Transcript of 645. The Fall of the Incas: Massacre in the Andes (Part 2)

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Hello, everybody. Now, we promised that we would be back with more news about the thrilling Rest is History Festival. And we can now reveal some more of the massive names who will be joining us at Hampton Court Palace on the fourth and fifth of July this year. One of them is the brilliant Tracey Borman, who will be joining us to talk about the secrets of the Tudas. And the other, another massive fan favorite is Katya Hoyer, who will be talking about her new work on Weimar, Germany.

I will be joined by Mary Beard to talk about what else Rome. I will also be joined by friend of the show, Ali Ansari, to talk about what else Persha.

I will also be joined by massive fan favorite and Irish national treasure, Paul Rouse, who will be joining us to talk about the history of Ireland.

I will be joined by Helen Caster to talk about, very appropriately, considering that we're at Hampton Court, Elizabeth I. A few names left to announce, and you'll be able to find the full lineup on the new Rest is History website very soon.

Tom, the one thing that's puzzling me, how will our listeners be able to join us at this new festival?

Dominic, the answer is very simple. They will have to become members of the Rest is History Club because this festival is exclusive to members of the Rest is History Club.

If you are a member, you can enter the ballot for two tickets. Now, you might think, I actually don't want to enter the ballot. I'd like guaranteed tickets. And the way to do that is to become an Affle stand, because if you're one of our Affle stand members, then you are guaranteed access to two tickets.

So you are going to receive full details via email. And if you would like any extra information on the festival, on the ballot, on the guests, whatever, then click the link in the episode description.

So for a chance to join us at the inaugural Rest is History Festival, sign up to the club today at therestishistory. Com, because believe me, this is something that you won't want to miss.

Have you ever climbed a mountain in full armor? Well, that's what we did. Pizarro, going first the whole way up a tiny path into the clouds with drops sheer on both sides into nothing. For hours, we crept forward like blind men, the sweat freezing on our faces, luggings skittery, leaking horses, and pricked all the time for the ambush that would tip us into death. Each turn of the path, it grew colder. The friendly trees of the forest dropped away, and there were only pines. Then they went two, and there, just scrubby little bushes standing up in ice. All round us, the rocks began to wine with cold. And always above us or below us, those filthy condor birds hanging on the air with great tussled wings. Then night, we lay down twos and threes together on the path and hugged like lovers for warmth in that burning cold. And most cried. We got up with cold iron for bones and went on. Four days like that, groaning, not speaking the breath, a blade in our lungs. Four days slowly like flies on a wall, limping flies, dying flies, up an endless wall of rock. A tiny army lost in the creases of the moon.

That was Old Martin in Peter Schaffer's play, The Royal Hunt of the Sun, which came out in 1964. I'm going to confess I had no idea really how to play him. I tried out a range of tones and accents and voices.

The voice changed from line to line, no? Yeah, I did.

Dominic, I'm assuming that all the readings for this series are going to be coming from this play, are they?

No, I don't think they are.

Oh, because I thought that over the process of the six episodes we're doing, I could maybe by episode six, I would finalize how old Martin should actually have spoken.

Because his narrative stops too soon. Oh, okay. Yeah, we have to find some other readings for the later episodes.

Okay. So whenever one thinks of Old Martin and how he should be speaking, what he is doing there is describe the point in our story where the Spanish conquistadors are inching their way through the Andes towards their showdown with the Inca Emperor at Hualpa. Dominic, we've said it before, we're going to say it again, this is one of the most dramatic confrontations in history. It is up there with Cortés meeting Moctezuma. It is that seismic.

It is, absolutely. It is. It's an amazing It's seen in the play, actually. It ends with the Spanish on the hillside above the town of Ciamarca, where they're due to meet Attawelpa. And Martin says, You could almost touch the silence. Up on the hill, we could see the Inca's tense and the light from his fire's ringing the valley. It's the sense of gathering tension and excitement. Very, very dramatic moment. And that is the story we are telling today. So they're meeting with Attawelpa, and what happens next? Let's just remind listeners where we got to. So the year is 1532. The veteran conquistador, Francisco Pizarro, has landed in Peru with around 200 men looking for adventure, for glory, and for gold. He is convinced that somewhere south along the Pacific Coast is this rich and sophisticated kingdom. Of course, he is right. This kingdom is Tawantinsoyo, the land of the Four Quarters, or as we would call it, the Empire of the Incas. One of the largest empires in the world at this point. From their heartland in Cusco, the Incas ruled about 12 million people, all the from Colombia and Ecuador in the north to Chile in the south.

Pizarro has made a stunning discovery. He's landed at a place called Tumbes, and he has discovered that the empire is in chaos. There's been ravaged by smallpox and by this fratricidal civil war between two claimants to the throne, Huascar, the older brother who is based in Cusco, and Atahualpa, the younger, who is formerly his viceroy in Quito in Ecuador. So a very Game of Thrones style struggle for the throne. Now, Pizarro and his men, so that is his brothers, Hernando Gonzalo Arjuan, and his lieutenant, Hernando de Soto, great horseman, posh but sinister, and short. They can see their opening. If they can profit from the Incas divisions, then maybe they can emulate Pizarro's cousin, Hernán Cortés, the conqueror of the Aztecs. Let's pick up the story from where we left off. It is midwinter, which means it's what we would call summer in Peru. Pizarro is still in the far northwestern corner. He is about 900 miles north of modern day Lima, so that is about 1,300 miles north of Cusco, the Inca capital.

Is there a road that goes straight there, though?

No, a series of roads.

The Incas have built this incredible road network, so it's actually not as far as it might sound.

Well, it's still far, but it's- Yeah, but you don't have to hack your way through jungles or anything. No, there's not too much hacking, but there's a lot of crossing of rope bridges, and everyone knows that's dangerous. Fertiginous ascents and descent and stuff like that.

Lama action.

Exactly.

But Pizarro wants to make sure that his governorship, that he has been awarded by the Spanish king is on firm foundations. The first thing he does is to establish a new town. This is from his cousin, Cortés' Mexican playbook. This is what Cortés had done. You establish a town, you establish a municipal government government, and that gives you the legal foundation that means you can't be challenged for governorship of this country.

Can I ask you, Dominic, what has Charles IV licensed Pizarro to do? It's the notion that Pizarro will turn up founder city and that the Incas will be so peaceable that they'll just go, That's great. And if they don't, is there a license to attack them with horses and gunpowder and stuff?

So as we will discover, under the regulations from, I think, 1513, the Council of Castile, you read them this thing called the requirement, which explains to them the history of the world, the story of Jesus, and the fact that Charles IV, the King of Spain, has been licensed by the Pope to export Christianity to the Americas. When you read them this, they are legally bound to submit to vassalage. If they don't, you can kill them.

That essentially is the legal framework?

Yes, exactly.

But is Pizarro expecting that he's going to have to fight?

Yeah, I'm sure he is.

Or is he hoping that perhaps they could arrive at a mutually acceptable accommodation?

I think, ideally, they'll reach an accommodation, but violence is always part of the Spanish repertoire. And everywhere the Spanish have been, so in the Caribbean, in Ivory Island, in Mesoamerica, in Central America, everywhere they have been, theatrical terror has been an important part of their armory.

I just wonder, though, because it is very punchy, even by the stance of the Spanish, to invade an empire consisting of 12 million people with under 200 people.

Yeah, it is. I mean, some people might say, you might say bonkers if it were not for the fact that we all know that they do it. I know. He's thinking he's going to get reinforcements, that they're going to arrive at any moment.

Are the Spanish going to think of Atahuelpa as a usurper? So does that invalidate him as someone with whom they can negotiate?

No, I don't think so straight away. But I think the further they get, the more they realize the divisions of the Civil are a wonderful, wonderful opportunity for them. Initially, they think of Atahuelpa as a potential collaborator. That's what they want, really. That's what all empires want. They don't want to fight unnecessarily. They may have to, but ideally everyone will collaborate with them. In fact, the Spanish will find plenty of people who collaborate with them in the Inca Empire as they did with the Aztecs.

It's opportunistic militarism then. It's basically their mood.

Yeah, I think that's the right way of putting it. Pizarro moves out on the 24th of September with his men. He's left some men to found this new town, San Miguel de Tangerada. What that means is that he now has, what is it, 167 men plus him. So, 61 horsemen, 106 infantry. There's a brilliant book of historical detective work called The Men of Kiamaka by James Lockhart, American historian, made in about 1970, where he redug into where they were all from and what they all did. Most of them are from the poor and more rural, western and Southern parts of Spain, so extra madura, Andalutia, and so on. They're quite young, by and large. They're in their 20s. The more senior people are in their early 30s.

So Pizarro, he's unusually old then.

He's a real outlier. He's about 52, I would say. These are not trained soldiers by and large. There's loads of accountants, tailors, merchants, craftsmen. There's a barber, there's a stone mason. These are people who basically were... They weren't the poorest of the poor. They were artisans, I guess, who have decided to seek a new life and a new fortune.

There are some, aren't there? There's the Cretan guy, the artillery man. It's good to have him on the scene. He's come with Pizarro and some guns.

And Pizarro's brother, Hernando, who fought in Italy. There's a couple of people with military experience. A lot of these people will have seen action in the Caribbean, and that involved basically killing defenseless indigenous people, natives. That's the action that they're used to. They're not trained professional soldiers by any means. Why are they here? They are here really for money. Some of them are there for adventure. Some of them may be there for crusading zeal. The Dominicans, for example, there are five or six Dominicans who are with them. Yes, of course.

Dr. Valverde among them.

Exactly. But there's a transactional element. When they've got their gold, they either settle down with a farm in Peru or a lot of them will go back to Spain. That's the plan. Anyway, they set off 24th of September. It's a grueling, grueling trudge. So as one account puts it, there was much sun, little shade, much sand, and no water. Because this part of Peru is a coastal desert plain. So they're making good time, about 14 miles a day. They're absolutely fascinated by what they see. They write these fantastic accounts, the temples, the lamas, the very well-ordered roads and bridges, the storehouses of food by the roadside. That's a very good sign as far as they're concerned. Because that means there is a lot of order and civilisation if there are well-maintained storehouses.

Do they know with surprise, the lack of wheels?

I think it becomes obvious why there's no wheels, because there are no horses. Whenever they go, people shy away from the horses. They're absolutely astonished and horrified. A horse is a very frightening thing, I think, if you've never seen a horse. We know throughout the Americas, when the Spanish turned up with horses, people were absolutely stupified and amazed and frightened. So they're beginning to attract attention. At one point, a messenger hails them on the road and he says, I have been sent by Huascar, the defeated brother, by his faction, at least. He has heard that you have come to bring justice to Peru, and he wants to ask for your protection. And Pizarro gives him a non-committal answer. He says, Where there's injustice, we'll put it right. But nothing more than that. There's also a very weird incident quite early on when the Spanish notice a young man hanging around their camp and lurking, generally. He's dressed as a street peddler, and he has this huge shal that he wears over his head and shoulders to protect him from the sun. He's always trying to get him to buy his trinkets. They call him Apoo.

Apoo is very interested in their horses and their swords. Actually, it turns out that Apoo is a spy sent by Atahuelpa.

So not a very good one.

Not a terribly good one, no. Now, I mentioned Attawelpa. What's he up to, the Emperor? Or at least the would-be Emperor who's been fighting his brother. He has made camp about 300 miles away in the mountains near the town of Ciamarca. His priority is not the Spanish. It is the Civil War. So he's waiting for news from the south, where his commander, who has the excellent name of Quisquis, is leading the final assault on Cusco. So when he gets news that a load of blokes with beards have turned up on the Coast, they've been looting villages, they've been behaving poorly in storehouses, helping themselves to the They'd be very rude to some of the locals, he's perturbed. What's all this? But he's not especially frightened. Apu reports back and says, The Spanish are in absolute shambles, actually.

Yeah. He says they're villains, aren't they? Kind of indigents and robbers.

Yeah, exactly. He says they're just an absolute bunch of rogues. Apu actually says, I think we should let them come, kill them all, except for three, because three of them are worth something. They've We've got a blacksmith who makes swords, amazing swords. We should keep him. We should keep the guy who's the horse tamer because he can control these incredible beings. And quite sweetly, he says, We should keep the barber because he makes men look young again. Nice.

By shaving them?

By shaving them, presumably.

So there are people in Peru who do have beards?

I guess so. I don't know. I was thinking about this. Surely Andean's are clean shaven, surely. Relatively clean shaven.

I don't know. But I mean, because the whole stuff about bearded men coming Yeah, exactly. It's important, isn't it? I suppose a Spanish beard is larger and bulkier than an Andean beard.

An Andean beard? You never would see an Andean beard, particularly, would you?

It's always about beards, isn't it, in history?

Anyway, Atzewell was intrigued by all this, and he sends one of his senior officers called Seekinchara to investigate. Confusingly, some chronicles say Seekinchara is the same person as Apu, and some chronicles say he isn't. So listeners can decide for themselves.

It's the rich unknowability of history, isn't it?

Of the past. Seekinchara, whether he's a pooh or not, he arrives at this provincial capital called Kashas on the 10th of October, and he finds that Anando de Soto, the dashing horseman, has already arrived with a scouting party.

And who have we here?

Now, unfortunately, Sosoto is behaving very poorly. So Kashas, this place, has a college attached to its Sun temple, and the college houses 500 ayeyes, which are young women from noble families who've been chosen for their bloodline or their beauty. Basically, they will spend four years weaving cloth and brewing beer for the Emperor. They're virgins of the temple, I suppose.

Vestal virgin, an equivalent.

Exactly. Soto and his men have dragged them out into the square and are busy divvying them up among themselves. Seekinchara is appalled when he sees this, but obviously, he can't really do anything about it because he can't match the Spanish muscle. He introduces himself to Soto. Soto says, Great. When we're finished with these women, I'll take you back to Pizarro, which he does. They go back to Pizarro's camp. Seguinchara is very cool, actually. We're told he entered as casually as if he'd been brought up all his life among Spaniards. This is because, of course, he's on home territory, and he's an important person. He's used to being treated with respect. This leads me to believe, by the way, that he's not Apu, because if you'd been hanging around in the shore, pretending to sell trinkets, and then you return, you would look shame-based, I think.

But not to do him down. He's obviously a very, very cool customer. You have to have incredible courage to turn up and confront these terrible men.

He's bought them some nice gifts, though. He's brought them two pots that are shaped as forts, weirdly, and some skinned ducks. And the Spanish take the gifts. It's quite confusing, actually. The Spanish are convinced them must have some secret meaning.

They're overthinking.

So they're staring at the pot. They're massively overthinking it. They're like, Do the pots mean there are a lot of castles?

And what about the ducks?

They will skin us alive. That's what the Spanish say. They think that they're going to be skinned alive like the ducks. Actually, I think he's just given them something to eat. Anyway, Seekinchara spends two days in the camp. He makes a note of everything. Finally, he says to Pizarro, Listen, the Emperor would like you to continue to Kiamaka, and he will greet you personally. Pizarro is like, Brilliant. This is what he wants. He sends Seekinchara back. He says, Here's a lovely gift for you and for the Emperor. A nice linen shirt. We've got two glass goblets from Venice. And some scissors, and some combs, and a mirror. So back they go with the gifts. Now, important to say at this point, some people may be listening to this and thinking, Do the Incas believe that the Spaniards are gods? Which is a thing you often hear as you do about the conquest of Mexico. There was absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever. The Incas definitely didn't think they were gods.

But they thought they might be... I mean, some Incas seem to have thought they might be messengers of the gods. So the Viracocha, the creator god, call them, These are Viracochas.

Yeah, Viracochas messengers or sons of Viracocha, exactly.

And there is that Quetzalcatel stuff that you have in Mexico with the idea of bearded men coming from the sea and that these are Viracochas.

I'm not sure about that, Tom. I don't agree with that. I think for a couple of reasons. First of all, I think people end up, even in the 16th century, conflating the two conquests and taking details from one and putting them in the other as the stories are repeated and written down by other chroniclers. Basically, it's that classic thing that historians do. The myths are repeated in secondary histories, and then people stop questioning them. But the thing about, are they the sons of Viracocha or the messengers of Viracocha or whatever? This is almost certainly either a literary formula or it's a courtesy. I don't think people think they are literally sent by the gods because the way the Incas behave towards them is exactly as they would behave if they thought they were other human beings like themselves.

Yeah, accepted. But just Just to slightly push on this, the Incas are living among chaos. Their empire is being swept by plague. There is this terrible civil war, and now these peculiar people with mad animals have turned up. Is there a sense of the the ink and cosmology of different ages of cycles of time? And might this be presaging a new cycle of time? A apocalyptic sense.

I think there is. I mean, there's definitely an apocalyptic there. It's definitely a strain. There were stories of the end of the world and things like that. But you don't get a massive sense that people think this is the end of days. These people are the heralds of some terrible doom, all of this thing. I think actually most people are making much more pragmatic political considerations.

You can do both, can't you?

Rather than apocalyptic or eschatological ones. We don't have really that much evidence of people thinking in apocalyptic terms about the coming of the Spaniards, but we do have evidence about them making Machiavelian calculations about what they can do with this new variable of 168 people with the horses in particular. I think that's what Attawelpa is doing, by the way. I think Attawelpa is sitting there in Kiamaka. He's thinking about the Civil War. All the evidence, actually, for the next year or so is that that's pretty much all Attawelpa is thinking about, is the Civil War. I think he thinks these will be excellent mercenaries.

Or if he can kill them, get their horses, get the guy who can make the swords for him. Yes, of course. Is It's literally a cutting edge, isn't it?

Exactly. I think their military technology really interests him, and he thinks, Brilliant. I can use this to finish off Huascar's faction, complete my victory in the Civil War. There's no reason for him to think this is an existential threat. The Spaniards, of course, know what happened in Mexico to Montezuma. He doesn't know. He's never heard of the Spaniards before. I mean, even at this stage, they are maybe thinking a decapitation strategy. You capture the top man, maybe some of his family, some of the elite, and then you leave the empire leaderless. It worked for Hernán Cortés. It worked for your cousin, Francisco. Maybe it'll work for you.

I guess that capturing leading people is in the DNA of the Spaniards. I mean, it's in the DNA of all Christians. I mean, all that 100 years of war stuff. Capturing people and using that to get money is what European soldiers do.

Isn't it 1527? They invaded the Rome, sacked Rome, took the Pope prisoner.

Thereby causing the English Reformation.

Exactly. The Spanish are coming closer and closer, just as old Martin describes in that reading from the play. They turn inland from the Pacific and they go up into the Andes. They go up through this valley, through the cotton fields, into the canyons. They're now about 13,000 feet above sea level, so they're breathless, they're cold. It's absolutely freezing. There's no shelter. They're very, very anxious because they can see people watching them the whole time from watch towers.

I cannot imagine doing it.

It's crazy.

It just seems insane behavior.

Anando Pizarro said, They could have finished us off at any time. We couldn't use the horses on the mountain roads. Off the roads, we could take neither horses nor foot soldiers. We were completely vulnerable, snaking along these mountain passes, and the Incabs are watching us, but they're not acting. Actually, we know from what we get the sense from later chronicles and things, That some of Ateu Alpa's counselors said, Why are you letting these people come? Why not just strike now and kill them all? Ateu Alpa says to them, It is folly to be so concerned about 170 men. Let's find out who they are. What have we got to lose? Let them keep coming. He really wants to see the horses. He wants to see these guys who have strange weapons that make an explosion and everyone runs away, arquebusses and stuff. It's a bit different from Montezuma. Montezuma was in his capital, in the palace. Attawelpa is with his army. He's in a military camp with 80,000 men. Why would he be frightened about fewer than 200 men?

He's just won a very bloody civil war. No one can be in any doubt that he's ready to crush his enemies if he has to.

Right, exactly. On the ninth of November, they get another messenger from Attawelpa. The messenger brings them 10 lamas as a gift. He says, The Emperor is at the Hot Spring near Kaya Marca, outside Kaya Marker. They're five days march away. He's looking forward to seeing you. They make slow progress, and five days later, they reach the last village before the valley of Kaya Marca, which is called Xavana. They've now been on the road for 52 days, six months in total since they left the Coast because they've dallied it first. Another messenger brings them food from Ato Elpa says, You can't wait. Looking forward to seeing you. Pizarro says to his men, Right, get ready for battle now. We're pretty close. That's the 14th. The next day is the 15th. The path rises for the last in the mountains, and they reach the highest point at around midday. They look down and they see the valley of Kiamaka. It's only a few miles wide. It's very fertile. Fields of cotton plantations. They can see the stone buildings of the town glinting in the sunlight. Then beyond that, four miles behind the town, they can see this, what looks like a sea of white shapes.

These are the tents of Atahuel Pasami, tens of thousands strong. To quote one of the conquistadors, So many tents were visible that we were filled with great apprehension. We never thought that Indians, his terminology in a lot of mine, could maintain such a proud estate nor have so many tents in such good order. It filled all of us Spaniards with fear and confusion, but it was not appropriate to show any fear, far less to turn back. So Pizarro says, Come on then, let's do this. They spur their horses, and they begin to descend the path towards the town of Kiamaka. God. They approach At the wall of Kiamaka, they go through the gate. Kiamaka today is a very handsome Spanish colonial town. At the time, it was an Inca town of about 2,000 people. When they get there, there's hardly anybody there. The streets are déserted, quiet. There are no people to be seen. One Spanish memoirist said later, All we could hear was the ghostly keening of women, singing of the death that awaits the strangers who have provoked the wroth of the great Inca. I mean, that's pretty terrifying. So they press on, they go past the Sun temple, they go past another of these convents, and they emerge into this main square of Kymarka.

Now, very important for people to get this into their heads. This square is surrounded on three sides by these long, low stone buildings, which were basically 200 yards long, and each of these buildings had about 20 doors in it. Basically, what they were, they were called calancas, and they were used as dormitories for people who came through the town to work in the labor gangs or in the army, or even pilgrims arriving for a religious festival or something like that. They're there surrounded by these long, low buildings in the middle of this square, and there's no one else there. It starts to rain, and they say, Well, let's go into these buildings. They go and take shelter in the barracks.

Dominic, also, can I just ask, in the middle of this square, there's a ceremonial platform, isn't there? That's also going to play a part.

Exactly. Pizarro and his captains gather around. They have a little council of war, and they're all very nervous. There's no one here. What's going on? How could you not be nervous? Of course. I'm not knocking them.

It sounds like you're judging them.

I wouldn't be nervous.

From the heart of the Cotswold.

Yeah. He sends his lieutenant, Anando de Soto. He says, I want you to go over to Attawell, but go over to his camp, wherever he is. He's at these Hot Spring or whatever they are. Take 15 of your best horsemen. Take one of the interpreters with you. The Spanish can't agree whether it's Felipe or Martinier. I don't know the difference. Find out what he wants, what his plan is, where does he want us to stay, all of this. Soto goes off with the cavalry, 15 men, and Francisco goes for a walk with his brother Anando, and Ananda goes with him and says, I think we made a mistake, actually. You've just sent our best horsemen off to Attawelpa. But there's only 15 of them. If the Incas turn on them, it's curtains for them. Francisco says, Yeah, you're right, actually. You go after them. Take 20 more men and go after them. And Anando does. That's very lucky for us and for everyone listening to this podcast, because among the men that Anando takes are people who wrote books about it afterwards. There's a guy called Miguel de Estete, and there's a guy called Diego de Trujillo, and they both wrote long I win as accounts of the meeting, which, of course, in traditional Spanish conquistador fashion, disagree with each other on the details.

But anyway, so Anando is following Soto along the Stone Road, which goes out for four miles from the town to a place called Pultamarca. Today, it's called Banyos del Inca, the Baths of the Inca, which tells you what it was like. It's basically a spring. It's a spa. Atahuelpa is taking the waters there. To get there, they have to go pass through Atahuelpa's army, through all the tents. Estete, in his account says, We were absolutely terrified, advancing through these ranks and ranks of soldiers who are just staring at us in silence.

But having to convey a sense of cool and fortitude.

Yeah, of course. Imagine. It's like the bit in Apocalypse now when they arrive at Marlin Brando's camp and all the tribusmen are just staring at them silently. It's like that. Finally, they get through the camp and there's Atahalpa's palace building, his country house or whatever it is. The stone building with two towers, and there's about 400 warriors guarding it. All they can hear is the water bubbling in the pipe and pools of the Hot Spring. Just this deathly silence. Their interpreter says, We'd like to see the Emperor, and no one, Ateu Alpa doesn't come out. And Anando Pizarro, who's very hot-tempered, starts shouting, Tell that dog to come out.

It's lucky they didn't speak Spanish.

Yeah. Eventually, a nobleman appears, and it's their old mate, Seekinchara. There's some form of interaction, very garbled, actually. Eventually, the moment comes where they will see the Emperor. Though what's unclear from the accounts is if they go in or Atahuelpa comes out. I think they go in, actually.

Apu isn't around.

Well, Apu may be Seekinchara. This is the confusing thing. Why are all the accounts so garbled? This cuts to the confusion of the story. The Spaniards themselves are very confused because they don't really know what's going on. They don't speak a word of Ketua. They're in this new land. They might as well be on an alien planet. Weird people, weird customs, all this. Their interpreters are useless. So whoever is there, either Filippio or Martinillo, they stumble and stuff. They must be frightened themselves. They're stumbling and stuttering over their words. Actually, when they do talk to Atahalpa, Atahalpa at one point says, off the interpreter, What does this fellow mean stammering from one word to another and from one mistake to the next as if he were dumb?

How do we know he said that?

Because the interpreter must have translated.

How can we trust the interpreter if they're useless?

Well, I think it's highly unlikely you'd make that up about yourself. The Emperor is saying that I'm a useless translator. You're not going to make that up. But anyway, throughout this story runs this thread of misunderstanding, possibly deliberate misinformation. In the Aztec story, listeners will recall that Malinche may well have been manipulating the whole thing. We just don't know about these interpreters, these boys, whether they were making stuff up or whatever. Anyway, this is now the moment when they first lay eyes on the Emperor. To quote one conquistador, he was seated on a small stool, very low on the ground, as the Turks and Moors are accustomed to sit, with all the Majesty in the world, surrounded by all his women and with many chiefs near him. They describe him, probably in his early 30s. He's got long black hair. He wears his hair long because he's been injured in the Civil War in the ear, and he's covering that up.

Oh, that's bad if you're a big ear, isn't it?

Yes, I guess so. Exactly. That's probably why he grows his hair. He has a brightly-colored cloak. He's got this thing on his which is the crown, this circlet of red wool, threaded with gold, and this red tassel that hangs above his eyes. This crown is called the Mascapecha, which is the crown of the Sapa Inca. But he's sitting on the stool, and he doesn't move. He doesn't even look at them. They advance closer. Strangely, they're still on horseback. I don't quite know how this works, whether he's come out or they've gone in, but they're still on their horses because we are told Soto's horse was so close to Atta Atahuelpa, that the breath from its nostrils stirred the tassel. But still, Atewelpa doesn't show a flicker of emotion.

Well, that speaks very well of his courage, doesn't it?

Very well, because they're terrified of the horses. Soto takes a gold ring off his finger and he hands it to Atahuelpa. With the translator speaking, he says, I give you this as a token of peace and friendship. Atahuelpa puts out his hand, he takes the ring, but he still won't meet Soto's eye, and he doesn't show a flicker of emotion. Soto then gives a prepared speech. He says, I come on behalf of a mighty king, King Charles. He has appointed Francisco Pizarro as governor of these lands. Pizarro would be absolutely thrilled if you would come and see him in the town. Atahuelpa says, Nothing. And he still doesn't raise his eyes. One of his noblemen speaks up through the interpreter and says, The Sapa Inca is not going to be going anywhere. This is the last day of his ritual fast in celebration of his victory in the war, and he will not be accompanying you. And Anando Pizarro, at this point, completely loses patience. And he says, For God's sake, man, when you look at us, or whatever, he shouts at Attawelpa. And now, for the first time, Attawelpa raises his eyes to meet them.

His eyes are blazing with fury. They are implacable. If they could be cold and blazing, they're both blazing and cold. And his eyes meet theirs. And Now, at last, he speaks.

Are you leaving us on that cliffhanger?

On that, yeah. Oh, my God.

Unbearable tension. Well, we're better going to have a break and listen to some adverts or something. Unless, of course, you remember of the Restive History Club. Anyway, we will be back to find out what Adalwalpa has to say to the Spaniards. This episode is brought to you by Claude by Anthropic. Now, history lives in the contradictions.

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Yes, Dominic. I've always been fascinated by the question of how humans came to make and use fire. How did that originate? A tremendous discovery was announced just last year that the place where it seems fire was invented was Suffolk.

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Hello, everybody, and welcome to The Book Club, a new podcast from Goalhanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sandbrooke. And me, Tabitha Sierad.

As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History, and we even did a mini-series last year about all things books.

And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show. So it'll be coming out every Tuesday. We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.

And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time.

We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story. Now, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the thing. And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts, you'll be lots of great stories, and maybe Tabi, the odd laugh.

We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like the Great Gatsby or Little Women, and then also some more modern stuff.

So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamlet, all manner of exciting stories. So please join us on our journey into to all things books wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for The Book Club every Tuesday, and hopefully we will see you there.

Kennst du dieses Gefühl, wenn du eine neue Brille aufsetzt? Genau. Und jetzt stell dir vor, du erlebst es gleich zweimal. Kauf zwei Brille oder Sonnenbrille in Seestärke und erhalte das günstigere oder gleichwertige Glaspaket geschenkt. Gilt für ausgewählte Glaspakete. Alltag oder Sonne. Brille oder Sonnenbrille. Deine Entscheidung. Klick auf den Banner und entdecke zwei Hello, everyone.

Welcome back to the REST is History. It is the 15th of November, 1532. We are outside the town of Kamaka, and Anando de Soto and Anando Pizarro are face to face with the Emperor of the Incas, the redoubtable, terrifying Attawalpa with his, what was it, Dominic? His blazing and ice cold eyes. There's been a very tense standoff, and now Attawalpa has raised those blazing and ice cold eyes to meet the eyes of the Spaniards. He's about to speak, and Dominic, what does he say?

Nothing good. He says, I I've heard complaints about you from my men in the north. My captain in San Miguel is sent to tell me that you've treated the chiefs badly and threw them into chains. And he sent me an iron collar. He says that he killed three Christians and one horse. And Anando Pizarro now does all the talking. And he is a very undiplomatic man. He says, Your men in San Miguel were women. They were no better than women. One horse was enough to conquer the whole land. And when you see us fight, you will know what men we are. And Atahalpa then says, and this goes back to something you were saying in the first half, Tom. He says, I could have stopped you coming, but I chose not to. I know you are the sons of Viracocha. You are messengers from our God, King Pachekuti. You're coming was foretold by my father, Juena Capac. So I gave orders that nobody was to stop or harm you.

But you think this is fabricated by a Spaniard who is muddling it up with what Moctezuma had said to Cortés, do you? Or do you think this is authentically what he might have said?

I think there are multiple explanations of this. So one of them is he genuinely thinks they're messengers from the God King, Patrickuzzi. I think this is extremely unlikely. Nothing that Atahuelpa does, if he genuinely thought that, would he not have met their eyes earlier? Would he not be a bit more polite? I think, of course, he would behave differently if he genuinely thought that. I think there are two possibilities. One is that this is a literary flourish and that this has now become the formula that when you write a chronicle Spanish conquest of somewhere in the Americas. The King greets you with these kinds of words, and this is what the reader's like. Number two is, he does say this. Actually, I think number two is probably right. He probably does say something a bit like this, and it's a courtesy.

I would have said so, too, because who or what is viracocha to the Spaniards?

Yeah.

I mean, they don't care.

It might be embellished or whatever. I think it's a little bit like, to borrow what the great historian, Matthew Restall said about when this happened in Mexico. He said, It's a little bit like, it's an exaggerated version of when someone comes to your house and you say, Oh, do what you like, fet kom chevu, relax, enjoy. You don't really mean it. You don't mean do whatever you like. You say flowery wings to make people feel welcome. And this is what Atahalpa is doing. Anyway, when he does this, Anando moderates his tone. And he says, My brother, the governor, they always call Francisco Pizarro, the governor. Governor. Yeah, not... The governor loves you dearly. If you have any enemies, we will send horsemen to deal with them for you. With 10 horsemen, we could defeat all your enemies. Your own men will only be needed to mop up the people who run away. And Anando says this to Atahuelpa, and Atahalpa But just gives this cold smile. And Ando himself, who wrote a memoir of it, recalls he smiling as someone who did not think much of us. Of course, Atahuelpa may be very excited by this deep down because he may be thinking, These horses were a big deal.

And I could really finish off my brother's faction with these horses.

Of course, he doesn't need the Spaniards to ride them in the long run.

Exactly. Atahuelpa now says, Will you die in with me? And they say, No, we have to go back. He says, Will you'd like drinks? He gets women to bring them jugs of this beer, this chicha. Then the sun is setting and Ato Alpa says, Would you like to stay the night? And Anando says, No, we'd like to go back to our friends in the town in Kayamaka. Ato Alpa says, Okay, you can stay in these barracks around the town square. Brilliant. Then he says, I'll see you tomorrow. Tomorrow, I'll come into Kayamaka to meet your leader. But there's one more moment before they leave. Ato Alpa clearly fascinated by the horses. So Anando de Soto, dressage champion of Spain, gives him a little riding demonstration. He wheels around on this horse. We're told that Atahuelpa was amazed and amazed at seeing the agility with which it wheeled. But the common people showed even greater admiration. There was much whispering, so there's clearly a little crowd. One squadron of troops drew back when they saw the horse coming towards them. There's actually a dark side to this story. When the Spanish had gone, Atahuelpa says, Those soldiers who drew back, round them all up, please, and execute them because they showed fear, and we can't show fear at the strangest animals.

Some sources say, he said, Find their wives and children and kill them, too. I want to make sure that nobody does this again and that we don't show the slightest flicker of fear when we see the Spaniard's horses.

So end the bloodline of these cowards.

Exactly. You said that with real relish, Tom. I could see you saying that, actually. If one of our producers showed fear of a horse.

I think that'd have been a good Inca.

So night falls in Ciamarca, but the Spanish can't sleep. So Pizarro has a young cousin called Pedro, who acted as his page. Pedro described a council of war in Pizarro's quarters. We took many views and opinions among ourselves about what should be done. All were full of fear, for we were so few and so deep in the land where we could not be reinforced. Of course, let's remind ourselves, there are 168 of them. They are thousands of miles from help. There are several million people between them and the Coast, and they are basically up against 80,000 Incas camped in the tents just outside the town.

It's quite a tight corner.

Yeah, the odds are against them. I think it's reasonable to say. Pizarro encourages his men, says, Come on, we've got this. We can do this. One of the chronicles says, That night, he went around and he said, Every man a night. Every man is a night. It's very like the Kingdom of Heaven. If you've seen that film, the Orlando Bloom crusades film, where at the end, he knites everybody in the defense of this city. So even though he's saying all this, they must be thinking, Jesus, this is going to be tough. So the question is, what will they do when morning comes, when Attawelpa turns up. Now, some Spanish chronicler said later, Pizarro is hoping that Atahuelpa will submit, will agree to accept Charles IV as his Overlord, and Jesus as the Master of all. I think this is highly unlikely that Pizarro thought that would actually happen. I mean, he'd be mad if he thought that would happen. I think he was always going to use some form of violence. He knew what his cousin, Cortés, had done in Mexico. As Matthew Restall says in his excellent books about the Spanish Conquest of the Americas, standard practice was theatrical terror.

You strike first, you use surprise, you use your military technology, which is your horses, your swords, and so on. And your guns. Yeah, and your guns. You hope that that will Prevail. You can frighten people into acquiescing. This is what Pizzaro says to his men. He says, Look, we're going to take advantage of the geography. When Assa Alpa and his men arrive, we will allow them to filter into the main square. Whereas you rightly I said, Tom, there's a platform in the middle, and Assa Alpa will probably go up onto the platform or something like that. We'll see. Meanwhile, we will be in the barracks, which are on three sides of the square. Everyone will wait for my signal to burst out of the doorways. On two sides, we'll have most of the horses under Soto and my brother Hernando and the other big cheeses. They can deal with the Inca troops. On the third side, I'll be there with a smaller group of people, and our job is to snatch Attawelpa. As for the rest of the men, and we're not talking about huge numbers, you hide in the alleys around the square. When the fighting starts, try to seal off the square, and that will mean that the Incas can't escape, and they'll be at the mercy of our cavalry.

As for the signal, when Attawelpa has taken in this place in the center of the square, Pedro de Candia, the guy from Crete, the artilleryman, he can fire his guns, blow a load of trumpets, and when you hear that, it's game on, and we'll do this.

Pedro de Candia is on this raised platform.

Yes, he is. He's on the platform.

So relatively speaking, commanding heights.

Exactly right. Now, Miguel de Estete, who's one of the memoirists, describes the mood after the meeting broke up and darkness drew him. A few slept, and We kept watching the square from which the campfires of the Indian army could be seen. It was a terrible sight. Most of them were on a hillside and close to one another. It looked like a brilliantly star-studded sky. They're looking out at these campfires, these tents, and they're Absolutely. The Spanish, they're absolutely terrified. The hour's passed, they don't get much sleep. Dawn breaks the 16th of November, 1532. Atahuelpa's ritual fast is over. He and his closest friends have been drinking to mark the end of the fast. He's in no hurry to go anywhere, actually. Probably got a bit of a hangover. All morning, the Spanish wait. The Dominicans have held mass. Every Everything is ready. The tension mounting all the time. A messenger arrives mid-morning from Atahalpa's camp and he says, Atahalpa is still coming. He's coming with his men and his men will be armed. Pizarro says, Fine, you can come however he likes. I will welcome him as a friend and a brother. That's nice. Another hour goes by, no one comes.

Then another messenger arrives and he says, Actually, they've changed their mind. They're going to leave their weapons behind. Why is that, do you I genuinely don't know. I think it never really occurs to Atahuelpa that he need the weapons. He's got so many men. Yeah, I suppose. He's got so many men. I mean, the Spanish would be mad to attack him. Just thinks highly. A hundred 168 men against 80,000? I mean, you'd never do that. Still, they don't come, though. At midday, there's movement in Atahuelpa's camp, and the Spanish lookouts say the entire plain is full of men. Now, Pizarro's men all taken their places in the barracks and then hiding and whatnot. You can imagine how nervous they are now. Pedro Pizarro said, I saw many Spaniards urinate without noticing it out of pure terror. So the Incas start to advance towards the town. I quote, They all wore large gold and silver disks like crowns on their heads. They were apparently all coming in their ceremonial clothes with a livery of checkered colors like a chess board. As they march, the Incas are doing this motion to sweep the ground as if clearing rubbish off the ground or something.

They're singing a song, which the Spanish don't understand, but one of them said, It was by no means lacking grace for those of us who heard it. Half a mile outside the town, the Incas stop, and Pizarro can't believe it. He sends out an interpreter, Why have you stopped? That's where Alpa's men say, Well, we've been told to halt. It's mid-afternoon now, and the Emperor has decided he'd like to spend the night outside the city and come in tomorrow. Pizarro is horrified by that. He doesn't want the Incas right outside the town overnight because the one thing the Spanish are dreading is a night attack. He sends another Spaniard to go and implore Atahuelpa, Please come and visit us before nightfall. We won't harm you, we won't hurt you. You can come without fear. A slightly weird thing to say, why would Atahuelpa be frightened? There's no reason for him to be afraid. The Spanish are rather giving themselves away there, I think.

They are, aren't they? Yeah, It's betraying their secret thoughts.

It is. Exactly, it is. Anyway, the sun is beginning to sink, and at last, Atahuelpa moves. He advances now with about 6,000 men, leaving most of his army outside the town. His men, as they promised, have left as a where the heavier weapons behind. They've got slings, they've got stones, and they've got little axes, maybe ceremonial axes, almost. They come through the gate, they come along the street. At last, they enter the central square. The Vanguard, then the Emperor's Party, many of them wearing these big feathered headdresses and stuff, and Atahalpa himself. He is sitting, and I quote, on a very fine litter, lined with feathers of many colors and embellished with plates of gold and silver. Eighty lords carried him on their shoulders, all wearing a very rich blue livery. He was seated on the litter on a small stool with a rich saddle cushion, very richly dressed, with his crown on his head and a collar of large emeralds around his neck. Very like Montezuma on the causeway being brought out to me, Enn and Cortés.

It is amazing how many parallels between those two stories there are.

It is, isn't it? I agree completely.

You do wonder, did it actually happen, or are the two accounts bleeding into one another? They're not making it up, but- Yeah, I think the two accounts do bleed into each other a bit, actually.

I think that's what makes it quite hard to discern the truth. That said, there are enough Spanish accounts of this incident. Of course. For us not to doubt it.

The example of what Cortés did with Moctezuma is obviously an inspiration here.

Completely really. So the sun has now almost set. There are thousands of Incas in the square. Atahuelpa signals from the litter, and he's raised up high above people's heads. And one of his captains steps forward with his personal standard, as if to claim this central platform. Now, what is Atahuelpa thinking at this moment? Everything we know of him is that he is a very ruthless and proud, and if necessary, violent man. I don't think he senses any danger. I think he thinks the Spanish are a shambles and are undisciplined. I think his plan is that at some point this evening, he will take Pizarro prisoner. Possibly, he will kill him. Possibly, he will kill the Spaniards. But what he wants are the horses to use in his war. What he doesn't What he would expect is that the Spaniards won't be there. He calls out in Quechua, Where are they? Where are you? Two Spaniards come out of one of these barracks. One of them is a guy called Hernando Daldana, who had learned a little Quechua, so he could help with the interpreting. The other is the Dominican friar, Vicente de Valverde. Great to have a Valverde back on the show.

He is with one of these interpreters, either Martinio or Filippio. He is holding a cross in one hand and a prayer book in the other, and he advances towards Atoalpa. There are different accounts, very confusing accounts of what happened next, but here is, I think, a way through. Valverde kicks off by saying to Atahalpa, Would you like to come inside and have dinner with Francisco Pizarro? This is obviously a ploy to get him apart from his men. Atahalpa says, No. Atahalpa says straight away, he's less conciliatory today. And he says, I've come to tell you to return everything you've stolen since you entered my kingdom. I mean, clearly, I think he's gearing up for a fight. Valverde, who must have been very nervous, begins to recite something And the interpreter is translating all the time. And Valverdi says, I'm a Minister of Christ. And he starts gabbling about the history of the world. Jesus came into the world, crucified to save sinners. My King Charles IV has sent me to tell you all about this. You must accept Christ as your master in heaven. You must accept my King Charles the fifth, as your master on Earth.

You must become his vassal. You must give up your gods. If you don't, quote, If you refuse and seek to resist, then you and all your people will be destroyed, just as the Pharaoh of old and all his hosts perished in the Red Sea. I mean, if the translator is interpreting all this, Ateh Walpa, Ateh Walpa must have been listening to this thinking, What is this?

I can't believe he said that.

Yeah, well, of course, it just seems extraordinary.

But it's signaling how the Spaniards will cast the downfall of Ateh Walpa, right?

Of course. Now, I think what Valverdi is doing, I think what a lot of historians think what Valverdi is doing, is he is reciting a version of the requirement, which is this bizarre legal document we mentioned already that since 1513, Spanish captains are legally bound to read out to the peoples of the Americas before they kill them. Now, even at the time when the Council of Castile approved this, lots of Spaniards said, Are you mad? You're going to read this out to people before you attack them? I mean, expect them to understand it. Of course, the interpreters are useless in Ciamarca, so they're mistranslating things. Atta Welper, listening to this, must have just thought, What? Gibberish. Yeah. Now, Atta Welper is looking confused, angry, impatient. And Valverde says, Perhaps you'd like to have a look at my prayer book. Making chat.

Small talk.

Atta Welper, to stress, has never seen a book before or writing of any kind.

No, because he's only got cords with knots in, hasn't he?

Chord with knots. Valverde Valverdi gives him the book, and it's one of those books that must have a buckle or a clip or a lock or something like that on it. Atta Welper tries to open it, and he can't open it. He's never seen an object like this. Valverdi reaches out to help him. Attawelpa hits him, contempluously, manages to open the book and stares at it. We are told he looked with great interest at the construction of the book, what it was, But obviously, he doesn't know that these symbols are words or that there's a story or that they are prayers or whatever. It's just madness to him. Now, what happens next is unclear. Some people say Attawelpa threw the book down in the dust with contempt. Some say that actually, Valverde took the book back and dropped it or dropped it while handing it to him or something like this. Anyway, at some point, the book ends up on the ground in the dust, and this is the pretext that Spanish need. When the book falls, Atahuelpa shouts something to his own men, but Valverde is already running back to the barracks and he's shouting to Bizzaro, 'Come out, come out, Christians.

The dogs have rejected the word of God. That proud dog has thrown my book of Holy law to the ground. He has become a Lucifer. ' All words to that effect. That is the trigger for Pedro de Candia on the platform to fire his guns into the crowd.

At the Incas.

At the Incas. Now, of course, the Incas must have They'd seen the guns, but they didn't know what they were. So what a shock that is. Suddenly the guns, there's a huge bang, bang, bang. The Incas are reeling in the crowd. Then Pedro de Candia says, Sound the trumpets. The trumpets blast. So there's a sensory overload, and It's at that point that the Spanish horsemen burst out of the barracks on their horses. They've got their swords drawn. They're all screaming, Santiago, Santiago, which is their war cry. It's very like the bit at the end of the two towers, Helms Deep, when the riders of Rohan burst out of the fortress, cutting a sway through the Orcs. This is the scene in the square. The Spanish have tied bells and rattles to their horses' bridals to make the maximum possible noise. The Incas, of course, who are not used to horses, who are frightened of horses. Straight away, they're in total chaos. They're screaming, they're running everywhere, they're stampeding and crushing each other.

Well, it's come as a complete surprise, right?

Total surprise. The Spanish have come from nowhere. Guns, horses, this is stuff they've never seen before. The swords are flashing, the Incas are slipping and falling everywhere. There's bodies piling up, there's blood everywhere. People are literally suffocating each other in the crush and the carnage. When they get to the ends, to the gates, to the ways out of the square, Pizarro's other men are there, swords drawn to block them. Now, some of the Incas managed to break through a low wall and to get out of the square into the fields beyond. So thousands of people start streaming out into the fields. But The Spanish horsemen are following them out and the captains are shouting, and I quote, ride them down, don't let any of them escape. This is a scene of utter slaughter. The cavalry riding them down one by one without mercy, cutting them down. The whole thing takes two hours, and it is a complete and utter walkover. The Wikipedia entry calls it the Battle of Kiamaka.

But it's not a battle.

But it's not a battle. It's a complete massacre. So Spanish sources themselves said, once the cavalry had done their work and then burst out following the people who were running away, the foot soldiers went into the square and they put every single person there to the sword. During all this, no Indian even raised a weapon against a Spaniard. Atahalpa's nephew, Tito Cuzzi, who wrote his own version of events long time afterwards, said, It was said that the Spanish went about their business like slaughtermen with cattle, just killing grimly, methodically, without any pity.

I mean, that metaphor, it shows how long after it must have been for an Inca to come up with that.

Exactly. John Hemming, in his brilliant book, The Conquest of the Incas, said, How do you know how many people died? Somewhere between 2,000 and 8,000, even if you take a lower estimate. Each Spaniard must have killed probably 10, 12, 14, 15 Peruvians each. I mean, there's a lot bloodshed. It's a dreadful, dreadful story. Among the people who are killed, of course, are Atahuelpa's elite, his stewards, his servants, his friends, his counselors, his chief advisors, his chief noblemen, his chief captains, All of these people who would have been with him, they would never have thought that anything like this could happen.

So it is a complete decapitation.

Yeah, a complete catastrophe for the Inca state.

And Dominic, I have to ask, what about the Well, so right at the beginning, Pizarro and his men had made straight for the litter.

They'd been shouting Santiago as well. They hacked their way through the crowd, and Pizarro, we're told, grabbed hold of Attawelpa's left arm. But he couldn't pull him out of the litter, which, of course, has been held up quite high. Loads of Incas are clinging to the litter to stop them taking the Emperor. The Spanish, I mean, a hideous scene, are literally hacking at the Inca's arms, cutting off their hands, cutting off their arms in an attempt to get the litter down. But more Incas are rushing around to protect him. Eventually, one of the Spaniards, Miguel de Estete, who wrote a really good memoir about all this, he pulled the crown off Atahuelpa's head, and then he slashed at Atahuelpa with his knife, and Pizarro shouted, No, don't kill him. He put his hand in the way. His own man cut his hand, which is now dripping with blood. Eventually in the chaos, seven or eight Spaniards managed to weigh down one side of the litter, and they dragged Attawaba out, and they bundled him away through the chaos towards the temple of the Sun. They locked him in this temple while the rest of their comrades went about their murderous work in the square.

Then when the fighting had totally died down, they brought him out again. They dragged him to one of the barracks. He's covered with blood. His clothes are ragged, all of that. They give him new clothes.

Are they European clothes?

That, I don't know, actually. It's just says new clothes. I'm guessing maybe European clothes. Then they bring him in to see Pizarro, who, like a Bond villain, set up-We meet again, Mr. Atoalpa. Set up a table and chairs for dinner. Actually, it's interesting, the table and chairs. The Incas didn't eat with the table and chairs. Are we led to believe that the Spanish had brought a table and chairs with them?

I mean, yeah, that sounds improbable.

It's a mad detail, but so much of this story is mad. Actually, it's going to get madder. Because Atahuelpa sits down to dinner with Pizarro, surrounded by Spanish guards and servants. As John Hemmings says in his brilliant book, what a weird scene. The Spaniards are caked in blood and sweat, and Pizarro is having dinner, and Atahuelpa is sitting there, completely traumatized.

Do we know what they're eating?

I don't know what guinea pig, surely. Guinea pig? Guinea pig and sweet potatoes. Then, if that's not weird enough, Pizarro says a sentence that I don't think anyone that listened to this will expect. You'll sleep with me tonight.

Because this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

Because basically, he says to the servants, make up a mattress for the Emperor. He will sleep with me. Next to me, we will sleep side by side. And so you have this incredible scene, the most powerful man in South America, bedding down for the night right next to this illegitimate, illiterate Spanish veteran who has just pulled off one of the most amazing coups in all history.

Do you think either of them get any sleep?

I see Pizarro as a snorer, to be honest. I think it's a tough night for Atahuelpa. Night falls over Kiamaka. Outside the city in their camp, the Inca army is just in disbelief of what's happened. In the square, the Kari and crows are feasting on the bodies of the dead. And in Pizarro's quarters, he and Atahuelpa are lying a few inches away from each other with Spanish guards by the door. It has been one of the most incredible days in history. One chronicler said, Truly, it was not accomplished by our own forces, for there were so few of us. It was by the grace of God. But of course, it wasn't really the grace of God. It was the recklessness, the ingenuity, the daring of Pizarro, and the brutality of the conquistadors that had brought all this about.

I suppose the complete miscomprehension that Atahuelpa had of what he was up against. I mean, cruel and brutal, though he is as Yeah, of course.

I mean, my heart doesn't bleed for Atahuelpa, but what happened to the Incas in that square was still pretty brutal, pretty horrible. But the story, of course, isn't over because there are still only 168 Spaniards, and they are still surrounded by tens of thousands of Inca warriors, and they're still at the heart of a country of more than 10 million people who are not necessarily very friendly to them. Pizarro now has some choices to make, and we will soon find out what his plan is and what he has in mind find for Atahuelpa, Emperor of the Incas. But we won't find out until the next episode.

Members of the Rest It History Club can hear that episode right now. And a massive excitement, they will be able to get the next three episodes on Thursday. If you are not a member of the Rest It History Club, not a member of our happy band of Conquistadors, and you would like to join them, then head to therestit history. Com to sign up. But for now, adios.

Adios. Troy, The Odyssey, The Iliad, all of these great ancient epics I've picked a monumental collapse that destroyed the interconnected empires of 3,000 years ago. To understand the Bronze Age Apocalypse that Homer wrote about 400 years after it happened, subscribe to Empire World History, a fellow goalhanger podcast where we are deep diving into the biggest imperial collapse in ancient history.

To get a flavor of the series, here is a clip from our episode with none other than Stephen Fry.

It is one of my favorite subjects, the story of the Greeks and the Siege of Troy and Odecius's Return Home, of course. I say Greeks, Homo called them the Acheans, the Deneians, the Argives. The word Greeks is a much later one, but it refers really to the Mycenaians, that warrior aristocracy, essentially, obsessed with honor and reputation that would give them an eternal glory, a kleos, as they call it. It's the kleos. It's in the name of so many Greeks, Cleopatra and all the-I haven't worked that out. That's the same word. Heracles, who's Hercules, here as glory. He was actually named Heracles because she hated him, because he was a love child of Zeus, and she never liked Zeus's love child, her husband, her errant husband. As an attempt to placate her, Tresias, because he was born in Thebes, suggested that he change his name, as a baby this was, to Heracles, the glory of Hero. It didn't help much. It didn't help at all. Then Athena even put her on Hero's breast when Hero was asleep because it would bond them if he suckled her milk. But she woke and saw it and tossed him away, and her breastmilk spread across the sky to form the milky way.

I didn't know that story.

Yes. Because galaxy, of course, is from the Greek for milk, galactic, as in lactic. So The chocolate makers are right. Anyway, this is completely separate. Keep going.

Don't stop. Well, we really hope you enjoyed that clip. Hear more on the Bronze Age Apocalypse and how it shaped the ancient Greek epics. Just subscribe to Empire wherever you get your podcasts. Anthony Scaramucci here. As much as I love talking politics, and let's be honest, it sometimes gets me in trouble. My other and probably safer passion is books. We just dropped our 200th episode on my podcast, Open Book, Another Goalhanger Show. And to celebrate, we spoke with none other than Waterstones and Barnes & Noble CEO, James Dawn. Let's take a listen. It's a phenomenal piece of technology, James. Everything has changed. Our phones have changed, our computer. When we look at the TV, the book is a 500-year-old piece of technology. You think in 500 years it'll be with us, James? I think so. And I think it's astonishing simply how extraordinarily How durable it is and effective it is.

And as you say, newspapers, we don't read them anymore.

It's on your iPad, it's on your phone. Music, the format changes all the time, not with books. I think when publishers also concentrate on the physical attributes of a book as well, they are lovely things and treasures forever. There may be too many books being published right at this moment. Do you believe that? Tell us why. Far, far too many books, and it's getting ever, ever worse. This is speaking as a bookseller who crafts a physical space, so I only have so much space, and there's more and more and lots of self-publishing. Nothing wrong with writing a book and wanting to see it out in the world. But for myself, I have to curate all the time. The bit that I regret is that people get upset with me for not carrying their book.

Well, I just can't.

I don't have the space for it. That's really what I mean. The fact that they sell on Kindle or they sell on Nook or online is fine by me.

I want people reading, but I myself have to curate. The reality is that I can't take the vast majority of books that are published.

I hope you enjoyed that clip. To hear more from James Dawn and others, subscribe to Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci wherever you get your podcast.