Transcript of Your Future Is Worth the Sacrifice New

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today.

Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is The Ramsey Show. And I'm Rachel Cruze hosting this hour with Jade Warshaw, and we are answering your questions about life and money. So give us a call at 888-828-1412. Up first, we have John in Anchorage, Alaska. Nope, wrong one. Hold. There we go. Hey John, how are you?

I'm doing great. How are you guys?

Hi, we're doing great. How can we help?

So my aunt— this is such an odd story— has been scammed for about $100,000 by my biological brother.

Oh my gosh.

I did not think that you would say it was flesh and blood.

It sure is. And, um, he's actually— he's been living with her, um, and us and the family all just found out about this very recently. And, you know, we found out she was 3 months behind on her mortgage. Um, we are partially caught up on that. Um, and she's only making— you know, she's on Social Security and retirement. We're just trying to figure out how we can fix the situation. We've already removed him from the situation and we're just trying to figure out like, all right, how do we go forward?

So how did he do it? Did he get her to put money in some account? Was he forging her signature on things? Like what? How did it happen?

All of the above. He actually, he not only, you know, got money out of her by asking and by kind of manipulating, but he also, you know, forged her Social Security number and her information to open some accounts.

Over what period of time did this happen? Was this over the course of years, or did this happen relatively fast?

Over the last 12 to 16 months, I want to say.

Okay, so was he caretaking for her? Was he taking care of her? Like, what was the nature of their relationship together?

No. So, um, she has basically raised me and my brother as kids. And, um, you know, after I moved out, my brother stayed. So my brother's lived with her since he turned 18. He's only 24, I think he's 24 and she is 76. She's my great aunt.

Oh man.

I'm so sorry this happened. So where does this leave her? It's $100,000 that she's been tricked out of, deceived out of. Uh, she's got Social Security. What, uh, what other assets does she have?

Um, so she has her house, which obviously isn't paid off, but I think she, she owes like $260,000 on it and she's got, I think it's worth $500,000-ish. Um, so she's got a lot of equity in that. Um, she owes, Probably about $100,000 in credit cards, partially from him, partially from her, just, you know, old people credit card stuff, right? Um, okay, well, and then have you guys pressed legal charges against him, John? So what we did is we went in and we filed a restraining order against him so we could get him removed from the house. Um, he has been served with that by the police. There's a court date coming up soon, and we will, um, We'll essentially be pleading our case and saying, hey, we want to get a long-term protective order against him or against him from her. And we basically are just trying to keep them away from each other. I think my aunt still partially believes that he's going to give her this money back.

Well, have you disputed— it sounds like the credit cards, he did that. Have you disputed that with the creditors?

And fraud, as for the creditors, we haven't dug deep enough into that. It's all very recent, but we have dug into her bank account, at least those things, and we fixed a lot of her overdraft charges. So she's like got $0 in her account, you know, but all of her bills are at least paid now. She's still behind on her mortgage and behind on some of her other payments, but I mean, he was taking out quick cash loans in her name with her Social Security number.

Wow.

So can you clarify something for me? Was she giving— was he stealing access just because he could see things laying around the house, or was she giving him access and she just didn't know what he was going to do with it?

I think it's a little bit of both. Um, I think he got her Social Security number from her when they were doing a loan document together. She's co-signed on things for him before.

Okay.

And then he took that and ran with it.

Exactly.

So her name is on all the credit cards. Is his name on the credit cards too, or he just opened them in her name and he spent the money?

It's all— everything is in her name. Um, you know, even the quick cash accounts.

Okay.

Yeah. So what I would do is I'd probably pull her credit report. Put a freeze on it too, just because he has—

We did do that.

Good. Okay.

We did freeze it.

Good. So pull that credit report and it's gonna take you guys, it's gonna be so frustrating, but going through line by line of this debt to see what is, what did she take out? Because you said she has some credit cards from old lady credit card debt is what you said. Figure out like, yeah, what really is hers from an amount standpoint and an account standpoint. Whatever she did not sign up for, I highlight that and I would not pay on that because what you guys can do is go and, um, you know, with, with the court order is, you know, to, to send letters to these companies to say it was fraudulent and that she, she should not be held responsible to these. And so from a legal—

Gotcha.

Perspective. But now I am curious, John, in order for all of that to go through, I don't know where the law steps in on his side, right? To actually press charges that there was a criminal intent.

And then you— And that's the part. Yes.

That you take that and that's how she, like, if that is the case, and I'm not sure, and I think every state's law is different, but if you have to have like a juncture, you have to have press charges against him in order to not pay these bills, you guys may have to go through criminally to, yeah, I would think to convict him so that she doesn't owe 75 of the thou— $100,000, right? That she probably was, right, was stolen from.

Yeah. I might speak to a lawyer about this and find out what the best course of action is because I mean, it's one 100%, uh, criminal.

Yes.

You know what I mean?

Yes.

And I might also contact Guardian Litigation. They might be able to help you going forward to sort some of this out and fight some of these battles for you. Um, yeah, this is really, really tough. So is she facing today— is she okay financially or is she struggling to make ends meet at this point?

She's definitely struggling to make ends meet. Like, she's able to— she's now going forward, since we've kind of fixed everything, she's able to go forward at least making her bills, but she doesn't have really anything at all left over. But she's also wanting to pay on those quick cash loans and all those other things. And so, I think you're right. Talking to an attorney would be the best course of action. And then, we did file a report with the FTC.

Good.

We just looked it up and kind of filed whatever they said and tried to give as much information as possible. And we haven't heard anything back yet. We don't know how all that works. So, we're just kind of keeping an eye out, I guess.

Yeah, I think I wouldn't pay anything on this until I've filed these charges correctly, until I've spoken to a lawyer to figure out what the next course of action is. I think if I'm in your shoes, um, I'm making sure that her day-to-day is okay and that she's able to, like I said, make ends meet. And then I think this is just going to be a long web that you guys have to untangle, unfortunately. And it's just probably the more layers that you uncover, the more And from a rela— Unsavory it's going to be.

Yes. And from a relational standpoint, it's so sad that he took advantage of this woman who cared for him.

Terrible.

And helped raise him. And so there is that relational aspect too, which is just so hard to face, I would assume, Jon.

I think the worst part about it is she really wants to keep trying to contact him and talk to him and make sure he's okay.

Yeah.

I mean, out of the goodness of her heart, she is, but I would, yep, stay far away until things are cleaned up in order to rebuild trust in a relationship, which is a whole other tactic. But yeah, I would not, any level of her enabling that relationship, for sure, John, you're probably gonna have to, you probably have a way clearer head than she does to step in and make sure that he doesn't continue to take advantage, which doesn't sound like he can, but oh man, what a mess.

If your business is making 7 figures or more, you should be proud of that. But that growth probably brought a mess with it. Systems that don't talk to each other. It's impossible to track down your numbers because they're scattered everywhere. That's a visibility problem. And NetSuite has solved that problem for more than 44,000 businesses like yours. NetSuite brings financials, inventory, CRM, and more into one place. And their AI tool, NetSuite Next, builds AI into everything, automating busywork like forecasting demand and chasing down overdue accounts. It's not complicated to use. You just ask it questions like you're talking to a person. And you're not starting from scratch because NetSuite is built on leading practices from thousands of businesses preloaded and ready to go. Ramsey Solutions switched to NetSuite years ago. It helped us know our numbers and we've never looked back. If your revenue is at least 7 figures, try NetSuite Next for free at netsuite.com/ramsey. That's netsuite.com/ramsey, or click the link in the description.

Up next, we have Renee in Charleston, West Virginia. Hi, welcome to the show.

Hello.

Hello.

Thanks for calling in. How can we help?

Um, we are trying— me and my husband are trying to do the Baby Steps. And we cannot get through the first one because I struggle with impulsive spending and I don't know how to get past this. I'm in counseling for it. What they're telling me isn't really working, so I'm draining every bit of extra money we have because I want to buy stupid stuff.

What are the counselors telling you? What have they told you to try? What have they told you to do?

Um, give all of my husband my credit cards, my debit cards, but the problem is I memorize numbers.

Okay.

Or I save them on my phone.

Why do you do it?

I've been in counseling for about a month.

Why, why do you spend impulsively?

I have struggles.

I have a bad past from abusive relationships, and I met my husband who doesn't tell me no on anything, coming from a place where I had to ask even to go out to dinner with my parents.

Mm-hmm.

So he doesn't tell me no, and I feel safe enough with him to spend money to get everything that I want or need. But now it's like I'm a stay-at-home mom, we have 5 kids, um, and he's the only one that works. And we're trying to do better, but I'm draining the accounts, and I don't— it just fills a void in me. I can't explain it. It just feels this emptiness in me. When I spend money.

Yeah.

Because I mean, there's a true, you know, something chemical sense that's happening when you spend, you get a dope, you, you're getting a hit from it, right?

Yeah.

Just like a gambler would placing a bet or an alcoholic with a drink. Like, like you're, you're getting something even from a physical standpoint that feels good, right? So it's not even just the stuff. Mm-hmm. Because once you get the stuff, what do you do with it?

Um, nothing. It usually goes in the drawer and I don't even use it.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, so I think, yeah, starting, and I, and you know, if Dr. John Delony was here, he could pick this apart.

Yeah, for sure.

For sure.

And if that makes sense, um, John. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, um, but I do know, you know, things that I, I've heard him say for sure, which I think is true, and this is probably true for any, you could say, bad habit to addiction on that scale, is have things in place that that actually you repurpose that energy. Like, what else can replace when you have that compulsive need to get on the phone and to buy something? What can you replace that with? Right. And so there can be, you know, like, and I've heard John say this, this is why they have donuts at AA meetings genuinely.

Yeah.

Because like there's a sugar hit that's like, okay, like we're get—

like we get something when we come here.

What else can you? Yes. And so obviously the healthy, patterns would be going for a walk, calling a friend, right? And sometimes, yeah, those are amazing if you can do these things, but what else in your life can you go to when that compulsion comes to replace it?

Oh gosh.

And so what, what would be a couple of things that you're like, okay, if I, cuz I do think the counselor is right. I think having, not having access, um, yeah. Stopping the access point, which I know you memorized numbers, you said, so that doesn't help. But yeah. Um, but I mean, like, that's, that is one train that I would say to go down. What can you eliminate? You know, From that standpoint, but then also when that comes, what do you do with that?

Yeah.

That feeling.

And I think, Renee, even if you can get a step ahead of it, if you're starting to, if you can look back on the times that you've spent, whether it's like, oh gosh, I jumped on Amazon or I ran over to Target, or I'm, I'm not sure what your spending location of choice is, but if you can think back and spend some time and go, what happened just before that? Was I bored? Triggered it? Did I get some bad news? Did my husband go to work and I felt abandoned? What, what was it specifically?

That's really the big one, is feeling abandoned.

And there you go.

And yeah, so I feel like I need to spend— I mean, it's not even just like going to Walmart or Target and buying something. It's I get bored of my car and I go trade it in for another $37,000 loan.

Yeah, it's like bad stuff.

And I think— and that's the thing I want you to discuss with your therapist, because the truth is In a situation like this, the truth is, Renee, we would say that somebody who's got a gambling addiction, any kind of addiction, it could be gambling, spending, pornography, whatever. To that extent, we would say they'd need a separation from the money. And in his case, yeah, he would need to change the numbers on the card cuz you already know it.

Yep.

Yep.

And that's the extreme. But I can't tell you that on the phone today because I also, you've already told me something about your past that is in direct relation, like conflict with that. So I would bring that to the therapist and say, I spoke to some money experts and they were saying that in this situation, normally I wouldn't have access to money. Something about that feels right, but how do I navigate that knowing that I came from this past where I was completely controlled? And that becomes—

Yeah.

The topic of the therapy. But the truth is you are an alcohol— an alcoholic who's in a bar right now and you've got money to spend on drinks. And so, it makes sense that that needs to be taken away from you.

Well, me and my husband even discussed, like, he will never— like, we've had the same bank account. I mean, we've been on the same ones since we've been married. But now, it's like, we both want to do this, and I'm totally for getting our lives in order and becoming debt-free. And he's like, should I get another bank account? And just to— because like I said, I'm a stay-at-home mom and he works. He makes the money, and here I am just spending it. Nobody's business. Should he get a bank account with just him on it and I have no access to it?

Well, yeah, for, yes, for a period of time.

Yes. And that's the thing, only it's, it's for a period of time while, while you get well.

Yes.

So there needs to be really clear parameters around that. What are the steps that need to take place, uh, for you to get care? What is, what does success look like? Mm-hmm. Right. And just have really clear definitions and boundaries around what positive movement forward looks like and what it has to look like for you to then gain access back. And then when you do gain access back, access back. It's not all at once, it's little by little, right? So there needs to be such clear structure around this plan from all angles, and I think that will help you, uh, deal with it. And you cannot feel a certain way because of your past, right?

And you can have a say in that.

He's even tried going to like— he's told me no. He's taken the cards. He's, he's working towards it to better us. He would never like tell me no if it was something that we absolutely needed.

Sure.

Then I go and run to my parents and I'm like, hey, I really want this.

And they need to be on the same page. So that means they need to be part of the plan too. This is almost like an intervention where the whole family or everyone that you have gone to for money understands this is a real issue. It's like if you were on drugs, the whole family knows what's going on. Don't give her money. That's gonna throw her back in her treatment. But I commend you, Renee. I commend you because you know you have an issue. You're calling and you're seeking help.

Yes.

I was gonna say the courage it takes for someone, I mean, honestly, to raise their hand and the admission of it. Like, you're consciously very aware of what's going on. And that's the wild thing though about addiction.

I'm like, I knew.

I literally looked at my husband the other day. I didn't even say like, hey, how was your day? He walked in from work and my first words outta my mouth were, can we go spend money? Not, can we go to the mall and look for new clothes? It was, can I just go spend money? To that point now where it just fills this void in me. And this emptiness is when I see him and I wanna feel secure and safe. I'm like, well, let's go spend money because you've been at work all day and I've been alone with the kids.

Yep.

Take me to spend money. You know?

How long have you guys been married?

Um, 9 years.

Okay. Because I do think as well, when, when that action stops and you don't, and he comes home from work and you guys don't spend money, then what you're forced with then is to be in a home where it's quiet. There's not excitements happening.

Right.

And you have to actually be with each other. And that's work in and of itself, right? I mean, that's a whole new dynamic that you're not numbing anymore. You're truly gonna have to sit with Renee. And that's probably some of the scariest, you know, parts of this journey is reconciling who you are in the quiet. And, and I think your therapist, I, I pray you have a great counselor.

I do.

It's wonderful.

Good. I'm so glad because I do very much agree with the tactical side of this, of cut it off at its source. And you guys put some, just like what Jade was saying, and you be in on this discussion, Renee, like you and your husband sit down and lay out, okay, for 90 days, no questions asked. There's no, you can't have any access.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? We're cutting up the cards, we're changing accounts, no access. And this is not out of harm. This is out of a healing process. And both of you sign your names. This is for the good of Renee. In 90 days, let's look up and see, okay, where are we at? How are we feeling? Do we need to extend it? Do we not? And you just continue to walk this journey. And he needs to speak to you, Renee, of how to rebuild trust with him.

Yes.

Because he doesn't trust you right now, as he shouldn't, right? And so, for that part of your marriage to be healed. So, that's another, redemptive part of the story that I pray, I pray happens.

And your counselor, you should almost not like your counselor because they hold you so accountable. You almost shouldn't like them.

If you're serious about building a business, you need an easy way for customers to buy from you. Yeah, that sounds obvious. But a lot of business owners leave money on the table, not because their product isn't good, but because the buying experience is broken or complicated. Shopify fixes that. With Shopify, you can build a professional storefront and get it in front of your customers fast. No coding, no technical headaches. And when your customers are ready to buy, Shopify's purple Shop Pay button is one of the best converting checkouts in the world, which means fewer abandoned carts and more sales. And if you hit a snag, Sidekick, Shopify's built-in AI assistant, is there to answer questions and keep you moving. You've got enough to think about just running your business. The last thing you need is to lose sales because the buying experience lets you down. All you need is the idea. Shopify handles the rest. Start your free trial at shopify.com/ramsey. That's shopify.com/ramsey. shopify.com/ramsey.

Part of winning with money is taking control of it and knowing where you're ending income is going. And so EveryDollar is our, it's not only just our budgeting app, but it really is your entire financial roadmap. And it helps guide you to know where you're starting from to where you need to end up. And so make sure to download it for free in the App Store or Google Play, and it will walk with you every single day when it comes to your money. It's an amazing app and it's something to, yeah, to literally have in your back pocket since it's on your phone, but it's so convenient and it's so great and it helps create such great habits for you and your money. All right, let's go to Rob in Kansas. Hi, Rob. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Yes, absolutely. How can we help?

I'm kind of nervous and embarrassed about this. I just recently tried to start getting rid of all my debt. Got quite a bit of it, but I've got one debt in particular that I'm spending $311 payment a week, and that's $1,200 a month. That's really hindering me trying to pay anything else off and get caught up. I called my bank to do like a debt, a small debt consolidation loan to get rid of this, uh, rent-to-own payment pretty much is what it is.

Mm-hmm.

And, and, uh, if I, by doing this in my mind, I'm freeing up about $800 to $900 a month if I wipe this out, and I can apply that to all my other debt to accrue, even though this, this rent-to-own debt is not the smallest.

How much is it, uh, the total?

Um, the total is $3,426 and about 15 cents, I believe.

Okay, and you said it's not the smallest. What else do you have?

Um, I've got my truck payment, my wife's truck payment.

Okay, what's that?

My truck payment is a buy here, pay here place because my credit is not the greatest, but that's $210.

What's the total loan?

Um, that, um, the total loan on that's $18,000.

Okay, what else?

My wife's truck is $4,000, and that's, uh, yeah, it's about $4,000 on hers.

Okay.

And is there anything else?

Um, there's a lot of other smaller stuff, and it all equals up to about— including the one I'm trying to get rid of— all equal up to about $27,000.

$27K total.

Okay.

How much are you guys bringing in every month? The total, the Between the two of you?

Well, that's the tricky part because I work in the construction industry and I'm a truck driver. I average, I can either get 50 hours a week, 60 hours a week, 70 hours a week. It depends. It's weather depending.

Sure. Well, on average, Rob, what would you say?

On average, I bring in probably $1,300, $1,400 a week and my wife brings in about $600 a week.

Okay, now for you, do you have more— I mean, just be honest because we want to help you. Do we— do you have more of the 70-hour weeks, or do you have more of the like 30-hour weeks or less?

I would say on average I probably average out between 60 and 65 hours a week.

Okay, good. What about her?

Uh, she's just straight 40.

Okay, okay. So it's about $8,400-ish a month, would you say?

Sounds about right, give or take. Yeah.

Yep. Um, so the thing with the debt consolidation, it, they may get you a better interest rate cuz those rent-to-own rates can just be horrible.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, but it doesn't wipe away the debt. You do understand that, right? I mean, you said it'll get it, it'll get it off my back, but like it, it still is around. You still have to pay it. Mm-hmm. Yep. So, So by working that, 'cause it is one of the smaller ones, I mean, it's only $3,000. The other 2 that you, or the other 3 you gave us is larger. I know you have some other ones, but since I would, man, I think I, Rob, I would still list out all of the debt.

Yeah.

I think you need to look at it on paper. Smallest, even if it's a $400 credit card, you know, balance that you keep rolled over month to month, like whatever it is, And you guys start attacking that smallest to largest. That really is probably gonna be the most effective way for you all to get out. How much is your rent or mortgage a month?

We pay $1,900 a month in rent.

Okay, 'cause I'm just wondering how much could really be freed up realistically for you guys. I mean, could it be $3,000 to $4,000? And you guys live on nothing, like ramen noodles. Like you're not, like you are spending no money.

Uh, we're kind of doing that right now.

Okay. And how much—

And that's why I was thinking about using my car as collateral to get this loan to—

No, no, no, no. Because if you free up $4,000 next month, Rob, you just pay, you could pay off the $3,000. Like, I'm not saying you necessarily do that in that order, but like, where is this margin going?

Yeah.

Do you have kids?

I got 2.

Okay. Are they in daycare?

No, they're both high schoolers and take up quite a bit of money because of the school activities they're in.

Okay. So let's stop there because I'm glad you said that. Because I'm looking at this, I'm going, okay, based off the numbers you gave, you're making around $7,800, $7,600 a month. If we take out the $1,900 for rent and mortgage, we take out the $1,300 for the, the, the rent-to-own, uh, you said the truck was somewhere around $200. So we take that out. There's still a lot of margin there. Um, $4,300 of margin.

$200 a week.

$200 a week. Okay, so I'll take out the rest. And then, but I'm still seeing $3,700 of margin. What's your wife's truck payment?

Uh, $200 a month. And then we, we actually have some collections that I've been paying on.

Okay.

That are a monthly payment as well, ranging anywhere from—

Okay, uh, so those are 2—

there's 2 things that I see that you can do immediately that's going to help. Number one, I want you to go through your budget with a fine-tooth comb because you've given me your biggest expenses and you still have a lot of margin after those biggest expenses. You mentioned having kids that are in sports and this and that. You've gotta put some boundaries around that. If you, if you are telling me that your main priority is I wanna pay off this $27,000 debt, then that means the kids have to know their main priority is not all the sports and all the activities and all the this and that. Sure, maybe they play sports, but you've gotta put boundaries on some of the other things around that. And so you guys are gonna have to really tighten this for a short period of time in order to make it right. And then the, the stuff that's in collections, stop paying minimum payments and just settle it.

Yes.

And just stack up your money and say, if the debt, uh, the collections debt is for $800, say, I can give you $200 to call it done. I can give you $300 to call it done. And don't whittle away at it cuz it's just gonna take forever doing that. Stuff's already, it's already been charged off. It's already a bad debt. Just settle it, get it in writing beforehand, and then those are cleared out. How many of those do you have?

Uh, about 10, 11.

What do they total?

One of them totals about $7,000.

Yeah, or $700?

About $7,000.

Okay.

It's 3—

another 3 line of credits One is about $3,500. One is about $1,100. The other one is about another $2,500 to $3,000. And they've already stopped calling us and everything on that one. And then I've got a couple other ones that one is $2,300 and another one is $2,600. And those I'm making minimum payments on.

And yep. Okay. So it's more than $27,000.

Way more.

So, so Rob, here's what we calculated was $27,000.

Okay, well, with the car loan of $18,000 and, or, and $14,000, you got $22,000 there.

Uh, we didn't calculate my truck into that debt.

I don't know why not, because it's still debt. Here's what I've calculated so far. You've got $39,526 of debt. That's including your rent-to-own, your truck, your wife's truck, And these, the few collections that you named off, you told me you had 10, but you only named off 1, 2, 3, 4 in detail. So you probably have more than 39,000. My guess is maybe closer to 50,000.

So Rob, here's the deal. You, you, you guys are gonna have to have a massive emotional switch.

Yep.

The whole family. Like we're sitting down tonight and it's like, kids, there's no Christmas. They're like, we're doing nothing for one solid year. Cuz Rob, if you, For one solid year, if you put $4,000 and you pay off debt.

Yes.

$4,000 a month, and you go get an extra job for one year, all of this is cleaned up, and you stop taking credit every time someone blinks, and you're taking out another loan. Like, you know, when you stop it and you go intense the other direction, you can be out. You really could be out. There is a mathematical way. We see it, and we know it's possible for you, but you guys are gonna have to make that decision.

If you want to free up margin in your budget, one of the first things you should do is take a hard look at your monthly bills, because every dollar you overpay is another dollar you don't have for reaching your financial goals. And overpaying for your phone bill, well, that makes zero sense. And it's why I recommend Boost Mobile. Their unlimited plan is just $20 $25 a month forever. No contracts, no hidden fees, no surprise price hikes. If you already have a phone you love, you can keep it and keep your number when you switch. And if you're skeptical, Boost Mobile offers a 30-day money-back guarantee so you can try it risk-free. Listen, your phone bill should fit your budget, not the other way around. Reaching your financial goals is easier When you can pay less for the same service? Switching to Boost Mobile now is just a smart money move. Go to boostmobile.com/ramsey and make the switch today. That's boostmobile.com/ramsey.

$25 forever requires customers to remain active on Boost Mobile Unlimited Plan.

Your feedback on the show is very helpful to us and our team, so make sure to leave a comment below from where you're listening or watching, and subscribe to all of our channels, and even send the episode out to a friend that may need it. If you're thinking about somebody in your head and it's like, huh, they'd probably enjoy this, go ahead and send it their way. All right, let's go to Gretchen in New York City. Hi, Gretchen. Welcome to the show. Hi, Krystalina.

Um, hello, thank you for taking my call.

Yes, absolutely. How can we help?

Well, um, I am a single woman that is 72, almost 73 years old. I am retired but have been working in my field as a contractor post-retirement, and, um, I just lost that contract that, you know, federal government thing, and it's done. And so I'm vacillating between panicking and trying to get another job soon or enjoying my retirement and my grandchildren. And I just don't know if I'm okay or if I'm trying to talk myself into it or if I'm not and I should go out and find another job really quick.

Okay.

Well, how much do you have in retirement savings that you would live off of?

I have, um, my Social Security and my small pension I live off of. Plus, you know, I was working. I have those continuing to come in. And then I have a, um, an IRA that I have not yet drawn on, but, um, my, um, minimum requirement is coming up soon. And I was going to— my birthday's in January and I was going to start drawing on them in January.

How much is in the IRA?

$272,000.

Okay.

And what is your, um, RMDs with that? Um, how much—

I don't know the answer to that.

How much they're going to force you to draw out? Okay.

But I know that I already talked to my financial advisor and we decided I would take $18,000 pre-tax, about $1,500 a month to augment my Social Security and my How much, um, pension—

how much is Social Security and how much is pension per month?

My Social Security is just a couple of hundred, a couple dollars shy, like $50 or so shy of $3,000.

Okay.

Um, and, uh, my, um, no, that's not right. I just lied about that. That's pre-tax. I have it taxed.

Okay.

Um, it is about $20,000, my total. With my small pension is that amount.

I'm a couple.

I'm about, um, $2,950 with both my pension and my Social Security.

Gotcha.

Okay. Gotcha.

And what is it? Uh, how are you living? Are you in a mortgage? Is the house paid on? Do you still have payments? Tell us about your living situation.

I have a mortgage. It's a— I have $140,000 left on the mortgage. It's kind of a new house for me. I bought it a couple of years ago. Um, and I don't have a lot of debt, but I've got a little. Well, I have debt, but I have about $5,000 on an interest-free loan left on some improvements I did to the house when I first moved in. And I have enough money in savings that if I don't pay it off monthly, I can make sure it's paid off by its term date, which is March of 2027.

What is in savings? What liquid cash do you have?

My liquid cash is about $14,000.

Okay.

So we'll call that your emergency fund. So I just want to make sure we're not leaving anything out. It's just— it's the $217,000 in the IRA, it's your Social Security and pension, $2,900.

$272,000. $272,000. Got it.

$272,000.

Okay, I'm glad I checked.

IRA, about $14,000 in savings.

Um, the mortgage and the $5,000 loan.

And one other big thing, I bought a car.

Oh girl.

Come on now, what did you spend on this car?

Oh, I was working, I was scrambling.

That means you spent a lot.

I did, I did, I did.

I bought a brand new car. It's— I wanted a hybrid. It's, uh, it's a Subaru Forester, a '25, and I have a car payment on it. And you know, I must say in my defense that, uh, I keep my cars forever, and I thought it would be my last car at this age.

Yes, but it's That car, if you keep that car, that's going to keep you from retiring when you want to.

How much is the loan total? How much did you take out?

I owe about $29,000 on it still, and my payments are $635.

So, Gretchen, I love you. Uh, we gotta make a change, girlfriend. We gotta, we gotta make a change because the work that you're doing now Can't— how, how, how long could you do this job realistically, assuming you have good health?

I have great health. That's the thing. I actually like working. Mm-hmm. Um, keeps me busy. But, you know, being home, I mean, I, I like being home too.

Yeah. How much?

So, um, I have grandkids and stuff.

Sure. How much were you making before you got laid off, Gretchen? How much were you making?

I, so far this year, well, last year in 2025, In it, I, I made $47,500.

Okay.

And, um, this year I was poised to make more if I had worked the year out, probably about $65,000.

I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna lie, I have some worries. My worries are the, the debt, number one. Um, I don't love you going into a retirement with $272,000 and debt payments because it's just— it hurts my heart to know that you would be taking pulling from your IRA and then taking that money to pay off a car loan. That hurts my ever-loving soul.

Mm-hmm. And so, oh yeah, I don't wanna do that.

But that's essentially what you would be doing. So I, I see a couple of things that have to happen. We've, we've gotta, we've gotta pay off this debt or we've gotta downsize this car significantly. Maybe a $15,000 car, not a $30,000, something like that.

Yeah, I, I know that was a bit of a misstep. I thought I'd still be working, but But at this point, I'm only 1 year into the loan and I don't know if I'd get my money back.

You may not. You may be under just a little bit.

I'm not going to lose money on the car.

Yes, but you are losing money the longer you keep it. It's going to continue to depreciate, number one, and you bought a brand new car and that is going to depreciate quickly. And so there's just part of this that we call over here, it's kind of just a stupid tax. When you do something and you later on realize what it costs you, you go, oh my gosh, I wish I hadn't done that. That's spilled milk. We can't go back. But the truth is, what I really want to know is between the pension, do you— I mean, gosh, you have to take those required minimum distributions. Ah, do you need—

Yeah, I have to start taking it.

Do you need— ah, let's see here. Oh boy, I'm just, I'm worried for you without having an income.

I know. I would say, Gretchen, I would probably be working another couple of years.

Okay, that's what I wanted.

That's exactly why I called you. You know, I'm talking in my head to myself sometimes on the left side and sometimes on the right. And I'm like, well, maybe I can just be more frugal, um, with my shopping. And, um, yeah, I'm not much of a big shopper.

My big stores are, um, um, but let me, Gretchen, I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you clear homework. Gretchen, this is your homework. You need to find a new job because unfortunately you need to work. And I want you to have some earned income because I still want you investing. I still want you putting away in a Roth IRA. As long as you can, because you need as much money as you can get your hands on. And I'm gonna tell you this, I don't necessarily think you're gonna take my advice, but you can't have a $600 car payment every month. You just can't. I think you need to get out of the car that you have, and I would take some of the $14,000 liquid and I would buy myself a cash car.

Yes. Because Gretchen, our rule of thumb is that you should not have anything with wheels and motors that's more than half of your annual Um, income.

Yeah.

And you made $47,000 and took a $30,000 car. So it is too much car for your life.

Well, that was just—

I was also, I was also counting in my, the other $3,000 a month that I was getting from Social Security.

Even still, even still, that puts you at $51,000 and it still doesn't fit.

Yeah, that is not— you're right. So let's, I'll wait till my car dies and I have to buy a car.

Let's sell the car that you have. The longer you wait to sell The more likely that you have to possibly be upside down on it. So let's get, I mean, if I, it'd be my homework this weekend. I'm going car shopping. I have $14,000 or $15,000 that I have to spend.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm getting a new car. I'm, I'm selling the one I have and I'm getting a new one. And so that is going to free up a lot of margin, $600. And now we can get at paying off this $5,000 loan. That's thing 3 on your list. And if you do that, Now we have actual margin. We can start to invest a little on the side. Plus we're having an income coming soon, hopefully. Yes.

Yep. Yes, yes. And have that flowing. And Gretchen, remember too, a good rule of thumb is your investments double every 7 years without you even touching 'em. So in 7 years, that could be close to $600,000 in your IRA, right? I know you're gonna be taking some money out, but you're also hopefully putting some money back in, but it will start to grow over time. Which is a good thing in your situation so that you can retire. But the next couple of years, it's probably gonna be some working.

Oh yeah.

When you take your car to the shop, you're probably thinking 2 things: how much is this going to cost me, and is it going to get done right? What you need is a mechanic who will give you transparent information and So you can make the best decision for your car and your wallet. Christian Brothers Automotive is the official auto repair shop of the Ramsey Show because you can trust them to take care of your vehicle the right way. Their digital vehicle inspections let you see exactly what their technicians see, giving you confidence on which repairs are urgent and which ones can wait. Plus, every repair is backed by their Nice Difference Warranty, 3 years or 36,000 miles. With a guarantee like that, you can walk away knowing that your car and your wallet are taken care of. Schedule your service today and get 10% off your visit at cbac.com/ramsey or click the link in the description. That's cbac.com/ramsey.

10% off up to a $250 value. See store for details.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm Rachel Cruze with Jade Warshaw, and we are answering your questions about life and money. So give us a call at 888-825-5225. Up next, we have Phil in Louisville, Kentucky. Hi, Phil. Welcome to the show.

Hey, how you guys doing?

We're doing great. How can we help?

Um, yeah, I was curious, got a, um, Question. My wife and I recently retired and we've got a 25-year-old son who everything's great except for, I guess he's a little bit delayed to launch. And about 2 months ago, he finally got a job, you know, after not having one for years. And my wife and I's only differences really in anything is She is of the opinion that we should continue to pay for all sorts of things, rent and everything like that.

Why?

Well, her position is that, you know, she grew up very poor and ended up being very successful, and she wants him to not experience any of those things that she did. And I'm of the opposite opinion. I think that a little bit of struggle is healthy. Especially for a young man growing up.

Where has his struggle lied?

I don't—

where did he struggle?

Good question. He hasn't really, you know, he hasn't really. He's, um, uh, he's been very well taken care of for sure. Um, and, uh, that's why it's— I guess that's really why there's a— we have that difference there, you know?

Yeah, I think, you know, this pains me so, and I can tell that it bothers you. One of the things that I'd want to highlight if I were talking with your wife is you know, she's kind of projecting her own experience on him, and that's not his experience at all. You said she grew up poor. He is not.

Yeah, she did.

He has not been poor a day in his life. And it sounds like she—

And she became successful.

She worked hard.

Out of the struggle.

Out of the struggle.

Yes.

And look what it afforded her. And he hasn't worked yet until it looks like 2 months ago he got his first job. So yeah, I would really push back on the reasoning there. And then the second thing, and I'm saying this because I hope that you play this call for her, um, the second thing that really bothers me about this is every day that she says to a 25-year-old or a 24 or a 23-year-old, I'll cover you, I'll take care of it, you don't have to work, it's too hard out there for you, she is stealing bits of his confidence from him.

Yeah.

Because she's saying you can't make it and I, I don't think you can do it on your own. So Why try? That's the message that she's sending.

That's what I've really tried, is just trying to find that. I was kind of worried, am I being too strict or something? Because it was, you know, I mean, we obviously have, you know, quite a bit of capability to help him, you know, saying no. And we have, you know, a good bandwidth. Being too strict or something, which I don't think it is, but I think she definitely does.

It's not, I mean, When you're strict, it's actually loving your adult child to be an adult. This is what the world is. And Jade is right. Every moment that you guys continue to step in and save him over and over and over and again, the—

That hurts him.

Yeah. Well, and the level of entitlement that really starts to grow of what he is gonna expect. I was hearing someone say this the other day and I thought it was so brilliant. She was talking about kids and entitlement, but she said kids that are entitled, they have a fear of frustration cuz they've never—

Yes, I heard, I've heard that.

Because they never have been able to cope with frustration. The moment frustration enters, a parent comes in and solves the frustration so the little child doesn't feel frustrated. Then they grow up to be an adult. And she gave the example of being at the ticket counter at American Airlines and they're all, well, I'm a medallion backflip silver member. How am I not upgraded? And you're frustrated. They're frustrated. Somebody fix my life. Somebody step in and fix this, cuz I can't cope with my own frustration. You've literally, he, he's, he emotionally, economically is like a 12-year-old, Phil.

Like that.

Yeah.

That's the, that's the son. You know what I mean? And no, no woman is gonna find that very attractive.

I agree with you there.

I agree with you there.

That's not been my, my, my experience for sure.

Yeah.

Yes. So, so what do the conversations with you and your wife look like, Phil? Because you sound like a very nice guy. You sound very levelheaded.

Uh-huh.

But she, I guess, has a lot of passion about this because her way has won so far.

Yeah. I mean, this is literally the only issue we've ever had. I mean, we're very agreeable and accommodating on almost every other front, but she just— I think it's a natural— it almost feels like a natural reaction. I don't know, because she just does it. She always finds a way to justify She'll take care of it. She'll intervene.

Is he an only child?

Yeah. Yeah, he is.

Yeah. I, I, I just, obviously I feel like we're, we're going past you and we're speaking past you and speaking to her because I, I think you understand it, Phil. I think you know what must be done. The hard part is, is getting her on board. Have you had, what are your conversations like with your son? Because here's the other, this is the other road. If you can't get your wife to say, hey, agree with me that we're kicking, you know, little Johnny out. then now you can go to Johnny and say, hey, here's what I'm experiencing and here's what I want for you. And I would love if you took the initiative for yourself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think in the past he has been much, much, much younger and he kind of played us probably. I mean, he was a teenager back in the day and that sort of thing. And he played it against us. Of course he wants it all, but I'm hopeful. First job, really, you know, just a couple of months in here, but maybe, yeah, he'll get some real-world experience out there and then maybe, you know.

And there needs to be a written timeline of, okay, you know, you don't have to kick him out tonight, but you guys need to look and say, okay, by January 15th, you're gonna have your own apartment. By, you know what I mean? Like, here are some timelines because it's good for him. And Phil, I mean, And for your wife too, I'm like, for you guys to be on the same page, yes, is very ideal. But it also doesn't sound like you rarely step in and, and just say like, hey, this, this is harming our child.

Right. This is, this is not putting in a pool or not. This is like a, a big, big deal.

Yeah. This is failure to launch. This is Matthew McConaughey. I mean, like, this is, this is the story. Like, this is literally playing out right in front of us and it doesn't end well. It doesn't end well. Um, and so the frustrations, the struggles, all of that has to happen in life, right? And people have it at different degrees, but, but you are not immune to suffering in life. You're going to get it one way or the other.

Yeah.

He's either gonna, he's gonna feel it, you know, when, when he, once he's married and, and his marriage is hard or parenting is hard or his job is hard, he has to have some level of endurance and grit. And you have to experience that. And by just buffering, putting pillows around him his whole life isn't— it isn't gonna do that.

It isn't.

Rachel, I love that you said that. And, and I wanna double-click on that because it's so true. Pain is so necessary, and the more you feel, your tolerance for it grows. Yes. And you can handle more of it. But we both had babies. You know, when you— when that epidural hits and you're like, okay, you're feeling good, but then if it wears off and that pain hits you all at once, once, you're like, I, I can't function. I've never had to function under these circumstances before. But if you let the pain build little by little by little, you can actually learn to adapt. You learn to cope with it. You learn to push through it.

And it creates, you know, perseverance. Perseverance, character, character, hope. Scripture talks about like, like there's a progression in life. And if you don't allow people to go through those progressions, they don't get to be who they Meant to be. I mean, like, the fullness of who they are. And so, oh, Phil.

Phil!

Phil's wife! If you're watching or listening to us, we love you! But let the— let 25-year-old— let him go.

Let him go.

Cut him loose.

Let him go.

He'll find a great woman. Hopefully get married. Maybe have babies. You'll get grandbabies out of this.

God willing.

If you're in a really bad debt situation, I know how scary that is. You might be getting harassed by debt collectors every day, threatened with lawsuits, and maybe you think bankruptcy is the only way out. I've been there. I remember feeling so scared I couldn't breathe. But it's not too late to get out of this mess. Contact Guardian Litigation Group. Guardian is not a call center.

They're a real law firm.

You get a real attorney. And they'll fight for you. They'll fight for you. attorney assigned to you. So if a creditor sues, you're protected from day one, not scrambling to find legal representation when you're already in the middle of it. And Guardian only gets paid when your debt is negotiated and you accept the settlement. Guardian has helped over 55,000 people settle more than $600 million in debt. That's why I trust them and send people their way. The longer you wait, the fewer options you have, the more expensive it gets. But it doesn't have to end that way. Guardian can defend you. Go to guardianlit.com/ramsey. That's guardianlit.com/ramsey, or click the link in the description.

Attorney advertising. Results may vary and no specific outcome is guaranteed.

Well, if you have worked worked hard and gotten yourself out of debt, if you have a fully funded emergency fund and you are Baby Steps 4 and beyond, we wanna hang out and celebrate with you. We are gonna be on a cruise for an entire week in March, and it is the Live Like No One Else Cruise, March 14th through the 21st. And we will all be on it. Jade, myself, George, John Delony, Dave Ramsey, Sharon Ramsey's gonna be there. Some of our families are coming, and it's gonna be a fantastic time. We did this I guess about a year and a half ago was the first one. And we've recorded shows. There's Smart Money Happy Hour. We recorded that. And it is just an excellent week to not only just enjoy some, you know, R&R for sure, but also, I mean, we have so much content, so many sessions. There's something constantly going on on the boat that is Ramsey-esque, if you will. And we're excited to hang out with you. So make sure to reserve your cabin because they are selling out. So make sure to grab one. If you go to ramseysolutions.com/ Again, the cruise is March 14th through the 21st.

We'd love to see you there. All right, let's go to Mike in Chicago. Hi, Mike. Welcome to the show.

Hi, how's it going? Thanks for having me.

Yes, absolutely. How can we help?

Yeah, so reaching out, um, so I'm 27 years old, you know, recently this year we bought a home and, um, you know, I do have a full-time career, but I'm in about, you know, with the business debt around $650K. Uh, so I wanted to know like a realistic timeline on when we, you know, when I can see myself being debt-free. You know, I would like to be, you know, before I enter my 30s, but I don't know if that's quite practical or not.

Okay. So the $650,000, um, I mean, it is your debt cause you signed for it, but it's technically quote unquote with the business, correct?

Oh, that's combined. So that's some of it. Majority of it's actually the mortgage. Um, you know, there's some of that, that's the business. What's the business?

What's the mortgage?

Uh, mortgage is around $420,000.

Okay.

Okay.

And then the rest on the business, is this just, are you a sole proprietor? Do you have partners? Explain that a little bit more.

Yeah, sure. So that's a sole proprietorship. Um, you know, it's an auto sales business. So that debt is actually around $150,000.

Okay.

Um, and then the rest of that is $85,000 or $90,000 on a student loan debt. And then the remaining $40,000 or so is personal and also some family debt.

Okay.

Gotcha. And how much are you making a year?

Uh, so full-time employed is around $95,000.

What about your wife?

Uh, wife, she's actually finishing up, uh, some of her exams in her school for optometry programs. So she's currently not working yet.

When will she start working?

Uh, probably in about a year.

Okay.

And will she have student loans to add to the pile?

No, no student loans on her end.

Okay.

What will be her starting salary out when she starts? Do you know?

Um, yeah, approximately probably $140K.

Okay, that's great. Awesome. But that'll be in about a year, you said, right?

Yes, correct.

Okay, perfect.

So you just bought the house, the $420K. I'm assuming you guys saved up a decent chunk of money to put down on that. How did you do this? Um, yeah, how were you able to do that so quickly? Because if you were able to do a sizable chunk there, I'm thinking let's apply that same force Mm-hmm. To paying off this debt?

Yeah, sure.

I mean, I would, I would love to, you know, apply that same principle. Unfortunately on that end, um, that was a lot of my wife's savings. You know, majority of the down payment was from her end.

Okay.

And I had a small part to play with it, you know, while I'm pretty heavily invested in the business. So, you know, trying to, to grow that.

So, yeah.

Okay. So the only way we're, you know, your initial question was like, what's a realistic timeline to get outta debt? And I think the first thing that you have to decide is, How important is it to you? Like how intensely do you wanna move? Because what I'm kind of hearing is that it's, you've easily pushed it to the side whenever it feels like you want something else more. Well, we wanna do the house, we'll push the debt to the side. I wanna do this business, I'll push the debt to the side. And so if you're ready to get intense, then it's gonna mean some sacrifice. And I just don't know if that's what you're looking to do right now.

Yeah. No, I think that if it does require a lifestyle change, that's something that we are open to. I wouldn't say that we're necessarily lavish spenders or anything, but I know obviously the mortgage is a big chunk of that, which of course we can eliminate that at any time if we wanted to. But then the business, obviously, that needs to continue. Operations and expenses have to continue on that.

Mm-hmm.

Savings and the student loans, it's just hard to really tackle all that with at least the income that I'm on at the moment.

After you pay yourself from the business and obviously operating costs, how much margin is left for you to start tackling the business debt?

At the moment, with being my income only, it's probably $1,000 or $2,000 to spare, really. I do know when my wife starts working, that might change a little bit. And also, you see with the business, it's pretty seasonal, so it's up and down. In the summertime season, business is good. In the wintertime, Kind of slows down a little bit.

What kind of business is it?

It's an auto sales business, a car dealer.

Okay.

So what did you project when you took out this loan? What did you project on how quickly you could have the debt paid back?

Um, is this in regards to the mortgage or the business loan?

The business.

Um, yeah, that, I mean, the business is worth, you know, more than what the debt is owed to it. So if I, for example, wanted to kind of eliminate that debt, it's just a matter of, you know, liquidating the business and kind of clearing that.

No, no, I think you missed the first question I asked you earlier. I said, after you pay yourself in the business, how— and after operating costs and all that, how much is— how much margin is left in the business that you're reinvesting? How much profit is there?

Oh, right.

And you said— you said $1,000 or $2,000.

Oh no, I'm sorry, I misunderstood that. So in terms of the actual margin on what I'm reinvesting, that's probably closer to $3,000 to $4,000, uh, you know, profit per month.

So there's no way that business is worth more than the debt. You're, you only, you're not making any profit hardly. Uh, okay. So, woo woo woo. Okay. So yeah, what I would, what I would be doing if I were you is I would have to find the right balance between what you're invest— reinvesting into the business to grow it versus what you're doing to actively pay off debt.

Mm-hmm.

I would be very aggressive towards paying off the debt right now because that, even though it's the business, it's affecting you because you're a sole proprietor. And then on the other side of it, until your wife starts working, I mean, you've gotta be going hard in the paint because $95,000 is a fine salary, but when you hold it up to all of this debt, suddenly it shrinks it and it doesn't feel like what it should.

Yeah.

So that's the shovel-to-hole ratio that you've gotta go and really work through at this point.

Yeah, I think I would have the 2 different goals. I wouldn't be thinking about the mortgage right now, Mike. I think in the business side, I'd be throwing as much money that's coming in, um, you know, after retained earnings and everything, be throwing it at that debt. So on the business side, be working on getting that outta debt. And then from the personal side, you know, you guys have that $40,000 and the $85,000 student loan. I mean, I, I would be in the practice of not continuing to up lifestyle and throwing that extra. If you have $1,000 to $2,000, be throwing it at that. You won't pay all of it off, by the time your wife starts working. But you guys will have, you know, get a chunk down. I mean, hopefully, I mean, it'd be great if you got it down to $20,000, you know, in the personal loan side. And then when she starts working, my goal would be that we do not count her income at all. Her income, I mean, if it hits the account, it is going straight back out.

Good idea.

And it's gonna be to pay off this debt. Because you guys then at that point could get all of this cleaned up. up in a year and a half, including the business debt, if you use some of her income. I just want you to be in good business practices to be in a place, cuz you kind of made a comment of like, well, we, you know, for operating expenses and all that, you just have to have the debt rolling and you don't. Your, your business 100% could be debt-free. Um, we teach small businesses every day here through EntreLeadership about how to get to this place where they are in a cash flow position and they're not, mm-hmm, they don't have, they don't have a bank in their ear, you know, talking about loans.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So on the business side, I would be getting outta debt, but create some good practices around that. Cuz once your wife's salary hits in a year, I don't want you to wait for a year, but when it hits, that's gonna be pretty life-changing.

Yeah.

If you guys allow it to. And that's the thing, Mike, is, is what's gonna be built between you all between now and then, um, is a full year of character building and learning to live a certain way.

And like—

It's an identity shift.

Yes.

And then—

Total.

And then you're almost immune to this new income. until everything is paid off and there's some savings in the bank. But if you hold on the line, we'll get you maybe one of our EntreLeadership books, Build a Business, and then we'll give you Total Money Makeover too.

I like that.

Just walking through the Baby Steps, because you guys are at that point that if you want to make the decision, like what Jade said, if you want to do it, you can do it. It's just going to be, it's a heavy lift, but you guys, You're very, very capable of doing it, and we see people like with your numbers all the time.

Yes.

And they make a decision to do it, so that's gonna be up to you guys.

Hey, I want to talk to you for a second about love, and not love like in Titanic or something. I mean responsible love, the kind of love that moves you to take care of the people closest to you. And one of the most important ways to show that kind of love is by having term life insurance. If you have anyone depending on you, a spouse, kids, anyone, You need term life insurance. Term life insurance gives your family real protection if the unthinkable happens, so they can spend their time grieving and not worrying about how the bills are going to get paid. Zander is a broker who works for you, shopping the top companies to find the right coverage options for your needs and your budget. In many cases, there are options available with no medical exam and instant approval. My wife and I had term life insurance through Zander for years, long before I worked at Ramsey. Because we trust them. Getting term life insurance is a way of saying I love you when you can no longer say it yourself. Go to zander.com or call 1-800-356-4282 to find the coverage that fits your family.

Up next, we have Michael in New Haven, Connecticut. Hi, Michael. Welcome to the show.

Hi, thank you for taking my call. Um, just wanted to— my wife and I just paid off our mortgage today, and we're both in our 40s, so—

Wow! Oh my gosh, we should have done a debt-free scream, Michael!

That's crazy.

Paid off your house! That's incredible.

Yeah, she's 42, I'm 46.

Whoa, how much was that? What did that total?

Uh, today's payout was $109. The original mortgage was like $240,000.

Wow, that's so cool.

How much is the house worth?

The house is worth about $440,000.

Okay, good for you guys. Amazing.

That's awesome.

All right, so, sorry, we're going off. We're just so excited for you.

Yeah, you can't just speak fast enough.

Yep, paid off the mortgage today. No biggie. Yeah, how can we help?

So, we have an emergency fund right now that's about $120,000, and we have about $500,000 in our 401s collectively. And we're working on about a $230,000 to $250,000 annual salary between the two of us.

So cool. So good.

Yeah. So we're in a good position. We're just, and we have a 401 index fund in like a Fidelity taxable account. So I'm just trying to figure out with all this extra now disposable income, you know, what should we do? Should we be looking at something else that I'm not thinking of or add more to the index fund and less in the emergency fund?

Yeah.

I mean, this is, first off, let's just start by saying this is a good problem to have. To have so much margin that you're like, I don't know what to do with it all. That's so good. You guys are killing it, Baby Steps Millionaires. So just, gosh, kudos to you all around. So what is the amount of margin that we're dealing with? Because I mean, obviously I'm assuming you're investing the 15% and this is going above and beyond that. So how much margin do you have to work with?

So we're investing our 15% in the 401, and then we just have whatever Disposable income that we can put into this taxable account? Or, I mean, because now we wouldn't have any bills essentially except our normal everyday bills.

Right. So how much margin do you have to play with here?

Put into that taxable account, that brokerage per month? What would you say?

Per month? I mean, I would say, I don't know, $5,000 to $10,000 a month.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's great.

So I'm just wondering, Uh, I, I can tell you the things I'd be thinking of. Uh, I'd be very intentional that now that you guys are at this phase, cuz obviously you guys have buckled down in order to do this, I'd be making sure that you're enjoying some of this money, that all this margin is not just going directly towards hoarding or saving, saving, saving. Saving is very good, but if you're not living and enjoying your life, then it crosses a weird barrier. So make sure that you're enjoying, you're taking some vacations, you're being very generous, you're doing those things. And then I'd probably do some sort of a split. I don't know if you said that you're maxing out all of the available, uh, retirement that you have, but if you are, um, if you are not, I would kind of split it and I would maybe do more to the retirement if you can. If you've got an, uh, you know, I don't know if you're each maxing out your 401s, if there's any sort of after-tax that you have available, if you're each maxing out your, um, uh, Roth IRAs, that sort of thing, or your roll, you know, your backdoor Roth IRAs.

If there's more If you have more retirement accounts, I would still go there. And then I would put a percentage to the brokerage because my guess is, I don't know if you ever wanna retire early or if you ever wanna take your foot off the gas in some perspective, you've got a big chunk of money that's not earmarked for 59½.

Okay.

Yeah, because you guys each could invest around $25,000 in your 401s and then I think it's $7,500 into your Roth. So I'm with Jade. take some good, have those accounts and max those out than anything above that. I mean, they, and they have, you know, mega backdoor.

Yeah.

You know, all of these other things. But there's a part of me that because you guys are still so young, you may wanna get to some of this money before 59 and a half. And so I would say yes, maxing out the retirement and then putting whatever's left in that brokerage. I mean, that's what my, I mean, I'll tell you, Michael, that's what we've done. My husband and I, that's kind of our goal is to max out retirement accounts. And we even do like an, you know, an HSA. Like we'll find like little things that we can do here and there.

Yeah.

But then everything else goes into a brokerage account. And then out of that account is where we have had some goals. And so I would say that for you and your wife, like, hey, what is the next goal? Is it a big giving goal? Is it a, we wanna put in a pool one day or we want to, you know, upgrade houses and pay cash? Like, I don't know what it is, But whatever that next goal is, for me, having that money, I don't know if you're a spender or a saver, Michael, but I know for, as a—

Um, are you, sounds like a saver.

Are you, is your wife the spender?

Um, I plead the Fifth.

Okay.

Yes. You know what?

It's okay. You don't have to be anonymous to be a spender. I'm a spender. You can still be responsible and be a spender. I just know from my personality, if I just keep dropping money in accounts, I've told Winston this, it almost demotivates me in a sense because I'm like, it just feels like this black hole that I'm like, am I ever gonna see that money? Are we ever gonna like use it?

I don't know.

Like why, like what are we doing?

For sure.

So having something earmarked that you're working towards, I know for me always feels better emotionally to be like, okay, this is what we're doing. This is where we're heading towards. And again, you guys get creative with it. Like it doesn't, you know, I, you know, we've even done some fun giving stuff, especially last calendar year. That was like a big thing for us. It's like, we're gonna do some great, Some big giving, and it was goals for us, these earmarked things. And it was amazing. It was so fun. But have something that you guys are working towards, Michael. That's what I would encourage you guys to do. Okay.

Yep.

I greatly appreciate it. Thank you. And we are excited. So we even took a picture in the bank in the lobby after we paid off our mortgage today.

Oh, that's awesome.

That's really cool.

I've heard people say, I wonder if this was your experience. We've had people that do their debt-free scream when they pay off their mortgage and they're like, Like it was a little uneventful. Yeah. They were like, I expected when we turned in that last payment that something to happen, that there'd be balloons or that people would like have, you know, the staff would have confetti and like celebrate with us. And they're like, and no one, that's wild. No one really, no one really did anything. What did it, did it feel different for you guys, Michael? Like, did it feel great or was it a little uneventful? Like how did you guys experience it?

No, it, it felt like the, like, um, butterflies in our stomach and then like the weight of the world was kind of lifted and we walked outta there. just, we were just giving praise to God saying, thank you for everything. And, um, yeah, so it was surreal.

That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, y'all have done what a lot of people would say is the impossible in today's world, um, to have a paid-off house. It's just, it's just wild.

Amazing.

Uh, I was in Kansas yesterday, uh, at a speaking event and, um, and I had a couple of women that were kind of coming through the line and I was talking to them and they, and they always whisper, which always makes me laugh.

I know.

They're like, I have a paid-off mortgage. I've been following Ramsey for 8 years. And I'm like, girl! She's like, I don't— one of 'em was like, I don't think I've ever told anybody. Like, there's no one to really like tell. She's like, but you know, it's happened. You know, it happens. And so, it is like when you experience people that have walked these steps and they've done it for themselves, like—

Yes.

We're over here just yapping on the back, you know, behind a desk. Like, but you, you know, the Michaels of the world, and even some of these women from yesterday, like, you all are the people out there that are listening that are doing it. You're doing the hard work. You're getting up, you're having goals, you're choosing to put your money somewhere versus elsewhere. Like, you're making these choices day in and day out to further your financial progress, to get you in a place where Michael is, where he has questions of like, I don't know what to do with $10,000 a month, you know?

Listen, I, for one, love when people share all those big money wins like that because it's inspiring. It should be inspiring for someone who's not quite there yet or nowhere near that. It should be inspiring, not It's not the opposite of like, oh, this guy's bragging or this guy's— no, like that lets you know what's possible. They're in their 40s living in Connecticut.

Hello.

And doing it. So well done, Michael. And you guys, they followed the Ramsey Baby Steps. And for some of you that are newer to this plan, it's these simple 7 steps. I say simple because they're easy to understand. They're sometimes hard to do, but you can walk through them. We'll put a link down below and you can check them out. from saving up your first emergency fund all the way through Baby Step 6, which is paying your house off early, which is what Michael did. And now they're on to Baby Step 7, which is to continue to build wealth, like we were talking about, continue to invest.

Yeah.

And be wise, but also live like no one else and give like no one else.

You know what's scarier than a life-size skeleton on your neighbor's front porch? A stranger from the internet showing up on your digital front porch because they found your address online. It is so easy for creepy data brokers to get a hold of your information these days. They're out there right now buying and selling your personal data without your knowledge or consent. That is all trick, no treat, my friends. And I don't know about you, but when it comes to my personal data, I prefer to be a ghost online. And that's why I've had DeleteMe for years. They don't just remove your personal data once. They keep monitoring and removing it for you just in case it pops back up like your middle school crush who just won't let go. And although I love a game of hide-and-seek with my toddler, I don't want to play it with my data online. And that's why I appreciate that DeleteMe sends me regular privacy reports showing me what information of mine was out there, where it was found, and what was removed. That is real protection, not just some service dressed up in a costume. Get 20% off any privacy protection plan from our partners at DeleteMe for Cybersecurity Awareness Month.

Go to joindeleteme.com/ramsey to get the deal, or click the link in the description. That's joindeleteme.com/ramsey.

Our question of the day is brought to you by Ask Ramsey, your free AI tool that provides personal money answers based on Ramsey principles. So you can visit ramseysolutions.com/askramsey.

All right. Today's question comes from Travis in Hawaii. He says, is the $1,000 emergency fund and the 3 to 6 month emergency fund 2 different funds, or does one build on another? Also, are there different— also, are they different from having sinking funds for car purchases, vacations, et cetera? All right, Travis, I love this question. It's a fair question. So the $1,000 emergency fund, for anybody who's kind of new to that, that's what we would call Baby Step 1. It's the very first thing that we have people do. Put $1,000 aside. It's just a quick buffer between you and life. It's not the be-all end-all because after you pay off your debt in Baby Step 2, you, you do, you build from that $1,000 up to 3 to 6 months of emergencies. So the idea is that $1,000, it stays put. You know, if you have to use some of it for an emergency, you build it back up, but it stays put throughout Baby Step 2. And then when you hit 3, you're gonna add to that same fund. So yeah, it does build on itself. Now, how does that differ from a sinking fund?

They are very different, and I think that that's a really fair call out. So your emergency fund is sitting there. It is only for emergencies. Emergencies are very clearly defined as things that are completely unforeseen. It's like, wow, this is a surprise.

Yeah.

It's something that's completely necessary. I must do it. And then there's usually an urgency to it, which is like, I gotta do it now. So that's what emergency funds are for. Whereas sinking funds are things that we know are coming and we know they're expenses that we can't necessarily cash flow. So it's like, let's kind of start putting up a pool of money for this thing. I know I'm gonna need new tires. New tires are $800. Maybe I can't cash flow that, so I'm gonna put aside, you know, $150 a month until I have the $800. That is a sinking fund. Now, I think it's fair, uh, Rachel, to say, I feel like in Baby Step 2, I don't like to get too hung up on sinking funds.

Right.

Especially unnecessary ones. Obviously, you need tires, that's fine. But vacations and sinking funds for things that you don't really need a sinking fund for.

That's right. Yes.

You can just cash flow it. Please don't do that.

It's eating up too much of your— Even like a car. Like people are like, well, I'll just put some money aside. I'm like, no, no, no. Pay off your debt.

Yeah. Pay off your debt.

Pay off your debt.

Yes.

Because if this money is just, if you just have piles of money sitting places, you could be through Baby Step 2 so much faster. That is gonna free up income.

Yeah.

Because you don't have payments anymore once you're debt-free. to then really fund those sinking funds. So yeah, I'm with you on that.

Yeah. And then from there, yeah, once you're out of Baby Step 2, some people, and I think this is a just to each his own, some people like George, he is a sinking fund fanatic.

For everything.

And I try to avoid them at all costs. I just—

Yes, me too, J.

Don't like it.

I know.

So if you need to do it, do it. But I feel like it makes the budget harder to navigate. That's just me. But do what you want.

Yep.

And there's the answer to your question, Travis.

Yeah, because once you're past Baby Step 3, especially, you know, you'll probably be having a fund that just some extra money's going into that can really catch a lot of those things that we're talking about. Now, if you know you're gonna replace a car, that may be a time to be like, okay, we're gonna spend X amount, so we need to be putting away, you know, a significant amount each month to get to that car purchase that we're wanting right after Baby Step 3. You know, that all can definitely happen, but But yeah, all the line items of all of the funds. But I'll give Fairwinds a shout out though, because you can have up to 10 high-yield savings accounts with them. Wow, that's a lot. And so, and we've done a couple. We've put our, and we got one for our daughter, earmarked because she worked some this summer. So I earmarked one for her. But you're right, I think George probably maxed out all 10 of his because—

Yeah, and I'll just say this because I know people wonder how we budget sometimes. If there is when there's margin, and I know this is not, I mean, we haven't had to put anything in the emergency fund in a long time, but it's just margin. It's like we're gonna save this in a high yield. We have a couple of high yields and one is like for, um, specifically for like home type things. If something pops up that we wanna do on the home, it's there. And then the other one is more like a catchall.

Yes.

But I don't put a line item. This one's for this, this one, you know, this money's for this and that and that. I just, it makes it too complex.

Yes.

Nope. I'm with you. I hear you. All right, let's go to Chelsea in New York. Hi Chelsea, welcome to the show.

Hi, it's nice to meet you.

Yes, good to talk to you. How can we help?

Uh, so I was just wondering the quickest way to help my parents come up with a plan to get out of debt.

Okay, yeah. How old are you, Chelsea?

Uh, I'm 23.

23, awesome. And are your parents Have your parents asking for a plan to get out of debt? Have they come to you and have you guys had these discussions, or it's something that you see and you're like, hey, my parents probably should get out of debt?

I think I definitely see it a lot more than they probably think they feel it.

Yes. So how do you know what's going on? Do they, do they talk about it with you?

Yeah, they've asked me and my brother for some help.

Okay, that's what I was wondering.

They don't— I don't know that we really have like a great plan. Uh, we've tried.

What's caused the— what's causing the hardship? Is it they're not working, they're not working enough, or are they just crazy spenders? What do you see as the pattern?

I believe it's crazy spending, but they also have their own businesses. And then I just think the spending is honestly too high is what causes the problems. But this has been going on for 30 years. But right now they're Got like $500,000 in debt.

Okay. Is that all consumer debt or does that include their mortgage?

Uh, they don't own a home, so it's $300,000 in student loans, about $100,000 in consumer— I say consumer, but it's a mix of consumer and business— and then $100,000 in IRS.

How do you know? Oh my gosh, how do you know all of this? Like, because you have a, a detailed level of this. How, how do you know this?

Are I've tried to help gather everything to help them, but it's just very overwhelming.

Yeah, for sure. And when they came to your brother and you for help, were they asking about— did they need help financially? Okay, will you give us money? Or were they like, hey, we need help making a plan to get out of debt?

They need help making a plan. I've tried to get financial advisors and other things, but I think that they're just so overwhelmed that—

How much do they make a year? Their income? Do you know?

About $200,000 net.

Okay, so there's a good income. Um, have they begun paying taxes to the IRS? Have they gotten in place like a bookkeeper? Okay. Uh, but have they gotten bookkeepers for their business to make sure that they don't get into this mess again?

Yes, they have.

Okay, very good. Well, listen, Chelsea, you're a, you're a good daughter because this is really, really tough. So I would start I would start with having them do some homework. I would have them read The Total Money Makeover, and we'll give you 2 copies, one for each of them so they can read it on their own time. And then I would love for you to introduce them to this show because that's one way that they can start to hear this information over and over. And I would love, because I just think that for them, this is going to be, and I've said this earlier in the show, this is going to be a complete identity shift for them. I would love if they can do that in community. We don't talk about it a whole lot, but we actually offer in-person classes. They're called Financial Peace University. And I would love for you to look on the site and see if there's one near you that they, that you can go with them to and get in a community of other people who are trying to do exactly what your parents are doing, which is pay off debt.

And my guess, Chelsea, is that you're also gonna learn a lot while you're there because you're just getting started. I mean, how do your finances look?

I mean, I'm in student loan debt from college, and I'm working on higher education too. So it's not— I'm not exactly where I'd like to be, but I actually do use a financial advisor from like the Dave Ramsey Show backend. And so, and he's awesome. And, um, so that's been super helpful. I've paid off $80,000 of my student loans already.

Oh wow, great job, Chelsea.

Really good.

That's my Amazing. Why do they have $300,000 in student loan debt? Are they Parent PLUS loans or are they degrees that they each got?

Degrees that they got.

What was it?

So they, they, uh, it was a doctorate. They pulled out against, um, like they pulled out extra because they weren't working at the time. So I tried to warn against it, but I mean, yeah, I don't know.

It's, it's hard.

They have a really hard time looking at any of it. It's just really hard for them, of course.

So yeah, well, I want you to approach this with a healthy level of involvement. I want you to help them, but I don't want you to feel the weight of responsibility. Yeah, responsibility for them, because they, they are grown adults. And so you providing those resources, I think you do that and you wait and see what they do with it. And And that's gonna indicate whether or not these are people that you can actually help with what they do with that.

But the $100,000 IRS is where I would start. Pay the IRS first and then start working on the consumer debt after that. And they should be living on $100,000, $80,000, and putting $120,000 towards this debt. I mean, after taxes and all, but that's where I would start. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show at the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. We are taking your calls at 888-825-5225. We have Olivia in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hi, Olivia. Welcome to the show.

Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

Yes, absolutely. How can we help?

So I am calling because I'm trying to see if it is a good idea for us to pay off our Currently, I just think that we are struggling even though we have a pretty high income. We don't have a ton of monthly margin at the end of the month. And part of that is because I previously was working and 3 years ago I stopped working. And so some of our expenses are still higher. And so I'm trying to, you know, make an educated decision on whether it makes more sense for us to either evaluate some of our monthly expenses or free up some of the margin from the mortgage to then be able to use towards other things that we currently are doing.

Okay.

So how much do you owe on the mortgage? What's left on it?

It's about $490,000.

Okay. So this is not a— I mean, this is a long-term play.

It is.

And so that's why I wanted to call because I didn't know if you guys would advise us to not necessarily take out a ton of money from our investments as opposed to just trying to pay off a little more each month. We did make an attempt at that.

Is it retirement investments or is it brokerage, non-retirement investments?

Brokerage, non-retirement. So we have about, I think, $1.2 million in brokerage and then we And then we have another $1.7K in traditional IRA and Roth IRA.

Okay.

And what do you guys earn now? I know you said that you haven't worked for a while, but what's the income every month with your husband?

So our take-home is about $11,000.

Okay. And how much is the mortgage every month?

$4,300. And so with 2 incomes, it wasn't a big deal. Obviously now that does go beyond the How did you guys—

how did you guys get $1.2 million in a brokerage?

Um, so we have— well, they're called single accounts. I don't know if— so 2 singles and then 1 joint. How do we— how do we get to that?

Yeah, well, you just said you just don't have a lot of margin each month, so I'm like, how in the heck did you guys save $1.2 million?

Yeah, were you working?

Oh, well, I worked for 15 years. Okay, so that was very high earned incomes.

Yeah, gotcha. Okay, so that— a lot of that was coming from your income.

From both of our incomes over the course of those 15 years.

Okay. Gotcha.

Gotcha.

Yes. Well done.

Thank you.

Okay. So the question is, so you're thinking about pulling the full $490,000 from the $1.2 million and just clearing this mortgage?

Correct.

Yes. Is it the only debt?

It is the only debt we have.

Yes.

I would do that.

I'd do it tonight. Be done.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay, good.

Have a party. Pop some champagne.

Otherwise, what was the money for?

You're on Baby Step 4. Step 7 like that overnight. 100%.

Yes. Do you have liquid cash? Do you have other liquid cash money that's not invested?

Well, so that's why I really wanted to like talk through it because we had like 9 months saved at one point and then we started to like have to start pulling from it. And I was like, this isn't how we're supposed to be operating. We should be, you know, having a sink fund instead or something of that regard that shouldn't be touched. And so once we started to have to pull from our high-yield savings account, I kind of felt like maybe we should have a conversation about just paying off the mortgage and then have that flexibility to use that $4,300 towards, you know, whether we wanna go towards mortgage or other buckets.

Yes, I 100% would do that. I would 100% pay off this mortgage, make sure, yeah, I would still keep the 6 months of liquid cash. And I think when you guys do that, you're gonna feel the freedom of what you've actually built together over the last 15 years, which by the way, is really, really phenomenal. How old How old are you guys?

I'm 41 and my husband's 43.

Gosh.

That's right.

Amazing.

So I, I do think a little bit of your hesitation, Olivia, and I could be wrong on this, so tell me I'm wrong, is, is there a little bit of like, oh my gosh, we're not gonna have to change really our lifestyle and our habits and our discipline cuz we can just reach over to this big bucket, pay it off, it'll free up $4,000 a month and we'll be fine. It almost covers your sins, if you will.

Mm-hmm.

Where you're feeling like, but we, but we've been having to dip out of this cuz we haven't changed our lifestyle. Like there's a discipline, there could be that discipline issue that makes you nervous, right? Um, that then won't be a problem because you're gonna have $4,300 a month freed up that you don't have to dip into that savings. So, so what I would say though is that for you guys to have some habits with money that create discipline, that could be living on a monthly budget. That could be like, hey, we're going to be giving 10% every month. We're go— like, have some parameters that you live by. So it's not so like nilly-willy, if you will. Um, yeah. That actually I think will make you feel more comfortable and more in control.

Yeah.

To know like, okay, we can do this. Like if we have to, here's some parameters we're gonna set for our lives and we're gonna live within those. We're gonna have to choose to live within those. And I think that's a, that's a healthy way at looking at it. And I think that may give you some internal peace instead of feeling like it's been a little chaotic and we've been able to cheat and like pull money out and keep our lifestyle, not have to really sacrifice. That may feel good.

Yeah, we're really big on giving. We do actually do 10% each month and have our entire marriage. So that's been good. I think where I also had a question is, so my husband loves to golf. And so, We, a few years ago, did join a local, like, golf country club. And so that's one of the major expenses. And I felt bad asking him to pull that away because we obviously have worked really hard and we don't spend a lot of other things on ourselves. We have 3 kids.

So I don't think you have to pull that away. I think reshape it for a second because you guys, you just made, um, you flip-flopped a choice that we have a clear opinion on. So we would say beyond 15% of investing, you need to put that towards the mortgage. You guys clearly didn't do that. You said beyond 15%, we're just gonna keep investing 15, you know, beyond and beyond. Because I, I can guarantee at some point you were investing beyond 15%. So if you go back in time and say, gosh, if we had taken that money that we invested and put it on our mortgage, your mortgage probably would've been gone by now, right?

Yeah.

So exactly. When you look at it like that, you go, okay, we actually did have the money. Does that make sense? Yeah. We actually did have the money. To buy this house. We really did have the money. You just had it sitting over there in a brokerage account waiting.

Yes.

That's right.

That's right.

So I think that, and I, I mean, I'm just guessing based off of what the mortgage originally was. I mean, gosh, you must have been making $16,000 to $20,000 bringing home on your own, right? Like you were killing it. So I, I think that together we were. Yeah. I, I can, I can just tell. So I think that you're well within Enjoying the full, you know, give, save, spend of the $11,000 that you're bringing home now. And gosh, you're freeing up a $4,300 mortgage for the most part.

Yeah.

How much is the golf membership?

$820.

It went up.

So it was when we first joined, we were under 40. And so they get you that way, right? You get in and you're like under 40, you're paying a low amount, and then over 40 it goes up.

And so, $820 a month.

And I was like, yeah.

I think that's totally fine, Olivia. You're bringing home $11,000 a month and you have zero debt from the moment you pay this house off. 100%, you go do that.

Yeah, as long as you guys are using it. If you feel like you're being wasteful and it's not being used, then maybe you pause for a season and get back in later. But if you guys are using it and he's using it, um, yeah, I think you're okay. And I think you're gonna feel even better from the numbers standpoint when this is paid off.

Yeah.

And you're like, okay, our active income that we're living off of, that's our practice. We're gonna live off of what we make and live below what we make. And I think you can still do that with $11,000 a month.

You spend hours researching before making a major purchase like a home or car, but it's also a good idea to put in the work searching for the right insurance coverage. To protect your biggest assets, I recommend using Ramsey Trusted Pros. Whether you're looking for car, home, or any other type of insurance, Ramsey Trusted Providers have been coached and vetted to serve you like we would. Find what you need at ramseysolutions.com/insurance.

Next is Sam in Little Rock, Arkansas. Hi, Sam.

Hi, how are y'all?

Hi, we're doing great. How can we help?

My question is, my husband and I aren't agreeing on this. We have our personal property and our rental property. And as landlords, we have a duty to make sure that if anything were to happen, we're able to cover expenses. So I proposed we do $1,000 and just figure it out if that were to happen. And my husband thinks we should have more. We're on Baby Step 2.

Okay.

By the way. So trying to allocate the funds that we have in our savings and determine how much we should keep as due diligence for—

Yeah, for the rental. Well, do you guys keep a separate accounting for the rental property, its own checking account and rents coming in and things that you fix out of that?

We do. And we have a surplus every month. So we don't know if we should just keep it like at $1,000 and then fund it up to a certain threshold and take the rest and throw that at our debt.

Yeah. How much is sitting, how much is sitting in that account? The rental account right now?

We have $5,000.

$5,000.

Okay.

For any—

Yeah. That might happen.

And how much do you guys have just in your savings?

We have $13,000.

$13,000. How much debt do you have?

We have $88,000 non-mortgage debt.

$88,000. And how much do y'all make?

Um, our income with the rental Property included is $11,744 every month.

Okay, don't—

okay, um, how much of that is from the rental? Of how much of the $11,000 comes from the rental?

It's $580 a month.

Okay, so not a ton.

Okay, can you tell us— okay, so $580. Can you tell us what you owe on the rental?

$176,000. What's it worth? Uh, $260,000.

Okay.

And that's another topic. I've considered selling it and taking that. I think net after tax, we'd get about $50,000 or $60,000, but we have one of those sweet 2.1% interest rates from the 2021 era. And so my husband's pretty gung-ho on keeping it.

And the debt, the total debt aside from the mortgages was $88,000. Did I get that right?

Right?

Correct.

Okay.

Um, you know, I mean, obviously you went out of order by purchasing the rental when you still had debt. I mean, if, if, if you could go back in time, would you have made that purchase or would you have focused on paying off the debt? I'm just curious. Um, knowing what you know now.

We bought the investment property and then it was our primary, and then we bought another personal property when we moved.

And you just kept it.

Oh, so that, that actually adds more fuel to my argument here. If you had told me, and I would've done it reluctantly, but if you had told me, oh gosh, we picked this rental because it was such a good deal and XYZ, and I might've worked with you on it. But the fact that it was kind of a default of, well, we lived in it and then we just, we just didn't sell it. And so it became a rental. I don't know. I might look over at selling it, uh, just to get right side up and just to get in a better— footing with all of this.

Yeah. Because, yeah. And because it makes you guys $500 a month.

Yeah.

I was gonna say it's, it's not a lot of money.

Yeah.

And the equity in it is not, I mean, it, it would, it's enough to help you in a situation, but it's not like you're holding onto a massive asset that you couldn't get back into. Mm-hmm. Right. So what I'm thinking is getting you guys in a place financially that, um, yeah, it's pretty solid. So, So you could either, I mean, I'm, I'm good with one or two routes. I probably would lean with Jade of like, I almost would just sell it and take the $60,000. You know, you have $13,000, like you guys can almost be debt-free. Um, because would you guys go back into the rental business if you, if you wanted to? Like, would you, do you guys see yourselves building a portfolio of rentals?

Um, maybe, but we have to get this mess cleaned up before I think we can even think about that.

Well, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'm just trying to think if you wanna stay in it, because for some people, They love it. And if that's the case, then I'd say, well, then maybe then it's a choosing of that or 15 months of sacrifice just to get outta debt. And then you're gonna have to attack this—

The rental.

Yeah, the rental. I mean, it's gonna be years till you're right side up on everything.

What do you owe on the personal mortgage? Just curious.

$320,000.

$320,000?

Yeah.

Yeah, because I'm with Rachel. I think there's two, those two routes are there. But then you, when you play out the second route a little further and you go, okay, Okay, we're just gonna, we're gonna keep the rental and we just kill it on the $88,000. Well, now your road becomes long because it's like, well, now all the rent we're taking plus our other money, we're gonna either pay off the rental first or we're gonna pay off the personal first. 'Cause you're gonna wanna get to the point where this is all cleared out. And I think that's where you're gonna start feeling the stress of carrying those 2 mortgages. So I think honestly, when I play it like that, I think for that reason I would go ahead and sell it because you're only clearing $500 on it.

Yeah.

And that, and the $500, Sam, is before having to fix things in the house and all of that. Like, you guys may not even be making, I mean, gosh, $5,000. I mean, it's gonna be $6,000-ish a year, and that doesn't include all the maintenance. So it's really not doing you guys a lot of favors. It's probably not worth, what's it called? Well, not worth the squeeze.

Yeah, I think I've convinced myself.

What do you think we've convinced ourselves?

I think we've convinced ourselves that the juice is not worth the squeeze.

The juice is not worth it.

Yeah, that's it.

Thank you, Jade.

Yeah.

Yeah, Sam, I think I'd get out of it.

Uh-huh.

And take the equity. It was a great first house for you guys, but again, you're not making, you're just making $500 a month off this thing. You could do that babysitting, you know, a couple times or something.

You know what I mean?

And not have the upkeep and the, you know, the stress of a rental right now. And if you guys wanted to get back in, that's the other beautiful thing is, you know, you guys could look up 5-ish years. And, you know, if everything's paid off and you guys put some stocks and money away, yeah, you could get back into this, um, if you wanted.

Was that your— I'm just curious, was that your plan from the beginning when you guys bought this house? Were you like, we'll live in this for a while and then we'll buy a new one and we'll rent this one? Was that your plan and it just got you here, or what? Did that just kind of default?

It was our starter home, um, and then we had an opportunity that took us out of that area. And so when we were looking in the area that we moved to, we thought it was a good investment to keep it and have someone else pay our mortgage essentially. And so that's kind of where we're at.

Yeah. I pushed for option 1 because now it's also an intentionality play on your own life, which is you really didn't set out to have a rental in another area. It just kind of happened and then you flexed for It, but it wasn't what you were gunning for or pushing for intentionally, if that makes sense.

It does.

Um, I have a second part question if we have time with like what we should do with our $13,000. Um, I know you guys have a queue, so hit it.

Yes. Yeah. Um, go ahead.

Part of our ADA is a vehicle. Um, I can sell it and net about $4,000. Do we take that and get a cash car and then, or do I put that towards other debts that come in the snowball order first and then just keep that payment?

How much is the car loan?

It's $31,000.

Oh gosh.

Yep.

$35,000.

Yes, I would probably, I would sell it.

Uh-huh.

I mean, if you, it's enough of the $88,000. I mean, that gets you guys down to $50,000.

Yeah. And then suddenly this is— Yeah.

So I would take, 'cause what would feel like a good car to you? A $9,000-ish car?

When I've been looking, I feel like that's where we land with something reliable and feel like we could take our kiddo in safely. But I don't know if that's unreasonable with the amount of savings.

I think that's fine.

I think it's reasonable.

Yeah, I would sell it, step down. I mean, you're stepping down from a $33,000 car to a $10,000. So that's a fair sacrifice, I would say, Sam.

Absolutely.

So yeah, I would do that. Pull some money from that $13,000, And then, yeah, you guys should have around $8,000-ish left. Keep $1,000. So that's $7,000 going. So that, I mean, yeah, you guys will have close to $43,000 left to pay off, which is awesome. And not to keep putting this in your ear, but if you sell the house—

You've got that and an emergency fund.

That's right. You'll have all Baby Steps 2 and 3. And that just sets you guys up for so many options in life. Like, it is, it frees up your income. It's amazing. And so that, now the house may take a little bit to sell and a couple of things. So keep working on that snowball.

Yeah, absolutely.

Don't just depend on that. But man, when that sells, if you guys choose that route and that equity check comes in, that's gonna feel really good. You guys are gonna have a lot of control over your life.

I finally get to announce that my brand new book, Building the Marriage You Want, is available for pre-order. If you and your spouse have been feeling like roommates Like, maybe this thing called our marriage has just run its course. Like, this is just the way marriage is. I get it. This book is me sitting at the table with you and you and your spouse, helping you both take the next right step towards the marriage you both want. Marriage is still worth it. Order now for $24.99 and get over $100 in preorder bonus items at ramsaysolutions.com.

Listen, everyone needs insurance, but it can be hard trying to find pros who aren't looking just to make money off of you and agents who know their stuff. But Ramsey Trusted Insurance Pros are vetted and coached to make sure that they are market experts who have your best interests at heart. So you can go to ramseysolutions.com/coverage to find the type of insurance that you're looking for and connect with a Ramsey Trusted agent. All right, let's go to Danielle in Sacramento. Hi, Danielle, welcome to the show.

Hi.

Hello, hello, thanks for calling. How can we help?

So I'm calling, um, because I need some advice on the best way to purchase my parents' home.

Okay, um, that's exciting. What's causing this transaction to happen?

Well, so my parents, they own their home outright. It's paid And I've known always that one day it will be my home. It's something that we've clearly discussed in the past. And just as to recently, they've kind of been having some financial issues as far as my dad's retired now. What they used to spend, they're still spending that, but without the income. And so my kind of idea was I'm currently looking to purchase a house. Well, what if I purchased their home from them so that it could still put money in their pocket, but I could also live in a home right now too?

Oh boy.

Okay, um, how much is the house? How much would you buy it for?

Um, well, so that's kind of what we're talking about. So right now, like, just looking on Zillow without, um, getting it appraised or anything like that, the houses were It's about $590,000.

Okay. And how much money do you have, Danielle, um, for a down payment?

For a down payment, I have about $50 grand.

Mm.

Okay.

How much do you make? How much do you make a year?

So me and my fiancé together, we make about, um—

How much do you make, Danielle? How much do you make?

Me?

Yes.

I make about $80,000 a year.

$80 a year. Okay. When is the wedding?

Um, it is next October.

So a year from now.

Okay. Yes.

And, and how much does he make?

He makes, um, depending on his overtime, um, it kind of like ranges between about $100 to $120.

Okay.

Um, I'm gonna run a quick calculation because I want to give you the best option, the best, um, opinion. But I don't think, number one, you're gonna be able to afford this house.

Well, so that's the thing is my parents wouldn't be selling it to me for that price.

Yeah.

What are they selling it for? That was where my head was. What would they be selling it for?

They would want to sell it to me for $350,000.

So they're gonna, they're gonna take a paid-off asset when they're struggling with retirement, And give you a discount, and then they're still gonna be struggling with retirement with no place to live. This doesn't sound like—

No, she's not gonna live there. She's gonna let the parents live there.

That's—

Oh, your parents are gonna live there?

Yes.

This is a bad—

They're not gonna live there.

They, they've planned to build an ADU on the property.

This is a bad plan. Sorry, it's taken me a moment. I've been sitting here trying to dissect this in my mind.

This is not good.

No, it's okay.

This is, uh, it's not a good plan for a lot of reasons.

Um, okay, we'll start listing 'em.

We love you, Danielle. If we If we were having a glass of wine, we'd cheers right now and just be all friends.

Yes.

So we'll give you the bad news. We'll give you the bad news first.

Yes. So first off, I just wanna say this, and I know they're our family and we love 'em, but it's really not your job to bail them out. Like, you don't need to do that because I, if I were to talk to you aside from your parents and I'd said, what do you wanna do with your life? Like, where do you wanna live? What do you wanna do? I don't think that you'd be like, my plan in life is to buy my parents' house.

And for them to live in the unit that they're gonna build. build behind me.

Um, yeah, I feel like you're making a major flex that is a huge component to people's lives. Yes, to clean up someone else's mess. And I just— how old are you?

I'm 30.

I—

yeah, at this point in your life, you need flexibility. You need to be able to go follow a job. You need to get— you know, you have a fiancé and all these things. I think that you're really tying yourself up in a major way, and I would not do that. So that's thing one. Thing 2 is I'm not convinced this will fix them.

No.

Even if you did do it.

Because the house isn't their issue. Like if they had a massive mortgage payment, right? And it's like eating up so much, but the house is paid for. The house is not their issue. They're their issue. They've not adjusted their lifestyle and learned to control their spending. So, cuz I think where I'm struggling, Danielle, to be honest, if they had called in, I would be like, no, I would not sell your job. If you guys need money, you need to sell your $600,000 house. You guys need to go buy—

Yes.

A $300,000, invest $300,000 of the rest, and that's your retirement. And you gotta learn how to live off of that. And that's a great retirement. It'll double every 7 years. Maybe you guys work a little, you know, like that's, I would advise them not to do it. it just as much as I would advise you not to do it for your own self. Mm-hmm. And, and, you know, and your fiancé, I'm just telling you, 4 years into this thing, what if you guys wanna move? Well, your parents are in the backyard, and when you're trying to sell this house because he's gotten a job somewhere.

Yeah.

It's, you know what I mean? Like it puts your parents in a bind again. Yeah.

Very tangled.

So like it's a, it's a, it feels like a short-term solution that for a long-term play. is gonna be really problematic.

Mm-hmm.

And I, and I get how you got here though. Like, it makes sense. Like, you look at it on paper and it, but when you play real life through it all, um, it has the potential to really mess with your relationships, honestly.

Yes. On a, on a major level.

And it, and it just handcuffs you to this property forever and ever until they decide to move one day. Cuz you can't sell it. You could never sell that home, you know?

Yeah.

Well, I think where our mind was is kind of like, cuz we've been looking for a home. And we've run into the same scenario of like, things are just so expensive right now. You know, interest rates are super high.

Sure.

Homes are expensive. Will we ever be able to afford a home? So I think that it was like, oh, well maybe we can help them at the same time as this is kind of beneficial for us too.

Yeah, no, I hear that. I totally hear that. And I think I almost would be okay with the scenario if they weren't living in the back.

Yeah.

And they weren't dependent upon that money for retirement. Do you know what I mean? Like if they were set up well.

Yeah.

And they were like, you know what, we've done well, we're fine.

Yes.

We're gonna gift our child $300,000 of equity. That's a beaut. That's a great, like what a great deal if that was the case.

Right. Oh, wow.

And you could afford the home, all of it. Um, it's out of their desperation that makes me nervous and that you guys are gonna be attached to this property because they're living there. It's, it's the same thing when we talk to families that they wanna buy lots altogether.

Uh-huh.

Well then it traps everyone that they can't move. Cuz if, if brother and, you know, brother and sister-in-law wanna move, we, we don't want strangers living next door. This was supposed to be our family thing.

Like, right, right.

Yeah. It sounds really good.

Um, until you actually have—

I'm just, I'm just nervous for you in that. And again, at, it's because of their desperation.

I don't like it.

And I, and, and the proximity, um, that traps you in that property.

Okay.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. So if it were in perfect terms and I convinced my parents to sell their house and they say, okay, we're fine, we come up with the number, is putting it into like— because I know that if they sell it to me or if they give it to me or however that works, like one day in the future, say that I don't even buy it, you know, they just want to pass it down to me. What is the best way that they could pass it down to to me where I won't later in life be hit with a bunch of taxes on that property?

Yeah, it would be left in an inheritance. Like if you just do a will or a trust and that property is deeded to you at their death.

Oh, okay.

Because you want the step-up in basis. If you buy it before, you're gonna take the tax hit when you sell it from when they first purchased it. But if they keep this home and, you know, God willing, they live another, you know, 20 years, I don't know how old they are, and they pass, then in 2046, in 20 years, you know what I mean? When it gets handed to you in their inheritance, whatever that house is worth then is the value. So when you sell it, you wouldn't have taxes. You wouldn't have to pay taxes on a, oh my gosh, what it could be, a, I'm making this up, a $2 million home. But they bought it for $300,000.

It's like you get to start restarting.

Yes, exactly. Yep. It would be in that. And I would say too, I'm trying to run quick numbers for you, 'cause it would be about a $3,000 a month mortgage payments if you did this deal. And you just wanna make sure with your income, and I hesitate to even put the fiancé, 'cause you guys aren't married yet, making sure that it's a fourth of y'all's take-home pay to just at least be in good parameters of a mortgage for you guys.

Listen guys, I've heard just about every excuse for why folks think they can't get ahead with money. So let's go ahead and settle this right now. You get the final say on what happens with your money. That's why you have to start telling your money where to go.

That's right.

So you can stop wondering where it went. So if you're gonna start winning with money, you have to get on a budget. And the easiest way to get started and stick to it is with the EveryDollar budget app. It'll help you make a plan for every single dollar coming in and every single dollar going out every single month. And guess what? It's free. So no excuses. Download EveryDollar in the App Store or Google Play today.

Our Scripture of the Day comes from Matthew 10:31. Do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. Taylor Swift said, I think fearless is having fears but jumping anyway. Listen, we love Taylor. She has much better, deeper lyrics in some of her songs than I quote. That was, do you know, jump anyway, y'all. I think, my God, I don't know. You may not wanna jump. You may not wanna jump. Maybe the fear is good in some situations.

Maybe it's keeping you.

Yeah. Fear can be a gift. I read that book.

Yeah.

The Gift of Fear.

Yes.

It's a great book about like your instinct and like fear is a gift. God gives you sometimes a, hey, maybe I shouldn't do this. But, you know, anyways, but also do not be afraid, he says in Matthew. So we'll take that too.

I see the connection, but hey, we love it.

All right, let's go to Tucson, and we have Carrie on the line. Hi, Carrie, welcome to the show.

Hi, Jade.

Hi, Rachel.

Thank you so much for taking my call today.

Absolutely. How can we help?

I'm calling on behalf of my parents. who are currently in Baby Step 7. They are 75 and 76 and have roughly a total of $1.6 million in retirement accounts.

Oh, good for them.

Yes, they've done really good. 3 of those accounts are IRAs. And with their current income sources, they aren't touching any of the RMDs that are coming out of those. So, they're just kind of putting it into a checking account and then transferring it over to a brokerage account.

Okay. How much is that a month? I'm just curious.

I don't have the specific amount, but I know they have about $200,000 in their checking account.

Okay.

Cool.

And they, I don't know, listening to The Dave Ramsey Show and The Backdoor Roth, IRA, if that would be a good option, or if they're even able to take the money that they're getting from the RMDs and applying that to the taxes in order to do the backdoor Roth IRA. They are 75 and 76.

Mm-hmm.

And so, I didn't know if age had a factor on that or not, or if you guys would recommend them doing And you're talking about them taking from a traditional IRA and converting it to a Roth or starting a Roth?

That's a good question. Yep.

It would be taking from the— it would be using the RMDs coming from their IRA account and using that money to pay taxes in order to transfer the money that's in their IRAs currently over to a backdoor Roth.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

Yeah. How much is it? Do you know how much is in? Because you said multiple IRAs.

Yeah.

Like, which IRA would they want to convert to that Roth? Do you know? And how much money there is in that account?

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, they each have their own IRA that are both about $400,000.

Okay.

And then my father has a SIMPLE IRA Which is also around $400,000.

So are they going to— what's their strategy on this? Are they like, so for instance, the one IRA with the $400,000, is the plan to convert all of that to Roth funds? Or like, is there a strategy there yet? Or are they just— go ahead.

There isn't a strategy yet.

We were just calling to kind of see if it would be a good path to pursue.

I think there's a lot of moving parts in this. And so I would sit down with a SmartVestor Pro on this because the short answer is yes, they could take the RMDs that they have to take and they could use that to help pay for the tax bill on the conversion. Short answer is yes. But the long answer is what's the best way to do this over time so that the taxes feel right for them? I think, and that's the part that you want the strategy on. Yeah, I do.

Versus just kind of, Do you know what their tax rate would be?

They're in the highest bracket right now.

Okay. So 37%.

Okay.

Listen, I say this with all caution in the world. I just threw it in chat just to be like, hey, what would it— and again, I would 100% though say to sit down with a SmartVestor Pro, Carrie. If you go to ramseysolutions.com, I would sit down with someone in person just because they have enough of a network worth to figure out strategically how to make this money work best for them. Because it may, I think it's, I mean, it's looking like it might be $148,000 in taxes to do it. Um, now with the growth because of their age, I mean, they, are they in good health?

Um, they are.

Okay.

They're relatively good health.

Because I just wonder, you know, another 15 years of that growing tax-free probably would be worth paying those taxes. It's just gonna be a big tax bill. For sure, yes. And I wouldn't want them spending all their liquid cash on that though. I would want it to be, again, above and beyond that they're still comfortable and good from a cash perspective in order to pay a massive tax bill in order to convert it. And you don't even have to do it all at once too, Carrie. Like they could do it, you know, over the next 3 to 4 years and just take chunks each year and convert it and just pay taxes, you know, over the next 4 years, right? And you can break it up that way. But that's the strategicness that we were talking about of, or the strategy, strategicness. I don't think that's the word.

Strategery.

So yes, strategery.

That's it.

That's it.

Yeah.

The strategy, you know, that a SmartVestor Pro really could look and maximize so much from not only a tax perspective with them, but even investments.

Yeah, for sure.

Because it's enough to, it's a great question. And listen, we're a big fan of Roths.

Roths.

And because if they pass to Carrie and that's all converted to Roth, that's gonna be passed down to you tax-free. And you don't have to take RMDs, I don't think, until 10 years after it's inherited.

That's right.

So it's a good legacy play too on their end to do it. I just wanna make sure that there's, that they feel comfortable with the amount of cash that they'll be paying in those taxes. Because I don't know how much they're having to take out every month. 'Cause I'm not sure if you knew that number of what they're already having to take out, but that could be a great play. So I hate to be so vague. My gut is, and from what I'm feeling is a yes, but I don't know the best way from a tax perspective to do it if you break it up over a couple of years and get that moved over, or if you do it all at once. You probably would want to break it up. So yeah, that's what I would suggest. But again, I would sit down with a SmartVestor Pro to run those numbers with somebody. But man, what a wise, long-thinking, long-term thinking question.

Absolutely. Because I mean, when you really think about it, I feel like it is more of a, Obviously, there's certain generations that tend to have more traditional money. I think our generation is starting to understand that Roth is like the way to go.

Yes.

And so when we look at our parents, it's like, okay, we wanna make sure that that money, if it's being passed to us, number one, we're not having to pay the taxes when we pull it out. And to your point, even having that 10-year buffer of not having to drain the account, that's more time for it to grow, right? Oh my gosh, yes. So just the exponential growth that can take place by making that choice is—

I love it.

I mean, huge.

Yes. Thanks for the call, Carrie. All right, I'm gonna go to a Rachel social question from Rachel in the Baby Steps community. Is it too early to start a sinking fund for Christmas gifts if you're in Baby Step 2? We kind of touched on this a little bit in the show when it comes to sinking funds in Baby Step 2. So I would say yes, I think it's a little too early. I mean, if you wanna put a little away and get your kids, you know, something for Christmas. Some people, depending on the numbers in their Baby Step 2 and how long it's gonna take 'em, if you can get outta debt in 9 months, there's a little me that's like, listen, go to the dollar store, wrap a couple things. Be like, guys, Christmas is gonna look different this year. Next Christmas is gonna be awesome. But if you're in Baby Step 2 for 4 years and you're like, okay, we need a breather.

Yeah, figure it out.

We need to have a little something for the kids.

And it depends on their age. I mean, yes, let's be realistic here because if you've got, like, I'm gonna go with, obviously if you've got below a 1-year-old, forget about it.

Like, below 3, I don't think they, they don't even know.

They don't really know.

Yeah. You can rewrap what they already have.

But even like 1-year-olds, 3-year-olds, like 1-year-olds to 3-year-olds, I'm dollar store. Anything that shakes, rattles.

Yes.

Snaps, pops.

Like, yeah, keep it, be smart about that. Yeah. And think about Christmas coming up, you guys. I mean, honestly, I think so much of us buying stuff for our kids is more for us than them. I mean, even my first grader, he just loves Hot Wheels, and they're a dollar at Target. You wrap 10 of those and he opens 10 of them.

What does he know?

He's happy. He's fine. He's good. Oh, what a great show, Jade. Thanks to everyone in the booth for making this happen. And remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.