Transcript of Financial Chaos Doesn't Have to Define Your Future

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broken. Common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is The Ramsey Show. Rachel Cruze, number one bestselling author, Ramsey personality, co-host of Smart Money Happy Hour, My daughter is my co-host today. The phone number here is 888-825-5225. The call is free, and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Chris is with us in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Hey Chris, what's up?

Hi there, thanks for taking my call. My question is, is there some ways I can on my own prepare things financially to avoid as many complications should my husband pass away ahead of me? 'Cause he's pretty much kept me in the dark about a number of things, including financial specifics our whole married life.

Okay, so—

I'm sorry, how long have you been married?

46 years.

Oh my goodness.

And he's kept you in the dark purposefully 'cause you've asked to see things and he won't let you see it, or he's just, you don't ask and he just takes care of it and that's how it's always been in your marriage?

Well, it started out because we're family, it was a family business, a farm. And so with his parents, you know, and so I just, I'm not from, I'm from the city and I, you know, let them do their thing, right? And so, I was never put on anything like signing checks or anything from the beginning. And throughout these years, I just trusted him, 'cause I am not a financial, that's not, I have other, I have better things that I do better than this. And so, I just trusted him to do that. Well, we've lost a lot of friends lately, and our daughter is going through this right now. And I'm just like, well, and then he said something to somebody, and it's like, it just clicked. And when I asked him about it, crickets, he wouldn't tell me anything. And so, it's like, I started looking into things, and it's like, oh boy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he won't tell me, he'll just not say anything, or he'll tell me things that really aren't significant. Does that make sense?

Mm-hmm.

So, it's like, okay, what can I do? Because like, I don't want to go through like probate. I'm sorry if I'm going to lose it here. But I don't want to go through, you know, what can I do to make it simple? Because I've had friends who had it all done. They went through nothing, you know, the end is just like nothing ever happened. And it's like, okay, I'm finding out that this is not going to be fun. And I don't like not fun, and I like surprises.

Okay, so if you're looking for a way around dealing with your husband, there's not one.

Okay.

The only answer to your question is, is that he completely puts all the cards on the table face up and sits down and explains to you exactly where you are, and then you'll know where you are. And he's— and then you guys lay out a plan. If something happens to me, honey, this is what I want you to do here. So what I want you to do here, and you'll be taken care of, and you'll be fine here. And And if he won't do that, you're gonna have to hit him on top of the head with a 2x4.

Well, that's been in the works. I've been thinking about that. Yeah. It's just, yeah, I have tried and he just won't, you know, and I'm finding out that even like names on accounts, things that I didn't even know.

Yeah.

For example, he changed accounts, bank accounts to a new bank that had good interest rates. A couple years, and it's like I found out my name was not— went to put my name on it. Well, he has to prove it. Today, just getting kind of prepared for this, I went, he still hasn't done it, and that was over a year ago.

Yeah, okay.

So I have nothing. I have nothing. I don't know what to do.

The bottom line is, is you don't know what's going on, and you don't like what you do know. And so, um, it's time that the two of you get this stuff straightened out because you're going to be in a world of hurt. If he gets hit by the milk truck tomorrow, you know. And so you've been married 46 years. You do know how to get this man to do things. You just hadn't got him to do this thing.

Not very well, but yeah.

No, you hadn't got him to do this thing. And I've been married 43 years, and my wife manages to make it her idea my idea before I knew it was my idea. And so apparently, he's getting ready to come up with a brand new idea that he hadn't thought about yet. And so, and it's going to be that he owes his wife of 46 years 6 years clarity. He doesn't have to relinquish control of this stuff, because he's probably doing an okay job, but she needs to know what the flip's going on. And there's a tremendous— the air will change in your house when he does this, and it'll— peace versus electricity.

So, Chris, I'm curious, when you say you know nothing, do you know any information about any type of debt you all have, how much is in savings, how much you have in retirement? Do you have any concept of anything?

Well, so, um, he used to go away for a couple, a couple weeks a number of years back, and he said if anything happens, go to this person, this person, this person. Okay, that's fine. But I'm finding out now that my name isn't on anything, and I can't even— like, if I call the bank, you can't have any information because your name isn't on it. We are debt-free. We have no debts as far as I'm aware of, and I don't think we do. And, and And so as far as that goes, and you know, I found one thing that did have my name on it, so you know, I'm like, I won't be totally destitute. And one of the things, 'cause I always have to ask him for money, like every month.

Okay, you need to stop it and decide what your ask is. You know, you just went off again on your name not being on things. I don't know if your name needs to be on them or not, probably does, but your main ask is not that at all. It's, I need to know exactly in detail what the plan is.

And I need a say, but also having a say is having your name on your checking account, Chris. I mean, that's a basic thing.

And then, okay, if you die, then it looks like to me, the second thing is, once you know what's going on and every detail, then the second thing is, I need to add my name to these things, so if you die, I'm not penniless.

Yeah, and we're gonna take a Saturday and hit each bank, and we're both gonna go down together with the correct documents, "and we're gonna do this." Yeah, and we're gonna change it today.

We're getting in the truck and we're driving down there and you are not leaving until you do this.

And the third thing, Chris, is that you now don't have the excuse anymore of, "I'm just not good at this money thing." That changes today, that you're gonna have to not only learn, and it's basic stuff, I think you are very capable of learning, but you have as much say into your money and your household as he does. He doesn't need to be giving you money every month, like, right? I mean, you guys need a budget together. You need your own line item. And you have as much say in what goes on in the finances in your household as he does. Now, I know these are big changes to make, almost being 50 years married.

That's step 3. That's step 3.

Yeah.

You know, and so, you know, the first thing is, we're gonna get clarity on exactly what you want to have happen, honey.

"if you die Friday, because if we don't do the second step, you may die Friday." "I might take you out with a 2x4." "So, we really need to get this clear." And Chris, you guys, it sounds like, 'cause you dropped this in the middle of everything, it was something that, "We're losing friends, and our daughter's going through this." There seems to be a lot of chaos happening around you.

There's death, death, death around you.

And yeah.

And so you just bring that up.

It's raising to the top and part of that fear. And he needs to hear that from you.

People are dropping dead around us and it's making me scared that I don't know what the fuck's going on.

Oh, is that what she meant?

Losing friends?

Oh, I thought— I thought, okay.

No, they're not losing. They're losing friends because they're dying.

Sorry, Chris.

They've been married 46 years. These are—

I was thinking like friendships.

I was like, oh no, they're friendships. That's how I lose friends now. I don't lose friends because they're mad at me. I lose them because they go to heaven.

That era.

No, they're not mad.

Oh, man.

They just went to Jesus.

Fair, very fair.

Yeah, use that and just say, "Honey, that scares me and I'm not okay with this. I'm not okay. I'm not okay with the situation and we're gonna change it. And you're not gonna sleep until we change it 'cause I'm gonna keep you up." Hey guys, George Campbell here.

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Sam is in Los Angeles. Hi Sam, how are you?

Hey Dave, long time listener. How you doing?

Better than I deserve. What's up in your world?

All right, so let's see here. I'm going to try to wrap it up real quick, but first time in my life I feel very scared and nervous with what's going on in my situation.

Hmm.

Um, I have a total of about a little bit over $130,000 in debt, um, car loans, credit card, personal loans. I am a homeowner. Um, right now I pay about $5,000 a month, not including property insurance or taxes. I'm behind on my property taxes. I'm behind in my 2020 '25 taxes. I'm starting to get served for, um, my credit card debt. I have 3 kids, been married about 20 years, separated, renting right now, not living in my own home, and I'm getting ready to file for divorce. Um, so just need some guidance, help.

Has your income changed?

My income has been increasing.

So why are the bills unpaid if you were making them before and now you're not, why?

Because we, you know, I didn't follow the rules and guidelines for you. We did some remodeling in which, in the home, which was not a good move. My debt went way sky high. Our kids are in private school. That was an added cost as well.

And— What do you make?

Uh, $200,000 gross, $240,000 a year. Mm-hmm.

Does your wife work outside the home?

Um, she just started working. She makes about $1,600 a month.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Wow. Um, Okay, well, the way you eat an elephant is a bite at a time. And so there's a whole lot of moving parts here, and it's real easy with that many mosquitoes flying around your head to point at the wrong one. So we need to sit down and say, okay, what is the first priority with my money? I have $240,000 to work with. I'm going to buy food for me and my kids. That's first priority. Okay, that's done. We're gonna keep the lights on and the water going at both locations. Okay, we can do that. Alright, and we're just gonna go down the list like that until we start running out of money. And if it's forced ranked, the things at the bottom of the list when we run out of money are the least important things, like the credit card debt. They can jump in a creek right now. If you can't pay something, they're a good one to not pay.

Mm-hmm.

They bark and foam at the mouth and roll around the floor, but they don't really do anything other than mess up your credit. Okay, you got cars you can't afford, I'm guessing?

Yes, so I do have a plan for a car. There's one that I'm going to sell. I owe $13,000 on it. I do believe I could sell it for about $10,000, which I'll have to put out.

Yeah, just get rid of that. All right, and so what is she driving and what are you driving?

I'm driving now a truck that's been paid off for. Mm-hmm.

What about her?

She is driving the vehicle that we owe $21,000 right now on that.

Okay, why not the $13,000 and sell the $21,000?

Yeah, that is an option.

She makes $1,600. After the divorce, she's not gonna be able to afford to keep a $21,000 car.

Yeah, you're right.

Okay. And you're not gonna be able to afford to keep this house either.

No, I've already had that discussion with her.

Yeah. So the house needs to be on the market. The $21,000 car needs to be on the market. If the divorce is really going through, if there's no chance of reconciliation, is there?

We've gone through counseling and you know, the financial aspect of it has a lot to do with it. I've broken down, showed her all our debt, what we make, what I make. And she's just unwilling to look at it, to face reality. And I'm just done with it, unfortunately, after so many years. Mm.

Gosh, Sam. Yeah. Well, if that is gonna be happening, then also all the— you said you were behind, 'cause that's gonna be part of the prioritization list that you make is getting current on what you can. And so, You're behind, you said you named off a couple of things that you're behind, property tax.

Yeah, which you don't have to worry about if you're selling the house. I assume the house has equity, right?

Just pay it with the equity when it sells.

About $350,000 in equity.

Okay.

And she's gonna get a big chunk of that and go start her new life. And you're gonna get a small chunk of that and start your new life with your big income. And she's gonna get a big chunk of your income called alimony and child support.

Mm-hmm.

And so, you know, this is how, you know, a divorce turns a marriage into a business transaction. What do we keep and who pays for what? And that's the questions. And, you know, so the reality is, in the mediation and the discussion between the two attorneys, we've got to get the house on the market and we got to get that car sold. And, you know, out of the— or she's got to pay it off out of the proceeds of the— her portion of the proceeds of the house and keep the car. She could do that. If you're going to sell the house, she's going to get enough money to pay off the car if she wants to keep that car. I wouldn't recommend it, but if that's what she wants to do, that's fine. And then sell the $13,000 car. You know, which one you want to keep, honey? Because we're going to sell one of them and you're going to pay off the other one with your portion of the house proceeds when it sells. So which one do you want? And get the other one sold, right? And you know, your portion of the equity will probably clean up almost all these bills if you sell those cars, if you pay off the cars and/or sell the cars.

So what, so $13,000 and $21,000, so $34,000. What's the other $100,000 in debt? Taxes? How much you owe the IRS? $1,000.

I owe $12,000 for the property taxes and about, I'm calculating $10,000 for my 2025 taxes that I haven't done yet.

So an additional $10,000 in—

Why have you not done your '25 taxes yet? This is June.

Yeah, no, it's a lot of stuff's going in my mind and I just didn't make it a priority.

Yeah, not filing is a bigger penalty than not paying. So figure out what they are, even if you don't pay them, and get that filed. And see, all these things start to relieve your brain. Your brain is overwhelmed by 93 things swimming around at one time. And if we just start setting them to the side one at a time, one at a time, one at a time, that's what I meant by eating an elephant a bite at a time, then you go, "Okay, I'm gonna file the taxes. I'm gonna pay 'em later." I may have to pay them out of the proceeds of the house. I may have to pay them out of what income I have left after child support and alimony. And then you've got a pile of credit card debt too, don't you?

Yes. Yes, I do. Okay.

Over $50,000.

Yeah.

What was that on, Sam? Was that her racking it up?

You know, yeah, there was some remodeling that I had to put on.

Oh, you put that on the credit cards. Okay.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah, well, you're gonna, again, proceeds from the sale of the house. What I'm doing if I'm your attorneys is I'm looking at $300,000 coming out of the house. I've got to clear $130,000, give or take selling a $13,000 or $21,000 car. And then we're going to split up the rest of it. She's going to get most of it. You probably got a 401(k). 401(k). You're going to try to protect and give her the most of the house money. But $130,000 needs to be paid off out of the sale of the house. House needs to get sold as soon as possible before you get behind on it. That's what's hard.

That's, you know, to I mean, a lot of the stuff that can take—

Yeah, but it's put it on, you know—

Take off.

Again, the leaving things in limbo, waiting, dragging things out 6 months, having too many discussions about stuff. If it is over, it's over. If it's not over, it's not over. It's 2 different sets of decisions. And so, you cannot drag this out. That will kill you guys, both of you. It's gonna take both of you out. And so, you're gonna end up losing the house or something silly like that.

Right, that's what I was thinking is like—

So, stay—

I don't know, would you get current on stuff and see if you make it?

I would get current on that house and stay current on that house, 'cause it cleans up the rest of the debt when it sells. And then you're gonna need to get the divorce mediation to begin between the two attorneys and get that house on the market as soon as possible. And then you've gotta work through, you're gonna end up paying your taxes and figure out what you're doing with these different things. Again, break it down one thing at a time, and then it's not as overwhelming. Force rank these things.

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Laurie is in Los Angeles. Hi, Laurie, how are you?

I'm good, thank you.

Good, what's up?

I'm 63 years old. I have no savings. "Um, I have a home with about $225 equity in it. I'm wondering if it might be an option to sell my home, purchase a mobile home with cash, um, taking the rest of the money and investing it for retirement." You ever seen a 25-year-old mobile home? A 25-year-old one? Actually, I have. Yeah, I've been looking at them lately.

Uh, it's not where I want to live when I'm 85.

25-year-olds are not—

Not where I want to live when I'm 85.

Nice ones.

No, but they go down in value and they rust.

I didn't think about the rust. Yeah, in California, actually, honestly, they are going up just because—

No, they're not. They might be sitting on dirt that's going up, but the mobile home is not going up.

Oh, that could be.

Gotcha. Dirt goes up. Mobile homes don't, they go down.

Yeah.

Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Are you working?

I am working full-time.

What do you make?

I've been at my job over 30 years. I make about $48,000 a year. I live, or my son who has epilepsy, his wife and daughter, or yeah, his wife and my granddaughter live with me. So I'm a family of four. So I look at the choices I've made and I feel pretty silly and I realize I can't sit in Philly. I gotta make some type of a plan here.

So the wife does not work?

Not yet. She may be— she's gonna have surgery next month, so we're waiting for after that. She's had quite— she's not been well. Unfortunately, she's had—

And your husband's, or your son's epilepsy problem?

I'm not married.

No, I'm sorry, your son, I misspoke. Your son has epilepsy.

Yes, he has had this for 10 years and literally in February with his 7th neurologist finally got diagnosed. So this neurologist is working to be able to get him a permanent disability status so that—

How much will that bring in, do you know?

Per month. You know, I, I don't, because he has worked very little. He's been unable to work for 10 years and he's coming up on 40. Um, so I'm not sure exactly how much he might be entitled to.

Wow.

I have $20,000 in retirement and $10,000 in credit card debt.

What do you do for a living?

I'm an office manager for an air conditioning contractor. I have severe arthritis, so I'm struggling to stay working full-time, but being there so long, it's a small family business, and I'm appreciative they understand my time off. And I'm still— I just ask God every day, "Keep me an asset to business." And so far, so good. Again, I'm 63. You know, I'd really love to be able to retire by 65, but there's got to be a plan. And I, I'm late to the party. I am late to the party.

Okay. Well, you got a lot on your plate, kiddo. I'm sorry. But a mobile home doesn't fix the problem. It treats the symptom.

Yeah, I get that. Okay.

The symptom is the strain. The problem is income in the household.

I believe it.

And, you know, as a ratio, and $48,000, and you've got these other 3 folk you're looking after right now, and you're doing that on $50,000 a year in Los Angeles, that's tough. That's a tough number right there.

Yeah.

There's not a lot of room. You guys aren't— you guys aren't— haven't got a lot of wiggle room in this. So, yeah, you're— sadly, you're gonna be working, and so is she, and so is he. As soon as all of you can, because you don't really have a choice.

Mm-hmm.

You're going to have to bring some in. I know. I know. You're gonna have to bring some income into this house. Now, what I might do at some point would be to leave Los Angeles and sell a house and buy a much less expensive home in a much less expensive area of the country to try to make y'all's income go as far as it can go at that point.

I hadn't thought of that. Okay.

But I don't want you on a 25-year trajectory at 63 to 88 of declining values to add to your problems.

Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Okay, okay.

That's what I'm trying to help you avoid. But it doesn't fix the strain that you've got today to hold on to this house. What's owed on the home?

I owe $95,000, I think it is. I did have a realtor go and look at all the specs, and so she told me I should get about $225,000 out of it.

Oh, it's not $225,000 in equity, it's $225,000 in value.

No, no, I'm sorry. She said in my pocket I should get—

Oh, okay, okay, so it is. $225,000 selling on close. So it's a $325,000 house approximately.

Yeah.

Okay, all right, okay.

Lori, are you guys month to month okay?

Oh, pretty much.

'Cause you're living on your salary for all these people. You're able to stay current on everything?

Oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm blessed that I pay my bills absolutely. In fact, I just told them, we have a couple of streaming services, I said, "Okay, I'm cutting those off. We don't need the streaming stuff." Granted, it's only $11 a month, but I go, that's that, I can put $11 toward my credit. Card that's climbing the charts. So, you know, trying to— any little thing we can do, but they do get SNAP, which is like food stamps.

Yeah.

So, I don't have to pay. My daughter-in-law's grandmother lives in town. She just about provides everything for my granddaughter in the way of school clothes, supplies. You know, she helps, you know, with anything that the granddaughter might need. So, that's a big help. Um, but she's older than I am.

What's the nature of your daughter-in-law's health problems?

Uh, last year she had gallbladder out. The year before she had half a hysterectomy. The year before, the other half of the hysterectomy that was supposed to be full. Um, she had a horrible thyroid issue which causes her to hurt. On their anniversary, her, her, her, uh, gift is to sleep 48 hours straight. And the doctor's like, you, you, you're immune to—

What is the, uh, what is the operation she's getting ready to have?

Carpal tunnel on both hands. She has severe—

When can she be able to work? Do you know? Do you know what the recovery time is?

You know, I don't know what recovery time is. I'm thinking probably by the time school starts again in September.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I'm— well, so what I would love for you all to do is to have a plan, and it might even involve going ahead and moving now. To a less expensive area, but to have a plan to create income for this household.

Mm-hmm.

Anything you can do to get your income up and certainly maintain the income that you have, anything they can do to add income. His getting permanent disability is going to be social— it's going to be SSI coming in. There may be SSI available for the child in that situation too. And, you know, just be learning about all of those things and Anything he can do within the framework of permanent disability to still earn an income— there's a limit, but he can do some things— I want him to do it. Because if— this is not true. The trajectory of this is not good. It's not sustainable. So we've got to get some income coming into this house somewhere and/or get our outgo down. And that's what led you towards the getting rid of the house payment by getting the mobile home, I would leave LA before I did that and take my $235 and go to wherever cheap area of the country, name it, and that kind of thing. And, you know, but again, you guys have got, even then when you do that, you've gotta land a new job and each of them has to land an income.

And so it doesn't fix everything 'cause that $225 will go away real fast. 100%, yeah, for sure. You need to get cash out of this house. Yeah, do not buy something going down in value that doesn't solve your problem. So I see how you got there though. You're thinking, you're trying to find some options. Wow. You call us any way we can help in the future. We'll try to be more help, but that's what I'm seeing right now.

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Will is with us in Chattanooga. Hi, Will, how are you?

I'm great. Thanks for taking my call, Rachel and Dave. It's an honor to be on the phone with you. My wife and me are freaking out. We're huge fans of the show and your ministry. It's awesome to be with you.

Well, thank you.

How can we help? Yes, sir. My first, my first quick question is about tax loss harvesting or, or direct indexing. I'm assuming because I've been following what you teach since high school, you're not a fan because you don't recommend to buy single stocks, but my financial advisor is recommending inside of my non-qualified account that I'm starting to build to look into that.

Well, I'm not doing, you can do tax loss harvesting without doing single stocks. You can do that as a function of a mutual fund. And there's nothing wrong with that. Here's the first, the first thing is concentrate on making money with your investments. That's the first thing. And then while you're making money, is there a thing over here on the side that we can do some, some moving around inside a mutual fund into a tax loss harvesting strategy, yes. But that doesn't need— you don't need to lead with tax loss harvesting. You need to lead with make money.

With good funds. Yeah, with good funds. But within those.

And then you can, you know, so in other words, the only way tax losses occur in investing is if you lost money. You had a bad investment.

Or yeah, one of the stocks within the index or the mutual funds goes down and they can sell with like a like-kind stock and you get to write off the loss. And they do that all, which is, I mean, it's a great function. It's one that I was even just talking to you about. My husband and I moved some money into an account probably 2 years ago with this like new investment strategy within an index fund. But they, it can happen within it, which is great because you write off the loss.

Not doing single stocks to do it.

But no, not single stocks.

Let's not do that. And I don't want it to be the primary. The primary needs to be make money.

Yeah, and most all mutual funds, index funds, as we've seen the past couple years, have all gone up. I mean, you know, in value.

Ridiculously up.

But there may be a couple within there that you can use for that advantage, which is great. But yeah, no—

So the reason I'm being cautious in how I word this is the concept is fine. What scares me is that— financial goobers that are out there, the guys in the business, they love a math riddle. And they can go down the rabbit hole on their enjoyment of their nerding out on a math riddle and miss the point. And the point is, first, make money.

Right.

But don't— you know, but the shiny new math riddle is always around the corner. And all financial advisors just about can fall for that trap. I know because my brain works the same way. I love looking at a new math thing and I'm going, "Wow, that's kinda cool." But if it's for your advantage, then you're like, "Great, I'm pluggin' in." It can't be just because they got all excited about their little nerdiness, then that becomes the primary, and the primary is make money, okay? That's the primary. And then we can do math nerdiness and have some fun on the side and get to the advantage and do the tax harvesting. The concept in and of itself is— but it's number F, not A, B, C, D, or E. It's on down the list of things I'm worried about.

Of prioritization.

And of course you're out of debt, house and everything, before we talk about having a non-qualified account of that size. I assume your house is paid off, Will.

That's the only debt I have.

No, then you don't need to be talking about any of this. None of this should be on the table. You shouldn't have that kind of money in an unqualified account. It should be going on your stinking house. Remember? Remember that part when you said you followed our stuff? Baby step 6 is pay off the house.

Will, just ask me. No.

Yes, sir. Yeah.

Will, I hear you. You know what? I think, listen, yes, have your 401(k), 401(k), your Roths, do your 15% into your retirement.

And everything else goes on the house.

And pay off the house, yes, and then the investments above retirement. How much in your non-qualified accounts, Will?

It's about half of that to about, I have $85,000 invested. Half is in mine and my wife's Roth IRA and the other half's in non-qualified. We just purchased a house, I'm 22, and I've just been putting money in that before and I haven't taken it all out. That's crazy, you guys.

Well, you need to follow the baby step. 3 is an emergency fund of 3 to 6 months of expenses. 4 is 15% of your income going into qualified accounts. Roth and Roth with match are your first two things until you get to 15% of your income, and everything else goes for home, enjoyment, life, generosity, and paying down the house. And we pay off the house before we start talking about that. So no, I don't like your financial advisor anymore, because now he's got you paying, he's got you screwing around with $45,000. You paid $45,000 and you didn't like it? No money, $45,000, a tiny butt little account, and you're doing tax harvesting with this stinking— this nerding out on something you should be dealing with $450,000 before you're screwing with that. And so, no, you need to get your house paid off and—

Will called to learn what you think.

No, I know, but the shiny little nerd guy has got him a thing going on. No, I don't like him. No, not Will, I'm talking about his financial advisor. He should not be advising this. This is exactly what I was talking about.

Okay, go, go.

The guy gets, the financial guys get all, whooped up about something, and he's got a 22-year-old screwing around with $45,000 on this instead of paying off his house, 'cause he learned something in financial advisor class that he thought was cool.

There you go.

That's all.

Fair.

Yeah, that's what we don't wanna do.

Fair.

That's what we don't wanna do. So no, let's fast forward. Okay, Will, you're 28, your house is paid off, you've got $500,000 now in your qualifieds, and now you're in Baby Step 7, and you're starting to chunk some money away. And you've got $100,000 laying over here in a brokerage, and you're doing some index funds with it and some other stuff, then we can start talking about worrying, 10%, 20% worrying about tax harvesting, 80% worrying about making money.

There you go.

But now is not the time to do this. And this guy's, he's got, blah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to get to the bottom of it for a minute.

Just mad.

No, the people that I have been trained with my whole life, these financial people, I love 'em. Our SmartVestor Pros, you know, they do a great job. But the way our brains work in that is we just love a good math thing. And it's just shiny for us. And we wanna, and so it's the answer, you know, now we have a hammer, so everything's a nail. You know, and it's not.

It's a one-track mind at that point versus zooming out and looking at your entire financial picture and getting yourself in a place with priorities, like what you're saying.

Don't get enamored with the sophistication. Live on less than you make and save money.

There you go.

But when these people start getting enamored with something that's sophisticated, tax harvesting, tax loss harvesting, it just sounds very sophisticated. It's like, ah, geez. Don't get sidetracked with this stuff. That's when people lose their butt. They're chasing some kind of hack that's gonna make everything easy. What's easy is living on less than you make and investing the difference, and you'll be a millionaire. And that's not all directed at Will. It's mainly to— Will, you're doing a really good job.

Yeah, incredible, at 22.

And actually, you did call in, and to your defense, you said, "I don't think you're gonna go for this, Dave." But I didn't know why I wasn't gonna go for it until the end of the call.

He knew you better than you knew yourself.

No, I didn't. Well, 'cause he knew his numbers. He buried the— I didn't ask the numbers. Get to $45,000 until I was 6 minutes into this rant. But yeah, so guys, Will is gonna be a multimillionaire. Here's the rule he used: don't do something you don't understand, and that if it feels funny, it's 'cause it's funny.

And for his financial advisor to be talking about single stocks and tax harvesting with him—

After he's been listening to me since high school.

He's like, that feels weird. Yes, there you go. The flag went up.

And so, this is a very wise 22-year-old. Very wise. He had a— he recognized a few points that were off. He's trying to be cognizant. He's trying to be intentional.

And probably trying to learn what it takes.

He's trying to be on top of it. And then this guy comes in with this shiny penny that's a plug. Yeah, yeah, that's— yeah, so, he's gonna— because he's intentional, because he's trusting his feelings, he's checking the against what he knows to be true, all those kinds of things, he's gonna be a multimillionaire. He's gonna do great. Yep. He's gonna be amazing. But it won't be because he tax loss harvested on $45 grand, I can promise you that.

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. In the Fairwinds Credit Union studios. Michelle is in Provo, Utah. Hi, Michelle, how are you?

I'm great, thanks, Dave. Thanks, Rachel.

How can we help?

Thanks for all you do for everyone with all your advice. My husband got $38,000 of inheritance money last summer, and he didn't tell me about it, and he spent $20,000 on pornography with a little cyber affair, He came clean finally and told me about it. But he's going to be getting another $250,000 of inheritance money in a couple more years when his parents' home is sold. And he says that he is not going to be paying off my student loans when he gets that amount of money. So, I guess my question is, um, do you think that he should, uh, help me with my student loans with his inheritance money? And should I get divorced if he refuses to? Wow.

How long you been married?

Uh, we've been married for 12 years.

And—

Why are you more concerned about paying off your student loans than your husband having a porn problem? These are two different things that shouldn't even be in— like, porn problem, big deal. Inheritance, little problem.

Yeah, but him pinning her in a corner and them not feeling like being on the same team either.

Yeah, how about he's a jerk on two or three fronts? But, um, but I mean, I'd be a lot more concerned about the quality of your relationship with a guy that's treating you this way than I would whether or not you get access to his inheritance.

Yeah, I'm, I'm—

Are y'all in counseling?

Yeah, I talked him into counseling when he finally ran out of inheritance money to pay for porn. I think he might have used a few marital assets to pay for it, and then there was just nothing left to pay for it. So he finally kind of came to his senses and finally Agreed to go to counseling, but I guess it's just been, um, he just stopped the affair, um, about 2 months ago.

Okay. And how long have y'all been in counseling?

Um, about 3 months. I knew about the affair during the first month of counseling, but I didn't realize—

When you said affair, you meant with pornography?

Well, it was a specific person.

It was a cyber affair with a lady on OnlyFans. So I think he thought it was a real person, but I— he found out that it was— I mean, I've since then explained that it might just be a lady who sells her content, and he was chatting with her thinking he was having a real relationship.

But yeah, he basically built a relationship with this person.

Yeah, and sending her nude photos and things like that.

If you call OnlyFans a relationship, prostitution is not usually relationship, but yeah.

That's what it feels like to her. I mean, yeah, he's been freaking communicating with a woman. I mean, yeah, that is all in all. Yes, Michelle. So Michelle, at this point, I don't feel like you have had time and the work you guys have done to rebuild any level of trust. And I think the sting is he says, I'm gonna still withhold money from you. When I get it and I'm not taking care of you. I'm not taking care of you on an emotional front. I'm not taking care of you on a financial front. Like all of that to me is one problem and it's coming out multiple different ways. And you're getting that feeling of this doesn't feel right. None of this seems right. And it's all connected because it's all coming out of the root same issue, in my opinion. And you've not had time to rebuild the trust, Michelle. I mean, it's only been 2 months.

Well, there's no reason to rebuild the trust. He's still being a twerp. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, I mean, it was in the same conversation that he'd wasted all the money and then, you know, mentioned that he was not going to share the future inheritance with me.

What did your counselor say about that?

We've had a few different counselors.

No, I mean, you had a counselor lately. What's your latest counselor? You had this exact same discussion with them. What'd they say?

Um, well, the female counselor, she tends to side with the women, I'm guessing, but she—

No, I had a female marriage counselor that was not siding with any women. I can tell you that. She was siding with the truth and would get up in your grill regardless of your sex.

Yeah, well, her opinion was that The relationship was past repair. Okay.

Is that your last counselor?

We did see one— another counselor one time after that, but I guess—

You saw one counselor after that one time?

Yeah, we've seen 4 counselors in the past.

Why did you leave the other lady? Because she said she couldn't help you, it was messed up.

She just said that she would, she would get a divorce if her husband did that to her. And so I guess I just—

I told her— You're not at the end of your rope to that point, is what you're saying?

I could have continued with therapy, but it's just, it's been difficult because there's a lot of blaming the pornography on me and and things like that, and saying, you know, because I was miserable to be married to me, that I'm responsible for how he spent the money.

Yeah, I can fix that. If you're miserable being married to me, I can fix that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, he sounds like there's not a lot of remorse.

This guy has zero repentance, zero remorse. Rachel's right.

It's what it feels like.

Why? I mean, why would—

He should be—

What gives you hope that he's just gonna turn around? Why do you have hope?

Well, he said he was sorry. He cried a couple tears and gave me a plate of cookies.

And when was this? That was, um, before or after he was online with OnlyFans whore?

Well, I actually filed for divorce because he refused to show me the credit card statement. Oh, and I knew that I would get access to what he'd been hiding. He got really hostile when I asked about seeing the statement. It just popped in my head one day. I haven't been very good about checking where our money's been going, so I asked and he refused to give it to me. So I filed for divorce, and then a week later, knowing that I was going to find out anyway, he said he was sorry. He was good and he came clean. He told me everything, but it was, you know, kind of under pressure knowing that I was going to find out anyway very soon. So I'm not sure if he's genuinely—

No, he's not. No, he, he came clean because he got caught, not because he's begging, begging for your marriage to be healed, Michelle. Yeah, it's not looking good right now.

We're not professional counselors. We're just regular people sitting and listening to a lady whose heart is broken because her husband, his behavior is saying he's done. His mouth may say something else, but his behavior, as John Delony says, "Your behavior is a language." And every single bit of his behavior says he is not interested anymore. And that's really sad.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

I'm sorry. And I wish he would go to counseling with you and would be remorseful and repentant—

And would do his own work and—

—and turn from his wicked ways and become a good husband. But it doesn't sound like he's going to, based on what you told us. But don't make a decision based on calling a podcast, You make a decision sitting down with your pastor and prayerful, sitting with a therapist who loves you and knows what's going on in your life. Couple goobers on a microphone don't need to make your decision for you.

Mm-hmm.

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So what about investing at the next level? I mean, we talk about the 4 mutual funds to put your 401(k) 401(k) in and good 5 to 10 to 20-year track records when you're picking those inside your 401(k) 401(k) or your Roth IRA. But I mean, what about another level? When you get to Baby Step 7, what do you do? It can be really confusing. There's a lot of stuff to consider. So, we've done a 2-night virtual event 2 times. This is the 3rd time we're doing it. So we don't do it very often, in other words. And it gives you a simple strategy that you can feel confident in. It's Investing Essentials. It will be September 1st and 2nd. It is me and George Campbell. And I'm gonna unpack my personal playbook, what I do for investing and wealth planning. What I do with real estate, how I pick my real estate, what I do with my mutual funds, how I do that. And I wanna go through all the different categories and buckets of investing and some of them, why I don't do them. And explain to you clearly. And then you get to pick out what you want to do, but I'm going to show you what I have done to get the net worth that I have today.

And this year we've added a bunch of new content like getting out of taxes, reducing taxes, navigating the wills, and building a lasting legacy. We're going to get into the legacy piece a little deeper this year than we have before. People are always asking about this stuff, like, "How do I build wealth and not ruin my kids?" That kind of thing. Mm-hmm. And so tickets start at $199. It's my playbook. Me and George are gonna go through it. It's September 1st and 2nd. Get yours today. That goes on sale today, right? This is the first announcement right this second. Get yours today at RamseySolutions.com/events or click the link in the show notes if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. We'd love to have you. This is an online event. It's only the third time we've done it. And we're changing up some of the content. If you've been at one of the other two, you'll get some fresh content. So a lot of fun stuff. I like working on new stuff like that. Alex is in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Hey Alex, how are you?

I'm doing well, how about you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Yes, so my wife and I, we have some equity in our house, and our question would be, do we sell the house to take out the equity to pay off off debt.

Do you like your home?

Um, it's not my dream home.

That wasn't what I asked. I said, do you like your home? Is it a good house? Would you be selling it if you didn't have the debt problem?

No, I would not.

Okay, that's the bottom line. Okay, now how much debt do you have?

Roughly $135,000.

On what?

On student loans, credit cards.

How much student loans?

Student loans, my wife has about $28,000 and I got about $6,000.

Okay, what else? Um, I have— Credit card, credit card, Sean.

Oh, on credit cards, she owes $4,700.

That's it?

Okay. That's it.

How much on the cars?

Um, she owes $10,000 on her car, and we just bought a truck for $50,000.

Good God.

Well, I just— hold on. I love the 'she owes $10,000, but we owe $50,000 for the truck.' Her debt, her debt, but it's our debt for the truck.

She's got $4,732 on a credit card, but we bought a $50,000 Somewhere around $50,000 on a truck. That is pretty funny.

We owe $47,000 on the credit card.

Okay. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, that's fun, I love it. You're a good sport. All right, now, so $65,000, I'm still $100,000 short, I'm still a bunch short. Not $100,000 short, what else you missing?

Yes, sir, we have a home loan for roughly $33,000.

A home equity loan?

Yes, sir.

Okay, do you have a first mortgage as well?

I guess I don't know.

Okay, I mean, is that your only mortgage? You only owe $33,000 on your house?

No, sir. Oh, so our total debt would be, we owe $135,000 in consumer debt and my mortgage, I owe $169,000.

That's okay. All right, so $33,000 on a second mortgage on a home equity loan. I got you. All right, you said—

Yes, sir.

That's about it. Okay. And your household income is what?

Between $160,000 and $170,000.

Okay. And how long y'all been married?

Roughly 5 years.

Okay, cool.

A little less than 5 years.

That's kind of what it looks like in the numbers. It looks like you guys have been normal, and normal is we spend a little bit more than we make, and we see something we want, we buy it and put it on payments. And then you look up after 5 years and you went, "Oh crap, this is a mess." And that's normal. And that's what these numbers actually look like.

Mm-hmm.

They don't look like you've done anything extremely dumb with the possible exception of the truck. But the rest of it was your death by a thousand cuts. The only big one was the truck.

Yes, sir, what ended up, yes, and then the home loan, I got into a motorcycle accident, so I was put down for about 6 months, so we had to take out that second mortgage to stay afloat.

To live on? You didn't work for 6 months?

Yes, ma'am. Okay, wow.

Yes, sir.

Wow, okay. Well, cool, what do you do for a living?

I broke my femur. Right now, I did a career, I did a transition, so I'm in project management for general contracting. Good, good for you.

Okay. All right. And you got— you're not in the motorcycle business anymore.

That's gone, right? Yes, sir. I got rid of all that stuff.

Yeah, I bet.

Okay. Um, Alex, do you guys know— because you— we bring home what per month? Probably around $10,000.

Yes, it depends. So my wife's a hygienist, so she depends on if she's able to secure temp shifts. Or not. And then we opened up a small business. We own a little drink trailer selling dirty sodas, coffees, stuff like that. So her temp shifts have stopped and now she's focusing more on her side business. So it's roughly between $8,000 to $10,000.

Okay.

And then how much does it take to keep you guys afloat on bare basics? You know, like to pay the mortgage, keep the lights on, pay insurance, like do what you need to do.

Yeah, that number's egregious. It is a little less than $8,000.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, so you're not going to like the prescription that the doctor's gonna give you to fill out, okay, that you're gonna have to go to the drugstore and pick up, but I'm gonna give it to you, okay? 'Cause I love you and I want you to win. And are you guys in your early 20s?

Late 20s, we are 29.

Okay, yeah, 'cause I mean, you fit all the exact numbers. So this is where most people are, and it's not a fun place. Your budget's tight. You don't have a lot of wiggle room. You're not blowing a bunch of money. You're not going out every night. You're not going on lavish vacations. You don't have all that. And you're also not making $170,000 a year if you're only bringing home $8,000. So something's screwed up in your numbers. But you need to get into this and figure out—

Yeah, I'm screwed up.

What's really going on is you guys have just been sloppy And so, if I woke up in your shoes knowing what I know, I think you could be a millionaire in about 12 years from today. And here's what I would do. I would sell your truck immediately, and I would get on a detailed, written game plan budget on the EveryDollar app. And we're gonna give you a premium version of that to get you started and not charge you. I wanna get you in there, and the two of you sit down and figure out exactly how we are not making $170,000, because that's not $8,000 a month.

No, I mean, they're probably bringing home $10,000—

No, $8,000 a month's $100,000 a year. They don't have $70,000 worth of missing money.

No, he said $160,000.

$160,000.

And then they bring home around $8,000 a month.

Which is $100,000 a year. There's a $60,000 or $70,000 gap there.

Taxes.

That is not taxes on that. Not even close.

Where's he from?

New Mexico. It doesn't matter.

It does.

There's no taxes of that level in any state. There's no 50% taxes, okay? It wasn't 50%! Well, it's 40. Once you're 70—

It's around 30.

It's not gonna be. Nowhere near. Nowhere near. You ought to be coming home with about 15 or 14, right in there. And yes, you should. That's $144,000.

That equals $150,000 without taxes.

It's $144,000, and a $170,000 minus taxes is gonna be about $144,000.

Okay, okay, okay.

Run some numbers at the break. It'll help you understand. I just think they're on more.

I think they're— people pay more in taxes than they can afford to.

I can't put you on hold, but I would if I could.

No, I would put you on hold and get the calculator out, and we'd be looking at taxes right now.

So anyway, I'm gonna put you on a detailed EveryDollar budget where you have every dollar written down, and you need to find out where your income's going because your numbers aren't adding up, regardless of if Rachel thinks they are. And then you need to set sell your truck. And if you do those 3 things, I think you're going to see your way through this. You do not need to sell your house. You need to sell your truck.

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Meriam is in Green Bay. Hey, Meriam, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hi, can you hear me?

Yes, how can we help?

Hi, thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. I'm wondering about how to look at getting a job for specific financial goals without it becoming my money, his money with my husband, and also to not, hopefully not express to my husband that I don't think he's providing enough.

Hmm. So I'm kind of— you want to get a job and do something with that money that's not part of what the family wants to do.

To an extent. He, he, my husband isn't unsupportive of the, these ideas, but it's also like, um, He's not excited about it.

What's the idea? What's the idea, Beth? What are you wanting to do? I'm sorry, Mary, I'm pausing.

Everything from, I want counseling for myself, which also would be required for me to maintain a job for various reasons. And I have some health things I wanna get looked at that are expensive. I want, there's some random furniture that are not necessary that I would like to get. If I'm going to do that, I need to get a job in my head. There are some things like I would like more money to be put towards saving for a down payment or for vehicle replacement eventually. I'd like a little bit more buffer there. So, things like that that I feel like, okay, these would be things I would really like to have, and if I'm going to— if we're going to do that, I should go get a job. And I— but then I feel like I'm doing this in a I don't want it to be me versus him, and I don't want it to be my money, his money, but also, he's a spender, and so he sees a bucket of money in the to-be-assigned category in our budget, and he's like, "Ooh, we could put that," and I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no.

If my paycheck comes in, I wanna put it," I'm like, "This is exactly how I will delineate it, and it'll never, it's just going straight into the categories." Mm-hmm.

So there's not, you don't feel a lot of safety with your money when it comes to your differences with your husband?

Correct.

Yeah. And you're wanting some safety. Have you expressed that part to him?

Um, to an extent, not probably not enough. We have enough, but if things change, we don't.

What does he make?

Uh, he makes about $43,000 a year.

And what would you make at this job we're talking about?

Um, I'm looking for jobs that would pay at either $20 an hour or at least, um, $30,000 a year.

Mm-hmm. Do y'all have children?

No, unfortunately. Okay. That's part of, that's the whole thing anyway.

Okay.

Yeah, I mean, you guys are living on a tight budget at 43, for sure. So what do you do during the day? What's going on with you? Because you said something about having to keep a job. Are you not able to work?

Emotionally, no. Hence counseling is the highest line item Okay, what's going on?

Can I ask that? What's keeping you there?

Um, how to be concise. I have had few jobs where I've been able to— where I currently lack the skill set to deal with backbiting and gossip and corporate just shenanigans. And that's, that's something that I want to work on in counseling. I have had very few jobs where that's not been an issue, and they've either been me working by myself, working for myself as a household cleaner, or—

Because you easily get wrapped up into that, is that what you're saying? Or when it happens, you're paralyzed.

I let it bother me.

Okay.

I let it bother me, and I just completely descend into dysfunction and hate everything about life because of it.

Okay, so no, I would not do your plan, to answer your question, because it's not good for your marriage, it's not good for you. Instead, I would still accomplish exactly the same goals and do exactly the same thing, but do them in a different way. Okay, so yes, I'd go get a job, and yes, I'm going to add that income to the pool, and yes, I am one of two votes on this budget, and my vote is that some of our money that we make and put in a pool is going to pay for my counseling, and yes, some of our money is going to go for this, and no, you're not going to blow money over here while I'm not being cared for with the counseling that I need. You're not going to blow money over here while these health concerns have not been addressed.

Mm-hmm.

And no, and so we're both going to talk about this, and your vote doesn't count more than mine. They count the same. And so I'm willing to add some money to the equation, but the equation is going to be that the two of us sit down and we plan out the money in the best way that is good for our lives. And our lives include me being healthy emotionally and being healthy medically, and it includes us buying a stick of furniture every now and then, and it includes us getting out of debt, and it includes you having some fun too, whatever his fun bucket is, and those kinds of things. Mm-hmm. But we're gonna have a written, detailed EveryDollar budget that both of us agree to where every one of the dollars that both of us bring in are going. "and we are going to become aligned as a couple on that." And then that accomplishes exactly the same thing. But the way you're going about it, bluntly, you're avoiding dealing with the weaknesses in your marriage. And I want you to go into those head-on. And by the way, they're not deal-breaker weaknesses. They're just normal people that had never sat down and done the conflict work of getting engaged in doing this together and getting aligned.

And my hope is that your husband him is not so sensitive to be able to look at the math and say, "Hey, here are some needs and wants that I have too. And in order to accomplish all of this, we probably need some more income. So, I am gonna go and make some more income." And that's not a shot to his—

We're gonna go from 43 to 75.

Yeah.

And we're gonna sit down and spend that money. And it's gonna include some of the care things that I need and some of the things that you need to do. And some things that as a couple, we need to work on, like getting out of debt and building an emergency fund and some of those things. But going over here and building a separate life to accomplish your goals that don't include him supporting you in your goals— Mm-hmm, create conflict. —means that you haven't done the work on the marriage at that point.

Yeah, 'cause, I mean, the ideal picture would be, even with just, as you're talking about, you know, your struggles at work and counseling, is that he's alongside you in that journey with you, right? Like, you're doing the work on yourself, but he's involved in conversations and encouragement and curiosity and ask, like, right? But when you start to divide, even from a financial standpoint, if I'm gonna put this here, that's still one step of isolation of doing it on your own. All of this works in like a, in a cohesive way, right? And so, one follows the other with the money and your goals and everything. So, working together is so, so key, Miriam. So yeah, I would push into that.

It's probably gonna be a tough pull. It's a great question. And I appreciate the spirit, the way you asked the question. Thank you for that. So folks, um, when I started this stuff 30-something years ago, I thought this was a math problem. That getting into debt was a math problem. That it was an income problem. That it was a spending problem. Those aren't the problems. Those are the symptoms. The problem is the guy in my mirror. The problem is the relationships with my employer, the relationships with my spouse, the relationships with my extended family. Those are where the problems are. The actual symptom is the money problem. The money issues are a symptom of other crap that we don't deal with, all of us. Yeah. If you run a business, you already know this. Bad information leads to bad decisions. And right now, AI is everywhere. But AI is only as good as the data behind it. The best AI is built on the best data. That's why I recommend NetSuite. NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP, and more than 43,000 businesses businesses run on it, including us here at Ramsey Solutions. Their AI isn't bolted on, it's built in.

And it connects everything that runs your business— accounting, inventory, customer data— all in one place. Because when your numbers are connected, AI actually works like it's supposed to. NetSuite's AI helps flag cash flow problems, spot inventory issues, close your books faster, and cut down on manual reporting. If your revenue is at least 7 figures, go to netsuite.com/ramsey for a free product tour. That's netsuite.com/ramsey. We wish we could get to every call and question here on the show, but we simply can't. The lines stay full the entire time we're on the air. It's kind of hard to get through. Sorry about that. But you can head over to the website at RamseySolutions.com and use Ask Ramsey. Ask Ramsey's our free AI tool that is built and trained only on Ramsey answers. 3 years' worth of this show, books we've written, articles we've written, no sewage from Reddit will be mixed in. Just Ramsey answers, pure Ramsey answers. You'll get an answer the same way as if we answered it right here on the show. And it's completely free. It's an AI tool, but AI is driven by the dataset that you put into it. And this dataset is all Ramsey.

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Today's question comes from Amber in Rhode Island. She said, "I'm about to pay off my car and currently have full coverage. Once the car is paid off, should I lower the deductible, which would increase how much I pay every month, "Or save the deductible into a separate savings account? It would wipe out most of our emergency fund if I had to use it for car repairs." No, I think I would be just getting full coverage. I would keep the coverage.

Full coverage, and anytime you can raise the deductible, a larger deductible, and you have the money in your emergency fund to cover it, it's gonna drop your car insurance rate. Okay, and so the difference in a $250 and a $500 is huge. The difference in a $500 and $1,000, depending on the price of the car, the value of the car, is huge. And a way you can analyze it is this, okay? If you go from $250 deductible to a $500 deductible, you're taking an additional $250 worth of risk. Mm-hmm. Divide that into the savings. And so if it saves you $25, then that's 10— a year, that's 10 years. No, I wouldn't do that.

Mm-hmm.

If it saves you $250, then you made your money back in 1 year on the risk. So how much does the premium, the insurance premium drop as you raise the risk you're taking and compare those two. And if it's, you know, if you can make your money, the risk money back, even though you don't actually spend the money out, unless you have a wreck, if you can make it back in about 3 years, you ought to break even on the increased risk in about 3 years. So, like, I've got expensive cars and I carry, I think it's a $10,000 deductible now. But these are expensive cars. But it drops my deductible, I mean, drops my premiums way down. Okay, so, but you know, so you just kind of got to look at that. And most of the time, the best deal on a $30,000 car and under is somewhere around a $500 or $1,000 deductible. Somewhere in there is what you're looking for. And so just divide out the difference the savings, take the savings on your premium, divide that into the additional risk, and if that's about a 3, about a 3-year risk pattern, you're probably, it's probably wise to take the higher deductible in that case.

But almost every time you're going to find that to work on going from $250 to $500. So no, you don't lower the deductible. We're always trying to raise deductibles and raise the amount we have in savings to cover it.

Mm-hmm.

So we're giving the insurance company less money. Insurance should cover catastrophes, not hangnails. That's what you're looking for. And so the more— in anything you're doing, like if you can do a high deductible health insurance plan, like an HSA plan, your premiums go way down on your health insurance when you do that because you're accepting the first $5,000 or $7,000 or $10,000 worth of risk on the health insurance. And I $5,000 or $10,000 is not gonna cause you to bankrupt on a medical bill. What causes you bankrupt is $350,000 with a NICU stay with a baby, or $350,000 with a heart bypass, or a million, or whatever it ends up— that's the ones that break you. So what you're covering is the big stuff on a car wreck, the big stuff on a health insurance, and the deductible is the little stuff. So as soon as you can keep enough of your insurance your emergency fund up there. You want to do that like Rachel said. Larry is in Nashville. Hi, Larry, how are you?

I'm good, Dave. I'm retired. My pension income covers my monthly expenses. I have about $4,000 in the bank. I do not have anything to cover my burial expense. Should I get a low amount term life insurance policy to cover that burial.

You're, you're, you're how old?

I'm 80.

And you have $4,000 to your name?

Yes.

Do you own a home?

No.

And you're living on pension and Social Security?

Correct.

Are you renting, Larry?

Yes.

Okay.

What's your income?

Uh, about $3,600 a month.

Okay. And, um, you sound a lot younger than 80 on the phone, I'm telling you. Okay, thank you.

Congratulations.

Yeah, I just, um, I just turned 80. And I just got divorced.

Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Wow, what a thing to do at 80. Um, you have children?

Yes, adult children and, uh, uh, some adult grandchildren. And, uh, neither of my two children are in financial need. I don't need to to think about leaving them something when I die, except to pay for my burial.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I would not spend a ton of money, but if you can find a little $10,000 policy through your checking account at the bank or something like that—

I was gonna say, your life insurance probably will not be the best way, just 'cause it's very—

That's not my favorite way of doing it, but that's one way you could do it. The second thing that comes to mind is to add a little bit to the $4,000 as we go along. You don't have tons of room in this budget, obviously, but if you can add a little bit to it and then arrange for, you know, go ahead and do some shopping on an inexpensive funeral process, cremation or an inexpensive burial. I mean, we're looking for the Chevrolet casket, not the Cadillac casket, you know, that kind of stuff, right? And so what can we do for $5,000? And just assign that money to that issue. Don't prepay it, but kind of pre-detail it, pre-plan it to where you know that you've got it covered. And if you can get really, really close with your—

Make sure your adult children—

—with your cash, I would prefer to do that. And even if you added another $1,000 to it and you say, okay, $5,000 is the an emergency fund, and the ultimate emergency is my funeral expenses, so that I'm not a financial burden to the kid or the grandkids.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, wow. But, you know, if for $5 or $10 a month, I don't think you can, but if you could find something like one of these gimmick-type policies that are guaranteed issue, I don't know what they would cost at 80, but they obviously have to be guaranteed issue. Write you. It's not standard term insurance. Standard term insurance won't write you. But this would be like something that came with your checking account or something that came through an association you used to belong to because you were a teacher or whatever, something like that.

Mm-hmm.

But they're little gimmick policies is what they are, and they're guaranteed issue, no medical. And if, you know, $10 or something, you want to do that, it's not my favorite thing, though. I would rather just arrange, pre-detail and plan out, and have the cash to cover that. That's A. B would be to get an inexpensive issue, non-medical pre-issue.

Yeah, average funeral costs around $7,000 to $12,000.

Yeah, that's average. But I mean, you can do it. You can do like a cremation.

I mean, yeah, you get a casket for $2,000, funeral home services $2,000, and that's close to $5,000.

Costco's got caskets.

Yeah. George Campbell actually mentioned that. Yep. He loves Costco and he—

I walked by him. I think it was $1,800 when I walked by it the other day.

Oh yeah.

I think that's right. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. Beth is in Tulsa. Hey, Beth, how are you?

I'm good. How are you all?

Better than we deserve. What's up?

Wonderful. So, my husband and I are expecting our first child next month.

Yay!

Thank you. And we recently paid off all of our debt in April. Yay!

Good for you guys.

Yeah. So we're both contractors and we are paying for the birth in cash because we don't have access to health insurance. So as soon as we paid off the debt, started tucking money back. But I recently found out that I'm having a few mild health concerns. So I just went from full to part-time, which means all that extra parameter we had and our monthly snowball's now disappeared. So my question is, how do I deal with the guilt of choosing to take less money knowing it would slow us down so I can prepare for this baby?

You don't, I mean, from what you just described, I feel like you don't have much of a choice, right? I mean, you're 8 months pregnant, you're having some health stuff, so you have to slow down for the health of you and your baby, right? Yeah, welcome to mom guilt number one. I mean, like, I mean, that— I feel like there's not really an option, Beth. I feel like that's what you have to do. And that's way more important than, you know, money you'll make in a month.

How much would you make in a month extra above what you're going to make now if you were able to go full at it?

Probably about $2,500, $2,700.

Okay, it's real simple. One side of the scale, $2,700. Other side of the scale, healthy baby. No question. No guilt.

Zero.

Even if you guys—

If you could write a check for the health of your child for $2,700, you'd do it in a heartbeat.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm sorry, what'd you say, Rick?

Yeah, no, I was just saying, even if you had debt and you guys had to pause the debt snowball for your last month of pregnancy, you're okay. You know what I mean? Like, you are— By all means, good to do this, so.

Yeah, no, you have to do it. It's very much done.

What were you doing for work? You said you're a contractor. What type of contractor were you?

Yeah, so I'm in sales and marketing.

Uh-huh.

Okay.

You're really good at what you do, probably.

I think so.

So I do wonder, just like as a working mom to working mom, that your, I mean, not in a deep way necessarily, I'm not putting this on you, but there's an identity shift that happens and when your sudden value that you're bringing to the table comes to a screeching halt and you're no longer in that world providing that value, you're like whiplashed over to this new role as mom, as you are, right, carrying this baby. There probably is a level of, yeah, of just time, money, value whiplash that you're probably going through to a degree. If you're really good at what you do and you're passionate and you love your job and you're a hard driver and suddenly that stops, I think that can be sometimes a little hard just to kind of find that balance again.

Yeah, I agree. And I think the hard part for me as well is my husband and I have worked so hard over the last 2 years being so gazelle intense. And it feels like we haven't taken a step back because we paid off all that debt. But it does kind of feel like a step back watching all that extra parameter just disappear out of the budget.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's normal. That's normal. But again, you just say, "What's the trade-off?" The trade-off is a good trade. You're not trading and saying, "I want to be lazy and sit in the backyard and drink soda water." Right. You know, that's not what we're doing. We're delivering a human being the highest calling of either one of you, you and your husband. It's the best thing you can do. It's much better than getting out of debt.

Thank you. That's a very good perspective.

Thank you.

Very good. Good for you guys.

Yeah, and Beth, and you probably would be one of these couples that we talk to, who are on like Baby Step 7 in a few years, and you're like, "I still just, we can't spend money. We don't know how to spend money. We can't slow down." You know what I mean? It's a good exercise. Just to slow down. You're good. You are good. This money stuff, this money stuff is here to create a life that you guys love. It's a tool in your life. It's not something to be worshiped or to place all this value in, right? It's here to support you, not be the thing in your life. And so you guys have done an excellent job up until this point of getting out of debt, driving hard, having a goal, doing all of it so that you can— Mm-hmm. Have peace right now because you guys are debt-free.

You did it. Hey, go to Health Trust also at RamseySolutions.com and hook up with our advertiser and get some health insurance.

Okay.

Y'all don't need to be walking around without health insurance. That's gonna— now that could blow things up. That could be a mess. And you know, it's not gonna cover labor and delivery at this point, but it actually could cover other things that happened at the birth. If something other than just normal labor and delivery happened. So you need to get in touch with HealthTrust and let them search you out some health insurance. And you can find how to connect with them on the website easy enough. And so yeah, for sure. Mm-hmm. Don't be walking around without health insurance. But anyway, aside from that, that's not the issue here. The issue here is just margin and trade-offs. And I appreciate your question. It's got a good heart And congratulations, you're out of debt and you're having a baby. Life is great. This is about as good as it gets. Kevin's in Milwaukee. Hey Kevin, what's up?

Hey Dave, hi Rachel, thanks for taking my call.

Sure, how can we help?

Yeah, so I actually just recently got let go from my job. Should I take, should I apply for unemployment or just work side hustles to supplement the income until I find a new job? I'd work side hustles. —Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

You're more employable.

Yeah.

You walk different and you talk different when you walk into the interview if you're not sitting at home collecting a government check.

Okay, that's what I like to hear.

Yeah. What were you making?

I was making about $76,000.

Why were you let go?

Just wasn't aligned with my skills. I recently just found out I have a passion for sales, and I'm 30 years old, and I'm just ready to get after it.

Okay, good news is if you got a passion for sales, there's always work to be done.

Absolutely.

Yeah, Henry Ford said nothing happens until somebody sells something. It's like, it's the highest paid profession on the planet.

Mm-hmm, and if you're good and you're on commission, you can kill it.

Yeah, you get in a high quality product that you're proud of and that's really serving the customer, customer, and they're really— their life is better because you're selling it, and you pour on some passion and some enthusiasm, and you get in there and smile and love people and serve them well by making sure they get a hold of that high-quality, high-margin product, and you will get rich. And you should. It's a great profession. Highly recommend it. So I'm glad you found that passion, and you get to prove it now by your side hustles too. Yeah. Pick up some side hustles that got something to do with marketing or sales. Sales aspects. Yeah, don't be driving Uber. Let's go be doing something and move that, take that same passion and do the other. And meanwhile, get to work. I'm gonna send you a copy of Coleman's book, Proximity Principle, which will help you land that next job too. Wow.

That's good, good luck, Kevin.

Yeah, it's gonna be great. It's gonna be amazing. This is a guy who's leaving $76,000 and is gonna end up making $100,000. After being let go. Isn't that a great phrase? Like he was being held captive. We let him go. It was a butterfly and he was in a jar and we let him go.

Mm-hmm.

Hey guys, Rachel Cruze here, and I love summer. There is more fun on the calendar, more time with your people, and way more chances to make memories. But you know what else there's more of? Spending. Oh, between the extra groceries and gas and camp fees and family trips, it all starts to add up so fast. And before you know it, money stress starts to steal the fun out of everything. And that is why I love the EveryDollar budget app, because it helps you plan your money, track your spending, and find more margin in your budget so that you can put extra cash towards the goals that matter most. Mm-hmm. Enjoy your summer without the money stress. Download the EveryDollar app in the App Store or Google Play and start for free today. Mm-hmm.

Are you sick and tired of working so hard but having nothing to show for it? Well, that's normal. Normal's broke. You don't have to live that way. Our EveryDollar budgeting app helps you find extra money every month and builds you a personalized plan to beat debt and build wealth. In just 15 minutes, you're gonna find thousands of dollars in hidden margin, and you're gonna feel like you got a raise. Don't be normal anymore, especially when you can live like no one else. Start EveryDollar for free in the App Store or Google Play. Kyle is with us in New York City. Hey, Kyle, how are you?

Hey, Dave. Hey, Rachel, how are you?

Better than we deserve. What's up?

So my question is, I am 26 years old. I make $100,000 pretax each year, and I'm currently working on baby steps.

Step 6.

So I've worked my butt off my entire life to be able to save up money. Um, I feel like I'm doing pretty okay for myself, but a lot of, uh, people are in my ear, colleagues, friends, family telling me I'm working too hard. I'm missing out on some of the best years of my life. Do you agree with that sentiment?

What are you missing out on?

These are the same people that are taking vacations every year, several vacations, new iPhone, new Apple Watch every year. So not the—

That's how you define living life well is an Apple Watch?

But if I'm lucky enough to be an old man one day, I don't wanna look back and say, you know, I—

I didn't have an Apple Watch?

No, no, is it time for me to start letting off the gas a little bit?

I don't know, how many hours a week are you working?

So currently I already kinda cut back a little bit. I'm currently pushing between 55 and 65 hours a week depending on like an on-call schedule.

Okay.

But from the ages of 15 to 22, I was working 3 jobs just trying to get ahead.

Yeah, but you're not now.

80 hours a week.

You're not now. So what? I worked a lot of hours too, but I'm not now. So what's the problem? I mean, now you're working 55, 60 hours. Most people that are successful work 55 or 60 hours. There's no 30-hour-a-week successful people.—

Yeah, but you could work a 40-hour work week and do well.

You can do well, but I mean, if you want to have success, you're not going to do it on 30 or 40 hours. You're going to put the coals on a little bit. That's part of life. Oh well.

So my biggest thing is, before I really decide to let off the gas and start taking it a little more easy, spoiling myself, I want to get the house paid off.

Okay, how much you owe on the house?

I owe $249,000.

Okay, well, here's the thing. You can't let other people decide what you want, what they want for you to be your deal. You need to decide what you want. And listen, when you're 72, you're not gonna go, "Oh, I wish I'd had an iPhone when I was 30." That doesn't come up, okay? But now, if there's people people that you love that you're not spending time with, you need to do that and turn off Netflix. If there's a— and you know, if you need to go on one vacation, there's nothing wrong with that. Go on vacation. Or if, you know, you're single, you said, right?

No, I am in a relationship, not married though.

Okay, well, I mean, you know, if that relationship is starving for lack of water then put some water on it. But that's not what you said. You said people are saying you should take more vacations like they do, and they're broke.

Yeah, mostly families are saying you're missing out on experience.

People are saying you're missing out on an iPhone watch. Oh my God.

And you know what I keep justifying it as is, you know, I'm gonna be on cruise control relaxing when they're all still stuck in the rat race one day, but I really don't wanna grow old and think, You know, you were working 3 jobs when you were an 18-year-old.

These are people that confuse leisure with happiness. Leisure does not equal happiness. Leisure is a good thing. It's a time to reboot, reset, replenish, replant. Leisure is good. Travel is good for that reason. You know, go sit somewhere and put your feet in the sand or whatever and read a book. There's nothing wrong with that. Reset. That's why we have a Sabbath once a week. We don't work. Work on Sundays. You know, that's— people of faith do that. That's leisure, and that's time for your spirit to reset, your body to reset physically, and time to make sure your relationships are blossoming. But people who just don't want to work are not models you want to follow.

Well, that and, Kyle, on both ends of the spectrum in this call so far, you've been talking about people. On the front end, it was like, "Well, people are telling me I should relax." And then your motivation on the other end but I just know if I work hard and I do all of this, they'll be trying to work hard and I'll be good over here. It's all, yeah, it's a lot of people, people, people. I would just put the blinders on, Kyle. Be happy for everyone else. That's fine. They can do what they wanna do. They can buy their iPhone Watch and do all that stuff. But what you need to do is focus on what makes you happy, Kyle. What do you wanna enjoy? Do you wanna say, "Yeah, for the next 2 years, I'm gonna pull back some work hours and "Work 50 hours, not 65, and have some more time, you know, with my girlfriend. And, you know, I'm gonna do this and that. And then, I'll probably plug back in here and try this." I mean, make a life you want, Kyle, not for everybody else, and not for the motivator of what other people are gonna do or not do, or what they're saying or not saying.

Rachel said in one of her—

You have to figure it out.

One of her number one bestselling books, "Comparison is the thief of joy." Well, I think Theodore Roosevelt said that.

But I said—

Oh, okay. You quoted it. You quoted it.

It. But I will say, comparison will not just—

Kyle almost got the quote changed just then.

Will not just steal your joy. I did say, "It will not just steal your joy, it'll steal your paycheck too." Because you'll end up spending money, aka, Kyle, on all this stuff that other people talk about and what other people want. And it steals your joy and your paycheck, so.

And they're chasing happiness up a tree that hadn't got it. There's no happiness fruit on that tree. So, I never met a soul in 30 years of 40 years of doing financial coaching who goes, "You know, I'm so happy I finally got an iWatch." No, it's called an Apple Watch.

I have an Apple Watch, whatever it is.

I mean, stupid thing. I mean, it's like, "I'm so happy I got that car. That car changed my life. That house changed my life." That's the dumb thing when people say, "It's not my dream home." None of them are. Well, as soon as you get in there, your dreams will change. So, there's no such thing as a dream home. That's just a dream. That's not real. And so, it's just a stupid house. If your happiness is defined by where you live, you will never be happy. If your happiness is defined by what you wear or where you travel to, you will never be happy. Because happiness is a bully in the schoolyard. It says, "Cross this line and then we'll fight." And you step across the line, he steps back and draws another line. Says, "Come on over here," and then, "Come on over here." You know, it's funny— It's perpetually chasing something that's not there. When Arthur Brooks— that's where meaning comes from.

Yeah, and Arthur Brooks, who literally studies this, when it comes to the brain, yes, happiness with money, he says, "Four things will give you happiness with money. One will not. Giving money away brings happiness. Buying your time back and actually letting, you know, and using that time for good. Spending it on experiences with people you love, that brings you levels of happiness. And actually saving creates happiness because there's a actual," progress happening in your life, and your brain sees that as joy. The thing that will never bring levels of happiness, long-term, that sustain, is buying stuff. So, buying stuff is not bad. We're not against buying stuff, by any means. But it's the belief— We just don't believe it's used. But it's the belief, yes, that I need to go and enjoy. Now, do you need to enjoy? Yeah, sure. But to think that that's the end goal of all of this, you've missed the point. And you said it earlier, and I think it is true, when you actually find work that you do enjoy and you have fun with, it doesn't feel like this trap that you have to go to Monday through Friday as well.

So, there's a balance in all of it. And I think you need to find your balance, Kyle, in this part of your life. You've worked hard, you don't have debt, you got your emergency fund, you're in the Baby Steps where you don't have to be gazelle intense. You can enjoy some of it, but also run your own race, Kyle, not for everybody else.

Yeah, the friends and family don't get a vote. Vote. Some of the happiest people I know are some of the hardest working people I know. They're really, really happy. And they're not confused and their friends and family don't get a vote.

Thank you.

You should not feel uncertain about investing, and you don't have to. That's why we created Investing Essentials, a 2-night virtual event where George Campbell and I walk you through my playbook for investing and wealth planning. We'll simplify everything from 401(k)s 401(k)s and mutual funds to passing on wealth. So you can invest with confidence. Tickets start at $199. Get yours today at RamseySolutions.com/events, or click the link in the show notes.

Okay.

In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Scott Scott and Kim are with us. Hey guys, how are you?

Hey, we are great, and it's an honor to be here today, Dave.

We're honored to have you. Where do you guys live?

We live in Applegate, California. It's about 50 miles east of Sacramento.

Ah, that's a beautiful area. Yeah. That's a pretty area. Very cool. Welcome to Nashville. And here to do a debt-free scream. How much have you paid off?

We paid off $420,000, Dave.

Whoa!

How long did that take?

It took about 10 years once we got focused.

Okay, that's good. And your range of income over that decade?

Range of income was about $160,000 to start, and we wrapped up at about $260,000.

Okay, very cool. What do y'all do for a living?

I get people ready for the workday, Dave. I work for a company called Cintas. And I'm a service manager.

Gotcha. And I am officially retired after 36 years of teaching. Wow!

Oh my gosh! What did you teach?

Mostly 5th grade, 4th, 5th, and 6th.

Oh, there are angel wings on your back.

God bless you.

Thank you.

As a mom with little ones in those grades, we love you, teachers, so thank you.

Thank you.

Very cool. Congratulations.

Good for you. So, $420,000 over 10 years in the valley outside— that's a house and everything, isn't it?

Yes, it is, sir.

Way to go, guys!

Yes!

Whoop, whoop, whoop! Look at that weird people!

We're weird.

No payments! No payments at all! How's it feel to not have a stinking payment of any kind?

Man, it's still surreal. We just did this in April, and man, it feels great, but we're still getting used to it.

I love it.

2 months without a mortgage payment. That feels amazing.

How long y'all been married?

How long have you been married?

36 years.

Have you ever been without a payment? No. Had a payment the whole time of some kind?

The whole time until April. Yeah.

Wow. Constantly. In fact, we thought that was the way of life, just—

Oh yeah, everybody does.

Yeah, wanted something, we bought it.

Did you guys have a consumer debt journey as well besides just the house?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, how much was in there? How much was consumer debt?

About half of it.

Okay.

Well, half of it, we also had some unfortunate IRS IRS debt and some student loans, but a lot of it was credit cards and a car payment and all that stuff.

So you got that cleared up and then went after the house?

Yes.

Right down the baby steps. Yes.

Oh yeah.

Followed them to a T.

And 10 years.

So the house is worth what now?

The house is worth about $650,000.

Okay, and how much in your nest egg for retirement at this point?

Just over $1 million.

So $1,600,000 net worth at least. East, May and 7th. Way to go, y'all. Golly, good job, you guys. You're millionaires. How cool is that?

And we're weird.

Look, we work at Centus, and we were a teacher, and we're millionaires, getting ready to be multimillionaires. Wow, that's so impressive. I'm proud of y'all. Well done. How old are you?

I'm 62.

60.

All right, and retired.

Good job.

I am, yes, sir. I know, I know, I heard it. I like it.

I'm gonna keep at it for a while, Dave. I like working, so I'm gonna keep doing it.

Good for you.

I love it, I love it. So what happened 10 years ago that you guys said, gosh, we gotta be weird, we gotta change the way we've been doing our money?

You know, we were just, we were starting to feel it. So we had a lot of payments, we were doing silly things like paying off credit cards with credit cards, and just feeling the weight of it. And I mentioned it to my brother, he mentioned the show, I didn't jump into it right away, but I was driving home from work one day, flipping through the stations, and stumbled on this guy talking about getting out of debt, and I was hooked. And so I came home and told Kim about it, and we jumped right in.

We set up our envelopes and beans and rice, rice and beans. Yeah. It's a long time. Although, I really think that it should be grits and beans. And collard greens.

Whoa!

Now that I'm here.

Now that you're in the South.

Now that you're in the South. Welcome to the promised land. Wow. I know, I know. Okay, so, was that all 10 year— around 10 years ago? Were you guys around that 50-year-old— 50-year mark of age? Yes. Okay, which I think is so encouraging for people because some people get on the stage, you know, and they're in their early, late, or late 20s, and it's unbelievable they're doing it right away. But it's so good to see and hear from couples that you're like, "No, we—" Yeah, you guys were in your 50s, and you're like, "You know what? We're still gonna— we still have the ability to change." change.

Yes.

And do something different, which I think is so encouraging for people that you can make that big of a jump.

And the student loan was for our younger son. We have 2 boys. Now, we have 3 granddaughters. And he's actually right now, he's debt-free. They're following the program as well. And he is getting his doctorate at the University of Georgia.

Wow.

So, it's really cool that we're here. It's awesome to see her.

Very cool.

Yeah.

New little baby. —full circle.

I love it. I love it. Well, congratulations, you guys.

Thank you.

All right, now that you did it, 10 years, you busted it, got rid of the consumer debt, Baby Steps 1 through 3, then you did 4 through 7, getting out, you know, investing, and now you got $1 million in investments, $650,000 paid-for house, you're Baby Steps millionaires. You did all of that basically in a decade, from mess to multimillionaire.— in a decade.

Yes.

That's very cool when you think about that. And that's very hopeful for other people. What do you tell people the secret was that caused you to be able to do that?

Stop borrowing money. Don't buy it unless you have the money to pay for it. And invest when you can.

And have fun free. There's just so many things that you can do that don't cost any money, you know? Go out, spend time with your elderlies. I just spent some time with an elderly woman that's next to our Airbnb. And she said, you know, first of all, once I was like totally enthralled with all of the fireflies. Oh my gosh, you have fireflies here, y'all. Never seen one before. She said, go out and take your elderly people outside of their house. And that's totally free.

Mm.

Yeah.

Go and serve. There's so much that you can do where it doesn't cost money, and it just opens up your heart and it makes you feel really good.

I love that. Beautiful.

Spoken like a good 5th grade teacher right there.

I know, I know. It's so good. Okay, so what was the hard part of the decade when you look back and you're like, oh man, that was tough?

That part sucked.

Yeah, we had to really tighten it up, and it did suck.

Getting my nails done.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, cutting out some stuff.

Just saying.

We had to cut out a lot of stuff and just living tight, passing missing out on trips and dinners and things like that when friends wanted to do things. Do you regret it? I do not, not at all.

I don't either. Okay.

It was worth it. Live like no one else so later you get to live and give like no one else.

Absolutely.

And here you are.

Yep, yep, yep.

Way to go. Well, I'm so proud of you guys. You're inspiring people. Way to go, way to go.

Thank you.

All right, from working at Centus and a 5th grade teacher, In 10 years, they pay off $420,000, house and everything, putting them in place mathematically to be multi-millionaires at 60 years old. Pretty stinking incredible, making $160,000 to $260,000.

With a retiree.

And then retired, and then retired. Here we go, count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. 3, 2, 1.

We're debt-free! Yeah!

Wow!

So great.

You know what they didn't need? They didn't need a government handout. You know what they didn't need? They didn't need a universal income. You know what they didn't need? All this stuff that everybody talks about that someone else is going to give you. You. Instead, they just went to work and went to work.

Didn't go into debt.

Got out of debt. 10 years later, they go from $420,000 in debt, house and everything, to no debt, to multimillionaire. So they're $1.65 today, so they'll be at $2, and if they hadn't already got some other assets putting them up at $2 right now. So couple million-dollar Baby Steps millionaires, this is where they come from. They followed the Baby Steps exactly. They didn't call me up and go, "Well, I don't know, and I need, eh, eh, eh." We didn't hear any of that whining. We didn't hear any of this, "I wanna go, I'm tired. I wanna go on vacation." Nobody called, they just did it. And did you hear that they regretted it? No, they don't. You know what they can do now? Anything they want. Yeah. What? They don't have any payments and they have $1 million in retirement. Shut up. These people are heroes. This is how it's done right here. And so don't, please don't tell me you're not willing to pay a price to win. They're standing in front of you saying it's worth it. Pay a price and you'll win.

Thank you.

Hey guys, Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now, you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision, or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to ramseysolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's ramseysolutions.com. Our Scripture of the Day, 1 John 3:18, "Dear children, let us not love with words or speech, but with actions and in truth." Thomas Sowell said, "People say you're a very tough person. I'm not tough. Life is tough. I'm merely trying to acquaint you with the facts." Ivy is in Greensboro, North Carolina. Hi, Ivy, how are you?

Hey, good.

Hey, what's up?

So, uh, sorry, my brain went to mush. Um, I'm calling because, um, so I, um, inherited a house from my dad who didn't raise me, and I didn't know him until I was, um, like a preteen. And, um, he lived in a different state than me, and later in life we reconnected when I was an adult. Um, and, um, he ended up—

How long ago did he pass?

Okay. So he passed 4 years ago, but his wife married him, um, 2 years before he passed. So she became the life tenant and I was the remainderman. So I didn't have any financial obligation to this house until this week. And so—

So she passed away.

She did, yes. Okay.

Um, where is the house?

It's in Florida.

And what's it worth?

Um, the local comps say $350,000.

And what's owed on it?

$92,000.

What are you planning to do with it?

So that's where, um, I'm not sure, but like I've been praying on it since I, um, found this out on Wednesday, cause it was a very emotional situation because The girl that my dad raised, who's like 10, 12 years younger than me, she came into his life when he had remarried the first time, like the first time. And then her mom went and did her own thing and he raised this girl. And when he passed 4 years ago, she sent me all these really hateful text messages that because she couldn't believe that he left the house to me and not her. And she demanded I sign it over. And I just responded as nice as possible. And I kind of pulled a Dave Ramsey move where you kind of just say, "I'm sorry you're going through this. I know it's hard." And I just defaulted to those sentences. And then I just stopped communication. And then, so she continued living in the house with the lady that passed away. Mm-hmm. She's in the house, but the house is my house. And, um, I, it's like totally mine. There's no probate or nothing. It's a done deal.

I understand. So you need—

How old is she?

I think she's roughly 29 and I'm 41 now.

So here's what you need to do. Okay. Stop just a second. Okay. This person, the longer they stay, the bigger the problem's going to be. So instantaneously, you need to reach out to her, like, as soon as you get off the phone, and say, "Hon, I'm getting ready to put the house on the market, and so you're gonna have to make other plans to move. If you haven't moved by the end of the month, my attorney will be in touch with you." Yes, so that's like the advice that some family members are given, and then some other family members— Why does that make you cry? You don't even know her.

'Cause other people are saying, well, this can be an income investment. Do this, do this, do that.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't need this house and you don't need this trouble.

Yeah. And so even like kicking her out breaks my heart 'cause like I've been praying on this and I've tried to think like, I feel like my dad left this to me because I feel like he had a lot of regret and we were getting closer and closer.

It doesn't matter why he left it to you.— the bottom line is it's yours. And it's yours to do with as you want. And there is no point in this conversation that this 29-year-old needs to live there anymore. They've lived there for free for 10 years longer than they should have because their mother was there. This is a 19-year-old who was freeloading for a decade on her mother. Right.

It's not even her mom, I don't think. It was like the next wife or something.

No, no, it wasn't. Yeah.

So, that's even more—

Yeah, this is very weird.

Even more of a dysfunctional issue.

So, please—

Okay.

Take a deep breath. Just be kind and be very quick.

Yeah, I just— I know it seems so simple because you're Dave Ramsey, but emotionally, it's not.

I don't know why it's emotional. You don't even know her. Her. You don't even know the house.

Because I know the Lord.

That's why.

The Lord doesn't make it emotional. I know the Lord too, but it doesn't make it emotional.

Well, I had considered this. This is what I considered, and I'd been praying and praying, and I woke up yesterday and I just felt this thing that said, here's the solution. Okay, what's the solution? Is that the market value and the comps are $350,000. And I thought maybe I offer to her for $275,000 and give her a deal. And then I still have enough to pay my own house off. 'Cause I followed all the Baby Steps since 2018. I have a whole library of all of y'all's books. And I have Rachel—

That's fine if you want to do that.

Wallet.

That's not what I would do.

Okay.

You can do that if you want to do that, if you feel like that's the Lord. I don't know if that's the Lord or you just being sweet and guilt-ridden over something you didn't even do.

Well, I don't know why I should have guilt. I definitely don't have guilt. I don't either.

I don't know why you offer this girl a dime. It's not like she's ever going to be happy with you.

Yeah.

If you give her the freaking house for free, she's still going to be a biatch.

I feel like she lost the dad that I never had, and as much as it pained me to lose him, I tried to—

The house hasn't got anything to do with that.

Yeah, you're right.

And writing her a check doesn't have anything to do with that. Those are two separate issues. Writing her a check does not make her have the dad or didn't have the dad, or you had the dad or didn't have the dad. Checks don't fix any of that. That was the dad.

Okay.

Money doesn't change that. So, I'm telling you, if you play with this girl, you're gonna be dancing with her for the next 5 years. If you give her one quarter, you're gonna be dancing with her. But you do what you want. If you feel like that's God, I'm not positive if it is or isn't God. I don't ever— I sometimes challenge people when they play the God card, but you said, "I heard that in prayer," okay, is what you said. That's good. And so, if you think that's God, you should be real sure that it's God, and then you should do what God said, not what Dave said. But I'm not positive if it is or isn't. I don't see any biblical principle that says that you ought to do that. I think this is a dysfunctional mess.

And I know you're tough love. I know you're tough love, so I knew you were coming into that.

It's not tough love. It's not tough love. It's just love. And it's just accepting the reality of who this woman is, is she is not gonna be okay because of this house transaction, regardless of how the house transaction goes down.

I agree. I agree, Ivy. I think your heart is in a really great place, just in a sense of you are genuinely looking out. But also, scripture talks a lot about wisdom, running away from foolish situations. I mean, there's— you could back it up the other way too, with scripture, if you wanted to play that game, right? I mean, you could. And so, again, if you feel like you have a conviction, there's something deep in your soul, and your spirit is moving, yes, you can follow it. But also, when we look at the facts of everything you just said in the 6-minute call, the mess that you're probably gonna end up being in with her for the— exactly right, for the next couple of years is what I was thinking in my head. I'm like, "Oh, Ivy's gonna be attached to this girl forever," 'cause she's trying to be nice. Nice. And it's almost like this codependence of, I have to make her okay with this. And you can never make her okay. It's just— it's— that's not gonna happen. And she's 29 years old, Ivy. That's why I asked her age. If she's 18, I'd feel for the girl and be like, all right, let's figure out a way to set her up well in life.

What a gift. That's a—

she's 30 years old and has lived for free. She's 30 years old with a woman who isn't even her mother.

Why don't Why does she go buy her own condo? Like, she's fine. Like, let her figure it out. That's not your problem, Ivy. That's not your problem. And the fact of how hateful she is. All of it, it's a mess. I would put up a boundary with her. You're not related to her. She's not part of your life. Like, this is crazy.

You need to be out of the house by the end of the month or our attorney will remove you. And then we will sell the house. And then we will move on with our lives, all of us. And that's what I would do. Very simple.

That's it.

That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.