Transcript of If You Feel Stuck, It’s Time for a Reset

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Normal is broken. Common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. Alongside George Campbell, I'm Ken Coleman. The phone number, 888-825-5225. A Daddy for the second time. I'm sure you've talked about it this week, but you haven't talked about it with me, so I want to give a nod. You look-Thank you. Amazingly Interestingly refreshed for a guy who's getting no sleep.

I did the cucumber on the eyes and everything you told me to do, Ken. So thank you.

The advice worked. All my facial tips, folks. A little sneak up on you. Well, congratulations, my friend.

You're ready to go? I'm pumped.

All right, let's go to Joey in California. Joey, how can we help?

Hello. How are you guys doing?

We're doing great. George is a little sleepy, but he is alert.

Go easy on me, Joey.

He's alert.

That's awesome. All right. The question that I had for you, I've been following the show I'm trying to get out of debt as much as I can. The last two things that I have on my plate is my car loan. It's 28,353 to be exact. And then I owe city tax, sales tax, and I'm on a payment plan for 31,774. My question being, I have an offer from a dealer for a trade-in for 25,000 on my car. I don't, at the moment, have the money to pay the 3,000 because I'm not trying to take money out of my sales tax account and all the stuff that I'm going to owe for the end of the year. So I just want to know what's best in this situation to keep moving forward.

What other debt do you have?

That's it. I just have the car and sales tax. That's literally everything.

And what do you make?

I run, so 80 to 100, if fluctuates. But I have my own company. I do screen printing and border.

What if you had the money, the whole enchilada, the extra 3,000. What if you had all that set aside? What would you do for a car if you took this deal?

That's my other question.

You don't have any money for that either.

No, I don't have any other money for that. I could go Can I borrow again, and that's exactly what I don't want to do.

No, no, no, no, no. That's not where I was going. I just wanted to see where we stood. If you had money set aside for a beater.

Do you have anything in savings?

I do have a thousand dollars. Okay. Yeah, I have the thousand dollars, and I do have a little bit in my stock account, but it's not much. It's another five, six hundred bucks.

Okay. Well, I mean, you're halfway there.

Did you say stock account?

A stock account? He's got some single stocks.

Sorry, I heard stock, and I was like, That's fun. That's different. Yeah, different. That's in the top chart.

Okay, so here's the deal. The Trade-in offer is way less than you would get if you sold it privately. So could you sell it privately and get 28 or 29, 30 for it?

I posted it. It's been on the market for about five months now. I've been listening to the show since the beginning of the year, so that's what I first tried, and it hasn't sold. I just think that everybody's in the same situation where it's a soft market.

What car is it?

It's 2021 Grand Cherokee.

What do you have it listed for?

I have it listed for '28.

Okay. And you've checked Kelly Blue Book, private party value, and you're right on the money there, or a little under?

I'm right I don't really count on the money as far as the private sale. The Tradeinn, I've gotten as low because I've shopped it to many dealers. I've gotten as low as 19,000. And for whatever reason, this dealer is offering 25. So that's why I'm completely over and high.

That's because it contingent on you getting a new car from them? Because sometimes they'll try to hose you in and go, Well, you'll have to get a new car payment from us to do the trading at this value.

Yeah, I made sure of it. I made sure that it wasn't any of the terms. It's just straight 25, and that's it. Okay.

Could you go to your local credit union and get a small loan for the difference that you owe, maybe plus a little bit more to get you something to drive around in for now?

Yeah. So that was the other thing that I had thought is, because I I was going to just take a little bit out of my sales tax and pay myself back on it and get a beater. But then I just thought, I do use the car a lot for deliveries for the company.

Well, on my screen here, it says, should I lease a car? You haven't mentioned that part yet.

Yeah. So that was the other question. Instead of carrying the debt, and I know the answer from you guys, I just wanted to hear it. Maybe that will help me get out of that mindset. No.

So let's save it all. When somebody says, I know what you're going to say, but I want to hear it. Let's just save some time. No. Okay. All right.

So, George, we answer calls of how we would deal with this if we were in your shoes, and I would be going down to my credit union and trying to get a loan for, let's say, $9,000. That They'll cover your three and give you six to go get something off Facebook marketplace that'll get you from A to B.

Okay.

And that avoids you leasing a brand new car, that avoids you taking on another car payment, and it avoids taking on more debt. Instead of just reducing your debt from this 28,000 or 31,000 down to nine. So we're much closer to getting you debt free.

What's the car payment on this current car?

514. 514 is the car payment in gas. I'm spending around three. And then the insurance is around $125.

That's great. Then you're debt-free. You got an extra $500 to throw at your emergency fund and savings and your tax liability.

With the income you make, if you do George's plan, you should be able to pay off that small loan to the credit union pretty quickly. Get after it.

The other thing is, in the next 30 days, seven grand is going to slip through your hands. Am I wrong?

No. Yeah.

You'll have $3,000 to cover the difference in the next 30 days. That's right. There's no crazy rush on this. If you can just really live on nothing for the next 30 days, 60 days, you'll have the money to sell this car outright.

Yeah. That's what I've been doing. I haven't been doing anything crazy. The number has I've been going down and down. And I think that I'm just in the mindset going crazy, trying to get completely out of debt by the end of the year. That's my goal. So my second question to your guys's answer is, it's okay to get that second loan, even though I'm pulling out more money, but getting out of this car.

Yeah, you're not necessarily pulling out more money. What you're doing is reducing $31,000 of debt down to nine.

Okay.

And so it's like a debt payoff plan. And then that 9,000, you're going to attack aggressively.

But what I heard is if you're just patient, you're intentional, there's the only debt you have, let's get that budget. In the next 30 days, you've got that extra three grand, so then you can take the deal. Okay. You see what I'm saying? I think that's actually a pretty good deal.

Can they keep that?

Because for five months, you've... Yeah, I'd go to them and say, Guys, here's my deal. I'm in. Can we agree to this? Will you hold that price? Will you still give me the three weeks from now when I get my next check or whatever, and now you get 25 for it. You've got the additional three, so we're not going down the credit union. Are you suggesting he still do that for a beater car?

Well, he It's something to get around A to B. I don't know what your situation is, how close you are to work.

I don't know if you could wait 60 days. I think you have to look at everything. The car dealers, they're a little bit desperate right now. That market is soft. The reason they're giving you a good offer on this is because they're just looking for transactions. They obviously can sell it. If they're going to give you 25 for it, there's enough margin in it. Because I don't think people realize this, George, is such a razor-thin margin in the car business. The way they make the money is the financing. They don't make a lot of money on the actual transaction.

They might make a few hundred bucks off the transaction. They'll make a few thousand if they can get you to finance it long term with a kickback.

That's what they see. They see your car as a good car and they can make more money on it. I don't know. See if they'll honor the price in 60 days. Just as an option, you've got two ideas here from George.

Get resourceful, man. But make sure you take debt off the table as an option of going to lease a car or getting a new payment.

Pretty interesting. Puts it out there. Five months, no bites on a nice Grand Cherokee.

It tells you where we're at in the economy.

Dave, we got a lot of calls on this show where life happens. One day someone's healthy, they're working, providing for their family, and then a curveball hits.

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All right, Sabrina is up next in Bittenville, Arkansas.

Sabrina, how can we help?

Thank you so much for taking my call. I am really good at saving money, but I'm not good at making money. So I'm trying to figure out if I need a new career path and if I should get a certification, go back to school or something. Then the other part to it is I also feel like I can't afford to work because I am currently receiving some government benefits, and I desperately want to be independent, but it's hard to make enough money to make up for what I would lose.

Okay, got it. Well, this is fun. This is a good day for you because we're going to talk about work options, but you also got the budgeting guru to my right here who can help out. So this will be fun. Okay, let's get into this Are you single? Are you married? What is your relationship status?

I'm a single mom.

You're a single mom. Okay, what is your income? Tell us what your income consists of. How much is it? What does it consist of?

I have been trying to build a business, and last year was the first year we turned a profit, and it was only maybe $10,000. I do get a little bit under $1,000 of disability a month, and then I received some child support.

Okay, so what is the... Let's get real numbers here. We're going to put the business aside because that's just not enough to even count at this point. Just under $1,000, How close to $1,000 are we on the disability?

$967.

$957. Okay. Then what's the child's support?

$750.

Is that consistent? It is. So he's doing a good job there. Okay. That is $1,700 a month because the $10,000 is just, again, I'm not even going to try to count that. What is the business?

I make specialty dog houses.

And you make this? I mean, this is like cutting, sawing wood, hammering together. Is that right? Yes. Wow. And may I ask, what is your disability payment for?

A I had a few different things. I had a brain tumor and a lot of mental health struggles. So I was excited. I was getting over those things, and I thought I could hold down a job. But actually, just a few weeks ago, I started having a lot of heart issues now.

Oh, bless you.

I just don't know what's happening.

Does the physical labor aggravate any of this?

Absolutely. I mean, that's why it has been so slow growing.

Okay. We need to find a whole new career/business for you that won't affect your health.

But before we get into that, let's look at if you were to get a full full-time job, I'm assuming the 9: 57 goes away. That's what you were addressing, correct?

Yes. Also, we get Snap benefits. With that, I get free phone and cheap internet. There's just a host of things we get.

Okay, well, let's give George and I that picture.

What would that- Because I can help you get really great phone service for $20 a month. I can help you get great internet for 50 bucks a month. If we're talking, Hey, I'm going to lose 200 bucks of benefits in 9: 57, great. We can help you go make two grand a month and cover everything. That's right.

Here's the deal, Sabrina. The physical stuff is a challenge, and you're navigating that to the best of your ability. But I have talked to so many people who are in your shoes where they feel like it is such a crazy risk to let go of a minimal benefit in order to actually make quite a bit more money. You've got to understand it's very simple math. If we start bringing home three or four grand a month, then we're not worried about those benefits. Would you agree with that statement?

Yes.

Okay. We also know that you can't do something that's very, very physical. So pretty soon, if not right away, we are going to at least press pause on this side hustle or this business that involves manual labor. We agree with that statement, too, correct?

That's a hard one, but I see your point.

Well, this isn't my opinion. This is if To George's point, if the physical labor is causing issues, then we need to do something, correct? Yes. Okay. It also feels then that a job where you're on your feet all day long might also be problematic. Is that true?

Right now, what I'm going through is. Again, I was hoping I was feeling better and then got hit with it.

I get it. Listen, hang in there. This is just another storm you've been through worse, yes? Yes. Okay, so let's talk about remote work. What have you done in the past? Do you have any prior work history?

I've done some direct sales. I work on a ranch for years. I have work experience. I've always worked. I've just never made good money.

Okay. Well, again, we'll work to that. We just got to get steady work, and then we figure out how to grow. Okay. Okay. My question is, is there anything that you did on the ranch or in the direct sales that immediately spits out an idea to you to say, Hey, this I can do?

I mean, both of them I loved. And with direct sales- What were you selling? I am good at selling. What were you selling? It was Mary Kay. And so I'm very familiar with skincare, and I have looked into getting my cosmetology license.

Well, right now, we're not getting any licenses because we don't have any money. Okay. How much is a cosmetology license?

After a Pell grant, about 6,000.

Yeah. That's not realistic for you right now. Okay. Now, can we build up to that? Is that a target in the future? Yes. But what has to be true in your health? And then how much money do we need to be able to assemble in order to save $6,000? That's going to take some time. We want to, just like the baby steps and get out of debt, we need some baby steps to get you some better income. Here's what I think. I think you ought to be looking at anything and everything as it relates to some type of online sales or even customer service that pays well, because if you can sell well, then you can do customer service. Over the phone or online chat agent, I would be looking, because here's what's true about those jobs. Those jobs have high turnover because other people are looking to do something else. But in In your case, I think it could be great because it represents stability. We want to get to a point, George, where we bring in enough income to where we're not worried about the $957 in benefits and the $750 in child support is just that.

It's gravy for your children. George, I want to bring you in. You've been listening here. I think this is remote work because of her health, and I also think that those opportunities are out there due to turnover.

Your thoughts, you've been listening. I'm trying to figure out the child care situation. How many hours could you work per week?

That's another issue. I have her every other week, so when I don't have her, my schedule is very flexible. When she's in school, really, there's about five hours by the time I drive and pick her up and do all those things.

That's fine. Okay. We got to make the best of it. It's not an issue. This is a See, when someone says this is an issue, that means, Oh, there's another limitation. No, no, no, no, no. You're a single mom, and you've overcome a lot of physical stuff. You can do this because you have to do this. This isn't an issue. This makes a It's challenging. But if I can work five hours a day, then I'm going to work five hours a day. Yes?

Will I be able to make enough money, though? Yeah. To make up for the benefits.

Yes. If you crunch the numbers for pretty much any retail job, you'll find out very quickly that your quality of life will go up if you get outside of this system if you have the ability to work. That's right. That's the key. I'm not mad at these government programs, but they cause people to stay stuck in these cycles where they think, This is it. This is as good as my life is going to get. I can only save up to $2,000 or else they cut all my benefits. I want to show you a life where you have agency, where you have more control. That's going to take some work. It's not going to be easy. But if we can get you working 25 hours a week doing retail at a Sephora doing some makeup You're going to have a better quality of life financially. Yeah.

By the way, don't just take our word for it, Sabrina. Run the numbers. Run 25 hours a week at 15 bucks an hour or 30 hours a week at 20 bucks an hour. Run real numbers so that you get out of this mindset that I'm stuck with this benefit. You actually can do this, and you have to do this. We're cheering you on, and you can do this. George, should we do a little Every Dollar?

I love that. Hang on the line. We're going to send you our Every Dollar budgeting app, the premium version, to help you through this. If you ever googled yourself, here's the two worst things you can find. Photo evidence of your worst haircut and your personal data floating around on some sketchy website. I mean, the bangs were regrettable, but your info being bought, sold, and reposted all over the worldwide web, even worse. And trust me, it happens all the time. And that's why I use delete me. You guys, over 20 billion records have been leaked in recent years, and that info gets pulled into these people search sites. So stuff like your name, number, address, even your kids' names is out there for anyone to see. But if you're trying to clean up your personal data yourself, good luck. It can be a part-time job just submitting these opt-out requests. So if you don't want your personal info out there, you should be using delete me, too. Delete me has real people who track down your data, remove it from these shady sites, and make sure it stays removed. Plus, you get a report from delete me showing exactly what was found and what's been deleted.

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Hey, if you are tired of living paycheck to paycheck, you need to join one of our free Every Dollar trainings. They're new trainings every week this month, and they're hosted by one of our Ramsey personalities, like my pal George Campbell here. They're going to show you how to stick to a budget even fine. You ready for this? $9,000 worth of margin, and all using every dollar. This will help you get out of debt and build wealth. Plus, you can ask questions during this live Q&A. So it's not just like you looking and listening. You get a chance to ask a very specific question. You can sign it for free. The whole thing's free. Ramseysolutions. Com/webinar. Tyler's up in Orlando, Florida. Tyler, how can we help today?

Hey, guys. One of the things that I've been struggling with on Baby Step number 4, I just started investing. I have been investing, but one of the things that's been hard for me is investing in a Roth IRA or a 401k, any of those retirement funds. And the reason for that is because, honestly, I don't think I'll live that long, and I don't know how to break out of that.

Do you have a terminal illness?

No, sir.

Okay, I'll bite. How old are you? This isn't a money question. You got some weird psychology thing going on that you probably need to get some help with because you just literally like, I just don't know. What age are you right now and what age are you confident saying, Hey, George, can I think I'll make it this far?

I'm 24. I don't know. That's part of The thing is, I don't know that I won't make it or anything. It's just something blocking me. Like, Hey, 65, that's a long time away.

Tyler, welcome to life. This is really going to freak you out. Can I get Can I be personal with you for a second? Can I be personal? Sure. Tyler, I'm 51, and I feel like I got a lot of left to give, but I have no idea if I make it through to midnight tonight. Fair?

Fair.

So if I spend time thinking about that all the time, I'm not going to have issues with 401(k)s. I'm going to have issues with everything, yes?

Yeah, that's true.

You're 24. I hate to be so harsh, but Tyler, you are that you're going to die, right?

I do know that, yes.

Yes. And you are aware that you have no idea when that's going to happen, right?

Yes, I do know that, too.

I think you're focused on just the I don't know if this is a stage of your life that you're in. I don't know you all enough to give you some analysis.

Is it a quarter life crisis? Well, I guess it depends. It could be midlife, depending on how long he plans to live. We don't know. Are you single, Tyler?

Yes, sir.

Okay. What It might change once you have a family. I don't know. But there's a piece of this where I go, The heart of this is, I don't think planning for the future is worth it because I don't know what the future is going to hold.

Right.

Yeah, that's what I feel.

By the way, not Crazy. I don't think you're nuts, by the way. But let's flip that. We don't plan for the future and then say, boy, that's silly. Why would we plan for something that we have no idea what it is? If you leave it to that, it's pretty good philosophy, right? But that's not what we do. We plan for it so that if we make it, we can actually make it, correct? Yeah. What happens if you go, Well, I'm 24. I'm not going to plan for the future. I'm going to live like I'm dying. It's a great Tim McGraw song. Then I make it to my 40s, and then I make it to my 50s, and then I make it to my 60s. Then I wake up one day and I go, I got nothing, and I can't work any longer, and now I'm really in trouble. Gee, whiz, I wish I had a plan for this. That's the flip side. George, what would you say to this? Because I don't think there's anybody better suited to address this neurosis than you.

Well, there's a lot of angles here, but the one I keep going back to is there's a much higher likelihood that you retire broke than you dying at a young age. That's what we're seeing right now as a retirement crisis because people went, Well, I'll just save later. Right now, I have other things to do. I got debt to pay. I don't know how to invest. I'm scared, whatever the reason is, they don't invest, and therefore, they don't have anything later. So you reap what you sow. If you plant corn later on, you're going to have some corn when the harvest comes. If you don't, don't be surprised when you're 61, broke, working a job you hate, going, I didn't think I'd live this long. Uh-oh. There's a lot of other questions around this that makes me think that maybe you just need some purpose in your work, a vision for the future, and you're just feeling a little bit lost right now.

I wonder, are you a Are you a person who over-analyzes everything?

Definitely, for sure.

Are you in debt right now?

I paid off all my debts.

Yes, sir. Why would you do that if we don't know what the future holds? Why not just get as much debt as you can because we'll just die one day. Tricky, George.

That's a good point. You got him. That's a good point. I see. Why did you pay off debt?

Why did you pay off your debt?

Just because I knew I needed. I was living horribly in every way possible, and I was I don't want to do this anymore.

Yeah, but why not rack up a ton of credit cards, second mortgages? Let's just go to the hilt because we're living for the moment, man. I don't know what tomorrow holds. Why not do that?

I guess because I do want a better future.

I guess I'm making an assumption that there is a future.

I know. When you go to bed tonight, you're assuming you're going to wake up tomorrow. And I'd rather you wake up with more money than you had the day before. Maybe not, Tyler. I don't know. It's not that you need to hoard wealth. I see part of this is, are you worried that you're not going to get to enjoy the money?

If I put it into something like mutual funds or an index ETF, if I needed that at an earlier time, I'm not going to get all those penalties that I would take if I took it out at 45.

I love this. Well, there's a much better solution. The solution is not, Well, let me not invest. The The solution is, let me invest in retirement and start to create a Bridge account that's in a taxable brokerage that you could use before you're 60. Let's say you wanted to early retire, start a business, pursue some hobbies at 50. You're going, Well, I don't want to eat all the penalties. Well, you can use this Bridge account to cover those expenses. But you're not going to be able to do that if you don't start investing today. So are you completely debt free with a fully funded emergency fund? Yes, sir. Great. And how much do you make?

A Around 4,000 a month.

What do you do for a living?

I work for a rehabilitation center.

What do you want to do long term? What is 44-year-old Tyler- I actually really...

Sorry. I actually really like this. I We're being promoted here pretty soon to run over a intensive outpatient unit. Great. That's something I absolutely am so excited to do.

I can't stand it. Well, that's great news. What's the What's the health history of your family? How long do they live? Fine.

The only person in my direct family that's died is my grandfather from skin cancer.

How old was he?

He was 68.

Okay. So again, I really believe, I was not kidding earlier when I said, Therapy, if this stuff starts to grip you to where you're making nonsensical decisions. So for one thing, you believe in paying off debt, but you don't know why it makes sense to save money for when in your 70s. None of this makes you a freak. Having a little fun with this. George and I just walked you into some corners so you could see how your logic wasn't really playing out well. But at the same time, if you've got a real fear on this, and this is coming from somewhere, talking to somebody is great. Let's just get me... What's going on here? Because I can tell you this, there's a fear, and I'm not going to unpack all this on the show, but in five minutes, George and I can figure out pretty quickly, what is this undercurrent of fear? Where is it coming from? Because that's what's driving the very question that you're asking today. So be okay diving into that. See how this affects our money? Our fears affect our future.

Because if you got fears and doubts about the future, and you're feeling hopeless about it, why would you invest? I agree. There's no reason to. But if you feel like, Man, I got a life to live. I could live until I'm 90. I want to make an impact. I want to leave legacy. I want to have a family. I want to leave them inheritance, then I'm going to get to investing. So what I would do, if I were you, Tyler, I would fully fund a Roth IRA for the year. Then any money beyond that, you can throw into an index fund in a brokerage account and start to build this Bridge account. From 24 to 65 or until 50, you're going to have a big old pile of money to enjoy long before your golden years.

You know why I want a bunch of money when I'm in my '70s?

Because you want a pickleball court in your backyard.

I'm going to go, yes, as a matter of fact. Maybe I take all my geriatric friends on a pickleball cruise.

You know what? You're going to be the guy with a boat. I want you to be my friend with a boat because I'm not going to buy one. But Ken and his little yacht with his little captain's hat, sign me up. You know what?

You got me pegged wrong. I like all the boat outfits, but I think I'd rent the boat, not buy the boat. He's all about the fashion.

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Hey, guys. I appreciate you taking my call today. How are you guys doing?

Good. How are you, sir?

Good. So, Evan is calling in. So my wife, she picked up one of Dave Ramsey's books about four years ago, and we started doing the seven baby steps. So we were lucky enough, and we did them slightly out of order, because I have $65,000 worth of federal loans for school. But I am in the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, and I've been in there for eight and a half years at this point. So we skipped around a little bit, and we were lucky enough to pay off our house last week.

Whoa, congrats. I wouldn't call that luck. No one paid it off for you. You didn't win a sweepstake.

I'm dying to know. I think America is dying to know, what order are we in right now? If we went to Baby Step 6, what have we not done?

So I have the list up. We did step one. We have all debt paid off. We paid our cars off. We paid off my private student loans, which was about 75,000. I paid off both cars. We have about six months of our emergency fund fully funded.

You did Baby Step four, you're investing 15 %.

So that's where me and my wife are both at about 10 % each. And so far together, she has about 145 saved up in retirement. And I have 75,000 in my 401(k), and then another 28,000 in a pension. So once that pension, if I were to continue with the pension, I guess when I retire, I would get about 626 dollars a month. And that was one of my questions I was leaning I didn't know, because sometimes pensions, they expire sometimes, or sometimes they don't follow through by the time you're that age. So I invested 28,000 into the S, so I didn't know if that would be a good idea to remain in with the pension, or if you guys would recommend maybe moving that over to a rough IRA, if that's even an option.

Yeah, I mean, you'll do much better investing on your own outside of that pension, because the returns are horrible, because of how conservative they have to be. And you have no control. So it dies with you, versus a Roth IRA, a 401(k), that can actually continue down the family line. So there's a few things on the pension. But your question today, is it revolving around the remaining student loan debt?

Yeah, so Part of it is that, and then the other question is, what do we do moving forward? Like I said, since we work hard, we get the house paid off, I wanted to hear from your guys' perspective, I guess, about the student loan debt, because I know- What is the question?

Previously- What is the question? We got enough information. What is your direct question?

The direct question is, should I continue with my current payments of $308 a month until I hit that 10-year mark in hopes that it will be forgiven as I have my 10 years of 120 payments?

How much hope you got?

Well, as of recently, I've had about five or six colleagues that have gotten those forgiven. Who I work with. So that's the most hope I've gotten in a little while. Prior to that, I haven't heard too many people get forgiven.

Exactly. And you're eight and a half years in out of ten. So you're like, Hey, man, I'm already... This is some cost fallacy. I'm already this deep into it. Do I just write it out and see what happens? Yeah. Do you have 65 grand sitting in a savings account right now, you could pay it off with?

Not right now. I don't know. I mean, we got the emergency fund and then maybe another 15K combined in checking the savings.

What was the original balance of the federal student loans?

They were, it's been about 65. It hasn't moved.

Can I tell you something hilarious? You have paid 31,000 plus toward your student loans, and the balance hasn't moved. Yeah. So this was not a free ride from the get-go. That $308 for eight and a half years, it cost you. And so you can ride it out for another year and a half and hope that it's there. I would personally, if you're going to do that, you would better have that 65 five grand sitting there ready to pay it off in case something falls through, in case you didn't dot the I and cross the T, and they go, Nope, rejected. So I'm not mad if you hold on to this point for a year and a half, but I also think you guys have a high income that you could just knock them out at this stage of the game, especially with no mortgage payment. What are you guys making?

Yeah, so I make 143, and my wife makes 123. So we're at about 266 total.

This is the hilarious part. You guys could pay this off in less than a year. But instead, we've hung onto it for a decade for a false promise while paying 31 grand toward it and making no progress. That's the part that breaks my heart for you guys.

Yeah, like I said, I was the first one to go to college with my family, so I didn't really understand taking out loans, exactly what that means in the long term. And I found out the hard way there. And like I said, unfortunately, I'm eight and a half years in now, so I was trying to We're to figure out for the next year and a half, what do we do? And then what can we do for our kid moving forward so they don't have to deal with student loans?

Well, that's all in the baby steps. If you guys had just followed it from day one, as it is stated, you got baby step five there. Once you get rid of all the debt, we're investing into 529 plans. That's what I just had another kid already opening up the 529 to start investing, because you invest a few hundred bucks a month into that thing, it's going to be six figures by the time they turn 18.

Okay.

Thanks to compound growth.

You use the 529, so you guys are definitely pro 529.

Yes, 100 %. There's also the education savings account, but it has more limitations as far as income and contribution limits. And 529 plans have come a long way. And so they're a great opportunity to invest for college with tax-free withdrawals for education. So I would do that. But at first, before you do that, let's put our own mask on first and get rid of this debt. And if it were me, I would just knock them out. I know you're going to be mad either way. You're going to be mad you waited a decade to knock this making a quarter million dollars a year. And you're going to be mad if you just save up and knock it out in the next eight months making 266. So you're going to be okay. You guys have done great. Yeah, you've shown discipline. Even if you've done it out of order. You don't get an A on the Ramsey baby steps, but you're doing great compared to the rest of America. I'm rooting for you. I hope you knock this dead out one way or the other. I hope the forgiveness works out because you've put so much into it at this point.

It's just anger-inducing if the government decides at the final hour No, don't let them through.

Oh, it's induced some anger in me. This situation for Zack has really steeped my broccoli.

Uh-oh. And Ken hates steeped broccoli.

I do. You should only grill broccoli, incidentally. I'll be roast it.

I'll be roast it. Little olive oil, lemon.

I don't mind roast it, broccoli. But we digress. But can I just say that this is what really upsets me about the federal student loan program? If I could just say to anybody who is considering it, if there's any way for you to avoid it, avoid it. The federal government should not be in the banking business. This is banking. Zack's story. You've estimated he's paid $31,000 in interest. The principle hasn't even been touched. The federal government did this as a favor. This was a good idea in the late '50s and '60s when this whole thing started. The federal government is simply playing banker to millions of Americans, a lot of young Americans who have been told for decades by the culture, the parents we've bought into it, I haven't. You all have heard me rant about this before, that college is the only way. What is happening here is this situation. Fortunately, in Zack's case, he's not one that's been broken by it, but it does stick in the old crawl for me on behalf of Zack to go, When I heard you say it that way, it just really upset me.

Math can be very upsetting. Yeah.

It's all in the guise of, Well, get your degree and we'll help you. We'll give you a low interest thing.

A lot of people stay in jobs they don't want to be in, in the public sector, and they could move to the... But they think, Well, I got to do this for 10 years and ride it out. That's a big portion of your adult life.

We ought to remove the federal student loan program. It ought to go away. Congress I just thought to get rid of it. Completely delete it and get rid of it. I'm with you on that. It's sinking so many people.

Check out our Bar Future documentary. It's free on YouTube. It will change your mind about the entire further education system we've got.

By the way, on the whole broccoli thing, a little olive oil on it.

I mentioned that. If you go back, listen to the tape.

Did you say that? Yes. Wow, I took it like it was my own idea.

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studios. I'm Ken Coleman, the Natalie-attired-My name's George. George Campbell joins me. I was just going to say something about the baby, and I couldn't get anything.

It's all right. It's a slow news day.

That's exactly right. Joe is up in Massachusetts. Joe, how can we help?

Hey, guys.

Thanks for taking my call.

How are you doing today? We're doing well. What's going on?

My wife and I have about $240,000 worth of debt, and we are struggling paying it off while balancing raising our young family in our current home, where the mortgage is taking up about 50% of our income now that my wife is going to be staying at home with the kids.

How How soon is that happening? Or has it already happened where she's coming home and now the paycheck's going away?

It's going to be in June.

Okay, so we have a little bit of runway. That's why I interrupted you there. Go ahead with your question. Okay.

The question is, should we sell our dream home where we want to raise our family, or should we sell it to try to get out of debt faster? That's the main question.

What debt is the $240?

We have $150 of student loans, $40 of personal loans, and another 40 of two cars that we drive.

If we take both cars, what are the combined car payments?

Combined car beings, they are probably about $1,000 a month.

We owe 40 on them.

They're probably worth about $45.

But do you see what I'm saying? I'd attack that. That's my first option.

That's one solvable problem there.

That's $1,000 a month, twelve thousand a year. So the mortgage is still too much, and it's about to be way too much now that you're going to lose your wife's income.

What is she making?

She makes about twenty thousand part-time right now.

Okay. So we're not losing the lion's share of the household income, but things are only going to get tighter at this point. Yes. What are you doing for work and what do you make?

I'm a PA, a physician assistant. I make about 150 a day salary, and I can make up to another hundred or so if I really grind my butt off and- Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

I'm thinking we really grind our butt off, my friend.

I was thinking about the butt grinding as well. I really was. I thought this is what you should do. You should do that.

If you did that, it'd be for a season. I don't want you to be doing this forever, and hopefully your income goes up over time as a PA. Would that change the numbers on the mortgage? Because I don't want to run to selling the house as like, Yep, just go do that tomorrow. But if If there's no end in sight, no light at the end of this tunnel, then it might be time.

Okay. Would you start with the cars, George, if you could?

The cars are the easiest thing. That's something you can control today. You can't sell your degree. You can't sell the person alone, but you can sell these cars and make out with five grand and save some up over the next couple of paychecks and get yourself some used cars.

Now add $1,000 to the debt snowball to get rid of the rest of this stuff.

Because if 150 trying to pay off two 40 with a crushing mortgage, it's going to take you a decade. But if we can make 250 and pay off 200, this is a solvable problem.

George, run those numbers for him. Let's assume that you're getting after it and you're going to make that additional 100 grand. Would that get him in alignment on our 25 %?

That would probably be a take home of about 14 or so grand a month, maybe close to that. And so then you can- What's your mortgage payment? You can throw seven or eight.

It's 4,000 a month.

Okay. So the goal here with that mortgage, if you can't begin to make 15 or 16 a month take home, that four grand a month mortgage will eventually sink you guys, or at least really delay any progress financially. So that would be my thing for you guys. Let's see what the next 12 months holds, and if we can get the household income up to about 15, 16 take home a month, we can keep the house.

While paying stuff down. We want to create a little more margin. A lot more margin, actually.

Do you think that's feasible? I feel like all you're seeing is like, I'm going to be working a lot in the near future.

I'm already doing that for the past two years or so, but I'm ready to keep on going.

Because if your wife's going to stay home, I mean, that's a big decision. It's one that's born out of family values. It's emotional. It's more than just financial. It's more than math. But you're saying this is what she's called to do. She's going to do it. Now, what must be true for us to... Because you said dream home, and right now this home is turning quickly into a nightmare when you guys can't breathe trying to make all the bills.

Is it worth 2-3 years of really hustling to make that extra income so that you can stay in this house? For you, not your wife. I want you to answer that question on your behalf, not her behalf.

Yeah, I think it's definitely worth it for my family's stability and happiness. We really enjoy where we're at.

Great. You know what's going to be great coming out of this, beyond being debt free, is you're going to go, I'm never doing this again because you're going to work so stinking hard. You're going to teach yourself a very valuable lesson, yes?

Yes.

And do you both know that your lifestyle is about to change drastically to where you're not spending nearly as much as you have been in the past?

I think the alarm bell just went off, so we need to sit down and have a good talk about that.

You know, part of that talk is just laying out the numbers because right now it's going to feel all emotions. Just lay out an every dollar budget. Make it very logical, unemotional. Say, Hey, I just want to make a budget with you to show you what our finances currently look like, what they will look like. And maybe you guys find, Hey, we can actually get our expenses down to 6,500 a month. And if I can make 12 or 13 take home, well, now that's another six grand we can throw with the debt. Because let me give you some hope. If you can throw 6,600 bucks a month of this debt, you're done in two and a half years if you sold these cars. And a half year later, six months after that, you've got the fully funded emergency fund. Now we're completely debt free. We've got the mortgage under control if we can get our income up sustainably, and we have no debt. And so now we have all this extra margin we can use to start making some real progress and not feel like, Well, if you didn't stay home, we wouldn't be in the...

It's just going to become arguing and stress for the next several years. But if you guys both agree this is what the next three years looks like, are you in? It changes the game.

Okay. Yeah, that's feasible.

And is she going to be on board with this?

I think she'll be willing to do whatever it takes to stay where we are right now.

Yeah, and do whatever it takes for her to be able to come home.

Yes. Yeah. And you guys have a great why right now. That baby is one of the best whys to get you through this season. The good news is the baby won't remember what the heck happened. No. It's just going to go, Cool. I have a pretty sweet life. I got mom, I got dad. They're not stressed out. They're present. Versus what normally happens with PAs and docs and anyone in the medical field, they just... Lifestyle creep takes over. They're stressed out. But, man, it looks good on the outside. You got two luxury cars in the driveway, big, beautiful, luxury home.

That's a great point. Real quick, a little bit more hope, Joe. How old are you?

I am 30.

See, you're young. So you've got a lot of runway in front of you from an income standpoint, don't you?

Yes.

See. So, hey, you're 30. The next two or three years, really tough as far as a lot of work. But Man, does it set you up for the future? Yeah? Yeah. All right. That's the mindset. And listen, I'm not trying to give you a pep talk, but we are trying to inject you with a little bit of hope so that you go, Oh, okay. Tough medicine today, but long term, man, I'm going to be sitting pretty.

Make that every dollar budget, create that vision, and go, Man, by the time I'm 33, we're going to be in a different place financially. We are changing our family tree, and it's going to be a good life from 33 on. We got this. We're rooting for you, man.

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Com.

All right, to Michigan is where we're going to go, and Renee is there. Renee, how can we help?

Hi. Thanks for taking my call.

How are you? We are having a blast. What's going on with you? Good.

I'm just wondering how I can convince my husband that we're financially stable enough to move out of our parents house, even though we're still on baby set, too, and don't have enough saved for a house down payment.

How long How long have we been staying with his parents? No, your parents. How long have you guys been living with?

My parents, yes. It's been four years.

Since you've been married, you've been living with your parents?

No, we've been married since 2017.

So What happened that caused you guys to go, Hey, we can't rent anymore. We got to move in with mom and dad.

So what happened was we lived in Northern Michigan, and our rent was super cheap. Everything was great. And then my parents, they were the people who watched my kids, and they moved downstate, and there was no way that we could financially make it living up there without their help with the children.

Because you couldn't afford childcare. So you went, Well, we'll just move in with them, and they can just watch them all day while you two go off to work?

Right.

Okay. What do you guys make?

Our financial situation has changed now since then. We're bringing home about $9,000 a month.

For a crying out loud. I mean, what is really going on here? What is his deal?

What's really going on is, I don't know, he's scared, and I totally understand why, because when we lived at North, we were living paycheck to paycheck, and we were getting help from my parents. Now that we've lived down here, we're making at least triple what we were making at North. Yeah.

By the way, we're not going to play armchair quarterback, but you guys could have made it work before. So this pattern is repeating itself. It does us no good to go back and run the numbers from when you lived up there, but I can tell you there was a way. But you're right. He's not only scared. I think this guy has gotten real comfortable. What strikes me is it sounds to me like you're on your last nerve, and they're your parents.

I am on my last nerve, and I just- I knew it. And I don't want to- I knew it. Because we do help with the expenses of living in the house. It's not like we live here rent-free. I give my parents money every month. We help with everything. And that's worked into our budget, what we contribute to my parents. And really living on our own would only be probably $800 more a month.

Have you sat down with him and showed him an actual budget to say, Hey, here's what rent would be. I've got three different apartment complexes or whatever you're thinking. Here's place A, place B, place C. With all of those numbers together, we're only talking about an increase of $800 a month for us live on our own. Have you laid that out for him?

The thing is, I'm the one that manages all our finances. I manage all the credit card payments, all the car payments, the contribution, any trips that we take. I manage it all, and he doesn't know what's going on.

He doesn't know what's going on.

So show him. So wait a second. Do you remember the question I just asked you?

Have I sat down with him?

What's the answer to my question?

The answer is, I've tried and he's not interested What do you mean he's not interested?

He's the one that says, We can't make it financially. You go, Let me show you how we can. And he goes, No, thanks.

He literally goes, No, I don't want to look at it.

He says, No, I don't want to look at it. You handle the finances. He doesn't want to.

Listen, all right. When a guy is this stubborn, he has his head up as you know what. All right? That's all this boils down to. So if he says to you, I don't want to look at it, you handle it, then guess what? Go put a deposit down on an apartment today.

Say, I got us a lease. Hey, babe. It's 1,500 bucks a month to rent.

I got great news. Got us an apartment. And by the way, he doesn't know the numbers. And by the way, this is not me telling you to be dishonest with him, cover anything up. I'm not suggesting that at all. But this is a guy who you have attempted to show him, and he has literally checked out of the situation. He's not an adult when it comes to the money. And so I don't know why you got to convince a guy, nor I don't know how you convince a guy who refuses to have a conversation about it. I don't have a tip for that.

Well, he doesn't care about the money.

No, he's just so stuck on we're still in debt, and I want to go straight from my parents house into a house.

Are you? Are we what? Are you still big time in debt?

I mean, we have $46,000 in debt.

Can I hear the numbers? When you guys moved in, what did you start with? What What was your total debt balance when you guys moved in?

Probably 10 grand.

So you were 10 grand in debt when you moved in. Now you're 43 grand in debt years later? Mm-hmm. So this whole plan that we're going to move in with my parents to pay off debt has backfired spectacularly.

Oh, yes. And has he been a part of acquiring the additional 36 grand in debt? Yes. Oh, he was on board for that?

What did he go into debt for?

So he's an avid hobbyist when it comes to- Toys? Yeah, when it comes to his guns and his bows and we needed to get a new truck.

So he's going to lose his toys if you guys go rent somewhere, he's going to lose the lifestyle he's created for himself.

That's it. He's afraid of that. That's what's going on. He's a child.

But honestly, you've been an accomplice to these crimes. Absolutely. So you've allowed it to happen. This is not like, Well, it's all on him. You both have been very lackadaisical in this process, making zero progress. Here's the thing. It has stunted you all's growth financially and relationally. Moving out is not to punish him. It's to go, I married you to leave and cleave, not to move back in with my parents while we continually go into debt while you're telling me this is better for us financially. You need to have a serious conversation sharing your feelings because sharing the numbers ain't working. And use I statements. You do this and just say, Here's how I'm feeling based on everything that's been happening.

What was that reaction? When George said what you needed to do, and by the way, George is right, you did the... It was a little exhale giggle. It was an exhale giggle combo. What was making you... What's going on there?

Because- There it is.

Every time we have that It's a conversation that gets turned around on me.

Rather than collectively taking the blame for this, because it's not just me. That's right. It's not just him. It's both of us.

Yeah, he deflects.

It gets deflected back on me. It's my problem, and it's my job to fix it.

I wish we could get him on the phone right now.

You're going to need some counseling, some marriage counseling.

I actually think that's the case. I think, how would you How would you rate your marriage right now on a scale of 1-10? One being suck, 10 being amazing.

Probably like a 5. 5.

What would he rate it?

It depends on the day. Probably a little bit higher, maybe like a seven.

Yeah. So we're both in denial. Okay, that's good. We're on the same page on one thing at least. Yeah.

Do you think he cares about your marriage?

No, absolutely, yes.

Okay.

No, absolutely.

What? Yeah, that threw me because, boy, you said- Absolutely, yes.

He cares. Absolutely, yes. Okay, in what way does he care? Yeah, as far as actions go.

As far as actions? Yeah. I mean, we have a very open and honest relationship in terms of, obviously, we love each other and we love our kids. And we're on the same page in terms of we're willing to do whatever it Whatever it takes to make it work.

Except rent and look at a budget and stop buying toys and going to that.

You see how absurd?

Other finances. Other than that, crushing it.

So the reason that we're poking around on this issue is because is he going to respond when you say, Hey, this is not good. We've got to go see a therapist and we've got to get on the same page with this. We can't be on the same page about everything else and not on the same page about money. I'm dying here. I don't want to live with my parents. Every time I bring it up It's not just like I don't want to live with them.

It's more like my parents deserve to not have us be here.

You deserve not to be with your parents.

Don't put it on your parents.

You're still clouded a little bit.

You know what I'd say? Hey, I got a place to rent. You're welcome to join me. You're ready to be an adult.

How old are you two?

33.

If you watched a movie about a 33-year-old couple who'd been living with the wife's parents for four years, it'd be a comedy.

Jesus saved the world by the time he was 33. You guys can go rent an apartment. You'll be okay. Wow.

You can't drop the deity card on her. Who can live up to that?

It's called the Jesus Juke, Ken. It works every time.

Wow, that heated up quickly. Got to have to get George and Alka Seltzer.

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Today's question comes from Liam in Washington. Says, I'm 39 years old and I own 26 cars that I rent out on Turo. About 60% of them are paid off, but I have about $200,000 worth of business car debt. I understand your view of debt, but my cars are generating income for me. A car that I have a loan on cost me 300 to 400 bucks a month, but I'm generating 900 to 1,000 bucks per month on that car. Is it still a good idea to pay off all my car loans and have my business operating debt-free? I am balancing between paying off my cars, saving for my company reserves, and paying myself each month. Is this the right way to manage my business?

I feel like we have a young Dave Ramsey, except it's cars instead of houses. Instead of real estate.

Instead of houses. That's exactly what this is. But here's the problem. The houses at least keep their value and appreciate.

These cars are going down in value. It scares me to death.

My fear is, he goes, I have $200,000 worth of business car debt. Guess what? The cars might only be worth $100,000 at this point. Completely. As they get destroyed by the people renting them out. That's right.

That is correct. Oh, yikes. Not a good idea.

You're saying, is it the right way to manage my business? From an entree leadership standpoint, the way that Dave Ramsey teaches business You're trying to pay down debt. You're saving for company reserves. You're trying to pay yourself each month. Yes, all of those things must happen. You got to have the money to do the maintenance and repairs and oil changes and new tires. You got to be paying down the cars, and you have to eat. What I would be doing is paying myself as little as I can to survive, throwing as much to the debt as I can while keeping up a sinking fund for the repairs. Personally, what I would do in your shoes, I would liquidate all the cars that I'm not underwater on to do this slower. If that reduces some income temporarily, that's fine because you're going to get your butt handed to you when you're stuck with a bunch of cars that you're underwater on and the income dries up. All of a sudden you're going, Dude, I have 26 cars, and they're getting repoed left and right.

I'd be unloading those cars. Man, some stuff, George, looks so good on paper.

Well, I've seen the TikToks where they go, okay, so if you don't know, Touro is actually a great app where you can rent someone's car. I've used it, by the way. So instead of going to a rental car company, Ken Coleman has a great car.

Say, I want to get a Jeep for the day.

You can go on the app and rent a Jeep, and you can do it with a debit card, which I love. No hassle.

I like the Touro.

But people who are using it as a business opportunity, I've heard the horror stories, and I'm scared Liam is next up. So if you're If I were going to do this, I would be very cautious and only do it with cash so that you're never underwater and not going into debt, because any business that is run with debt is at risk. If you do it with cash, it just reduces your risk and increases your peace and hopefully allows you to survive and grow. That's our take. I can't go back in time, but I would offload as many cars as I can and do this the right way.

So good, George. I can't add anything to that. We nailed it. I won't. Trinity is up in Columbus, Ohio. Trinity, how can we help?

Hi. It's great to speak to you guys.

Good to speak with you. What's going on?

I am 24 going on, 25 years old, and I have no debt. I've paid it all off for college.

Way to go. And working.

Thank you. I'm really proud of it. You should be. And I've come across a huge income increase this year. Nice. From what to what? And I'm trying to navigate from 36K to 75K.

Trinity Let's go. Don't just roll by that. We got to celebrate that. Way to go, girl. That's fantastic. Thank you. Tell us, just so we have context, what did you go from what to what? Not an income, but what was the position? What world are you in?

Yes. So I'm in the world of marketing and digital content creation. Good for you. So I started at a news station, straight out of college.

They don't pay anything. They basically pay pebbles and sand. No.

Exactly. But I knew that if I did my time there, I would have so many opportunities going forward.

Good for you.

So I went from doing almost two years there to a corporate social media strategist position, where my income increased 55K. Then I just launched a social media freelance business to add an extra $1,000 a month.

Come on, Trinity.

Just with one client right now. Come on. Then I got approached, poached, essentially, from that position. We recently to be the social media person for a CEO who is a multimillionaire here in Columbus in his sales company.

Nice. Way to go. Okay, so I guess you're calling to ask us how to invest all this new Am I right or we got something else?

Well, actually, it's more about because I have all of this, I do have a financial advisor who's helping me with the investment portfolio, but I want to be smart, and I don't want to get myself into debt that's not necessary, but I want to travel the world so bad. I wanted to. Ever since I was little, I have my passport, never been out of the country. I do have a plan to save up money for travel, but is a travel credit card worth it, or am I just going to put into a bad situation?

What are your thoughts? Let me just repeat what you said to yourself. I don't want to go in. Now, you did say, now that I remember, you said, I don't want to go into any unnecessary debt. So all of a sudden, you're calling us going, I really want to travel the world. It might be necessary for me to get a credit card so I can get them travel miles. Is that what I'm guessing this is about?

Yeah, because that's what everybody tells you, right? I know. Like my J. P. Morgan, advisor and everybody.

Have you met everybody? They're broke.

What if everybody told you it was great to sniff glue? Would you have done that?

No. All right. Let me tell you what I've heard and what you probably are about to say. I pay my balance off every month. I've never paid a dime in interest, and I fly for free. Have you heard those things?

Yeah. And that's your plan?

And that's your game plan. It's like, Well, I'm not going to go into debt. I'm not going to carry a balance. I'll just pay off the statement every month and I'll accumulate all these travel miles. I got 100,000 miles that me to Ankeny, Iowa. I don't know where these miles actually get you. Ankeny, Iowa? That's where people want to go these days.

I love that reference. I love that reference. I didn't even know that existed. I like to go with Sheboygan.

I think the people of Ankeny deserve some shout-out.

I think they don't get enough love. George, tell Trinity why this is a bad idea, because it makes a lot of sense on paper.

Tell us about this travel card. What is so alluring about it?

It's this I have an idea that you could get basically those discounts because I'm always one to thrift instead of go to the- You are talking to Captain Thrifty.

Can you tell them thrifting? Yeah, tell us what card it is. Tell us what card it is.

It would be the Sapphire card with Chase.

Chase Sapphire Reserve. Oh. Costs $800 a year. Wow. And you get an Uber credit and fine dining credit. So things that are entertainment and luxury versus necessity. I've seen all the- You know. I've seen that the people have sent me these videos. So it's going to cost you $800 a year. So you at least, just to break even on the card, with all the fees that they're charging, you have to at least make $800 in rewards. Oh, the fine print. Now you got to spend enough to get the miles, which are not actual travel miles. It's not like you're going 100 miles and you need 100 miles. It's this random number they make up, which they can devalue at any time. Be gentle, George. Right? I'm making sure I understand it. You tell me if it's not correct. So is it like a dollar gets you a mile, or what's the trade-off?

About that, essentially.

Okay, so let's say 50 grand- And so my financial advisor. Yeah. 50 grand gets you 50,000 miles?

Thereabouts, yeah. I think it might be one or one and a half times, but yeah, right on the money.

Okay, so that essentially gets you... Would that be like a round trip flight, maybe two?

Or hotel, yeah. Or a hotel.

Essentially. Okay. So if you actually looked at the value of that flight, if you had just booked it yourself, you went on Google flights and just found an affordable flight on a decent airline, could you find one that's 700 bucks total round trip?

Might be hard if I'm going out of the country.

If you're going out of the country, you need a million miles. That's not impossible. What I'm trying to get at is it is not worth playing this game when you are already so successful. Only broke people have to play this game to try to make videos about how they travel for free.

George, how do you travel the world without a miles credit card?

I just use a debit card, and there's rewards programs that they have.

Oh, yeah, but how do you accumulate the money to travel? How do you do that?

Just work, I guess. I just show up at work and they pay me. I encourage you to try that. Just do a budget, have a travel fund, make it a thousand bucks a month if you want, and then book your travel at the best price you can find instead of being stuck with what the credit card companies allow you to book.

You're Captain Thrifty.

I am Captain Thrifty. Thank you for that. I'll take that honor.

All right, when you are tackling debt or trying to build wealth, one of the things we can tend to do is forget about one important step to reaching those goals, and that's insurance, coverage, protection, right? Sometimes you have too little, Sometimes too much. And either one of those can impact your goals, your progress. Skimping on insurance might seem like you're saving a buck or two, but when life actually hits you, you don't want to fall back into debt or at least be tempted to do so. So the right insurance, think of it as a shield around your family and your bank account. So how do you know if you have the right coverage? We've got the answer. It's called the Coverage Checkup. It's a free online resource. It creates a personalized insurance action plan that's unique to you and your situation. Go to ramsey solutions. Com/checkup, ramsey solutions. Com/checkup, and you can take the checkup, or you can click the link in the description of our show notes if you're listening on YouTube or podcast. Speaking of protecting yourself, Ken, this is big news I want to hit. We got some breaking news.

Well, it was a big data breach, and I want to give people some practical steps here. One of the nation's top three credit bureaus, TransUnion, exposed more than 4. 4 million Americans' personal info when a third-party vendor got hacked. So there's names, addresses, social security numbers. I'm not here to alarm you, but I want to give you some practical steps, and there are things that I have done. So first, freeze your credit with all three bureaus so that no one can open fake accounts in your name or go into debt using your name. Second, watch your bank accounts like a Hawk. If you see something that looks off, call your bank immediately. Lastly, get identity theft protection. It's not technically an insurance product, but it's something that gets paired right along with that to protect your wealth because this won't be the last breach. So head to ramsey solutions. Com/idtheft if you want to learn more and the folks that we trust, or click the link in the description if you're on YouTube or podcast.

Wow. It feels like we get more and more of those alerts.

It never stops. Evil never takes a day off. That's what I always say. I'm Batman.

Got to love those cyber security folks. Every day heroes. All right, let's go to Canada, and Andy is waiting for us. Andy, how can we help today?

Hi, guys. So my wife and I, about two years ago, started a chocolate shop, and the build cost way more than we expected. So the business took on about $150,000 of debt. And as a part of that, we have a profit this past year of about $99,000. And I'm trying to figure out how best to spend the money in terms of growing the business and paying off our debt. Debt service of that 99 is about 48,000. It's quite a bit. And then growing the business, which what we want to do is buy some chocolateeering equipment because right now we have nothing and it's all done by hand. And that's back-breaking. It's literally killing us, and I don't think we can keep it up for more than one more year.

You and your wife are making all the chocolate by hand?

That's correct. It's all by hand.

And did I hear you say- We have one other employee with us. Wow. And the profit, was it 99,000 in profit? Did I write that down right?

Yeah, that's correct.

Is that gross or net?

I I suppose that's gross.

So what are you guys paying yourselves?

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to get at here.

So we're getting about 60,000.

And that includes your employee, the one other person?

No, they're getting about 40.

Wow. So we're actually... If it's gross 99 and you're paying 100, you're not profitable.

Oh, sorry. I guess it's not. Okay.

So you're saying after you pay 62 your house- After paying our employees expenses.

So this is after all expenses, including the debt service, plus paying you, your wife, the one other person, then we have 99 left over.

That's right.

Is that sitting in a savings account right now?

So right now, we've spent most of that because we had a pretty rough year. Chocolate prices have increased like crazy. They've gone up to about 300 %. We're doing our best not to pass that on to customers.

Where's Where's that coming from? What's driving the cost of chocolate up 300 %? I'm curious.

Oh, it's a few things, really. So there's been crop failures in different parts of the world. There's been disease blights and stuff like that. Chocolate ever more popular. So there's supply and demand problems. And then with failing crops, people are looking at using disease resistant strains. Got you. And, yeah, those impact It's the quality of the chocolate we get, and we use the best in the world.

Okay, so 99,000. Do we have that sitting in an account? Because George asked you- You said you spent it. Then you said you spent it, but you started off the call saying, How do I spend that money? I want to be wise with it.

Well, this is the next year that's coming, projected. We've spent most of that. We have about $40,000 in the bank right now, and that's just sitting as cash. Some of it is going to be coming back to because our AC went out, and so we were closed for about a month, so our insurance is covering some of that. We're going to get around $30,000, $40,000 from that.

All right, let's talk about the equipment because there's a temptation to scale, obviously. I'm glad you guys are doing well. You're talking about the chocolate. Am I seeing this right? Chocolatiering equipment?

Yeah.

I'm going to go home and tell my wife today that I talked to a chocolatier. It makes me sound, I think, pretty fancy. What equipment do we- That's a pretty cool job. I got to say. I think so. What's the base amount? What's the smallest amount of equipment that you would need and it would help you generate more profit? Have you run the numbers on, We could spend this, and we could spend... You see what I'm saying? There's a temptation to go all in.

It's a little tricky. We can buy a couple of smaller items that would just help us out with some of the sages to make it a little less flavor-intensive. But the main steps to actually temper chocolate and have it on hand, each of those machines is between 20 and 60K, and we temper around 12 different types of chocolate. Okay, I get it. I can imagine the extent that would be.

I get it, and I don't know anything about the business, so please forgive my ignorance. But I'm trying to help you think through the impulse here, because the number one challenge of entrepreneurs is the impulse to grow, and you can really make a compelling case like you just did to George and I. Usually, they say, We could triple our profits if we got a $60,000 machine. But let's go to That first step before you went to, But we want to temper, all right? I'm so out of my league here. Okay, so what would that amount be? For that small amount of equipment that would help with manpower and less hours, which is good for you.

Probably around 70 grand.

I thought that was a small amount, so it's not a small amount.

You were saying you needed 12 of these machines that cost 20 to 60K. That's the ideal scenario.

Yeah, the ideal scenario is 12 machines that cost probably the 60K, and then a few other- But we're not there.

But you're not there.

Perfolious machines that cost 20 grand each.

What can you spend in the 10 to 15 grand? I'm making this up, but I'm also trying to help you think. What can you spend in the 10 to 15 grand range, 20 max. Max. I'm thinking 10 to 15 that would make your life easier.

There's one machine that we could get that's about in that price range. It doesn't temper. I don't care about that. That pipes the ganash and stuff into the chocolate, and that saves a few hours of labor.

Okay, so is that... We could cash flow that. We could pay cash for that, correct?

Yeah, that's right.

It would save time, and that would make life better. It's not like... You guys are doing well now. It's not like your customers are yelling for more tempering, and we'd like more machines. You're winning right now. Yes or no?

Yeah, I'd say we're doing really well. The business has been a huge success since we opened about 11 months ago, so it's going really well.

Andy, I guess what I'm preaching here is, is patience.

Yeah, I feel you.

You called us, and we're going to tell you not to into debt. We're going to tell you, I'm going to give it to George really quick. George, what does he do with that money that's coming in extra, those retained earnings?

You're going to have to figure out how to live on less and use all the profits you can, which you need to increase, by also increasing your costs. That's part of it. You need to explain to customers, Hey, chocolate went up. Coco beans are up 300%. We're trying our best to keep our prices down, but we had to increase by this much in order to stay in business. I'm the customer. I appreciate the honesty, I understand, and I'm willing to pay for your best chocolate in the world. Pay the debt off. But let's attack that debt, before we go scale this thing up with cash.

You guys are going to win big, but be patient. Pay the debt off.

Send us some chocolate if you could. That'd be nice. Please.

Chocolate turtle.

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm Ken Colman, George Campbell, alongside. Excited to be here for you all. Caroleyn is going to be up next in Atlanta, Georgia. Caroleyn, how can we help today?

Yeah. Hey, guys. How are you?

We're having too much fun, I think, today. How are you?

There you go. I'm doing well. Good. So my question is a little backstory. So I went through a divorce about three and a half years ago. I am 56 years old, and I basically had a start over. So nothing saved, retirement. There's a reason. So at any rate, I'm starting over. And I do have about 65,000 in investments, about 25 in a traditional IRA, And I do have $3,000 in a savings in the bank. So my question, and then I am contributing to my 401(k) at work, 6 %. So I've started doing that. My question is, the only debt I have is a car payment and my mortgage. I have absolutely no other debt. So I owe about a little over $20,000 on my car. And unfortunately, my father had passed away a couple of years ago, and I was left with a... Well, his IRA, which is now a beneficiary IRA. So I had eight years to withdraw that money. So I'm wondering, should I withdraw the money, start slowly withdrawing the money and put it in a Roth IRA to help me in retirement and keep picking away at paying off my car?

Or should I take a chunk out of that and pay my car off and be done with it?

What is your income?

My income, I bring in about 4,500 a month.

Net?

Yes, that's what's getting into my bank account. Coming home.

Okay, got you.

And that's after your 6% investing and taxes and health care, all that? Yes, sir. Okay. And what's in that beneficiary Okay. How much is left in there?

There's about 98,000.

Oh, sweet deal.

That is nice. That's good news.

To pay it off today, that still leaves you with like 80 grand in there. Right. And then you can use that. You're freeing up your car payment as well.

What's the car payment?

The car payment is 490.

Oh, my gosh. If you do it, do you hear what George just said? I think that flew right by you a little too quickly. Pay off the car today.

Okay. Because that's robbing your ability to invest.

I'm getting more interest. I was like, I'm getting more interest. So I just wasn't sure, but I'm like, I just want to be done with the debt.

Maybe. Well, here's the thing. We don't know what the market's going to do tomorrow, but we do know that paying off your car has a forced interest rate.

And a big raise.

Yes.

I would also withdraw enough to cover your savings account because right now you're one HVAC dying away from going into debt again.

I love that. What would three to six months... Would you, George, in her case, knowing her numbers, you want to see three, four, five, six or leave it up to her? You're the emergency five.

You're single now, and so that puts you more at risk than having two incomes. I would lean towards six, especially at your age.

I like that, too. I feel more comfortable with six. That was my goal, is to try and get up to six.

What is six months of your expenses?

Well, I mean, four times six, 24. I think I would be comfortable with 25,000 just to- So out of the 98- Luckily- Let's pull out 20. Okay, go ahead.

Just pull out 20 to pay off the car. Pull out another 25 to get your emergency from where? Really, 22, because you already have 3,000 in savings. And that will still leave you with 56K that you need to withdraw over the next eight years. And so I would withdraw that equal amount so that it runs out over time and move that over to that Roth IRA. Okay. Because now think about it, you were investing 6 % and you had a car payment. Now, with a fully funded emergency fund, no debt, we can jack up our investing to 15 % of your income.

Correct.

And now we can make up for some lost time. And once the house is paid off, you can invest even more. So what's left on the mortgage?

About 122.

Oh, amazing. For someone who had to start all over, Carole, I just want you to know we think you're sitting really pretty because don't make me get George to get his investment calculator out. I'll do it. Because you're 56 years young. It's the way I see it.

Well, thank you.

Yeah.

Imagine you put, let's say, 20K toward the house a year. Well, by the time you're 62, this house has paid off completely while you've been investing 15 % on top of what you have now.

Yeah, and I did just buy I had a house two years ago.

Okay, great. Well, you didn't buy too much house, it sounds like. Everything was very reasonable after you went through a lot of life.

I was. I mean, I just took what we made on the house when we sold it, and I put a lot chunked down. Nice.

What's your house worth on the market right now?

Five hundred.

Come on. Wait a minute. Fantastic. So now you're going to have a half a million dollar house. It's going to be worth more than that by the time you're 62. You're going to be in good shape. All right, George, what about her catching up on her investing?

That will happen over time. As you get rid of all this debt and pay off the mortgage, you'll go from that 15% to 25%, 30%, and hopefully your income goes up over time as well. I'm not worried about you catching up on all this, especially once you have a paid-for house. Your investments will double about every seven years based on what the market's been doing. If you have 100,000 invested now, which you're pretty close to that based on what you've laid out, if not more, then you'd have 200 if you did nothing. If you invested zero dollars more. Then seven years from there, you'd have a 400. You'll likely get close to that million dollar mark by the time you're 67 or 70.

Okay. I only have one kid on the payroll. I have one in college. But she graduates this year.

Come on, mama. That's a big deal. That's nice. That's another pay raise.

Yes, I'm hoping.

What do you mean hope? You get to determine that. Hey, fly.

Well, that's true. That's the hard thing. But yes, I've got two that are on their own, and I have one, the last one's a senior, so if I can get her off the payroll.

What is your gross income per year? What's your salary?

Well, I... Okay, one thing I did. So I just got a raise. I only make 53,000 a year. But I also have a... What is it called?

A side business?

What it's called. No.

Give us a clue. Give us a clue. This is fun.

I need to write it down. Where my dad had put an investment for charity, a charity trust, a charitable trust. And since he passed, His wife, my sister and we split his portion of it. So that's approximately 700 a month.

That adds to your income.

Correct. So that's where that 4,500. That's part of that income. Until it's gone. I mean, one day it will be gone. I don't know. I was just trying to crunch some numbers for you to give you some hope that you will catch up because you said you are 56?

Yeah. Okay. What age would you like to be able to retire?

Not soon enough.

You're ready.

Well, let's say- That's not a reality.

If you're catching up, you're going to, let's say, 68, 69, that'll still give you about 660 grand. If you're just investing 700 bucks a month consistently. Plus, remember, you're going to be investing even more once that house is paid off.

That doesn't include the paid for house, which is going to be worth over half a million.

You will be a baby steps millionaire, retiring with dignity if I have anything to do with it.

Keep it up. You haven't sworn love off, have you, the rest of your life?

No.

Go find you a- I'm not there. Go find you a debt-free man, and this picture gets even better.

It does. It will. One day, I hope.

It will. We believe. We believe.

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Hey, folks, buying or selling a house is a massive financial transaction, and you don't want to just do that willy-nilly without any expertise in your corner. The Ramsey Trusted program is the only way to find a top agent you can trust who help you make your home a blessing, not a burden. You can find a local Ramsey Trusted Real Estate Pro for free at ramseysolutions. Com/agent. That's ramseysolutions. Com/agent. Kaitlyn is up in North Carolina. Kaitlyn, how can we help?

Hi. I am 28. I have almost no debt. I have no credit card debt. I have six more payments left on my car. So that's about to be paid off. I bought I got land about two years ago. I have 60 grand on that, and that is the only debt that I'm in.

How much dirt?

It is 19 acres.

19 acres. Okay. You plan to build on that, live on that? What's the story?

Yes, I plan to pay it down. I'm not in a rush right now, so I'm throwing all the money at it, pay it off, and then get a loan and put a home on it. Okay.

What is your income?

I'm sorry, can you say that one more time?

What is your income?

I make about 80 grand a year. Okay.

All right.

Okay. Over time, I have built up an emergency savings, and I have about 45 grand in cash. I feel like I'm doing well financially at this point, but I don't really know how to spend that cash.

Where Well, when you say cash, is this in the bank or are we saying cash, like laying around somewhere?

No, it's in a gun safe. I started with an emergency fund, and then I just kept adding to it.

Why is it not in a savings account?

Because I've always been told I needed to have cash on hand and then some in the bank. That's how I grew up.

But now I've got- They just didn't tell you how much, so you just went overboard. Yes. Okay.

That helps. 45 grand in a gun safe. I mean, there's cash on hand, and I don't even know how you describe that.

Are there also guns in there?

I'm going to say yes.

Okay. Is It's just like a paranoia, Hey, if it all goes down, I'm going to be ready with a suitcase of cash in my gut. I'm trying to figure out where this is coming from, if it's from a place of legitimate fear, illegitimate fear, because I would be taking most of that and parking it in a a yield savings account. Yes. Because there is much more risk that your money is eaten away by inflation than there is of a bank collapsing.

Do you have a rule of thumb, George, on actual cash in your home?

Someone asked me this yesterday, and I said, Hey, I think $1,000 cash is plenty. That's what I was thinking. Now, if you have a good reason to have more than that, 2,000, 3,000, but 45,000, I think we could all agree, is a wild amount to have in cash at your house.

We should at least be burying that in the backyard, maybe.

We've taken that call. 120 grand buried in tin cans in the backyard. We actually took that call. The gentleman in Texas. I'll never forget it.

I'm joking, by the way, for anybody who doesn't entertain sarcasm, don't bury your money in the backyard.

But with a high-yield savings account, at least you're keeping up with inflation because $45,000 20 years from now, won't buy you $45,000 worth of goods. I would at least try to keep up with inflation in a high-yield savings account with, let's say, 40. Maybe you start there and you start to put a little bit more in over time. But there's really no good reason unless you can tell me why you need that much cash on hand at all times, because you can go to the bank and get a cashier's check today. You can transfer money. You got FDIC insurance in the bank. There are more protections you have in the bank than you do with a gun safe at home. It's your word against anyone else's that that money was there.

Okay. Yeah, I really don't have a good reason why it's there. I've just always heard, and have a safety net in both places.

What's left in the car loan? I'm sorry? What's the balance left on the car loan?

It's under three grand.

Oh, my gosh. Why don't you just go take three grand in cash and go down and pay off the loan? Why even stick with six more payments to deal with that?

Well, I figured it was helping me with my credit.

Oh, no. Okay, well, we'll get you a book for that. Why do you need credit at this point in the game?

In preparation to buy a house.

But you have a land loan that you're making payments on, right?

Yes.

That'll keep up your credit score just fine.

That's going to get you all you need.

Keeping the car loan is not going to do you any favors. I would get rid of it. It's one less thing living in your head rent-free. You're doing so well. There's really no reason to carry this. Then on top of that, you could be using some of this cash to even pay down the land loan.

Yeah, I don't think you need $45.

What are your monthly expenses right now to run everything in your house, pay all your bills?

Probably about $700.

You can live off $700 a month? Your land loan is more than that.

No, it's not. My land loan is only $520 a month.

Do you have utilities?

And that's part of it.

Food? Insurance? What's your rent? Phone? Internet?

I will say I am currently living with my boyfriend, and we have an agreement that if my name is not on the house or anything where I could get equity, if something were to happen, then I pay a bill. And so I don't have any expenses in there.

You're just living with the boyfriend rent-free?

Yes.

Well, how long is that supposed to last?

Well, Until he decides it's time to get married, and then I don't mind sharing some of the road.

How long have you all been living together?

About six months.

Okay.

How long have you guys been together as a couple?

Under a year.

Okay, this is very new. You just jumped on in. Yeah, hello. You said, Hey, rent-free.

I'll take- Why wouldn't she? This guy gave her such a deal.

It's hard to refuse that one. So you're paying for groceries and insurance and the land loan and a car payment. Your expenses are more than $700. Let's be honest. Even with him paying the rent.

Maybe eight.

Okay. I would keep an emergency fund of 15 grand.

Now I know this is his gun safe. You got your money in his gun That's his house you got that money parked on. That's my gun safe that I moved in. Oh, you moved your gun safe in? Why not? Boy, I tell you, you are in charge. You're not paying a nickel of rent until he puts a ring on it.

There's one reason to put it in a bank because right now it's on his property that he legally owns. I don't know. It makes me nervous. That's what I'm saying.

I got to tell you, the big brother roll, I'm very uncomfortable with this situation. You need... Yeah. First of all, let's get back to the thing It's most pertinent. You $45,000 needs to go in the bank, number one. Number two, George, what do we think? She's probably $1,000.

Pay off the car loan.

So $6,000 is six months emergency fund for you.

Yeah.

I would keep more because- But that ain't a real situation.

Yeah, if your life changes at all, if you break up- If he dumps you, you and your cash are moving out.

Or if you dump him. I feel like it's probably more of that than the other way around, right? Let's be honest. If anybody's dumping somebody, it's you dumping him. Isn't that We will see.

Does he have $45,000 saved? No, he does not. There we go.

Does this guy have debt?

Yes, he does.

Oh, boy. Does he know the code to the safe?

No. He has his own safe.

I have my own safe. His and hers. That's romantic. That's how we like it.

That's fine. All right.

We're cheering you on, Cam. We are. I would get rid of the debt. I would park the money in a high-yield savings, keep enough for an emergency fund. Any money beyond that now becomes, let's pay down this land loan while trying to save up for the house. I would probably just attack the land loan once that's done, then take out the loan and make sure it's no more than 25% of your take home pay. That would be the wise way to do it is that you don't buy too much house because you can get a little carried away with a land loan going, Well, the bank said, They'll give me $500,000 for a mortgage. It doesn't mean you should take that.

You didn't call for relationship advice, but It's your lucky day because I'm giving it. You've been together for a year, living together six months. If this guy doesn't show some type of desire to put a ring on it and start talking about marrying you, I wouldn't keep living with him. This will turn into two years and all this. It's just a weird situation.

When people move in together before marriage, it's, Well, we've been together for nine years now, and he still hasn't put a ring on it. Right.

I got news flash for you, ladies. He ain't going to. He's not going to. He's got a good situation without the commitment. I don't Make him commit. That's Uncle Ken for you. He's going to Uncle Ken. That's what he does. I'm going to do it. Hey, what's up? Dr. John Deloney here. The new dates have dropped for the money and marriage getaway over a Valentine's Day weekend in 2026. This is your chance to hit pause on everything in your life and reconnect with your spouse over a long weekend in Nashville, Tennessee. Me and my friend, Rachel Cruz, will be digging into topics like sex, money, communication, and more. This weekend is happening on February 12th through the 14th, and early bird prices start at $749 per couple, but the prices will be going up soon. Get your tickets today at ramsey solutions. Com/events. Hey, if you're enjoying the program, you can help us grow, and we are growing and we're so grateful. But hey, here's how you do it. Like, subscribe, and share, share, share. On whatever platform you're doing, that helps us grow. You guys are the greatest marketing program of all time. If it's helping you, we'd love for you to help us get in front of more people so we can help more people.

Haley is up right here in our backyard, Nashville, Tennessee. Haley, how can we help?

My question is, how do you break out of the working, essentially hustle cycle once you get to a place of comfort, I guess is the best way to say it.

That's a great question. Am I to understand, you've done the baby steps, you've won big time, and now it's like, how do I get out of that gazelle intensity and actually smell the coffee a bit?

Yeah, I can give you a little more background.

Yeah, give us a little bit.

I'm a single 30-year-old female. A couple of years ago, I started realizing that I needed to do more for my future to get ahead. I came to the conclusion that I needed to up my income. I moved jobs. The job where I'm at currently, my regular hours, I gross about 80K a year. But I have the ability to work lots of overtime. The last couple of years, I've been able to make between 200 It's 250K.

Come on. Way to go, Haley.

Yeah. Working, though, 90 to 100 hours a week.

Oh, you got to stop.

Seriously.

Yeah.

Have you stopped? Easier said than done. You've been at this pace for how long?

Probably about three years.

But that was to get through the baby steps?

Honestly, I didn't graduate with any student loan debt or anything. I really didn't have any debt. I just really wanted to pay off my house and build my retirement. Good for you. With the hope of being able to retire in the future sooner than '65 or whatever.

Tell us where you are. Did you pay the house off?

Yes, I've paid off my $300,000 house.

Way to go. How much you got in retirement?

I built up my investment accounts totaling around $250,000.

Fantastic.

I have a really good emergency fund. How much? I track, probably $60,000.

Yeah. This is screaming, there's another reason why you're working those hours. What is the real, real? Come on. You called us. No judgment. I don't I know. Yeah, you do.

I think there's just like, I grew up in a home where there was no money.

There we go. Come on. It's safe, Haley. You're safe here.

Yeah. So it's just A lot of anxiety with that.

Yeah, there it is. And that's okay. I think today's call might be a big step in the right direction, just to say it in front of a lot of people, say it to us, these two strange dudes. I I grew up in a home where there was nothing, and it was painful to watch. It wasn't just painful to watch for your parents. It probably was painful for you. And somewhere along the way, young Haley made a decision. You may not even remember. Maybe you do remember the day. But whether you remember doing it or not, you said, This is never going to be my life. It became a statement of conviction because it takes conviction. I mean, soul, deep passion to work 90 to 100 hours a week. Am I right, George? That's not grit. There's something deeper. You just shared it with us.

Well, at that point, you were running from trauma instead of running towards peace and freedom. I think it's time to make that shift to go, We're okay now. We're going to be fine. You're only 30 years old, and you are light years ahead of probably anybody in your family or even in your circles.

Okay, real fun. Real quick. I want George to do this. George is the master. George, would you pull up your investment calculator here?

This is fun.

She's got 200 grand in her retirement accounts or in her investment accounts at the age of 30. This may be a moot point, Haley, because part of me thinks you've run this exercise, but George- Oh, yeah.

She's like, I've done the math.

Halfway through, I realized, I forgot who I was talking to right now. Haley knows. You actually know, without putting him on the spot then, you know how much money that's going to turn into over the next 20, 30 years, yes?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Is that enough? No, no. Let me rephrase. Is it enough to never be in the situation that you saw your parents in?

I feel like yes, but then a part of me is like, Well, what if something happens? Okay, play that out. Then it just- What What would be that thing?

What would be a thing that would do that to you?

Do you think the stock market goes to zero?

I know, logically, that it doesn't because we've seen the returns.

It's- No, think about what that would mean. It would mean every company in America goes bankrupt.

At which point we have bigger problems than reliving childhood trauma.

That's probably when there's nobody alive but the cockroaches.

So what are we worried? We all have bigger problems at that point than, Well, I'm back to the situation that I grew up in. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Logically, I can understand that.

It's just like- It was real for you.

Yeah. It's hard because it's like they'll offer you the work. It's hard to say no because I know how much a value of one of those shifts is. It's hard to- What are the chances, Haley, that you do something bone-jarringly stupid with money?

What are the chances on a scale of zero to 100 that you would do something stupid with money?

Probably zero.

It's like, yeah. Negative zero. Have you sat with a professional to talk about all that trauma around money and probably a lot of other junk?

Probably not as much as I should have.

Can you? Yeah. Can I tell you something?

Mm-hmm.

I had danced around therapy, done a little bit here and there for years, and I was masking stuff, and I was literally trying to just hold it all in. And I finally got to a point over a year ago where I realized that I was turning into an angry person due to several factors. And I realized that I was unable to handle it. I couldn't manage it anymore. And it's really, really hard to admit that. But can I tell you? Because I want you to hear me that I think that you can get freedom from this. I really do. I actually think a professional will help you go back into the past, see it all from every angle, understand what happened to you. Out of that, you get the tools to be able to go, Oh, I won't be victim to this fear around money anymore, which will then allow me to live a normal life and work 40 hours and go on vacation and do something fun and give some of that money away. Because I'm talking to somebody who's got a huge heart. Do you hear that heart on her, George?

Absolutely. What I'm What's interesting, too, is you just got a flat tire. You are so good at saving and hoarding and investing, and we need to increase the spending. We need to increase the generosity, and it's going to unlock so much. I think take the pressure out of this like, Well, I could be saving that. I could be taking that shift. Instead, it's going to turn into, That'll be a fun experience. Let me invite some friends to that trip. I'll cover it. Hey, let me go give to this thing I'm passionate about. Let me go volunteer for fun in the free time instead of taking that extra shift. If you force yourself to do that with a budget, over time, you'll create those new habits and you'll drop the old ones and you'll drop the mentality of everything needs to be about a dollar amount and what it could be, what it could turn into. Have you heard of the fire movement?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. She probably carries a membership card.

Yeah, maybe intentionally or unintentionally. Here's what I found. They get there and the goalpost shifts. Instead of, Well, I have three million, but I don't know if it's enough. I think I need five now. Then 10 years from now, it goes, Well, I think I need 10 now because what if? The other thing that happens is when you stop working and doing something that you enjoy, it turns into boredom after the fun wears off. That boredom turns into depression, and then you're going to seek purpose for fulfillment. I would leapfrog all of that and just go to the seek purpose for fulfillment part.

And through relationship. Working 90 to 100 hours, you don't spend a lot of time with friends or anybody, do you?

Not tons.

Okay, I want you to answer this really quickly, okay? If I was paying for it and I said you get to take three or four girlfriends for a fun weekend, what would you do? Give me an answer.

Well, I am taking a trip. I'm going to Maine with my college roommate.

Okay, great. In a couple of weeks. My point is, that's your new homework assignment. One thing a month within a budget so that we... Until you get that therapy and start to learn how to not be afraid of money, I think you need to learn to do something fun, buy somebody's food in the drive-through behind you. Little acts of giving, little acts of fun that are very intentional, and you're going to feel safe doing it.

You invested in your 401k, time to in yourself, Haley. You got this.

Our scripture of the day comes from Jeremiah 26: 14. As for me, I am in your hands. Do with me whatever you think is good and right. Our quote today from George Bernard Shaw, Both optimists and pessimists contribute to society. The optimist invents the airplane. The pessimist The Parachute.

Oh, I like that.

So dare I say, overly simplistic philosophy there? I could pull that one apart. I'm not sure I completely agree with that quote.

Just let it be a tweet.

Well, I thought it was safe because he's no longer with us. He's not going to reach out to me on social media. I see the truth in what he's saying, but a little overly simplistic.

Ken is anti-pessimist. I'll tell you that much.

That is a fact. Don't like to hang out with pessimists. Dustin is in Nevada. Nevada, Nevada.

I know it's Nevada, but my heart says Nevada.

My brain says Nevada. I'm going to correct it to Nevada because I recently met somebody and they really poignantly told me, Ken, it's Nevada.

So there we go. It just sounds too Midwestern, and it's not in the Midwest. I feel like I'm screwing it up, too. From Nevada.

Yeah. Dustin, how can we help?

Hi. You're right. It is Nevada. You say that out here, you're bound to get stones. I know.

I caught a little heat from somebody here that came to our offices and told me, You're saying it all wrong, Ken. But it really damaged my ego for a while, but I got over it. How can we help you?

I've been listening to you guys' show for three months. It's been very eye-opening, and I'm eager to get on the debt-free bandwagon. Great. I do have a ways to go. So what's going on is that I'm contemplating selling my house and downsizing to pay off some of my debts. My parents are saying, Stay where you are, you won't be able to get another house like this, or, Build on our place. We got plenty of land, or, Buy a duplex.

All right, I'll tell you what. Why don't you run the numbers? Because we know what you're considering. Should I sell my house to pay off debt? Walk us through your debt.

I have a Credit card debt, which I've tackled, is $3,000. Let me see. Student loan debt, $20,000. Medical debt, it's been on the rise of $5,000. Let me see what else. My yearly income is 50,000. I do have a side hustle that I'm doing to pay off some of those debts.

How much does your side hustle generate?

Not that much, but I think about seven, $10,000 a year, maybe.

Okay.

Is that all the debt?

Yeah, that's all the debt.

And the income you gave us, That's not take home, that's gross? 50k. Is that gross or net, bringing home?

I would say that it's... Sorry, I feel so stupid.

No, it's After taxes or after taxes? I apologize. Yes, what are you bringing home? After taxes, what are you putting in the bank account?

After taxes, I think it's about 40.

Okay, got you. So 40K take home.

What's your mortgage and the What's your mortgage payment?

Mortgage payment is $1,623. The mortgage amount on the house is $196,000. What's it worth? I got it recently appraised. It's worth between 348 to 370.

All right, George, what do you think? What do you think, George?

Well, here's what's happening. Your mortgage is about almost half your take home pay, and so you're feeling the crunch.

Yeah, it's like 40 %.

So the question is always, is the mortgage the problem or is the debt the problem? And looking at this, you could clean up the debt and you might still be stressed out trying to make this mortgage payment every month. Exactly. So the question I have is, is there room for your income to grow in the foreseeable future?

And will you get married one day? She would require me to go back to school. Not again. No, I'm a single parent, so.

It's not in the picture.

No, I got hurt and burned pretty badly.

I'm so sorry about that.

Well, at least not while I'm raising my kid. My goal is to just raise my kid to 18, then I'll go back to the dating game.

How old are you?

Thirty-one.

How old is your kid?

He's eight years old. Okay. But he has autism, and so a lot of my time is blessed to- Is that why you feel somewhat limited on the income professional ladder question that George posed?

Because you immediately went to, No, I can't really make more money because I'd have to go back to school. I do want to lean into that for just a moment to see if that's in fact true or a limiting belief. What do you do for a living?

I'm a procurement specialist for an industrial supply company.

Okay. What does a move up the ladder look Are there a couple of rungs of a ladder above your position in your current company?

Next level would probably be like a supervisor, but all other positions would require me to relocate to the East Coast, and I can't do that.

I totally get that. What would it take to get to supervisor role, and how much would that pay?

It would require me to probably get a bachelor's degree in business.

I doubt that. I would challenge that. You should at least look into it.

You're probably right.

Here's my point, Dustin. The fact that you're... And listen, it sounded, even when I say that, I know sometimes I feel like, Well, that was a little bold, Ken. But I mean, you got to look into it. And when you go, I think it would require a bachelor's. I'm like, I don't know. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But you owe it to yourself and your child to look into it. Because where we are, if we've got a rung on the ladder that we can get to through good work and raising our hands saying, Hey, I'd like to do this, and it doesn't require additional schooling. Let's say it pays you an additional 15, 20, 30 grand. I mean, you owe it to yourself and your kid to look into it, yes?

Yeah, and I have. My company actually does offer a tuition reimbursement plan, and I thought, Yes, this is finally my ticket. I went to my parents with it and said, Hey, I can do this. If you can help me out with the childcare. I can get this knocked out in maybe four or five years, and me and my kiddo will be set. Their reaction was like, No, your child needs you. You can't go this route.

Okay. I hate that for you.

I feel like a deflated balloon. I'm sure that there's ways that I can reinflate myself. I just need to figure out what it is.

Well, for one thing, getting healthy because you've been hurt and there's nothing wrong with you. Somebody did a on your heart, and that's tough. You sound like that, by the way. I'm not picking on you. I actually feel for you. In this step here, it's like, okay, whatever it's going to take for you to get healthy, sitting down with a therapist and get some healing and overcoming that and beginning to see, oh, there's more opportunity than just the company you're at. I asked you to look into it. You're like, Well, you're probably right. But then I looked into this. There's still some uncertainty, and I think you've got to take control of your life and your situation. But I want to get back to the money thing real quick, George. Okay. Because we got about a minute with you, George, back to... Because I think you need to be looking for income. I know you're taking care of your boy, but you got to be looking for income growth.

I also think you're Just based on a quick search, I think you're underpaid for the role that you're in. I think it should be closer to 60 and 90. You might be looking for other roles. That might mean a local move. It doesn't mean to the East Coast. Maybe it's a different field, but you're still in the procurement world. I would be looking at that and see what can I do without needing to go back to school right now? Because right now, we need to clean up this debt at the very least and get an emergency fund. I don't think the house is a thing that's on fire right now, where you need to go sell it tomorrow. It's 1,600 bucks. You're going to pay You have to get a debt and rent in your area, I assume, correct?

Yeah, pretty much.

That's not going to solve a lot other than taking some equity to knock out the debt, which will knock out a few payments. But you can debt snowball your way out of this with a good side hustle and be out of debt. You got 28k in debt, You're making 60K. You could be done in 18 months. That's right.

We want you to stay in the house for now. I think that's good for you long term, but you got to increase your income.

That's the issue here. It's not the house. It's an income problem, and we're rooting for you, man.

Yeah, sorry, Dustin, but Again, part of this is you do what you got to do to be able to afford to sit with a good counselor, man, and get healing on the other side of this heartbreak. Then you'll be a different man, and life will be better, too. Thank you. Remember, there's only to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.