Transcript of How Regrets Can Move You Forward | Oprah & Daniel Pink

Hi there. I am so glad you joined me on my podcast. I'm having a fascinating conversation with Daniel Pink Gotcha. Who writes about the power of regret. I wonder if you're like me, just hearing the word brings up thoughts of the things in life you regret the most.

Well, we spoke to some people who are experiencing regret. I lost my virginity too soon.

What if I had stood up for myself in my marriage? Getting the diagnosis, I wish I

would have just really just savored the moments, the the unbelievable moments. Sorry. But what I learned, which I think you will really appreciate, is that there is power in regret.

It clarifies what we value. Mhmm.

It all depends on if regret is holding you back or if you can shift your mindset to use your regrets to propel you forward. So what comes up for you? What is your biggest regret? I have my own that I'll share on this podcast. That is my deepest, deepest regret.

So, everybody, thanks for joining us on this podcast. We're talking about today something few people ever talk about. That's why I wanna talk about it. We're talking about regrets, regrets, and I'm joined by the man who literally wrote the book on regrets, journalists, and the author of 7 New York Times bestsellers, Daniel Pink. Daniel Pink began his career as a Yale Law School graduate working in politics and government in Washington DC.

And after 2 years as Al Gore's chief speechwriter, Daniel decided to venture out on his own, an experience he wrote about in his Fast Company article, Free Agent Nation, which became his first book. Since then, Daniel has written 6 more books, including Drive, To Sell Is Human, and another 1 of my favorites, A Whole New Mind.

If we repair this mismatch between what science knows and what business does.

He's 1 of the world's most in demand speakers and has delivered more than 1200 lectures on 6 continents.

And maybe we can change the world. I rest my case.

I am so delighted to speak to you again. It's been years.

I'm so glad to be back talking to you.

Yeah. And I have to tell you, I really appreciated this book about regrets because when I saw it, and I first came across it because we had used many of your quotes in our The Life You Want, Becoming Unstuck Journal, and talking about your philosophy. And I was like, you know what? It's the thing that everybody feels at some point in their life, even though there's a Frank Sinatra song that says, Regrets, I've Had A Few, but Too For You TO Mention. A lot of people have a lot, and if you make, if you have a deep regret that follows you your whole life, a lot of people can't get over it.

Right. And so that's why I wanted to talk to you. Why did you how did you even come up with this idea to focus on this specific human emotion of regret?

Because I had regrets, and I wanted to make sense of them. They actually were c catalyzed in part when my elder daughter graduated from college. And I'm at her college graduation, and I can't believe that this kid is graduating from college because it seems like yesterday, she was 2 years old. I can't believe that I'm old enough to have a kid graduating from college. And I started thinking about my own college experience, and I had some regrets.

About your college experience? Yeah.

I wish I were kinder. I wish I had taken more risks. You know, those kinds of things. And I came back to Washington, DC where I live, and I knew that no and it was it bothered me, these regrets. And I came back to Washington DC where I live, and I knew that nobody wanted to talk about regrets.

But I kinda sheepishly mentioned it to some people, and I discovered that everybody wanted to talk about it. That as soon as I gave them the license to talk about it, they came forward with their own regrets. And you

did your own

And that's a really good sign.

Okay. And the the subtitle of the book is how looking backward how looking backward moves us forward.

Right.

How does that if you're stuck in the regret?

Yeah. Well, the the key is not to be stuck in the regret. And the the the thing is is everybody has regrets. It's 1 of the most common emotions that humans have. The thing is we haven't been taught how to deal with them properly.

So some of us ignore our regrets. So we put our fingers in our ears and say, no regrets, no regrets.

And act like it's not. Yeah. And it's just back there in the in the in the periphery, and you're seething.

Denial. Right? Denial. Yes. Bad idea.

Bad. Others of us get captured by our regrets. We wallow in our regrets. We ruminate on our regrets. That's also a bad idea.

What we should be doing with our regrets is looking them in the eye, thinking about them.

And in our journal, we ask people to define their regrets. Why do you think it's important for people to define the regrets?

Because a lot regrets are often kind of blobby and amorphous. And so when we write about them or talk about them, we take this blob and make it concrete. We turn it into words. And those words help us make sense of it, and those words are are less menacing. And the more we realize that, oh, I'm experiencing something that other people have experienced, the more we kind of defang some of the pain of the regret.

Got it. Okay. So those of you who are watching or listening to us right now, I know this is gonna trigger you to think about what are the things that you deeply regret. Because I walk around thinking, oh, I don't have a lot of regrets. And then reading this book, I went, yeah, actually, I do.

Why does regret hold such power?

I mean, it holds power, I think, in part because we don't know what to do. For 2 reasons. 1 is that everybody has regrets. It's 1 of the most common emotions that human beings have. And yet, we've been sold such a bill of goods about positivity and being positive all the time, that when we feel regret, we think that we're the only 1, and we're not.

It's part of the human wiring. It's part of our cognitive machinery. And the reason it exists is that it clarifies what we value, and it helps us do better in the future.

So you studied and collected regrets from over 26,000 Yeah. People from a 130 countries. The data showed that there are basically 4 types.

Yeah.

Can you talk about that?

Sure thing. Yeah. It was pretty it's pretty remarkable. Around the world, people seem to have the same 4 regrets. 1 are what I call foundation regrets.

Those are small decisions people make early in their life that accumulate to terrible consequences later. Spend too much in save too little, now I'm broke. Another 1. Big cat big category. Boldness regrets.

Alright? You're at a juncture in your life. You can play it safe, or you can take the chance. And what's overwhelming is that people regret not taking the chance much more than they regret.

People regret

not taking the chance than than taking the chance.

Yeah.

People and it doesn't matter the domain of life. You have people who regret not traveling. I have hundreds of people in this database who regret not asking somebody out on a date. Wow. Years years ago.

And what that could have meant. Exactly. Or or maybe it wouldn't have been anything, but you you didn't do it. Exactly.

You didn't take the shot, and that's what really sticks

with people. Boy, that is the thing. Boldness regrets. You didn't take the shot.

Moral regrets, which again, a lot of these regrets begin at a juncture of decision making. So moral regrets are you can take the high road, you can take the low road. Yeah. You can do the right thing, you can do the wrong thing. And most of us, when we do the wrong thing, when we take the low road, we regret it.

Because most of us are good. Yeah. And most of us wanna be good.

And you were saying you say this in the book too, that the regrets show us what really matters

to us. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Because these other I mean, the other regret that the people have are connection regrets, which are regrets about relationships.

Yeah. But when we we look around the world and people have these regrets, these were 4 regrets operate as kind of a reverse image of what we really value in life. Foundation regrets, we value stability. What's a good life? A good life has some stability underneath it.

A good life is not wobbly. And so what foundation regrets, taking care of your finances, taking care of your health, taking care of your education, that's part of what it is to lead a good life. Yeah. Boldness regrets. We value learning and growth.

We value not wasting our time in this limited space that we're here. Moral regrets. We value goodness. A good life is being good. A good life is being true and honest and just.

And connection regrets are about love. And so when you look at these regrets, what do we value in life? We want some stability. We want learning and growth. We want goodness.

And we want

sure want we sure want connection.

Absolutely. That was the biggest category.

Yeah. Okay. What do you think I I I I just you just saying that just just triggered me to think about what do you think is the true definition of a meaningful and good life?

Well, I mean, we

And has that evolved as you've grown?

For as as I've grown? Yes. Well, I mean, I think earlier in my life, I was clueless about that. I was I think I was incapable of answering that question. I think I didn't know.

Yeah. In the same way that I would not have written a book about regret in my thirties. Whereas in my fifties, it felt inevitable.

That's right.

Because I had I had mileage on it.

You know what it is. Yeah. You actually I

mean, I think a good life is is having people who you love and who love you. I think I think 1 can stop there. I think there are other things, but I think that's really at the core of it. And we have some interesting research on that. The famous grant study at Harvard that was this longitudinal study, following men, but then men other people from the time they were in college all the way through the rest of their lives.

It didn't matter what their IQ was, what their money what their health situation, how much money they had. What ultimately mattered in people's satisfaction was love. I mean, the the 1 of the people who founded this study, this incredible piece of psychological science, he said, well, I can summarize the results in a few words. See, she said, happiness is love, full stop. And I think that's true.

Now I think there are other things that give us meaning in life, in a good life, and I think regret exemplifies that. Not wasting your time doing stuff, contributing, trying things, learning and growing. I think that's a big part of it. Providing for other people, contributing to the world. Mhmm.

And also, I come back to this idea of these moral regrets of just being a good, just, generous person. And it's pretty simple. And and I think that 1 of the things that the research on regret and even my own investigation of it reveals is that a lot of the decisions we make in our life, a lot of them don't matter that much.

Right. But a lot of them matter hugely. Yeah. The only people who don't regret it are people who are narcissists and don't have a conscious about it.

Right? But that but that that's true. I mean, what we see in the in the cognitive science is that even though everybody many people perform not having regrets, the only people who don't have regrets are 5 year olds because their brains haven't developed the ability to do counterfactual thinking, Certain kinds of people with certain kinds of neurodegenerative disorders, and sociopaths. Everybody else has regrets because it's part of our it's part of our wiring. And when it comes to moral regrets, I I think 1 of the things that's heartening about this research is that the number of people with moral regret, people who regret bullying a kid in school 40 years ago and then break into tears when I'm interviewing them about it because they feel so bad about it.

That's right. And because they've never brought it to the forefront of their thinking and never discussed it with anybody. 1 of the things that was interesting to me, you said in the book, power of regret and and and speaks to the power of it, is you regret not going to funerals.

Oh, Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I still have my own regrets about that. There is a there is a a big cathedral right near my house in Washington, DC, and there was a funeral that I didn't go to 20 years over 20 years ago. And every time I walk by, I think about, oh, my god.

I should have gone the guy's name was Bob. I should have gone to Bob's funeral.

Okay. So why does that hold such power? Because Bob wouldn't have known you were at his funeral.

No. But I knew. And you know what? I wanna be a good person. I wanna show respect for people.

Yeah. I'm gonna show respect for his family. And I didn't do that. I was at a juncture. I could the right thing, go to the funeral.

The wrong thing, keep doing my work that afternoon instead of taking 2 hours. And and now what do I do with that? I can say, it doesn't matter. Everything happens for a reason. Or I can say, I'm the worst person in the world.

No. I say, you know what? Something that I didn't didn't do 20 years ago is still bugging me when I can't even remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

Right.

That's a strong signal.

Yes. And

it's a signal that show up and go to the funeral no matter where it is.

Okay. Show up and go to the funeral. And that is how looking backward moves you forward because when you're able to to take whatever it is that is the regret and turn it into something meaningful for you. Yeah. Well, we spoke to some people who are experiencing regret right now, and Tanya is 1 of them, and she joins us from the Bronx.

Tanya, hi. Tell us what's going on. Hello.

Hi there. Hello. How are you? Good to see you.

Thank you so much, miss Winfrey, for having me. And, Daniel, what a pleasure it is to meet you, virtually. You know, it's very interesting. I when I think about the word regret, because I've done so much work on myself, I I think about when I was young, when I was 16, between 16, 21. I guess, a nicer way to put it, I was boycripsy.

And, I lost my virginity, in my opinion. Well, I think probably, across the board too too soon. I don't know, what was happening with me, but I I it was complex. I would my my dad was not at home. I'm not blaming that on that, but my life was definitely, just going through things that I couldn't explain.

And I think that was an outlet for me. And in hindsight, as a 52 year old woman now, when I look back, I definitely, say to myself, gosh, I wish I would have just saved myself for someone who I loved, someone like my spouse that I'm with now, someone who I can talk to, someone that I know is, hearing me, there for me, just accepting me as as I am, That would be my biggest regret.

I think this is so interesting, Tanya, because you have been with your spouse for how long now?

I have been with my spouse this February,

18 years. 18 years. And is it something your spouse has brought up to you? Like, I wish you'd been a virgin when we married. No.

Nope. Never. I I thought it was interesting too, and I'm sure, you know, you grew up in you know, I'm 20 years older than you, practically, but I also grew up in an era where if you liked boy there was no discussion other than you can't date until a certain age. And if you showed any interest in boys whatsoever, you were considered boy crazy. And I noticed that you used that term to describe yourself, and I was thinking, that's not a term you came up with.

That's a label somebody gave to you, and that's what you're carrying. That's part of what you're carrying. Daniel, what do you wanna say to Tanya?

Well, I mean, you know, what what we you know, in the argument First

of all, what kind of regret is this?

I mean, I think it's I think in Tanya's telling, it's a moral regret. Yeah. Alright? So you had a chance to do you know, you could do the right thing or the wrong thing, and in your view retrospectively, you think you did the wrong you you did the wrong thing. But we can also look at this in the architecture of regret as a difference between an action regret, something I did, and an inaction regret, something I didn't do.

So this is an action regret. And the way you deal with action there are 2 ways to deal with action regrets. 1 of them is to undo it. Hard to do here. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. You're not gonna unscramble this egg. Yeah. So you can't just so you can't undo that.

So the other thing you can do is what's called in the psychological literature a downward counterfactual, where you imagine, how things could have turned out worse. And so it usually starts with the sentence, at least, you know, at least you didn't get in trouble. At least you met your incredible spouse right now. And so you find essentially the silver lining in that.

Yeah. As you were as you as you were sharing your story, I was thinking, okay. At least you didn't, have the responsibility of getting pregnant and having a child and having that alter your life. Because when we were talking about these kinds of moral regrets and foundational regrets, I was thinking, I'm sure that there are a lot of people Sure. Who were promiscuous or whatever in their early years and had child after child after child without even knowing what that responsibility would be like, and you hold regrets for it.

Not regrets because you have the children, but regrets that you didn't make better choices that would allow you to better serve your children. So And you have to when you

when we think about our regrets, you you have to actually evaluate the person making the decision at that moment.

Mhmm.

And that's

a different you're a different person today at age 52 than you were at age Mhmm. 16, unfortunately. You know, the other thing that you can do you know, the other thing that people can do here with regrets that can't be undone is transmit these your understanding and your lessons to other people. That is be open about talking about the regret, and extract a lesson from it, and see if people are interested in hearing that lesson.

I also think it's important for you to go back and understand what happened to you, book that doctor Bruce Perry and I coauthored together. What happened to you to cause you to be in what you call your boy crazy phase? Because that also happened to me, and up until, I was, like, I was sexually assaulted from 10 to 14. And during that time, like, 13 to 14, I became really sexually promiscuous. And for many years, I blamed myself for that promiscuity.

Like, I was a bad girl. What I now know what I now know is if you have been assaulted as a child and, you know, led into that whole sexual realm, that that is a that is almost a natural thing that that shows up with young girls. And so when I see young girls that are labeled, you know, you're a bad girl or she's she they they used to say in my my generation, you're just too fast. You're too fast. You're too fast.

I always know when it's very, very young that there's something else going on beneath the surface there that's causing that. And you had mentioned that your father was not there, and, you know, you suffered that loss. And lots of times, you deal with it in different ways. When you're a young kid, you don't know the reason why I'm acting out is I'm looking for somebody to love me and to value me and to say that I'm okay because I'm not getting it from my father or my mother. So if I were you, I'd look back at the why, and that releases, number 1, for me, released a lot of the shame, and certainly me blaming myself for something that happened that, basically, I had no control over at that time.

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And I will also tell you that I had just learned the term boy crazy. I would say promiscuous. But as I said it, it sounds very dirty, and I didn't like the way it sounded.

But it

made me feel really dirty to use the word promiscuous. So and and you sharing that word and you saying it and defining yourself

Yeah.

Makes me feel, there's some comfort there because the word promiscuous sounds just

not

nice. And I thought boy crazy sounded Yeah. Softer. Yeah. And a little more

But you were doing that you were acting out for a reason. You were acting out for a reason. That happened to you for a reason. And so, you know, you shouldn't, you know, try to figure that out here with us, but you should work on that for yourself. What is the reason that you were acting out in in that way?

Thank you for being willing to share with us today. Thank you.

Thank you for

having me. Thank you. Okay. Thanks, Tanya. Kathy is a mother of 2 who also has deep regrets about time loss.

Kathy, what's your story?

I, my husband was diagnosed with glioblastoma in February of 2020, and, I think my biggest regret was it took something like that to, realize how is not really present most of my life. I I did have the good fortune of spending the last he actually lasted 23 months, and, which is unheard of a glioblastoma. But I felt like all the time before that, raising my 2 wonderful children, one's a teacher in the Bronx, one's an aspiring actress in LA, that I just was going through checking lists, like, trying to, even, like, outrun myself with accomplishing things. And it it took my husband who was coming home saying, I have a headache, and I'm like, take Tylenol. I got something to do.

You know? It took something like getting the diagnosis February 20, 2020 of glioblastoma to say, like, stop. Just stop. And I feel like I wanna forgive myself. My kids are wonderful.

We had a wonderful relationship, but I go back and I think to myself, I wish

I would have just, really just savored the moments, the the unbelievable moments. Sorry. Take your time. Just take your time. And you know what?

I I try to recover. Like, we took everyone. Joe was the most wonderful, kind person. Like, I was

so lucky to have him in

my life and wonderful father. But I think to myself, well, part of me doing this is because I, he deserves, like to continue to live, if you will. And I think

he deserves his legacy deserves not to disappear. But I just I go back and they say, why did I not just stop? I I don't know what it is. Is it a woman thing that, like, you're trying to just outdo yourself? You have a million things going on.

You're working full time. You're raising kids. And, like, I just wish it didn't take something like a devastating diagnosis and subsequent loss

Oh, Kathy. To make me stop. Kathy, Kathy, Kathy, thank you so much for being willing to share, and this is a podcast about the power of regret. Daniel Pink has written a really important book with a profound study about regrets all over the world. So naturally, you're gonna have tears, and we appreciate you being so open to share today because you're gonna you're you're gonna you're gonna really help a lot of other people to see themselves differently because of what you've shared here.

What category is this? What

So I think this is a connection regret. It's a regret about, not doing something to keep a relationship in intact. The best remedy for this, I think, is something called self compassion. Self compassion is very simple. Treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt.

It's that simple. Alright? And so if you think about your self talk, what what is your self talk, my hunch, Kathy, is cruel. It's vicious. It's mean spirited.

Alright? Here's what the research on self compassion says about that kind of self talk. Don't do that. Alright? And the reason to don't do that is because it's not effective.

What's effective is

Yeah.

Self compassion. And a way to think about that is is to take it if if you had a friend who came to you with this situation, what would you tell her?

Yeah. You're doing the best you can.

Exactly. And

that's you know what? I feel like I don't I really I know I focused when it was important, and ours was

a love story to be

told. And, it's just like I think about when he used

to go food shopping, and

I like, it didn't really appreciate it. I hate food shopping. And every time I'm going down and finding people for a loaf of bread, I'm like, oh my god, Joe. Like, why didn't I just, like, really appreciate you doing this or painting the house? I made him paint this house, like, 55 times.

And, and

you know what? He we

were good, and we said what we had to say to each other, and there was nothing left unsaid. But, yeah, I just hope

I could share with other people that, like, all this stuff we run around and

do is just so not important.

You can all you can share with other people also. I think 1 of the 1 of the 1 of the lessons for regret, particularly when it comes to to relationships, it's it's very simple to articulate. So when in doubt, reach out. So if there's somebody you're thinking about and you're saying, should I give that person a call, in any part of your life, if you've reached that juncture, the answer is yes. Do it.

There's also something to be said for saying it now. You have a regret about not saying something at the moment, so say it now. And and the best way to help other people is to exemplify that behavior by reaching out and by by saying it now. The other thing, I'm I'm sorry, but don't disrespect the work you did building a career and building a family. I mean, that's actually really that's actually really important.

And I don't want you to think of that as something that was somehow a betrayal of your husband or your family. It was something that actually fortified your husband and and family.

Well, 1 of the things that that really has struck me about what you were saying earlier, I can't believe that this is what it took. And, yeah, this is what it took. This is what it took. This is what it took for you to slow down and to stop and to want to live a more present filled life and to be there in a way for the rest of your family and for yourself in ways that you could not before. So, yes, this is what it took.

And the reason you know that is because this is now where you are. You've had that realization. And so I say, bless your husband for being able to bring this to light for you so that the rest of your days can be spent in a fullness of being for yourself that you would not have had had you not had this experience. This was his parting gift to you, not to be regretted, but to be embraced. Yeah.

Not to be regretted.

Well, he's a gift that keeps on giving. As Andrew Garfield says about his mom, Joe is the best of us.

Yes. That's great. Thank you so much. Thank you so so much, Kathy. You.

Thank you. Alright. Kelly, a mom to 1 teenage son, says that she is constantly haunted by the by the what ifs, the what ifs, the what ifs. Tell us about that, Kelly.

Hi. Thank you both so much for taking the time, to speak with me today. I really appreciate it. This is, you know, I was young. I was I married my high school sweetheart in my early twenties and, he was in the military and I became an officer's wife in, in 2,001.

And this was right before 911 happened. So at that time, the priority seemed, it seems that, the priority should be his career. It should be the things that were going on at the time. So I stepped back, I played small, I played the supporting role, and I continued doing that for for years and, I don't you know, what I was doing felt like it was it was valuable. It was important that it was serving a purpose, and I was grateful for the people and experiences that I had.

But when when my husband left, I was not prepared necessarily for the life that I had at that moment of of making myself a priority. And it's been a struggle since Last meaning divorce? Divorce? Yes. Yes.

So I keep asking myself, well, what if I had what if I had finished my degree before I had gotten married? What if I had gone back to school at any point? What if I had, listened to my intuitions? What if I had stood up for myself? And what if I saw value in my place in, my marriage and and what I was doing at that time?

And and how would that have, better prepared me for the life that I was living afterwards? And so even now, I still struggle. Like, I I still struggle to make, the things that I value, my art, my writing. I still I still struggle to make them, the way that I want and put them out there without trying to make myself small and and fit in. So I feel like I'm on the cusp of this new transformation of moving forward still and it's still holding me back.

The the what if, like, what if I had done these things earlier? Would I be better prepared?

I heard you told the producers that you feel like you've spent most of your adulthood in the passenger seat. Mhmm. And so you're asking what if you had actually taken the driver's seat?

That's right. Yes. What if I even at at different points, even if I had just taken the driver's seat and said, you know what? I wanna go back and I wanna finish my degree, and I wanted to start a career. What if I had done any of those things at, various different points through those years?

Well, you're not alone because in Daniel's study of people throughout the world, this is a big this is the what ifs is a big, big, big, big, big

And it's kind of a it's kind of a boldness regret. That is making yourself small is in some ways the opposite of being bold. And Yes. We have a lot of regrets in this database, Kelly, of that remind that just reminds me of people using the phrase speak up, speaking up, spoken up. And so but so what would it mean for you to, like, not be small right now?

Like, not not an emotion, but an action. What would that mean? What step would you wanna take?

I, I finished, I finished a book. I'm about a 110,000 words in, and I have it. And I'm right on that verge of feeling like I wanna get it out there, but there's something that keeps still holding me back from

Okay. Can I get in here? Alright.

You're you're in here. You have the mic, sir.

Okay. So this is this is sort of this is sort of out of the the the pages of my own book. Yeah. I'm gonna tell you something that I've told that I told to my daughters when they were younger. I have 2 daughters and a son.

I've told somebody I told my daughters when they were when they were when they were they were younger, and they were like, oh, I don't know if I should apply for this. I don't know whether I should ask to be a research assistant. I don't know if I and I and I I say to them, what would a mediocre guy in your situation do? And it was always like raise their hand. Yes.

And it's like, so what would a mediocre guy believe me. A mediocre guy in your situation who's written a 110,000 words would already be out there. So you need to be out there and, like, doing everything you can to get that book out there so you can be a guest on ep on season 3 of this of this of this podcast. And so 1 of the things it's it's interesting as a as a writer. 1 of the things, in with a Kindle or the ebooks is you can see what people underline.

Yes. Yeah. I like that. And I I find it interesting. In this book, 1 of the things that people underline was not something that I wrote.

And it was a Chinese proverb that goes like this, and it reminds me of your dilemma here, Kelly, is the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. So if you wanna get your book out there, get it out now. If you wanna go back to school, get it out now. And use that that feeling, that spear of regret as a catalyst for starting now.

Not waiting for the perfect moment because there isn't a perfect moment.

And you were mentioning your art. Is that is that your art behind you, that painting? Did you do that painting?

Oh. It is. That's what that's what is my paintings. Yes.

I love that. The is the barn your painting? The barn?

The barn is my painting.

I love that barn that remind you know what that reminds me like of a of a Harper Bond, you know, the a Hopper Hopper. You know Hopper. Yes.

Edward Hopper. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of a Hopper. It's sort of a Edward Hopper meets Andrew Wyeth.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So that is what Daniel Pink just said about your work.

Edward Hopper meets Andrew Wyeth.

Noted art historian, Daniel Pink.

Really. So thank you so much for sharing.

Yeah.

Alright?

And congrats on finishing a book. That's an amazing thing. Then get it out to the world because the world the you you owe it to the world to do that. You have a moral obligation to put that in the world.

Okay. Thank you. I appreciate you.

Okay. Get in the driver's seat, Kelly. Yeah. Get in the driver's seat.

No 1 sitting in the driver's seat now.

Kelly, take the wheel. Kelly, take the wheel. Thank you so much. Laurie now joins us. Laurie, hi there.

Zooming in from Dallas, Texas. Your biggest regret? I am. We love that hot pink girl. Hot pink

against the woman that's there. I am so grateful and full of gratitude to be here with you guys today and talk about my regret. Mine's a little bit different than the other guest. Mine is financial. I have always been a big dreamer and chased after my dreams.

I'm an interior designer. I'm an entrepreneur. I started, I've done all the things. I I started a, nonprofit, and I'm proud of the work that I've done because it always holds compassion. All the things that I want to do, I I I want to help other people.

And so, I guess, my biggest regret is looking back and thinking why didn't I go the corporate route? Why didn't I get the 401 k? You know? Why didn't I do all of those things that I feel like I was supposed to do, and be a little bit more stable in my life being a single mom and just moving forward, not having the regrets of all the things that I've that I've tried to do because of my big grandiose dreams. You know?

Mhmm. So that's where I'm at.

So it sounds a little bit like a foundation regret, which are the small decisions or indecisions we make that accumulate to bad consequences. But I don't know. I I I have to say, I don't really buy the idea that you should have gone in just talking to you for 60 seconds. Yeah. That you should have gone into a corporate

Like, with a 401 k. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. But I I so imagine I

would buy into it because of the hot pink you're wearing.

I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I do you think your regrets would be deeper about not pursuing your dreams, about not living a life fully if you had if you had been, if you had been an actuary at the Amalgamated Widget Company?

Yeah. Well well, yeah. No. I don't think I would've sit in there, but, you know, I think taking risk part because I've done so much, work, the taking risk part, I do love. I just feel the failure, you know?

Like, why didn't my big dreams that I've wanted to do just blossom into what the I want

So is it because now you're regretting not having more security? Yes. More security and a safety net. Okay. So your your your your main question to Daniel is what?

What do you want from him today?

I just would like to know how to move forward and not allow these worries to weigh down on my soul and to continue on my path Yeah. And my goals.

I mean, what I what I would say what I would say is when it comes to, like, saving, and and, I mean, you're young, start now, that, that a dollar a week is saving. So start now, and do it. I mean, we know a lot about sort of the behavior science behind this is do it automatically. The other thing that I'm hearing from you is a kind of a, sort of almost maybe a little too much exploration and a little and some and too little focus. So if you have multiple lanes, pick a lane for the moment, and just focus hard on on that.

It's not we we tend to think that pursuing your dreams and being kind of diligent and responsible are at odds with with each other, when in fact, they actually work together really well. That the best way to pursue your dreams and be bold is to be diligent and show up and do your work. And so, and so the lesson of foundation regrets is is do the work, and the lesson of boldness regrets is is take the chance. But if you take the chance and do the work at the same time, you're gonna be you're gonna be fine. And once again, as I was saying to, I think it was Kelly, the, start now.

Like, this is not a kind of thing that you that, okay. When I feel right, when I'm in the mood, is basically start now. As soon as you get off the Zoom, man, start.

Yeah. Right. Pick 1.

Yes. I I I does that sound does does that sound reasonable to you?

Yes. Absolutely. It sounds reasonable reasonable to me. I just I don't ever want to not be a risk taker. I've done so much work around my personal growth and my spiritual growth that I I still have it in me to want to, you know, save the world and be an Oprah a little bit, maybe like a mini Oprah or something.

You know, really have the compassion to wanna help people. So there's that

You do it from where you are. Exactly. You do it from where you are, exactly where you are. Right. Extending yourself in grace and kindness in the smallest ways and then any other way you can, and and and let that be your goal is how do I use my life in service to something or someone that's bigger than myself?

That's all it is.

How do

I do that? And you have this bold what? Bold. You have the boldness of personality. You, you know, have a radiance about you.

You have an energy force that we can feel just sitting here talking to you, and you should be using that as you have used it in the past and, you know, go forward and do the work. That's that's what you gotta do.

Thank you so much. I'm so grateful to have this opportunity with y'all. I appreciate it more than you'll ever know.

I love it that you you called us y'all. Thank you so much.

No. I did.

Alice, thank you, Laurie. So what did you learn about your own regrets while writing and researching for the power of regret?

That I'm not that special. That that almost every regret that I have, I can find in that database.

Mhmm. -Really? -Yeah. -That you were like the 26,000 other people.

-That we -Are all the same in that. Most people are like most people. And l'm most people. I have regrets about kindness, but l saw that in the database. I have regrets about not acting boldly and not speaking up for things that mattered.

But there are other people like that, that, you know, I'm like everybody else.

Well, yeah, I realize that about myself, too. And what I have found is, you know, my deepest my deepest, deepest regret is that I didn't take the time when I ended the Oprah show before I started the next thing. That is my deepest, deepest regret. And the reason why it carries and holds such power for me is because I thought about it and thought about it and I thought about it, and I didn't listen to my own inner voice, my own instinct about it, and I listened to everybody else. And every time I've ever made a mistake that I regretted, either large or small, and this was the biggest 1, any time I've done that is when I diverted from listening to the still, small voice that lives inside of all of us.

And I did the thing that everybody said, well, you have to launch now, and you have to do it now, and you have to And I have regretted it for 14 years. I've regretted it.

And as singular as that is Yeah. It's prevalent. And we if I were to go pull up this database right now and look for the phrase, listen to a voice, inner voice, whatever, you would see dozens upon dozens upon dozens that we have this intuitive sense of what's right. That we wanna listen to ourselves.

And I do, and I believe in that, and I follow that, and the 1 the 1 time I didn't, I deeply regret it.

It's it's, it's almost at the core of a lot of these. So that at some level, we know what the right thing is to do. We know that we should be bold. We know that we should be responsible. Moral.

And our little our inner voice is telling us that, and yet there's noise on the outside or countervailing voices on the coming at us, and we don't do that. And then we regret it.

Yeah. And then you're mad at yourself.

And and and arguably, you should be. Because you do better. I agree. Because you do better. Now you don't have to be now you should be constructively mad at yourself.

You shouldn't, you know, it's it shouldn't be self flagellation. It should be it should be sort of irritation in the service of action.

Yeah. And I I am compassionate enough with myself to know it was a mistake, and I understand what the real mistake was. The real mistake was you heard the voice, you felt it inside yourself, and you acted differently than what you knew to be Right. True.

Right. You also had I mean, again, you also there's also a lot of momentum behind that. Yeah. And so when you do something for a long time, particularly at the obviously, at the level that you did it, there's a lot of momentum carrying you forward. Yeah.

And it takes actually greater force to stop the momentum. Stop the momentum

and go in a different direction. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in all of your work, 7 books, what do you know for sure that matters the most?

That To you and to other people?

I have to say, like, I like to think of my books in some level about science and economics, but every single book that I've written has come back to meaning. Peoples want meaning in their life. They wanna figure out why they're here. They wanna actually spend their time wisely.

Yeah. It's why I'm doing this podcast at this stage in my life. It's because I know how important meaning is, and I think we're at a we're at a time where some people are lost and still trying to figure that out, and you're trying to get meaning from social media, and, you know,

I see that.

Right.

Yeah. And that's what we are You know, we are here on this planet for a vanishingly short amount of time. We really are. And at some level, all of us, either consciously or unconsciously, are reckoning with their mortality. And And you wanna have You wanna have spent your time in a meaningful way.

And so stuff that I've written looking at, like economic research and neuroscience research, so much of it comes back to the fact that we are mortal creatures looking for a sense of meaning and a sense of love.

That's why we're here. Yeah. And in the end, it what really matters, and I've heard this over and over and read it, and I remember a wonderful, Toni Morrison novel, the Song of Solomon, where in that book, 1 of the characters, the granddaughter, dies, and the proclamation that the grandmother makes at her funeral is, and she was loved. And I remember the first time I read that, I thought, that's really all that matters, all the awards, all the attention, all the things that people are striving to get and have to do and be. In the end, what you want is to know that you were

loved. And that you And l think also that you loved other people.

And that you loved other people.

Because it's like a cascade out there. It all flips.

Yeah, it boils down to who did you love and who loved you. Absolutely. I love the the last paragraph of, the power of regret. You say, after a few years immersed in the science and experience of our most misunderstood emotion, I have discovered about myself what I've discovered about others. Regret makes me human, regret makes me better, and regret gives me hope.

Thank you for the power of regret.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for coming to the Tea House. All right. Okay. So I love when a conversation inspires us to live more intentionally. And those of you who've listened, I know that many of you are gonna be inspired by what you've heard from Daniel and our other guests today.

Thank you all for sharing your stories. The Power of Regret is available now anywhere books are sold. And The Life You Want, Becoming Unstuck Journal is available on Amazon. Thanks, everyone, for listening and watching us on YouTube. I hope you'll subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen, and we'll see you next week.

Go well, everybody.