yeah, exactly. So there's one thing, obviously, that Foxhole is missing that actually back and didn't have either, as you pointed out, which is rides. Now, the thing is, I'm guessing everybody listening to this podcast has been on a ride at some point in their life, if only it's a very small child.

I think if my father is listening, he's never been on a ride, but apart from him.

Surely he's been on a roundabout or some.

I can't imagine it.

But I'm also guessing that almost nobody has ever thought, Gosh, rides have a history. Where do rides come from?

No.

Because you just take them for granted and you think of them as frivolous. Let's start with the first ride that most people ever take, the first sophisticated ride. That's normally, I would say, probably a merry-go-round or a carousel. The horse is going up and down. The word carousel French word. It originally meant this test of skill during a tournament. The claim is that you read everywhere, is that this began, this was imported from the Sarrasons during the crusades. They would ride on their horse horses, and they would basically spear with a lance a ring that was hanging from a post or a tree. It's a standard element of a tournament activity in a children's history book. And in early modern Europe, this activity evolved into a much more formalized display. So it's a little bit like dressage or something. So we know that, for example, in 1662, in the summer of 1662, Louis XIV held a big carousel, occasion, in the courtyard of the Tuileries Palace. And people were riding up and down, and they were trying to collect these rings with their lances. And to this day, that square is called, which is now by the Louver, is called the Place du Cacourcel.

The game spread, the exhibition spread in popularity. By the 18th century, people are doing it in fares all over Europe. People have developed, basically, I suspect because it's cheaper, a very primitive mechanical I mentioned. So you will sit on a a wooden horse. That wooden horse is suspended in a circle from a axis and a central pole, rather like on a modern carousel. But they are rotated, obviously not by electricity or whatever. They're rotated by animals or basically by people just pulling on a rope. So there's some poor bloke sweating profusely, pulling you while you're going round and round.

It suddenly struck me. In John Wesley's house in London, he He rode around everywhere preaching and all that stuff. And he had a mechanical horse. It was the equivalent of an exercise bike. So he'd sit in it in the morning. It would go up and down, up and down. And it would exercise his thighs and give him the strength to continue riding. So that is also part of the carousel, isn't it? That the horses go up and down. So presumably, that's where that is coming from.

Yeah. So that idea of... I mean, that's such an 18th century thing, isn't it? The idea of some mechanical contraption that you'll exercise on. And some mad inventor has developed. And you don't think of that being the ancestor of the roller coaster, Alton Towers or something, but that's exactly what it is.

No, it hadn't crossed my mind when I saw it, but now you've enlightened me.

Oh, that's wonderful.

For which many thanks.

So the first proper mechanical carousel comes from the Napoleonic Wars. And this was a creation, quite literally, of Merlin, of a man called Jean-Joseph Merlin, who was an inventor who had moved from Liège to London in the 1760s. And he was a big name at the time. I mean, he's completely forgotten today, but he was a very big name in the late 18th century. He was nicknamed the Ingenius Mechanic. And he made clocks, he made automata, robotic machines of various kinds. He made organs and pianos. He invented a self-repelled wheelchair. He invented a pedal-operated revolving tea table. And this is an amazing fact, he invented roller blades. So he was the first person to invent the line of wheels, the thin line of wheels on a shoe or boot. And he opened a mechanical museum in Hanover Square, which in the 1780s and 1790s was a very fashionable place to go for coffee. And we know from travelers' accounts, there's one from, I think, 1804, looking back at a journey he made, a German traveler in 1803. And this bloke said, I went to this place. I couldn't believe it. I went in. There was a carousel.

It was completely mechanical. You'd go in that with your coffee, and you'd sit on this horse. It would go round and round while an organ played a concerto. So that basically is the experience they're going on a merry-go-round. However, it was just a private toy. It was only for people who went to Merlin's Museum. The man who made carousels for the masses was a Lancastrian, like our co founder of Goldhanger, Tony Pastor, so another great populist. This there was a bloke called Thomas Bradshaw, who was an inventor from Bolton, and he built a carousel with a steam engine, which is a big innovation. And he probably unveiled it in Bolton on New Year's Day, 1861. And then we have the first full account, two years later, he took it to Halifax. And the local paper described it as, and I quote, I was going to do the accent. Maybe I will do the accent. Hey, it's a roundabout of huge proportions, driven by a steam engine which will around with such impetuosity that the wonder is the daring riders are not shot off like cannon balls and driven half into the middle of next month.

They're not drinking coffee by this point.

No, definitely not. So that's Brad Shore with his steam-powered carousel. Now, he's actually just preparing the way for an even greater man. This is the Walt Disney of Kings Lynn. Fred Savage. Are you familiar with Fred Savage's life and career, Tom?

I think he clearly He invents Disneyland, doesn't he? It should really be called Savage land.

It should. He was born into a family of weavers in 1828. He never really learned to read and write. His father was transported to Tasmania for poaching, and he began work as a farm laborer when he was 10. But after his father disappeared, he needed more money, so he was apprenticed to a local machinemaker, and he proved to be very good at making machines. He sets up his own business making farm machinery, and then he diversifies into steam-powered, fair-ground machinery. And Fred Savage becomes, by the 1880s, he is, without doubt, the most innovative and influential maker of rides in the world. So if I give you just three examples of his great rides, there was a roundabout called Sea on Land, where you'd sit in a boat and it would pitch and toss as though you're on the waves. I mean, this is basically what you see in most fairgrounds, right? They have this ride. There It was a steam-driven carousel, which was the definitive carousel. It was called the platform gallopers. He had the idea of having you go up and down on colored poles, the bright colors and stuff, and the organ playing.

And this then was copied all over the world, the platform gallopers. Then the most influential ride, so we at Disneyland have been on a ride very like this, was called Switchbacks. And it was in 1888. And this had you sat in a gilded car in a and the cars raced around an undulating track. So the car's ride at Disneyland is basically just an updated version of the Switchbacks ride.

Amazing.

And he was a huge figure in Kings Lynn. He became the mayor of Kingsland. Brilliant. There is a statue of him in Kingsland to this day. So that's very exciting.

No one would pull that down. No. He sounds great. Do you know who actually who'd love him? It's my cousin Simon. Really? He makes Victorian fairground attractions and paints He's a magnificent artist and tinkerer.

Well, that's exciting. Maybe he already knows about Fred Savage. I'd like to think he does.

Probably does. I'll ask him.

But there's one thing that Fred Savage can't take credit for. And in fact, I'm sorry to say that we in Britain can't take any credit for at all. And that's the roller coaster. So the roller coaster has a mad history, a very unexpected history. Roller coasters originated in 18th century Tsarist Russia. So basically, how it worked was in palaces outside St. Petersburg in the age of Catherine the Great, serfs and servants would build these undulating hills of ice so that their masters and mistresses could go to boggaining.

Because it's all very flat, isn't it?

It is flat, so that's why they'd build these mountains. And the mountains were called Catalnaia Gorka, sliding mountains, and they'd sometimes be 80 feet high, and they would be buttressed with wooden supports. And over time, the Russian ability to say, Well, I enjoy this so much. I'd like to do it in the summer when there's no ice. So they build summer versions, and they do them not with toboggans, but with carts with wheels that roll down Grooved tracks. So the most famous one was a ride called the Riding Mountain. It was built at Sarsgoyasello, the country retreat of the Tsars, under Catherine the Great by Rastrelli, the architect who did the Winter Palace.

What's the health and safety?

Listen, if Catherine the Great comes off that ride, you're in massive trouble. You cannot take any risk.

I am not going to go on a ride that's been built in 18th century Russia. No way.

What about 19th century Paris? So by the early 19th century, these have been copied in Paris. And the first one is called the Montagne Rueus, Russian Mountains. And there's also one called Promenade Héréenne. And they were both installed in an amusement park in 1817 off the Champs Elyse. Again, these had these wheeled cars running in groups. You would tow your car to the top of a slope. You'd release it, it would whiz around the track. Louis XVIII came to see it. He came to see it, but he refused to ride in it.

I very much doubt he could have fitted in it.

Well, he's a very large man. The whole system would have crashed, splinted into timber beneath it. Unlike you at Disneyland, he thought it was beneath his dignity, whereas you did not.

I piled in.

Exactly. What turns these things into a proper roller coaster is the addition of steam. And that, I have to say, is an American innovation.

That's a shame.

You couldn't make this up. I mean, American names is just absolutely insane. So the first railway that does this was called the Morkchunk Switchback Railway.

It's like a pet food.

And if you think that's bad, The town that it was building was called... The town that it was built in was called Jim Thorpe.

Who founded the town of Jim Thorpe, Dominic?

Who could possibly say?

Very modest, very modest man.

The town is called Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania. It's the Morkchunk Switchback railway. It was a mining railway, but they called it the Gravity Road because it went so steeply downhill. And by 1870, the company that ran the Morkchunk railway decided that instead of using it for its proper purpose, they would throw it open to tourists who were visiting Jim Thorp.

Where are you spending your vacation? Jim Thorpe.

Not again. No, less a person than Ulysses S. Grant.

Oh, the corrupt and boring President.

Yeah, the corrupt and boring President of the United States. He traveled on it. So people hear the news of this Gravity railway. They're like, Brilliant. Love it. And this bloke, another man who was called Lamarcus Adner Thompson.

Where the hell did he come from?

God knows. He built his own version called the Gravity Switchback Railway at Coney Island in the 1880s. And it was Lamarcus Adner Thompson who came up with the idea of you would travel against painted backdrops. So basically, you pretend you're in the Swiss Alps or something. And from there, You soon get moved towards having loops, so in other words, going upside down. Again, Coney Island leads the way on that. So the amazingly named Flip Flap railway, which opened in 1895, has a loop so that you go upside down. And then there are basically versions in amusement parks all over the world in the next 30 to 40 years, which is the golden age of roller coasters. Actually, we think of it as now, but there are probably more roller coasters in the 1920s than there are right now. They all have one thing in common, and they have that in common with Catherine the Great's Riding Mountain, which you just trust. They are all made of wood. So the very first steel roller coaster was not open until 1959. It is called the Matterhorn Bobsleds. I believe Tabby has written on it because where does it open, Tom?

It opens at Disneyland.

I'd completely forgotten about Disneyland. Well, finally got back on track, as it were. Let's have a quick break now and When we come back, we will be in 1950s California, and we'll be finding out what has happened to Walt Disney's theme park. To all who come to this place, welcome. Disneyland is your land. Here, age relives fond memories of the past. Here, youth may savor the challenge and promise of the future. Disneyland is dedicated to the ideals, the dreams, and the hard facts that have created America, with the hope that it will be a source of joy and inspiration to all the world. I don't know if that's how Walt Disney spoke, but in my version, it is, because that was Walt Disney, and he was unveiling his park to the world's press on the 17th of July, 1955. Dominic, in those words are lots of the themes that we would associate with Disneyland today. So looking backwards, lots of sepia-tinged nostalgia, but also the excitement of the future, and there's idealism, and there's this patriotic sense that American history is something to be celebrated.

Exactly, yeah. We finally got back to Disneyland. Before we get to the opening day, let's backtrack a little to explain how we got to 1955. We left the story with Walt sending his emissaries to Europe to get inspiration from Tivoli and indeed from Voxel, if any, indirectly. They have returned full of ideas, and they get down to work in the early 1950s. The plan is going to have to change, a) because it's much grander than before, Walt wants something huge, but also because the city authorities in Burbank say, Look, we don't want a children's entertainment park. I had the studio You're going to have to look somewhere else. So what commissions this study to find a new site? And they report to him in the summer of 1953, and they say, look, Greater Los Angeles, because of the huge suburbanization in Eisenhower's America, is expanding at a vast rate. And the highest rate of growth is expected to be in suburban Orange County, which is just south of Los Angeles. Now, there are a couple of interesting things about Orange County. One, it already has a theme park. Called Notts Berry Farm, which lots of our American listeners will have heard of, which is basically a farm shop that's built its own ghost town, fake ghost town as an attraction.

What do you mean a ghost town? A town with ghosts like Scooby-Doo?

A abandoned, like Western town.

Minors town.

Yeah, a saloon and stuff. But I think there was also a more spectral element to it. Now there's loads of rides and things.

It's very popular. So with sinister janitors who turn out to be faking ghosts, that thing.

Exactly. I have to say an absolute preposterous name for a theme park, Notts Berry Farm.

It's not that scary, is it?

But very popular in America. The other thing about Orange County is a hugely symbolic place in postwar American politics. It's the birthplace of Richard Nixon, but it is the heartland of Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, conservatism. There's a whole book called Suburban Warriors by a historian called Lisa McGur, all about Orange County as the petri dish in which modern American conservatism was made. Anyway, It's here that Walt Disney decides he'll have his park. He buys 160 acres of orange groves in Anaheim, and he says, Right, now we have to pay for it. Now, the budget for Disneyland ends up ballooning to $17 million. That's the equivalent equivalent of about $620 million today in terms of a construction project. So he doesn't have anything like this money. And the way he does it, which you described last time, is TV. He signs a deal with ABC. They will pump cash effectively into his park, and in return, he will make programs, 26 programs a year for them. And this is, as you said before, it's the first time a Hollywood studio, rather than seeing television as the enemy, has got into bed with them. And that show, Disneyland, which is the first show, it's a brilliant advert for his new park, and it's a colossal, colossal hit.

The only show on TV that is more popular than its repeats is I Love Lucy, the Lucille Ball sitcom. As you described last time, this is the show that makes Walt himself a public personality, so people get to see Uncle Walt. Meanwhile, his team are racing to finish this park. The time scale is bonkers by modern standards. So they broke ground on the 17th of July, 1954. And Walt basically said to them, I think a year should do it.

Wow.

You've got 365 days. Loads of problems. They have problems with the soil. They have problems with the unions.

Those pesky unions again.

Yeah, he hates the unions. Problems with plumbing, all of this. Walt is always changing his plans. So he's always saying, why don't we put this here? Why don't we build something else here?

Well, exactly like Snow White. Yeah. Why don't you spend seven months working on an entertaining thing involving teacups. Now, I'm not going to have that. Let's cut it.

Yeah, exactly. We should actually give a shout out to the person who really runs the project, who's ended up being airbrush from Disney's history. And this was the general director who was called CV Wood, and he had run He had a study. He'd basically been in charge of the research institute that did the study that said, Do it in Orange County in Anaheim. And he was brilliant in organizing the project, but he fell out with Walt and he was fired, and he was basically erased from Disney's history, which is very sad.

So something that Disney would have had in common with Khrushchev.

Yeah.

Erasing people from history.

That's true. I hadn't thought of that. It's a nice... Yeah, the commissar vanishing. We'll get into later on what the design of Disneyland is and what it means. But some of the themes of its history are there from the very beginning. So first of all, Walt is always really clear that it is not just an amusement park. It's basically a theme park. And the difference is if you go to an amusement park and you don't go on any rides, you You're in for a very boring time because there's nothing else to do. Whereas, as we know, having been, you can go to Disneyland and actually spend the day without going on a single ride because you can see all the other attractions. You can go to the shops, you can go to the cafés, you can just relax, enjoy yourself. There's parades, there's fireworks.

So we went to the Star Wars area, didn't we? And there was a bar like the one in Star Wars. And we were entertained by watching Theo be arrested by a couple of stormtroopers. Exactly. Which I thought It was actually, for me, the single best moment in the whole visit.

In the whole of the history, the rest is history, no? Actually, we will return to that moment in a second.

Excellent.

So it's a land. It's a place unto itself in a way that Voxel and Tivoli never were. And it's immersive. So every detail has to be right. There's an argument at one point where they're going to use cut glass or stained glass.

Stained glass, obviously.

Yeah. And Walt says it's got to be stained glass. Every detail It has to be perfect. Who cares how much it costs? So that's what partly explains the commercialism that we associate with Disney and Disneyland. So the sponsorship, for example, he's got sponsorship deals with American Motors, with Richfield Oil, with a Swift meatpacking company, because he needs to pay for all of this attention to detail.

And who's he going to get to work in this?

Well, this is crucial. So I think this is one of the most inspired things, actually, about Disneyland. Walt Disney said, this is It's not just a park. I want people to think of this as a movie set, which we'll get onto later. And so the staff are not employees, they are cast members. And that term is still used entirely unironically by Disney today. Yeah.

So we saw Mary Poppins when we were walking around, but also, famously, there's Mickey Mouse and Theo's friend Goofy and all these characters.

Yeah, and the Stormtroopers or whatever.

So they're obviously actors, but all the people who are there to help, they are cast as actors as well.

Exactly. And they are playing a part as well in a way because they have to be perfectly turned out. They're all smiling. They're incredibly polite. There's a very strict dress code.

And no facial hair. That's the mad thing because Walt has a mustache. And also there's no smoking And if there's one thing everyone knows about Disney, he loves a cigarette. Yeah.

And also no fat people. So the very first manager of Adventure Land, which is part of the park, you said later, what was Ruel was really mean to me, and basically made it very clear that he didn't really want me in his park because I was so large. Walt doesn't like fat guys. So the other thing is the slight suspicion that's hung over at Disneyland is, did they all have to be white? And that's not really true. So Walt Disney had always employed Asian-American artists and illustrators. But that said, as late as 1963, so civil rights groups are still petitioning the Disney organization and saying to them, Can you please guarantee that there will be more black employees? And the Disney organization said, Yeah, we'll think about it. But it's actually not clear whether that really had an impact and actually how much changed and how long it took. Anyway, back to the story. The big day approaches the 17th of July. Massive excitement. Walt has been promoting it on ABC. Abc themselves have taken up expensive full-page adverts in the newspapers. Right up to the deadline, Waltht is tinkering with his park. Of course he is.

He's riding the train, he's saying the shops need to be different all this thing. Four days early, he has his 30th wedding anniversary, and he uses that as a very soft opening. He invites his closest friends and some big Hollywood stars like Cary Grant and Gary Cooper to a party at the Golden Horseshoe Saloon, which is still there, actually. And then 17th of July, the big day dawns. And the funny thing about it is that in many ways, it's total and utter chaos. So first of all, C. V. Wood has sent out 15,000 invitations because invitation only. But loads of people print out counterfeit fake invitations and get in. And loads of other people basically lean ladders against the fence, climb over the ladder to get in, much like people used to do at rock festivals and things. There's a heat wave in Southern California, so the temperature hits 101 degrees Fahrenheit.

Wasn't there some issue with the water supply? Walt had to choose between flushing toilets and fountains. He opts for the toilets, I think, correctly.

But then people complain, and they say the water fountains aren't really working because there's been a plumbing strike.

It has unions again. Pesky unions.

There's a gas leak. The refreshment stands run out of food and drink. Famously, the newly laid asphalt, the tarmac, melts. So people, if you're wearing high heels, they get stuck, which is very funny. The TV broadcast, which is watched by a colossal number of people, Neil Gabler reckons 70 million Americans. The TV broadcast is a bit of a disaster. Ronald Reagan is one of the three presenters. Yeah.

Well, Reagan introduces Disney when he makes that thing with which we open this section. Yeah. And now Walt Disney will step forward to read the dedication of Disneyland.

Ronald Reagan is very Disney in his appeal, isn't he, in his ethos?

So Disney.

He misses his line, he forgets his lines. It all goes horribly wrong. However, Walt is absolutely delighted with the day. Everybody says at the time, he seems so happy.

Well, happy This is the word, isn't it? Because in that opening speech, he says, to all who come to this happy place, welcome. And that's the essence of it for him. He wants people to be happy.

The happiest place on Earth. Yeah, absolutely. Actually, the press coverage, although some of the press said there were quite a few missed cues and things that went wrong. Most of the press coverage was pretty admiring, and people said, this is an extraordinary place, an extraordinary achievement. Actually, if you look at the stats, the first week, 163 1,000 visitors. By mid-august, 1955, so it's been open now for probably a month, it's had half a million. By the end of September, 1 million. By its first anniversary, so it's been open 12 months. July, 1956, four million. By the end of 1957, 10 million. And at that point, by the end of 1957, it's been open for 18 months. It is a bigger attraction than Yellowstone or Yosemite or the Grand Canyon. It has already, after just 18 months, taken its place in the wanders of the United States, a place that everybody dreams of going.

And it's fascinating. All those sites that you listed are parks, they're natural wonders. And of course, the essence of Disneyland is its complete artificiality.

Exactly. So we'll get on to just in the final minutes of the episode, it's meaning. But just on Walt Disney himself, he never stopped. He spent day after day at the park. He had this special special apartment built here at the fire station. It's pastiche of Gilded Age America, lots of velvet, lots of lace. And he would stand there at the window looking out, and people would see him, and they'd say he often looked visibly moved, even tearful, as he watched these crowds.

And there's a lantern kept alive there to this day, isn't there?

Yeah, exactly. They're a very Disney detail. He said to interviewers, it's not finished. It will never be finished. It's a project that it's a live breathing thing. He's always thinking of gondolas and monorails and new rides. So of the iconic rides that are still there today, the Tom Sawyer Island that opened in 1956, the Matterhorn was 1959, and the Pirates of the Caribbean in, which inspired the films. So that was the last ride that Disney designed, and it opened in 1967, a year after his death. So he never got to ride on it, Tom, but we have.

We did, didn't we? And before the park had actually opened. It doesn't get more Walt Disney than that.

I don't want to excite people too much, but there may be a piece of content arriving on YouTube that actually shows us riding the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. So that will be fun for people to see. Now, I don't want to tantalize people too much, but If you look on YouTube tomorrow, so Friday, you will see a thrilling footage of me and Tom and a special guest riding Pirates of the Caribbean attraction. And wasn't that fun, Tom?

Amazing.

One of the great moments in your life, surely.

It was all about happiness.

It was. So by the end of the '50s, Disney's ambitions have got even greater. He's thinking about something even bigger, a city, not just a theme park, a city. And he gets his executives to buy 27,000 acres of land in Florida. And to put that into context, that is an area the size of Manchester, England, an area twice the size of Manhattan.

America.

Manhattan, America.

Just to clarify for people who may be geographically confused.

For Australian listeners. And that is what becomes Disney World. So his plan for Disney World is, he says, well, I suppose I'll have to have another amusement park, but really, my heart isn't in the amusement park.

Yeah, because he's moved on now. He's done his amusement park. So now he wants to do his urban planning.

He wants a utopian city for his workers. And it will be modeled, once again, I'm happy to say, Disney Disney World, like Disneyland, is essentially British because it is modeled on the garden cities of the Edwardian planner, Sir Ebenezer Howard. So if you want to see an example of Disney World, merely go to Letchworth or Wellingard Garden City, which are the garden cities based on Howard's ideas, because that's what Walt Disney was all about.

The Epcot of the Home Counties.

The Epcot of the Home Counties. So unfortunately for him, he died, and then his vision was dialed down, and we ended up being dialed down one of the lands of Disney World, which is Epcot.

That's such a shame, isn't it?

And then Epcot now, basically, it lingered because it was a massive educational worlds fair and nobody wanted to really go. They wanted to go on the rides. So now it does have rides. It has a ratatouille ride, a frozen ride, and a guardians of the Galaxy ride. So that's much more exciting. Anyway, Disney World is much bigger, but there's always something very special about Disneyland. It has always fascinated postmodern theorists.

Especially in Europe. Up, isn't it?

Yeah. So part of this, I think, is because of its eclecticism, but also because of the emphasis on fantasy and stuff.

We basically invents the idea of postmodernism, different architectural styles mingling together.

It does. So Umberto Echo the author of The Name of the Rose, the great Italian postmodernist theorist. He wrote at length about Pirates of the Caribbean ride, which we've been on, and the Haunted mansion ride, which I think Tabi may have been on. And he said of Disneyland that it was the Sistine Chapel of America, an allegory of the consumer society, a place of absolute iconism, a place of total passivity. Then you have Jean Baudreat.

Brilliant. A French philosopher on the rest of his history. We love it. Pile in.

Let's get Baudreat on the show. He said, Disneyland is the supreme example of hyper-reality. The point of Disneyland, he said, basically, with its artifice and its fantasy, it's to trick us into thinking that the rest of America is real.

So French.

So, Disneyland is presented as imaginary in order to make us believe that the rest is real, when in fact, all of Los Angeles and the America surrounding it are no longer real, but of the order of the hyper real and of simulation. And it continues at great length. I'm not entirely persuaded by Baudreat's argument. I think Los Angeles probably is real. Also, I'm not persuaded that Disney visitors are passive, as we shall see.

It's expressive of, I guess, something that's being characteristic of European's looking at Disney's films and then of his scene parks for ages, which is a absolute fascination intermingled with a snobbery as well.

Yeah, a snobbish contempt. A snobbish contempt, which I think I certainly don't share myself.

Well, you're a man of the people.

Well, having been to Disney World as a punter, and as a parent and a punter, I have to say it was an extremely enjoyable holiday, and I heartily recommend it to people.

Something that I denied my own children.

Yeah, he did. What does that tell you?

Hatreds of all is so much more fun. What can I say?

Just a couple of aspects of Disneyland that struck me on our recent trip. First of all is, if you went as we did, having immersed yourself in the story of Walt Disney, in the biographies of him and so on, when you get there, it's very obvious how much this is based on one man's personal story and one man's personal genius. As Neil Gabbler points out in his biography, when you enter the park, you arrive in Main Street, USA. This is very obviously an idealized vision of Walt Disney's boyhood in small town, Marceline, Missouri. You walk down the Main Street and you get to Sleeping Beauties Castle. That's the architectural embodiment of a fantasy, the idealism, the ambition that's always drawn him on. Then at the castle, you have a choice of paths, different lands. It's fantasy land, adventure land, frontier land, tomorrow land. Those are all in their different ways. Hollywood pop cultural genres of the 1940s and 1950s, the Western, the adventure story, the fantasy, the science fiction story, and so on. I think that takes us to the next point, which is that the park is very Obviously, as we've already mentioned, a Hollywood film set.

A lot of the attractions, even the older attractions, to a way that we don't really notice now, are modeled on films of mid-century America. So the Western Saloon is directly copied from a saloon in the Doris Day film, Calamity Jane. The jungle cruise that you can go on is modeled on the Humphrey Bogart film, The African Queen. And the point is, you're meant to feel like you are in a film. That moment, the greatest moment in the history of the rest is history when Bob Iger got his staff to tell the stormtroopers to arrest Theo Young Smith for loitering. The stormtroopers told Theo off, and he looked really sheepish and guilty.

Well, he was obviously running guns for the whatever it is, the resistance.

And they say something like to him. They say, Do you want to get in trouble again? And Theo says, Very weekly. No. That was the best thing I've ever seen.

The freedom fighter. But he lives to fight another day, to be fair. I guess the other thing, just to emphasize, is you say it's like being in a film set. You cannot see outside the park. Once you're in the park, you are surrounded by sets.

Total immersion. The rides themselves are stories. This will surprise people who haven't been to Disneyland. The rides are not like the rides in normal parks, especially when you do the queue. There's a whole series of tableau. So the Rise of the Resistance, the Star Wars ride, Which we didn't do. But the Star Wars ride, for example, that we did, the Rise of the Resistance, you feel like you're in a story, right? I remember a thing you were saying to me afterwards, I've always wanted to be in Star Wars, and now I am. That's the whole point of the show. The other interesting thing, just as in a film set, they're doing all kinds of tricks with the proportions. On the main street, the shops on the bottom floor are nine-tenths of normal size. Then as you go up, they are eight-tenths, seven-tenths, and so on and so forth. Now, this was really deliberate. Walt said to his designers, I want it to feel a little bit like you're in a toy. I want to heighten the sense of nostalgia because the past always feels smaller and quainter. He says at one point to his designers, he says, I don't want big buildings.

Big buildings are for a dictator. Big buildings make you feel small. I want people to feel empowered. And when I read that, I had a look at other buildings built at the same time. And as luck would have it, five days after Disneyland, one of the absolute emblematic buildings of the Communist block in the Cold War was opened in Warsaw. This was a building called the Palace of Culture and Science. It towered over Warsaw. People said it was Stalin's gift to the people of Poland. The people of Poland hated it. And it wasn't entirely dissimilar in ethos from Disneyland because it had a swimming pool, it had a cinema, it had theaters, it had a museum. It was meant to be a palace of leisure. But the effect could not have been more different. So this building, this very Orwellian building, completely dominated the landscape and the cityscape, and it completely dwarfed the individual. You felt intimidated and crushed by it. Disneyland never has that effect on you.

No. And so confirming Walt's darker suspicions of Bolteviks dominant.

Quite right. Well, this is the other thing. Disneyland is nothing, if not a It's a heartfelt tribute to American patriotism.

So this is the animatronic Abraham Lincoln and all that.

Abraham Lincoln. The ethos of Disneyland, I feel, is very Eisenhower era. It's the nostalgic small town conservatism on one hand, and the innocent faith in the possibilities of the future on the other. It wears that Eisenhower era Americanism so heavily. If you go to Tivoli, we've both been to Tivoli, you can go to Tivoli and you can forget you're in Denmark. I know there's Hans-Christian Andersen, but in all other respects, it could be in the Netherlands or in Sweden or-In Voxel. In Voxel, exactly. There is no way you could go to Disneyland in California and doubt that you're in an American creation I mean, the Americanness is everywhere, almost every ride, even the ones with British themes, reek of Americanness, American patriotism, and so on.

That's why PL Travis hated it when-Exactly.

Walt took her there. To go back one more time to the Cold War era, I think in the smallness, in the individualism, in the American patriotism, it's very much a product of that time. But there's also the sense of order and harmony and reassurance that I think reflects the values of the day as well. To compare it once again with Voxel, the Voxel Pleasure Gardens in the 18th and 19th century, the organizers tried to keep disorder and the lower orders obey by charging a shilling, and they'd three shilling But there was always a suspicion that reality was breaking in. There were darkened corners where people were drinking or they were sneaking off for erotic assignations. There was always the possibility of hedonism and unruliness. And that's true, I think, with a lot of parks, gaggles of teenagers who've been necking gin or something.

Well, it's why, I suppose, when Euro Disney opens, there's no alcohol on sale because that has to be guarded against.

Right. It's your wholesomeness. Yeah. I mean, Coney Island, Blackpool Pleasure Beach. Those are places where you go and you have fun, and there's always a suspicion that naughtiness may ensue.

Naughtiness may ensue.

That's never going to happen at Disneyland. So the future American ambassador to Britain, Nixon's ambassador to Britain, Walter Annenberg, who was a publisher, when he went to Disneyland, he said, If there's one word that sums it up, that word is wholesomeness. And he's not wrong. So for example, the cleanliness is a huge part of Disneyland's ethos. Walt Disney used to go around picking up litter himself. Actually, when we were there, Tom, I noticed, out of the corner of my eye, Bob Iger, the head of Disney, stopped dropping, reaching into the gutter or something and picking up a bit of litter and putting it in the bin. Almost as an instinctive reflex. And I think what that reflects is that there is an ethos of total order. Nothing unexpected can ever happen at Disneyland. People always say, if you're ever going to lose your child, lose your child at Disneyland because there's absolutely no way that anything bad can happen. And you know your child will be returned to you. And that, of course, is what more high-brow critiques always dislike it Because high-brow critiques tend to like disorder. They privilege unruliness and hedonism and all those kinds of things.

And they find Disneyland too managed and too perfect. But of course, that's what ordinary punters like about it. There's a collection of I say, is by somebody called Carol Anne Marling, and she talks about the Disney park. She says it's the architecture of reassurance. There's no right angles. It's all loops. It's all curves.

Like Mickey's ears.

Yeah, like Mickey's ears. Exactly. It all feels comforting. It feels like there is a gentle paternalistic order that is governing everything. And some people find that cloying and off-putting. But frankly, if you go there with a eight-year-old or something, you absolutely crave. Maybe you don't because you take them to Adrian's Wall where they look miserable in the rain. But I loved going to Disney World as a parent because I thought it was the one place where I could switch off and know that nothing would ever possibly go wrong.

Well, it is, again, that The idea of total control also requires banishment of things that might threaten that control. So the slogan isn't that when you enter Disneyland, you will find yourself in the land of yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy. Nothing of the present exists in Disneyland. You're escaping the news, you're escaping the chaos of the headlines and all of that. I assume that that is why it's been a perennial theme of science fiction since Disneyland opened, to imagine what would happen if a theme park goes wrong. In 1973, the novelist Michael Crichton wrote a script for a film called Westworld, which was set in a Western theme park. You have animatronic gunslingers, and one of them is played by Jules Brinner, and it all goes wrong. Gunslingers start shooting the guests. Then, of course, in 1990, Michael Crichton published another book on a similar theme called Jurassic Park, which was then made into the film by Steven Spielberg. I have to say, we got taken by Bob Iger behind the scenes at Disney World, which I thought, in a way, was the the biggest privilege I felt going there because you get to see what normal visitors don't sea.

And I have to say that walking behind the Star Wars ride or whatever, down these gantries and up ladders and things, the whole time I was waiting for a velociraptor to leap out of a tree and attack us. Yeah.

Surely you're waiting for that the whole time, though, aren't you? Whether you're at Disneyland or not.

I think it felt very Jurassic Park behind the scenes.

Yeah. But the difference is that you know that's not going to happen at Disneyland because it's basically the ultimate safe space, isn't it? Correct. Now, some people, I think, will find that a hellish prospect. Frankly, I think those people have got no souls because I love Disneyland. And I say that even before I'd gone with Bob. Actually, I think this is the most enduring thing that Disney created, even Even more than the films, because I know the films are great. Snow White is a great film, a landmark in Hollywood filmmaking. But not that many people watch those films today. They're period pieces.

They are, but they do establish the the the the the animated tradition which is frozen and all of that.

I don't disagree with you at all, but millions of people visit the parks as living, breathing things.

Probably billions of people have children who watch films, Disney films on video.

And they have been enormously influential architecturally. So as early as 1963, at a conference at Harvard, a developer called James Rouse, who was actually the father of the modern shopping mall, he addressed his audience who were architects and critics. He said to them, You may be shocked by this, but my view is that the greatest piece of urban design in the United States today is Disneyland. In its respect for people, in its functioning for people, Disneyland has more to teach modern planners than any other single single piece of physical development in this country.

Well, just to reiterate, it has no cars. I mean, I think that's absolutely crucial to it. It's what American tourists to Europe like when they go to Looker or Florence or whatever. It's also what they like when they go to to Disneyland that you do actually have to walk. I'm amazed American urban planners don't factor that in a little bit more.

Well, I think it's because it's on a human scale. I'll give the last word to a guy called Robert Venturi. So he's a massively influential postmodern architect, and he designed the Sainsbury wing of the National Gallery in London. He was a massive fan of Disney's parks, and he argued that Disney's parks were the ultimate expression of the city on a hill, American utopian impulse. He said, The best thing about Disney's parks was that they have come nearer to what people really want than anything that architects have ever given them.

Well, on that laudatory tone. Thank you, Dominic. That was fantastic. Fantastic. Coming out tomorrow, as you mentioned, Dominic, an extra special treat for our beloved listeners that may well feature Dominic going on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. I don't know because I haven't actually seen the film yet, but it'll be very good, very entertaining, I think. Thank you so much. Next week, we have one additional Disney bonus. We will be going back to the great films. We'll be placing them in the context of the age that produced them. That is Snow White through to Bambi. I hope you enjoy that. Next week, we are going back in time to the young Elizabeth, the girl who grew up to become Elizabeth I, her adventures, her scrapes with danger before she became queen. We will see you then, I hope. But for now, bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Hi there. It's David Olochoga from Journey Through Time. Here's that extract from our gunpowder plot series that I mentioned earlier. The person who's not rejoicing is Guy Fawkes in the Tower. King James himself came to the tower to question Fawkes. That's quite an astonishing fact that Fawkes and the King looked into each other's eyes at that moment.

Of course, interrogations at this time. When we say interrogations as if they're just being questioned, but interrogations are brutal, violent events.

Yeah, and it's going to get much, much more violent. Fawkes stands up to the King in a way that actually even impresses the King. He's open that they plan to blow up Parliament. He said that the aim had been to blow King James and the other Scots back to their Scottish mountains. He says that to the King.

It takes guts, but it's also not the most diplomatic thing to say to the person you've just tried to murder and your fate is in his hands. Yeah.

Well, I think Fawkes knows what's going to happen. I mean, the King was impressed by his obstinancy that he would not reveal the names of his co-conspirators, that he was willing to insult the King to his face. You have to say about Guy Fawkes, a man who'd been a soldier for 10 years. My God, he had guts. I mean, he is a bad man. He is a religious fanatic. He's not somebody I admire, but my God, he was brave. You can be brave and wrong. You can be brave and involved in things that are evil at the same time. He was all of those things. But this his willingness to stand up to the King that this is before the torture.

If you want to hear more about gunpowder, treason, and plot, listen to Journey Through Time wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm David Ulishoga.

And I'm Sarah Churchwell.

This week on Journey Through Time, we are exploring the story of the gunpowder plot of 1605, the story of how a small group of Catholics engaged in what would have been the most devastating terrorist in all of British history.

The plan was ruthless, blow up Parliament, King James I, and most of his family, all in a single blow.

The series will tell the story of treason and traitors, of a group of men led by the charismatic Robert Catesby, who believed that the only option left to them to win their rights as Catholic was the violent destruction of the Stuart State.

We look at the story of Guy Fox, the nation's most famous traitor, from his recruitment to becoming the Plott's Fall guy and ultimately being tortured and killed.

Finally, we found out why this plot is still remembered now, 400 years later. Listen to Journey Through Time wherever you get your podcasts.

George Orwell was one of the most impactful voices of the 20th century. But do you know what? His life story is just as interesting as the things he wrote.

I'm William Drimple.

I'm Anita Arnould, and we are the hosts of Empire, a goalhanger show about world history. On Empire, we're currently in the middle of a gripping four-part series about the life of George Orwell.

Orwell's early life was wrapped up in the British Empire. He was born in India to an opium trading father, and in his 20s, he served as a colonial police officer in Burma.

His later life crystallized his hatred of totalitarianism. As an idealistic writer, he traveled to fight with the Republicans against Franco's fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and he witnessed the horrors of the Blitz.

These experiences led him to write his most famous novels, Animal Farm and 1984, giving us enduring phrases like Big Brother is watching you.

To listen to our mini-series now, subscribe to Empire wherever you get your podcast.