Transcript of You Can’t Win Without a Clear Goal

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Normal is broken. Common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life from the Ramsey Network here in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. This is The Ramsey Show. I'm Jade Warshaw. Next to me, Dr. John Delony. We're going to take your calls all hour long.

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We've got Michael Michael, who's in Springfield, Missouri on line 1. Hey, Michael.

Hi, how's it going?

Doing all right. How can we help?

Hey, so I am currently being offered a position in the company I work for that would require me to relocate to a much more expensive area. I was just calling to see how much should I push for? I like the company and I like the position, so I don't want to push too hard and have it get offered to somebody else. But I also don't want to undersell myself.

So is this, is this something that you're viewing as salary or is it a moving stipend? Like, how are you viewing the structure of this?

So I am paid hourly. The relocation costs would all be paid for the company card that I have. So I would use that, you know, pay for the U-Haul or movers or however that's done.

But is your hourly wage going to stay the same in this new, a new position?

That's what, that's what That's what I'm asking is how much I should ask for. We haven't gotten to the negotiation on what the salary would be for it or anything. Do you have a sense of what it should—

do you have a sense of what it is?

So right now I make $42 an hour.

Okay.

And I live pretty comfortably in Springfield. I'm looking at the area I would be relocating to rent-wise. It looks like it's about $1,000 to $1,200 more for about the same rental in the area.

Uh-huh.

But that means groceries are gonna be that much more expensive. Tires will be that much more expensive. Yeah.

Right.

There, there's websites with cost of living index.

Uh-huh.

That you can put in one zip code and it will compare it to another. I don't, I don't know 'em off top of my head, but I've done it before. Um, that I like, I, if you make this much money in this zip code, you'd need to make this much money in that zip code for it to be comparable. My bigger question is, Why, what is it about this position? Because it sounds like you're about to cash in on a place where you like living and you make a great hourly, like a really great hourly wage. What is it about this position you're worried about somebody else taking if it's gonna move you to a town where you don't know anybody, it's gonna be expensive in your overall life. This life you're building is gonna be of less quality.

So I really like the company I'm working for.

Yeah.

And this position would just move me up a level in this company.

Okay.

Kind of give me a quick boost in where I'm, uh, how you like ranking with the company.

Okay. So would it be something that area— go ahead.

Sorry. The area is, it's a very nice area, obviously with cost of living.

Where is it?

You'd expect it to be nice. It is Charleston, South Carolina. Okay. They have From what I can see, they have really good schools there, but like I said, it is much more expensive. That's the, that's the only thing I'm really worried about with this.

So if I take a quick look, um, and I would do this if I were you, I would just pull it up. Like you could use a comparable, like what John said, or you could, you know, look in ChatGPT and see. But just me doing the search for you, if I worked in Springfield, Missouri and I was making $42 an hour, if I wanted to move to Charleston, the equivalent would be somewhere around $60 an hour. So you'd go from making $87 a year to maybe $133 a year. And for cost of living, that's what they're saying is equivalent. This is just one search. I'm not saying this is the be-all end-all. This is just me doing literally 30 seconds of research to try to see. And then from there on, I'd keep going. I'd keep going down the rabbit hole and try to compare that a little bit further to see if you're, if you're on point or if you're way off. But that's, that's, that's the type of work that I'd be doing to try to figure out this number.

And don't, don't leave it to chance. Like actually look up, you've, you've looked up rents, look up restaurants, look up local expenses and actually get real numbers in front of you. But again, I wanna go back to my original question and I didn't ask it good when I first asked it. Um, my expectation for any company, if you're getting promoted and asked to move across the country, it's gonna come with a significant salary change. And so either you haven't asked any questions at all, like you, you're just kind of flying blind here. Ah, or this company's not as great as you think they are. You know what I'm saying?

Like this was brought up to me yesterday, so we haven't—

okay. Okay. I'm trying to be, uh, like have all my notes in line and everything when I When I try to bring this up, my negotiating rules when it comes to, I always ask, is, is there a salary range for this position or what's this, what's this position going to pay?

Yeah. It feels far down the line to not know anything about salary.

Exactly. And I'm always cautious when some, when a, when a business comes and says, hey, we've identified you for this job, you should take it. They're imposing their set of values on your life. You know what I mean? And it may be that you do the math and not only the math, but like, we get— I, I, dude, I've just been there. I, I've wanted to move up in an organization so bad that I didn't stop and ask myself, what kind of life do I want? And I— there's places where you'll go where you might have to say, like, I would love to have this job. I'd even love to have this salary, but I don't want that life.

Right?

Because most companies, man, they, if they're gonna pay you a lot, they're gonna expect a lot and rightfully so. And so you just have to ask yourself, do I want this life more than I just, I like this company. I wanna move up this company. But dude, my guess is if they're asking you to move across the company. They're giving you a promotion. They're eyeing you as a future leader of this place. Um, it's gonna, the money should take care of itself. And if they come back and say, we're gonna give you a dollar an hour extra, boom, then you're gonna take a net financial loss, which I'll even say this, I've taken pay cuts to get to the position I wanted or get to the place I wanted. Cuz I trusted myself that over the next couple years I would get to where I wanted to be financially. And that's worked out for me every time, but that's not always the case. And so if you say for 2 years, I'll take this, I'm gonna take a cut in salary and as a family we're gonna make this sacrifice because it puts me in a position for the next move.

That's, that's all fine and good. Just make those decisions clear-eyed.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Is it just you, Michael, or do you have a family?

I have my niece that lives with me and I have my son.

Okay. Yeah. Uh, just to kind of consolidate everything we just said, the first thing I would do is do what John said. I would just ask, you know, in a, in a fine way, hey, is there a salary range? We've not, we've not talked about compensation at all. I just wanna get an idea. for what that might be. And then you can take that and yeah, tonight I would go, uh, do some research and look further into it. And the biggest thing you wanna look at, because we talked about restaurants, we talked about childcare, childcare, we talked about apartments, but eventually if this is the job you want, you're gonna wanna purchase a house. And again, just a quick search, I can see the cost of living for purchasing a home is significantly higher, uh, in Charleston than it is in Springfield. So those are the types of things that you wanna just have in your back pocket, uh, as you're doing that negotiation so you can real really feel confident about what you're asking for and know that you're not asking for something out of just trying to get more money or trying to be greedy or anything like that, but you're, it's, it's a, there's a fair basis for what you're asking for and it actually makes sense.

How old are you, brother?

I'm 27.

Okay.

I'll be 28 this year.

Most any supervisor you have when they're promoting you or you're working on, on getting another job somewhere, it can feel awkward to ask for a dollar amount. A good respectable company, a good respectable leader, a good respectable businessman will know this is just business and we're making a deal here. And if somebody looks down on you cuz you think you're worth this much, now obviously you can be obnoxious and way off range.

Yeah.

But if you say, hey, I've got 2 kids I'm taking care of, I'm a single dad, I'm, I'm handling this stuff and this is what I would like. Um, hold your head up high when you have that conversation. Be willing to take feedback, but don't go in there with your head down. Like, what are you gonna give me? Be confident in asking for what you need and what you would like.

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All right, all right, let's go to Kyle who's in Lake City, Florida. Hi Kyle, how can John and I help?

Hey, um, I wanted to see if y'all could help me put together a plan to clear all of my debt and be on the road to passive income.

I'd love that. But tell me more about the passive income.

Yeah, you said passive income, dude. Come on.

What do you mean by that?

I really would love to own rental properties.

Okay. Got it. Okay. So tell us where you're at today and we'll help you come up with a route to financial peace and wealth.

I just bought a house 2 weeks ago. For $215,000 in Lake City. Um, I do have a little bit of debt, uh, personal loan, it's $5,500. I have a little bit of credit card debt between me and my wife, it's around roughly $7,000.

Okay.

And, uh, I mean, I think that's all of our debt. Okay.

What are you guys making?

Uh, I'm the only one that works. She stays home with the kids. Uh, I make around roughly $72,000, $75,000 a year.

Okay, and what do you take home currently a month?

It differs because I work so much overtime, but anywhere from, I'd say, $4,000 to $3,600 to $4,200.

Okay, $3,600 to $4,200. That feels a little bit lower. You pulling out for investing?

I do have a Roth IRA set up for my son and myself.

Okay. Alrighty then. Okay, so I like your goals. I like the things that you're saying. I like the things that you've already started putting in place, which is I do want to start investing for the future. You clearly know that home ownership is an important part of the equation. The only thing that I would tweak is the order that we're doing this so that you can get the most bang for your buck, number one, and so that you can really be on a firm foundation as far as your financial foundation is considered. So keep that in mind as I lay out for you what I would do if I were in your shoes and what I am doing as someone who is, I mean, kind of in your shoes, right? So the first thing that I would do, Kyle, is I would pay off this debt because as long as you have debt, number one, you have risk in your life. And as long as you're making debt payments, you don't have the full income, your full income at your disposal to use it to build wealth, to use it to buy income property. Would you agree with that?

Correct.

Okay.

So that is thing one. So let's figure out how can we pay off this debt? Do you have any money saved?

I do not.

Okay.

I've kind of just, I've drained, drained myself moving into this house.

Got it. Okay. So that would be my first order of business is I gotta pay off this debt. I don't have any savings. So I'm actually in a really precarious situation here. No savings.

Yes, sir.

Lots of risk. So numero uno is I want to get $1,000 saved. We'd call that Baby Step 1 around here. I'm gonna tell you about 7 different steps to get you to where you want to be. The first step is $1,000 saved. It's not the be-all end-all. You're probably thinking, Jade, that's not much at all. It's not. It's just enough that if something happens, you know, the car breaks down, you have a flat tire, something pops up that you forgot about, you don't have to use a credit card or go into debt in order to cover it. Okay. So how quickly do you think— Yep. How quickly do you think you could get $1,000 saved? Most people do it in 30 days.

I currently own 2 vehicles and I'm trying to sell one of them. So I mean, that would be my emergency fund.

Okay. How quickly— I mean, how long has the car been for sale?

Uh, roughly 2 weeks.

2 weeks. Okay. Uh, I like that idea, but I also like you going out and selling something that you can offload quickly, picking up a part-time job, having kind of a backup plan in case the car doesn't sell in the next 2 weeks, because you need that $1,000. And then if you do that, when that car does sell, you can actually use that to start paying off more of this debt. Right. Okay, so these cars that you're selling, what will they bring?

Um, I'm trying to sell it for $4,500, but I mean, on the low end, it might bring $3,000.

Okay, and then what will you drive?

I have a, uh, a truck.

Okay, that's paid off?

Yes. Okay, all of our vehicles are paid off.

Okay, great. So offloading this vehicle, working extra, not only will you have Baby Step 1 saved, but now you can do Baby Step 2. You can start to pay off this debt smallest to largest. So I think I heard you say $5,500 on a personal loan and $7,000 in credit cards. Is it just one credit card for $7,000 or is it multiples?

No, there's two credit cards.

Okay, so whatever is the smallest one, start with that one. You'll be able to knock it out, uh, and maybe some of the next one when you sell this vehicle. But do you see what I'm getting at?

Yes, snowball.

Yep. And then once that's done, now we can go to Baby Step 3. Do you know what it is?

No, ma'am.

Okay. 3 to 6 months of expenses. And what I mean by that, it's not 3 to 6 months of paychecks. It's 3 to 6 months of what it takes to keep your household operating. So you need to know that number. And if you don't know that, you'll figure it out when you do your EveryDollar budget. We'll make sure you have it before you get off the line. So those are your top 3 goals. And it's going to take you a couple of months to accomplish that. It's not going to take you all year. I think that you're, you've got the money and you can go fast on this. But once you've got that, now we start the wealth building phase. Then we can start investing 15% into retirement. We can turn that nozzle back on, 15% of your gross income into retirement every single month. You can start with a Roth IRA. If you have access to a 401 through your employer, you can do that. And then at the same time, You can put a little aside for your kids' college, and if you have extra money to throw out the mortgage, you can do that.

And that's how we're building wealth. All of those things, uh, making sure we have savings, which is, uh, basically insurance against debt, right? Having that 3 to 6 months, making sure that we're investing in retirement so that when the day comes and we are not able to work anymore, there's money. Making sure that we're utilizing the forced savings account, which is the equity in our home. Right. And then finally, after that, now we can start saving up to pay cash for real estate, which is the only way, John, that we would suggest buying real estate.

Yeah. Listen, brother, like the words passive income, they just give me hemorrhoids now, dude, because it's not real. Like if you ask any landlord who's truly invested in their properties, it's a, it's a hard life. Right. And this idea that you're just gonna buy something with no money down. I mean, that's what, how Dave went bankrupt. Just gonna buy something with no money down. It, it's, and they're just gonna make all these payments. Nobody tells you about the roof that goes out or the air conditioner that fails. And if you've bought something, uh, with no money down or 5% down, and you're trying to just get the, the renter to cover this, nobody tells you about COVID anymore when they suspended rents for a year or more, depending on where you live. Like, it's just, it's a recipe for disaster. And so if you save up the money to buy a rental property and you wanna have your own, that's a, a great, that's amazing. And that cash will come in and it will, you'll build up a stockpile of cash to replace the roof and the air conditioners and whatnot. But it sounds to me like what you need is to start thinking about, is this a career I want or can I work side hustles?

Can I work jobs on the weekends? Can I build the career I have to create this extra financial margin because the fantasy of I'm just going to buy a bunch of rental properties and just let them set off to the side and they're going to do their own thing. It's just not for most people. It's just not real, especially if you're in a place where I'm going to get 2 or 3. And I hear that all the time, Jade, but they cash flow.

Yeah.

And it's like right now, right now they do. Or if there's a dip in the market and like, like I went through in '08 and '09, like selling the house is worth half of what, right? It's just, there's so many variables out there.

Absolutely.

And it's just this idea that I'm just gonna get checks mailed to my house, like Publisher's Clearinghouse in the old days, it's just not real.

Yeah, having the right expectations, I think going in is so important. I feel like that's what you're laying out. If you think that it's gonna be easy, you've set yourself up for failure. And not to say, I mean, there's people out there who do it, right? There's people who go about that route. But the truth is what I laid out for you is, a proven plan, it's a proven structure. It's worked for the last 30 years. I did it, George Campbell did it, John Delony did it. We've all done it and it's worked for us. And not only that, but we talk to folks every day and we see the results of that plan. It's 7 steps. And I didn't get to the last one. The last one is you finally have no debt, no payments. You're able to live and give like no one else. And so if you follow this structure, Kyle, or anybody who's listening, if you follow this, you're gonna become a person who is a financially responsible adult. You're going to build wealth, right? The time is gonna pass anyway. You're going to build that wealth. You're gonna have peace.

You're gonna have freedom in your finances. And this is the way to do it. This is the way to do it with the least amount of risk and the least amount of friction and the most amount of control over your actual money.

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All right, John, let's get into it because what some people don't realize is that wills are so important. If you don't have a will, you better get one, cuz here's some of the information that people don't realize about wills. They're not about your age or how much stuff you have. That is the number one thing that people say to me. I don't need a will. I don't have that much stuff, or I don't need a will.

I'm not old.

Guys, if you're an adult with people you love, if you have kids, if you have pets, if you have anything that you want handled a certain way, you need a will. It gives your family clear direction when they need it the most. So if you're ready to create one, I want you to go to Mama Bear Legal. Will.com. That's where I made my will with Sam Warshaw. And if you're a person who's like, hey Jade, I don't know if I need a will. I'm just not really sure where to start. I want you to text the word quiz to the number 33789. Okay? Text quiz to 33789 and we'll help you figure out which option fits your situation.

And I'm gonna speak to this, what you just said a second ago, like, I don't have that much stuff. Just imagine you're 21 and you're, you're in your first apartment and you have a guitar that you like.

And even if you thought, I'm gonna get my guitar to my buddy.

If I die, I'm giving it to my buddy. Cool. But I want you to understand, if you, something was to happen to you, you get in a car, something god-awful happens, right? And your mom goes up to the apartment and says, I want to get in there and get my daughter's clothes or my son's clothes. Yes.

Thank you, Jonathan.

They're going to say, no, you don't have legal right to this stuff. We got to give it to the state. And then your family has to go fight the state for that photo of your grandparents. Don't do, like, it's, and it's as simple as getting online with Mama Bear Wills. Again, when we moved from Texas to Tennessee, That's what I, I went to Monbrea Wills and made a will just until I got covered, until I got here and could sit down with an estate person. But like, so this is something that Jayden has used is what I've used.

Mm-hmm.

But it's something that simple. It doesn't cost hardly anything. And you can just, so that your mom can walk up, your dad can walk up and get your stuff. And if you've got kids, you got pets, God help you, dude. Like, yeah, man, you gotta have protection for your family. It's just a way of saying I love you when you can't say it yourself anymore and go get a will. There's no reason to not have a will.

I agree. I'm so glad you said that because it's so true. I, I said it in the little read here, but it's true. That's the number one thing is people say, I don't have anything that's important. And if you just stop and think about the people who are important to you, that, that's the exercise. Think about the people who are important to you and how much you value little things— a cookbook, uh, you know, a piece of jewelry, that, that pair of shoes, like whatever it is there are things that you value about other people. It's the little things. I can tell you, and I know you feel the same, it's the little things that when you receive them, you're like, "Oh, I love it." Or maybe it's not stuff.

Maybe it's not even a piece of jewelry. It is giving your folks, your older sister, your younger brother, let them go to your apartment and pack your things up as part of the healing process, right? And I know this sounds so morbid, but give them the grace that they don't have to go fight some, some faceless, nameless bureaucrat, or some apartment owner, or some rental house owner for an opportunity to grieve. Like, just get a will done. I don't care who you are, where, get a will done, man.

I agree. All right. Yes.

My son's not 16. I mean, he's 16. He's not 18. He has a long written out, here's, you know what I mean? He gave it to me. And when he turns 18, that'll be one of the first things we do is, "I want you to take ownership of this." And you know, we should have said this too.

If you have children, You're tripping if you don't have a will, because that is just— if you don't have a will and you have children, the state will decide what happens with your children.

That's right. My buddy John says the only reason to not have a will, if you're married with kids, is if you hate your spouse and kids.

Man, I know that's right.

That's the only reason to not have one.

Yeah, okay.

So get a will.

Get a will. All right, we've made you feel guilty.

No, I'm not trying to make you feel guilty. I'm just saying, like, there's just no— there's just no excuse.

It's adulting.

It's adulting, 100%. All right, let's go to the phone lines where we have Madison in Denver, Colorado. Hey, Madison, how can we help?

Hi, guys. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm a longtime listener and big fan.

Thanks for calling. What's up?

So I am wondering if my husband and I are morally obligated to give his sister $5,000 to pay a retainer for a lawyer.

Why would you be morally obligated to pay someone else's legal fees, Madison?

So a little backstory, she got into this relationship about 2 years ago, married the man despite all of our family's warnings, has a 6-month-old baby with him, and he is emotionally and mentally abusive. And so she was kind of having conversations with us about wanting to leave him because of the abuse that was occurring. And, you know, in one of those heated family moments, you know, my husband said, you know, if you need money, like, we'll help you out, like, we're helping, we're not gonna let you fall on your face. And so that was kind of the backstory of the conversation that was had. And then yesterday, um, she came to my husband asking for $5,000 to pay the retainer. You know, I think initially, I think it's less about the money. We're in a good spot. We're in Baby Steps 4, 5, and 6. I think his family knows that we do pretty well financially. Uh-huh. And we're kind of getting pressure from other family members about, you know, hey, you should give you should give her the money. And I think initially I was on board for that. I didn't think that it would be $5,000, but also I thought that there was going to be behavior change associated with this.

And since she has left them, I mean, it's been pretty erratic spending. She got back into alcoholism a little bit, and part of me just really feels in my soul that this is a bad choice.

Okay, and I was gonna say that, um, and this is no— this is no gotcha, uh, by any means, but when the way you laid out the question, let me know that you already didn't wanna do it because no one frames up giving as a moral obligation if they already kind of know it's not a moral obligation. So, when you said that, I was like, "She doesn't wanna give this money. She's got a good reason." I already knew that you were gonna get to that. I think, you know, it's not a moral obligation for you to do this. The question is, do you want to do this? That's question one. Do you want to do this? Is this a need that you feel like you want to meet? I think is the question that I'd ask. And there's part of this, Madison, that I wanna take them, even though they're the people that you would be helping or enabling, deciding on how you wanna view this, I wanna take them out of the subject for a moment. Jon, tell me if I'm wrong here. When I look at—

Go ahead, okay.

Let me lay it out. When I look at this, I see people that you love and people that you love struggling. Right? And so, yeah, it's hard to watch people that you love struggling. So part of the question you have to ask yourself is, is it going to be harder for me to watch them struggle and go to sleep every night knowing, man, they're struggling. Maybe I should have helped. Maybe I shouldn't have helped. Is that gonna be more of a soul tax on you? Or is it gonna be more of a soul tax to be like, I can help in some way. Let's decide what that helpful way is and put a boundary around it and be wise there. And then will I sleep better at night if I do that thing? And then I'm not watching them struggle in the same way. That's kind of what I go through in my mind. And I think that that could be a helpful way to think through it for you and kind of remove them and their drama from the situation for a moment.

And I'll add some complexity. Is that cool, Madison? 'Cause I know this is already a simple enough issue in your home, right?

Yeah.

To me, there's two separate issues going on here. And I'd have to think through philosoph— like, I'd have to go down a rabbit hole and get all morose and like sit in my room with my light, like my dark lamps and think about this. This, like the word moral obligation. Okay. Um, I tend— my, my impulse here, so just take this as for what it is, my bias, my gut instinct here. This has nothing to do with her. And this has everything to do with— I think all of us have a moral obligation to help kids.

Yeah.

Okay. So my first impulse is forget this adult who's misbehaving, who we told her, don't get with this guy. Cause that's clouding this whole issue right now. You got a kid.

Yeah.

Your niece or nephew is in an abusive household. And I'm coming guns a-blazin' for the kid, right?

Yeah.

And so I, I, I'd have to, I'd have to sit down and say, is that moral? This, uh, who knows?

But, but that's separate from the money.

I would feel, right. I'd feel an obligation about getting involved there. Now, the second thing that seems like it's clouding it is, can I just, I'm gonna be crass. Okay. I'm just gonna say it. And yeah, I might over, overstate my case a little bit. You don't like her, right? You don't like his dysfunctional family telling you what to do. You don't like that suddenly you want to do something nice and now it's on you. And your husband's the one who said, we'll help you and do whatever. So he laid it out.

I—

if this was me in my house, I would not write her one penny. I would maybe commit to paying the attorney fee directly.

Yes, so good, John.

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All right, let's get right back into it where we have Andy who's in Rochester, Minnesota. What's up, Andy?

Oh, not too bad. How are you guys?

Doing all right. How can we help today?

I may have created a savings monster out of my husband, and he is just anxious that we aren't saving enough for retirement. And I feel like we are. And I feel like we're in a good spot where we can kind of pull back a little bit.

Okay, let's do something that's very culturally out of step.

Okay.

For you and your husband, let's stop feeling for a second and let's just look at math. 'Cause investment's a math problem. It's a number.

Yep.

So when you say, I feel like we have enough, and he says, I feel like we don't have enough, you're always gonna be at an impasse because you're expecting, um, your bodies to solve a problem they weren't designed to solve. What's the math y'all are dealing with right now?

So we, so over the last couple years we've paid off over $400,000. Wow. And we just kept that in 10 Yeah, so we just kept that. I know, it's been kind of wild.

Is that including a mortgage?

No, that does not include a mortgage. Student loans, a car.

Girlfriend, this is a very exclusive club that you're in. Way to go.

Yeah, so we just kept that intensity and just threw all the money we were at debt into investing because we're like, we don't have kids, we're, you know, freewheeling it. So, wow.

So what do you currently have in investing?

About $1 million.

Wow, wow, wow.

Okay.

And, you know, now that we have 2 kids, you know, it would be great not to live off of like $3,200 a month and just sure have a little more to live off.

What do y'all both like? What's your combined take-home income?

Um, about $180,000. Okay.

Okay. And, uh, how old are you guys?

So I am 32 and my husband is 42.

Oh my gosh, and he's concerned that you're not gonna have enough money for retirement? How much, how much does he think that you need for retirement? Does he have a, a number in his mind, or is it an ever-moving goalpost?

It seems to be an ever-moving goalpost. He's like, I want to create general generational wealth for our kids. I don't I don't want our kids ever worry about having to care for us.

Uh-huh.

Well, if he keeps on this pace, he's not going to have to worry about that because they're not going to know him and they're not going to feel an obligation to care for him.

And if he has a goal, he can honor you both by making it a clear goal. I want to have $33 million. I want to have $25 million. I want to have $15 million, right? He can say what he wants. In a complete way. Do you know what I mean? Versus it being, I don't know when we'll get there, but we gotta get there.

'Cause he's chasing a feeling. I wanna say something and I want Jade to push back if I'm wrong, okay? Are you ready for this, Andy? Jade, I have a struggle and this is a personal struggle 'cause I've made this mistake, I think is a mistake in my own house. When I'm married, We have goals for what we want our life to look like now and down the road.

Right.

I don't get to have my own investing goal that my wife, that I drag my wife behind the back of my truck with. Right? Yes. And vice versa. She can't have, I have a goal to spend this much money every month regardless of what's down the, down the road.

Yeah, you gotta meet in the middle somewhere.

There you go.

At some point.

So Andy, he has a goal for what he wants the future to look like. Like, which is an imaginary goal, right? It's based on a, a gut feeling. And y'all have to sit down and create where y'all want to be, right? Because if he has a goal of generational wealth and you have a goal of relational wealth, you want your kids to have these wild fun memories with the two of you. They, when they think of their dad and they're off at college, they want to smile real big and they can't wait to come home and hug his neck. Like those things are gonna be incompatible at some Right? So we have to say, what is that gonna look like in, in the present tense and in the future? You get what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So let's put some numbers around this in a way that I think you can bring this to him and, and make sense and know that you've done your homework. Okay. So I hear what you're saying and I agree with you. I think at this point, uh, with the money that you've earned, uh, with the debt you've paid off and, and the wealth that you've built, yeah, I think that there might be some, uh, pulling off of the gas pedal that you can do. That being said, let's pretend you did it the Ramsey way and you only invested 15%. I don't know. It sounds like maybe you're investing more than 15%. Is that true?

Yeah, we're probably closer to 40 to 40.

Okay.

And that's, that's, that's outrageous. So let me just— let's bring this to your husband. What's your husband's name?

Andy.

His name is Andy, too?

Yeah, we're Andy Squares.

Oh, your house is awesome.

Now wait one sec. Okay, Andy's. You already have $1 million in retirement. Let's pretend that you just continue to contribute 15%, right? So around $2,200 a month, maybe you did $3,000 a month, and you're only in your 30s, 30 and 32, I think I heard you say. So let's say at the age of retirement, let's say you let this grow until age 60, 62. Do you understand that that's $33 million?

I know I have ran the numbers, but I feel like he needs to hear it. From someone other than me.

Have you shown it to him on it? Have you shown him?

I don't like—

and then when you say, when you say, okay, here's the math, how much money do you think based on your math do we need to retire comfortably and build generational wealth? Challenge him on that level based on your math, not your feelings. Show me the math that you believe the numbers that we need so what we can understand this on a numerical level not just a feelings level, because you disagree on feelings. You feel one way, he feels another way, but we can all agree on math because math doesn't lie, right?

Yeah.

So that's what I would do. And then I would kind of be a little strong on, I believe that $33 million is enough.

That's pretty generational.

I think that's pretty generational. And if you want to build it out further and say, you know, if at this age, this is assuming we don't make any more money, you can go more into the depths if you want to.

But I also think there's something else here, Andy, It's— tell me if I'm reading between the lines here, okay? And I'm happy to be wrong. There's also a part of this, you miss your husband.

Yeah, I mean, it's— I mean, he works so hard, and we do have a lot of fun, and you know, his job allows us to travel the country, but it's like, those are work trips.

Those are work trips.

Well, we actually go with him. His work pays for us to go with him, but he's working.

It's not a family vacation.

So what I'm saying is, at some point, you need to sit down and say, I feel like an accessory to the life that you wanna live. We get to go along on the trips and while you're working, me and the kids are, are, we're forming like parallel lives. You get what I'm saying?

Yeah.

And that's the conversation beneath the dollar amount. I miss you. I wanna build something with you. I don't wanna be along for the ride of whatever it is you're building and doing.

Yeah.

And by the way, we're not, we're, we're talking $30 million.

We're not, if that's not enough, then I may as well give up today.

And none of this is, hear me say, I, none of this is shade on him. I totally get it. Like he wants to work hard. He's scared to death. He's reading the every headline in the world saying that it's all coming down. I get that. He's just trying to go do what he can control, which is I'm gonna make as much money as I can. I totally get that impulse. But the conversations, A, is it's a math problem and y'all are gonna be more than fine barring some wild incident. And if there is some wild incident, you know what, we'll deal with that then. But beneath that is, y'all have two kids, y'all have a different life now, and we have to rebuild our marriage the way we want to build it. And right now it sounds like you're living the life that he's hell-bent on creating, and that's, that's a lonely place to live. Even if you get to go on cool trips, but you don't get to do trips together. You get what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Am I right or am I No, I think you're right.

I think he's just so anxious because both of his parents have literally nothing and we support— we're also supporting them in their retirement. And it's, you know, he just doesn't ever want to put our kids in that position.

It hasn't taken anything away from— it sounds like being able to help them hasn't taken away from your ability to invest 40% every month. Yeah, I think you guys really— I think there is a strong difference between what's happening in reality and what it feels like. And I think you guys need to spend a lot of time looking at— I'm— John, I feel like I'm taking your content here, but looking at the facts.

Just look at facts. Yeah. And, and a definition of anxiety is I'm gonna go to the future and find potential problems and drag it— those problems into the present, try to solve them. You can't. You can't. Y'all have done such an amazing job. Keep saving, keep being generous, but also live and enjoy your lives and feel content for once.

You can never feel content if you don't have a clear picture of what success looks like.

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All right guys, welcome back to the Ramsey Show. We're here in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio continuing to take your calls. We've got Jessica on the line from Dallas, Texas. What's up, Jessica? Jessica, you there?

Hi, can you hear me?

Yeah, yeah.

What's up? Hey, Jade and John, thanks so much for taking my call.

What's up?

I need your help, uh, making a decision. My husband and I are very indecisive, and so we need you all to tell us what to do.

Um, unfortunately, we're good at telling people what to do.

Well, thank you. Unfortunately, my husband lost his job last week and was laid off. Yeah. Yeah, thanks to the Ramsey plan though, we're in good shape. Okay. But we do have an upcoming trip to Hawaii coming in October. I'm just kind of stuck. I feel, I'm not sure if we should go or not.

I understand that.

Yeah.

Let's take, we'll get to the emotional part because that's big. Let's be crass and just talk math.

Mm-hmm.

So if y'all have no debt and you have $1 million in cash, cash in the bank, or not, that was, that was dumb. If you have a quarter million dollars in the bank and this trip is going to cost 10 grand, that's one, that's one thing. If y'all are newly debt-free and but you still have your mortgage and it's going to be pretty tight, that's a different thing, right? So where are y'all financially?

So we are debt-free except for our mortgage. Um, and I, I will say the trip is paid for, like our flights and hotels paid for. So this is basically just our spending money and boarding our dogs. So I'm thinking around $3,000, um, for those two things.

Okay.

Um, I work, so I bring home around $5,600 a month.

Okay.

Um, and my husband is actually— he's being paid through August, and then in September he's receiving a lump sum settlement of $40,000.

Okay.

Before taxes.

Okay. So he's getting $40,000. What other emergency funds do you have?

We have $21,000 in like the designated emergency fund. And then we have about $25,000 in various other sinking funds for things that we would be able to access, you know, in the case of an emergency or, you know, if we were really in a bind.

The biggest part of this is your income, the $5,600 a month. Month. Can your household run on $5,600? I mean, I know it might not have all the bells and whistles, but can you guys live on that without having to touch other money?

Uh, I mean, if we went back to how we lived in Baby Step 2, um, well, that's not what I mean by not all the bells and whistles.

Yeah, you could pay the mortgage, pay the, you know, keep everything running. You may not be able to take as many vacations, may not do as much shopping or eating out, right? But everything can keep going on the $5,600?

Uh, I mean, realistically it's around $7,500, but if I needed to, I could walk that— we could walk that back even more.

I think you should do that regardless with a job loss.

Yes.

And here's why. There's, there's the math problem part, but there's also the, like, you, you, you're in a big storm. And so I would— it's, it's a thing you could control when things feel like they're out of And so, just the exercise of you and him sitting down saying, "Okay, our lives have changed drastically for this season. Let's control— one thing we can control is how much we go out." And one thing we can control— and it helps you metabolize this loss. And it's a loss. Getting laid off out of nowhere is a loss, right?

And you can't control when the next job is gonna hit.

That's right.

He's gonna get a new job. We just don't know when. And going back to the trip, especially going back to that Hawaii trip, I appreciate that the flights and everything like that are paid for, but I, and I don't think that the trip is going to change your life if you go or if you don't go. But if you choose to go, which I think is probably okay.

I would, yeah.

I don't think you're going to enjoy the trip if you haven't done the math that Jon and I are talking about. If you don't feel good knowing, hey, we can exist on the $5,600, we did it before, we'll do it again. This is how we'll do it. We've already looked at the plan. I think if you know all of that, that, then you'll be able to go and you'll actually be able to relax on the beach.

Yeah.

And I also don't— y'all are in the grief stage here. I— it, it's like if you lose somebody close to you, there's that sense when it happens, I'm never going to laugh again. Like the thought of doing something fun down the road seems absurd. The truth is y'all have set yourself up. You've already paid for 90% of this trip, you're gonna have $100,000 cash between the 40 grand that you get paid and your emergency funds and sinking funds. Y'all are gonna be okay financially. It's, but don't make a decision right this second in that smoke, in that haze of grief on something 3 or 4 or 5 months away from now.

Sure.

Does that make sense? What's his prospects look like for getting another job?

I mean, he started looking, you know, the day that it happened. He does have an interview this week already. He was laid off about 5 or 6 years ago, and it did take about 7 months for him to find something.

And so, okay, what was that like? What was that like? Forget the money part of it. What was it like in your home with a guy who's been searching for 7 months? Months.

Yeah. Not fun.

Okay. Uh, it's exactly right. I recommend to any of my buddies who get laid off to go get a something job.

Yeah.

Go do something and be hustling all the time to get interviews and all that kind of stuff. And a something job will let you go, right? I'm not talking about something that's gonna cage you up from 8 to 5. I'm talking about just go get a job, something you have to get up, you have to shave, you have to shower, you have to get up and go move, say hi to people. And it just helps you walk a little, $1,000. And when you have those interviews, you're a different version of yourself because you're productive, you're contributing to your house, you're doing a thing. You get what I'm saying? So even if, even if you said, I need you to go make $2,000 a month and, and we're going to keep our life exactly the way it is right now.

Yeah.

Like, there's a psychological benefit to him and inside of his own skin, inside of his own house, inside of his own marriage that's going to be way more important than that $2,000 he brings home, right?

Because then you know, hey, no matter what, I've I've got this, what, $86,000 bank, you know, in the bank. I've still got savings. We're still keeping our normal lifestyle going. I'm just looking for a job. There's not, yes, he's going to feel pressure, but there's not the same financial pressure riding on it every single day. And that, that does show up in interviews and that does show up in how you, you know, show up to these opportunities.

And let me tell you this, y'all have kids?

We have one. Yeah.

Okay. How old?

12.

12.

Perfect. I have a vivid, vivid memory of an older man at my church who got laid off from his corporate exec job. The following week, he became the church's janitor, and he did that for a year. He was there on Wednesday nights until late. He was there on Saturdays cleaning up the building. I'm gonna go do something and then he got paid pittance. But in that year, he began to ask himself what's important, what's the math on this, what's the emotion, that, that just heartbreak of getting laid off. And he went and got a teaching certificate and became a teacher. And I remember seeing him at a, at the, at the fair to go get a teaching job, and he changed his whole life. But that, as a young person, that was instilled in me as, oh, that's what men do when you get laid off. You go do the next job, and then you might have a chance to change your career. So this is going to be a blessing for your 12-year-old to watch too.

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The truth is, guys, we wish we could get to every call and question here on the Ramsey Show, but that's just not possible. So if you do have a money question and want an answer for your situation, go ahead and head on over to our website and use the Ask Ramsey tool. Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that's built and trained on proven Ramsey principles. So that means you'll get an answer the same way that we'd answer it right here on the show. So ask your question today at RamseySolutions.com or just click the link in the description if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. All righty. Sarah's in New York, New York. What's up, Sarah?

Hi, thanks for so much. Thank you for taking my call. I have a job offer on the table that I have not accepted because there's a caveat for buying a car. So I currently make $85,000. When I started, we were in a commission-based where we got just under $35,000 when we were hitting plan. The new position is a $140,000 base, and they're guaranteeing the salary for a year. So the first year is going to be $170,000. Both my cars are paid off, um, but neither of my cars qualify. They want a 2023 or newer, and they're giving $750 a month for the car. But I, I don't, I don't have enough to buy something that's not new.

What is—

I'm in Baby Step 2.

Is it a— are they asking you to buy a new car because as for— they've done some sort of matrix algorithm for reliability, or is this vanity?

It's a sales job.

It's a sales job.

So, um, I would need to put customers in my car. They are not offering a fleet car, um, so I would need to bring physicians with me places.

Ah, okay, so they want you to be fancy.

My 2014 is not going to be cutting it.

How, how long will they pay you $750 a month?

That is, and that is the entire time you work there. Everybody gets that amount whether your car is paid off or not. And, um, it also, you know, covers maintenance and insurance and whatnot. So I did some math. I can get a payment for under $300 a month. So obviously it's below, but it's still taking out debt.

Yeah, the risk is on you. Well, I just, I have a very— I remember the heartbreaking conversation between a buddy who took an executive job that came with a car, that came with all the stuff, and when things got tight at the company, the first thing that went was car stipends.

That is my worry.

It, I mean, I, I, I have, I remember that conversation cuz I was like, oh dude, you should probably not work there anymore. Not because of, but just if they're gonna tell you, here's what we're gonna pay you. And suddenly they start taking off dollars and cents and then say, no, no, no, that was a perk. Um, that, that's not a place I trust.

So anyway, so let's, um, let's think through this for a second. So is it just you or is your husband too, or?

My husband as well, but we, we have two young kids, so he's mostly home. Um, he's bringing in maybe $700 on the side. It's not a ton. Um, both our kids are too young for preschool, so then we saved on daycare.

Tell me about your current vehicles. What do you have right now?

Um, 2014 Chevy Malibu, 2017 Hyundai Sonata.

2017.

Okay.

And two small cars, nothing crazy. Uh-huh.

And are they paid off, or you're still working to pay Fully paid off.

Neither of them are worth more than a couple grand. They both have high mileage.

Okay. So what I'd be looking for, what I'd be thinking about— when does this job start, by the way? When do you have to— what's the timeline here?

I have to accept by Friday.

Oh lordy.

Well, yes, yes, yes. And it doesn't start until October. So I do have a little bit of time and we do have a sinking fund for a car. It's about $3,000, just under $3,000 right now.

Okay.

So I could potentially get get something. I just don't know if—

yeah, here's what I'd be— here's what I'd be noodling around with my husband to see if we want to do this. I'd be looking, uh, you said it's got to be a 2023. Was there a mileage thing on it, or just needed to be a 2023?

No mileage requirements. Okay, they have a, like, a mid— like a small to mid-sized SUV. They want to be able to fit enough customers in the car, so it's like, like they want like 4 seats minimum.

4 seats minimum.

That, you know, yeah.

Okay. So I'd be scouring the interwebs for what that is and it can have high mileage and you can get it at a deal. And over time, if you wanted to, and this is if you want to do this deal, uh, then at that point you're paying cash for something and they're paying you a stipend, $750 a month. You're not going into a car note. I in no way would go into debt or a car note to do this because they are a, I don't know who this company is, but I guarantee you they have millions and millions and millions and millions of $100,000. And for some strange reason, they're putting $30,000 of risk on you. And that's just not okay with me. That bothers me. Because I'm like, you've got the money. Why are you putting the risk on little old me? Right? So I certainly would not go into debt over this. But if you're thinking, hey, we can cash flow this and for me to make $170,000 a year instead of $85,000 is a good deal and everything else looks good. That would be my only caveat is let me go on on AutoTrader or wherever I can find and let me find something from 2023 that fits the seating requirements.

That's got a ton of miles on it that I can drive for a little while. That's not costing me an arm and a leg because they're out there. And let me see, price that out and see, okay, I've already got $3,000. Can I find anything for $8,000 or $10,000?

Or between now and October, can we—

between now and October.

I'm even okay if y'all are on Baby Step 2, if y'all want to pause and stack cash.

And yeah, we— I mean, we, we've pretty much paid off every— we have like $5,000 left on credit cards. We have a good chunk that we've been dropping.

I'm okay if y'all want to pause and just say, okay, from now, from August until October, can we put aside several grand a month? Can we get there? And I, I like Jay's— like, finding a nice used Toyota, used Lexus, like with real high miles on it, you can get a, a deal.

Yeah, I'm looking, I've seen a couple of things on here that, that might be possible.

And have a plan that in one year that car rolls over to your husband who's driving the kids around and you'll have saved up enough to buy yourself another nice car.

Okay, I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Yeah, there's a really cool, go on kbb.com and you can find the, the 10 best used SUVs under $10,000. And I think that's a really great place to start and just to get some answers, uh, on what you need.

But I want to— Jade, what you said is super important. Somebody, some actuary in a back room made the case, you know what, let's make them hold the note. Let's make them hold the depreciating asset.

Mm-hmm.

It's better for us to make them go buy their own tools and we'll just, we'll give them this much dollar amount because we don't want to deal with it.

Yeah.

And anytime somebody says that, fine, they get to do that. But what they're saying is you deal deal with it.

And you got to look out for you because they're looking out for their best interests. So you get to look out for your best interest. And in this case, certainly not taking on the debt. My goodness gracious.

I do believe if you took October as the start date and two people, you and your husband, got in a room and just decided what must be true for us to come up with this dollar amount by here, y'all can figure that out. Yeah, yeah. Whether that's we gotta call Aunt May to come over and watch the kids because I'm gonna up my work hours, he's gonna work up his hours, we're gonna just go bananas between now and We're gonna go Baby Step 2 lightning speed. I don't know, I'm just making something up, but like take debt off the table. 'Cause I think everybody on the planet would say that's a good deal.

Yeah.

It's not that big of a deal. Plus I'm gonna get a stipend. I'm not gonna think about it. But man, I cannot get that experience out of my head.

No, I think, I think what you're saying is right. And I do think that sometimes when folks are on Baby Step 2, they get tunnel vision on being on Baby Step 2 and I can't do anything else but pay off debt. But the truth is, truth is, if you're going through a job switch, that is a bit of a storm mode situation where we would say, hey, this is a major life changer. You're relocating, you're changing your job. That is a time that we would tell you to pause the Baby Steps anyway to get your life, you know what I'm saying? And so this makes sense. There are times, let me pull up another example. Obviously when we talk about paying off debt, we're like, do the debt snowball method, right? List them smallest to largest. But we also say, hey, if you can get out of your car, and if you can sell your vehicle today, that might not be the smallest debt, but if you can sell it to, to get right side up, right? So there's times where you need to look at it more critically, more nuance, creatively, and, and go, okay, what is it that I'm actually trying to do here?

I'm trying to pay off debt. It is a good deal for her to take a job for $170,000 when she's currently making $85,000.

Correct.

So if that means we have to pause for a second in order to get the datgum job, that makes makes sense. So that's just, I don't know, sometimes I feel like we can get a little, uh, forest for the trees. What's that?

What's that analogy? Yeah, we start staring at the trees when there's a forest.

Yeah, yeah. So there's nothing, you're not doing the wrong thing by pausing the Baby Steps temporarily so that you can get this car so that you can get the job.

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. Let's go straight to Sharon, who's in Jacksonville, Florida. Hi Sharon, you're on the line.

Hi. Hi. Um, I have a really interesting question. I am going through a divorce after a long time, 26 years, and I'll be walking away with, um, having to pay the equity that's in our home, uh, of $375,000.

Wow.

And so I haven't been in— had any major debt in a long time. So I'm trying to figure out if I have a balance on a current mortgage at $90,000 and it has a 1.625% interest rate.

Oh my gosh, what's it worth?

It's worth, uh, $950,000.

Oh, okay.

Um, but the new— so I was thinking about doing a cash-out refi, but the new interest rates are 6.275%.

Yeah, yeah, it's the world you find yourself in. What is it about this house that you want to hang on to?

Um, I mean, I've been living in here for 15 years, and I know I don't think I would want to rent.

Sure.

So it would—

well, you wouldn't have to rent.

Yeah, if you sold it for $900,000, you pay off your $90,000, and you're down to just— I'm just gonna do easy math— you're down to $800,000. You paid the $375,000, and now you've got, after realtor fees, you've got $400 grand in cash to go do whatever you want, right?

But then if I go buy another house, then I'm gonna have to buy it at these new market rates.

Yeah, or you go write a check for the fanciest condo in the block and you don't have yard maintenance or house maintenance or anything like that.

Uh, and I want to hold— I want to halt real quick before we go forward because I think that this is going to be really important to have this mindset going through this conversation. Things are going to change.

Yeah.

You're divorced now. That's a huge change. So having a changed interest rate is probably one of the smaller changes that you're going to experience, right? So I want you to approach the conversation knowing that there's a lot that's going to change. Interest rates is kind of par for the course on this.

Or here's another way to say it.

Does that make sense?

Everything in your old life is over. And so, and that's hard to metabolize, especially if you didn't ask for this divorce, if you didn't want it and it's been thrown on you, or if you did ask for it and you just wanted to keep your regular life, just minus your marriage. Everything is different now. And I see a lot of folks wanna hang onto their house because it's where they've lived forever. It's where the kids are. It's, I, I wanna try to keep a semblance of my old life while also dealing with this huge schism. And I guess what I wanted to tell you, Jay's trying to tell you, the life you had is over. And if part of your new life includes this house, great, we'll help you get there. But it is gonna come at a significant cost. Things are gonna be different. How do you, uh, what, what is your take-home income for the, for a year?

Yeah. Uh, about $200,000.

Okay. Excellent.

After taxes. Yeah. Excellent.

So you're doing great financially.

Yeah, I can afford it. I just, I haven't had debt in so long.

Well, major debt.

The only debt I really have is $30,000 remaining on a vehicle loan. I know how y'all love vehicle loans, but I have $30,000 left. I got $550,000 in TSP, $100,000 in a Roth IRA, $96,000 in an annuity, and about $50,000 cash. Yes.

Wow.

Great, great job.

Yeah, you're doing great.

I really think that, I think what John said is really true and take some moments to think about that. If you end up keeping this house, you do the cash-out refi, you refinance at, you know, current rates, 15-year fixed rate. Yeah, you're going to have a higher interest rate, but you're going to get to keep your house. So there's the trade-off, right? You're deciding this is worth doing that action, right? So you do that trade-off or your other option is, you know what? Yeah, fresh start sounds good. I'm going to take my cash, my $375,000, my $400,000, Maybe I'll see if I can find something in cash that fits my needs. Maybe I will rent for a season, save up a little bit with it, and then do something in cash. Or maybe I'll use it as a down payment on what I want, right? Those are the options. All of them are a trade-off in some form or fashion, and your choice gets to be, gets to truly be, which one do I want? And I think that if you can frame it like, I get to choose, that's kind of cool. It's not being forced on me.

Uh, I think that's a good mindset to try to approach this.

I've been married 24 years, and I'm trying to put myself in your seat. I think the last thing I would want to do is walk back into that house, but that's just me. I know everybody's different, but I would want a completely clean slate if this was happening this way.

How long do you have? Yeah, how long do you have before he needs to get the $375,000— $375,000 payout?

Uh, September 1st. So I did start the process of a cash-out refi. Of course, I'm not necessarily bound to it, but, um, man, it's just—

do you want—

do you want to have a lot of change?

What basically be a $450,000 mortgage at 6.25%?

Yeah, I know. That's the thing, psychologically, just knowing that, you know, we're already down to $90,000 and completely pay it off and have the lowest interest rate ever. And now paying 5 times.

I mean, that's a grief. That is something 100%. Yeah. Sharon, to grieve, cuz that, that's tough to, that's tough to internalize. Just hearing you say it, that is something that you guys probably fought together to get to, to build that level of wealth. And then it feels like it's kind of ripped out from under you. That, I mean, hearing you say it makes me sad for You.

Yeah. But, but if a, if a thing you found yourself wanting or heading towards, and it, this was a light at the end of the tunnel, was freedom, this financial freedom versus a $900,000 house, right? Then if you want to pursue freedom, then take, sell the house, take the $375,000 plus the, some cash you have in reserves and take out a $100,000 mortgage, buy a $500,000 house and have it paid off in a year. Or two, right? And it's gonna be a different house and it's not gonna be as big, but you can get a, a smaller house that's still got all the amenities on the inside for half a million dollars. And you're taking out a much smaller loan than 4.5, you know what I mean? You're 90 plus this 375, um, at, at a high interest rate. It, it just depends on what kind of life you want moving forward.

Yeah.

Sharon, how old are you?

54.

54. Um, here's what I would do. Uh, we're talking a lot of concepts and ideas. What I would do tonight is I would go and I would look in, in, in my area and I'd say, okay, what's it cost for, for my needs as they are today? What, what do I need? What is it that I want? Write that down on paper. What do I want in, in a home? And then start looking and seeing what does that cost. And then it's now let's start putting some closer numbers to the math. Okay, if I sell this, if I get what I want for the house, after I give them the cash out, after closing, after fees, what realistically would I take home? And put some real numbers around that. And then think, okay, this annuity, I could probably take some of that money, take some of that $96,000 and add it to my down payment. It's not a wonderful investment anyway, so it'd be better invested in a piece of real estate. And so you've You've got options here. I think if you put a little bit more due diligence to the actual numbers, I think you're going to come out with what John was saying, which is how to get to that same place of peace, financial peace, financial freedom that you were, you had before.

It's just going to look a little different.

And while you're doing that math, ask yourself, like, look at a blank sheet of paper and ask yourself, what kind of life do I want to have?

Now.

Probably the most common conversation I have with folks who are going through divorce or just on the other side of divorce is parsing through, like I said earlier, like I'm trying to hang on to the old life I had, drive the same cars, live in the same neighborhood. And there's something powerful about exhaling and just getting real, real sad that life is over. And now I'm in the driver's seat of what comes next. What kind of life do I actually wanna have? And that's when you ask yourself the things about yard maintenance and you may love mowing the lawn. You may love doing flowers. And so that's gonna be cool. You may say, you know what, I've hated doing the lawn. And in this new life at 54, I'm basically Ctrl+Alt+Delete. Um, I don't want that. I wanna do something else. And so it, but it gives you space when you realize, oh, I'm trying to hang onto little shards of my old life and just saying, uh-uh. And in that process, if you say, here's the life I wanna create now at 54 by myself, I gotta kill or come. I got lots of resources and margin.

I've worked my butt off over the last 25 years to give myself this margin. And you say, no, I want this house. I love this house. I want my grandkids to come grow up in this house. Then awesome. That's gonna come at a cost. All like Jade, Jade, what you said is perfect. All these decisions come with trades and instead of making the trades from a place of weakness, make them from a place of this is the life I want to have. And then I'm gonna make trades in that direction.

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All right, my friends, the truth is we want to hear from you guys, uh, so go ahead and jump in the comments. If you watch the show on YouTube or on Spotify, jump in the con— uh, in the comments and let us know what you're thinking about. What connected you to the show? What connected to you about today's show? Why can't I talk today, John? What connected with you about today's show? That's what I'm trying to say.

I'm a good looking guy and it has that effect on people.

What?

Never mind. She's like, ain't that good looking.

What are you saying?

No, I know what you're talking about. Okay. Yeah. Get in the comments. We want to hear, but don't be mean. I see what some of y'all are writing in these comments. I'm not going to name any names, but I know who the trolls are. Just letting you know. Okay, let's go to Caleb, who's in St. Louis, Missouri. What's up, Caleb?

Hey, good morning or afternoon, guys. Um, just pleasure to be on the show. I'll get right to my point. Um, I make $95,000 a year. I'm working 13, 14, 15, sometimes hours a day to try and get my family out of $60,000 of debt. That's credit cards and just poor management on my part. And, um, my wife and I have— are about to expect our 6th child, and we're, uh, want to have 7 total.

Holy smokes! Wow.

Yeah. Okay, backstory, uh, 10 years ago, my— I was single, and, uh, a guy who I knew from my church called me and said, hey, I got this daughter, I think you guys would hit it off, and I want you guys to marry and have a bunch of kids. And 10 years later, here we are. So, uh, my question for you guys is, I'm trying to knock out my debt so I can start building my wealth. And my question is, can I and my wife, by the time we're retired— I'm 40, she's 32— be millionaires following your principles? I want to knock it out of the park like Albert Pujols hit one off of Brad Lidge. John will know what I'm talking about.

Why you gotta bring that up?

Why you gotta bring that up?

Why, why do I have to talk about that? Oh, because you're from St. Louis.

I'm from St. Louis, man. Come on. I hope that felt good.

I remember that home run, and that ball hasn't landed ended yet. He hit that ball so far.

Golly.

It's okay to admit. Did you cry that day? Did that happen?

All right, let's get to No, You Can't Be a Millionaire. You've ruined it. Conversation over. I'm just kidding. I'm totally kidding.

Okay, so let's run it back a little bit. So just to make sure I heard you right, $95,000 a year is what you're making. Obviously your wife is home with these beautiful babies and you've got $60,000 in debt. Have you done the calculation? When are you going to be debt-free based on today's numbers?

So I was—

yeah.

Uh-oh. First of this year. Oh, I'm sorry, can you hear me, guys? Yep.

First of this year?

Yeah, the first year I was at $60K. I'm down now to $25,000 in debt. I'm hoping to knock it out by Christmas.

Oh, you're already down to $25,000? Okay, so Christmas Day. Wow, Christmas Day you're done. I love that for you. Um, and then how long do you think it'll take you to save up $3 months. How much is 3 to 6 months for you? Oh, yeah, get somewhere where we can hear you clearly.

There you go, now you're back.

Okay, sorry guys, I'm not moving.

Um, that's all right.

Yeah, I'm— I would say it's probably going to take after Christmas probably about 3 to 4 months to get my 6 months of income saved.

Okay, good. And so then from there on, I mean, you know how this goes, we start Baby Step 4, which is you investing 15% of your gross income. Do you guys have any money in retirement at this point?

No.

What was it?

No, no, no, we do not.

Okay, so let's pretend that at, uh, let's see, that would put you at 41.

Yes.

So let's pretend at age 41, uh, you start investing and you invest 15%, so around $1,100. I calculated, uh, $1,187 a month. And let's give that 20 years to grow. So if you were to do that with nothing currently saved, you'd have a million bucks in 20 years if you have it invested well the way that we teach. Okay, so that answers your question. Uh, but there's also part of this, uh, we believe that a big part of building wealth also is in your personal residence. Are you guys buyers or renters, or how do you live right now?

We have paid off home.

You have a paid-off home?

Yes.

How'd that work out?

Moly.

Um, my, my, uh, my father-in-law generously gave us a house at wedding.

So he was like, I'm— wow, that's crazy. So it's—

y'all, you and your wife could sell that house today and all proceeds would go to you?

That's correct, yes.

How much is this house worth?

Uh, we had it appraised, uh, it's between $650,000 and $650,000.

Okay.

Yes.

So that's, that's the answer to your question, Caleb. You can be millionaires if you keep doing what you're doing now. You're walking the baby steps. If you keep doing this and then you start investing the way teach you, the way we teach, you will have over $1 million plus your personal residence. It's going to be over $1 million. And again, that's if nothing changes. That's at the bare minimum. The truth is you're going to go through life, you're going to earn more money at some point. Some of these kids are going to get out of the house. Maybe your wife will pick up some work. This is the worst possible scenario is you make, you know, you earn $1 million at this income. So, you know, it's going to be above and beyond that.

It's awesome.

And because Caleb, you started this fight, I'm going to finish it. Currently, the Astros are in first place and the Cardinals are in third place in their respective divisions. So just need to say that out loud.

Is this the baseball?

This is baseball.

Okay. I love it. Somebody knows what we're talking about. It's not me.

Call me. Call me talking about that Brad Lynch home run.

All right. Let's go to James in Atlanta, Georgia, which is— I do know this— home of the Atlanta Braves. All right, James, you're on the line. Help us out, buddy.

Hey there.

How are you guys doing?

Good.

How can we help?

So my wife is going to be going to dental school in the summer of 2028. We start the application process in June of 2027. Uh, we're currently on a get out of debt journey. We started this year. I've been listening to you guys since heavily since March and we paid off about $18,000 of our $80,000 in debt.

Love that.

And, um, we want to know if we can go to dental school without taking out student loans?

So the answer is maybe, but I want to frame your question up. Okay, I want to reframe it. The way you, the way you stated this is, this is happening in this particular time frame, and I want you to think about not— because that's going to get you in trouble, because that's— then it has to happen. So the cheapest public in-state tuition is, um, managed manageable. And especially if you have a year or 2-year runway. But if you say we're going to dental school, she's going to dental school in this time, that's when people end up in for-profit schools. They end up in the most expensive private schools, cuz that's all they got into or whatever. So it's first saying, if we can afford it, we're gonna go in this, in this timeframe. And that sets a fire underneath you. And yes, depending on what schools you go to, there are public schools. And I mean, the, they vacillate so greatly in cost. Best, but I'd be looking for what's the, the most reasonably priced, uh, public school that we can get into, especially in-state. If you have to start going paying out-of-state tuition, man, they'll kill you on that.

If you go to fancy private schools, that can get you underwater real quick. And if you start going into the for-profit schools, man, that can be a nightmare.

So the only in-state school currently is in Augusta, Georgia, and it's $109,000 for approximately for 4 years. Okay. And then in surrounding states, it ranges $250,000 to $350,000.

It's $109,000 for 4 years. It's $109,000 every year, or that's the total?

$109,000 for the 4 years. Okay. The in-state tuition there is $27,000, but if you guys have, uh, from the research I've done, it can, it can be pretty hard to get into dental school, and most people apply to many and get accepted into few.

And that's, that's the challenge you're gonna run up against. And y'all just have to decide now, what are principles? Are. $25,000, $27,000 a year is, I think, a great deal for dental school.

I think so too.

But that means you're gonna have to live like freshmen in college and you're gonna cash flow this thing and we're not gonna look at it as $109,000 over 4 years. We're gonna look at it as $27,000 a year. And what can we, what can we cut? What can we add? You're gonna work other jobs. Y'all are gonna save up money between now and then. Like all that's very, very doable, and I wouldn't blink twice about somebody spending $27K on dental school. That's great, man. But if you don't have it, you don't have it. And I do get your— but you're, you're, you described the exact trap I've just sat with students in all sorts of medical helping professions over the years. They're so desperate to get in that they end up getting in a place that they just simply can't afford.

Yeah, that's a really good point. I think the two caveats here is I would make sure the debt is paid off first.

Yes.

Because that's the only way you're going to have the margin to be able to really save up the $2,200 or whatever it is every month to pay for this. And the other thing is, yeah, what is your job? What are you doing? Because while she's in school, she ain't working.

Right.

So that means you're going to have to bring in enough money to float the boat and pay for tuition, which I think you can do. You just have to be very intentional. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show here in the Fairwinds Credit Union. Union Studio, continuing to take calls about your life and money. 888-825-5225 is the number to call if you want to get on the show, in case you were ever wondering. Uh, we have Gabriel in Columbia, South Carolina on the line next. Hey Gabriel!

Hey, how are you guys doing?

Good, how can we help?

So a few months ago in April, my wife committed an act of financial infidelity against me. I knocked over a bag and spilled out a couple papers for credit cards. And we had agreed no credit cards like 3 years earlier. Um, and I, you know, asked her some questions and found out that she had taken one of those mail credit card offers and taken out $7,000, uh, used it for an amount of $7,000. Um, I, I'm— we've moved past it.

No, you haven't.

You're here.

Yeah, you, you haven't. You're still here.

In some sense we did, in some sense we— I haven't.

There you go.

You paid off the money, but emotionally you haven't moved past it.

What was it?

What, what did she spend it on?

So I'll give a little context quickly, but we went through a period where we were all sick. We have two kids, a 1-year-old, a 3-year-old. She's a stay-at-home mom. And when the, when we all get sick like that, she just really feels a lack of family we have in the area and a lack of help. And, and she's, she really wanted to like make money to afford to like pay for help. So she signed up for this like get rich quick TikTok millionaire course where they say, oh, if you don't make $15,000 by the end of the course, we'll refund you the whole cost of the course or something. And, you know, that was what she said to kind of justify it. Like, oh, you know, I would, I would have been able to pay the money back no matter what. I, of course, thought it was a scam. I didn't trust it. So I just, as soon as I found out, I had her cancel it.

Sure.

But I was, I was also like, well, you know, obviously you can't do that. You can't go behind my back and do that. And it's not like I don't provide for you. I mean, we could have had a conversation about that. And we, we talked about it and, you know, she, I guess, didn't feel heard sometimes. So that's the stuff we've worked through more. We have better communication now, but, you know, for even more context, like when we first got married, I had no debt. And I found out a month before we got married, she had $10,000 in credit card debt. I just paid it off of my savings at the time. And she also had student loans and, and we're almost done paying those off, but I do harbor resentment because I was like, I, I just feel like she's brought so much of this negative financial weight into our marriage. And it was one thing when it's like, okay, first year of marriage, she agreed no more credit cards, but then things got a little tough and she, you know, went behind my back and took these.

Why didn't— why do you think she— because it's trust on both sides, right? Um, one is just a little— like, hers is more deceitful in that way. But why, why do you think— and if— I don't know if you've asked her this, but why didn't she trust you tell her, you know, before you got married that she had $10,000 in debt? Why, why didn't she trust you to say, hey, I heard, I saw, you know, cause I'm just thinking about conversations in marriage and it's like, hey, I saw this thing on TikTok. I think we should try it. They guarantee $15,000, right? Why does she not trust to have those just kind of candid conversations? What do you think's going on there? Um, cause there's trust on both ends that's lacking.

To, to be honest with you, uh, she didn't have a great relationship with her, her mom. And I think she grew up lying a lot or hiding things to— as like a survival mechanism.

Okay.

And, and we've kind of been working on that where I'm like, you know, I'm not your mom. Like, you actually have to communicate clearly to me and tell me the truth about how you're feeling or, or what you're thinking and what you want to do. You can't just tell me things are fine and they're not.

But let me interrupt here. You're exactly right. And in the end, you have to be a partner who can hear her feelings and not say, well, that's not a big deal, look what I did last time, right? Because that puts you in a position of— if you're not a— I, I don't use this word flippantly— if you're not a safe place for her to unload and just sit down and say, here's what I'm feeling, or you try to immediately go fix it instead of just sitting with her, then it— her, her nervous system is going to just go on automatic replay of childhood. Now I'm not saying anything she does is right. Don't hear me say that. Do what?

Yeah, she shuts down. Is that like— it's right. If I, if I get, if I get too— if I get angry or something, she just like stops talking, or she'll just say whatever will make me happy.

But I know it's like, right, so we'll get to the, we'll get to the, the what do you do next. But I want you to hear what Jade said. Often these trust issues are because neither of you trust each other. And you learning to say things like, thank you for telling me that, and that's it. Even if you think the thing that she says is a big deal isn't a big deal, say thanks for sharing that with me. Or here's a magic phrase: tell me more about that. Instead of, I don't care about that, we're not doing that, tell me more about that. What is it about a TikTok thing? Like, tell me about that. And then you can, after she tells you about it, you can laugh and say, that doesn't make any sense at all to me. I, I don't feel good about that, but that's different than that's stupid, we ain't doing that. You get what I'm saying? It, it's, it's an ethos in your home that you're both welcome at the table, right? So when it comes to rebuilding any sort of trust, the path forward is you have to give her a roadmap and say, here is how we can re— like, we're gonna practice trust again.

And like, I wanna pull our credit reports. Hopefully you've already done that. If you haven't seen this, the— you have done that?

Yeah, we did. And okay, we're on the baby steps together. I'm like a Dave Ramsey addict now. Okay, working through that.

You know what, we hear this all the time, some zealous husband dragging their wife through this some program. And it might be that she feels about Dave Ramsey as you feel about a TikTok plan, right? And it's sitting down and saying, here's the kind of world we want create. And my ch— the challenge you're going to run into trying to reestablish trust is, bro, you are a scorekeeper, and you've kept a record of every right and wrong in your marriage. And you're bringing up stuff from before you got married and conversations. Address the elephant in the room, which is, I have a wife who doesn't always tell me the truth. For whatever reason, I have a wife who doesn't always tell me the truth. And then she knew this was a big core value of ours— of mine. She agreed to to it, and she went behind my back, and that shattered this trust. Or really probably didn't shatter it, probably just brought to the surface trust issues y'all had. You got to make a path for her because you're not going to feel a certain way. And if, if you try to say like, or constantly looking for, I want to feel like I trust her, man, that's— that, that finish line is going to move every time.

Say this week, if— and you get to make up the path, and then she as a grown woman gets to decide if I want to walk I wanna see your phone. I wanna see our joint checking account. I want us to have the EveryDollar app so we can both see every transaction. I wanna freeze on both of our credit reports. So we have to, and the other person gets to keep the code. So if somebody wants to open up a credit card, then they have to go through each other. I wanna close the Amazon account. You get to decide what that path is. And my hope is that you're not punitive with it, but this is a way that you are gonna be able to exhale when you start to get nervous. Again. And she is gonna say, I'm all in on this marriage. I, I had a lapse in judgment. I screwed up. And I'm, I'm full, full, full tilt forward with you. Does that make sense? And then you've got to decide, brother, I'm not going to drag up every time we get in a fight, every time she does something, every time I get mad, I'm going to bring up stuff from 5 years ago, 10 years ago.

Man, don't, don't be that guy. Don't be that guy. Deal with the problem in front of you. And I think that from what it sounds like, the real issue in your home is you have a wife that you don't trust and y'all have to get to the root of that. Y'all gotta be able to tell each other the truth.

Hey, George Campbell here. So you're thinking about buying or selling your home. It's exciting, but there's a lot to think about, and all those decisions can feel overwhelming. Well, here's the good news: you don't have to tackle the process alone. Ramsey's Real Estate Home Base is the place to find all of your free tools and resources for help to get prepared to buy or sell your your home with confidence. You'll find calculators, start-to-finish guides, a podcast, and even an in-depth video course hosted by yours truly. What's not to love? So if you're ready to take the next steps toward your home goals, go to ramseysolutions.com/real-estate. That's ramseysolutions.com/real-estate.

So guys, if you're working the Baby Steps, just know the best and fastest way to do that is by using EveryDollar, my favorite budgeting app. And the truth is, it's more than just a budgeting app. Right now, it's a plan that's built right in. You hear us talk about the Ramsey Plan all the time, and EveryDollar is built on that Ramsey Plan. So we're not just telling you how to budget. We have an opinion on how you should manage your finances and the best ways to build wealth and how to find margin margin, and EveryDollar is going to hip you to that game. Okay, you can track your progress, plus you get personalized recommendations and coaching for your situation that will help you free up more money and work the plan faster than ever. Trust me, it's like having one of us walking with you every day in your pocket, showing you the next right step and holding you accountable. Start EveryDollar for free today by downloading it in the App Store or on Google Play. All right, Kristen is in Columbus, Ohio. Hey, Kristen.

Hi, thanks for taking my call, guys.

Fo sho. How can we help?

Um, so me and my fiancé just started Step 2 within the last month. We have a total of around $225,000 of consumer debt before a mortgage, and I had actually just got a new car like a month before. And then once I started the program, I'm like, that was a bad idea. So my question is, I have my vehicle Yeah. My vehicle, I owe about $29,700. My fiancé actually has a lease, and he has a year left. And we also have his motorcycle that he owes about $13,500 on. And I think it's only worth about $9,500. So we have negative on all of them. We obviously have negative on mine since it's brand new. And his has about $7,000 or $8,000 in negative since it's a lease, and we've only had it 2 years. So my question is, how would we go about, um, telling them to get used ones with the negatives? And like, how would we go about that?

Without— can I— I'm gonna come out swinging here, but I'm gonna tell you what I would tell my older sister if she was asking me the same question. I would tell you what I would tell my closest friends in the world, okay? And I only say this because I would not have a job if everyone's plans always worked out. So please don't refer to y'all's debt and our— what we owe— until you are legally married and you have a process, a legal process, for unwinding it. The number of times I've heard dating couples or cohabitating couples or even engaged couples start paying each other's debts off and then they break up. And I know you're like, no, that would never be us. I'm just telling you over and over untangling that nightmare or people saying, I paid off $20 grand of her whatever, and then she broke up with me. And there's no recourse for that. You get what I'm saying? And so what I would challenge you on is y'all run this plan. Y'all are engaged. Hopefully y'all gotta get married soon, but y'all run this program in parallel dealing with e— your own, what you make, what your life costs, what you owe, and handle it that way.

And then the day he puts a ring on your finger and you want on his, now there's a legal— there's a way to legally separate this without it being a nightmare. You get— it'll be a nightmare still, but you get what I'm saying?

Uh, yeah, I get what you're saying, but we've, we've had our finances combined for a while now.

I know, but that's not great. That puts you in a very vulnerable position. Okay, so how much money do you make every year?

Uh, well, just me or combined? With us combined?

Just tell me about you first.

Uh, just me, about $55,000.

$55,000. And if, if you had to take all of the debts that you have, what would they be?

Oh, I'd have to add them all up.

Well, we know his lease wouldn't be part of it and his motorcycle wouldn't be part of it, so you'd have the $29,000 on our house together too. A what?

An equity— we have an equity loan on our house.

Oh boy. Who's— whose name is the house in?

Um, it's in his, but I'm on the deed.

But the mortgage is in his name?

Yes.

Okay, then that— it's, it's his debt.

You're so— you're in such a vulnerable position, Kristen. Um, oh man.

Um, so let's, let's, let's keep it— let's keep it 100 right here. So the truth The truth is all the debt's really in his name except for the $29,000, uh, car, which is yours. That's the truth. Those are the facts.

I have some student loans and a few credit cards.

Okay, tell me about your student loan. Okay, tell me your student loans, your credit card, and your 401k loan amount.

Um, my student loans, I have about $28,000.

Okay.

My 401k loan, I have about $3,300.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, and then, um, I credit card, a couple small credit cards I still need to pay off.

What are those?

$300, uh, $375 for one, $900 for another, and then $2,200 on another one.

Okay, so let's, for the purpose of this exercise, because I mean, if we were sitting right now at coffee talking face to face, I'd tell you the exact same thing. You do not need to put a dime of your money towards this person's debt. You need to focus on paying off your debt because that is the, the financially fair thing to do, and legally it's the thing that serves you best in this situation. Okay, so you make $55,000 a year. Good on you. Let's list these debts from smallest to largest. That's what I do. I would start with the smallest one for $375. I'd make minimum payments on everything, but I'd throw all of your extra income towards that smallest debt. Doing that is called the debt snowball. That's how I paid off, you know, $460,000 with my husband. It definitely works.

Mm-hmm.

The problem that I see, the problem that I see you running into is you guys probably have some sort of split where, you know, I, you know, I don't know what it is. I'm guessing you, you pay part of the mortgage, which makes sense cuz you live there. But is there something else aside from housing expenses that you're giving him money for?

No, we just combine everything. We just combine our incomes, go in the same bank, and we just pay the bills.

How much does he make?

Um, about— we make, well, a total of $135,000, about $80,000.

Okay, he makes about $80,000. So the tough part is I want to help you as best as I can, but you called a show that really has a clear point of view on this, and our clear point of view is what John stated before. I'm not going to say I'll say it again, but that's the truth. And so I can't give you advice based off something I wouldn't do myself. I would be a, I would not be a congruent human being if I did that. So I have to tell you what I would do, which is I'd separate my money. And I'd say, we're not married. Our relationship isn't committed. Therefore, our money doesn't have to be committed. And it's no shade, but I have to protect myself to a certain degree. And I do it like that.

So how, how would I go about with my vehicle then? Like, would— with getting out of it and getting something cheaper?

Like, should I go the route of getting a personal loan? No.

What, um, I, I, I have an offer for like $2,500, so that puts me at $3,700 in negative.

Okay, yeah, I would do that. I would go down if you, if you can get a, uh, um, I don't know, do you have any cash saved?

Uh, no, no, just the emergency fund.

How quickly could you get $3, $7,700. Um, how quickly could you save it?

I'd say a couple months.

The offer might be gone by then. If you wanted to, you could go— yeah, what you could do, you could go to the credit union or you could get a loan, uh, for the difference. And then you're going to need something to drive, right? So maybe I'd get a loan for the $37,000 plus maybe another $5,000. So $8,700.

You're nicer. I was going to say $2,500.

Yeah, look for the— I mean, you're looking for a beater is the point that John is making. This is just something to get you from point A to B. It's temporary.

Okay.

So don't get hung up on the fact that you're driving a $3,000 car. It's just temporary. And then now you freed up your car note, right? So how much is your car note?

About $513 a month.

So you, you freed up the $513. Of course, you're going to have to pay a little bit for, for the loan that you got from the credit union or for whatever. But mostly you freed up most of that cash and that's going to go towards your debt snowball, paying off these credit cards as quickly as possible. Possible. Then next you'll move on to the 401 loan. Then next you'll move on to the student loans and do those smallest to largest as well. But the key is smallest to largest and you're going to work extra hours. You know, if you can pick up overtime in some way, if you can do a side hustle.

Yeah, I have been.

Perfect.

Awesome.

Most people do this in 18 months, right? That's the goal. 18 months or less. And they do that by getting very uncomfortable, doing things they've never done before, working jobs they've never worked before, selling things that they thought they loved, right?

All of these things are gonna sell that motorcycle and take out a loan for the difference for that $4,000.

Yeah, absolutely. And I would encourage him to do that. I, I would start working this plan and let him see all of the progress that you're making and him go, oh, that looks good, I want to do that too. And you have the ability to influence this person. You can't change a person, but you can influence them with your behavior, and I think you have a really good opportunity to do that.

Hey guys, George Campbell here. You ever feel like you make good money and still have nothing to show for it? You run into Target for one thing and somehow walk out $87 later with toothpaste and emotional support candles. Just me?

Okay.

Well, that's the problem. Most people don't pay attention to how they spend their money, so it does whatever it wants. And that's why we created EveryDollar. It's a budgeting app that helps you create a simple plan for your money. EveryDollar's simple, it's clear, and it helps track where your money's actually going. Plus you get daily lessons, to-dos, and reminders along the way. It's like having a money coach in your pocket. Your money's been freelancing long enough. It's time to give EveryDollar a full-time job. Go download EveryDollar for free on the App Store or Google Play.

Alrighty, it's time for our Ramsey Show Question of the Day, brought to you by Yrefi. Listen, when private student loan payments start getting away from you, whoo, you can feel like you're paying for decisions you made years ago. But Yrefi helps borrowers explore low fixed-rate refinancing options and payments designed around your current situation. Just visit yrefi.com/ramsey and remember, it may not be available in all states.

Today's question comes from Maria in Oklahoma. Oklahoma. Maria writes, my spouse and I are debt-free and have a fully funded emergency fund. We're saving for a down payment on our first home. We tithe to our local church, but the church often presents causes where they ask members to help meet the needs of others. It feels selfish not to participate in these requests when our family needs are easily met and our savings goal could be pushed out a few weeks or months to help make a true difference in someone else's life. How do we balance wanting to help and feeling guilt guilty when we choose not to participate?

Ooh.

Well, I mean, Jon, let me just say guilt and generosity, guilt and giving cannot go hand in hand. Let me phrase it like that. You're supposed to give out of a cheerful heart, and I don't think you can be cheerful and guilty at the same time.

Let me say this in a gross way. If you feel guilty and so you give, you're actually using the person who needs your help to make you feel better. And that makes you the parasite in that exchange, right?

'Cause it's like, I need this for me.

I need this to, I need to be okay.

Mm-hmm.

So I've gotta, yes, you're exactly right.

That's a good word. And then, I mean, yeah, you can go with the scripture, like you should be not giving under compulsion and the Lord loves a cheerful giver and all that kind of stuff. But the bigger part is how you feel about it. And you giving is not, I've heard Dave say this and I'll try to say it in my own words. Whether or not you gave to that one thing is not moving the needle on how God feels about you. You know what I'm saying? And I think that that's the biggest part of this because the guilt is, "Oh, I should— there's this expectation. I should have done this. And if I don't do this, then maybe it's that." And it's just like, "Hey, what if you just set aside an amount that you and your spouse agree on and say, 'Above and beyond our tithe, we have this line item on our budget, and we spend it when those needs arise.'" Dryze. And if there's not a need this, this month, we spend it on outrageous tipping. And if it's not tipping this month, then we buy backpacks for back to school.

And this is just a line item of extra giving that we plan for on our budget. We know that it's just enough that we can afford it, but it also gives us a little bit of tinge, right? Like you feel it a little bit. And this is what, this is what God has laid on our heart to do. And we feel great doing that. I think that that's the way giving is supposed to feel. It shouldn't feel like, "Oh, Pastor says something from across the stage. Okay, like, let's do it." Like, it shouldn't feel like that. And then if I don't do it because this was the month we were supposed to, I don't know, take that vacation, now I feel guilty the whole time I'm on the vacation. I just don't think that that's the intention of— I personally don't feel like that's the way it's supposed to feel. I feel like you should go, "I'm happy to help and I've planned to do so." And I do think that there's some spontaneity sometimes where it's like, "You know what? I wasn't planning on doing this, but this just hit, like, let's do it." I think those times come too, but guilt is not the ticket.

This is a deeper conversation probably for another time, but if you're tithing every month to your local church and every week they're circling back up and being like, "Hey, we don't have enough here. Yeah, get involved in the budget process. Oh, do we need new instruments for everybody? Do we need—

that's interesting.

Yeah, new, uh, I don't know, whatever.

That could be easier said— that could be easier said than done.

But like, if it comes down to a trust issue with how's my tithe being stewarded, well, that—

then that's another question.

Have a bigger conversation. And I'd rather see a church with, um, small— with fewer fog lights or whatever and more like, we're gonna— I want the church to create fund that is constantly building, cuz we have these recurring needs of our members. I love that.

Mm-hmm.

Um, let's, let's have that.

Yeah.

So it's, so it comes up every time. But by the way, every one of us feels, has feelings. We feel guilty.

Sure.

Yes.

And then as adults, this is, this is what emotional maturity is. I have this feeling and then I'm gonna go do the next right thing. And if the next right thing is me and my husband agreed on, here's our vision for our life. And by the way, an anchored family who's got an extra bedroom— I've had, I've had college students living with us all summer. Like, you can do a lot of good with that too, right? And so let's make this commitment. I have this feeling, I feel sad, I feel guilty, whatever. Now I'm gonna go do the next right thing, right? So don't be trapped in this, I feel this way, so I have to just mindlessly respond and then react. Have a set of— an anchored set of values and have a plan that you and your husband agree on, and then move forward.

Yep, I like that. Hopefully we helped on that one. All right, next we've got Holden who's in Orlando, Florida. What's up, Holden? How can we help?

Hey guys, thank you for taking my call. Um, so I am 27 years old, saved up about $40,000, um, just got married about 2 months ago. Combined we make about $120,000 to $130,000. Um, looking into buying a multi-family home. Um, I will— I've been kind of set on that from a mentor kind of mentoring me in that, kind of having the fear of like, do I do this if the numbers make sense and just kind of deciding what I can afford, or do I kind of buy a cheap home and kind of save and continue to save and go from there?

Can I ask you a question?

Yes.

Would you do what the mentor says even if you can't afford it just because he said to do it?

No.

Okay, that's all I need to know. Now I know we can help you. All right, so we— you've got $40,000 saved, you're newlywed, and you guys' combined income is $20,000. $100,000, no debt. Have you guys bought a home for yourself yet?

No, our combined is about $120,000 to $130,000. Um, we are living with my parents currently rent-free. Um, they are Christians, we are Christians. They were very welcoming, like, you guys can come stay here for as long as you need to get your— get on your feet, save, whatever.

Okay.

Um, obviously there is tensions with being newly married, living in the same home.

I bet there is.

Just kind of needing space. So I'm trying not to— I'm trying to tread lightly on that and not wait too long, but not also—

what are you waiting for? Like, what, what's the purpose? I'm looking at two people who have awesome incomes, they've got money saved. Why in the heck are you living with your parents?

I think it's just because the numbers make sense and like investing in the right property. I think that's really—

okay, here's what I want to challenge challenge you on. I think that you're trading one really important thing for something that's not nearly as important. You're sitting here telling me, I got a newlywed wife, my wife's hot, and I'm living in my parents' house, and I can't be a newlywed the way I want to be because I'm trading it for investment property that is far out in the future.

So imagine your new kitchen table. I want you to set a seat for your wife. I want you to set a seat for your mom and dad. And I also want you to set a feet for this, uh, investor, this mentor of yours.

Yeah.

And all those other voices are speaking into this marriage that you've created with your wife.

Yeah.

I, I don't like people thinking of their first home as an investment property.

Okay.

One of the, one of the most— man, I was that guy, and I was this, I'm gonna move to this house, move that. And I remember one of the wisest financial minds I've ever own said, hey, Deloney, get your wife a home.

Get your wife a home.

And that, for whatever, it clicked. It was like, oh, this, this isn't a— this isn't an investment vehicle. This is a home.

It's our life.

It's our life.

And by the way, get your wife a home could be you renting a home, you renting an apartment. You guys, you've started your life together, and now this would be a totally— if you had called me and said, man, we've got $120,000 in debt and I only make $40,000 $30,000, and my parents said we could live there for, you know, a few months for free. That feels a little different, I'm not gonna lie. But you've got money and you've got income, and now you've got a brand new wife. Go into an apartment and have your space and start out your, your marriage in a place where you guys can have your privacy, you can have your conversations, there's room for you to argue, there's room for you to have all the things that are part of a new marriage, and enjoy that. Do you You know what I'm saying? And, and all of that is you guys building that together and you're so, so young that you have the time to build that together. You don't have to sacrifice. If you don't have to sacrifice to this level, man, don't do it.

Don't.

What, what are you, what do you think, what has your mentor told you're gonna gain from buying a multifamily property?

I think it's just like the long-term, like wealth that you can build deal with it. And I've always had like that kind of entrepreneur mindset and I felt that this was a way that I can get into that. And I just didn't want to, you know, make a mistake on just going and buying some home.

Um, it, it won't be a mistake.

That was just my only—

it won't be a mistake.

Okay.

And become a relational entrepreneur, build something amazing with your wife. Y'all co-create something awesome. Y'all get to build the marriage you want, dude. Go build one.

Hey guys, Rachel Cruze here with big news. The 2027 Ramsey Goal Planner is here, and you can get it at our lowest price for a limited time. Guys, this isn't just another calendar. It's the only planner with exclusive monthly content from John Delony, Jade Warshaw, and me to help you set clear goals and actually stick to them all year.

So don't wait.

Order yours by August 23rd to get our lowest price, just $35.97. Go to ramseysolutions.com/store to get the deal. That's ramseysolutions.com/store. All right, Your Ramsey Show scripture and quote of the day. Romans 12:12: Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Albert Einstein said, it's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. All right, I dig it.

He's also pretty smart.

Yeah, yeah, let's, let's He's just—

he's Einstein.

Yeah.

All right. Caleb is in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Hey Caleb, how can we help?

Hey guys. Hey, thanks for taking my call today.

You bet.

What's up?

Um, so, okay, my wife and I, uh, been married about 4 years. I'm 25. She's about to turn 23 here in a couple days. Um, anyway, we've been farming for about 5 years. I'm actually 5th generation generation on our family farm here. Currently living in— we're like the third family to live in this home that's been our third generation in this family. Anyway.

Got it.

So we are kind of stuck with a hard place, a hard decision to make. We made the decision this year within the last couple of weeks, actually, we're going to liquidate and sell our farm. Um, that's not our family farm, but it's my wife and I's farm. Um, we've, we've been at it for about 5 years and decided that this just isn't working. Um, the, the overwhelming debt load of farming is just absolutely atrocious.

Yeah.

Um, not, not something that I would really, I don't know. I, I'm much more interested in, um, helping out my dad and family. His, his health's not been good the last year or two. And so much more interested in helping him out as I, as I can. And so anyway, we're faced with a decision at the end of this sale here in a few months. We're working on kind of closing things up. We're gonna be left with, after we pay off all of our debt, we're gonna be left with about a net of $360,000 before taxes. But as you guys probably know, we're gonna be stuck with a pretty substantial tax bill that's probably looking at about $260,000 right now.

Why is that, capital gains tax?

Yes, sir, yeah. Yep, capital gains as well as depreciation on assets. So, you know, we've got center pivots and tractors and all that different stuff that'll all be. So all of that depreciation, we made the mistake of fully depreciating out at the very beginning, you know, just in case, and so, you know, pay that back. So the decision really, and this is the most basic part of the question, is I could either pay the $260,000 upfront and walk away with $100,000 just free and clear cash, basically for my wife and I to completely restart our lives. We just had a little boy about a year and a half ago, but we, you know, to restart our completely, you know, from ground zero zero, or the tax accountant said that we could reinvest $180,000 into assets that would, in my mind, be productive and, you know, my living. And then, you know, that cuts that tax bill back, back down to about half— $180,000 taxes, $180,000 investment. And then I guess I would have something to show for it, I guess, quote-unquote.

You have $100,000 to show for it, but you would have $0 to go start your new life with.

Yeah, the, the, uh, well, yeah, $100,000, that would be, um, I guess the tax accountant said it would be free and clear.

Yeah, but you get what I'm saying? You would have $180,000 tied up in potential assets, right? I mean, and, and you would hope— you're gambling, right? Like, you hope that pays off, and But you would have $0 in cash to go start this new life with. You still find yourself, you and your wife and your baby still find themselves at, we're taking a new path.

Yep.

Yeah, exactly. And you know, if we went the $100,000 route, we're probably not looking at sticking around. We're probably gonna move out of state to somewhere with a little bit more reasonable living costs and things like that. Just to stretch the dollar as well as if we're gonna start over, we're basically gonna say we're gonna clean slate this thing completely. And if not, we reinvest. It's the decision would be find some equipment that would make a living here at, you know, at home on this 5th generation farm that, you know, we were blessed and downright privileged to live in, to be honest.

Yeah, but then you're tangled up in family business now.

Yeah, I think that—

I think you've got about 2 years ago, and it hasn't rained in Colorado Springs in what, 10 years now?

I mean, yeah, tell me about that. That's for sure.

Yeah, it's tough all year long. It's— if you, if you told me, hey, I'm gonna go for something 5 years ago, and it, it doesn't work as you thought was going to work, and you are able to exit and someone writes you $100,000 check, Yep. I, I don't know. I'm sure your tax accountant's got it all figured out, but I'm just saying from a guy who's got two kids and a wife, and I, I'm desperately always seeking to solve for peace, right? That's, that's for me. What do you think, dude?

I think that you need to solve the, the problem of what you're going to do next without thinking of it through that lens, because otherwise it could— the tail could wag the dog and you could end up doing something that maybe is not— doesn't make sense in order to reinvest this money. And I haven't heard you say, here's what we did this farm, it didn't work. Here's what round 2 is. From a career standpoint, is this you going to another location and farming that land? Is this you like, what is it? What's it look like when you move away from this and make this sale? What is— what's your life after that?

So that would definitely pose an option, I guess, if we went somewhere somewhere else. We do. So we do own this house free and clear. It's about, it's worth about $430,000, at least appraisal price.

Okay.

Um, it's free and clear, um, with or without the farm.

Um, so you'll take that money?

No.

Yeah.

And so we'll be able to take that forward as well as the $100,000. Um, I don't know what the taxes would be on that house sale. Um, cause we bought it, oh, a couple of years ago.

Yeah. You'll, you'll, you should, I think you have half a million dollars.

Yeah.

You'll be fine. You'll be able to take like that and load it into the next house. So the question is, what are you doing for work is what I'm saying. What do you envision yourself doing?

And that right there is the, the million-dollar question right there, because I've been self-employed. We went straight— both of us went from high school into a state leadership position and then met each other and got married. So neither of us went to school, neither of us, um, did anything like that. Um, just went into— my wife is a homemaker. She a— she has a job on the side that brings home, oh, about $500 a month.

Do you see my point, Caleb? Is if you say, yeah, I'm going to reinvest this money into new equipment— new equipment to do what? You haven't even decided what you're doing yet. So I think that that—

oh, it would go on the family farm, and he's going to hope Cousin Willie's greasing the axles when he's supposed— like, dude, I, I, I wouldn't be involved with that. If, if you said, I want to go work full-time on this family farm and they're going to pay me $100 grand a year— and I made that number up— like, they're going to pay pay me and I want to be a farmer still, but I'm going to farm their land. Yeah, maybe.

Well, I'll tell you, that is the dream. Of course that is the dream, and that's why we started out that way. But quite frankly, the family farm can't afford— they can barely afford to pay the person that's—

well, that's what I was going to say. What's the difference between this farm and the farm?

Yeah, it doesn't work, brother. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, I mean, and you're a tax accountant, sounds like. I mean, they're probably— what they're— I know they're 100 times smarter than I am, and they're probably trying to give you— here's a path you can take to not do in the short term. I'd rather see you—

let me ask you one last question about this then, because I kind of agree with you, and that's kind of been my hunch, is the $100,000, it's safer, but not only safer, it's more peaceful. Um, let me ask you this. So a year and a half ago, 2 years ago, I guess, right before my son was born, um, I had made a poor decision to go into business with some other family, um, that ended up going under and really Really destroyed relationships, also carried forward a bunch of debt we carried forward. I mean, it was really a painful thing. Anyway, in that, in the aftermath, I was, we were forced to make the decision to sell all but 3 of the cows that my wife brought into our marriage. She worked—

Caleb, Caleb.

Literally since middle school. Caleb, who's Caleb?

Here's the thing, I'm up against the clock and I've got to let you know, you said— you already said with your own mouth the solution to this problem. You said the peaceful route would be to take the $100,000.

Let the cows ride, dude.

John has said, solve for peace, solve for peace. The peaceful route is to take the $100,000, and you said it out of your own mouth, which is— that's how you feel when you think about it. That's what you need to do. All right guys, thanks for hanging out with us. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.