Transcript of 679: Kat Cole - From Hooters Waitress to $500M CEO, You're Interviewing for Your Next Job Every Day, Learning vs. Ego, The Four Key Mindsets for Senior Leaders, and The Journey of Who You Become

Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com. Now on to tonight's featured leader, one of my favorites. It's Kat Cole, CEO of AG1. When she was hired at AG1 a few years ago, they were doing $160 million in revenue. Now they're doing more more than $500 million a year. Before that, she was president of Cinnabon and Focus Brands, and before that, she started as a Hooters waitress who earned an MBA before her undergraduate degree. I do not know anyone else who's done that. We first recorded together in December 2015, more than a decade ago. It's episode number 78, one of my all-time favorites. We chose to do it again. During this conversation, we discuss the questions she asks and what she listens for in executive interviews and how they reveal whether someone can actually do the thing or just talk about it. I love that Kat took us inside the room for this. And then the 2 questions she asked before every career move that have nothing to do with money or title.

I think this would be helpful for you.

And then how she adapted her communication style at Hooters to neutralize opposition without confrontation and what it taught her about leading in any environment. I think this story could be super helpful for someone, especially when you may find yourself in a situation where somebody opposes you for no reason at all, which is the case for Kat. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Kat Cole. This episode is brought to you by my friends at Insight Global. Insight Global is staffing and professional services company dedicated to being the light to the world around them. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through talent or technical services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. Hiring can be tough, but hiring the right person can be magic. Visit insightglobal.com/learningleader today to learn more. That's insightglobal.com/learningleader.

Kat, it's, uh, it's so good to see you. Welcome back on The Learning Leader Show.

Thanks for having me.

11 years ago, I mean, 2015 was our first conversation. That's wild to me to think about.

That's bananas.

I know. Well, speaking of your life and what's changed, you go join AG1. Correct me if these numbers aren't fully right. I believe when you joined, the revenue was $160 million in 2021. Yep. And now are you guys doing like $600+ a year million?

Yeah, we, we just, you know, for what we communicate, we are doing over half a billion in revenue for several years and profitable. So it's been a pretty wild ride. We've over 3x'd. The business.

I mean, that's an insane amount of growth. What do you feel like has been the key or the keys to that?

It's the product, man. It's like, because there have been so many times that we weren't doing things as well as we could be, certain marketing approaches or even channels, right? We were in one channel for 15 years, only D2C.

Yeah.

80% of retail is in brick and mortar retail. So we're doing that volume in, you know, less than 20% of where the transactions happen. And so arguably we were limiting ourselves in a lot of ways. And so what that points to is a lot of people who love the product and keep buying it for a long time and who tell their friends. There is no way you get to those numbers in that short of a time without customers who make this a very serious, consistent part of their lives and have for years, right? So there's compounding revenue, there's compounding growth year over year from existing customers from previous years. And then they tell their mom or they tell their sister or they tell their husband and they tell their aunt. And then yes, we still keep investing and try to get better at traditional business marketing and growth. But you don't get our level of growth and success at that scale. It gets really hard to keep growing at that scale without people being really happy with the product. So that's it. There's a lot of other things on top of it, but that's the one variable that you can't remove and get the same outcome.

You can't market your way out of that not being true, right?

It's almost like with book sales, the author can exceed the market But Atomic Habits doesn't happen, or The Psychology of Money doesn't happen if the book isn't amazing, right? Because that's really what's going to cause it to spread is word of mouth. And it feels like that's what you've done a good job with.

Yeah, totally. It's trusted recommendations. And yeah, it's a really good analogy. When I think about Atomic Habits or I think about a great book, you know, you get people going on podcasts, you get people talking about it, and that totally spreads the word. But where the real volume comes from is people who are just telling their friends or recommending it to their teams and their companies. And that's where real scale and sustainable growth comes from.

I reread all of your blog posts. I know you stopped publishing as you become, uh, CEO, but so fancy.

Less time to, less time.

But I would love if you started that back up, by the way, just selfishly. But anyway, one of 'em was though, that's it. That I could be— you said you're not going to do that more?

Oh no, I said I miss it. It's like so crazy work and kids and all of that, and I do miss crystallizing and sharing thoughts in writing.

Do you write to yourself but keep it to yourself now, or just with your company, or, or no, you, you just kind of slowed down on the writing?

Just slowed down on the writing. I still do open thinking time and reflection time and my form of journaling where I'm just putting thoughts down, but I'm not writing in any way to publish. And I do miss it, and I do know it also helps continually crystallize thinking. So you become a better thinker when you force yourself to write in a way that is most digestible to people. But gosh, I think the last time I published was, and now I just call it my archive because there's nothing active there, was, maybe 21 or 22. And that's when my daughter— my daughter got really, really sick in 2020, and then again dealing with it through '21. And so between that, changing roles, having two kids at that time under four, I was like, something's got to go. And so that was it. But I, I do believe the things that I did take the time to publish are timeless.

Yeah.

And as relevant today as they were when I wrote them.

One of the things you've written about was a framework, an exercise for making decisions, both at work as well as for your career. And you made the decision to go to AG1, then you also made the decision again to stay there and get the elevated role. Now you're running the whole company as the CEO. I am curious to hear your framework in decision-making matrix, I guess, for why you went there and then why you've stayed and taken the CEO job?

I have two frameworks, one that's published in my archive Substack that is helping people in particular with career decisions. I mean, it's life decisions, but mostly the people who were coming to me over a couple decades as it relates to that piece of content were the people saying, what should I do? Or me watching the people I was leading navigate changes in their lives, what they thought they wanted, helping them get to what they really wanted. Was it income? Was it title? Is it ego? Is it sense of growth? Is it learning? So one of the frameworks is this idea that between financial needs, your ability to learn or contribute, and your ego or optics, that there are questions you can ask yourself about a particular moment, opportunity, or situation that will help you be a bit sharper in what you actually want and what is actually best for you versus what just looks like what's best next on the surface. So that's one framework. And the other is just these two questions I would ask myself over time. And that is, is my work done here? And can someone else do what the company needs next better than I can?

That's a quick exercise. The first one, you need to think and write it down and, you know, might take some time. And it's why I put together a little sheet and some columns for people to use as a starter document. But the other's super quick. And I remember, you know, I was at Hooters for 14 years, had, I don't know, 9 or 10 different roles when I was there, becoming an executive about halfway through. And there were many times I had the opportunity to leave or that something would happen in the company that would make me wonder, should I leave, even if I didn't have an active role that I was being recruited for. It's just like, oh, this isn't good, or I wonder where the company's going. I'm not sure if this is right for me. And so I would ask some version of those two questions. Is my work done here? Like, do I just feel like I've done all I can? I've left it on the field. And then could someone else do a better job for what the company needs next? Not now, but next, right? Because if you're taking a moment to consider, what you're really asking about is remarrying the role, remarrying the person, the company.

And so can someone else do what the company needs next better than I can? For many years in that window, the answer to at least one of those questions was no. No, my work isn't done here, or no, there isn't someone, honestly, candidly, if I'm trying to be objective, that could come in and do what the company needs next better than me. But if the answer was yes to one of those, then that would guide me toward pushing a change of change in my role, a change in the way I showed up, a change in myself that helped me then find that next stop. Like, of course I wanted a next opportunity, but sometimes it was right there in the company where I already was, where I already had institutional knowledge and relationships and traction, but something was changing in the company or something was changing in me that meant the role or the construct needed. My work here is done and someone else could do a better job for what the company needs next. And so then I went to Cinnabon. And then I, same thing, I went to within the same company but became the COO and president over 9 presidents, over the multi-billion dollar company.

And that was another version of that where I could have stayed running brands and being a president of brands that people knew and that were big. And that felt interesting and enticing. But yet being the COO of the parent company, while the parent company was less known. If I were to say Cinnabon, people would go, oh, or Auntie Anne's, oh my gosh. If I say Focus Brands, they're like, what's that? Yet it was a bigger role, a more complex role, but the ego part, right, I had to consider. There was a moment where I had the opportunity to go run multiple franchise brands or run a new entrepreneurial division within the company. Financially, it was similar, but the ego, the optics, and how much I would be stretched were very different. And I chose that different role, right? Lesser known, smaller team, bigger stretch, more learning. But that's what bridged me into consumer packaged goods, which ultimately was an ingredient in me being ready years later for something like the role at AG1.

I heard, tell me if it's true, that the founder of AG1 heard you on a podcast and said, man, she's amazing. And then asked for an introduction. Then Sahil Bloom, who's been on the show, was able to help make that introduction.

And that's how this—

is that how this happened?

Is that, is that true?

That is true. Wow. Um, he heard me, he heard me on a couple podcasts back to back and he knew Sahil and asked if Sahil knew me and he did. And Sahil made the intro and that was February or March of 2021. And I just so happened to be taking time off. I had been at Focus Brands running those companies. For 10 years, and my daughter had been very sick. I'd led the company through COVID. My mom had breast cancer. I mean, there was so much, so much life that I, my husband and I navigated that I was ready for a break. I'd been running businesses, like operating really in operations since I was a teenager, and it felt right to take a beat, although I didn't take much of a beat because I started advising founders and Sahil knew that, so he figured it would be an appropriate introduction. And little did he know I had been a customer of what was then called Athletic Greens for 2 years. So I didn't know much about the company, but I loved the product. So when the founder reached out and said, will you help? We're growing and I need more leadership expertise.

I need more branding expertise. I need more operational chops in the company. I was like, of course, I love the product. I'd love to help you. But that's all I thought it was. I thought it was just an advisory role among many. That I had with growth-stage founder-led businesses. And then after a few months, you know, he, like any good founder, was like, "Come help me build this. We need you. We'll be better if you're here." And I paused for a moment and thought and talked to my husband about it and thought, I don't know, it's small. Everything I've done is so much bigger. It wasn't small, right? $160 million in revenue is not small, but it is infinitesimally small compared to the multibillion-dollar businesses I had run. And so it was less about it being small or less known and more about is this the highest and best best use of my skills is scale my thing. And will I be as helpful and impactful in a team of— at the time, I think it was 70 or 80 people. And I'd run departments bigger than that whole company. And so I just wasn't sure, but I was intrigued and interested and passionate about health, about wellness.

I'd been on my own health and nutrition journey because of my mom, because of having kids later in life and miscarriages in between. I super serious about nutrition and definitely the target customer. So my husband reflected back to me when I was considering this. He's like, you're one, you're already acting like you run the company. Two, you're a passionate customer. You have already advised the team. So, you know, you've, you're learning who you're going to be working with. This isn't a cold start. And how baller is it to get in still at the ground floor when really you've been running companies that were already scaled? Getting in early is incredible for many reasons. And so he helped me go, okay, questioning this is ridiculous. It, of course I should do this. It feels right. It is right. And so I jumped in and became president and COO and joined the founder in November of '21. And we raised a big round, valued the company at over $1 billion, which was pretty wild for a, you know, a business of that scale. And then as time went on, the founder stepped back. I stepped in, became CEO, really refounded and evolved the business to go from a single product, single channel to multi-product, multichannel.

And again, we've 3x'd the business in 4 years and profitably.

I had a mentor, his name's Rex Caswell, and he said, you are interviewing. He hired me for my first ever real job after I got done playing college football. And he said, you are interviewing for your next job every single day. Never ever forget that with everything that you do. And I was a little young. I didn't really get it. But that's what that sounds like to me. You go on a podcast probably to have a good conversation with a few people, just like we're doing right here.. And you have no idea, though. You have no idea who might be listening. You have no idea who might say, I need to meet her. Right? She could maybe help. So I'd love for you to riff on this idea of you're interviewing for your next job every day.

That makes me think of two tracks. One track is this idea that life is like a series of these, whatever you want to call it, like the butterfly effect or dominoes or one thing leads to another, leads to another, leads to another, and there are very few true shortcuts in life. And so, I have a deep appreciation, maybe not interviewing for the next role, but that whatever I'm doing now, that choice of time, that tone of voice, that decision, how I show up or don't, that creates an impact that then leads to an experience and a belief and people's actions and then results. And that keeps happening and eventually leads to something and something and something else. So it makes me think of that, that it's just generally true in life. The kindness to someone in the airport and what they then go do as a result. The extension of a caring note to someone who's struggling. And you hear all these stories, right, of people who are in very dark places or who are having a lot of challenges. And a teacher, a friend, a stranger, someone said, I see something in you, or gives a compliment or is kind, and it derails someone out of that dark place.

And then the other is true very opportunistically, like something that's good, there's an opportunity. And because you're the one who sent the email or you're the one who made the phone call or you're the one who made the ask, You're the one who got the opportunity. So the idea of what you do today is interviewing for your next thing makes me think of that truth, that just general truth in life and how much that motivates me to put good in the world. Even in tough moments and tough conversations, it's just remembering that. The other thing it makes me think of more specifically to careers and opportunity I remember a time when I was an executive at Hooters and I was young, you know, I was 26 when I became a vice president of that company doing about $800 million in revenue. And most of my peers were in their 50s and 60s, so maybe a couple in their early 40s. And so literally people that were my peers had been in business longer than I'd been alive. That age gap, And life stage, more importantly than age, life stage gap was always a much more noticeable difference for me than gender, even though I was, you know, the only woman in the boardroom for a long time.

And so I remember one particular leader who was in his early 60s. So he, he was definitely the top of been in business longer than I'd been alive. And he wasn't a big fan of me being in the role. He made it known in very subtle ways that he thought were subtle that were actually not so subtle in private conversations. He would say things like, oh, she's too much of a cheerleader, not sure why she's in this role, right? And it would get back to me because I had such trusted relationships deep within the company. And I remember being hurt by that and being frustrated, but also knowing I can't change him very likely, but I can change me. And I went in, and while I didn't confront him and say, "I heard you said XYZ," right away— eventually I would— I just changed myself. Like, I thought, am I too much of a cheerleader? Am I too excited? Maybe there is something about my approach that's not helping me, obviously, with relationships here. So I went into his office and I spoke more slowly, and I asked him questions instead of made exciting statements.

And at the end of that that meeting where I changed my communication style, I remember him standing up and as we were walking out and saying something like, "This has been a good chat." And while I wanted to roll my eyes so hard they'd hit the back of my head because I'm like, it's no different, like the content's no different, it was like the work got done. What became true over time is he never became my fan. But he was no longer a detractor and a negative speaker and an obstacle. So I had effectively neutralized a completely ridiculous and immature, unprofessional dynamic, but it allowed the work to get done. So your question— the second track of thought I have, and the reason I'm sharing that story, is it also is about control what you can control. Sometimes it's not about everyone loving you and bowling everyone over. It is about what can I do to get the work done? And I, I wasn't violating my values. I wasn't becoming someone I was not, right? I just chilled out my communication style a little bit and it worked. And the reality is when you do work in different countries with different generations and different people, you do need command over your style.

You do need to learn how to turn things up and turn things down over time. And it was a skill that I I needed, and that, that confrontation and that situation allowed me to build and then have confidence in without feeling small, but rather, I'm just gonna speak to him differently because he can't handle my energy. And so that's okay.

Did he make you better?

It's a good question. Um, I mean, if you use that story, it would suggest that that moment and his inability to understand how someone so young could be in such a senior role. And again, understandably, it was unusual that it did force me to build a muscle that likely allowed me to be even more effective in the business world. And there was a time later, maybe 12, 18 months later, where we were at a company event, a manager's conference, and he was sitting at the bar having a beer, and I walked up to him. And, you know, things had been chill for a long time. And I remember saying something like, hey, I just want you to know that it got back to me. Because I am also like, he should know when you say things, they can get back to people. But it wasn't right to address that in the moment and make it more confrontational, at least by my judgment. But I did tell him, there were things you said that some version of them, right or wrong, got back to me. And I appreciate how we work together now, and I'm sure I won't have to hear those things again.

And we did a little cheer, right? And it was— there's a quiet power in that and an ability to have restraint and wanting to like, hmm, you know, you're saying negative things and that's not fair. And just controlling what I can control to get the work done because we had to make decisions for franchisees at a very challenging time while we were growing. We had an airline, we had a casino. I mean, it was crazy. And so just work needed to get done, a lot of work. A lot of new decisions needed to be made that required cooperation. And then when I felt things had been smooth, like, you know, he should know, he should know when you do things like that, they do get back. You're not super secret and you're not protected in any way. And that made me feel better addressing it in a calm way. And, you know, he was He was cool. I outlasted him and several others in that company, right, right or wrong.

Yeah. Well, one of the things you do now as the senior person in charge is it's so critical that you surround yourself with exceptional leaders. Kate was telling me beforehand that you hired the CMO from Yeti that now works on your team. I'm curious, in a more general level, for— let's start with the senior people, so the ones that report directly to you. What are some of the must-have attributes? Obviously, like table stakes, they gotta be like, okay, your CMO's gotta be a great marketer. They gotta understand marketing. But beyond that, what are some of the must-have attributes in the people that you're gonna hire to be on your senior leadership team?

I'm not sure if you and I have talked about this in past chats, but in general, I believe the most effective people, and I don't use the word successful intentionally because that has weird connotations when people hear it. So impactful, right? People who are effective, whatever that means to them, are able to embody, bring forward, and effectively blend these 4 characteristics or mindsets. And it's humility, curiosity, courage, and confidence. And some version of that list of 4 things you'll hear from many leaders, many people in behavioral science and I look for those things and I ask about them and I ask for situations that will reveal to me that they can flex those things up and down, that they're self-aware of those attributes. And it's interesting because humility and curiosity, they're related but different, right? Humility is the mindset. There are likely things I don't know. I am likely better with others. I don't have it all myself. And curiosity is the act of expressing that belief. I'm asking questions, I'm wondering. Courage and confidence, same thing. Confidence, the belief that we can figure it out, not just me, but the belief that things will work out and that we'll figure it out.

And courage is that in action, saying something that's unpopular, making a decision even when it's not certain or unknown, saying yes to a thing. And even if you don't have the capabilities, So these things are related. And I look for, especially at that level, right, a C-suite level, someone who's leading other leaders, they're going to hire other people, their leadership and their style trickles far into the organization. I mean, I look for— it sounds like a tough standard, but I look for mastery over those things and a level of self-awareness. And that's tough to really know for sure, but you can get at it with questions and reference checks and asking people to tell stories about situations, and you can get a pretty good sense. So those 4 mindsets—humility, curiosity, courage, and confidence, or characteristics—are table stakes for me. And I re—by the time they get to me through an interview process, they've been vetted. To your point, they have very high technical capability. We've got whole panels of what we call bar raisers. I think that was taken maybe from Amazon or some great company of people who have very high standards in a particular area.

And are a part of a group or a council that help vet top talent. And so by the time they get to me, I validate some of those things and I push on areas where I'm looking for true, like, future-leaning levels of expertise where it may not even be common today, but I wanna know they're gonna lead for the future, not just be really good at a way of working from the past. But I, I really spend time on humility, curiosity, courage, and confidence.

Could you take me inside the room when you're having those conversations? Now, I know they're vetted. They're probably really, really good before they get to you. I mean, you still probably have to say no every once in a while, right? You don't just rubber stamp these things. So could you take me inside the room? I'd just love to hear, like, you're such a curious person and such a thoughtful person to hear what it sounds like, the questions you ask. I've seen the best CEOs seem to make it more conversational so they can genuinely get to know a person, less like a rigid interview. I don't know what your style is. I feel like it would be more conversational, but what's what does it sound like? What are you saying? What are you asking when you're with a senior leader who you may hire?

As it relates to pushing on these characteristics and trying to get some truth to emerge or some clarity to emerge, I will typically ask about a very challenging time in one of their more recent roles. And we'll usually get to one. What went wrong? Or what is the one thing when you look back, you can speak to was a real miss in decision-making for the company, or, you know, some version of that. And it depends on what the role is and what the level is. But I will work to get to a memory of a situation where they are honestly reflecting on, like, mistakes were made, lessons were learned. So we talk about that thing. And then I'll start to ask questions. One of my favorite groups of questions is this "if not for" question, because usually people will then tell you how they stood tall in those moments, how they helped those moments, how they led those moments. Of course, that's what they should be doing then. So what I'll ask is, well, what enabled you to do those great things in that tough moment? And then they'll tell me, I had access to this data, I had access to this team.

I had this incredible technical leader who was able to do X. And then I'll say, okay, if those people did not exist, if that resource did not exist, how would you have navigated that? Now, usually I'm doing two things. Often I'm talking to people who've been at companies that are much larger than ours, and I'm trying to get to, can you do the thing you're telling me you're great at doing with different and potentially fewer resources? And do you even have the humility to recognize how other people, resources, and teams contributed to your ability to have impact. So this, if not for, if not for that dataset, if not for that incredible PR team, if not for that incredible manufacturer, how would you have gone about it? What might you have done differently? And that, it's an onion, man. You just peel back the layers and you get deeper and deeper and you start to see, wow, okay, this person actually has No humility. No matter how I ask it, they have no ability to acknowledge that their success was in great part due to some critical factor. And I can even tell it in the story and they're not willing to.

Or the opposite, right? They, they really acknowledge how important, how powerful that was. And sometimes in that particular instance, they'll even say, and that is why if I join your company, this will be a critical role that I need. So it's, I'm looking for that humility and that curiosity, but then also courage and confidence. You know, if they say, oh, this was a terrible idea and everybody knew it and the CEO made the decision anyway, what did you do about it? Did you say anything?

Why not? Don't you like the people who start doing the job in the interview? So, Kat, if we're doing this, then we will absolutely need this person in this specific role. Or they even have people in mind they're gonna bring with them. I love it. Hiring. Leaders who have people that are that loyal to them, that believe in them. To me, that's a good sign. That's not a good old boys network or whatever. I like it when that happens, when they have those people and they start doing the job. They obviously thought about it before the interview. We're going to do this, and then we'll do this, and we'll do this. And it's legit. It's real.

Yeah. And the question, the situational path of questioning, if you focus on what are you really trying to understand, It is revealing. And I agree, if someone has the humility to acknowledge the enablers to their success and then even futurecast how that might be needed if they were in our company, of course, at that point, they probably don't know all the resources in our company. So I, I give grace for what they don't know. That's how I get at those particular characteristics. And then I, you know, reference checks as many as I can, and I ask similar questions. Things like, what does this person need to be successful? It is a very positive framing to get at what might someone lack or what might they require around them to be effective. And so you put all those data points together, and it's usually pretty accurate.

Yeah.

One of the elements that I think you are really good at, and have been for the past decade that I've known you, is— Scott Belsky would say you got to narrate the journey. You got to be a good storyteller. I mean, that's how you ended up at AG1. We just talked about that, being an incredible communicator on a podcast. As the CEO, as the person running the show, how important is it to you to continually get better as the narrator of the journey, as the storyteller, as going direct, right? You're doing that right now by going on podcasts. I'd love to hear, like, again, your overall philosophy on storytelling, communication, and CEOs being the narrator of the journey.

I mean, it's critical, right? Because the CEO and most top leaders, but certainly whoever is viewed as the most senior leader, sets the velocity. And the tone. And so while strong leaders within an organization also do that, certainly whoever is viewed as— whether it's the founder or the CEO who carries the most cultural weight— it's critical. But when I was listening to you ask the question, it's like, yes, it's so important to name the thing, narrate the journey, help people. One of the ways I I talk about this with the team is I tell them I'm often wondering how I can help answer the question, how should I think about this? We have a fully remote company. We're together often in work sprints and in regular meetings, but still it's fully remote. And so you have even less context, you have even less, fewer vibes, right? You're not together, so you don't feel the, the energy. And so if I were to send a note that says we're ending this particular line of products, or we're going to launch this product that we've said we were never gonna launch before, and now we are. It's a change, and it's a change that can disorient people.

So what I imagine is in many people's minds, that is subconscious, is the internal war of how should I think about this? Is it good? Is it bad? Is it because of something I did or not? Oh, that meeting, that leader was kind of tense. Is it because of me or or maybe their child is sick, right? This, how should I think about this? How should I think about this? So I believe leaders should think about the recipient's inner monolog, even if it's just this split second of how should I think about this? So I will start communications with, here's how I think about this. Here's how I think we should think about this. What is the opportunity? What is the lesson? What is the action? What does it mean? What is it indicative of? What is it not about? So when I think of narrating the journey, that particular area of focus is important to me and what came to mind when you asked the question. But the other thing that came to mind is when you have a great team, and I do, a phenomenal team, just all incredible in their own technical right, and who bring very different voices and opinions and styles to the table.

So sometimes the answer is to STFU, just be quiet and speak last, listen. And I've gotten that feedback. As my teams get stronger, there is more weight on the few things I say truly being needed and impactful and helpful. And leaving the space for other leaders to lead and architecting that. There were some meetings over time that I just said, I'm not gonna be in them anymore. Because of course I have a point of view, of course I have an opinion, of course I'm comfortable in my own skin and in my own company to like throw out whatever comes to mind. That may not be helpful or needed in that moment because I have such great leaders and the culture is strong and there's a deep understanding of what we're solving for and whose opinion we care about and and who we're doing something for. So I thought of those two things when you asked. One, this helping people answer the question, how should I think about this? Not just what is the clear message? Is it clear on what we're doing and why and what's next? But the context, how should I think about this?

Because that affects culture, that affects what people feel and think and do when few people are watching in the sidebar. Chats and conversations, and then alternatively being better at being quiet or being better at letting someone else set the tone. And now that's a lot of trust and a lot of responsibility in a leadership team, but that's certainly been the journey I've been on.

As you've grown, it's like the bigger you get, the more light that shines on you and the more opportunity for people to hate on you guys, specifically competitors. You know, this is part of the deal. And I saw on Twitter, Bryan Johnson, the Don't Die guy, like kind of went after you guys recently about some study or whatever without getting into the details. How does it go at your company when you get attacked like that by someone who's trying to sell their version of something that's not maybe a direct competitor but could be viewed that way because it technically is a supplement? How do you guys manage through things like that? Because he's got a big platform, he's got a lot of people that listen to him. It could potentially put a dent in you know, some things. How did you handle that?

I think about a few things. One, anytime there's criticism or questions that come often on the internet, the way I think about it is a few things. One, are there themes? Are there patterns? Is there something to pay attention to here that is reflective of questions of the industry? We're one of the largest in the space, so of course we're gonna be the tip of the spear for criticism in many cases. And you don't have to look far at many companies who have their share of criticism., but they're leaders in the space. Apple, Tesla, Nike, Lululemon. The list is very long of beloved brands that are market makers, leaders in category where you don't have to look very far to find someone who, you know, doesn't love what they do or how they do it, especially competitors, to your point. So I think of a few things. One is I always want our team to pay attention to real themes that we should be listening to that will help us get better. Sometimes there are criticisms of things that are like we already have the answer to, and we're already the shining bright example of things like human trial research, things like quality and certification, but maybe we're not doing a good enough job marketing it and communicating it and making it easy for people to see.

So in that regard, critique or competition makes us better because we have the capital, the scale, the customers, the brand, and the commitment to truly be the best. And so if something we're doing that's already the best in category, isn't coming through, we have to do a better job communicating that. So that's one. The second is this framing of what are the incentives and motivations. And certainly if someone is selling their own similar products and they're a challenger brand or a startup, look, it's a real playbook. How do you get attention in a world that is so difficult to cut through? Well, one way that's an effective playbook for many is to take a leader in a space and use that as the jumping-off point. We're like them, but better. We're like them, but cheaper. We're like them, but we have this ingredient. And so what you hope is that consumers that you are targeting will see that and see through it. And in fact, we hear that. We hear people say, oh, I saw an ad of someone comparing their product to yours, and they're clearly saying you're the leader, right? Of course, the comparison ads do a job.

And they work short-term, but they don't build credibility long-term. So first, pay attention to themes. What can we learn? What do we need to do better? Two is keep context in mind and incentives in mind. And if someone is selling a competitive product, they obviously have a reason to try to put a very negative angle on anyone else in the space. But the third is also this responsibility to make sure facts are out there, to your point, There are really well-followed creators out there. The algorithms reward dopamine hits and rage bait. And think about, you know this, you're a creator, right? Podcasts. What gets the most traction, the most, like, hyped clips and the headlines and the music and the cuts? And that's what gets us. And so that is both real and sad. And we have to recognize that something that is not true or that is a negative spin, can very quickly become widely seen or clicked on and sadly, maybe even believed because the critique or the rage bait may be brief and witty, but the explanation and the truth is long. So if someone says, "Oh, your product doesn't have research," it's like, "Uh, if you actually went to our website, we have more human trials on AG1 on a single SKU than any other multi-ingredient product, I believe, ever in the space.

We have 4 published human trials that prove benefits. We don't make claims without research-backed benefits. We're too big to get away with that. The smaller companies do. And so there are times where then you do need to say, hey, this is the truth. You try to get the shortest version of it out there. We're the most clinically studied multi-ingredient single SKU. Product out there. Here's the link, here's the proof, here's where to find it. And sometimes outright saying, that's not true. Or you're highlighting something and treating it as if it's X when it's really Y. I remember someone said something about one of our products a few years ago, and what they were saying about it wasn't even what the product is supposed to do. And so my line has always been, it's like criticizing a car for not taking you to the moon. Yes, it moves people, but that's not what it's supposed to do. So getting people riled up about a car that doesn't take you to the moon when that's not what it's supposed to do is kind of weird. But people can get riled up about a car that doesn't take you to the moon because somebody makes it kind of rage-baiting.

And so all of that, right, in terms of the team, you help people know how to think about this. You remind them of where the criticism comes from. Take any learnings to use it to make us better. And, and I will tell you though, that those types of creators or influencers who just repeat hypey negative spin without any factual backing, it does fuel us to keep leveling up our commitment and more and more research and more and more clinical rigor, even if it's not appreciated by the average consumer, even if it is not something that we will get rewarded for for years because it takes so much time to scope these trials and conduct them and then interpret them and then to be published. My gosh, it can be another 18 to 24 months, but we still do it, right? Because we're the best, we're the premium product. People pay to have like true quality, true bodies of research. And so it is our, in my opinion, it's our requirement. Maybe other companies don't view it as a requirement, but being the leader in the space, we've got another $20 million committed to research over the next 3 years.

We spent $10 million over the last few years, and it just continues to inform more product innovation, more product improvements, and more proof of what our product does. So you just, you know, you, you have to focus on your customer and focus on the facts and be very good at separating signal from noise and making sure the team is able to do the same.

Did you see how Sam Altman replied to the Anthropic ads? Did you see this? What do you think of that? Because he seemed to me— not trying to lead the witness, but he felt very defensive. And I agree, I love CEOs going direct like that. Like, I think that's good. I think that's That's one of the things you're really, really good at. But you could have gotten really defensive when that stuff came out and people are trying to hate on you. You didn't do any of that. And I saw Sam and I'm like, this guy's a really, really smart guy. He's obviously building something that's changing the world. And yet it seems very defensive of how he responded to Anthropic's ads and all that stuff.

You know what I think of in those moments is being a leader of big companies is incredibly complex. Yeah. And I am too effing busy to judge somebody's PR approach or their— Like, leave that to the experts, right? There are experts in comms and PR. I love hearing their reads and teardowns on these things, but I'm, like, in the arena, right? I'm making the stuff. I'm doing these things. And so, I can appreciate both the beauty and the brilliance of those ads. Baller, right, in some ways. I can appreciate the frustration all around, including from, from the companies that is like, but that's, that's not it. That's not what we are. That's not how we're doing it. And eventually it's like, you gotta focus on what matters, building your product, making it excellent, shipping, taste, design, quality, and being bigger than the noise. And yeah, if you know you're a leader and especially if you're in technology-oriented companies, you probably need to be very, very online and, very engaged in these matters. And sure, there's probably a way to be more brief, more witty, more humor-oriented, but we're all also humans, and you have a lot of employees and customers who depend on you.

Those moments will pass. In a year, nobody's going to think about it, right? You're just— less than that. Yeah, yeah, you just, you build your thing and I have a lot of heart for brilliant marketers who do great ads and who are controversial. And I have a lot of heart for leaders who are trying to shape very polarizing market-making companies. And I hope those leaders don't get too caught up in themselves or their ego or what they think they have to do to please other people more than they focus on just building good shit and getting it out in the world. That is the greatest answer to criticism, is just doing your thing. And it's really dangerous as a leader to get distracted with the social media chatter. It's real. We live our lives online, on X, on IG, right? It's real. It matters that you're aware of how people get their information and how they're feeling and what they're reacting to. I think it would be irresponsible to not pay attention, but there's also a dark side of getting distracted by it.

And the answer is to build. Love it. One more question, Kat, before we run. I'm curious, let's fast forward one year, and you can make this a personal or professional question, it's up to you. You, your husband, you're hanging out and you're popping bottles, champagne, you're celebrating.

I was like, that doesn't even sound like us, but okay.

I know.

Go with me for the question. He rose across oceans and runs 100-mile races.

I know. I know.

Okay. Anyway, go with me. Okay. Very few bottles being popped. You are celebrating with something.

This is called the champagne question, so you got to go. Okay.

All right. We're testing our AG1 or our AGZ.

Got it. Got it. Exactly. You're celebrating. It's 1 year from today. Yeah. What are we celebrating?

1 year from today, we are definitely celebrating my husband and his continued circumnavigation around the globe. So he is circumnavigating the globe on— with only human power. So he rode across the Atlantic Ocean in a tiny little rowboat. He rode across the Caribbean in the tiny little rowboat, almost died, had to get rescued. So now he's finishing that in a few weeks, and by next year he will have completed the first half of his Pacific row. So you cycle the continent, you row the oceans. And so a year from now, for our family, truly that will be the most special thing Wow. To celebrate. And then every year we have our 10-year wedding anniversary coming up this year. Um, we got married at Burning Man. We're bringing the kids to Burning Man for the first time. And that, that may be a continual thing depending on how they handle lay elements. So we'll probably be celebrating there as a family, something really special and unique that's unique to our family, that inspires our kids, that inspires me, that we get to be a tiny part of in supporting and enabling.

So, wow, that would be the thing.

You row in an ocean?

Like, not me, not you. He does. What's that?

Yeah, what is that boat like?

It's like 19 feet.

And he just rowing by himself? Uh, he's got a rowing partner, so he has rowed with different partners. He cycles with different buddies. Uh, it's very cool. He has come to appreciate it's not the race or the time, it's about the journey and who you row with and who you cycle with. So he's got a killer rowing partner who will finish rowing the Caribbean with him and who will likely row the Pacific with him, and a dear friend who's cycled the US with him and hopefully will cycle Australia with him once he makes that connection. And yeah.

You ever do it? You ever get in the boat or get on the bike?

No. That's not your thing? Nope. When we first met and he rode his first ocean, he rode across the Atlantic just 2 months after we met, and we got closer through the row. So I really wanted to do it. I mean, I got in the boat with him off the coast of La Gomera, which is off the coast of, like, Morocco and Spain. That's where the row started, to row across the Atlantic and then down to Antigua. It took him 45 days. And I was in the boat, and I'm like, "This is rad. I could do this." But that was December of 2015. And since then, we have a couple kids and have had a lot of life. And so, unfortunately, given that it can be dangerous, both cycling across continents, which is, to me, is more dangerous more dangerous than rowing the oceans, 'cause there's a lot more vehicles and interaction on a road crossing a continent than, you know, you row the ocean, you don't see very much. So, now that we have a family, those little inklings of, "Well, I could do this. I'd love to do it with you," are probably not in the cards.

Isn't that a great, though, story about life, and that's really what it's all about, is it's— Yes, the thing he's doing is amazing, but really what it's about is who. It's who we are doing these things with. It's the person you become as a result of doing the thing with the people you do it with. That's a beautiful metaphor for life in general.

It absolutely is. I mean, when he rowed the Atlantic, it was a race, and he and his rowing partner set the U.S. record for crossing the Atlantic as a pair. And it was speed, right? Like time, speed. And when he rowed the Caribbean and he had to be rescued, which they were also trying to just, like, get after it. And it was really tough for he and his rowing partner to be rescued, to be in such a dangerous situation. And I saw this reset in him because that weekend after he got rescued, he, you know, he reflected. He's like, why am I doing this? I have two kids. This is too dangerous. I shouldn't be doing this. And he made some joke about taking up golf or something. Like, you're never going to take up golf. And But we talked about the why and the evolving why. And this is his why, this type of global pursuit. Yeah, you have kids, certainly it's a little scarier and a little more sad to think of something happening that could impair that family unit. But it's also who he is. It's also what drives him. It is who I married.

I knew it from the beginning. And it's inspiring for the kids. And it makes him a better person when he's here, when he has that pursuit, when he has that thing he's training for. And so it was really cool to see him be kind of devastated and taken down by the events and then reground in his why to keep going. And they did. They— somebody on this little tiny island where they wrecked and got rescued gave them an anchor because their anchor had to be cut, gave them an anchor, and they were able to continue rowing, but appreciating the journey even more, appreciating each other even more, and And I felt even more in support of him as a result. And it sounds like a scary thing, and it is, but the boats are incredible. I trust his training. And again, cycling across a continent to me is much more dangerous. So, yeah, it's, it's beautiful. It's beautiful seeing him reground in, it's about the journey and who I do it with, seeing him reground in this is something I do for my family and the kids to be a a fulfilled person with pursuits, but sharing that with my kids.

And it's incredible. And he, you know, he's one of these people too. He doesn't talk about it a lot. He doesn't— he's not famous for it. He doesn't do big keynotes.

He doesn't—

he doesn't have a book. This is just his hobby. He's in venture by day. And so it's really very intimate and special. And if he completes it, and I believe he will over time, he'll be only the 4th person to have ever done it in the world. And that's really cool. Like, that's special to be able to enable something so unique. Wow.

I thought you were going to say, like, some revenue target, and I get such a better answer.

I'm really glad. We're already doing the things. You know, we launched AGZ. We're in retail. We have more retail launches. We have more human trials coming out. That's all going to continue. That's all going to continue. And I truly, I am so proud, and I will be so proud of all these things we're doing as a company. But that special family season that we're in is far bigger.

Yeah, well, it speaks to your priorities. I love it. Or the priority, uh, right? That's singular word. And I think that's really cool. It's not like you're not going to work like crazy to do a great job as the leader of your company. I love it. Kat, where would you send people to learn more about you and the company online?

DrinkAG1.com. Go to DrinkAG1.com/science and learn all about our research and science, like the real deal, not the theory hype out there. And, you know, on X, DrinkAG1, I'm Cat Cole ATL. I don't post a ton. I'm trying to be better at it because it is both my responsibility as a leader of the brand, but also something I enjoy doing and making more time to connect with people online. So people know they have a relationship and an understanding of the people in the company, not just the brand. So, you know, hit me up on X or IG or LinkedIn or any of those. I'm there.

Love it. Love it. Well, thanks again for being here. I would love— I mean, we're going to continue our dialog. Maybe we'll shrink the gap between the times we talk, but this is awesome. I really, really appreciate it. Look forward to continue talking as we go.

Awesome. Likewise. It is the end of the Podcast Club. Thank you for being a member of the End of the Podcast Club. If you are, send me a note, ryan@learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with one of my favorites, Kat Cole. A few takeaways from my notes: the must-have attributes in a leader she wants on her team— courage and confidence mixed equally with curiosity and humility. Need an equal balance of all four. How does she work to find if they have those? She asks about a very challenging time in a recent role and listens to them honestly reflect on when mistakes were made. Why? What did they learn from them? And then keep drilling down. I think that's what Kat is really good at, is asking great initial questions, listening, and asking even better follow-up questions. In fact, she would be an awesome podcast host if she ever chose to do that. And then Kat got the job at AG1 because the founder and CEO heard her on a few podcasts. As my friend and mentor Rex Caswell told me years ago, you are interviewing for your next job every single day.

You never know who's watching or listening. Show up with the intention to add value to others' lives, whether it's your Monday morning team meeting or on a giant podcast. Regardless, you are interviewing for your next job every single day. And then I loved her closing answer to the champagne question. She's the CEO of a billion-dollar company, and her first thought was about the incredible feat that her husband is striving to accomplish and celebrating as a family. And then the realization that of all these big things we are trying to do, it's about the person you become while striving for the big thing, and it's about the people people we choose to do them with. I love it. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Kat Cole. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts, you subscribe to the show and you rate it, hopefully 5 stars, and you write a thoughtful review by doing All of that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis, and for that, I will forever be grateful.

Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.